Does anyone know the relative pound-cut of the standard shellac? I've
found that the sealer is a 2lb. cut on their website. When spraying
the standard shellac I've had to thin it some, so I was thinking of
just buying the sealer and using that. But then I thought again and
figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon
of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. Any
thoughts? Concerns? I'm just looking for a little affirmation here
folks!
JP
Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:17:40 -0600, Swingman wrote:
>
>
>>You really don't need the dewaxed, if that is all you're using ... the
>>dewaxed being essential for compatibility with lacquer, poly and other
>>top coat finishes added post shellac application.
>
>
> The dewaxed also resists moisture and water rings much better.
>
After running some tests I my own a few years ago I strongly agree.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:13:52 -0600, the infamous Swingman
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Jay Pique wrote:
>> Does anyone know the relative pound-cut of the standard shellac? I've
>> found that the sealer is a 2lb. cut on their website. When spraying
>> the standard shellac I've had to thin it some, so I was thinking of
>> just buying the sealer and using that. But then I thought again and
>> figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon
>> of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. Any
>> thoughts? Concerns? I'm just looking for a little affirmation here
>> folks!
>
>3 pound cut is what you get out of the can for the standard, althouugh
>I've seen 4 and 5 pound cut at paint stores, and the sanding sealer, out
>of the can should be a 2 pound cut.
>
>The sealer is dewaxed and works well when sprayed and can indeed be used
>as the finish coat. I often used the amber 3 pound cut, thinned to a 1
>1/2 pound cut with isopropyl alcohol (depending upon the temp/humidity)
>prayed on for the final coat.
That very last line is awfully Freudian, Swingy.
--
We have too many high sounding words, and too few actions that correspond
with them. -- Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, 1774
On Nov 24, 3:36=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> =A0Their stuff makes Klean Strip and its cousins look like water.
> I brushed my arm against some of their stripper that was on a door
> frame and it raised white blisters in about 10 minutes. Good stuff!
Hehehehe..you're mad man! Love it!
On Nov 24, 4:52=A0pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
> Cool, thanks... but which stuff are you talking about exactly? =A0They ha=
ve five pages of
> goodies in "finishes and sealers" section.
At the bottom of the first page, it is listed as "Exterior Fast Dry
Polyurethane GA" (Spray forumla). I have used gloss and satin.
Don't know if this will work due to the wrap:
http://kwickkleen.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3D108&products_id=3D14=
00
or
http://tinyurl.com/y9635lf
I have also used the second one down on page two, the " Kwick Kote
High Solids- GA " for a high build finish. This stuff is sex. Check
it out.... 30% solids!
You MUST buff/cut it down though as it will be too thick otherwise.
I have probably shot a fifty+ gallons or so of that first selection
and love it. I always spray it, and it is everything they say it is
and more. I recoat in 30 minutes, and on exterior doors I can build 5
coats in a day with no problems.
It thins well, and a the wildman that I know in Phoenix (that actually
introduced me to this stuff a few years ago) cuts it by 50 - 75% with
no finish failures. I personally have never cut by more than 50%.
But it shows you how forgiving the product can be.
I have shot this with a CAS HVLP as well as my Fuji HVLP. No problems
with either. Just make sure you thin with good, paint store lacquer
like Sherwin Williams of BM, or others. NO Home Depot crap. They are
good for gun wash, and not much else.
Note they sell this as a quick dry polyurethane. But when you read
the info, you can see that they claim that the subsequent coats will
melt into the first. They do! No witness lines on those next coats.
And unlike actual polyurethane, this stuff is repairable. In
practice, I cannot tell this stuff from lacquer when I spray it. But
the cured finish is quite hard, very abrasion resistant, and if the
exterior blend it has great UV resistance as well.
While I have not tried it, they are supposed to make a really kick ass
plain lacquer as well.
I hope you try it and let us know what you think.
Robert
On Nov 25, 9:53=A0am, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ah, well I did think of one more thing. =A0I wonder if you have any idea =
how well this product
> holds up to the long term effects of being in contact with the oils and s=
weat of human skin,
> for example, on a computer desktop or the arms of a chair? =A0
I have used this stuff for anything my clients would let me put it
on. I have refinished table tops, exterior doors, counters in a
bathroom, you name it.
In each application, NO problems. It is abrasion resistant, UV
resistant and protects the wood quite well. Applied correctly and to
the right thickness (finished thickness not less than 3 mil) it should
work great.
I put it on the front door of the Fair Oaks Country Club as well as
the entry access doors to the members areas and dressing rooms about
five years ago.
In five years of use, the doors look great. I hit them pretty hard on
the price of refinishing the doors as I had to strip off a few layers
of varnish, poly, and who knows what to get to bare wood. The finish
is holding up so well though that they are wanting me to do more when
the budget permits.
