shellac all shook up; now what?

Zinsser's Seal Coat is dewaxed with atypical shelf life of 3 years
they assert. Their spray can shellac is also dewaxed as wax plugs the
spray tip. The rest of their stuff is waxy. I buy flakes mostly from
Homestead and store flakes and mixed in garage fridge. Flakes mixed
has a shelf life of about 3 months.

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 03:20:47 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Well, there's a little more to it than that. You can buy dewaxed out of a
>can. They call it "Seal Coat" I think. You can buy dewaxed flakes too, I
>think.

In article <[email protected]>, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:

> It came out looking pretty good, incidentally.

I'm using some orange LV flakes on some maple shelves I'm building for
the office. Padded it on. Love the way it looks.

djb

--
"Modern technology has enabled us to communicate and organize with speed and
efficiency never before possible. People have gotten less competent to
compensate for this." - CW

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 03:43:18 -0500, the inscrutable Silvan
<[email protected]> spake:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:59:53 -0500, the inscrutable Silvan
>> <[email protected]> spake:
>>
>>>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>> TWO THIRDS? Snap a shot of that crap and post it somewhere, will ya?
>>>> I think Rob might be interested. <ww,nn,saynomore>
>>>
>>>I'll get a picture of what it looks like now. It has settled to about 1/4
>>>to 1/3 waxy stuff.
>>
>> Uh, that's quite a difference.
>
>Here's a picture:
>
>http://users.adelphia.net/~silvan/monsieur-jaques.png

Cute. Real cute, buttwipe. ;)


>I had to mechanically doctor it to bring out the contrast. I could expose
>for the jar, at the expense of everything else, or I could expose for the
>whole scene, at the expense of not enough contrast in the jar. Fortunately
>there was just enough contrast that I could pick out the right region with
>the magic wand. Although I didn't bother doing a particularly pretty
>selection.

Never fear. You got your message(s) across.


>> I was thinking "real shellac", y'know, BLONDE. Sorry.
>
>For blonde, I just use the can stuff. $6 a can I think, no fuss, no muss.
>I wanted to do something different. You know, experiment and stuff.

Blondes come in cans now? Kewl!


>>>to leave well enough alone and go spend the time I've saved contemplating
>>>the meaning of my belly button lint.

That reminds me, Mom got a real hoot out of the pierced navel jewelry
I sent to her for her 80th birthday last week. Oddly enough, she is
not even considering installing it. Go figure.


>> If you don't decant, you'll soon come to regret that fact.
>> DAMHIKT.
>
>DECAYYYYUNT, DEEEECAYYYYYYUNT NOWAH ORAH FACEUH THE WRATHAH OFAH THE
>WOODWORKINGAH GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWDZAH.

No, if you don't decant now, you'll accidentally slather some of the
bug guts on a prized piece before you realize it.


>>>The only thing I'm going to put over it is paste wax.
>>
>> Na worries, Mate.
>
>This batch is going on some jigs, and a pinewood derby car. It's not worth
>decanting, I don't think.

See above.


>> WHAT? Heaven forfend! NO JIGS? What kind of wooddorker ARE you?
>
>I'm currently jigless because I bought a new TS and haven't finished making
>a new round of newer/better/improveder jigs for it yet. I expect the saw
>to last a few years, so I'm taking the time to make really nice jigs that
>will last, and be flexible.

Oh, OK. You're off te hook.


>> No router whipping of cream in the kitchen for a long while, eh?
>
>That wasn't me. I haven't used a router in the kitchen in years, and that
>was only because way back when I didn't have any other place to do my
>woodworking. :)

"My misteak." he beefed.


>I sure do have a well equipped shop now, for all that I still pine for new
>cast iron idolatry. There was a time when all I had was a B&D jigsaw, a
>Crapsman routah, a cheap Popular Mechanics miter box and backsaw, an
>electric drill, a hammer, a cheap PM combo square, and some screwdrivers.
>Oh, and let's not forget the B&D orbital wrist vibrator.

I still have my B&D orbital 1/4 pad wrist wrecker which I bought for a
client's house when I repaired some plaster in their kitchen. I was
all set to learn plastering when he slid a 5 gallon bucket of drywall
mud at me. I'm surprised either of us (or the B&D) survived that. What
a dusty MESS! Thinking quickly, I warned his wife what was about to
happen before I started. We masked off the kitchen from the rest of
the house and I put 1/4" of dust in every nook and cranny of that
kitchen. I was white-haired on the way home.


>Since you probably have looked at the picture by now, I'll tell you what it
>says. It didn't turn out so well.
>
>NEW FROM MTV NETWORKS
>
>The rest should be self evident. :)

Wee, mon sewer. What's a Jaque Jass? ;)


>(Yeah, I *do* need to get a life. It's all lost at that resolution, but I
>did a nice job of shading and crosshatching all of that.)

Sure ya did. Any architect would hire you in a second, right?


--
The clear and present danger of top-posting explored at:
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------------------------------------------------------
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Silvan wrote:

> OK, I'm trying flakes for the first time. I'm attempting to make a 1#
> cut.
>
> So I poured 2 cups of alkie-haul in a quart jar, then I measured out 2 oz.
> of flakes using a cheapo diet scale. I ground up the flakes in SWMBO's
> handy-chopper. Hope she doesn't mind. :)
>
> Then I added the flakes to the alkie-haul and commenced shaking. At first
> I thought it was completely insane to think that you could ever dissolve
> the
> dry equivalent of about 3 cups of powder in 2 cups of liquid. I shook,
> and shook, and shook, and nothing happened.
>
> I let it sit a minute or two, then I did a new round of shaking. After
> about four good sloshes, something magic happened right before my eyes.
> Instead of brown liquid on top of a conblafulation of gooey looking,
> translucent flakes sticking to everything, I suddenly had a jar full of
> what looks like coffee with a drop of milk added to it. Amazingly, it's
> only something like 18 fl. oz.
>
> Is it actually done that fast? I was under the impression it took days
> weeks to dissolve fully. I see all the knees and elbows and stuff I need
> to get rid of at the bottom. I'm thinking I might ought to just let it
> sit
> for a good bit and then pour off the liquid into another jar. Decant and
> de-knee in one step.
>
> I'm also thinking, come to think of it, that 1# cut is a little annoying
> to
> use. I should add a little more. Maybe another ounce to make a 1.5# cut.
> I think that's what I wound up with last time, with the Bullseye stuff.
> 3# was too thick, 1# was so thin that I had to do 30 coats just to get the
> film to rise above miniscule undulations in the wood grain. So yes, I
> think I'll go add another ounce of flakes while I've got everything out
> anyway.
>
> Anyway, this was pretty painless if it was that easy. And this should
> probably still be good until the first of May, at least?
>
> I can't wait to see what color this comes out. I had the impression that
> "orange" shellac was more of an amber poly type color, but it's more like
> coffee. It ought to be good for making purplish KD walnut look more like
> walnut is supposed to look, but it might be too overpowering on maple or
> mahogany. I'll have to try it and find out, won't I? :)
>
> When can I try it? Can I try it now? Tomorrow? Friday? Once it has
> apparently dissolved, is that the end of the prep work and time to get out
> some raw wood to play with? Or do I probably have a huge glob of
> undissolved lurking in there, which keeps sloshing out of view, and will
> only reveal itself after this brew has settled completely?
>


You can try it as soon as you pour the alcohol in. But my advice is to let
it sit until all the gooey stuff on the bottom gets taken up into the
alcohol. Then you know what cut you are dealing with and it will also go
what you are putting it on the wood in the first place for.

It will last long enough to make you forget when you actually cooked off
this batch.

Deb

Silvan wrote:
> the ~40 F temperature I did it at. I haven't decanted it yet because
the
> milky stuff is still finely suspended, but I've given it a little
test dip

that would be the wax residue. Let it sit quietly for a few days
and decant. Or if you got no probs with wax (no frnch polish in
your horizon) then go ahead and use it as is.


