Dovetail Jigs

LOML has bought me a Porter Cable 4212 for Christmas. I'll let you
know after Christmas how I like it. I can't wait.

Dick Durbin

For the occasional dovetails that I make, I use a set of spacer blocks
on the router table. The blocks need to be accurately cut, but once
made will last forever. Cuts very nice joints for minimal investment in
time & takes up little space in a drawer.
Bugs

Pat Barber wrote:
> http://www.porter-cable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=5839
>
> Porter Cable makes some mighty fine tools including
> this one. "About" $140 on various sites.

Pat, Have you used this jig. I am getting one for Christmas.

Dick Durbin

I've beed considering the 4212, too -- since my favorite, the Akeda is
just too expensive. Pat, if you've used it, can you tell me how I might
do dust collection for it?


Pat Barber wrote:
> http://www.porter-cable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=5839
>
> Porter Cable makes some mighty fine tools including
> this one. "About" $140 on various sites.
>
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> > I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank. Any
> > suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
> >
> >

Thanks, Pat. However, I already have a PC 7519 and to buy another
router, I might as well just buy the more expensive Akeda jig which has
pretty good dust collection built in.

Or... I could craft my own for the PC jig. Something to think about...


Pat Barber wrote:
> Not much in the wau of DC for these jigs. I would suggest a
> router "with" DC which does a pretty fair job.
>
> Look at the PC 8529... that has a built-in dc at the base.
> That does a "fair" job but does not get it all...
>
>
> Never Enough Money wrote:
>
> > I've beed considering the 4212, too -- since my favorite, the Akeda is
> > just too expensive. Pat, if you've used it, can you tell me how I might
> > do dust collection for it?

Jimmy wrote:

> I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank.
> Any suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.

I have a Sears (yes, I know, shame on me) "Professional" jig that does half
blind and through dovetails and, with an additional template, two sizes of
box joints. Both together were less than $100 several years ago.

NOTE: The first thing you should do is make a copy of all the templates
with a pattern following router setup. DAMHIKT :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

On 12/18/2005 2:08 PM Mark & Juanita mumbled something about the followin=
g:
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:22:47 -0500, Odinn <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
>=20
>> On 12/18/2005 6:27 AM Jimmy mumbled something about the following:
>>> I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the ba=
nk. Any=20
>>> suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.=20
>>>
>>>
>> Stot's Template Master - make your own jigs of any size - $40
>>
>> http://www.stots.com/tm.htm
>=20
>=20
> Be warned though, in buying a stots, you are buying a product that
> supports the idea that EULA's can be extended beyond the software domai=
n to
> the physical domain as well. Take a look a the "user agreement" link o=
n
> that web page. Among the various things in that agreement (from the we=
b
> page, posted for critical comment):
>=20
> "Removing the seal from the product indicates your agreement to be boun=
d by
> the terms of the agreement. ("Agreement") printed in the User=92s Manua=
l. If
> you do not agree with the "Agreement", do not remove product seal and
> promptly return, this tool, package and the other items (written materi=
als
> and containers) to Stots Corporation for a full refund." =20
>=20
> Not having seen how the product is shipped, one would hope that the U=
ser
> manual is packaged separately so you can see to what you are agreeing
> before opening the package. Actually, reading below, this may not be t=
he
> case since they want the User Manual destroyed if you decide to termina=
te
> the user agreeement.
>=20
> More importantly:
>=20
> " You may not: a. allow individuals that did not purchase the original
> Product use the Product or any templates produced using the Product or
> Process described (without specific written permission from the Stots
> Corporation)" =20
>=20
> In other words, if your Father-in-law, son-in-law, or anybody else co=
mes
> over to your shop, you are breaking the license agreement if they happe=
n to
> use your jig or any of the jigs you create using the original jig.
>=20
> "You may: a. use the Product (or any of the working templates produced
> using the Product or Process) in only one shop by the original purchase=
r
> only; b. make one (1) copy of the instructions for backup purposes,
> provided that you reproduce all proprietary notices on the copy; and c.=
use
> the Process described in the instruction book (multiple US patents pend=
ing)
> only with the original Product provided with the instruction book."
>=20
> So, if you are a small shop and have several employees, only one of
> those employees are allowed by this license to use this jig. Not sure =
how
> this would be interpreted if you were to try to take this jig or any of=
the
> working templates produced with the jig (guess non-working templates ar=
e
> OK) to multiple job sites rather than only using them in your shop.
>=20
> Of course in typical EULA-ese style, all of the obligations are place=
d
> upon the purchaser while the seller disavows any responsibility for
> anything, anywhere, anytime beyond what you pay for the jig:=20
>=20
> "IN NO EVENT SHALL STOTS BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
> COLLATERAL, EXEMPLARY, CONSEQUENTIAL OR SPECIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES ARISI=
NG
> OUT OF YOUR PURCHASE AND USE OF THE PRODUCT OR OUT OF THE WARRANTY,
> INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATIONS LOSS OF USE, PROFITS, GOODWILL OR SAVINGS=
, OR
> LOSS OF WOOD CUT BY THE USER" =20
>=20
> ... and of course how you can terminate the license:
> " GENERAL=97You may terminate this licensee at any time by destroying =
the
> Product; templates produced using the Process, and all copies of the
> instruction book or by sending them to Stots. Stots may terminate this
> license if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of the Lice=
nse
> Agreement. Upon such termination, you agree to destroy or return the
> Product; templates produced using the Process, and all copies of the
> instruction book or by returning them to Stots. " =20
>=20
> Actually, upon looking at the above statement, this is even worse th=
an a
> standard software license. At least if I decided to terminate my Word,=