Take away all the oily, sticky hands from folks that range from sweaty
guys coming in from playing tennis and golf. Take away the fact that
on one set of these doors the folks (non latching double doors) prefer
to bang into the doors with their butts instead of pushint them open
using the brass push plate. (They don't spill their cocktails.)
That's not the worst of it. The maintenance people have done
everything wrong you can do to clean the grime off these doors. I
went out there about two years after I had finished their doors as I
was angling to refinish their large conference table. I found that
the cleaning maintenance guys were cleaning the doors with 409 every
day, allowing window cleaner to drip onto the door as they cleaned the
windows, and worse, when finished they applied a hefty coat of lemon
oil.
I was stunned. I had given them a list of things to do to clean them
as well as accepted cleaners. My number was on the list to call if
none of the stuff I recommended worked. After consulting Dave at
Kwickkleen, I issued a letter reascending my warranty.
What's so bad about lemon oil? There are many different versions, but
all of them should be used as mosquito repellent, and that's it. Some
have lemon oil in them, some do not. Real lemon oil has a high level
of acidity, but it probably wouldn't hurt a poly finish if it was only
used once in a while. But the bad part of it is that "lemon oil" is
actually mineral oil that is scented or has a little of lemon oil in
it, or both.
Mineral oil is a petroleum product. Petroleum products destroy any
wood finish I know of. I have even seen leaking oil from a small
appliance eat through "bar top" finish.
However, the good news is that neither cleaner or oils did any harm to
the Kwickleen stuff even after being applied daily. The WD40 they
sprayed on the hinges and locks didn't seem to phase it either. That
really sold me!
The last time I saw the breakfast table top I put it on (finished it
in the client's garage with my Fuji HVLP) it looked great. The folks
eat there all the time, never at the dining room table, so it gets all
the wear and tear of eating plus cleaning after. For that top, the
finish mil was about 5, which was achieved with about 10 coats over
two days of time.
<<Generally>> speaking, I thin that stuff about 10 - 30% depending on
temp and humidity. When I was refinishing entryway doors, I was able
to strip, wash and apply 5 coats of finish in a day and rehang the
door.
A word of caution on this stuff. I tried brushing this stuff, and I
might as well have glued the brush to the wood. It goes off FAST. I
am fine brushing finishes that have long layout times like latex,
poly, or oil based stuff. But you can count the seconds you have to
get it right when you brush or pad this stuff. Their regular (non
spray formula - which I have sprayed!) may be different.
I am ONLY speaking of the spray formula. This isn't a problem for me
as almost all high performance finishes are made to be sprayed, some
spray only, these days.
>I've stopped using regular
> nitrocellulose lacquer for things like this because it doesn't hold up we=
ll at all; it
> breaks down and gets gummy, and you can scrape right it off with your fin=
gernail. =A0
Yeah, me too. There are too many other finishes out there that leave
it in the dust. I have no romance of connecting to the old ways of
finishing, ESPECIALLY if it comes as a compromise in performance. Not
one bit. One warranty call on my finish, and if it is the fault of
the finish I won't use it again.
I still shoot some Old Masters lacquer in occasion. Some folks don't
want to pay a few buck more for the good stuff, and that is certainly
their prerogative. The OM product isn't hard to find (I buy mine at
Benjamin Moore) and is easy to shoot and easy to build. It finishes
nicely and give good performance. No warranty from me though, except
against peeling.
Robert
On Nov 22, 9:13=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jay Pique wrote:
> > Does anyone know the relative pound-cut of the standard shellac? =A0I'v=
e
> > found that the sealer is a 2lb. cut on their website. =A0When spraying
> > the standard shellac I've had to thin it some, so I was thinking of
> > just buying the sealer and using that. =A0But then I thought again and
> > figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon
> > of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. =A0Any
> > thoughts? =A0Concerns? =A0I'm just looking for a little affirmation her=
e
> > folks!
>
> 3 pound cut is what you get out of the can for the standard, althouugh
> I've seen 4 and 5 pound cut at paint stores, and the sanding sealer, out
> of the can should be a 2 pound cut.
>
> The sealer is dewaxed and works well when sprayed and can indeed be used
> as the finish coat. I often used the amber 3 pound cut, thinned to a 1
> 1/2 pound cut with isopropyl alcohol (depending upon the temp/humidity)
> prayed on for the final coat.
Thanks much.
> There are quit a few threads on this in years past if you google.
DAGS!!! I got lazy....sorry. I'm just finishing up a countertop that
absolutely positively needs to be done before Thanksgiving so that's
my excuse and I'm sticking with it!
JP
On Nov 25, 12:13=A0pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
> The UV protection is interesting to me. =A0It will be four years ago in F=
ebruary that we
> bought a house in Austin that faces the east Texas sun (better than west,=
but not by much),
> and after two and half years the stained and varnished front door started=
looking like hell.