> on wood than it did in the jar. I can see using it over blonde
because
> sometimes blonde is just too revealing of the fact that a wood
doesn't have

Yeah, blondes have that problem...
<d&r>


> It was ridiculously easy to make compared to all the tales of woe
I've read
> here. I think I'm sold on doing it this way. Better than buying a
can and
> wasting some portion of it. Mix as needed.
Bingo. But the can stuff has its uses, so don't be shy.

firstjois wrote:
>
> Oh, boy, now, I'm confused. I thought the whole idea behind buying
the
> flakes is that there would be no wax. Otherwilse wouldn't you just
get the
> stuff out of the can?

Not really. De-waxed or not is a type of shellac,
if it comes in flakes or pre-mixed is simply a
distribution choice. What you can't get (usually)
pre-mixed is the variety you get with flakes.

No sweat, though: removing the wax is as simple as
decanting or filtering that "milky" stuff you talked
about. Or just ignoring it if your particular finish
target doesn't bother with wax.

Silvan wrote:
> firstjois wrote:
>
> > Oh, boy, now, I'm confused. I thought the whole idea behind buying
the
> > flakes is that there would be no wax. Otherwilse wouldn't you just
get
> > the stuff out of the can?
>
> Well, there's a little more to it than that. You can buy dewaxed out
of a
> can. They call it "Seal Coat" I think. You can buy dewaxed flakes
too, I
> think.
>
> I bought these flakes for a coupla good reasons.
>
> * Zinsner doesn't market shellac in any flavor other than vanilla
AFAIK.
> (Blonde.) I wanted to try orange, because I actually used to like
the
> ambering effect of poly, but I like the working qualities of shellac
> better. I wanted to explore the options for toning without staining.

Yeah, they sell amber (which is orange)in the same 3 lb cut as their
blonde). They don't sell an amber dewaxed as far as I know.

> * I wasted a good third of my last can of shellac because it went bad
before
> I used it up. I do small projects. I can mix flakes in small
batches.

The Zinsner should last much longer than your just mixed batch.
Obviously the unmixed flakes will far outlast the Zinsner. Based on
comparitive costs, I find that I could toss half the Zinsner (18 oz of
a 32 oz can) cheaper than making my own 18 oz of shellac. You are far
more limited in your flavors, however.

> * I wanted to mix some flakes just for the Dorker Points. I are a
real
> dorker now that I have taken granulated bug spoo and turned it into
wood
> finish.
>
> * I was too cheap to pay for dewaxed flakes.
>
> It came out looking pretty good, incidentally. I've got four coats
on a
> walnut scrap now. I'm not quite convinced I like the color after
all, but
> at least I still get the Dorker Points. If I wind up not using it on
> walnut, I'll use it on something else. It looks good on maple and
oak.
> Not so impressive on greenish poplar, but that's not a great
surprise.
> Haven't tried on Jum's finest yet.

I like amber on walnut. It seems to deepen and mellow the look. Using
the amber on pine gives an old fashion look that I kinda like but the
wife and daughter detest. Needless to say, the only amber shellac on
pine at my house is on my shop cabinets.
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
> http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>That reminds me, Mom got a real hoot out of the pierced navel jewelry
>I sent to her for her 80th birthday last week. Oddly enough, she is
>not even considering installing it. Go figure.
>

*NEXT* time, remember to send the lubricant along. Navel Jelly, that is.

Dr. Deb wrote:

> You can try it as soon as you pour the alcohol in. But my advice is to
> let it sit until all the gooey stuff on the bottom gets taken up into the
> alcohol. Then you know what cut you are dealing with and it will also go
> what you are putting it on the wood in the first place for.

Well, as far as I can figure, all the gooey stuff is really gone, just that
quick. Even after I went back and dumped another ounce of raw, un-crushed
flakes in there. Amazing. I figured it would take days. Especially at
the ~40 F temperature I did it at. I haven't decanted it yet because the
milky stuff is still finely suspended, but I've given it a little test dip
on a scrap from every species I had laying around. It looks a *lot* better
on wood than it did in the jar. I can see using it over blonde because
sometimes blonde is just too revealing of the fact that a wood doesn't have
as much color as I'd like.

It was ridiculously easy to make compared to all the tales of woe I've read
here. I think I'm sold on doing it this way. Better than buying a can and
wasting some portion of it. Mix as needed.

I'm using flakes from Lee Valley BTW, if anyone cares.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Larry Jaques wrote:

> Hint: Do NOT tell her. She'll bust a stitch whappin y'all upside the
> haid.

Us all? I'm a little confused by that. You do realize that y'all is a
plural subject pronoun, don't you?

ah we
you y'all
s/he/it they

>>dry equivalent of about 3 cups of powder in 2 cups of liquid. I shook,
>>and shook, and shook, and nothing happened.
>
> Did you warm the jar of solution in hot water? It speeds things up.
> Use denatured alky instead of isopropyl? It also speeds things up.

I didn't warm it, no. Yes, it's good drinkin' hootch with some wood
squeezin's mixed in. Fresh can. A can designed by imbeciles too. I made
a hell of a mess trying to pour it into a jar. Luckily denatured alcohol
is also the stuff they put in spray cans and sell as ice melter, so all it
did was melt some of the snleet in on my shop porch. I had the good sense
not to try to pour it inside my wooden shop, which turned out to be a
really good thing. :)

> The milky substance is water and/or wax. Let it precipitate out and
> pour off the pure liquid above it. That's your dewaxed sheelacky.

Seems to be a touch business, that. Breathe on it good, and it stirs back
up. I should think about some clever way to siphon it off, rather than
pour.

Will the gunk take up less and less space eventually? Right now the jar is
about 2/3 gunk, 1/3 pure dewaxed shellac. If I siphon this off, I don't
get much shellac for my trouble. Either way, what do I do with the jar of
ultra waxy leftovers? I got rid of the last of my last batch of (canned)
shellac by using it to get the Yule bonfire off to a good start. I hate to
waste 2/3 of a jar of this stuff though if there's some use for it.
(Although I'm hoping the ratio of gunk to black coffee will improve by
morning.)

> Yes, decant and repent, sinner. Elbows and knees? You didn't buy
> any of the pure stuff from our Saint of Sheelack, didja? Foo.
> He sold the pure sh*t, man. Da kine.

Probably not any elbows and knees. There's a little bit of random black
crap in the bottom.

> Once you wipe it on a piece of wood (thin coats, right?) it's
> considerably lighter than the coffee color you see now because
> it's not diffusing light through 3-5" of finish.

Yeah, it looks pretty good. I'm going to have to hurry up and get something
ready to finish with it, n'est-ce pas?

I'm not sure if I like this on walnut or not. I'll have to experiment. It
does good things for maple assuredly.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

firstjois wrote:

> Oh, boy, now, I'm confused. I thought the whole idea behind buying the
> flakes is that there would be no wax. Otherwilse wouldn't you just get
> the stuff out of the can?

Well, there's a little more to it than that. You can buy dewaxed out of a
can. They call it "Seal Coat" I think. You can buy dewaxed flakes too, I
think.

I bought these flakes for a coupla good reasons.

* Zinsner doesn't market shellac in any flavor other than vanilla AFAIK.
(Blonde.) I wanted to try orange, because I actually used to like the
ambering effect of poly, but I like the working qualities of shellac
better. I wanted to explore the options for toning without staining.

* I wasted a good third of my last can of shellac because it went bad before
I used it up. I do small projects. I can mix flakes in small batches.

* I wanted to mix some flakes just for the Dorker Points. I are a real
dorker now that I have taken granulated bug spoo and turned it into wood
finish.

* I was too cheap to pay for dewaxed flakes.

It came out looking pretty good, incidentally. I've got four coats on a
walnut scrap now. I'm not quite convinced I like the color after all, but
at least I still get the Dorker Points. If I wind up not using it on
walnut, I'll use it on something else. It looks good on maple and oak.
Not so impressive on greenish poplar, but that's not a great surprise.
Haven't tried on Jum's finest yet.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Dave Hall wrote:

> The Zinsner should last much longer than your just mixed batch.
> Obviously the unmixed flakes will far outlast the Zinsner. Based on
> comparitive costs, I find that I could toss half the Zinsner (18 oz of
> a 32 oz can) cheaper than making my own 18 oz of shellac. You are far
> more limited in your flavors, however.

It should have lasted longer than it did. I must conclude that it was old
when I bought it. Most of the cans have a liberal coating of dust, which
is not encouraging.

