I have done maybe 20 biscuit joined panels with a PC557. Typically over a
4' length, with 7 biscuits, there are a couple inches with a 1/16"
difference, and maybe a foot with a 1/32" difference. It takes a few
minutes with 80 grit to get them even. That is on the good side; the
backside can be much worse and take much longer to get even, if I bother. I
suppose the back would be better if I planed the wood, but unless it is
critical I just use the lumberyard's S2S, since no one will see it anyhow.
Is that typical, or should I be getting better results? If the latter, any
tips?
"toller" wrote in message
> I appreciate everyone's input, and have a preliminary answer.
>
> Tonight I glued a 3/4" back lip onto a 51" long shelf, with 6 biscuits. I
> didn't expect it to work very well because the wood was too narrow to
really
> get the guide flat; but since the defect would be on the back, I didn't
much
> care.
>
> It came out perfectly, despite horrible technique; if not for the pencil
> marks I could skip sanding. The difference was that both surfaces came
from
> my tablesaw rather than the lumberyard's planer; so they were pretty
> straight.
>
> This settles it for me, my problem is inadequately flat wood.
Your description of "there are a couple inches with a 1/16" difference, and
maybe a foot with a 1/32" difference".sounded pretty much like your stock
would be the first place to check, IME.
I've got a similar situation/problem coming up with some S2S 3/4 walnut that
someone gave me ... much of it is simply not flat enough and there is not
enough material to mill flat and still end up with stock a suitable
thickness for many of the type of projects I do.
In this case, and because it was free I can spend the time to do it, my
solution is going to have to be to laminate pieces, then joint and plane to
desired thickness.
Arguments can rage about whether you need a jointer and planer, but they are
a tough combination to beat when it comes to making it easy to do the best
work of which you are capable.
good luck ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
Dave W wrote:
> HI Toller,
> I have had much the same result with biscuits. Best panel
results for
> me have been with heavy cauls above and below the panel. The
biscuits get
> me close but the cauls pull everything into place. If the boards are
planed
> before joining, there should be only minute differences between
adjacent
> boards.
> Dave
Ditto. Mill your stock to be even thickness and edges as square as
possible.
I see gluing up panels as a process of successive approximation. The
biscuits keep
you converging toward a flat panel as you glue and assemble. The
certainly keep things
falling apart for multi-piece glue ups. Biscuits will not, IME
guarantee a flat panel
at the end of the day. I prefer cauls about every 18" along a glue up.
Biscuits are nice
but they are only an adjunct to good stock preparation and good
clamping.
hex
-30-
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike Marlow" wrote in message
>
> >Your jumped to conclusion, while appropriate at a different point
> > in considering the project as a whole, is completely irrelevant to the
> OP's
> > problem.
>
> Apparently not ...
Didn't he say he ripped the edge of the board? On his table saw?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> Really gets your goat that you're _still_ batting zero after all your
> "yabut" attempts on various subjects the last few months, doesn't it?
I don't feel I've batted zero against you one time Swingman. You missed the
mark on the thread about batteries and tried to lay it on me as if I had
been duped, when the point was never about me. Likewise with the thread
involving Andy. You tried to throw the conversation about several different
ways with more than one poster and none involved allowed you to do so.
Oops - looks like you were had again Swingman.
That's the thing with your posts - you feel this need to be oh-so
authoratative, and you end up offering nothing more than superfilous, off
the mark comments. Red Herrings. Straw man arguments. Sad for you that
you don't even seem to notice that the digs you try to throw aren't even
appropriate to the conversation at hand. That makes them somewhat impotent.
But go ahead, if it makes you feel good, have at it. No, it doesn't get my
goat - it's more that you amuse me in your inability to discuss a point
without throwing irrelevant material in there as a distraction, and you
never do end up addressing the point at hand.
I like that the "yeahbut" seems to get your goat. I might have to use that
more often.
>
> And you know _exactly_ what it is I am talking about.
Do you?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"toller" wrote in message
> I have done maybe 20 biscuit joined panels with a PC557. Typically over a
> 4' length, with 7 biscuits, there are a couple inches with a 1/16"
> difference, and maybe a foot with a 1/32" difference. It takes a few
> minutes with 80 grit to get them even. That is on the good side; the
> backside can be much worse and take much longer to get even, if I bother.
I
> suppose the back would be better if I planed the wood, but unless it is
> critical I just use the lumberyard's S2S, since no one will see it anyhow.
>
> Is that typical, or should I be getting better results? If the latter,
any
> tips?
IME, the problem lies not with your biscuits, nor your plate jointer, but
the fact that you're using them with the wrong purpose in mind for the type
of stock you are using.
The key to good face and edge "alignment" of wood panels is in stock
selection and stock preparation. Biscuits, used properly in your example
above, only assist you in maintaining the alignment you achieved with the
first two parameters.
Without a jointer and planer, or practiced use of planes made for the same
purpose, you may not be able to get any better results with dimensioned
lumber than what you are experiencing.