> Powerpoint, or Excel license, I would not be expected to delete any Wor=
d,
> Powerpoint, or Excel document templates that designed using the licens=
ed
> software. Or for other software, I wouldn't be expected to delete any =
of
> the files created by that other software. Further, I wouldn't be requi=
red
> to destroy the software manuals because I had stopped using the softwar=
e.
>=20
> If you are comfortable with helping support the idea that products sh=
ould
> be licensed rather than purchased, then by all means have at it.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------+
> =
=20
> If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
> =
=20
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------+

For those of us doing woodworking as a hobby, it's not that much of an=20
issue. Any production shop would probably have some specialty dovetail=20
making machine that is more precise and quicker than even a Leigh or any =

other "Professional" jigs.

It's not asking you to destroy anything you built using the templates,=20
only the templates themselves.

If you terminate your word or excel agreement, you cannot use the=20
templates to create new documents. The documents/drawers/cabinets/etc.=20
are the end product, the templates are intermediary.

--=20
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 04:39:55 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message > While one would
>like to make that comment and treat EULA's as something
>> ot be ignored, there is certainly the chance (as in the current music
>> downloading pogrom) that someone may decide to attempt to enforce those
>> EULA's and make an example of someone they believe to be infringing said
>> EULA. Thus far, there is little precedent regarding the legality of some
>> of these EULA's, but one doesn't want to have to be the guinea pig
>> defending oneself against some jack-booted thugs from some enforcement
>> organization if it can be avoided.
>>
>You're are the last one I expected to advocate the "lube it up and bend
>over" approach.
>

Not sure I'm advocating that so much as advocating for sending the
message that this kind of approach to sales is so far out of the mainstream
that buyers should stay away in droves. i.e., don't patronize the
businesses that take this kind of Draconian approach to their sales. There
*are* other jigs out there that will do what the OP is requesting without
his having to waive all of his rights by the mere act of opening a package.
Bottom line, the more people who don't do business with this kind of
entity, the less likely others are going to be to follow down this path.
Simply ignoring the EULA still produces a sale for the jig maker, violating
the EULA provides a possible additional revenue stream for the jig maker,
not using or buying the jig denies both revenue streams.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Robatoy (in [email protected]) said:

| Bell Sympatico randomly decided to omit your work this time from
| the newsgroup. Can I talk you into e-mailing a snap to me? Just
| lose the BULL from my addy.

You have mail!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

It's BS. Ignore it.