> =A0 The varnish is entirely GONE from some of the houses across the stree=
t that face west. =A0
*sigh*....
Before things got so tight I had a nice little deal going with a door
company and another with a hardware company. The people you have that
have wrecked doors fed me well for a while.
Refinish, new hardware, add a peephole, new weatherstrip, and rehang/
shim as needed and they were as good as new for about 75% of
replacement cost with none of the big mess.
I liked doing that, and in fact giving props to the start of the door
refinishing business for me, I picked up on that after lengthy talks
with this guy about Kwickkleen:
http://www.billsdoorrefinishing.com/bills_frameset.html
I am not sure he is still in business. He had a head full of fumes
off and on when I was talking to him, but he knew the Kwickkleen
product inside and out. He refinished one door a day, from stripping
to re-hanging. Full entryways and sidelights were longer (and
extra!).
I never could convince him there was money in rehanging doors. I
never could convince him that there was money in specialty hardware
installs, especially the higher security or more sophisticated stuff
like box locks.
Worse, I could never convince him to spray dyes on doors or wood. It
scared him to death. His finished product (including color) was
whatever it looked like with Kwickkleen on it.
Loved to work a solid three days a week, drink his beer, and take a
weekday for "paperwork and phone calls". Worked at his own speed
when he felt like it. Great guy, too. Never talked to him when there
was an bit of tension in his voice.
>=A0Sounds like the Kwick Kleen stuff would be a good product to try when t=
he
> time comes. =A0Might also want to try it on the black walnut swing hangin=
g from the pergola in
> my back yard, made for me by a friend in Missouri and also finished with =
spar varnish. =A0It
> ain't holding up...
My confidence is high in this product. I wouldn't use a product on a
high vis project like a country club or some of the upscale houses I
have worked on if I thought I had one ounce of liability I didn't need
to assume.
I don't like spar varnish; never have. It seems to me to do a lot of
things OK, but none well.
There are too many other products out there that perform better.
Remember that when you color your door (unless you use Transtint) you
will get some UV protection. I don't oil stain unless I have to, but
really prefer to dye. The only dye I have used with great success is
the Behlen's Solalux products. Thin with anhydrous alcohol and spray
them right out of your gun as a mist coat.
As one of Dr. Robert Phibes experiments, I used what is called "the
roof test". Again, not my idea, but it is a keeper. I put Behlens on
a piece of 2X2 poplar about 36 inches long and let it dry. I sprayed
three coats of finish on the wood and let it cure for a couple of
weeks. I put wax paper covered with painters tape over half of the
2X2 and left the other half uncovered.
I tossed it up on the roof in the spring, and left it up there for
about 14 months. (It was supposed to be 12 months but I forgot about
it!) I uncovered the taped side and was really surprised. Even in
the overbearing south Texas heat on the roof (surface temp about 150F)
in the direct UV of the sun, the difference in the two sides was
negligible. I was already using Kwickkleen, but not Behlen's. But
with the satin KK over the Behlen's, it worked very, very well.
Almost no color loss at all from 12 hours a day of exposure, and the
KK was still in perfect condition.
When I was going on this project full steam, I could strip, wash,
sand, wash, dye, and put five coats of finish on in ten hours.
Granted, you are a busy guy, but you still spend more time on surface
prep than any other aspect. Thinned dye will be ready to coat with
finish in 15 minutes (!!!!) or about as soon as you have your gun
cleaned, and a batch of finish mixed.
Then every 20 - 30 minutes after that first coat you can go back with
another coat. I would start at 8:00am, and have the door back up with
hardware on by 6:30 or 7:00pm. Granted, if it was really humid or a
little cool, I would leave off the weather strips, and secure the door
with only the deadbolt for the night. I went by the next day to check
for blushing, etc., and installed the weatherstrip and collected.
> > I am ONLY speaking of the spray formula. =A0This isn't a problem for me
> > as almost all high performance finishes are made to be sprayed, some
> > spray only, these days.
>
> I wouldn't dream of brushing something like this. =A0I've been spraying s=
tuff for 30 years, so
> I'm already sold on the benefits. =A0:-)
Now if we could only get brother Leon to see the benefits.... ;^)
> Thanks for all the great advice Robert, as usual.
My pleasure, glad to be of help.
> Scrolling ahead to page four, I see that it also comes in quarts. =A0That=
's good, because I
> was trying to decide which of the three grades (gloss, semi-gloss, or sat=
in) to purchase; so
> now I might just get one of each. =A0A gallon would last me a LONG time, =
unless maybe I'd
> could try to make some extra bucks by refinishing all the neighbors' door=
s! =A0Any words about
> which of those three grades you prefer using?