A flat work surface is also of great benefit.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
toller wrote:
>
> I guess I am either not holding it level, or the S2S isn't flat. I will
> face joint some wood and test it out.
> Thanks
What are you using for the biscuits? Some I've seen (including a bulk
batch of PC-branded ones) aren't very good and leave some slop in the
slot. If they're not snug, a <little> steaming first may help.
The stock should be pretty darn close at the site of the biscuit(s) but
if, as you say, you're running mill stock w/o surface prep I'd expect
some variation between locations. If the stock has some bow or warp in
it and you're having to bring it into alignment, that will cause the
other locations to move.
Also, it's <possible> (but not likely) you've got a problem w/ the
joiner or the cutter. A tooth on the blade could be out of alignment
leaving a wider than nominal groove, for example. (My hired hand
somehow managed to drop mine and it landed such that it happened--how,
exactly, I still haven't figured out). :(
One last thing--what size biscuit are you using? Larger will provide
more bending resistance as it has more surface depth.
toller wrote:
>
> >
> > What are you using for the biscuits? Some I've seen (including a bulk
> > batch of PC-branded ones) aren't very good and leave some slop in the
> > slot. If they're not snug, a <little> steaming first may help.
> >
> I am using the PC #20s in the large plastic bag.
> Is there a better brand? If I still have a problem after preparing the wood
> properly, I guess that is the next thing to try.
If they fit well, no problem...I just got a batch of those that had a
pretty high content of both mis-cut and out of dimension. Low humidity
here may have contributed to the tendency to be thin.
I've used about every named variety at some time or the other...cheapest
is usually ok, but as I say this one particular batch of PC-branded bulk
were/are the worst from a QC standpoint.
As noted, it's easy enough to tell whether they're snug in the slot or
not...if they are, that's not the problem. If they aren't, the problem
could be either the biscuit is a little thin or the slot is large. The
latter could be either technique or as noted before, a tool/cutter
problem. Way to test that is to take small test piece and prepare it
well and practice.
toller wrote:
>
> >
> > What are you using for the biscuits? Some I've seen (including a bulk
> > batch of PC-branded ones) aren't very good and leave some slop in the
> > slot. If they're not snug, a <little> steaming first may help.
> >
> I am using the PC #20s in the large plastic bag.
> Is there a better brand? If I still have a problem after preparing the wood
> properly, I guess that is the next thing to try.
One last possibility (thanks to the hired hand again--he showed me more
ways to do things wrong or haphazardly than I knew existed :) )--when
cutting the slots <don't> run the cutter in and out more than once...he
had a habit of doing it 2 or 3 or more times, by which time he'd hogged
the original out...
Dan wrote:
>
> On Sat 15 Jan 2005 10:03:49a, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
> > I am using the PC #20s in the large plastic bag.
> > Is there a better brand? If I still have a problem after preparing
> > the wood properly, I guess that is the next thing to try.
> >
> Those are the ones I use. The only problem I have is sometimes they're too
> big to fit in the slot without whackin 'em with a mallet so I often end up
> with a dozen or so that aren't usable out of a big jarful, but that's the
> only problem. Never had one that seemed TOO sloppy.
As noted, it's only been one batch in particular that I've had (but it
was a batch of 1000 so they've been around a while since I don't use a
tremendous number)...and, it was very hot and dry last summer so I
suspect they were a little damp originally and shrunk...
...
> But I'm standing with the ones who say your wood isn't prepared right. If
> they line up good before they're glued, the biscuits make certain they line
> up at glue time. If they don't, ain't no biscuits gonna help.
Agree <most likely> cause, I was trying to enumerate all the other
things either I've done or seen done or happen that could be causes
although as noted, less likely.
I'm on material prep one, technique two, other ...
"BobS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Toller,
>
> The biscuits (so the experts say) do not add any strength to a panel like
> you're doing and are only used for alignment. Three biscuits should be all
> you need.
Howzzat? They certainly do add strength to the joint. It will now break
outboard of the biscuits rather than outboard of the glue.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Despite the "advice" thus far, you will never know what the real problem
is
> until you start out with stock that is milled flat, and to the same
> dimension.
>
> Your goal is stock that matches perfectly when laid side by side on a flat
> surface, If it does, then it is doubtful your application of biscuits will
> throw it out of alignment.
>
> If they do, then you can go from there, troubleshooting your plate
jointer,
> biscuits and technique..
>
> Until then, don't believe a damn thing you read to the contrary until
you're
> sure your stock is properly prepared and dimensioned.
>
Aw, c'mon. As long as you reference the same face with a reasonable tool
and technique you match them - period, end of sentence. Proof of that every
time you join pieces at right angles. Same as unequal thickness, isn't it?
"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:46:17 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
> >
> >"BobS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Toller,
> >>
> >> The biscuits (so the experts say) do not add any strength to a panel
like
> >> you're doing and are only used for alignment. Three biscuits should be
all
> >> you need.