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:22:47 -0500, Odinn <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On 12/18/2005 6:27 AM Jimmy mumbled something about the following:
> >> I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the
bank. Any
> >> suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Stot's Template Master - make your own jigs of any size - $40
> >
> >http://www.stots.com/tm.htm
>
>
> Be warned though, in buying a stots, you are buying a product that
> supports the idea that EULA's can be extended beyond the software domain
to
> the physical domain as well. Take a look a the "user agreement" link on
> that web page. Among the various things in that agreement (from the web
> page, posted for critical comment):
>
> "Removing the seal from the product indicates your agreement to be bound
by
> the terms of the agreement. ("Agreement") printed in the User's Manual. If
> you do not agree with the "Agreement", do not remove product seal and
> promptly return, this tool, package and the other items (written materials
> and containers) to Stots Corporation for a full refund."
>
> Not having seen how the product is shipped, one would hope that the User
> manual is packaged separately so you can see to what you are agreeing
> before opening the package. Actually, reading below, this may not be the
> case since they want the User Manual destroyed if you decide to terminate
> the user agreeement.
>
> More importantly:
>
> " You may not: a. allow individuals that did not purchase the original
> Product use the Product or any templates produced using the Product or
> Process described (without specific written permission from the Stots
> Corporation)"
>
> In other words, if your Father-in-law, son-in-law, or anybody else comes
> over to your shop, you are breaking the license agreement if they happen
to
> use your jig or any of the jigs you create using the original jig.
>
> "You may: a. use the Product (or any of the working templates produced
> using the Product or Process) in only one shop by the original purchaser
> only; b. make one (1) copy of the instructions for backup purposes,
> provided that you reproduce all proprietary notices on the copy; and c.
use
> the Process described in the instruction book (multiple US patents
pending)
> only with the original Product provided with the instruction book."
>
> So, if you are a small shop and have several employees, only one of
> those employees are allowed by this license to use this jig. Not sure how
> this would be interpreted if you were to try to take this jig or any of
the
> working templates produced with the jig (guess non-working templates are
> OK) to multiple job sites rather than only using them in your shop.
>
> Of course in typical EULA-ese style, all of the obligations are placed
> upon the purchaser while the seller disavows any responsibility for
> anything, anywhere, anytime beyond what you pay for the jig:
>
> "IN NO EVENT SHALL STOTS BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
> COLLATERAL, EXEMPLARY, CONSEQUENTIAL OR SPECIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES ARISING
> OUT OF YOUR PURCHASE AND USE OF THE PRODUCT OR OUT OF THE WARRANTY,
> INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATIONS LOSS OF USE, PROFITS, GOODWILL OR SAVINGS,
OR
> LOSS OF WOOD CUT BY THE USER"
>
> ... and of course how you can terminate the license:
> " GENERAL-You may terminate this licensee at any time by destroying the
> Product; templates produced using the Process, and all copies of the
> instruction book or by sending them to Stots. Stots may terminate this
> license if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of the License
> Agreement. Upon such termination, you agree to destroy or return the
> Product; templates produced using the Process, and all copies of the
> instruction book or by returning them to Stots. "
>
> Actually, upon looking at the above statement, this is even worse than
a
> standard software license. At least if I decided to terminate my Word,
> Powerpoint, or Excel license, I would not be expected to delete any Word,
> Powerpoint, or Excel document templates that designed using the licensed
> software. Or for other software, I wouldn't be expected to delete any of
> the files created by that other software. Further, I wouldn't be required
> to destroy the software manuals because I had stopped using the software.
>
> If you are comfortable with helping support the idea that products
should
> be licensed rather than purchased, then by all means have at it.
>
>
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
>
> If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:22:47 -0500, Odinn <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 12/18/2005 6:27 AM Jimmy mumbled something about the following:
>> I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank. Any
>> suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
>>
>>
>
>Stot's Template Master - make your own jigs of any size - $40
>
>http://www.stots.com/tm.htm


Be warned though, in buying a stots, you are buying a product that
supports the idea that EULA's can be extended beyond the software domain to
the physical domain as well. Take a look a the "user agreement" link on
that web page. Among the various things in that agreement (from the web
page, posted for critical comment):

"Removing the seal from the product indicates your agreement to be bound by
the terms of the agreement. ("Agreement") printed in the User’s Manual. If
you do not agree with the "Agreement", do not remove product seal and
promptly return, this tool, package and the other items (written materials
and containers) to Stots Corporation for a full refund."

Not having seen how the product is shipped, one would hope that the User
manual is packaged separately so you can see to what you are agreeing
before opening the package. Actually, reading below, this may not be the
case since they want the User Manual destroyed if you decide to terminate
the user agreeement.

More importantly:

" You may not: a. allow individuals that did not purchase the original
Product use the Product or any templates produced using the Product or
Process described (without specific written permission from the Stots
Corporation)"

In other words, if your Father-in-law, son-in-law, or anybody else comes
over to your shop, you are breaking the license agreement if they happen to
use your jig or any of the jigs you create using the original jig.

"You may: a. use the Product (or any of the working templates produced
using the Product or Process) in only one shop by the original purchaser
only; b. make one (1) copy of the instructions for backup purposes,
provided that you reproduce all proprietary notices on the copy; and c. use
the Process described in the instruction book (multiple US patents pending)
only with the original Product provided with the instruction book."

So, if you are a small shop and have several employees, only one of
those employees are allowed by this license to use this jig. Not sure how
this would be interpreted if you were to try to take this jig or any of the
working templates produced with the jig (guess non-working templates are
OK) to multiple job sites rather than only using them in your shop.

