I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on the
tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm resawing. I've
spent most of my day trying to get a 3/16" blade to stay on. I've read the
manual and Duginsky's book. Maybe it's me but it's not working. I just want
to make my wife a heart shaped bandsaw box.
Thanks, Darrell
I've read this thread to this point and have come to the conklusion you
murricans have a combination of cabin fever and a slow news day.
In my mind, the blade naturally tries to climb onto the ridge on the wheel
through the drag effect caused by the added resistance. If the ridges on
each wheel are not aligned with each other, the blade is struggling to find
equilibrium.
It may not be right, it may even be a crackpot theory, but it will hopefully
keep an otherwise entertaining thread alive.
Groggy (who's hoping for an early thaw in the USofA)
"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:40:38 -0600, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
> >Larry Jaques wrote:
> >>"Coplanarity" is perfection. "Something close" and "whatever
> >>tracks" are reality. Any other Qs?
> >
> >Yes. You don't know either?
>
> Um, er, uh, what was the question?
>
>
> --
> Impeach 'em ALL!
> ----------------------------------------------------
> http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
I also have had this frustration. The tension alignment of the top wheel is
very delicate. Just a 1/8" turn in or out can move the blade off center. If
you get it tracking good don't mess with the tension anymore and don't
untension it when not in use. You will then have to start all over to keep
it in place. If the wheels are aligned right which they may not be, so check
them with a good square. With patience you will get it to run nice.
Tim
"Darrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on the
> tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm resawing.
I've
> spent most of my day trying to get a 3/16" blade to stay on. I've read the
> manual and Duginsky's book. Maybe it's me but it's not working. I just
want
> to make my wife a heart shaped bandsaw box.
> Thanks, Darrell
>
>
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:50:09 GMT, "Groggy" <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:
>Oh, and one more thang, doesn't a spinning object naturally try to bring
>itself to vertical, the higher the speed the greater the force?
No, it simply resists turning due to gyroscopic effects.
>dunno why, I just wanna cause a ruckus tonight...
And you said it was the 'Murricans who had cabin fever?
--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:07:38 -0600, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>That, in turn, would probably tend to stress
>>the bearings a bit more.
>
>See, this is where I think the train comes off the track.
>Since neither of us, and no one else I know, is an injineer
>I'm thinking the force exerted down to the bearings is the
>same no matter if the wheels are perfectly plumb to the
>world or slightly tipped.
The problem is the movement of the force from the flat
of the bearing area to the edges of the bearings. Auto
engineers moved to tapered roller bearing pairs to
overcome the longevity problem and angular loading.
(I read all about that in wrenchin' school 30 yarn ago.)
Co-linearity is one of those items the engineers push
for. It probably makes a difference only in long-term
use in heavy production environments. But why NOT try
to set it on your home machine? It can only make the
beastie run better. Ditto link-belts. They made a helluva
difference on my Griz. My neighbor lost a large branch
off one his madrones in the wind a couple weeks ago and
I'm going to see if I can get some lengths to resaw. I
love the look of that wood.
>>You just happen to have one, eh? <g>
>
>No, I wouldn't have a banded machine that didn't track.
>Though during the late 70's there was a Delta (pre-mentioned
>but snipped) in a shop I worked in. It was at best a brand
>new boat anchor.
Pre-Crapsman, eh?
--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
When you do the initial tension-off check. Though that's really to match
hubs in the same plane.
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jim Polaski wrote:
> >While you've read the book, have you checked to see if your wheels are
> >aligned to one another?
>
>
> When ever are the wheel aligned with each other?
>
> UA100
Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while?
Seriously, if you can be, consider that the stress on the bearings will be
greater if the hubs are not in the same plane. The process by which the
blade tracks does, as you have observed, involve compensating for the crown
on the tire and the differential friction by tilting the rim. Hub remains
in the same place, if you do point geometry.
Imagine it would be absolutely critical on a non-crowned wheel.
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George wrote:
> >When you do the initial tension-off check. Though that's really to
match
> >hubs in the same plane.
>
>
> Got an explanation for why my saw tracks perfectly despite
> the wheels not being co-planar?
>
> UA100
In article <slQWb.36507$TPZ.12451
@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
[email protected] says...
> On 12-Feb-2004, brocpuffs <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > How about angled wheels? When ya adjust so the blade will ride in the
> > center, you adjust the tilt of the top wheel from the vertical plane
> > (trying to SOUND) like an engineer here).
> >
> > Wottehell, this will have some effect, too. Real effect, not
> > speculation
>
> You tension the blade and the wheels tilt in. You tilt the top wheel
> out to realign. This makes them parallel again at the expense of
> a slight change away from coplanar. As I said in another message,
> you can get away with a _slight_ misalignment.
Believe me, you can get away with gross misalignment if you have a
forgiving blade and a good crown on the tires.