> >
> >Howzzat? They certainly do add strength to the joint. It will now break
> >outboard of the biscuits rather than outboard of the glue.
>
> I don't think so. Using few biscuits over a length, the glue area is
> much larger than the combined biscuit area which amounts to the
> face-areas of the cuts being the "lost" area from both surfaces.
> Otherwise, think of the two pieces being cemented with glue and no
> biscuits.
Think again. The biscuit is tougher to break across its random compressed
self than the wood along the grain just as the glue line is more difficult
to break than the wood.
So, though it's acknowledged as a difference which is really pretty
meaningless, it does is move the fracture zone a bit further from the glue
line.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Aw, c'mon yourself ... or is it that you just want to argue this morning?
>
> You know my point about starting with properly prepared stock is valid
> probably better than most, if you do indeed teach woodworking as you say
you
> do:
>
> Once again, stock selection and preparation are the two MOST important
> factors in a successful "flat" glue-up like the OP is talking about.
>
> Start there, then solve any problems that remain ... (my contention is
there
> will likely be NONE in this case, but if there is you will surely be a
step
> ahead by being able to rule out twisted, warped, curved, bowed stock)
>
> Now go ahead and continue to try and argue against those three points, and
> their order, all you want, but you'll be wasting your time and looking
> foolish.
I agree I'm wasting time trying to get you to think, however, there is a man
with a problem who needs some help, which you're not addressing.
The only way you'll find the answer to the problem is by elimination, and I
don't mean the crap you're putting out, I mean by eliminating possibilities.
Thus, knowing that pieces of unequal thickness, if referenced and assembled
on the same faces will be flat eliminates unequal stock thickness as a
cause. Thus it's likely he's got bad equipment or technique which is
causing him to bore off square to the edge or ream the slots. That being
the case, he can get perfectly prepared stock and ruin it again with your
advice.
You can reach as far as you care to into your alimentary canal for further
straw men, but until you address the proper issue, you'll not arrive at a
proper conclusion.
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I appreciate everyone's input, and have a preliminary answer.
>
> Tonight I glued a 3/4" back lip onto a 51" long shelf, with 6 biscuits. I
> didn't expect it to work very well because the wood was too narrow to
really
> get the guide flat; but since the defect would be on the back, I didn't
much
> care.
>
> It came out perfectly, despite horrible technique; if not for the pencil
> marks I could skip sanding. The difference was that both surfaces came
from
> my tablesaw rather than the lumberyard's planer; so they were pretty
> straight.
>
> This settles it for me, my problem is inadequately flat wood.
You're confusing we folks who consider "flat" as describing the broad face
and "straight," the edge. What did you do with your tablesaw?
Flat panels demand square or offsetting angled edges, panels without gaps
along the glue lines demand straight ones or some truly bigass clamps.
Not that I would recommend it, but you _could_ take a board bowing east and
a board bowing west and make a straight(er) north-south board out of the
glueup as long as you had a surface "local" level good enough to reference
your joiner. Some people have even clamped such boards to straight ones to
obtain a good local level. Next time you leave a couple boards leaning
against the wall too long, remember it.
OK, now that you've used the word "rip," I understand. It wasn't flat so
much as straight and square which you lacked. Nonetheless, do you
understand how a fixed distance between fence and blade is what the biscuit
joiner is all about as well?
What thickness stock is below the slot is as unimportant as the width of the
offcut when ripping.
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well in this case, I had a 13.5" wide 5' long panel that I ripped to
12.75".
> I slotted the top of the panel and the bottom of the scrap and glued them
> together; so the scrap was a lip for the panel.
>
> The glue line was the lumberyard's planing; probably not too good, but the
> lip was flexible enough to accomodate it. The edge was the TS rip.
> Apparently it was straight enough to give perfect results.
> The lip was pretty bowed, but it was no match for the shelf.
>
>
Remember, you are cutting the biscuit slots usually referenced to the
FACE of the board, and unless you are jointing the face of the board,
wood from the lumber yard is not really all that flat and straight to
start with
How are you clamping and how are you attempting to keep the surfaces
FLUSH during the glue up??
John
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:38:59 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have done maybe 20 biscuit joined panels with a PC557. Typically over a
>4' length, with 7 biscuits, there are a couple inches with a 1/16"
>difference, and maybe a foot with a 1/32" difference. It takes a few
>minutes with 80 grit to get them even. That is on the good side; the
>backside can be much worse and take much longer to get even, if I bother. I
>suppose the back would be better if I planed the wood, but unless it is
>critical I just use the lumberyard's S2S, since no one will see it anyhow.
>
>Is that typical, or should I be getting better results? If the latter, any
>tips?
>
George,
You'll note that I qualified that statement. There have been several
articles in that past couple of years that when the various types of joints
were tested, biscuits did not significantly add any strength. As for your
statement - a long-grained, properly glued joint is stronger than the wood
itself and "should not" break along the glue line. So by adding biscuits
you're only moving the distance from the joint and biscuit where the wood
itself will fail. Besides, how much strength do you need in a panel glue-up
anyway?