Of course in typical EULA-ese style, all of the obligations are placed
upon the purchaser while the seller disavows any responsibility for
anything, anywhere, anytime beyond what you pay for the jig:

"IN NO EVENT SHALL STOTS BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
COLLATERAL, EXEMPLARY, CONSEQUENTIAL OR SPECIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES ARISING
OUT OF YOUR PURCHASE AND USE OF THE PRODUCT OR OUT OF THE WARRANTY,
INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATIONS LOSS OF USE, PROFITS, GOODWILL OR SAVINGS, OR
LOSS OF WOOD CUT BY THE USER"

... and of course how you can terminate the license:
" GENERAL—You may terminate this licensee at any time by destroying the
Product; templates produced using the Process, and all copies of the
instruction book or by sending them to Stots. Stots may terminate this
license if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of the License
Agreement. Upon such termination, you agree to destroy or return the
Product; templates produced using the Process, and all copies of the
instruction book or by returning them to Stots. "

Actually, upon looking at the above statement, this is even worse than a
standard software license. At least if I decided to terminate my Word,
Powerpoint, or Excel license, I would not be expected to delete any Word,
Powerpoint, or Excel document templates that designed using the licensed
software. Or for other software, I wouldn't be expected to delete any of
the files created by that other software. Further, I wouldn't be required
to destroy the software manuals because I had stopped using the software.

If you are comfortable with helping support the idea that products should
be licensed rather than purchased, then by all means have at it.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

How many people are going to read the thing? How many are going to care?
Advocating not buying the thing just puts you in a position of not buying
much as more and more companies THINK that they can run your life and
dictate law. I can just see the end result of all this, some company will
start sending junk mail stating " buy removing this ad from your mailbox,
you agree to turn over your house to our company at our discretion". This
could go further. Printed on the back of your birth certificate: "By the act
of being born, you agree to work for our company for a period of forty years
from your eighteenth birthday. You also agree that terms and conditions of
this employment are left completely up to the company".

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >You're are the last one I expected to advocate the "lube it up and bend
> >over" approach.
> >
>
> Not sure I'm advocating that so much as advocating for sending the
> message that this kind of approach to sales is so far out of the
mainstream
> that buyers should stay away in droves. i.e., don't patronize the
> businesses that take this kind of Draconian approach to their sales.
There
> *are* other jigs out there that will do what the OP is requesting without
> his having to waive all of his rights by the mere act of opening a
package.
> Bottom line, the more people who don't do business with this kind of
> entity, the less likely others are going to be to follow down this path.
> Simply ignoring the EULA still produces a sale for the jig maker,
violating
> the EULA provides a possible additional revenue stream for the jig maker,
> not using or buying the jig denies both revenue streams.
>
>
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
>
> If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

> 100%. The OP never mentioned handcut dovetails. A completely different
> process.

The OP never mentioned machine cut dovetails. Here's what he said:

[I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the
bank. Any suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.]

Perhaps you are not aware that jigs are available for hand cut dovetails?
See this page cited by Will:

<http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41718&cat=1,42884>


>
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:Luupf.14078$l25.7831@trnddc03...
>> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > You mean it became off topic immediately.
>>
>> Only by 50%.
>>
>> >
>> > "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:fqspf.9846$aU4.8801@trnddc06...
>> >> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > At what point in this thread did the OP ask advise on hand
>> >> > cutting dovetails?
>> >> >
>> >> > "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> >> > message news:yZnpf.4979$vJ4.4969@trnddc07...
>> >> >> If you do them Frank's way, you don't need the templates. See
>> October
>> >> >> Popular Woodworking.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> He didn't. It branched immediately.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>

Mark & Juanita wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 04:39:55 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message > While one =
would
>>like to make that comment and treat EULA's as something
>>
>>>ot be ignored, there is certainly the chance (as in the current music
>>>downloading pogrom) that someone may decide to attempt to enforce thos=
e
>>>EULA's and make an example of someone they believe to be infringing sa=
id
>>>EULA. Thus far, there is little precedent regarding the legality of s=
ome
>>>of these EULA's, but one doesn't want to have to be the guinea pig
>>>defending oneself against some jack-booted thugs from some enforcement=

>>>organization if it can be avoided.
>>>
>>
>>You're are the last one I expected to advocate the "lube it up and bend=

>>over" approach.
>>
>=20
>=20
> Not sure I'm advocating that so much as advocating for sending the
> message that this kind of approach to sales is so far out of the mainst=
ream
> that buyers should stay away in droves. i.e., don't patronize the
> businesses that take this kind of Draconian approach to their sales. T=
here
> *are* other jigs out there that will do what the OP is requesting witho=
ut
> his having to waive all of his rights by the mere act of opening a pack=
age.
> Bottom line, the more people who don't do business with this kind of
> entity, the less likely others are going to be to follow down this path=
=2E
> Simply ignoring the EULA still produces a sale for the jig maker, viola=
ting
> the EULA provides a possible additional revenue stream for the jig make=
r,
> not using or buying the jig denies both revenue streams. =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------+
> =
=20
> If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
> =
=20
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------+


Mark:

Have to agree with you. Having written many software agreements like=20
this, I find this one to be crap when it restricts your ability to build =

for someone else within your shop. I am not talking about giving things=20
away to other people and breaking a reasonable agreement btw... I find=20
this one too restrictive and hence unreasonable. Why break an agreement=20
when you can buy something else just as good? To me this would be a=20
product of last resort due to the agreement.


