Just added dovetails to my repertoire. Took some 3" wide stock, laid out
two large half tails on one piece and a large pin on the other. Using the
miter gauge, a makeshift fence and the exact-i-cut disk on my table saw, I
removed most of the material and cleaned up the rest with a chisel and back
saw. I wasn't too careful so it's kinda chipped and ragged on the edges but
fits together snugly.
Now I much better understand the article in Pop Woodworking's table saw
magazine on a dovetail jig.
I'll have to practice a lot more, though, before I attempt to make drawers
with dovetails.
> I have never understood the infatuation with dovetails. Yeah they
may
> look nice but having grown up in a family that favors antiques, I can
> attest to their structural inferiority. Not one dresser, desk, etc.
has
> a majority of solid dovetails; shrinkage, movement & broken off tails
on
> most have required repair. The other joints are all standing the
test
> of time quite well thank you.
Just for clarification, what are "all the other joints" that are
withstanding the test of time?
Try this online dovetail template generator to set out your joints. It
draws the template.
Enter the dimensions of the wood, and tail setout and it draws the
template, ready to print, fold over end of wood and cut through.
You can change the measurements, angles, tail setout etc and see what
it looks like.
http://www.blocklayer.com/Woodjoints/DovetailEng.aspx
Hi Chuck,
Congrats! Although I have done machined dovetails
using a jig/router, I have never done hand cut ones.
I think if I practiced for a few hours, it might give
me some confidence.
If you have never seen the Frank Klausz video on
"dovetailing a drawer", it is worth the investment
(Fine Woodworking Website). It is amazing to see
him construct several handcut dovetailed drawers that he
fits into a custom desk from scratch in a little
over a half hour. Amazes me every time I watch it.
Lou
In article <[email protected]>, Chuck
Hoffman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Just added dovetails to my repertoire. Took some 3" wide stock, laid out
> two large half tails on one piece and a large pin on the other. Using the
> miter gauge, a makeshift fence and the exact-i-cut disk on my table saw, I
> removed most of the material and cleaned up the rest with a chisel and back
> saw. I wasn't too careful so it's kinda chipped and ragged on the edges but
> fits together snugly.
>
> Now I much better understand the article in Pop Woodworking's table saw
> magazine on a dovetail jig.
>
> I'll have to practice a lot more, though, before I attempt to make drawers
> with dovetails.
>
>
Conan the Librarian wrote:
> ever seen make this claim. My experience has been quite different. On
> all the older furniture I have seen, the dovetails appear to have held
> up just fine. In fact, many times they have held up when it's obvious
> that there is no glue bond to help. And if one tail fails, that doesn't
> make the whole drawer useless.
I'm in your camp. Dovetails seem, to me, to be nearly indestructible. I've
got a lot of second hand stuff that isn't quite old enough to be "antique,"
but is nevertheless well worn.
It has been my experience that DTs will last forever if you take care to
re-glue them if they work loose. The joints I've seen fail to the extent
described by the OP were in a situation where the glue had worked loose,
and the parts were used a great deal with nothing but the mechanical
engagement of the pins and tails to keep the drawer together. After many
years of that abuse, they eventually failed.
Even in that raggedy, ill-treated state, a very lame glue and clamp job of
the mangled joint was sufficient to keep it working for another who knows
how many years. I'd guess maybe that drawer has been going another 10
years since I just slapped some glue on what was left of it and clamped it
for a few hours. I didn't even bother to clean off the old glue. It was
intended to be a temporary fix, but it has lasted for a long time.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
loutent wrote:
>
> Hi Chuck,
>
> Congrats! Although I have done machined dovetails
> using a jig/router, I have never done hand cut ones.
>
> I think if I practiced for a few hours, it might give
> me some confidence.
>
> If you have never seen the Frank Klausz video on
> "dovetailing a drawer", it is worth the investment
> (Fine Woodworking Website). It is amazing to see
> him construct several handcut dovetailed drawers that he
> fits into a custom desk from scratch in a little
> over a half hour. Amazes me every time I watch it.
>
> Lou
Amen to the Frank Klausz video recomendation.
He covers a lot of ground on that tape and
after watching it you want to head to the shop
and try what you just saw.
DON'T!