Anyway, I turned bug spoo into wood finish. That was pretty cool everything
else aside.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Conan the Librarian wrote:

> Silvan wrote:
>
>> Us all? I'm a little confused by that. You do realize that y'all is a
>> plural subject pronoun, don't you?
>
> You must not be from the south. "All y'all" is the plural. :-)

What part of the south are you from? I live in Virginia. I spend my
working hours in the Carolinas, occasionally Georgia. Now admittedly I
haven't met too many people in Georgia who weren't misplaced Yankees, but
South Carolina is still about as southern as southern gets. They say it
the same way we do here. "You" is singular, "y'all" is plural.

I'm a language dork. I observe things about regional dialects in my
travels. I think I would have picked up on it if it were really common for
southerners to use "y'all" as a singular pronoun. It's certainly not
common here.

OTOH, I've met a lot of visiting Yankees who think it's cute to drive up to
the house and say "Do youuuuuuuuu awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwllllll know where
ahhhhhh kiin fahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhnnd th dawwwwwwwwwwwwwg
powwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnd?" Like they think I must be mentally retarded because
I'm a southerner. It annoys me.

> I even tried using a coffee filter just to see how it worked, but I
> don't recommend that unless you have a lot of time. :-) (But the
> shellac sure came out nice and clean.)

I tried that once to strain the oil in my fryer. I know just what you mean.
Works great. After about ten minutes, you dump all the oil down the drain
and open a new jug. The oil comes out clean like new. :)

(Not that I would admit to frying food in a big vat full of oil in this day
and age. Heavens no. I meant the water in my tofu steamer.)

> stirs and then put the lid on the jar (I put in on a bit loosely just in
> case there's any pressure built up from the heat plus alcohol).

Now that's an interesting thought there. I didn't use any particular heat,
but I noticed the first couple of times I opened the jar, it was under some
internal pressure. There was also a visible wisp of some out-gassed
something wafting out of the jar. I wonder what that was all about.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Joe Wells wrote:

> Does the random black crap look like bug parts? Didja get ahold of some
> buttonlac or something?

No. Orange shellac flakes from Lee Valley. There's no telling what it is,
really. Bug parts, tree bark, bits of rock, it could be anything. There's
not much of it. In two cups of volume plus change, there's maybe 1/16
teaspoon or less of random black dots at the bottom of the jar. It's
heavy, and settles out of suspension quickly.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Joe Wells wrote:

>>>>dry equivalent of about 3 cups of powder in 2 cups of liquid. I shook,
>>>>and shook, and shook, and nothing happened.
>
> Does this sound off to anyone? I don't think I've ever used more shellac
> (by volume) than alcohol. The blonde I have from Rockler sez 2oz (about
> 1/2 cup of flakes) of shellac in 8ox (1 cup) of alcohol for a 2# cut.

I honestly didn't measure it with a measuring cup. I was just
guesstimating. I had to fill the little hopper on the scale a little past
brimming to get the weight right.

How much does the little hopper hold? Damfino. I just know it sure took a
lot more than I would have figured. I was amazed that it dissolved to add
only at most two more ounces of liquid volume to the jar.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Larry Jaques wrote:

> TWO THIRDS? Snap a shot of that crap and post it somewhere, will ya?
> I think Rob might be interested. <ww,nn,saynomore>

I'll get a picture of what it looks like now. It has settled to about 1/4
to 1/3 waxy stuff.

> Crikey, wouldja
> look at their prices?

Exorbitant? I was already ordering something else at the time, and threw
the shellac in as an afterthought. I know about shellac.net, but you can't
order online. You have to pick up the phone and talk to a human being in
real time. I hate that.

> It almost sounds like you tried to use drugstore iso. That's only 70%
> alky and 30% -water-.

No, it's not milky like water. It's just wax. It was a fresh can of
denatured alcohol with the metal seal intact, incidentally. I also
minimized the amount of time it was open to air, so the chances that it got
moisture in it are near zero.

> Oh, you got the cheapo orange, dincha? Live and learn. Get a paint
> filter to get the detritus out, then put the jar at an angle so the
> wax goes to the bottom. Siphon from the bottom.

Actually, for everything I foresee doing with this batch, I see no
particular reason to bother decanting it. I will never dip a brush far
enough to get to the little bit of detritus at the bottom, so I'm inclined
to leave well enough alone and go spend the time I've saved contemplating
the meaning of my belly button lint.

> OR, just use that for topcoats and don't put anything over it. (I
> never figured out why folks mix and match finishes, anyway. Silly
> YBs with their "finishing schedules" and all that rot. Oy vay.)

The only thing I'm going to put over it is paste wax.

>>Yeah, it looks pretty good. I'm going to have to hurry up and get
>>something ready to finish with it, n'est-ce pas?

> Do all your jigs with it.

I don't currently have any jigs. I'm still in the process of building the
new sled for the new saw, and I'm taking a long time because I'm being so
anal about it. Trying to build something that will last for years, since I
expect to keep this saw a long time. For what I do, it may last me until I
kill it.

> What color did you say it was? Oh, and next time, try the Indian bug
> spit from www.woodfinishingsupplies.com . I think Russ might get his

Ah. I didn't have them on my radar. I'll look, next time, which will
probably be a year from now. I don't reach the finishing stage very often.
I haven't actually completed a serious project for over a year now, come to
think of it.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Larry Jaques wrote:

> On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:59:53 -0500, the inscrutable Silvan
> <[email protected]> spake:
>
>>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>> TWO THIRDS? Snap a shot of that crap and post it somewhere, will ya?
>>> I think Rob might be interested. <ww,nn,saynomore>
>>
>>I'll get a picture of what it looks like now. It has settled to about 1/4
>>to 1/3 waxy stuff.
>
> Uh, that's quite a difference.

Here's a picture:

http://users.adelphia.net/~silvan/monsieur-jaques.png

I had to mechanically doctor it to bring out the contrast. I could expose
for the jar, at the expense of everything else, or I could expose for the
whole scene, at the expense of not enough contrast in the jar. Fortunately
there was just enough contrast that I could pick out the right region with
the magic wand. Although I didn't bother doing a particularly pretty
selection.

> I was thinking "real shellac", y'know, BLONDE. Sorry.

For blonde, I just use the can stuff. $6 a can I think, no fuss, no muss.
I wanted to do something different. You know, experiment and stuff.

>>to leave well enough alone and go spend the time I've saved contemplating
>>the meaning of my belly button lint.

> If you don't decant, you'll soon come to regret that fact.
> DAMHIKT.

DECAYYYYUNT, DEEEECAYYYYYYUNT NOWAH ORAH FACEUH THE WRATHAH OFAH THE
WOODWORKINGAH GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWDZAH.


>>The only thing I'm going to put over it is paste wax.
>
> Na worries, Mate.

This batch is going on some jigs, and a pinewood derby car. It's not worth
decanting, I don't think.

> WHAT? Heaven forfend! NO JIGS? What kind of wooddorker ARE you?

I'm currently jigless because I bought a new TS and haven't finished making
a new round of newer/better/improveder jigs for it yet. I expect the saw
to last a few years, so I'm taking the time to make really nice jigs that
will last, and be flexible.

> No router whipping of cream in the kitchen for a long while, eh?

That wasn't me. I haven't used a router in the kitchen in years, and that
was only because way back when I didn't have any other place to do my
woodworking. :)

I sure do have a well equipped shop now, for all that I still pine for new
cast iron idolatry. There was a time when all I had was a B&D jigsaw, a
Crapsman routah, a cheap Popular Mechanics miter box and backsaw, an
electric drill, a hammer, a cheap PM combo square, and some screwdrivers.
Oh, and let's not forget the B&D orbital wrist vibrator.

Since you probably have looked at the picture by now, I'll tell you what it
says. It didn't turn out so well.

NEW FROM MTV NETWORKS

The rest should be self evident. :)

(Yeah, I *do* need to get a life. It's all lost at that resolution, but I
did a nice job of shading and crosshatching all of that.)

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Conan the Librarian wrote:

>> What part of the south are you from?
>
> I lived in Tennessee for twenty years, and I've been in Texas now
> for twenty five years.

