Ping Morris

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:91c067eb-f8ee-49e5-96d4-534f32f7bacc@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> Ran across this and thought you might be interested if you hadn't seen
> these already...maybe interested even if you had!
>
> http://sensi.org/~svo/motori/
>
I never saw a plotter draw mekid people before. My high school drafting
teacher would have got really upset about this.


> http://www.microrax.com/MicroRAX-Home.html
>
Marvelous toys. Kinda expensive, but very nice.

"J. Clarke" wrote
> Lee Michaels wrote:
>> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:91c067eb-f8ee-49e5-96d4-534f32f7bacc@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>>> Ran across this and thought you might be interested if you hadn't
>>> seen these already...maybe interested even if you had!
>>>
>>> http://sensi.org/~svo/motori/
>>>
>> I never saw a plotter draw nekid people before. My high school
>> drafting teacher would have got really upset about this.
>
> Gee, you gotta be a young fellow. I remember when any decent computer
> center had at least one piece of line-printer porn on the wall.
>
Not young, just not that plotter experienced.

On Oct 28, 8:22=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:

>, it'll dawn on you that everything around you would work better
> if you could program it in g-code.
>

NOBODY expects the G-Code!

On Oct 31, 12:11=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> Greg G. wrote:
> > Morris Dovey said:
>
> >> Greg G. wrote:
> >>> I'm curious, what are you using for the heat exchanger?
> >> /Very/ thin, glossy black aluminum ribbon.
>
> > Glossy, not flat or carbon black =A0- that is interesting.
>
> It was to me, too. That the ribbon starts out black is just a nod to
> what everyone "knows" about how collectors work.
>
> What's /really/ interesting is that highly polished gold ribbon should
> work even better - but, of course, it'd still /appear/ black to
> observers - and the increase in performance would be very small relative
> to the increase in cost.
>
> Remember my 'breakthrough' question? This is where the answer led.
>
> > Flat ribbon, not rippled or stamped with fins?
>
> Right - not flat, not rippled, and not stamped with fins. :)
>
> ...Morris

I saw some cobwebs wafting in the breeze from the panels already....
and the trees blocking the sun are still quite full of leaves.

On Oct 31, 1:08=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > I saw some cobwebs wafting in the breeze from the panels already....
> > and the trees blocking the sun are still quite full of leaves.
>
> Heh - isn't astronomy fun? That's your analog non-electric
> no-moving-parts thermostat waking up... :-D
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Not to pick a nit, but aren't there moving parts in this thermostat?
Like BIG ones? :-)

Morris Dovey wrote:
> Greg G. wrote:
>
>> ... (many builders still can't or don't care about insulating
>> properly - regardless of laws which are in place), millions of older
>> (and new) homes which are not effectively insulated, building designs
>> which make it difficult to achieve optimal R factors.
>
> Methinks this is because home buyers are unaware of what's possible and
> lack the basis for good decision-making. Good designs and good
> insulation needn't be costly - and are certainly less costly in the long
> run. Recalling the truism that Perfect is often the enemy of Good,
> Optimal would be nice, but people need to know enough to insist on Good.

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00018-20090528-1034.jpg

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Morris Dovey wrote:

> That looks good indeed! Did you buy the equipment or did someone else do
> that? If there are some nice crisp show-n-tell photos available, I'd be
> pleased to add a few to my web site and include source and contact info.

Straw bale house I just built for a client.

> Why the only partial fill between rafters?

Those TJI's are 12" deep .... way more than enough Icynene without
filling them to the bottom.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Morris Dovey said:

>Greg G. wrote:
>
>> How is the recent energy stimulus affecting your collector business?
>
>Heh. It's brought out the opportunists out like a cloud of mosquitos -
>mostly "marketing" folks who know nothing about management, production,
>building, physical science, business, and whose vision extends only to
>buy low / sell high. Every one of 'em has pointed at sure-to-come
>government subsidies as a guaranteed source of incredible wealth for
>anyone who has "positioned" themselves properly at the public trough.
>When I tell 'em that a viable business plan is a prerequisite for any
>negotiations, every one of 'em so far has gone "Huff huff" and vanished.
>
>The folks who would most benefit from the panels didn't see enough of
>the stimulus dollars to make any significant difference in their lives -
>certainly not enough difference to be able to permanently buy-down their
>heating costs. From my perspective, the middle class is vanishing (and
>they're _not_ moving /up/ the scale).
>
>The collector business has been shrinking.

I suspected as much. Sometime back in Feb I went downtown and ended up
sitting next to a couple of "used car salesman" types as they eagerly
discussed how they were going to sell and install photovoltaic's in
order to reap their personal fortunes via new energy bills. They also
seemed to be under the illusion that a roof full of cells would
somehow generate enough wattage to not only power the commercial
establishment, but sell back to the power company. I had to think to
myself, "Only if the business is growing mushrooms."

Don't misunderstand, I've been following the alternate/passive energy
field for years, starting with MIT and their solar assisted earth
bermed homes projects back in the 70s. But I realize the limitations.

Speaking of limitations, there was an ad on TV the other day hawking
natural gas. The announcer proudly declares that. "America has enough
natural gas stores to fuel the country for 100 years." 100 whole
years, eh? And what after that - brush fires? At what rate of
consumption? Combined with what other fuels? As much as I'd like to
believe that we will come up with a way to easily break the covalent
bonds in water or develop some miracle energy source that draws power
from an alternate dimension, the realist side of what passed for my
brain says that until that new technology is proven perhaps we should
watch what we waste. Future generations may well look back and curse
our existence and folly. If we've managed to use up 50% of the world's
fuel stores in a scant 100 years, it doesn't look very bright for the
next 100. With the rapid development of several previously third world
nations that we've brought into the consumption age with our wholesale
migration of manufacturing, we now have 1.3 billion new competitors
for those energy stores. But I guess I'm preaching to the choir, eh?