> I once tried adjusting the saw so that it's coplanar even under tension.
> This is an iterative approach that means adjust, tension, check, detension,
> readjust, tension, check, detension, readjust, tension, check...
> until the alignment is "perfect" under tension. It didn't work
> significantly better than the conventional alignment but was a _lot_ more
> work and the adjustments were different for each blade. The reason is
> that all that fiddling doesn't make a lot of change in the actual alignment.
While this might help you sleep better at night, you're spending way too
much time on this. The bottom line is that if the blade tracks well
while under tension and torsional loads, you got a winner.
It's kinda like tuning up a 65 Mustang. You throw out the book and go
by feel.
And while Duginske is a good read, he puts too much emphasis on coplanar
wheels. He should have spent time teaching the masses how to crown a
tire.
> Coplanar - the easy way to get good alignment. Non-coplanar - maybe it'll
> work if you're lucky and/or you don't care much about the resulting cutting
> quality.
Pretty broad brush there Mikey. Do you have scientific evidence to
prove this? Seems to me my non coplanar saw cuts just fine, thank you.
And, I *do* care about cutting quality and blade life.
Just remember - it's wood, not platinum.
--
Regards,
Rick
(Remove the HIGH SPOTS for e-mail)
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:26:39 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Michael Daly
>>You may not be an engineer, but I are.
After snipping lots of wind, I add:
How about angled wheels? When ya adjust so the blade will ride in the
center, you adjust the tilt of the top wheel from the vertical plane
(trying to SOUND) like an engineer here).
Wottehell, this will have some effect, too. Real effect, not
speculation
James
[email protected]\
On 12-Feb-2004, brocpuffs <[email protected]> wrote:
> How about angled wheels? When ya adjust so the blade will ride in the
> center, you adjust the tilt of the top wheel from the vertical plane
> (trying to SOUND) like an engineer here).
>
> Wottehell, this will have some effect, too. Real effect, not
> speculation
You tension the blade and the wheels tilt in. You tilt the top wheel
out to realign. This makes them parallel again at the expense of
a slight change away from coplanar. As I said in another message,
you can get away with a _slight_ misalignment.
I once tried adjusting the saw so that it's coplanar even under tension.
This is an iterative approach that means adjust, tension, check, detension,
readjust, tension, check, detension, readjust, tension, check...
until the alignment is "perfect" under tension. It didn't work
significantly better than the conventional alignment but was a _lot_ more
work and the adjustments were different for each blade. The reason is
that all that fiddling doesn't make a lot of change in the actual alignment.
Coplanar - the easy way to get good alignment. Non-coplanar - maybe it'll
work if you're lucky and/or you don't care much about the resulting cutting
quality.
Mike
Not to mention it gives you full tracking authority, as the crown on the
tires are aligned.
"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:28:35 -0600, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
> >Larry Jaques wrote:
> >>Vertically? Always. Browse Duginske's "Band Saw Handbook"
> >>for "coplanar", Keets.
> >
> >And what happens to co-planar when you track your band, ehh
> >Lare?
>
> "Coplanarity" is perfection. "Something close" and "whatever
> tracks" are reality. Any other Qs?
>
>
> --
> Impeach 'em ALL!
> ----------------------------------------------------
> http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
Last chance to out-think the other couples.
The blade, in a perfect world, tracks at the top of the crown. Thus, as the
preferred situation, the crowns on the lower and upper should be in line to
track the perfect blade. This loads the bearings in their preferred
direction.
If the world isn't perfect, you will have to tilt the upper wheel to force
the blade toward the crown. If you start at co-planar, you can compensate
for the worst blade with the built-in adjustment. If you start out
otherwise, you may exceed compensation and still not achieve tracking.
Moreover, if you are forced to track too far forward or aft because of non
coplanarity(?) you may exceed the adjustment on your thrust or guide
bearings.
Oh yes, the load on your bearings will be shifted more from the center of
the race, resulting in greater wear....
"Bridger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:36:38 GMT, Paul Kierstead
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >If the wheels are canted, the pressure on the bearings is going to be
> >uneven; it will be trying to bow its spindle.
>
> there's no outboard bearing, so that's gonna happen anyhow as soon as
> you tension the band.
>
> 'sides, the spindle cants with the wheel. the force of the band under
> tension is *almost* straight into the spindle/bearings no matter what.
>
>
>
>
> >There will be very little
> >pressure on one side of the bearing and greater then average pressure on
> >the other side. This should cause premature, uneven, wearing.
> >
> >That being said, bandsaws get abused a lot and the bearings don't seem
> >to wear out very quickly in any case, so it is probably a lot of fuss
> >about nothing. Better to use a tool then worry about wearing it out, or
> >spend hours and hours trying to make it last just a little longer,
> >especially when bearings aren't that expensive anyway.
>
>
> or hard to get to, or very high speed or for that matter usually run
> continuously.
dunno, Groggy. When my head spins, I feel like lying down...