What you think you learned and what you
actually remember when you get to doing it
will be miles apart. As I said, he covers a
lot of ground, there are lots of details and
the order of operation is critical to success,
or at least passable dovetails. There are
a boatload of ways of screwing up a dove-
tailed drawer. Your first experience at hand-
cutting dovetails can be an exercise in
frustration if you missed or misunderstood
any of what's shown on the tape. Failure
can be discouraging and could turn you off
to doing a very useful joint.
I did a bunch of notes to myself after watching
the tape. Followed the notes, watched the
tape again, revised the notes, followed the
notes, watched the tape, revised the notes ...
The current revised "notes" may save you
some frustration. Download, print and, with
pencil in hand, watch the tape and make
your own revisions to the notes. THEN
go try handcut dovetails.
If you find holes in the "notes" PLEASE
let me know and I'll try and fill in the
gap(s) on the pages.
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/DovetailDrawer0.html
Hope this helps.
charlie b
jlinkels wrote:
> charlie b Wrote:
>>The current revised "notes" may save you
>>some frustration. Download, print and, with
>>pencil in hand, watch the tape and make
>>your own revisions to the notes. THEN
>>go try handcut dovetails.
>>
>>If you find holes in the "notes" PLEASE
>>let me know and I'll try and fill in the
>>gap(s) on the pages.
>>
>>http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/DovetailDrawer0.html
>>
>>Hope this helps.
I'd been waiting to finish my first dovetailed box (I've got one and a
half joints done so far; shop time has been hard to come by this week!)
to post this, but I'll go ahead and say it: Thanks, tremendously, for
that how-to guide. I downloaded a copy of the PDF and printed it out,
took it to the shop with a scrap piece of oak, and cut my very first set
of dovetails. The process made sense, and the joint fits tightly. It's
not pretty yet, but I know where I need to get better on the next one.
> During searches over the Internet and reading some books (The Workbench
> Book by Scott Landis) I learned a few things about Frank Klausz, and I
> have applied the information I could get.
> Frankly, I was surprised by that even *I* was able to cut decent
> dovetails. The more I make, the better they get. But what is more
> important, I get faster in making them. Somehow I always seemed to
> overcut the tails, and it took quite some paring to make them fit. As
> my skills continued to develop, sawing became more accurate, and now it
> often happens that I fit the part together right after chopping out the
> tails. Without any pairing.
> Very relevant was the replacment of the handle of my dovetail saw with
> a homemade one after I read this article:
> 'the way of the saw'
> (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/woodworking/revelations_1.html)
> Sawing has become twice as accurate after I copied this saw handle.
And thank you for that link! That was the one thing I felt like I was
missing after working on the dovetails -- a proper saw. I wasn't too
sure what a really good dovetail saw would look like, but I was pretty
sure it wasn't the one I was using. Now I know, and I know how to get one.
- Brooks
--
The "bmoses-nospam" address is valid; no unmunging needed.
jlinkels wrote:
> Thanks a lot for writing this document and make it available.
What I did was more like transcribing what's on Mr. Klausz's
tape. I'm a visual learner so illustrations work for me.
> I don't
> own any video playback equipment (not because I am too old, but just a
> matter or principle!) so it is not much use buying Frank Klausz'
> video.
Ah - a total neander!
> During searches over the Internet and reading some books (The Workbench
> Book by Scott Landis) I learned a few things about Frank Klausz, and I
> have applied the information I could get.
> Frankly, I was surprised by that even *I* was able to cut decent
> dovetails.
That's the realization I try to encourage. "If even he can
do it then I sure as hell can!"
>The more I make, the better they get.
Works that way for a lot of things.
>But what is more
> important, I get faster in making them. Somehow I always seemed to
> overcut the tails, and it took quite some paring to make them fit.
If you scribe the layout lines they can't be rubbed
off. And if you "leave the line" - just the line - you
can see where you're at. And because they'll always
be a tiny bit "outside" the pins (or tails if you're a
Tails First person) if you cut just TO the waste side of
the scribe line you'll get a pretty good fit with
little if any paring required.
>As
> my skills continued to develop, sawing became more accurate, and now it
> often happens that I fit the part together right after chopping out the
> tails. Without any pairing.
> Very relevant was the replacment of the handle of my dovetail saw with
> a homemade one after I read this article:
> 'the way of the saw'
> (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/woodworking/revelations_1.html)
> Sawing has become twice as accurate after I copied this saw handle.