But where was you BORNED at boy? You ain't outta the Yankee woods yet. :)

> IME, here in Texas, "y'all" can be either singular or plural. "All
> y'all" is obviously only plural.

If you say so. I know better than to argue with a man from Texas or
Tennessee either one. But y'all still don't talk right, y'hear me?


> Outgassing from a chemical reaction? Guess we'll have to ask one of
> the scientists ... er, do we even *have* any of those on the wreck?

Probably. We have a dentist. Isn't that close enough? What does the
dentist say?

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George wrote:

>> I honestly didn't measure it with a measuring cup. I was just
>> guesstimating. I had to fill the little hopper on the scale a little
>> past brimming to get the weight right.
>>
>
> Volume is meaningless in solids, as you know, until they are dust. That's
> why you weigh the flakes. I'm sure you can get someone to weigh one ounce
> bags, even if it's the kid on the corner selling weed. Of course you'll
> get twenty to the pound there.

Huh? I *have* a scale (which I bought for weighing pinewood derby cars, not
weed.) I was measuring this by weight. I realize there's no correleation
between weight and volume, but I was still surprised at how much volume it
took to get the weight right, and how little it wound up displacing once it
dissolved. Kinda like, yes, how a foot of snow melts into 1/2" of water or
so.

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Larry Jaques wrote:

>>Here's a picture:
>>
>>http://users.adelphia.net/~silvan/monsieur-jaques.png
>
> Cute. Real cute, buttwipe. ;)

That's dingleberry to you. I knew you'd approve.

>>For blonde, I just use the can stuff. $6 a can I think, no fuss, no muss.
>>I wanted to do something different. You know, experiment and stuff.

> Blondes come in cans now? Kewl!

Well, they *can* come in cans, but it's probably better for them when they
come in boxes.

> No, if you don't decant now, you'll accidentally slather some of the
> bug guts on a prized piece before you realize it.

I doubt it. Most of the bottom third is just wax. Decanting to pull off
the dewaxed would waste 1/3 of my brew, so it's probably sufficient in this
case just to pour off 90-95% of it carefully and leave the worst bits of
rocks and rabbit dander at the bottom.

>>a new round of newer/better/improveder jigs for it yet. I expect the saw
>>to last a few years, so I'm taking the time to make really nice jigs that
>>will last, and be flexible.
>
> Oh, OK. You're off te hook.

It's actually taking a looooooong time to make my new crosscut/miter sled.
I'm on version two already, and I still haven't gotten one to come out with
tight enough tolerances. I never should have bought that damn dial
indicator. :) My last big project came out beautifully, and I built it
with a POS saw that was probably off by 0.010" or more in every critical
area.

>>That wasn't me. I haven't used a router in the kitchen in years, and that
>>was only because way back when I didn't have any other place to do my
>>woodworking. :)

> "My misteak." he beefed.

That first routah experience was a hoot too, thinking back. Crapsman routah
with a non-carbide bit. I tried routing an ogee on some jummy wood with no
workbench, no clamps, no hold-downs, and no routah table. I made a LOT of
smoke, put some dents in a few things, and almost routed Little Silvan off.
It's probably why I still hate routers, and have never again used a router
that wasn't secured firmly in a table.

> mud at me. I'm surprised either of us (or the B&D) survived that. What
> a dusty MESS! Thinking quickly, I warned his wife what was about to
> happen before I started. We masked off the kitchen from the rest of
> the house and I put 1/4" of dust in every nook and cranny of that
> kitchen. I was white-haired on the way home.

I bought mine originally to sand Bondo on my beeeyootiful 1979 Bondo Nova.
I got rather good at doing Bondo, since the surrounding metal would get new
holes in it after a year or two, and the old work would inevitably fall
off. Nothin' like that first rust bucket. I learned to work on cars on
that thing, and to hate working on cars on that thing. I had some amusing
misadventures. Like the time I almost lost my flywheel, or the time my
rebuilt carburettor made the engine run at about 14,300 RPM (and I thought
maybe it would stop revving so high if I put it in gear... LMAO!!!)

> Wee, mon sewer. What's a Jaque Jass? ;)

Only a real jaques-ass would fail to understand what a drop cap is. Yeesh.

>>(Yeah, I *do* need to get a life. It's all lost at that resolution, but I
>>did a nice job of shading and crosshatching all of that.)

> Sure ya did. Any architect would hire you in a second, right?

Um, probably not. I don't know Jacques Shitte about CAD and stuff.

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http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Larry Jaques wrote:

> No, I meant pour the liquid through a sieve to remove the bugs.
> You'd have a real bitch of a time trying to dewax it, though it
> could be done...with the patience of some old dead religious dude.

Oh. Right. Well, we agree then. Don't tell anyone I said that. I have a
reputation to protect.

> I should redo mine and salvage the BB ply for other smaller jigs.
> Ah reckon I should have used the 2' square rather than the quick
> square to set the rear rail, huh? It's about 1/16" out at a foot.

I'm in a similar boat.

>>misadventures. Like the time I almost lost my flywheel, or the time my
>>rebuilt carburettor made the engine run at about 14,300 RPM (and I thought
>>maybe it would stop revving so high if I put it in gear... LMAO!!!)

> Remind me to -never- visit you when you're working on a car.
> (Gotcher scatter shield wrapped around that bell housing, son?)
> http://www.machv.com/stainsteelsc.html

Aw, that was 400,000 years ago.

>>Only a real jaques-ass would fail to understand what a drop cap is.
>>Yeesh.
>
> Large first letters used in signs generally apply to all lines they
> cover, such as Jake's Joint, Len's Lounge, Silvie's Sweatshop.

Hrm. I won't argue, since I haven't paid that much attention to signs.

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Anonymous wrote:

> "Y'all come back now", she said. Then, turning to my cousin and I, she
> pointedly commented "All 'cept you-uns, of course."
>
> (I'm originally from WV and that was the last thing I ever heard at least
> three of my aunts say. I just never saw them again ... wasn't even told of
> their funerals.)

You-uns or y'uns is more of a coal country thing, up and down the
Appalachians.

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Xane T. wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 15:48:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
> <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>>No, I meant pour the liquid through a sieve to remove the bugs.
>>You'd have a real bitch of a time trying to dewax it, though it
>>could be done...with the patience of some old dead religious dude.
>
> I do seem to remember someone quite awhile back saying that their
> shellac was left in the workshop in the winter, and it hardened the
> wax into one giant lump, thus making it dewaxed. A freezer should work
> just as well. The cold shouldn't have any bad effect on the shellac
> itself, might even slow down the process by which it detiriorates.

Speaking of shellac, I finally tried it. Wow! I did the same 1.5# cut with
the can stuff last go round. Either the extra stabilizer compounds they
put in the canned stuff change its working properties considerably, or that
can was further over the hill than I thought. It's a night and day
difference. The Zinsner was taking about 30 minutes for a 1.5# cut to dry
tack free, and maybe a day or three to dry where you couldn't press your
fingerprints into it. This home brewed orange is reaching tack free in
about 11.5 seconds, and plenty hard in 15 minutes, except for some
particularly gooey runs that take maybe an hour to cure up.

Gots t'be extremely careful not to cover the same ground twice, but the
results are really, really nice. Me likey. Me much much likey. This is a
keeper.

It's being used to spiff up a walnut pinewood derby car that's turning out
great. We're probably both going to lose our ass on the race this year,
but who cares. We be stylin. 90% walnut, 10% pine, shaped and carved, and
shellacked. It's almost enough to make me want to make something out of
pine, I have to say. Where the pine was scuffed or bruised or otherwise
distressed, it took up much more shellac. It also picked up more of the
color in certain parts of the grain pattern were the tubes were tube-ier I
guess. The result looks pretty spectacular to be a crappy piece of
jummywood. Orange shellac looks very good on pine.

Five or six coats in toto. I forget exactly how many. Tomorrow we'll knock
off any little drips that remain, and then hit it with the 0000 steel wool
and Johnson's. The spiffiest pair of walnut pinewood derby cars ever made,
I expect. His is a, um, something, and mine is a different kind of
something that looks vaguely like the front end of a Dodge Viper grafted
onto the ass end of the Ghostbusters mobile. We be stylin'.