<d&r>
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
"Groggy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Oh, and one more thang, doesn't a spinning object naturally try to bring
> itself to vertical, the higher the speed the greater the force?
>
"RPRESHONG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > When my head spins, I feel like lying down...
>
> I find putting one foot on the floor stops the spin.
Hmmm...
I usually have both of them on the floor to start with.
:D
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
Narh, still waiting for the builders...
Bastahds!
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
"Groggy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> g'day Noons, haven't read your voice for a while. Hope all is well at the
> new abode.
>
Larry Jaques wrote:
>That, in turn, would probably tend to stress
>the bearings a bit more.
See, this is where I think the train comes off the track.
Since neither of us, and no one else I know, is an injineer
I'm thinking the force exerted down to the bearings is the
same no matter if the wheels are perfectly plumb to the
world or slightly tipped.
>You just happen to have one, eh? <g>
No, I wouldn't have a banded machine that didn't track.
Though during the late 70's there was a Delta (pre-mentioned
but snipped) in a shop I worked in. It was at best a brand
new boat anchor.
UA100
g'day Noons, haven't read your voice for a while. Hope all is well at the
new abode.
cheers,
Greg
"Noons" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dunno, Groggy. When my head spins, I feel like lying down...
> <d&r>
> --
> Cheers
> Nuno Souto
> [email protected]
> "Groggy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Oh, and one more thang, doesn't a spinning object naturally try to bring
> > itself to vertical, the higher the speed the greater the force?
> >
>
>
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ...
>
> No, it simply resists turning due to gyroscopic effects.
In which case Larry, trying to turn within two dfferent planes would not be
a good thing, equilibrium wise.
Maybe we should all agree that Woody is right and go back to bed. I need to
tend to shop dog's nose anyway...
Greg
Bandsaw new, blade - timberwolf.
Thanks, Darrell
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Darrell wrote:
> > I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on
> > the tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm
> > resawing. I've spent most of my day trying to get a 3/16" blade to
> > stay on. I've read the manual and Duginsky's book. Maybe it's me but
> > it's not working. I just want to make my wife a heart shaped bandsaw
> > box. Thanks, Darrell
>
> Are the tires in good shape? Are the wheels coplaner? I set the tracking
> with all the guides away from the blade and just enough tension to hold
the
> blade in place. . Turn the wheels by hand while adjusting the knob on
back
> until it is riding right on top. After it is tracking, add some tension.
> Once the tension is set I bring the guides into place.
>
> Also possible you have a blade that is crap.
>
> You may do better by just starting everything over step by step. Good luck
> with your project.
> Ed
>
>
>
> --
> Ed
> [email protected]
> http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
>
>
Darrell wrote:
> I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on
> the tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm
> resawing. I've spent most of my day trying to get a 3/16" blade to
> stay on. I've read the manual and Duginsky's book. Maybe it's me but
> it's not working. I just want to make my wife a heart shaped bandsaw
> box. Thanks, Darrell
Are the tires in good shape? Are the wheels coplaner? I set the tracking
with all the guides away from the blade and just enough tension to hold the
blade in place. . Turn the wheels by hand while adjusting the knob on back
until it is riding right on top. After it is tracking, add some tension.
Once the tension is set I bring the guides into place.
Also possible you have a blade that is crap.
You may do better by just starting everything over step by step. Good luck
with your project.
Ed
--
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
"Jeffrey Thunder" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I don't buy the "coplanar" argument. The goal is to have the
> blade track correctly. My common-as-dirt Delta 14" tracks
> correctly when the wheels are not coplanar. There's even an
> adjustment to change the plane of the upper wheel in order
> to correct any problems with the blade not tracking right.
I was at a Scott Phillips demo a few months back. He said the same thing.
You have to get the blade tracking on the top of the wheel just right. He
is a fan of high tension for resawing in spite of what Timberwolf says.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:42:13 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:
>George wrote:
>Sooooooo, you agree that co-planar is a myth?
No, it's a basic config prior to fine tuning for
tracking which should lessen bearing wear. If the
wheels weren't vertically aligned, both the wheels
would have to be canted more to obtain both vertical
alignment of the blade and proper tracking on the
wheels. That, in turn, would probably tend to stress
the bearings a bit more.
>>Imagine it would be absolutely critical on a non-crowned wheel.
>
>A non-crowned wheel would be something from a late 70's
>vintage Delta 14" band saw, right?
You just happen to have one, eh? <g>
--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> writes:
> On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 10:09:05 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
>> Jim Polaski wrote:
>>>While you've read the book, have you checked to see if your wheels are
>>>aligned to one another?
>>
>>When ever are the wheel aligned with each other?
>
> Vertically? Always. Browse Duginske's "Band Saw Handbook"
> for "coplanar", Keets.