Bob S.
"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "BobS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Toller,
> >
> > The biscuits (so the experts say) do not add any strength to a panel
like
> > you're doing and are only used for alignment. Three biscuits should be
all
> > you need.
>
> Howzzat? They certainly do add strength to the joint. It will now break
> outboard of the biscuits rather than outboard of the glue.
>
>
>
I appreciate everyone's input, and have a preliminary answer.
Tonight I glued a 3/4" back lip onto a 51" long shelf, with 6 biscuits. I
didn't expect it to work very well because the wood was too narrow to really
get the guide flat; but since the defect would be on the back, I didn't much
care.
It came out perfectly, despite horrible technique; if not for the pencil
marks I could skip sanding. The difference was that both surfaces came from
my tablesaw rather than the lumberyard's planer; so they were pretty
straight.
This settles it for me, my problem is inadequately flat wood.
"George" wrote in message
> What thickness stock is below the slot is as unimportant as the width of
the
> offcut when ripping.
Completely irrelevant, as it turns out, to the OP's original
question/problem.
You and 'Yabut' both introduced the tool "index"/vast difference in stock
thickness issue as justification for missing the point.
The original question, and problem, clearly revolved around a "panel"
glue-up. Experience should tell both of you that it would be rare indeed if
the stock in a "panel" glue-up would not ideally be the same thickness.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Remember, you are cutting the biscuit slots usually referenced to the
> FACE of the board, and unless you are jointing the face of the board,
> wood from the lumber yard is not really all that flat and straight to
> start with
Huh??? It's flat enough for bisquit work unless the stuff has 2" waves over
a 6' span. The bisquit jointer rides on the face and the edge of the boards
in an area about 4". Everything is relative to the top of the board, along
the bisquited edge. Not withstanding really warped material, flat from the
lumber yard or home center is flat enough for what he's doing. There's
something else wrong. Look - he claims a 1/32 to 1/16" error over 4 feet.
Either he's picking out some really bad - and I mean really bad wood, or
he's not holding his plate jointer properly when he's making the cuts. Or
rushing his cuts in some other way. Even if the lumber is warped - again
assuming an edge that at least appears to be straight and perpendicular to
the face, he should be cutting slots the exact same distance from the face
of each board in each location. He's not. That sounds more like he's doing
something wrong than bad lumber... at least to me.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
>
> How are you clamping and how are you attempting to keep the surfaces
> FLUSH during the glue up??
>
> John
>
>
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:38:59 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I have done maybe 20 biscuit joined panels with a PC557. Typically over
a
> >4' length, with 7 biscuits, there are a couple inches with a 1/16"
> >difference, and maybe a foot with a 1/32" difference. It takes a few
> >minutes with 80 grit to get them even. That is on the good side; the
> >backside can be much worse and take much longer to get even, if I bother.
I
> >suppose the back would be better if I planed the wood, but unless it is
> >critical I just use the lumberyard's S2S, since no one will see it
anyhow.
> >
> >Is that typical, or should I be getting better results? If the latter,
any
> >tips?
> >
>
>
>
> What are you using for the biscuits? Some I've seen (including a bulk
> batch of PC-branded ones) aren't very good and leave some slop in the
> slot. If they're not snug, a <little> steaming first may help.
>
I am using the PC #20s in the large plastic bag.
Is there a better brand? If I still have a problem after preparing the wood
properly, I guess that is the next thing to try.
Toller,
The biscuits (so the experts say) do not add any strength to a panel like
you're doing and are only used for alignment. Three biscuits should be all
you need. With the kind of offset you're experiencing, you're technique may
be off a little. I have the same model and if you are always referencing
from the working surface - then that surface should end up flat across the
joints (give or take a few thousandths).
But if you're getting a 1/16" difference - read the manual again and be sure
the plate of the PC is held flat to the working surface while you cut the
slot. The bottom of the PC should not be sliding or riding on anything. If
it is and as you say, you're using S2S then you're seeing the difference of
each board.
Below is an attempt at ASCII art to show how to raise the board using a
scrap board so the PC is not referencing to anything except the board your
cutting the slots in. The tilt-down plate of the PC is held firmly in=place
on top of the board. Now when you insert the biscuits in the slots - the
slots are all cut from the same reference point.
--------------------------| < PC Plate rests on top and held firmly
|
|-------- < Slot ~ 1/2 way referenced from top
of board
|--------
|
--------------------------|
|
| < Scrap board used to keep panel board
above workbench while cutting slot
--------------------|
There are certainly other methods you can use but I think this should show
why you are getting the offset.
Bob S.
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have done maybe 20 biscuit joined panels with a PC557. Typically over a
> 4' length, with 7 biscuits, there are a couple inches with a 1/16"
> difference, and maybe a foot with a 1/32" difference. It takes a few
> minutes with 80 grit to get them even. That is on the good side; the
> backside can be much worse and take much longer to get even, if I bother.