I have used all three. Unlike a lot of products where I can't tell
any difference between semi gloss and satin, I could with these
products. I like the semi gloss for inside, and the satin for
exterior surfaces. The gloss looks like any other lacquer.
One thing I will warn you about: Dave is the owner and head banana at
Kwickkleen. He mixes his own product at his shop in Indiana. Almost
all of his products are sold to professionals, so he figures he can
leave off some of the instruction and training.
I bought some semi gloss from him and didn't stir it well. The
unknown flatteners (Dave gives up NOTHING) were at the bottom and they
were stuck to the bottom of the can. I stirred with a stick for a few
minutes and went on my way spraying. It was for some store fixtures
and neither the owner or myself were happy with the end shiny finish.
After five minutes on the phone with me, Dave informed me in a stern
voice that I was the problem, not his product. He took it for granted
that I would stir ANY coating with premium metal stirrer mounted on a
power drill for a minimum of five minutes. The flattener was on the
bottom of the can and my not too vigorous stirring of the product
didn't get the solids in solution. I was more worried about getting
bubbles in the finish than anything, so no power stirrer. Dave told
me to use the stirrer, and just use low speeds. Wise guy....
So I mixed in some gloss I had left from another project, stirred it
all up as required and was back in business.
The point being that unlike so many finishes geared for the DIY and
the semi pro guys, this isn't it. You have to follow all the good
habits of finishing you have developed over the years.
Remember that you will be paying shipping, and a hazardous material
fee when you order. I don't recall how the break point comes, but
there is some point where they hit the shipping minimum and it doesn't
matter how much you buy, it doesn't add to the cost. They don't tag
you for a "per container" or handling cost.
Also, for a maiden voyage, you might consider that unless things have
changed, you don't pay the hazardous material fee on ONE quart. So it
would just be shipping. It would give you a chance to test the water
on the cheap.
> What about the product's ability to stay usable in the can? =A0I'd guess =
that since it has the
> property of melting into prior coats when applied that it wouldn't need s=
omething like
> "Bloxygen" to keep it from wanting to "cure" in the can, correct?
I have had some that remained usable in the can for about a year. It
seemed fine, and since I clean my can rims really well, it was in a
tight seal. I really don't know how much longer it would last. I
poured a little bit of lacquer thinner over the top of the remaining
finish and tapped on the lid with a rubber hammer and put it out in
the shop. Dave however tells me that <unopened>, the shelf life is
indefinite!
If you jump in Steve, I would really be interested in what you think
of this stuff. If you are used to spraying, this will be a real treat
for you.
If you have anything else, just ask. I will be gone till next
Wednesday as me and the SO are going away for Tday with a few more
days tacked on.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
Robert
Jay Pique wrote:
> Does anyone know the relative pound-cut of the standard shellac? I've
> found that the sealer is a 2lb. cut on their website. When spraying
> the standard shellac I've had to thin it some, so I was thinking of
> just buying the sealer and using that. But then I thought again and
> figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon
> of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. Any
> thoughts? Concerns? I'm just looking for a little affirmation here
> folks!
3 pound cut is what you get out of the can for the standard, althouugh
I've seen 4 and 5 pound cut at paint stores, and the sanding sealer, out
of the can should be a 2 pound cut.
The sealer is dewaxed and works well when sprayed and can indeed be used
as the finish coat. I often used the amber 3 pound cut, thinned to a 1
1/2 pound cut with isopropyl alcohol (depending upon the temp/humidity)
prayed on for the final coat.
There are quit a few threads on this in years past if you google.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Nov 22, 11:10=A0am, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com>
wrote:
>
> >=A0But then I thought again and
> >figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon
> >of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. =A0Any
> >thoughts? =A0Concerns? =A0I'm just looking for a little affirmation here
> >folks!
Just buy it and go. Shellac is a finish that doesn't desegregate, so
you cannot thin it to much. It might make you have to put more coats
or possibly affect your finish a bit, but it is almost impossible to
ruin shellac when thinning.
And since it resolvates, you don't have to worry about any attempts to
repair. You can repair or touch up to your hearts content.
> I'd want to find out the exact solvent they used before trying to
> dilute the canned crap to ward off any strange reactions. =A0YMMV
> (Yeah, I know. "Alcohol is alcohol", but...
Actually, alcohol isn't alcohol. When using alcohol to think shellac,
you should only use anhydrous alcohol. It mixes better, sprays
better, gives a better final product and keeps application problems to
a minimum.
Any premium brand anhydrous alcohol can be used successfully to thin
the Zinsser product lines of shellac. I have been using the Sherwin
Williams brand for years with no problems at all.
Spend the money; get the right stuff.