Web site to follow once I get the rest of the pictures processed. (I never
bothered to enter the adult race before, but this is our last derby until I
have heirs. We wanted to go all out. I made two blanks, just in case, and
he got the first one right, so I went ahead and made one for me too. I've
got pictures of the whole thing from beginning to end, to prove to the
world that my kid really did all this cool stuff.)

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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Patriarch wrote:

> Three of us had a great time.
>
> Maybe I'll do a car stand for him.

If you slap a piece of walnut on a faceplace with screws and then turn a
pedestal out of it, watch out for the screws! DAMHIKT. :(

Ours are all done except the final weigh-in and dial-in to get the weight
right. They are called "Walnut Wonder" and "Silvan's Elite Ride"
respectively. It's the first time I've actually entered the adult race,
which I always found sort of ridiculous in past years. I guess I wanted to
say me too before it's too late.

I'll post pictures shortly. Haven't had time to sort all the latest crop of
stuff out yet.

--
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:46:29 -0500, the inscrutable Silvan
<[email protected]> spake:

>OK, I'm trying flakes for the first time. I'm attempting to make a 1# cut.
>
>So I poured 2 cups of alkie-haul in a quart jar, then I measured out 2 oz.
>of flakes using a cheapo diet scale. I ground up the flakes in SWMBO's
>handy-chopper. Hope she doesn't mind. :)

Hint: Do NOT tell her. She'll bust a stitch whappin y'all upside the
haid.


>Then I added the flakes to the alkie-haul and commenced shaking. At first I
>thought it was completely insane to think that you could ever dissolve the
>dry equivalent of about 3 cups of powder in 2 cups of liquid. I shook, and
>shook, and shook, and nothing happened.

Did you warm the jar of solution in hot water? It speeds things up.
Use denatured alky instead of isopropyl? It also speeds things up.


>I let it sit a minute or two, then I did a new round of shaking. After
>about four good sloshes, something magic happened right before my eyes.
>Instead of brown liquid on top of a conblafulation of gooey looking,
>translucent flakes sticking to everything, I suddenly had a jar full of
>what looks like coffee with a drop of milk added to it. Amazingly, it's
>only something like 18 fl. oz.

The milky substance is water and/or wax. Let it precipitate out and
pour off the pure liquid above it. That's your dewaxed sheelacky.


>Is it actually done that fast? I was under the impression it took days
>weeks to dissolve fully. I see all the knees and elbows and stuff I need
>to get rid of at the bottom. I'm thinking I might ought to just let it sit
>for a good bit and then pour off the liquid into another jar. Decant and
>de-knee in one step.

Yes, decant and repent, sinner. Elbows and knees? You didn't buy
any of the pure stuff from our Saint of Sheelack, didja? Foo.
He sold the pure sh*t, man. Da kine.


>I'm also thinking, come to think of it, that 1# cut is a little annoying to
>use. I should add a little more. Maybe another ounce to make a 1.5# cut.
>I think that's what I wound up with last time, with the Bullseye stuff. 3#
>was too thick, 1# was so thin that I had to do 30 coats just to get the
>film to rise above miniscule undulations in the wood grain. So yes, I
>think I'll go add another ounce of flakes while I've got everything out
>anyway.

Mais oui.


>Anyway, this was pretty painless if it was that easy. And this should
>probably still be good until the first of May, at least?
>
>I can't wait to see what color this comes out. I had the impression that
>"orange" shellac was more of an amber poly type color, but it's more like
>coffee. It ought to be good for making purplish KD walnut look more like
>walnut is supposed to look, but it might be too overpowering on maple or
>mahogany. I'll have to try it and find out, won't I? :)

Once you wipe it on a piece of wood (thin coats, right?) it's
considerably lighter than the coffee color you see now because
it's not diffusing light through 3-5" of finish.


>When can I try it? Can I try it now? Tomorrow? Friday? Once it has
>apparently dissolved, is that the end of the prep work and time to get out
>some raw wood to play with? Or do I probably have a huge glob of
>undissolved lurking in there, which keeps sloshing out of view, and will
>only reveal itself after this brew has settled completely?

Once it's dissolved, it's ready to go. Wipe away!


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"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Joe Wells wrote:
>
> >>>>dry equivalent of about 3 cups of powder in 2 cups of liquid. I
shook,
> >>>>and shook, and shook, and nothing happened.
> >
> > Does this sound off to anyone? I don't think I've ever used more shellac
> > (by volume) than alcohol. The blonde I have from Rockler sez 2oz (about
> > 1/2 cup of flakes) of shellac in 8ox (1 cup) of alcohol for a 2# cut.
>
> I honestly didn't measure it with a measuring cup. I was just
> guesstimating. I had to fill the little hopper on the scale a little past
> brimming to get the weight right.
>

Volume is meaningless in solids, as you know, until they are dust. That's
why you weigh the flakes. I'm sure you can get someone to weigh one ounce
bags, even if it's the kid on the corner selling weed. Of course you'll get
twenty to the pound there.

Seriously, anyone with a postal or diet scale can get a lot closer to
reality than large flakes in a small bottle or dust versus chunk volume
estimates. I make ounces, stuff the baggies in with some reactivated silica
gel in a tightly sealed can, then do my mix in 8-oz containers. I don't
brush the stuff, so the containers are squeeze type, for pad dispensing.

Don't try to make a 2 or 3 pound cut all at one go. Make a dissolved and
decanted one #, then add the next ounce.

"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >>stirs and then put the lid on the jar (I put in on a bit loosely just in
> >>case there's any pressure built up from the heat plus alcohol).
> >
> >
> > Now that's an interesting thought there. I didn't use any particular
heat,
> > but I noticed the first couple of times I opened the jar, it was under
some
> > internal pressure. There was also a visible wisp of some out-gassed
> > something wafting out of the jar. I wonder what that was all about.
>
> Outgassing from a chemical reaction? Guess we'll have to ask one of
> the scientists ... er, do we even *have* any of those on the wreck?
>
>

Bet on ingassing. If he heats the stuff it should be sort of vacuum-packed.
If enough humidity present as it depressurizes - vapor?

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 15:48:30 -0800, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

>No, I meant pour the liquid through a sieve to remove the bugs.
>You'd have a real bitch of a time trying to dewax it, though it
>could be done...with the patience of some old dead religious dude.

I do seem to remember someone quite awhile back saying that their
shellac was left in the workshop in the winter, and it hardened the
wax into one giant lump, thus making it dewaxed. A freezer should work
just as well. The cold shouldn't have any bad effect on the shellac
itself, might even slow down the process by which it detiriorates.

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:59:53 -0500, the inscrutable Silvan
<[email protected]> spake:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> TWO THIRDS? Snap a shot of that crap and post it somewhere, will ya?
>> I think Rob might be interested. <ww,nn,saynomore>
>
>I'll get a picture of what it looks like now. It has settled to about 1/4
>to 1/3 waxy stuff.

Uh, that's quite a difference.


>> Crikey, wouldja
>> look at their prices?
>
>Exorbitant? I was already ordering something else at the time, and threw
>the shellac in as an afterthought. I know about shellac.net, but you can't
>order online. You have to pick up the phone and talk to a human being in
>real time. I hate that.

I was thinking "real shellac", y'know, BLONDE. Sorry.


>Actually, for everything I foresee doing with this batch, I see no
>particular reason to bother decanting it. I will never dip a brush far
>enough to get to the little bit of detritus at the bottom, so I'm inclined
>to leave well enough alone and go spend the time I've saved contemplating
>the meaning of my belly button lint.

If you don't decant, you'll soon come to regret that fact.
DAMHIKT.


>> OR, just use that for topcoats and don't put anything over it. (I
>> never figured out why folks mix and match finishes, anyway. Silly
>> YBs with their "finishing schedules" and all that rot. Oy vay.)
>
>The only thing I'm going to put over it is paste wax.

Na worries, Mate.


>> Do all your jigs with it.
>
>I don't currently have any jigs. I'm still in the process of building the
>new sled for the new saw, and I'm taking a long time because I'm being so
>anal about it. Trying to build something that will last for years, since I
>expect to keep this saw a long time. For what I do, it may last me until I
>kill it.