Another thing that helps when using that type of handle is to
hold it keep a fingers relaxed loose grip instead of a white
knuckle death grip. Let the teeth do their job. With that
kind of handle, there's also a tendency to push the teeth down
onto the wood much harder than necessary, brute forcing
the cut. A relaxed, lighter touch will let the saw do the
cutting rather than ALL your muscles.
> But I also considerably improved my skills using the tips from your
> document. I once read it, lost it, found it back and now I was smart
> enough to save it.
Like most "hard" problems, when you break it down
itnto smaller pieces it gets easier. By the yard it's
hard. By the inch it's a cinch.
> Thanks again.
No problem. Pass it on when you can.
charlie b
I always imagined that box joints were easier to make than dovetails and I
avoided them for that reason. How wrong I was!
I went thru the exercise of making two box joint jigs (got the first one
wrong) and then actually made some drawers using box joints. The drawers
were square and seemed fairly strong but looked like they'd been made by an
amateur with toy tools.
Then yesterday I laid out and cut some dovetails ESSENTIALLY FREEHAND (with
the aid of my miter gauge, a makeshift fence and the exact-i-cut disk) on my
tablesaw.
I made a second practice set of dovetails today -- again largely freehand --
they came out infinitely better than my first attempt...and look better than
my box joints!
I can now say that dovetails are easier, faster and fit better than box
joints. From a structural perspective, it seems like they'd be much
stronger, too.
"Chuck Hoffman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just added dovetails to my repertoire. Took some 3" wide stock, laid out
> two large half tails on one piece and a large pin on the other. Using
the
> miter gauge, a makeshift fence and the exact-i-cut disk on my table saw, I
> removed most of the material and cleaned up the rest with a chisel and
back
> saw. I wasn't too careful so it's kinda chipped and ragged on the edges
but
> fits together snugly.
>
> Now I much better understand the article in Pop Woodworking's table saw
> magazine on a dovetail jig.
>
> I'll have to practice a lot more, though, before I attempt to make drawers
> with dovetails.
>
>
Lowell Holmes wrote:
>>snip
>>
>>Preferable joints, at least in my mind: doweled (only ever had to fix one
>>of them and that was because the wood broke, not the joint); dado with
>>angled brads & glue; glued & screwed; biscuits. In other words, pretty
>>much anything but dovetails.
>>
>>Only advantage I'll cede them is aesthetic. Analogous to Harley-Davidson
>>vs. Ducati/Suzuki/Bimota/Triumph/etc.
>
>
>
> What I like about woodworking is that if you don't like dovetails (or just
> can't do them), make your drawers with screws and glue, or what ever. If you
> like dovetails, then use dovetails. None of the posts in this thread is
> going to change anyone's mind. :-)
Agreed.
>
> Just curious, do you like mortise and tenon joints?
>
>
>
Yes. Although careful consideration needs to be given to grain
characteristics if it is a thru tenon. Some look better than others.
Conan the Librarian wrote:
> Kevin wrote:
>
>> I have never understood the infatuation with dovetails. Yeah they may
>> look nice but having grown up in a family that favors antiques, I can
>> attest to their structural inferiority. Not one dresser, desk, etc.
>> has a majority of solid dovetails; shrinkage, movement & broken off
>> tails on most have required repair. The other joints are all standing
>> the test of time quite well thank you.
>
>
> I am really curious about this, as you are the first person I've ever
> seen make this claim. My experience has been quite different. On all
> the older furniture I have seen, the dovetails appear to have held up
> just fine. In fact, many times they have held up when it's obvious that
> there is no glue bond to help. And if one tail fails, that doesn't make
> the whole drawer useless.
>
> As far as wood shrinkage and movement go, I would guess that's a
> matter of either what sort of wood was used in the first place (and was
> it green or not), or how the piece has been treated since.
>
> Frankly, I would think that the prevalence of these joints in older
> furniture would say quite a bit about their structural *superiority*. Do
> you honestly believe that cabinetmakers would continue using the same
> joint if they knew it was inferior?
>
> So what joints have you seen in antique furniture that outperform
> dovetails? (Assuming we are talking about drawers here; I know mortise
> and tenon joints for frames are as solid as it gets.)
>
> And what joint would you substitute for a dovetail when contructing
> drawers?
>
>> You want a jewelry box or other knick knack to look nice then go
>> ahead. You want that dresser/desk/etc to last long enough to actually
>> be an heirloom I'd avoid them like the plague.