While YMMV, I usually cut the Zinsser sanding sealer by about 30- 50%
( !!! ) and spray it rapidly when redoing kitchens or baths, or on
new cabinets. This does two things; it sprays out like water so if
you are experienced you can lay that stuff out fast and accurately.
If you do get a run or sag, it is easy to sand off because it dries so
fast.
The second thing is that >because< it dries so fast, it cuts down the
opportunity of finish contamination by airborne "stuff" that is always
in the air on the job site. Less nibs, less cleanup or sanding =3D less
time finishing.
If my surfaces are new cabinets, I check to see if the SS raised the
grain or made the surface rough (from not enough sealer). If they are
smooth I will spray a lacquer or conversion lacquer over the sanding
sealer without sanding after about 4 hours.
Depending on your project, you could prime, touch sand, and apply two
or three finish coats all in a day using the right combination of prep
and finish.
Robert
Jay Pique wrote:
> On Nov 22, 9:13 am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Jay Pique wrote:
>>> Does anyone know the relative pound-cut of the standard shellac? I've
>>> found that the sealer is a 2lb. cut on their website. When spraying
>>> the standard shellac I've had to thin it some, so I was thinking of
>>> just buying the sealer and using that. But then I thought again and
>>> figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon
>>> of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. Any
>>> thoughts? Concerns? I'm just looking for a little affirmation here
>>> folks!
>> 3 pound cut is what you get out of the can for the standard, althouugh
>> I've seen 4 and 5 pound cut at paint stores, and the sanding sealer, out
>> of the can should be a 2 pound cut.
>>
>> The sealer is dewaxed and works well when sprayed and can indeed be used
>> as the finish coat. I often used the amber 3 pound cut, thinned to a 1
>> 1/2 pound cut with isopropyl alcohol (depending upon the temp/humidity)
>> prayed on for the final coat.
>
> Thanks much.
>
>> There are quit a few threads on this in years past if you google.
>
> DAGS!!! I got lazy....sorry. I'm just finishing up a countertop that
> absolutely positively needs to be done before Thanksgiving so that's
> my excuse and I'm sticking with it!
No problem ... it was just that there is much more in depth info
available in some of those threads than in this one. :)
If you are not planning on using anything but shellac, buy the three
pound cut and thin it down to 1 1/2 with alcohol (I prefer to use that
cut when spraying, but YMMV).
You really don't need the dewaxed, if that is all you're using ... the
dewaxed being essential for compatibility with lacquer, poly and other
top coat finishes added post shellac application.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Nov 22, 3:08=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
>
> If my surfaces are new cabinets, I check to see if the SS raised the
> grain or made the surface rough (from not enough sealer). =A0If they are
> smooth I will spray a lacquer or conversion lacquer over the sanding
> sealer without sanding after about 4 hours.
>
> Depending on your project, you could prime, touch sand, and apply two
> or three finish coats all in a day using the right combination of prep
> and finish.
>
The beauty with conversion lacquers is that successive coats, if done
in a reasonable timeframe, really become one coat. I mean that stuff
sticks to itself beautifully and is that is also my biggest beef about
WB stuff... although I have been getting some pretty nice results with
clear MinWax acrylic. That stuff dries pretty hard so I get a nice cut
from a fresh piece of sandpaper.
I am currently working (as we speak) on a rather interesting project
where I made bamboo door trim for a vanity on my cnc, out of cherry,
just so I can SS the stuff, them paint semi-gloss black, just so I can
knock it off the high-lights... then clear coat only the
bamboo....*damned interior decorators...LOL*
Oh.. and that little 35" vanity is getting a Passion Rouge quartz top
(pette) with a screaming white porcelain undermount bowl.
On Nov 22, 8:25=A0pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]>
> What brand of conversion lacquer are you guys using?
I really, really like the stuff from these guys:
http://www.kwickkleen.com/catalog
Scroll down to their "finishes and sealers" button on the left hand
side.
They will send you a free catalogue, and if you have a business phone
number showing you are in "the business", they will send you a free
quart.
It is without doubt the finest pre-cat poly conversion lacquer I have
ever used. And the final finish when hardened and cured will rival
most air cured post-cat lacquers.
Plus.... if you hit a wall, you can talk to Dave, the owner and
proprietor who tests and is in charge of mixing and designing all the
finishing products he sells.
When I had a lot of refinishing of entry doors to do at a local golf
course/country club, I decided to try their stripper, and bought a
five. Their stuff makes Klean Strip and its cousins look like water.
I brushed my arm against some of their stripper that was on a door
frame and it raised white blisters in about 10 minutes. Good stuff!
Note too, they sell a very good professional quality metal lacquer in
a spray can that is quite good for all metals, but really great for
brass door hardware, hinges, knockers, mail slots, etc.