I don't buy the "coplanar" argument. The goal is to have the
blade track correctly. My common-as-dirt Delta 14" tracks
correctly when the wheels are not coplanar. There's even an
adjustment to change the plane of the upper wheel in order
to correct any problems with the blade not tracking right.
--
Jeff Thunder
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences
Northern Illinois Univ.
jthunder at math dot niu dot edu
Ay! Check out for sparks in electrical motors....
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
"Groggy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Trust me, *more* compressed air is the _last_ thing my dog needs...
>
"Bridger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:55:00 GMT, "Groggy" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ...
> >>
> >> No, it simply resists turning due to gyroscopic effects.
> >
> >In which case Larry, trying to turn within two dfferent planes would not
be
> >a good thing, equilibrium wise.
>
> come on.... two wheels, two spindles....
Not sure what you mean Bridger, I may be dense, but I see three "wheels"
(blade) and two spindles. It is the blade that is out of equilibrium as it
is trying to ride both wheels; each in their own plane - if only marginally.
--
Greg
Trust me, *more* compressed air is the _last_ thing my dog needs...
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Groggy wrote:
> >Maybe we should all agree that Woody is right and go back to bed.
>
> A least one of the signs of the impending apocalypse.
>
> >I need to tend to shop dog's nose anyway...
>
> Hey! Compressed air will fix that puppy up.
>
> UA100
George wrote:
>Last chance to out-think the other couples.
Don't bet your last dime.
>The blade, in a perfect world, tracks at the top of the crown. Thus, as the
>preferred situation, the crowns on the lower and upper should be in line to
>track the perfect blade. This loads the bearings in their preferred
>direction.
Not only do we have the train off the tracks but it's
careening down the embankment, towards the combo
orphanage/old folks home/puppy and kitty adoption agency.
A band saw, a "properly" designed band saw, has a wheel.
Into this wheel fits a shaft. This shaft and wheel fit into
a bearing directly behind the wheel. This wheel, shaft and
bearing fit into a cast iron housing where the bearing is
seated. At the other end of the cast iron housing the shaft
protrudes but before it protrudes we have another bearing
also seated into the housing.
What we have here is a cantilever, or, more appropriately
for this point and for this argument, a fulcrum and lever (a
see-saw Dave). The first bearing, right behind the wheel,
is the fulcrum. The wheel shaft acts as the lever.
Still with me? If not then grab your saw manual and take a
gander at the es'ploaded parts drawing.
OK, as I've already confessed I'm no injineer but what I do
know from experience and that is, any force being applied
down onto the top of the wheel by the band is transferred
and exerted onto the shaft which in turns puts a great deal
(tremendous actually) of downward force onto the first
bearing (the fulcrum).
The back bearing, it's got it's hand full with the upward
force being exerted by the lever (shaft).
Now, with all of this going on inside your poor band saw, do
you really want to peddle the myth of co-planar and bearing
wear?
>If the world isn't perfect, you will have to tilt the upper wheel to force
>the blade toward the crown. If you start at co-planar, you can compensate
>for the worst blade with the built-in adjustment. If you start out
>otherwise, you may exceed compensation and still not achieve tracking.
>Moreover, if you are forced to track too far forward or aft because of non
>coplanarity(?) you may exceed the adjustment on your thrust or guide
>bearings.
So, co-planar will allow me to buy and use the crappiest
blades? Can anyone recommend a good crappy blade?
>Oh yes, the load on your bearings will be shifted more from the center of
>the race, resulting in greater wear....
Ummm, the wheels, they don't give a rat's rosy red rectum
about co-planar. They already have their hands full with
the job they were designed to do.
Co-Planar
Angled Table Saw Fences
PVC Causing Dust Collector Fires
The Lumber Car
How many more of these myths do we have floating around?
UA100
On 11-Feb-2004, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ummm, the wheels, they don't give a rat's rosy red rectum
> about co-planar. They already have their hands full with
> the job they were designed to do.
You may not be an engineer, but I are.
If the wheels aren't coplanar, the crowns of the wheels don't
line up. The blade isn't going to ride on the centre of the
crowns by itself. If it's centred on one crown, it's riding
the edge of another and it will tend to wander off. Only
if the crowns are aligned will the blade run on both crowns
with minimal strain.
Once coplanar, you tension the blade and the force on the
wheels tends to pull them out of plane. You adjust the top wheel
to bring them back more-or-less into line. That's the tracking
adjustment.
If you start with non-coplanar, you'll likely have problems with
tracking unless you start torquing everything around to make up
for it.
Lining it up coplanar is an easier way to start out. YMMV.
Mike
In article <[email protected]>,
Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> writes:
> Not only do we have the train off the tracks but it's
> careening down the embankment, towards the combo
> orphanage/old folks home/puppy and kitty adoption agency.
10,000 nuns and orphans ...... They were all eaten by rats.
> A band saw, a "properly" designed band saw, has a wheel.