I
> suppose the back would be better if I planed the wood, but unless it is
> critical I just use the lumberyard's S2S, since no one will see it anyhow.
>
> Is that typical, or should I be getting better results? If the latter,
any
> tips?
>
>
I have the same problem with my PC557. My best guess is that there is some
slop in the slide tracks for the motor. On mine with the base held firmly
on my bench I can rock the tail of the motor housing up and down slightly.
I'm thinking about trying to shim the slides.
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have done maybe 20 biscuit joined panels with a PC557. Typically over a
>4' length, with 7 biscuits, there are a couple inches with a 1/16"
>difference, and maybe a foot with a 1/32" difference. It takes a few
>minutes with 80 grit to get them even. That is on the good side; the
>backside can be much worse and take much longer to get even, if I bother.
>I suppose the back would be better if I planed the wood, but unless it is
>critical I just use the lumberyard's S2S, since no one will see it anyhow.
>
> Is that typical, or should I be getting better results? If the latter,
> any tips?
>
>> I appreciate everyone's input, and have a preliminary answer.
>>
>> Tonight I glued a 3/4" back lip onto a 51" long shelf, with 6 biscuits.
>> I
>> didn't expect it to work very well because the wood was too narrow to
> really
>> get the guide flat; but since the defect would be on the back, I didn't
> much
>> care.
>>
>> It came out perfectly, despite horrible technique; if not for the pencil
>> marks I could skip sanding. The difference was that both surfaces came
> from
>> my tablesaw rather than the lumberyard's planer; so they were pretty
>> straight.
>>
>> This settles it for me, my problem is inadequately flat wood.
>
> You're confusing we folks who consider "flat" as describing the broad face
> and "straight," the edge. What did you do with your tablesaw?
>
> Flat panels demand square or offsetting angled edges, panels without gaps
> along the glue lines demand straight ones or some truly bigass clamps.
>
> Not that I would recommend it, but you _could_ take a board bowing east
> and
> a board bowing west and make a straight(er) north-south board out of the
> glueup as long as you had a surface "local" level good enough to reference
> your joiner. Some people have even clamped such boards to straight ones
> to
> obtain a good local level. Next time you leave a couple boards leaning
> against the wall too long, remember it.
>
Well in this case, I had a 13.5" wide 5' long panel that I ripped to 12.75".
I slotted the top of the panel and the bottom of the scrap and glued them
together; so the scrap was a lip for the panel.
The glue line was the lumberyard's planing; probably not too good, but the
lip was flexible enough to accomodate it. The edge was the TS rip.
Apparently it was straight enough to give perfect results.
The lip was pretty bowed, but it was no match for the shelf.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "toller"wrote in message
> > I guess I am either not holding it level, or the S2S isn't flat. I will
> > face joint some wood and test it out.
>
> Despite the "advice" thus far, you will never know what the real problem
is
> until you start out with stock that is milled flat, and to the same
> dimension.
>
> Your goal is stock that matches perfectly when laid side by side on a flat
> surface, If it does, then it is doubtful your application of biscuits will
> throw it out of alignment.
>
> If they do, then you can go from there, troubleshooting your plate
jointer,
> biscuits and technique..
>
> Until then, don't believe a damn thing you read to the contrary until
you're
> sure your stock is properly prepared and dimensioned.
>
And certainly don't do this experiment... Don't cut biscuit slots into a 2x4
and into a 1x3 and then try to join them together with the biscuits. Some
would not want you to see that the top edges should line up nicely even
though those two pieces of wood are different dimensions. Think about it -
how does your plate joiner index the wood?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"George" wrote in message
> I agree I'm wasting time trying to get you to think, however, there is a
man
> with a problem who needs some help, which you're not addressing.
And you're telling him to blame his tools instead of FIRST checking to see
that his stock is not the problem?
... you're looking awfully foolish, George.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
"toller"wrote in message
> I guess I am either not holding it level, or the S2S isn't flat. I will
> face joint some wood and test it out.
Despite the "advice" thus far, you will never know what the real problem is
until you start out with stock that is milled flat, and to the same
dimension.
Your goal is stock that matches perfectly when laid side by side on a flat
surface, If it does, then it is doubtful your application of biscuits will
throw it out of alignment.
If they do, then you can go from there, troubleshooting your plate jointer,
biscuits and technique..
Until then, don't believe a damn thing you read to the contrary until you're
sure your stock is properly prepared and dimensioned.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
amen bro..........;-)
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "toller" wrote in message
> > I appreciate everyone's input, and have a preliminary answer.
> >
> > Tonight I glued a 3/4" back lip onto a 51" long shelf, with 6 biscuits.
I
> > didn't expect it to work very well because the wood was too narrow to
> really
> > get the guide flat; but since the defect would be on the back, I didn't
> much
> > care.
> >
> > It came out perfectly, despite horrible technique; if not for the pencil
> > marks I could skip sanding. The difference was that both surfaces came
> from
> > my tablesaw rather than the lumberyard's planer; so they were pretty
> > straight.