>>
>> Having said that it may be that dovetails cut with modern jigs may
>> live up to the hype.
>
>
> I don't see how a jig is going to make any difference in structural
> integrity. If you want dovetails that are like those cut with a jig,
> you just lay them out with equal spacing. No big deal.
>
>
> Chuck Vance
Dunno, maybe we just got a bunch of Monday morning jobs. And of the
dovetails that are not loose, many appear to have been re-glued
(dis-similar glue to other joints in same piece), or massively glued in
the first place, which shouldn't be needed if the dovetail is so good,
right?
Preferable joints, at least in my mind: doweled (only ever had to fix
one of them and that was because the wood broke, not the joint); dado
with angled brads & glue; glued & screwed; biscuits. In other words,
pretty much anything but dovetails.
Only advantage I'll cede them is aesthetic. Analogous to
Harley-Davidson vs. Ducati/Suzuki/Bimota/Triumph/etc.
>snip
>
> Preferable joints, at least in my mind: doweled (only ever had to fix one
> of them and that was because the wood broke, not the joint); dado with
> angled brads & glue; glued & screwed; biscuits. In other words, pretty
> much anything but dovetails.
>
> Only advantage I'll cede them is aesthetic. Analogous to Harley-Davidson
> vs. Ducati/Suzuki/Bimota/Triumph/etc.
What I like about woodworking is that if you don't like dovetails (or just
can't do them), make your drawers with screws and glue, or what ever. If you
like dovetails, then use dovetails. None of the posts in this thread is
going to change anyone's mind. :-)
Just curious, do you like mortise and tenon joints?
> Please tell me more about the fretwork with chisels and gouges. I've
> been thinking about doing some carving projects that would be enhanced by
> judicious bits of fretwork.
>
>
> Chuck Vance
The chisel and gouge technique consists of laying out a geometric pattern on
the wood that has been prepared (for square and thickness). The pattern is
laid out using dividers to locate points and to scribe the pattern on the
wood. The piercing is done using chisels and gouges. The gouges are matched
to the arcs in the pattern. The edges are smoothed with small files after
the piercing is done.
"Chuck Hoffman" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I'm definitely still in the practice mode. But I've sufficiently
> refined my first crude attempts so that I can start making dovetails
> on household projects and I intend to do that on the revised design of
> my under-hearth drawer unit.
>
> That said, I must point out that when first-graders begin to learn
> penmanship, they start by making very large letters that span two or
> more lines on a tablet. Over time their technique improves so that by
> the third grade they are writing within a single line.
>
> My first attempt was on 6" wide stock. I laid out two half tails,
> each 2" wide, and a pin that was 2" wide. The taper I chose was 15
> degrees. I cut the half tails first, nibbling away most of the
> material on the table saw and finishing with a handsaw, chisel and
> 4-in-1 rasp. I used the tails as the template to lay out the pin.
>
> Eventually I'll start making smaller tails and pins. When I do, I'll
> have to change my approach, likely taking a closer look at Pop
> Woodworking's dovetail jig for the tablesaw. But I will likely never
> hand-cut dovetails. My hand tool technique sucks.
It may seem counterintuitive, but you may want to practice on smaller,
narrower, thinner stock. Errors don't show up as quickly. Layout and
cutting angles aren't as critical over small distances. Pieces are
lighter weight, clamp easily and tend to slide less. Wood doesn't move
as far. Grain tends to be more consistent over smaller distances.
And when you're done, you may have a small box to put stuff in.
Use light colored wood, so you can see your layout lines. Don't start
with maple. DAMHIKT.
And try it with hand tools, at least once. Then jig away!
Patriarch
I'm definitely still in the practice mode. But I've sufficiently refined my
first crude attempts so that I can start making dovetails on household
projects and I intend to do that on the revised design of my under-hearth
drawer unit.
That said, I must point out that when first-graders begin to learn
penmanship, they start by making very large letters that span two or more
lines on a tablet. Over time their technique improves so that by the third
grade they are writing within a single line.
My first attempt was on 6" wide stock. I laid out two half tails, each 2"
wide, and a pin that was 2" wide. The taper I chose was 15 degrees. I cut
the half tails first, nibbling away most of the material on the table saw
and finishing with a handsaw, chisel and 4-in-1 rasp. I used the tails as
the template to lay out the pin.