> Into this wheel fits a shaft. This shaft and wheel fit into
> a bearing directly behind the wheel. This wheel, shaft and
> bearing fit into a cast iron housing where the bearing is
The leg bone's connected to the
ankle bone
The ankle bone's connected to the
foot bone
(Sorry)
I just don't get all the "Oh my god, think of the poor bearing!"
wailing and beating of breasts. For a given blade, there's only
one "alignment" of the wheels which is correct: the one where the
blade tracks properly. My bearings will just have to suffer with
whatever that means.
> Still with me? If not then grab your saw manual and take a
> gander at the es'ploaded parts drawing.
You explode your band saw parts? Hmmm... I'm starting to
side more with the bearing.
> So, co-planar will allow me to buy and use the crappiest
> blades? Can anyone recommend a good crappy blade?
This comes up every week on the wreck. DAGS, lazy bones.
> Ummm, the wheels, they don't give a rat's rosy red rectum
> about co-planar. They already have their hands full with
Aren't those rats supposed to be rancid?
Doug, where are you?
> Co-Planar
> Angled Table Saw Fences
> PVC Causing Dust Collector Fires
> The Lumber Car
>
>
> How many more of these myths do we have floating around?
I don't know about myths, per se, but the electrical threads
often contain some real thigh slappers/side splitters.
How about "real woodworkers never stain cherry"?
--
Jeff Thunder
The From: header above is wrong on porpoise
To reply, use jeffthunder (at) comcast (dot) net
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:55:00 GMT, "Groggy" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ...
>>
>> No, it simply resists turning due to gyroscopic effects.
>
>In which case Larry, trying to turn within two dfferent planes would not be
>a good thing, equilibrium wise.
come on.... two wheels, two spindles....
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 10:09:05 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:
> Jim Polaski wrote:
>>While you've read the book, have you checked to see if your wheels are
>>aligned to one another?
>
>When ever are the wheel aligned with each other?
Vertically? Always. Browse Duginske's "Band Saw Handbook"
for "coplanar", Keets.
--
REMEMBER: First you pillage, then you burn.
---
http://diversify.com Full Service Website Development
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:21:52 -0700, Bridger <[email protected]> brought
forth from the murky depths:
>On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:55:00 GMT, "Groggy" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ...
>>>
>>> No, it simply resists turning due to gyroscopic effects.
>>
>>In which case Larry, trying to turn within two dfferent planes would not be
>>a good thing, equilibrium wise.
>
>come on.... two wheels, two spindles....
Perhaps I should have written "tilting" there. Then
Grogs wouldn't have the statement, the shop dog's
nose would be alright, the impending apocalypse
would be un-pended, and all would be right with the
world.
And people think words don't mean much...
--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
"Darrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on the
> tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm resawing.
It can be done. I replaced the metal guides with some made from hardwood
and positioned the wood guides gently up against the blade. I've used the
wood guide blocks with the smallest blade available for my Delta 14" BS with
no problems. IMHO, with small blades, the metal guides aren't much help in
holding the blade. Howard Ruttan has done some study of wood guides for the
banksaw: http://www.inthewoodshop.org/methods/wwc03n.shtml
Larry
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:36:38 GMT, Paul Kierstead
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> >That, in turn, would probably tend to stress
>> >the bearings a bit more.
>>
>> See, this is where I think the train comes off the track.
>> Since neither of us, and no one else I know, is an injineer
>> I'm thinking the force exerted down to the bearings is the
>> same no matter if the wheels are perfectly plumb to the
>> world or slightly tipped.
it seems to me like the bearing wear/ coplanar issue is one of these
things that in theory are real but the closer you get to alignment the
smaller the factor, and once you get in the range where the saw will
run at all has long since dived in towards zero....
>
>
>Well, I am not a *mechanical* engineer, but, in the fine tradition of
>usenet, will offer an opinion anyway.
<G>
>
>If the wheels are canted, the pressure on the bearings is going to be
>uneven; it will be trying to bow its spindle.
there's no outboard bearing, so that's gonna happen anyhow as soon as
you tension the band.
'sides, the spindle cants with the wheel. the force of the band under
tension is *almost* straight into the spindle/bearings no matter what.
>There will be very little
>pressure on one side of the bearing and greater then average pressure on
>the other side. This should cause premature, uneven, wearing.
>
>That being said, bandsaws get abused a lot and the bearings don't seem
>to wear out very quickly in any case, so it is probably a lot of fuss
>about nothing. Better to use a tool then worry about wearing it out, or
>spend hours and hours trying to make it last just a little longer,
>especially when bearings aren't that expensive anyway.
or hard to get to, or very high speed or for that matter usually run
continuously.
I have a Jet closed base and I run a 3/16" with noproblems. Wheels
MUST be aligned and blade has to run in the middle of the tires. Maybe
it is just "barely" out of line? Wouldn't take much with that small a
blade to throw it off.