WHAT? Heaven forfend! NO JIGS? What kind of wooddorker ARE you?


>> What color did you say it was? Oh, and next time, try the Indian bug
>> spit from www.woodfinishingsupplies.com . I think Russ might get his
>
>Ah. I didn't have them on my radar. I'll look, next time, which will
>probably be a year from now. I don't reach the finishing stage very often.
>I haven't actually completed a serious project for over a year now, come to
>think of it.

No router whipping of cream in the kitchen for a long while, eh?


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It isn't difficult at all.
I mix my own and buy zinser. I have found zinser to be of high quality
and I use alot of shellac. Love the way it pops the grain. I use orange
and cut it up with alc. What I especially like is the seal coat which is
really dewaxed shellac... A whole lot less work than dewaxing it myself.
But for a certain look I will still start from flakes, or buttons and
mix different variations... you gotta experiment.... sometimes I like
the look, and sometimes.... well it can't always come out smelling like
roses. buttonlac will take more time than flakes to disolve. Flakes can
be ready in a few minutes... I let it sit a halfhour to an hour anyway..
Then mix again and go. For dewaxed I usually let it sit a day or two
before pulling off the top... And be careful to not move the jar or
shake it up b4 pulling off the top.... otherwise its waxed again.

Silvan wrote:
> OK, I'm trying flakes for the first time. I'm attempting to make a 1# cut.
>
> So I poured 2 cups of alkie-haul in a quart jar, then I measured out 2 oz.
> of flakes using a cheapo diet scale. I ground up the flakes in SWMBO's
> handy-chopper. Hope she doesn't mind. :)
>
> Then I added the flakes to the alkie-haul and commenced shaking. At first I
> thought it was completely insane to think that you could ever dissolve the
> dry equivalent of about 3 cups of powder in 2 cups of liquid. I shook, and
> shook, and shook, and nothing happened.
>
> I let it sit a minute or two, then I did a new round of shaking. After
> about four good sloshes, something magic happened right before my eyes.
> Instead of brown liquid on top of a conblafulation of gooey looking,
> translucent flakes sticking to everything, I suddenly had a jar full of
> what looks like coffee with a drop of milk added to it. Amazingly, it's
> only something like 18 fl. oz.
>
> Is it actually done that fast? I was under the impression it took days
> weeks to dissolve fully. I see all the knees and elbows and stuff I need
> to get rid of at the bottom. I'm thinking I might ought to just let it sit
> for a good bit and then pour off the liquid into another jar. Decant and
> de-knee in one step.
>
> I'm also thinking, come to think of it, that 1# cut is a little annoying to
> use. I should add a little more. Maybe another ounce to make a 1.5# cut.
> I think that's what I wound up with last time, with the Bullseye stuff. 3#
> was too thick, 1# was so thin that I had to do 30 coats just to get the
> film to rise above miniscule undulations in the wood grain. So yes, I
> think I'll go add another ounce of flakes while I've got everything out
> anyway.
>
> Anyway, this was pretty painless if it was that easy. And this should
> probably still be good until the first of May, at least?
>
> I can't wait to see what color this comes out. I had the impression that
> "orange" shellac was more of an amber poly type color, but it's more like
> coffee. It ought to be good for making purplish KD walnut look more like
> walnut is supposed to look, but it might be too overpowering on maple or
> mahogany. I'll have to try it and find out, won't I? :)
>
> When can I try it? Can I try it now? Tomorrow? Friday? Once it has
> apparently dissolved, is that the end of the prep work and time to get out
> some raw wood to play with? Or do I probably have a huge glob of
> undissolved lurking in there, which keeps sloshing out of view, and will
> only reveal itself after this brew has settled completely?
>

Noons wrote:
>> Silvan wrote:
>>> the ~40 F temperature I did it at. I haven't decanted it yet
>>> because the milky stuff is still finely suspended, but I've given
>>> it a little test dip
>>
>> that would be the wax residue. Let it sit quietly for a few days
>> and decant. Or if you got no probs with wax (no frnch polish in
>> your horizon) then go ahead and use it as is.
>>
[snip]

Oh, boy, now, I'm confused. I thought the whole idea behind buying the
flakes is that there would be no wax. Otherwilse wouldn't you just get the
stuff out of the can?

TIA,
Josie

"Conan the Librarian" wrote in message
> Silvan wrote:
>
> > Us all? I'm a little confused by that. You do realize that y'all is a
> > plural subject pronoun, don't you?
>
> You must not be from the south. "All y'all" is the plural. :-)

LOL!

"Plural"? I had that once ... it makes you cough.

> FWIW, I use cheesecloth to strain my shellac. Either buy fine stuff
> or double it. Put cheesecloth over the mouth of a clean container, hold
> it in place with a rubberband around the rim and pour.

Because I often spray shellac, I use those cheap, packaged paint filters
they sell at the BORGS ... they work fine for shellac, IME.

--
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Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> OK, I'm trying flakes for the first time. I'm attempting to make a 1#
> cut.
>
<snip of what sounded like a big kid...>
>
> When can I try it? Can I try it now? Tomorrow? Friday? Once it has
> apparently dissolved, is that the end of the prep work and time to get
> out some raw wood to play with? Or do I probably have a huge glob of
> undissolved lurking in there, which keeps sloshing out of view, and
> will only reveal itself after this brew has settled completely?
>

It really _is_ that easy. It's so easy that even someone as impatient as I
am has to really work to screw it up.

Use a thicker cut if you ever get back to using that lathe of yours, and
rub it on as a friction finish.

The last shellac purchase I made came a week or so ago, from Homestead.
They have the ultra pale, hyper-refined in Germany that seems to best match
the Platina that our resident, ustabe shellac vendor made famous. And was
what I used on the parts of the in-process maple nightstands which have
already been shellacked.

BTW, dealing with Homestead is another of those really nice experiences in
woodworking. Definitely recommended.

Now if I can just get back to that nightstand project...

Patriarch

Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

...
> Is it actually done that fast? I was under the impression it took
> days weeks to dissolve fully. I see all the knees and elbows and
> stuff I need to get rid of at the bottom. I'm thinking I might ought
> to just let it sit for a good bit and then pour off the liquid into
> another jar. Decant and de-knee in one step.

It takes a day or so for mine to fully dissolve, but I don't do the
chopping step that you do.

I'm not sure what you mean by knees and elbows. I use dewaxed flake
shellac which is pretty clean to start with; put it in a clean
container with good alcohol and I don't have a lot of junk to decant.

...
> Anyway, this was pretty painless if it was that easy. And this should
> probably still be good until the first of May, at least?

Probably. I keep mine sealed in a dark cupboard, it lasts many months.

> I can't wait to see what color this comes out. I had the impression
> that "orange" shellac was more of an amber poly type color, but it's
> more like coffee. It ought to be good for making purplish KD walnut
> look more like walnut is supposed to look, but it might be too
> overpowering on maple or mahogany. I'll have to try it and find out,
> won't I? :)

Yeah, it looks very dark in the jar but the coats will look much
lighter. Orange shellac on walnut is awesome, but I can't imagine
orange on maple or mahogany...

> When can I try it? Can I try it now? Tomorrow? Friday? Once it has
> apparently dissolved, is that the end of the prep work and time to get
> out some raw wood to play with? Or do I probably have a huge glob of
> undissolved lurking in there, which keeps sloshing out of view, and
> will only reveal itself after this brew has settled completely?

Once it's dissolved you're ready to go (assuming it's dewaxed and you
aren't trying to decant a waxed shellac).

Try the shellac over linseed oil. I love that look.

Cheers,
Nate

Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>
> It's being used to spiff up a walnut pinewood derby car that's turning
> out great. We're probably both going to lose our ass on the race this
> year, but who cares. We be stylin. 90% walnut, 10% pine, shaped and
> carved, and shellacked. It's almost enough to make me want to make
> something out of pine, I have to say. Where the pine was scuffed or
> bruised or otherwise distressed, it took up much more shellac. It
> also picked up more of the color in certain parts of the grain pattern
> were the tubes were tube-ier I guess. The result looks pretty
> spectacular to be a crappy piece of jummywood. Orange shellac looks
> very good on pine.
>

Sunday, my youngest kid turned 25. I thought I was done for a while,
and have been kinda jealous of some of youse guys, regarding derby cars.
It's been a while for me...