> >
> > This settles it for me, my problem is inadequately flat wood.
>
> Your description of "there are a couple inches with a 1/16" difference,
and
> maybe a foot with a 1/32" difference".sounded pretty much like your stock
> would be the first place to check, IME.
>
> I've got a similar situation/problem coming up with some S2S 3/4 walnut
that
> someone gave me ... much of it is simply not flat enough and there is not
> enough material to mill flat and still end up with stock a suitable
> thickness for many of the type of projects I do.
>
> In this case, and because it was free I can spend the time to do it, my
> solution is going to have to be to laminate pieces, then joint and plane
to
> desired thickness.
>
> Arguments can rage about whether you need a jointer and planer, but they
are
> a tough combination to beat when it comes to making it easy to do the best
> work of which you are capable.
>
> good luck ...
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 11/06/04
>
>
On Sat 15 Jan 2005 10:03:49a, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I am using the PC #20s in the large plastic bag.
> Is there a better brand? If I still have a problem after preparing
> the wood properly, I guess that is the next thing to try.
>
Those are the ones I use. The only problem I have is sometimes they're too
big to fit in the slot without whackin 'em with a mallet so I often end up
with a dozen or so that aren't usable out of a big jarful, but that's the
only problem. Never had one that seemed TOO sloppy.
It's not related to whatever problem you have, but I remember a thread here
once, long long ago, where the guy said he had little depressions in his
table top, exactly where the biscuits were. The best explanation was that
he'd sanded the top a few hours after glueing, and those biscuits expand
with the glue, and then shrink back, but it takes around 12 hours or more.
So, when you finally get that process working, don't sand or plane any
surfaces for a day or so.
But I'm standing with the ones who say your wood isn't prepared right. If
they line up good before they're glued, the biscuits make certain they line
up at glue time. If they don't, ain't no biscuits gonna help.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Oh, fer crisssakes ... inexperienced woodworkers are always ready to blame
> the tool when the problem is that they fail to grasp the BASICS of
> woodworking.
Fer chissakes my ass Swingman. You have demonstrated a keen ability to
completely miss what is being said to you in favor of piping off like some
sort of sage. I would not use the term inexperienced to describe myself,
but I won't attempt to dissuade you since by now it's pretty clear no one
can tell you anything. Believe what you will, it's no sweat to me.
>
> You "think about it" ... try your little "experiment" with stock when both
> pieces are warped or bowed, even slightly, and see just how far you get
with
> "lined up nicely".
There you go - again... throw a red herring in the mix. Do yourself a favor
and go back and re-read what myself and other poster actually wrote, can the
straw men, and try to figure out what has been said. Then attempt to
discuss within the context of the conversation without throwing in
irrelevant artifacts.
>
> The OP is admittedly using purchased S2S lumber and can't get a "flat"
> glue-up ... IF you've done any woodworking whatsoever, experience would
have
> already told you where the FIRST place he should look.
The first place he should look is at the way he's trying to do it. I don't
know if he has a bad tool or if he's using it wrong or what the problem is.
Unlike you, I can't make the ultimate determination from the comfort of my
armchair, without seeing the situation. You still fail to explain how a
plate joiner is indexed. Then apply that to your ramblings. If you were
more of a woodworker than a newsgroup expert, you'd know how this type of
joinery works. Have you never joined two dissimilar sizes of wood?
>
> Now go back and read what I said in previous posts instead of trying to
find
> cracks in it ... there aren't any!
Your over inflated opinion of yourself that couldn't help but put in your
closing comments on that last post of yours is what caused me to respond.
Go back and take a look at it for yourself.
>
> And if you still think you can argue with that, you'd do better to go get
> some more shop time instead.
The great and mighty one has spoken. Maybe a little more shop time and a
little less dissertation would help you understand that there is more to
woodworking than planing everything to the same size. You might even
discover that two differently sized pieces of wood can very nicely be put
together. Your jumped to conclusion, while appropriate at a different point
in considering the project as a whole, is completely irrelevant to the OP's
problem.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
HI Toller,
I have had much the same result with biscuits. Best panel results for
me have been with heavy cauls above and below the panel. The biscuits get
me close but the cauls pull everything into place. If the boards are planed
before joining, there should be only minute differences between adjacent
boards.
Dave
"George" wrote in message
>
> "Swingman" < wrote in message
>
> >
> > Despite the "advice" thus far, you will never know what the real problem
> is
> > until you start out with stock that is milled flat, and to the same
> > dimension.
> >
> > Your goal is stock that matches perfectly when laid side by side on a
flat
> > surface, If it does, then it is doubtful your application of biscuits
will
> > throw it out of alignment.
> >
> > If they do, then you can go from there, troubleshooting your plate
> jointer,
> > biscuits and technique..
> >
> > Until then, don't believe a damn thing you read to the contrary until
> you're
> > sure your stock is properly prepared and dimensioned.