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

You mean it became off topic immediately.

"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:fqspf.9846$aU4.8801@trnddc06...
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > At what point in this thread did the OP ask advise on hand cutting
> > dovetails?
> >
> > "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:yZnpf.4979$vJ4.4969@trnddc07...
> >> If you do them Frank's way, you don't need the templates. See October
> >> Popular Woodworking.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> He didn't. It branched immediately.

At what point in this thread did the OP ask advise on hand cutting
dovetails?

"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:yZnpf.4979$vJ4.4969@trnddc07...
> If you do them Frank's way, you don't need the templates. See October
> Popular Woodworking.
>

http://www.porter-cable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=5839

Porter Cable makes some mighty fine tools including
this one. "About" $140 on various sites.

Jimmy wrote:

> I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank. Any
> suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
>
>

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

> You mean it became off topic immediately.

Only by 50%.

>
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:fqspf.9846$aU4.8801@trnddc06...
>> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > At what point in this thread did the OP ask advise on hand cutting
>> > dovetails?
>> >
>> > "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:yZnpf.4979$vJ4.4969@trnddc07...
>> >> If you do them Frank's way, you don't need the templates. See
October
>> >> Popular Woodworking.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> He didn't. It branched immediately.
>
>
>

Not much in the wau of DC for these jigs. I would suggest a
router "with" DC which does a pretty fair job.

Look at the PC 8529... that has a built-in dc at the base.
That does a "fair" job but does not get it all...


Never Enough Money wrote:

> I've beed considering the 4212, too -- since my favorite, the Akeda is
> just too expensive. Pat, if you've used it, can you tell me how I might
> do dust collection for it?

On 12/18/2005 9:13 PM Mark & Juanita mumbled something about the following:
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:23:51 -0500, Odinn <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/18/2005 2:08 PM Mark & Juanita mumbled something about the following:
>>> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:22:47 -0500, Odinn <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/18/2005 6:27 AM Jimmy mumbled something about the following:
>>>>> I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank. Any
>>>>> suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Stot's Template Master - make your own jigs of any size - $40
>>>>
>>>> http://www.stots.com/tm.htm
> .... snip
>> For those of us doing woodworking as a hobby, it's not that much of an
>> issue. Any production shop would probably have some specialty dovetail
>> making machine that is more precise and quicker than even a Leigh or any
>> other "Professional" jigs.
>>
>>> Actually, upon looking at the above statement, this is even worse than a
>>> standard software license. At least if I decided to terminate my Word,
>>> Powerpoint, or Excel license, I would not be expected to delete any Word,
>>> Powerpoint, or Excel document templates that designed using the licensed
>>> software. Or for other software, I wouldn't be expected to delete any of
>>> the files created by that other software. Further, I wouldn't be required
>>> to destroy the software manuals because I had stopped using the software.
>> It's not asking you to destroy anything you built using the templates,
>> only the templates themselves.
>>
>> If you terminate your word or excel agreement, you cannot use the
>> templates to create new documents. The documents/drawers/cabinets/etc.
>> are the end product, the templates are intermediary.
>
> Ah, that's why I deliberately chose the Word, Powerpoint or Excel
> *templates* for my analogy. I most certainly can use those templates in
> other software capable of reading Word, Powerpoint, or Excel such as
> OpenOffice, or some of the other less popular commercial packages such as
> IBM's Lotus suite or Borland's suite to create other new documents based
> upon those formats and templates. This *would* be analagous to the
> templates made with the Stot's jig.
>
> I understand that Stot's line of reasoning is that one can use the Stot's
> jig to reproduce the Stot's jig, thus the draconian approach to attempting
> to license rather than sell a tool was taken in order to prevent this from
> happening. The problem is that this tramples the "right of first sale"
> doctrine common with commercial transactions. In the extreme, one could
> extend the Stot's approach to absurdity, such as licensing metal-working
> lathes since one can use a metalworking lathe to produce a metal-working
> lathe.
>
> I don't know what the proper approach for protecting Stot's intellectual
> property is, other than pricing the jig such that copying it would be
> economically silly. I certainly don't believe that trying to apply
> software licensing methodology to physical items is the right way to go.