So after church, this 8 year old guy comes up with a large ziplock in
hand, kit inside. Wants me to help with the car. His single mom says
we could use the tools at the community center, probably. "No, we can
do better than that."

We spent two hours yesterday after school in my shop. My eldest son,
30'ish, came over to 'play', too. The little guy got to draw, rasp,
sand and shellac a pretty respectable shaped car, just the way he
wanted. My son sent him home with a kit and instructions on how to
paint it _RED_.

We'll do the weighing and wheel alignment stuff this weekend.

Three of us had a great time.

Maybe I'll do a car stand for him.

Patriarch

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:15:47 -0500, the inscrutable "firstjois"
<[email protected]> spake:

>Noons wrote:
>>> Silvan wrote:
>>>> the ~40 F temperature I did it at. I haven't decanted it yet
>>>> because the milky stuff is still finely suspended, but I've given
>>>> it a little test dip
>>>
>>> that would be the wax residue. Let it sit quietly for a few days
>>> and decant. Or if you got no probs with wax (no frnch polish in
>>> your horizon) then go ahead and use it as is.
>>>
>[snip]
>
>Oh, boy, now, I'm confused. I thought the whole idea behind buying the
>flakes is that there would be no wax. Otherwilse wouldn't you just get the
>stuff out of the can?

You can buy the less expensive shellac (in a range of colors) which
have not been dewaxed, or you can pay more for the dewaxed and
better-filtered stuff.

If his "milk" was more than 5-10 drops worth, he might be inclined to
request a replacement. He was talkin' bug parts, too. Either he bought
the cheap, unfiltered, waxy stuff or someone mixed up the labels, 'cuz
it should have contained neither. His can of alcohol might have picked
up some water if it was previously opened, or there might have been a
bit of moisture in the jar he used which could also have accounted for
the milky stuff. Ideally, there will be little to none. I think I had
two/three drops worth in the Super Blonde O'deen's Special I first
mixed up. Depending upon your use, a little bit won't hurt.


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Silvan wrote:

> Us all? I'm a little confused by that. You do realize that y'all is a
> plural subject pronoun, don't you?

You must not be from the south. "All y'all" is the plural. :-)

> Will the gunk take up less and less space eventually? Right now the jar is
> about 2/3 gunk, 1/3 pure dewaxed shellac. If I siphon this off, I don't
> get much shellac for my trouble. Either way, what do I do with the jar of
> ultra waxy leftovers? I got rid of the last of my last batch of (canned)
> shellac by using it to get the Yule bonfire off to a good start. I hate to
> waste 2/3 of a jar of this stuff though if there's some use for it.
> (Although I'm hoping the ratio of gunk to black coffee will improve by
> morning.)

I'm not optimistic about it dissolving anymore just by sitting
there. As for what to do with the leftovers -- I have used the wax
residue to seal the ends of green wood that's drying in my shop. It
seems to work OK.

FWIW, I use cheesecloth to strain my shellac. Either buy fine stuff
or double it. Put cheesecloth over the mouth of a clean container, hold
it in place with a rubberband around the rim and pour.

I even tried using a coffee filter just to see how it worked, but I
don't recommend that unless you have a lot of time. :-) (But the
shellac sure came out nice and clean.)

Another FWIW, when I mix shellac I pulverize it in a coffee grinder
reserved just for that. I pour the desired amount of alcohol into the
jar and then sprinkle the flakes on top. I set the jar in a bucket
partially filled with hot water (obviously keep any open heat sources
away from this; I just use hot tapwater), give the shellac a couple of
stirs and then put the lid on the jar (I put in on a bit loosely just in
case there's any pressure built up from the heat plus alcohol).

Let it sit for a while and then give it a stir, put some more hot
water in the bucket and re-seal. Repeat as necessary depending on the
temperature in your shop, quality of the shellac, and whether the flakes
are dewaxed or not (or even whether you're using flakes or not;
buttonlac creates a waxy goo that needs a bit more attention than
Paddylac Superblonde).

I usually do this operation the day before I need the shellac, and
come back the next day and strain it. If you need "instant shellac" you
can do the whole operation in an hour or two. You just might have a bit
more residue to strain (and wind up with a thinner cut in the process)


Chuck Vance

Silvan wrote:

> Conan the Librarian wrote:
>
>> You must not be from the south. "All y'all" is the plural. :-)
>
> What part of the south are you from?

I lived in Tennessee for twenty years, and I've been in Texas now
for twenty five years.

> I live in Virginia. I spend my
> working hours in the Carolinas, occasionally Georgia. Now admittedly I
> haven't met too many people in Georgia who weren't misplaced Yankees, but
> South Carolina is still about as southern as southern gets. They say it
> the same way we do here. "You" is singular, "y'all" is plural.
>
> I'm a language dork.

Me too.

> I observe things about regional dialects in my
> travels. I think I would have picked up on it if it were really common for
> southerners to use "y'all" as a singular pronoun. It's certainly not
> common here.

IME, here in Texas, "y'all" can be either singular or plural. "All
y'all" is obviously only plural.

>>stirs and then put the lid on the jar (I put in on a bit loosely just in
>>case there's any pressure built up from the heat plus alcohol).
>
>
> Now that's an interesting thought there. I didn't use any particular heat,
> but I noticed the first couple of times I opened the jar, it was under some
> internal pressure. There was also a visible wisp of some out-gassed
> something wafting out of the jar. I wonder what that was all about.

Outgassing from a chemical reaction? Guess we'll have to ask one of
the scientists ... er, do we even *have* any of those on the wreck?


Chuck Vance (doesn't even play one on tv)

Anonymous <[email protected]> wrote:


>"Y'all come back now", she said. Then, turning to my cousin and I, she
>pointedly commented "All 'cept you-uns, of course."

While I'd like to claim otherwise, we probably have Southerners who
would say "turning to my cousin and I" <G>
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 12:35:22 -0500, the inscrutable Silvan
<[email protected]> spake:

>Larry Jaques wrote:

>> No, if you don't decant now, you'll accidentally slather some of the
>> bug guts on a prized piece before you realize it.
>
>I doubt it. Most of the bottom third is just wax. Decanting to pull off
>the dewaxed would waste 1/3 of my brew, so it's probably sufficient in this
>case just to pour off 90-95% of it carefully and leave the worst bits of
>rocks and rabbit dander at the bottom.

No, I meant pour the liquid through a sieve to remove the bugs.
You'd have a real bitch of a time trying to dewax it, though it
could be done...with the patience of some old dead religious dude.


>It's actually taking a looooooong time to make my new crosscut/miter sled.
>I'm on version two already, and I still haven't gotten one to come out with
>tight enough tolerances. I never should have bought that damn dial
>indicator. :) My last big project came out beautifully, and I built it
>with a POS saw that was probably off by 0.010" or more in every critical
>area.

I should redo mine and salvage the BB ply for other smaller jigs.
Ah reckon I should have used the 2' square rather than the quick
square to set the rear rail, huh? It's about 1/16" out at a foot.


>>>That wasn't me. I haven't used a router in the kitchen in years, and that
>>>was only because way back when I didn't have any other place to do my
>>>woodworking. :)
>
>> "My misteak." he beefed.
>
>That first routah experience was a hoot too, thinking back. Crapsman routah
>with a non-carbide bit. I tried routing an ogee on some jummy wood with no
>workbench, no clamps, no hold-downs, and no routah table. I made a LOT of
>smoke, put some dents in a few things, and almost routed Little Silvan off.
>It's probably why I still hate routers, and have never again used a router
>that wasn't secured firmly in a table.

Wuss. (But a manly one, thanks to not routing off Little Silvan.)


>I bought mine originally to sand Bondo on my beeeyootiful 1979 Bondo Nova.
>I got rather good at doing Bondo, since the surrounding metal would get new
>holes in it after a year or two, and the old work would inevitably fall
>off. Nothin' like that first rust bucket. I learned to work on cars on
>that thing, and to hate working on cars on that thing. I had some amusing
>misadventures. Like the time I almost lost my flywheel, or the time my
>rebuilt carburettor made the engine run at about 14,300 RPM (and I thought
>maybe it would stop revving so high if I put it in gear... LMAO!!!)