> >
>
> Aw, c'mon. As long as you reference the same face with a reasonable tool
> and technique you match them - period, end of sentence. Proof of that
every
> time you join pieces at right angles. Same as unequal thickness, isn't
it?
Aw, c'mon yourself ... or is it that you just want to argue this morning?
You know my point about starting with properly prepared stock is valid
probably better than most, if you do indeed teach woodworking as you say you
do:
Once again, stock selection and preparation are the two MOST important
factors in a successful "flat" glue-up like the OP is talking about.
Start there, then solve any problems that remain ... (my contention is there
will likely be NONE in this case, but if there is you will surely be a step
ahead by being able to rule out twisted, warped, curved, bowed stock)
Now go ahead and continue to try and argue against those three points, and
their order, all you want, but you'll be wasting your time and looking
foolish.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "George" wrote in message
>
> > What thickness stock is below the slot is as unimportant as the width of
> the
> > offcut when ripping.
>
> Completely irrelevant, as it turns out, to the OP's original
> question/problem.
>
> You and 'Yabut' both introduced the tool "index"/vast difference in stock
> thickness issue as justification for missing the point.
>
> The original question, and problem, clearly revolved around a "panel"
> glue-up. Experience should tell both of you that it would be rare indeed
if
> the stock in a "panel" glue-up would not ideally be the same thickness.
>
So - you felt so cocky as to post your presumed righteousness immediately
after toller posted that he had met with success and that he had ripped an
edge with his table saw, even though that edge he created had nothing to do
with board thickness, but now it's back to panel thickness. You still
haven't explained how panel thickness has anything to do with what toller is
explaining that he's doing. That stock in a panel glue up would ideally be
the same thickness does not require great genius to figure out so why don't
you move past that point and just pretend that you're not the only one who
knows that. His points and his descriptions have not been different
thickness panels and as has been articulated to you, and even if they were,
with his joining process, he should be able to get a good top surface
alignment.
As yet, you haven't explained a thing to the guy beyond ranting about
selecting materials and plaining down boards. You haven't help him address
or resolve his problem yet you mouth off at those who have tried. Maybe
such a thing is beneath one so high and mighty as yourself.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike Marlow", dripping venom, wrote in message
> > I don't feel I've batted zero against you one time Swingman. You missed
> the
> > mark on the thread about batteries and tried to lay it on me as if I had
> > been duped, when the point was never about me. Likewise with the thread
> > involving Andy. You tried to throw the conversation about several
> different
> > ways with more than one poster and none involved allowed you to do so.
> > Oops - looks like you were had again Swingman.
>
> LOL ... I've suspect this of you for a month or two, but now we know for
> certain..
You are one deluded individual. Just what in the hell are you babbling
about now? Here we go again - another Swingman diversion. No wonder you're
called "Swing"man - it's because you keep swinging the conversation to and
fro. You've been called fella. You're just unhappy because you've been
seen for what you are. Don't waste your time trying to divert this and put
it on me again - I have no agenda here.
>
> My friend, it is _you_ who have just been "suckered" into admitting what
> you have been engaged in, and of even keeping track of your attempts.
Admitting? You are delusional dude.
>
> Sorry, dude, find something original, if you're capable ... it's "yabut"
and
> it's been used to describe your behavior since I began to suspect the
> juvenile game you've been playing.
Clever mind of yours there Swingman. Delusional, but clever. You really
should try reading comprehension though - it will help these delusional
spells of yours.
>
> Yep, I know that you've been suckered into admitting your little game, and
> of even keeping score, thread by thread.
Game? Again you say that. Do tell... just what is this "game". The only
thing I can be accused of is finally getting fed up with your high and
mighty attitude and deciding that I was going to give back tone and texture
exactly as you put it out. And that my delusional friend seems to have
really gotten your goat.
>
> And now that that's been seltled, go fuck yourself, sucker.
>
Profound. Not surprising, but profound... considering the source.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:46:17 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
>"BobS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Toller,
>>
>> The biscuits (so the experts say) do not add any strength to a panel like
>> you're doing and are only used for alignment. Three biscuits should be all
>> you need.
>
>Howzzat? They certainly do add strength to the joint. It will now break
>outboard of the biscuits rather than outboard of the glue.
I don't think so. Using few biscuits over a length, the glue area is
much larger than the combined biscuit area which amounts to the
face-areas of the cuts being the "lost" area from both surfaces.
Otherwise, think of the two pieces being cemented with glue and no
biscuits.
Either way, the pieces are much stronger at the wood/glue surface than
wood/wood. The biscuits essentially act only as an alignment guide.
A Google will find other sources in agreement with this. The region
of the biscuit contact is very small over the length of most pieces
being joined this way. The glue over most of the non-bicuited length
is what is doing the job. Biscuits stop slipping and sliding in all
directions, and make gluing /clamping much easier than otherwise, an
they are used for alignment, that's all.
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
> > Until then, don't believe a damn thing you read to the contrary until
> you're
> > sure your stock is properly prepared and dimensioned.