So, what other jig making template exists that you can use a Stot's jig
with? There is no comparison.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Jimmy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank.
>>Any suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
>
>
> Good ones can be had for less than $100. Now if you want good and
> veritable you may have to spend 3 to $400.
> Typically the common cheaper ones will do a good job however they are only
> designed to do Blind Dove Tails. IMHO these are harder to do than Through
> Dove Tails as the router bit setting has to be perfectly set in depth.
> This is true on cheap and expensive traditional stile DT jigs.
>
> Other than that, Leigh and PC make the better multi purpose jigs.
>I see Rockler has one for $99 that will do both. Has anyone used this jig?
>Sounds like a decent jig.
Thanks for the advice.

"Jimmy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank.
>Any suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.


Good ones can be had for less than $100. Now if you want good and veritable
you may have to spend 3 to $400.
Typically the common cheaper ones will do a good job however they are only
designed to do Blind Dove Tails. IMHO these are harder to do than Through
Dove Tails as the router bit setting has to be perfectly set in depth. This
is true on cheap and expensive traditional stile DT jigs.

Other than that, Leigh and PC make the better multi purpose jigs.

Mark & Juanita (in [email protected]) said:

| On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 04:39:55 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
|
|| "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message > While
|| one would like to make that comment and treat EULA's as something
||| ot be ignored, there is certainly the chance (as in the current
||| music downloading pogrom) that someone may decide to attempt to
||| enforce those EULA's and make an example of someone they believe
||| to be infringing said EULA. Thus far, there is little precedent
||| regarding the legality of some of these EULA's, but one doesn't
||| want to have to be the guinea pig defending oneself against some
||| jack-booted thugs from some enforcement organization if it can be
||| avoided.
|||
|| You're are the last one I expected to advocate the "lube it up and
|| bend over" approach.
|
| Not sure I'm advocating that so much as advocating for sending the
| message that this kind of approach to sales is so far out of the
| mainstream that buyers should stay away in droves. i.e., don't
| patronize the businesses that take this kind of Draconian approach
| to their sales. There *are* other jigs out there that will do what
| the OP is requesting without his having to waive all of his rights
| by the mere act of opening a package. Bottom line, the more people
| who don't do business with this kind of entity, the less likely
| others are going to be to follow down this path. Simply ignoring
| the EULA still produces a sale for the jig maker, violating the
| EULA provides a possible additional revenue stream for the jig
| maker, not using or buying the jig denies both revenue streams.

The agreement stuck in my craw, too. On the other hand, there's
nothing to stop anyone from designing their own jig template - and if
there's anyone who'd care to do so and send me a DXF, I'd be pleased
to produce and distribute it inexpensively (with _no_ license
agreement)...

Any takers?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

In article <[email protected]>,
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Morris Dovey (in [email protected]) said:
>
> | ...there's nothing to stop anyone from designing their own jig
> template.
>
> And today I used my shop-built jig to produce my first half blind
> dovetails. Photo of the result on
> news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking under "Half Blind".
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Bell Sympatico randomly decided to omit your work this time from the
newsgroup. Can I talk you into e-mailing a snap to me? Just lose the
BULL from my addy.

Thankeee, Morris.

In article <[email protected]>,
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Robatoy (in [email protected]) said:
>
> | Bell Sympatico randomly decided to omit your work this time from
> | the newsgroup. Can I talk you into e-mailing a snap to me? Just
> | lose the BULL from my addy.
>
> You have mail!

Indeed. Thank you.

(I am still working on the servo vs stepper debate <G>)

On 18/12/2005 12:29 PM, WillR wrote:

> ...
> It takes less practice than with the router. And I have been able to get
> many dovetails with almost invisible seams.
>
> And any day real soon I will be able to use my shop for something more
> than base molding and window trim. sigh!

You dovetail your base molding and window trim?? I'm impressed :)

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

> At what point in this thread did the OP ask advise on hand cutting
> dovetails?
>
> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:yZnpf.4979$vJ4.4969@trnddc07...
>> If you do them Frank's way, you don't need the templates. See October
>> Popular Woodworking.
>>
>
>
>

He didn't. It branched immediately.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:29:52 -0500, WillR <[email protected]> wrote:

Re: Hand cut dovetails

>I already had the chisels...

But if you had not already had the chisels, what chisels are needed?

Ricky

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:27:00 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Jimmy" <[email protected]> quickly quoth:

>I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank. Any
>suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.