Eventually I'll start making smaller tails and pins. When I do, I'll have
to change my approach, likely taking a closer look at Pop Woodworking's
dovetail jig for the tablesaw. But I will likely never hand-cut dovetails.
My hand tool technique sucks.
"charlie b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> loutent wrote:
> >
> > Hi Chuck,
> >
> > Congrats! Although I have done machined dovetails
> > using a jig/router, I have never done hand cut ones.
> >
> > I think if I practiced for a few hours, it might give
> > me some confidence.
> >
> > If you have never seen the Frank Klausz video on
> > "dovetailing a drawer", it is worth the investment
> > (Fine Woodworking Website). It is amazing to see
> > him construct several handcut dovetailed drawers that he
> > fits into a custom desk from scratch in a little
> > over a half hour. Amazes me every time I watch it.
> >
> > Lou
>
> Amen to the Frank Klausz video recomendation.
> He covers a lot of ground on that tape and
> after watching it you want to head to the shop
> and try what you just saw.
>
> DON'T!
>
> What you think you learned and what you
> actually remember when you get to doing it
> will be miles apart. As I said, he covers a
> lot of ground, there are lots of details and
> the order of operation is critical to success,
> or at least passable dovetails. There are
> a boatload of ways of screwing up a dove-
> tailed drawer. Your first experience at hand-
> cutting dovetails can be an exercise in
> frustration if you missed or misunderstood
> any of what's shown on the tape. Failure
> can be discouraging and could turn you off
> to doing a very useful joint.
>
> I did a bunch of notes to myself after watching
> the tape. Followed the notes, watched the
> tape again, revised the notes, followed the
> notes, watched the tape, revised the notes ...
>
> The current revised "notes" may save you
> some frustration. Download, print and, with
> pencil in hand, watch the tape and make
> your own revisions to the notes. THEN
> go try handcut dovetails.
>
> If you find holes in the "notes" PLEASE
> let me know and I'll try and fill in the
> gap(s) on the pages.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/DovetailDrawer0.html
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> charlie b
Kevin wrote:
> I have never understood the infatuation with dovetails. Yeah they may
> look nice but having grown up in a family that favors antiques, I can
> attest to their structural inferiority. Not one dresser, desk, etc. has
> a majority of solid dovetails; shrinkage, movement & broken off tails on
> most have required repair. The other joints are all standing the test
> of time quite well thank you.
I am really curious about this, as you are the first person I've
ever seen make this claim. My experience has been quite different. On
all the older furniture I have seen, the dovetails appear to have held
up just fine. In fact, many times they have held up when it's obvious
that there is no glue bond to help. And if one tail fails, that doesn't
make the whole drawer useless.
As far as wood shrinkage and movement go, I would guess that's a
matter of either what sort of wood was used in the first place (and was
it green or not), or how the piece has been treated since.
Frankly, I would think that the prevalence of these joints in older
furniture would say quite a bit about their structural *superiority*.
Do you honestly believe that cabinetmakers would continue using the same
joint if they knew it was inferior?
So what joints have you seen in antique furniture that outperform
dovetails? (Assuming we are talking about drawers here; I know mortise
and tenon joints for frames are as solid as it gets.)
And what joint would you substitute for a dovetail when contructing
drawers?
> You want a jewelry box or other knick knack to look nice then go ahead.
> You want that dresser/desk/etc to last long enough to actually be an
> heirloom I'd avoid them like the plague.
>
> Having said that it may be that dovetails cut with modern jigs may live
> up to the hype.
I don't see how a jig is going to make any difference in structural
integrity. If you want dovetails that are like those cut with a jig,
you just lay them out with equal spacing. No big deal.
Chuck Vance
Lowell Holmes wrote:
> I often use dovetails because I can. :-)
And the corollary to that:
Why do you cut them with such narrow pins?
Because I can. :-)
> For duffers like myself, Rob Cosman's video's (Rough to Ready and Hand Cut
> Dovetails) are quite valuable.
I've heard nothing but good things about Rob and his demos. I
exoect I'd enjoy the video as well.
> In case your interested, I attended the conference in Williamsburg
> concerning making 18th century furniture. We met the Headley brothers (Mack
> and Jeff).