Robert
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:43:33 -0800 (PST), the infamous Jay Pique
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Does anyone know the relative pound-cut of the standard shellac? I've
>found that the sealer is a 2lb. cut on their website. When spraying
>the standard shellac I've had to thin it some, so I was thinking of
>just buying the sealer and using that. But then I thought again and
>figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon
>of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. Any
>thoughts? Concerns? I'm just looking for a little affirmation here
>folks!
I'd want to find out the exact solvent they used before trying to
dilute the canned crap to ward off any strange reactions. YMMV
(Yeah, I know. "Alcohol is alcohol", but...
Why aren't you mixing your own from flake, Jay? It's cheaper, ou can
control the exact color by the flake, and you can make it quicker or
slower to dry via the solvent (DNA for quicker, ISO for slower.)
Besides, it's plumb funner!
http://www.shellacshack.com/purchase-shellac-flakes.html These ain't
Paddylac prices <sigh>, but they're better than the price from the old
Paddylac site. I sure wish O'Deen had kept that. They want more than
quadruple the price he got. www.shellac.net Used to be Paddy's.
--
We have too many high sounding words, and too few actions that correspond
with them. -- Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, 1774
Robatoy wrote:
> On Nov 22, 3:08 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> [snipped for brevity]
>> If my surfaces are new cabinets, I check to see if the SS raised the
>> grain or made the surface rough (from not enough sealer). If they are
>> smooth I will spray a lacquer or conversion lacquer over the sanding
>> sealer without sanding after about 4 hours.
>
> The beauty with conversion lacquers is that successive coats, if done
> in a reasonable timeframe, really become one coat. I mean that stuff
> sticks to itself beautifully
What brand of conversion lacquer are you guys using?
--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
[email protected] wrote:
> On Nov 22, 8:25 pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]>
>
>
>> What brand of conversion lacquer are you guys using?
>
> I really, really like the stuff from these guys:
>
> http://www.kwickkleen.com/catalog
>
> Scroll down to their "finishes and sealers" button on the left hand
> side.
>
> They will send you a free catalogue, and if you have a business phone
> number showing you are in "the business", they will send you a free
> quart.
>
> It is without doubt the finest pre-cat poly conversion lacquer I have
> ever used. And the final finish when hardened and cured will rival
> most air cured post-cat lacquers.
Cool, thanks... but which stuff are you talking about exactly? They have five pages of
goodies in "finishes and sealers" section.
--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
[email protected] wrote:
> On Nov 24, 4:52 pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Cool, thanks... but which stuff are you talking about exactly? They have five pages of
>> goodies in "finishes and sealers" section.
>
> At the bottom of the first page, it is listed as "Exterior Fast Dry
> Polyurethane GA" (Spray forumla). I have used gloss and satin.
> Don't know if this will work due to the wrap:
>
> http://kwickkleen.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=108&products_id=1400
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y9635lf
>
>
> I have also used the second one down on page two, the " Kwick Kote
> High Solids- GA " for a high build finish. This stuff is sex. Check
> it out.... 30% solids!
>
> You MUST buff/cut it down though as it will be too thick otherwise.
>
> I have probably shot a fifty+ gallons or so of that first selection
> and love it. I always spray it, and it is everything they say it is
> and more. I recoat in 30 minutes, and on exterior doors I can build 5
> coats in a day with no problems.
>
> It thins well, and a the wildman that I know in Phoenix (that actually
> introduced me to this stuff a few years ago) cuts it by 50 - 75% with
> no finish failures. I personally have never cut by more than 50%.
> But it shows you how forgiving the product can be.
>
> I have shot this with a CAS HVLP as well as my Fuji HVLP. No problems
> with either. Just make sure you thin with good, paint store lacquer
> like Sherwin Williams of BM, or others. NO Home Depot crap. They are
> good for gun wash, and not much else.
>
> Note they sell this as a quick dry polyurethane. But when you read
> the info, you can see that they claim that the subsequent coats will
> melt into the first. They do! No witness lines on those next coats.
> And unlike actual polyurethane, this stuff is repairable. In
> practice, I cannot tell this stuff from lacquer when I spray it. But
> the cured finish is quite hard, very abrasion resistant, and if the
> exterior blend it has great UV resistance as well.
>
> While I have not tried it, they are supposed to make a really kick ass
> plain lacquer as well.
>
> I hope you try it and let us know what you think.
>
> Robert
Sounds great Robert, and you answered all the other questions I'd been pondering but had yet
to ask. I will try it and let you know (not sure *when*, exactly...). Thanks.
--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Steve Turner wrote:
> Sounds great Robert, and you answered all the other questions I'd been
> pondering but had yet to ask. I will try it and let you know (not sure
> *when*, exactly...). Thanks.