"Dovetail a Drawer" by Frank Klausz. DVD or VHS, $19.95 retail,
available from $13 and change if you look around.

There's one for $0.99 (with reserve) on eBay right now.
www.woodzone.com has them for $18.95 + $2.95 s/h
www.amazon.com reseller has one for $17.74 + $3.49 s/h

Learn to dovetail by hand and you'll never need a jig.

--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

Morris Dovey (in [email protected]) said:

| ...there's nothing to stop anyone from designing their own jig
template.

And today I used my shop-built jig to produce my first half blind
dovetails. Photo of the result on
news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking under "Half Blind".

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:39:25 -0600, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Morris Dovey (in [email protected]) said:
>
>| ...there's nothing to stop anyone from designing their own jig
>template.
>
>And today I used my shop-built jig to produce my first half blind
>dovetails. Photo of the result on
>news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking under "Half Blind".

Do you have a picture of the jig? Did I misread that you used the jig to
handcut the dovetails?



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:27:00 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
> "Jimmy" <[email protected]> quickly quoth:
>=20
>=20
>>I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank=
=2E Any=20
>>suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.=20
>=20
>=20
> "Dovetail a Drawer" by Frank Klausz. DVD or VHS, $19.95 retail,
> available from $13 and change if you look around.=20
>=20
> There's one for $0.99 (with reserve) on eBay right now.
> www.woodzone.com has them for $18.95 + $2.95 s/h
> www.amazon.com reseller has one for $17.74 + $3.49 s/h
>=20
> Learn to dovetail by hand and you'll never need a jig.
>=20

Have to agree with you. Saved myself over $400 -- had to buy a dovetail=20
saw and the templates from lee valley though...

All the dovetail stuff...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/Search.aspx?c=3D2&action=3Dn

My el cheapo stuff -- which works fine.

About $30 and you are in business...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3D2&p=3D49424&cat=3D1,42936,502=
98
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3D2&p=3D41718&cat=3D1,42884

I already had the chisels...

It takes less practice than with the router. And I have been able to get =

many dovetails with almost invisible seams.

And any day real soon I will be able to use my shop for something more=20
than base molding and window trim. sigh!


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

On 12/18/2005 6:27 AM Jimmy mumbled something about the following:
> I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank. Any
> suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
>
>

Stot's Template Master - make your own jigs of any size - $40

http://www.stots.com/tm.htm

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

100%. The OP never mentioned handcut dovetails. A completely different
process.

"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Luupf.14078$l25.7831@trnddc03...
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > You mean it became off topic immediately.
>
> Only by 50%.
>
> >
> > "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:fqspf.9846$aU4.8801@trnddc06...
> >> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > At what point in this thread did the OP ask advise on hand cutting
> >> > dovetails?
> >> >
> >> > "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > news:yZnpf.4979$vJ4.4969@trnddc07...
> >> >> If you do them Frank's way, you don't need the templates. See
> October
> >> >> Popular Woodworking.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> He didn't. It branched immediately.
> >
> >
> >
>

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:23:51 -0500, Odinn <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 12/18/2005 2:08 PM Mark & Juanita mumbled something about the following:
>> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:22:47 -0500, Odinn <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/18/2005 6:27 AM Jimmy mumbled something about the following:
>>>> I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the bank. Any
>>>> suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Stot's Template Master - make your own jigs of any size - $40
>>>
>>> http://www.stots.com/tm.htm
>>
... snip
>
>For those of us doing woodworking as a hobby, it's not that much of an
>issue. Any production shop would probably have some specialty dovetail
>making machine that is more precise and quicker than even a Leigh or any
>other "Professional" jigs.
>
>> Actually, upon looking at the above statement, this is even worse than a
>> standard software license. At least if I decided to terminate my Word,
>> Powerpoint, or Excel license, I would not be expected to delete any Word,
>> Powerpoint, or Excel document templates that designed using the licensed
>> software. Or for other software, I wouldn't be expected to delete any of
>> the files created by that other software. Further, I wouldn't be required
>> to destroy the software manuals because I had stopped using the software.
>
>It's not asking you to destroy anything you built using the templates,
>only the templates themselves.
>
>If you terminate your word or excel agreement, you cannot use the
>templates to create new documents. The documents/drawers/cabinets/etc.
>are the end product, the templates are intermediary.

Ah, that's why I deliberately chose the Word, Powerpoint or Excel
*templates* for my analogy. I most certainly can use those templates in
other software capable of reading Word, Powerpoint, or Excel such as
OpenOffice, or some of the other less popular commercial packages such as
IBM's Lotus suite or Borland's suite to create other new documents based
upon those formats and templates. This *would* be analagous to the
templates made with the Stot's jig.