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:13:00 -0600, "Darrell"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on the
>tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm resawing. I've
>spent most of my day trying to get a 3/16" blade to stay on. I've read the
>manual and Duginsky's book. Maybe it's me but it's not working. I just want
>to make my wife a heart shaped bandsaw box.
>Thanks, Darrell
>
In article <[email protected]>,
"Darrell" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on the
> tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm resawing. I've
> spent most of my day trying to get a 3/16" blade to stay on. I've read the
> manual and Duginsky's book. Maybe it's me but it's not working. I just want
> to make my wife a heart shaped bandsaw box.
> Thanks, Darrell
>
>
While you've read the book, have you checked to see if your wheels are
aligned to one another?
--
Jim Polaski
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return."
I had this same problem on my 10" Delta. I started looking for better
cool blocks and asked the sales reps. at TWC when they showed up in town
for the wood show in 2002. I was sold a stabilizer and I put it on as
the instructions said. I wondered why the stabilizer didn't move the
blade off of the wheels because you are required to get the blade on so
it spins fine. Then the grove in the stabilizer is aligned with the
back of the blade and the blade is then pushed forward about 1/8".
I never adjusted the tension. In fact I have changed to different size
of blades only to 'snap' then onto the existing wheel tension and make
sure the stabilizer is adjusted it's 1/8'. I have also noticed that
adjustment of the tension knob doesn't really do anything.
I don't want to sound like spam, but I do know you can get the Cater
Stabilizer at TWC for about $65, 1-800-892-4866.
If you don't have a Carter Stabilizer for your BS, then it is worth it
to say that you must suffer the punishment of playing with the tension
on the upper wheek until you get it right. Remember, wood has different
thickness and hardness and a blade will wander in softer areas.
--
Woody
Check out my Web Page at:
http://community-1.webtv.net/WoodworkerJoe/WoodworkerJoesInfo
Where you will find:
******** How My Shop Works ******** 5-21-03
* * * Build a $20 DC Separator Can Lid. 1-14-03
* * * DC Relay Box Building Plans. 1-14-03
* * * The Bad Air Your Breath Everyday.1-14-03
* * * What is a Real Woodworker? 2-8-03
* * * Murphy's Woodworking Definitions. 2-8-03
* * * Murphy's Woodworking Laws. 4-6-03
* * * What is the true meaning of life? 1-14-03
* * * Woodworker Shop Signs. 2-8-03
Michael Daly
>You may not be an engineer, but I are.
Finally, someone who admits to being one.
>If the wheels aren't coplanar, the crowns of the wheels don't
>line up.
OK, we know this to be true.
>The blade isn't going to ride on the centre of the
>crowns by itself.
OK, we know this to be true.
>If it's centred on one crown, it's riding
>the edge of another and it will tend to wander off.
In theory this is true but as I have said, my wheels aren't
co-planar and the band(s) ride(s) as true as anything I've
seen.
OK, "maybe" someone could check it with some snot, boogers
and a stick (or a TS Aligner Jr.) and find it out by half a
thou but so far this gross alignment isn't an issue.
>Only if the crowns are aligned will the blade run on both crowns
>with minimal strain.
OK, I think I've found the crux of the biscuit. Define what
you mean by minimal? Are you saying there's always strain
no matter the alignment? Even in a perfect world? Sorry, I
know the answer to this. I'm baiting you. OK, there, I
admit it.
>Once coplanar, you tension the blade and the force on the
>wheels tends to pull them out of plane.
OK, we know this to be true. And we should add, that the
given make-up of every blade is different and therefore each
and every blade will have a different effect on the wheels?
>You adjust the top wheel to bring them back more-or-less
>into line. That's the tracking adjustment.
OK, we know this to be true.
>If you start with non-coplanar, you'll likely have problems with
>tracking unless you start torquing everything around to make up
>for it.
But, but...
>Lining it up coplanar is an easier way to start out. YMMV.
But, but, my wheels aren't co-planar and my band(s) ride(s)
right down true and center on the wheels. I'd be happy to
open up my shop to any wreckreite who would like to ponder
this problem (or stand in awe as they gaze upon it) with me
or who doesn't believe me or who would like to further their
studies on the subject. But in the mean time, I still say
you're all blowing smoke up a rat's rosy red (and rancid)
rectum to say it's worth any more time than to note it,
i.e., don't get your undies inna bunch over it.
UA100
On 12-Feb-2004, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm baiting you. OK, there, I admit it.
I'll ignore it.
> And we should add, that the
> given make-up of every blade is different and therefore each
> and every blade will have a different effect on the wheels?
For blades of different size - yes. For blades of the same size
and make - negligible.
> But, but, my wheels aren't co-planar and my band(s) ride(s)
> right down true and center on the wheels.