Damn, Lowell ... you go to all the good woodworking places. I'm
envious. :-)
> Chuck, you probably would have enjoyed the conference. They demonstrated a
> lot of skills you already possess, but they were inspirational. One thing
> they demonstrated that blew me away was making fret work with chisels and
> gouges. They also used a coping saw on other pieces. They showed both
> techniques.
Please tell me more about the fretwork with chisels and gouges.
I've been thinking about doing some carving projects that would be
enhanced by judicious bits of fretwork.
> OBTW, their drawers were all dovetailed. The antique's they displayed (up
> close and personal - not in the museum) were 18th and 19th century pieces.
> They all used dovetails and I never saw any failures.
But do just they do them because they can? ;-)
Chuck Vance
Silvan wrote:
> I'm in your camp. Dovetails seem, to me, to be nearly indestructible. I've
> got a lot of second hand stuff that isn't quite old enough to be "antique,"
> but is nevertheless well worn.
>
> It has been my experience that DTs will last forever if you take care to
> re-glue them if they work loose. The joints I've seen fail to the extent
> described by the OP were in a situation where the glue had worked loose,
> and the parts were used a great deal with nothing but the mechanical
> engagement of the pins and tails to keep the drawer together. After many
> years of that abuse, they eventually failed.
That's what I'm guessing the OP was seeing as well. Well-fitted,
glued dovetails effectively resist all the normal stresses that a drawer
will be subjected to.
> Even in that raggedy, ill-treated state, a very lame glue and clamp job of
> the mangled joint was sufficient to keep it working for another who knows
> how many years. I'd guess maybe that drawer has been going another 10
> years since I just slapped some glue on what was left of it and clamped it
> for a few hours. I didn't even bother to clean off the old glue. It was
> intended to be a temporary fix, but it has lasted for a long time.
Sounds like my experiences as well.
FWIW, I made a jewelry box for SWMBO out of cocobolo, and once I fit
the joints I didn't even bother trying to take it apart to glue it.
It's held up perfectly well ever since. And then there's the first time
I cut dt's in maple. I was making a carcase for some tool storage, and
when I test fit the thing, the joints were so tight that I wound up
leaving them without glue as well.
Obviously, these aren't subjected to the same sorts of stresses as
drawers, but I think they say a lot about the structural integrity of
the dovetail joint.
Chuck Vance
Kevin wrote:
> Dunno, maybe we just got a bunch of Monday morning jobs. And of the
> dovetails that are not loose, many appear to have been re-glued
> (dis-similar glue to other joints in same piece), or massively glued in
> the first place, which shouldn't be needed if the dovetail is so good,
> right?
Absolutely. In fact, if you read my previous post, you might have
seen that I mentioned a couple of instances where I didn't even put
*any* glue in dovetails and had them hold up just fine, thanks.
> Preferable joints, at least in my mind: doweled (only ever had to fix
> one of them and that was because the wood broke, not the joint); dado
> with angled brads & glue; glued & screwed; biscuits. In other words,
> pretty much anything but dovetails.
>
> Only advantage I'll cede them is aesthetic. Analogous to
> Harley-Davidson vs. Ducati/Suzuki/Bimota/Triumph/etc.
OK, it's obvious that no one is going to change your mind, and
that's fine. But that doesn't change the fact that there are centuries
of woodworkers/craftsmen that have used dovetails for a reason. And
those people made their living making things. I seriously doubt that
they were doing them "just for show".
Chuck Vance
charlie b Wrote:
> loutent wrote:[color=blue][i]
>
> The current revised "notes" may save you
> some frustration. Download, print and, with
> pencil in hand, watch the tape and make
> your own revisions to the notes. THEN
> go try handcut dovetails.
>
> If you find holes in the "notes" PLEASE
> let me know and I'll try and fill in the
> gap(s) on the pages.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/DovetailDrawer0.html
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> charlie b
Charlie,
Thanks a lot for writing this document and make it available. I don't
own any video playback equipment (not because I am too old, but just a
matter or principle!) so it is not much use buying Frank Klausz'
video.
During searches over the Internet and reading some books (The Workbench
Book by Scott Landis) I learned a few things about Frank Klausz, and I
have applied the information I could get.
Frankly, I was surprised by that even *I* was able to cut decent
dovetails. The more I make, the better they get. But what is more
important, I get faster in making them. Somehow I always seemed to
overcut the tails, and it took quite some paring to make them fit. As
my skills continued to develop, sawing became more accurate, and now it
often happens that I fit the part together right after chopping out the
tails. Without any pairing.