I understand that Stot's line of reasoning is that one can use the Stot's
jig to reproduce the Stot's jig, thus the draconian approach to attempting
to license rather than sell a tool was taken in order to prevent this from
happening. The problem is that this tramples the "right of first sale"
doctrine common with commercial transactions. In the extreme, one could
extend the Stot's approach to absurdity, such as licensing metal-working
lathes since one can use a metalworking lathe to produce a metal-working
lathe.

I don't know what the proper approach for protecting Stot's intellectual
property is, other than pricing the jig such that copying it would be
economically silly. I certainly don't believe that trying to apply
software licensing methodology to physical items is the right way to go.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:23:45 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:


>"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:22:47 -0500, Odinn <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >On 12/18/2005 6:27 AM Jimmy mumbled something about the following:
>> >> I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the
>bank. Any
>> >> suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >Stot's Template Master - make your own jigs of any size - $40
>> >
>> >http://www.stots.com/tm.htm
>>
>>
>> Be warned though, in buying a stots, you are buying a product that
>> supports the idea that EULA's can be extended beyond the software domain
>to
>> the physical domain as well. Take a look a the "user agreement" link on
>> that web page. Among the various things in that agreement (from the web
>> page, posted for critical comment):
... snip
>
>It's BS. Ignore it.

While one would like to make that comment and treat EULA's as something
ot be ignored, there is certainly the chance (as in the current music
downloading pogrom) that someone may decide to attempt to enforce those
EULA's and make an example of someone they believe to be infringing said
EULA. Thus far, there is little precedent regarding the legality of some
of these EULA's, but one doesn't want to have to be the guinea pig
defending oneself against some jack-booted thugs from some enforcement
organization if it can be avoided.



>


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Mark & Juanita (in [email protected]) said:

| On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:39:25 -0600, "Morris Dovey"
| <[email protected]> wrote:
|
|| Morris Dovey (in [email protected]) said:
||
||| ...there's nothing to stop anyone from designing their own jig
||| template.
||
|| And today I used my shop-built jig to produce my first half blind
|| dovetails. Photo of the result on
|| news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking under "Half Blind".
|
| Do you have a picture of the jig? Did I misread that you used the
| jig to handcut the dovetails?

Yes, I do - and yes, you did. :-)

There're photos of the jig at the link below. The "template" is a pair
of part programs (one for tails and one for pins) that take angle,
height, width, displacement of each tail from the edge of the board,
bit diameter, and depth of cut as parameters to produce common,
half-blind, and non-mitered full-blind dovetail joints using only a
straight bit.

For the dovetails in the picture I used a 1/8" 3-flute center-cutting
end mill (because I didn't have a suitable router bit) at 16K RPM and
fed at 90"/min. If I'd used a smaller bit (say, 1/32") both the inside
and outside corners would have appeared "sharp" instead of "rounded".

I absolutely guarantee that I totally lack the skills to cut that
joint by hand to produce an exact fit - and I have nothing but
admiration for people with that kind of skill (and eyesight!)

Fortunately, it's sometimes possible to substitute one skill for
another...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/cnc_joinery.html

You're are the last one I expected to advocate the "lube it up and bend
over" approach.

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message > While one would
like to make that comment and treat EULA's as something
> ot be ignored, there is certainly the chance (as in the current music
> downloading pogrom) that someone may decide to attempt to enforce those
> EULA's and make an example of someone they believe to be infringing said
> EULA. Thus far, there is little precedent regarding the legality of some
> of these EULA's, but one doesn't want to have to be the guinea pig
> defending oneself against some jack-booted thugs from some enforcement
> organization if it can be avoided.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
>
> If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
>
>
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

WillR <[email protected]> wrote:

> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:27:00 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
>> "Jimmy" <[email protected]> quickly quoth:
>>
>>
>>>I want to purchase a good dovetail jig but don't want to break the
>>>bank
> . Any
>>>suggestions and recommendations about sizes, etc. needed.
>>
>>
>> "Dovetail a Drawer" by Frank Klausz. DVD or VHS, $19.95 retail,
>> available from $13 and change if you look around.
>>
>> There's one for $0.99 (with reserve) on eBay right now.
>> www.woodzone.com has them for $18.95 + $2.95 s/h
>> www.amazon.com reseller has one for $17.74 + $3.49 s/h
>>
>> Learn to dovetail by hand and you'll never need a jig.
>>
>
> Have to agree with you. Saved myself over $400 -- had to buy a
> dovetail saw and the templates from lee valley though...

If you do them Frank's way, you don't need the templates. See October
Popular Woodworking.