Either the alignment isn't bad (even though you haven't changed
anything since you bought it) or the amount of crown + the
tension + other stuff is forcing your blade into some stressful
alignment.
I've done a bit of experimenting with the amount of alignment
(easy, since the one I have came 1/4" out of coplanar!) and
you can make it work while slightly out of alignment. But
if properly aligned, you get good tracking and less blade
vibration/wander/drift/etc.
Maybe you're not fussy about the quality of the cut.
Mike
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:16:02 GMT, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> scribbled:
>On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 10:09:05 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
>brought forth from the murky depths:
>
>> Jim Polaski wrote:
>>>While you've read the book, have you checked to see if your wheels are
>>>aligned to one another?
>>
>>When ever are the wheel aligned with each other?
>
>Vertically? Always. Browse Duginske's "Band Saw Handbook"
>for "coplanar", Keets.
Keith is down on Duginske, judging by some recent snide comments. Care
to explain why, Keith? Please. Inquiring minds want to know.
Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:52:55 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>Co-linearity is one of those items the engineers push
>>for. It probably makes a difference only in long-term
>>use in heavy production environments. But why NOT try
>>to set it on your home machine?
>
>George? What have you done with Larry?
Hey, hey, hey! We'll 'ave nun o' that here, lads.
Well, whaddya know? My G1012 has a pair of 6202ZZ bearings
on each shaft.
OK, so you're a disbeliever. A famous man once said
What me worry?
--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
In article <[email protected]>,
Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
> >That, in turn, would probably tend to stress
> >the bearings a bit more.
>
> See, this is where I think the train comes off the track.
> Since neither of us, and no one else I know, is an injineer
> I'm thinking the force exerted down to the bearings is the
> same no matter if the wheels are perfectly plumb to the
> world or slightly tipped.
Well, I am not a *mechanical* engineer, but, in the fine tradition of
usenet, will offer an opinion anyway.
If the wheels are canted, the pressure on the bearings is going to be
uneven; it will be trying to bow its spindle. There will be very little
pressure on one side of the bearing and greater then average pressure on
the other side. This should cause premature, uneven, wearing.
That being said, bandsaws get abused a lot and the bearings don't seem
to wear out very quickly in any case, so it is probably a lot of fuss
about nothing. Better to use a tool then worry about wearing it out, or
spend hours and hours trying to make it last just a little longer,
especially when bearings aren't that expensive anyway.
In article <[email protected]>, UnisawA100
@wi.rr.com says...
> Rick Chamberlain wrote:
> >Pretty broad brush there Mikey. Do you have scientific evidence to
> >prove this? Seems to me my non coplanar saw cuts just fine, thank you.
> >And, I *do* care about cutting quality and blade life.
>
>
> Thanks Rick. I was this close to slitting my wrists onna
> 'count of I wasn't getting glue ready edges from my band
> saw.
>
> UA100
Welcome. I know what you mean about those pesky bandsaurs - even the
old arn ones. No matter how hard I try, no matter how much I spend on
blades, no matter how much time I spend with my trusty TS-Aligner Jr
(tmEB) and straightedge, I can't get those glue ready edges!
I go slow, no love. I speed up, no love. New bearings and tires, no
love. I adjust the positioning of the saur relative to true magnetic
north, still no love.
Surely, there is some book or infomercial that can save us!
I'm hoping that Mikey will be at the Mahwahkee WW show next week so he
can show me (and the boys at Laguna) how to do it the right way.
Rick, willing to make 3 easy payments of $29.95 so I can get rid of my
jointer, planer, and sandpaper...
(Remove the HIGH SPOTS for e-mail)
Rick Chamberlain wrote:
>Pretty broad brush there Mikey. Do you have scientific evidence to
>prove this? Seems to me my non coplanar saw cuts just fine, thank you.
>And, I *do* care about cutting quality and blade life.
Thanks Rick. I was this close to slitting my wrists onna
'count of I wasn't getting glue ready edges from my band
saw.
UA100
Realize that co-planar with no tension on the blade does NOT mean that
it will actually be co-planar when it is tensioned. Check for
co-planar with the blade appropriately tensioned
John
On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 06:32:27 -0500, "George"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>When you do the initial tension-off check. Though that's really to match
>hubs in the same plane.
>
>"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Jim Polaski wrote:
>> >While you've read the book, have you checked to see if your wheels are
>> >aligned to one another?
>>
>>
>> When ever are the wheel aligned with each other?
>>
>> UA100
>
One other thing I use that seems to help with small blades is a Carter
Bandsaw Stabilizer.
It replaces the upper guides and eliminates the need for lower guides. It
is an amazing product.
Check it out.
Rob
"Rob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have felt your frustration. I have two bandsaws myself. An 18" and a
> 12". The 18 is easier because I use larger blades on it. Right now I
have
> a 1/16" blade on my 12". It can be a pain to track. If you have read the
> books, then you know the routine but it takes a fine hand to do it.