Ah, well I did think of one more thing. I wonder if you have any idea how well this product
holds up to the long term effects of being in contact with the oils and sweat of human skin,
for example, on a computer desktop or the arms of a chair? I've stopped using regular
nitrocellulose lacquer for things like this because it doesn't hold up well at all; it
breaks down and gets gummy, and you can scrape right it off with your fingernail. Do you
happen to know if this product will stand up to that kind of abuse?
--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
[email protected] wrote:
> On Nov 25, 9:53 am, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Ah, well I did think of one more thing. I wonder if you have any idea how well this product
>> holds up to the long term effects of being in contact with the oils and sweat of human skin,
>> for example, on a computer desktop or the arms of a chair?
>
> I have used this stuff for anything my clients would let me put it
> on. I have refinished table tops, exterior doors, counters in a
> bathroom, you name it.
>
> In each application, NO problems. It is abrasion resistant, UV
> resistant and protects the wood quite well. Applied correctly and to
> the right thickness (finished thickness not less than 3 mil) it should
> work great.
>
> I put it on the front door of the Fair Oaks Country Club as well as
> the entry access doors to the members areas and dressing rooms about
> five years ago.
>
> In five years of use, the doors look great. I hit them pretty hard on
> the price of refinishing the doors as I had to strip off a few layers
> of varnish, poly, and who knows what to get to bare wood. The finish
> is holding up so well though that they are wanting me to do more when
> the budget permits.
The UV protection is interesting to me. It will be four years ago in February that we
bought a house in Austin that faces the east Texas sun (better than west, but not by much),
and after two and half years the stained and varnished front door started looking like hell.
The varnish is entirely GONE from some of the houses across the street that face west. I
just refinished my front door earlier this year by spot sanding, touching up the stain, and
applying a couple of coats of McCloskey's marine spar varnish, but I have to wonder how long
that will last. Sounds like the Kwick Kleen stuff would be a good product to try when the
time comes. Might also want to try it on the black walnut swing hanging from the pergola in
my back yard, made for me by a friend in Missouri and also finished with spar varnish. It
ain't holding up...
<snipped lots of good info about lemon oil and other "cleaning" products>
> However, the good news is that neither cleaner or oils did any harm to
> the Kwickleen stuff even after being applied daily. The WD40 they
> sprayed on the hinges and locks didn't seem to phase it either. That
> really sold me!
Well if you're sold on it, then I am too.
> A word of caution on this stuff. I tried brushing this stuff, and I
> might as well have glued the brush to the wood. It goes off FAST. I
> am fine brushing finishes that have long layout times like latex,
> poly, or oil based stuff. But you can count the seconds you have to
> get it right when you brush or pad this stuff. Their regular (non
> spray formula - which I have sprayed!) may be different.
>
> I am ONLY speaking of the spray formula. This isn't a problem for me
> as almost all high performance finishes are made to be sprayed, some
> spray only, these days.
I wouldn't dream of brushing something like this. I've been spraying stuff for 30 years, so
I'm already sold on the benefits. :-)
>> I've stopped using regular
>> nitrocellulose lacquer for things like this because it doesn't hold up well at all; it
>> breaks down and gets gummy, and you can scrape right it off with your fingernail.
>
> Yeah, me too. There are too many other finishes out there that leave
> it in the dust. I have no romance of connecting to the old ways of
> finishing, ESPECIALLY if it comes as a compromise in performance. Not
> one bit. One warranty call on my finish, and if it is the fault of
> the finish I won't use it again.
>
> I still shoot some Old Masters lacquer in occasion. Some folks don't
> want to pay a few buck more for the good stuff, and that is certainly
> their prerogative. The OM product isn't hard to find (I buy mine at
> Benjamin Moore) and is easy to shoot and easy to build. It finishes
> nicely and give good performance. No warranty from me though, except
> against peeling.
>
> Robert
Thanks for all the great advice Robert, as usual.
Scrolling ahead to page four, I see that it also comes in quarts. That's good, because I
was trying to decide which of the three grades (gloss, semi-gloss, or satin) to purchase; so
now I might just get one of each. A gallon would last me a LONG time, unless maybe I'd
could try to make some extra bucks by refinishing all the neighbors' doors! Any words about
which of those three grades you prefer using?
What about the product's ability to stay usable in the can? I'd guess that since it has the
property of melting into prior coats when applied that it wouldn't need something like
"Bloxygen" to keep it from wanting to "cure" in the can, correct?
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
[email protected] wrote:
<a bunch of incredible advice and information snipped, albiet reluctantly>
> If you jump in Steve, I would really be interested in what you think
> of this stuff. If you are used to spraying, this will be a real treat
> for you.
Two quart cans on order; one gloss, one satin. Can't wait to try it out!