Remind me to -never- visit you when you're working on a car.
(Gotcher scatter shield wrapped around that bell housing, son?)
http://www.machv.com/stainsteelsc.html


>> Wee, mon sewer. What's a Jaque Jass? ;)
>
>Only a real jaques-ass would fail to understand what a drop cap is. Yeesh.

Large first letters used in signs generally apply to all lines they
cover, such as Jake's Joint, Len's Lounge, Silvie's Sweatshop.


--
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On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 03:09:24 -0500, the inscrutable Silvan
<[email protected]> spake:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Hint: Do NOT tell her. She'll bust a stitch whappin y'all upside the
>> haid.
>
>Us all? I'm a little confused by that. You do realize that y'all is a
>plural subject pronoun, don't you?

Shore dew.


>ah we
>you y'all
>s/he/it they

I know for damned sure that there's more than one of you in that head
of yours, Eve/Silvie.


>Seems to be a touch business, that. Breathe on it good, and it stirs back
>up. I should think about some clever way to siphon it off, rather than
>pour.

Someone mentioned some newfangled chem lab siphon. Find one of those.


>Will the gunk take up less and less space eventually? Right now the jar is
>about 2/3 gunk, 1/3 pure dewaxed shellac. If I siphon this off, I don't
>get much shellac for my trouble. Either way, what do I do with the jar of
>ultra waxy leftovers? I got rid of the last of my last batch of (canned)
>shellac by using it to get the Yule bonfire off to a good start. I hate to
>waste 2/3 of a jar of this stuff though if there's some use for it.
>(Although I'm hoping the ratio of gunk to black coffee will improve by
>morning.)

TWO THIRDS? Snap a shot of that crap and post it somewhere, will ya?
I think Rob might be interested. <ww,nn,saynomore> Crikey, wouldja
look at their prices?

It almost sounds like you tried to use drugstore iso. That's only 70%
alky and 30% -water-.


>> Yes, decant and repent, sinner. Elbows and knees? You didn't buy
>> any of the pure stuff from our Saint of Sheelack, didja? Foo.
>> He sold the pure sh*t, man. Da kine.
>
>Probably not any elbows and knees. There's a little bit of random black
>crap in the bottom.

Oh, you got the cheapo orange, dincha? Live and learn. Get a paint
filter to get the detritus out, then put the jar at an angle so the
wax goes to the bottom. Siphon from the bottom.

OR, just use that for topcoats and don't put anything over it. (I
never figured out why folks mix and match finishes, anyway. Silly
YBs with their "finishing schedules" and all that rot. Oy vay.)


>Yeah, it looks pretty good. I'm going to have to hurry up and get something
>ready to finish with it, n'est-ce pas?

Do all your jigs with it.


>I'm not sure if I like this on walnut or not. I'll have to experiment. It
>does good things for maple assuredly.

What color did you say it was? Oh, and next time, try the Indian bug
spit from www.woodfinishingsupplies.com . I think Russ might get his
from Saint O'deen's old supplier. (Same country; can't be more than
one supplier, y'think? ;) Super Blonde is $15.95/lb., half that of
the Canuckistani stuff.


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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:46:29 -0500, Silvan wrote:

> When can I try it? Can I try it now? Tomorrow? Friday? Once it has
> apparently dissolved, is that the end of the prep work and time to get out
> some raw wood to play with? Or do I probably have a huge glob of

Don't forget to filter. Unless you're a professional decanter, you'll
pull up some bits you don't want. (IANA shellac guru, but I've decanted,
centrifuged, dialyzed, filtered and otherwise separated lots of thises
from scads of thatses.)

Use a separatory funnel (ebay has 'em) to draw off the waxy gunk at
the bottom. Best way, bar centrifuging, for the home shop. I'm gonna do it
that way as soon as, well, someday. An analytical chemist could post some
more hints and tips.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:15:47 -0500, firstjois wrote:

> Noons wrote:
>>> Silvan wrote:
>>>> the ~40 F temperature I did it at. I haven't decanted it yet because
>>>> the milky stuff is still finely suspended, but I've given it a little
>>>> test dip
>>>
>>> that would be the wax residue. Let it sit quietly for a few days and
>>> decant. Or if you got no probs with wax (no frnch polish in your
>>> horizon) then go ahead and use it as is.
>>>
> [snip]
>
> Oh, boy, now, I'm confused. I thought the whole idea behind buying the
> flakes is that there would be no wax. Otherwilse wouldn't you just get
> the stuff out of the can?

Some flakes are dewaxed, some aren't (Hock is dewaxed, FWIW). The true
beauty of dry shellac is that it keeps damn-near forever and you can mix
any sort of cut that you want.

--
Joe Wells

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 03:09:24 -0500, Silvan wrote:

> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>>dry equivalent of about 3 cups of powder in 2 cups of liquid. I shook,
>>>and shook, and shook, and nothing happened.

Does this sound off to anyone? I don't think I've ever used more shellac
(by volume) than alcohol. The blonde I have from Rockler sez 2oz (about
1/2 cup of flakes) of shellac in 8ox (1 cup) of alcohol for a 2# cut.

<...>
> Will the gunk take up less and less space eventually? Right now the jar
> is about 2/3 gunk, 1/3 pure dewaxed shellac. If I siphon this off, I
> don't get much shellac for my trouble. Either way, what do I do with
> the jar of ultra waxy leftovers? I got rid of the last of my last batch
> of (canned) shellac by using it to get the Yule bonfire off to a good
> start. I hate to waste 2/3 of a jar of this stuff though if there's some
> use for it. (Although I'm hoping the ratio of gunk to black coffee will
> improve by morning.)
>
>> Yes, decant and repent, sinner. Elbows and knees? You didn't buy any of
>> the pure stuff from our Saint of Sheelack, didja? Foo. He sold the
>> pure sh*t, man. Da kine.
>
> Probably not any elbows and knees. There's a little bit of random black
> crap in the bottom.

Does the random black crap look like bug parts? Didja get ahold of some
buttonlac or something?

--
Joe Wells

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 08:49:51 -0600, Conan the Librarian wrote:

> IME, here in Texas, "y'all" can be either singular or plural. "All
> y'all" is obviously only plural.

As is 'you-uns'. Although 'you-uns' seems to subselect from a larger group.

"Y'all come back now", she said. Then, turning to my cousin and I, she
pointedly commented "All 'cept you-uns, of course."

(I'm originally from WV and that was the last thing I ever heard at least
three of my aunts say. I just never saw them again ... wasn't even told of
their funerals.)

Bill

Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:

>Conan the Librarian wrote:
>
>> Silvan wrote:
>>
>>> Us all? I'm a little confused by that. You do realize that y'all is a
>>> plural subject pronoun, don't you?
>>
>> You must not be from the south. "All y'all" is the plural. :-)
>
>What part of the south are you from? I live in Virginia. I spend my
>working hours in the Carolinas, occasionally Georgia. Now admittedly I
>haven't met too many people in Georgia who weren't misplaced Yankees, but
>South Carolina is still about as southern as southern gets. They say it
>the same way we do here. "You" is singular, "y'all" is plural.
>
>I'm a language dork. I observe things about regional dialects in my
>travels. I think I would have picked up on it if it were really common for
>southerners to use "y'all" as a singular pronoun. It's certainly not
>common here.

You are right. The only place I've ever heard "y'all" as singular is
in bad movies (or movies with a bad dialog coach) and GDYs trying to
affect a southern accent.

(Based on my 45+ years in Birmingham, Memphis, and Atlanta, as well as
travels and work in the region.)
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 23:54:44 -0000, the inscrutable
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) spake:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>>
>>That reminds me, Mom got a real hoot out of the pierced navel jewelry
>>I sent to her for her 80th birthday last week. Oddly enough, she is
>>not even considering installing it. Go figure.
>>
>
>*NEXT* time, remember to send the lubricant along. Navel Jelly, that is.

Ouch squared!


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Dave Hall wrote:
>> Silvan wrote:
>>> firstjois wrote:
>>>
Thanks all for explaining waxed and de-waxed shellac and how they are
used/made/bought. Big help.
Josie