Very relevant was the replacment of the handle of my dovetail saw with
a homemade one after I read this article:
'the way of the saw'
(http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/woodworking/revelations_1.html)
Sawing has become twice as accurate after I copied this saw handle.
But I also considerably improved my skills using the tips from your
document. I once read it, lost it, found it back and now I was smart
enough to save it.
Thanks again.
jlinkels
--
jlinkels
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:12:34 -0600, Conan the Librarian
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> FWIW, I made a jewelry box for SWMBO out of cocobolo, and once I fit
>the joints I didn't even bother trying to take it apart to glue it.
>It's held up perfectly well ever since. And then there's the first time
>I cut dt's in maple. I was making a carcase for some tool storage, and
>when I test fit the thing, the joints were so tight that I wound up
>leaving them without glue as well.
if you do want to glue them at that point, a drop of CA on the surface
will pull in via capillary action.
"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kevin wrote:
>
>> I have never understood the infatuation with dovetails. Yeah they may
>> look nice but having grown up in a family that favors antiques, I can
>> attest to their structural inferiority. Not one dresser, desk, etc. has
>> a majority of solid dovetails; shrinkage, movement & broken off tails on
>> most have required repair. The other joints are all standing the test of
>> time quite well thank you.
>
> I am really curious about this, as you are the first person I've ever
> seen make this claim. My experience has been quite different. On all the
> older furniture I have seen, the dovetails appear to have held up just
> fine. In fact, many times they have held up when it's obvious that there
> is no glue bond to help. And if one tail fails, that doesn't make the
> whole drawer useless.
>
> As far as wood shrinkage and movement go, I would guess that's a matter
> of either what sort of wood was used in the first place (and was it green
> or not), or how the piece has been treated since.
>
> Frankly, I would think that the prevalence of these joints in older
> furniture would say quite a bit about their structural *superiority*. Do
> you honestly believe that cabinetmakers would continue using the same
> joint if they knew it was inferior?
>
> So what joints have you seen in antique furniture that outperform
> dovetails? (Assuming we are talking about drawers here; I know mortise
> and tenon joints for frames are as solid as it gets.)
>
> And what joint would you substitute for a dovetail when contructing
> drawers?
>
>> You want a jewelry box or other knick knack to look nice then go ahead.
>> You want that dresser/desk/etc to last long enough to actually be an
>> heirloom I'd avoid them like the plague.
>>
>> Having said that it may be that dovetails cut with modern jigs may live
>> up to the hype.
>
> I don't see how a jig is going to make any difference in structural
> integrity. If you want dovetails that are like those cut with a jig, you
> just lay them out with equal spacing. No big deal.
>
>
> Chuck Vance
I often use dovetails because I can. :-)
For duffers like myself, Rob Cosman's video's (Rough to Ready and Hand Cut
Dovetails) are quite valuable.
In case your interested, I attended the conference in Williamsburg
concerning making 18th century furniture. We met the Headley brothers (Mack
and Jeff).
Chuck, you probably would have enjoyed the conference. They demonstrated a
lot of skills you already possess, but they were inspirational. One thing
they demonstrated that blew me away was making fret work with chisels and
gouges. They also used a coping saw on other pieces. They showed both
techniques.
OBTW, their drawers were all dovetailed. The antique's they displayed (up
close and personal - not in the museum) were 18th and 19th century pieces.
They all used dovetails and I never saw any failures.
Chuck Hoffman wrote:
> I always imagined that box joints were easier to make than dovetails and I
> avoided them for that reason. How wrong I was!
>
What kind of box joints are you making?
>
> I can now say that dovetails are <snip> fit better than box
> joints. From a structural perspective, it seems like they'd be much
> stronger, too.
>
>
>
>
I have never understood the infatuation with dovetails. Yeah they may
look nice but having grown up in a family that favors antiques, I can
attest to their structural inferiority. Not one dresser, desk, etc. has
a majority of solid dovetails; shrinkage, movement & broken off tails on
most have required repair. The other joints are all standing the test
of time quite well thank you.
You want a jewelry box or other knick knack to look nice then go ahead.
You want that dresser/desk/etc to last long enough to actually be an
heirloom I'd avoid them like the plague.
Having said that it may be that dovetails cut with modern jigs may live
up to the hype.