> >
>
> And certainly don't do this experiment... Don't cut biscuit slots into a
2x4
> and into a 1x3 and then try to join them together with the biscuits. Some
> would not want you to see that the top edges should line up nicely even
> though those two pieces of wood are different dimensions. Think about
it -
> how does your plate joiner index the wood?
Oh, fer crisssakes ... inexperienced woodworkers are always ready to blame
the tool when the problem is that they fail to grasp the BASICS of
woodworking.
You "think about it" ... try your little "experiment" with stock when both
pieces are warped or bowed, even slightly, and see just how far you get with
"lined up nicely".
The OP is admittedly using purchased S2S lumber and can't get a "flat"
glue-up ... IF you've done any woodworking whatsoever, experience would have
already told you where the FIRST place he should look.
Now go back and read what I said in previous posts instead of trying to find
cracks in it ... there aren't any!
And if you still think you can argue with that, you'd do better to go get
some more shop time instead.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
"Mike Marlow", dripping venom, wrote in message
> I don't feel I've batted zero against you one time Swingman. You missed
the
> mark on the thread about batteries and tried to lay it on me as if I had
> been duped, when the point was never about me. Likewise with the thread
> involving Andy. You tried to throw the conversation about several
different
> ways with more than one poster and none involved allowed you to do so.
> Oops - looks like you were had again Swingman.
LOL ... I've suspect this of you for a month or two, but now we know for
certain..
My friend, it is _you_ who have just been "suckered" into admitting what
you have been engaged in, and of even keeping track of your attempts.
Shame on you!
> I like that the "yeahbut" seems to get your goat. I might have to use
that
> more often.
Sorry, dude, find something original, if you're capable ... it's "yabut" and
it's been used to describe your behavior since I began to suspect the
juvenile game you've been playing.
> > And you know _exactly_ what it is I am talking about.
>
> Do you?
Yep, I know that you've been suckered into admitting your little game, and
of even keeping score, thread by thread.
And now that that's been seltled, go fuck yourself, sucker.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have done maybe 20 biscuit joined panels with a PC557. Typically over a
> 4' length, with 7 biscuits, there are a couple inches with a 1/16"
> difference, and maybe a foot with a 1/32" difference. It takes a few
> minutes with 80 grit to get them even. That is on the good side; the
> backside can be much worse and take much longer to get even, if I bother.
I
> suppose the back would be better if I planed the wood, but unless it is
> critical I just use the lumberyard's S2S, since no one will see it anyhow.
>
> Is that typical, or should I be getting better results? If the latter,
any
> tips?
>
You should be getting -much- better results than 1/16th off, especially with
the spacing you're quoting and PC557. One common error is to use the fence
to register some boards (probably while stacked on top of each other) then
think you're using the fence on the last board but since it's sitting on the
benchtop, the base of the joiner is resting on the benchtop instead of the
fence resting on the board, throwing off the depth that the slot is cut.
If that's not the issue, how flat are your boards to start with and are you
using clamping cauls during glue ups? Even lumberyard S2S moves after
surfacing. Just a couple of things that I've found help. I've never had a
step of more than 1/64, easily sanded or planed away.
Joe C.
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
> So - you felt so cocky as to post your presumed righteousness immediately
> after toller posted that he had met with success and that he had ripped an
> edge with his table saw, even though that edge he created had nothing to
do
> with board thickness, but now it's back to panel thickness. You still
> haven't explained how panel thickness has anything to do with what toller
is
> explaining that he's doing. That stock in a panel glue up would ideally
be
> the same thickness does not require great genius to figure out so why
don't
> you move past that point and just pretend that you're not the only one who
> knows that. His points and his descriptions have not been different
> thickness panels and as has been articulated to you, and even if they
were,
> with his joining process, he should be able to get a good top surface
> alignment.
?? Sorry, dude ... your rant make no sense whatsoever.
> As yet, you haven't explained a thing to the guy beyond ranting about
> selecting materials and plaining down boards. You haven't help him
address
> or resolve his problem yet you mouth off at those who have tried. Maybe
> such a thing is beneath one so high and mighty as yourself.
There you go again ... it's "planing" down boards, Mike.
Really gets your goat that you're _still_ batting zero after all your
"yabut" attempts on various subjects the last few months, doesn't it?
... so keep trying.
And you know _exactly_ what it is I am talking about.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
"George" wrote in message:
> You can reach as far as you care to into your alimentary canal for further
> straw men, but until you address the proper issue, you'll not arrive at a
> proper conclusion.
> > "toller" wrote in message
> > This settles it for me, my problem is inadequately flat wood.
Hmmm ... BASIC woodworking concept: stock selection and preparation. Sound
familiar, George?
> You're confusing we folks who consider "flat" as describing the broad face
> and "straight," the edge.
LOL... first blame the tool, and when that doesn't fly, blame the OP for
"confusing" you.
As predicted, you really do look foolish, George.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04