>
> I make sure my wheels are parallel. I made a jig to do this on my 12". I
> put the blade on under moderate tension and spin the top wheel by hand.
If
> the blade begins moving toward the edge, I tilt the top wheel one way or
the
> other until the blade movement stops. I usually have to do this a few
times
> and then I have it. Then I finish tensioning the blade and double check
to
> make sure the blade still tracks well. I make sure it runs well under
hand
> pressure before turning the saw on.
>
> I cut all kinds of things with this very small blade without trouble.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Rob
>
>
> "Darrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on the
> > tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm resawing.
> I've
> > spent most of my day trying to get a 3/16" blade to stay on. I've read
the
> > manual and Duginsky's book. Maybe it's me but it's not working. I just
> want
> > to make my wife a heart shaped bandsaw box.
> > Thanks, Darrell
> >
> >
>
>
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:28:35 -0600, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>Vertically? Always. Browse Duginske's "Band Saw Handbook"
>>for "coplanar", Keets.
>
>And what happens to co-planar when you track your band, ehh
>Lare?
"Coplanarity" is perfection. "Something close" and "whatever
tracks" are reality. Any other Qs?
--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
"Bridger" wrote in message
> the blade isn't a wheel. it's a band. no gyroscopic effect. not enough
> mass to make enough difference to matter anyhow...
ok, I see what you mean, though I don't agree with you. I think the
combination of forces acting on the blade are more than enough to have an
effect, especially as the blade gets larger.
--
Greg
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:10:51 GMT, "Groggy" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Bridger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:55:00 GMT, "Groggy" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ...
>> >>
>> >> No, it simply resists turning due to gyroscopic effects.
>> >
>> >In which case Larry, trying to turn within two dfferent planes would not
>be
>> >a good thing, equilibrium wise.
>>
>> come on.... two wheels, two spindles....
>
>Not sure what you mean Bridger, I may be dense, but I see three "wheels"
>(blade) and two spindles. It is the blade that is out of equilibrium as it
>is trying to ride both wheels; each in their own plane - if only marginally.
the blade isn't a wheel. it's a band. no gyroscopic effect. not enough
mass to make enough difference to matter anyhow...
George wrote:
>Seriously, if you can be,
I can and I am.
>consider that the stress on the bearings will be
>greater if the hubs are not in the same plane.
You'll have to get out the chalk for this one and es'plain
it with the wee small werds onna count of the bearings on
any given band saw with any given blade will never be in/on
the same plane given the changing of the blade or the
tension applied to the band.
>The process by which the blade tracks does, as you have observed,
>involve compensating for the crown on the tire and the differential
>friction by tilting the rim. Hub remains in the same place, if you do
>point geometry.
Sooooooo, you agree that co-planar is a myth?
>Imagine it would be absolutely critical on a non-crowned wheel.
A non-crowned wheel would be something from a late 70's
vintage Delta 14" band saw, right?
UA100
I have felt your frustration. I have two bandsaws myself. An 18" and a
12". The 18 is easier because I use larger blades on it. Right now I have
a 1/16" blade on my 12". It can be a pain to track. If you have read the
books, then you know the routine but it takes a fine hand to do it.
I make sure my wheels are parallel. I made a jig to do this on my 12". I
put the blade on under moderate tension and spin the top wheel by hand. If
the blade begins moving toward the edge, I tilt the top wheel one way or the
other until the blade movement stops. I usually have to do this a few times
and then I have it. Then I finish tensioning the blade and double check to
make sure the blade still tracks well. I make sure it runs well under hand
pressure before turning the saw on.
I cut all kinds of things with this very small blade without trouble.
Good luck!
Rob
"Darrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on the
> tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm resawing.
I've
> spent most of my day trying to get a 3/16" blade to stay on. I've read the
> manual and Duginsky's book. Maybe it's me but it's not working. I just
want
> to make my wife a heart shaped bandsaw box.
> Thanks, Darrell
>
>
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:40:38 -0600, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>"Coplanarity" is perfection. "Something close" and "whatever
>>tracks" are reality. Any other Qs?
>
>Yes. You don't know either?
Um, er, uh, what was the question?
--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
Yes they are!
Thanks, Darrell
"Jim Polaski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Darrell" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'm getting very frustrated trying to get smaller blades to stay on the
> > tires. I have a jet 14" closed stand. It just sits unless I'm resawing.
I've
> > spent most of my day trying to get a 3/16" blade to stay on. I've read
the
> > manual and Duginsky's book. Maybe it's me but it's not working. I just
want
> > to make my wife a heart shaped bandsaw box.
> > Thanks, Darrell
> >
> >
>
> While you've read the book, have you checked to see if your wheels are
> aligned to one another?
>
> --
> Jim Polaski
> "The measure of a man is what he will do
> knowing he will get nothing in return."