> If you have anything else, just ask. I will be gone till next
> Wednesday as me and the SO are going away for Tday with a few more
> days tacked on.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
>
> Robert
As usual, the amount of time and energy you spend on your responses is a great
gift to everyone here, and it's _very_ much appreciated. I have precious
little time to keep up with the pace of this newsgroup, but your posts are a
pleasure to read and I don't miss a single word (which is more than I can say
for most other posts that are longer than a couple of short paragraphs...)
THANK YOU for answering all my silly questions. I will try to follow up with
some half-intelligent feedback once I've gained some experience with the
product, and I hope your Thanksgiving was a happy one too!
--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:17:40 -0600, Swingman wrote:
> You really don't need the dewaxed, if that is all you're using ... the
> dewaxed being essential for compatibility with lacquer, poly and other
> top coat finishes added post shellac application.
The dewaxed also resists moisture and water rings much better.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:52:31 -0800 (PST), the infamous Jay Pique
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On Nov 22, 9:13 am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Jay Pique wrote:
>> > Does anyone know the relative pound-cut of the standard shellac? I've
>> > found that the sealer is a 2lb. cut on their website. When spraying
>> > the standard shellac I've had to thin it some, so I was thinking of
>> > just buying the sealer and using that. But then I thought again and
>> > figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon
>> > of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. Any
>> > thoughts? Concerns? I'm just looking for a little affirmation here
>> > folks!
>>
>> 3 pound cut is what you get out of the can for the standard, althouugh
>> I've seen 4 and 5 pound cut at paint stores, and the sanding sealer, out
>> of the can should be a 2 pound cut.
>>
>> The sealer is dewaxed and works well when sprayed and can indeed be used
>> as the finish coat. I often used the amber 3 pound cut, thinned to a 1
>> 1/2 pound cut with isopropyl alcohol (depending upon the temp/humidity)
>> prayed on for the final coat.
>
>Thanks much.
>
>> There are quit a few threads on this in years past if you google.
>
>DAGS!!! I got lazy....sorry. I'm just finishing up a countertop that
>absolutely positively needs to be done before Thanksgiving so that's
>my excuse and I'm sticking with it!
Sprayed shellac or lacquer are pretty much your only hope, then.
Anything else would reek up the place for a month.
--
We have too many high sounding words, and too few actions that correspond
with them. -- Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, 1774
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:20:59 -0800 (PST), the infamous
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> scrawled the
following:
>On Nov 24, 4:52 pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Cool, thanks... but which stuff are you talking about exactly? They have five pages of
>> goodies in "finishes and sealers" section.
>
>At the bottom of the first page, it is listed as "Exterior Fast Dry
>Polyurethane GA" (Spray forumla). I have used gloss and satin.
>Don't know if this will work due to the wrap:
>
>http://kwickkleen.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=108&products_id=1400
>
>or
>
>http://tinyurl.com/y9635lf
>
>
>I have also used the second one down on page two, the " Kwick Kote
>High Solids- GA " for a high build finish. This stuff is sex. Check
>it out.... 30% solids!
The Waterlox Original I use has more like 20% solids, their Marine has
26% solids, but their Oil Modified Urethane Satin goes up to 46%
solids. So there! ;)
(No, I'm not saying that you should use anyone's urinestain.)
>You MUST buff/cut it down though as it will be too thick otherwise.
>
>I have probably shot a fifty+ gallons or so of that first selection
>and love it. I always spray it, and it is everything they say it is
>and more. I recoat in 30 minutes, and on exterior doors I can build 5
>coats in a day with no problems.
That's _always_ nice, isn't it? Do you have a turntable for spraying
doors or do you do them vertically?
>It thins well, and a the wildman that I know in Phoenix (that actually
>introduced me to this stuff a few years ago) cuts it by 50 - 75% with
>no finish failures. I personally have never cut by more than 50%.
>But it shows you how forgiving the product can be.
75% thinning? That's truly amazing!
>I have shot this with a CAS HVLP as well as my Fuji HVLP. No problems
>with either. Just make sure you thin with good, paint store lacquer
>like Sherwin Williams of BM, or others. NO Home Depot crap. They are
>good for gun wash, and not much else.
There's a difference in lacquer thinners? I've never shot finish and
generally just use lacquer thinner for cleaning prior to finishing.
>Note they sell this as a quick dry polyurethane. But when you read
>the info, you can see that they claim that the subsequent coats will
>melt into the first. They do! No witness lines on those next coats.
>And unlike actual polyurethane, this stuff is repairable. In
>practice, I cannot tell this stuff from lacquer when I spray it. But
>the cured finish is quite hard, very abrasion resistant, and if the
>exterior blend it has great UV resistance as well.
Yeah, they call it "maintainable", which is very, very unusual for
poly.
--
It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare;
it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.
-- Seneca