I suppose we should look at the bright side - we can always burn oil
executives and bankers for heat. And politicians are always good for
a blast of hot air. 535 of them should heat up a good size boiler.

As for the middle class - agreed. It's been sliding downhill for a
decade or so.

Hang in there, it may be improving somewhat.



Greg G.

Morris Dovey said:

>> I'm working on this PC board drill / mechanical wooden clock parts /
>> aluminum mill constructed from junk box electronic parts and scrap
>> wood:
>
>Interesting! Please post photos as you build, and another video when
>it's running!

I'll try. I'll probably add it to my hobby web site along with the
schematics and source code for the microcontroller and a simple DIY
PIC programmer.

>You do understand that you're on a very slippery slope here, yes?
>
>Approximately 1 nsec after you cut your first perfect part with this
>machine, it'll dawn on you that everything around you would work better
>if you could program it in g-code.

Not really. I've been surrounded by electronics since I was a kid and
thus am already on the slope. But you are right - it does work better
with G-Code. Not as pleasing as G-Strings, but what the hey...

My next project along these lines was supposed to be a mill which
turns segmented wooden bowls on a lathe. That solves the problem of
consistent wall thickness, exploding parts, and labor - especially
since no one around here can afford or wants to spend $300 on a piece
of handmade art that took 30 hours to make.

How is the recent energy stimulus affecting your collector business?


Greg G.

Swingman said:

>Morris Dovey wrote:
>> Greg G. wrote:
>>
>>> ... (many builders still can't or don't care about insulating
>>> properly - regardless of laws which are in place), millions of older
>>> (and new) homes which are not effectively insulated, building designs
>>> which make it difficult to achieve optimal R factors.
>>
>> Methinks this is because home buyers are unaware of what's possible and
>> lack the basis for good decision-making. Good designs and good
>> insulation needn't be costly - and are certainly less costly in the long
>> run. Recalling the truism that Perfect is often the enemy of Good,
>> Optimal would be nice, but people need to know enough to insist on Good.
>
>http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00018-20090528-1034.jpg


Hey, Swingman!

Uh... Perhaps I'm missing something, but what the hell kind of
construction is this? It looks like something I saw in Reynosa,
Mexico. I could fill a notebook with the code violations in this
photo. What is holding up the right corner of the.. err... building?
Over where the water damage is... It looks as though the stubbed out
closet thing on the left has more integrity than the whole of the
building. That wiring, the roof, the walls, the window header, jack
and king studs (or lack thereof). I thought of post and beam but there
seem to be neither. I can't see the cross section of the walls, but...

The insulation in the gables looks OK, but what am I missing here?
Was the insulation used to glue this thing together?


Greg G.

Morris Dovey said:

>Very good article - and I like the way Viacheslav thinks! I did think
>his complaints about drilling PC boards were humorous since all he
>needed to do was replace the plotter pen with a small drill... :)

Hey, Morris
I'm working on this PC board drill / mechanical wooden clock parts /
aluminum mill constructed from junk box electronic parts and scrap
wood:

http://webpages.charter.net/videodoctor/media/CompleteAssembly5.avi
(Intel Indeo codec - Windoze platform AVI)

Steppers are controlled by homebrew PIC microcontrollers and linear
drivers. Thought you might be interested in the SolidWorks rendering
of the mechanism.

FWIW,
Greg G.

On Oct 31, 5:23=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Nifty project ... looking back I enjoyed it, but damn glad to be
> finished. It was my first "alternative construction" project, but now
> that the cherry is broke, I would do another in a heartbeat ... besides
> I am now one of the few in the area _well_ qualified to build one now. <g=
>
>

I know that feeling. On a smaller scale. A way to mitre the joints in
1-1/4" quartz led from a sample to jobs which turn out quite
challeging and rewarding. Speaking of 'alternative' <G>
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/CambriaMitresample.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/CambriaMitreInstall3.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/CambriaMitreInstall5.jpg

Morris Dovey said:

>There's a desperate need for education here - the guys you overheard
>almost certainly believed what they were saying, and the folks they sell
>to aren't any more knowledgeable. PV technology has been improving, and
>the prices are coming down - but neither to the point that PV panels are
>the hoped-for panacea.

You touch upon two of the subjects I was going to mention, but the
message was getting a bit wordy. Yes, there are new technologies -
flexible thin film deposited PVs which cost less to manufacture, PV
paints, and heightened efficiency levels of existing technology. Of
course, what works in New Mexico is unlikely to work nearly as well in
Seattle. Every bit helps, however, and I, for one, find the prospect
of reducing the funds fed into energy corporations to be money well
invested - as long as the life span and maintenance of a device makes
it profitable long term. Lightning strikes, failing inverters, banks
of storage batteries with limited life spans all cut into the
durability of such systems and increase their long term costs. One of
our biggest problems is that we simply consume huge amount of energy,
often for no real benefit. Zombie appliances which consume power even
when off (getting better with new designs), leakage into the
environment (many builders still can't or don't care about insulating
properly - regardless of laws which are in place), millions of older
(and new) homes which are not effectively insulated, building designs
which make it difficult to achieve optimal R factors.

>> Don't misunderstand, I've been following the alternate/passive energy
>> field for years, starting with MIT and their solar assisted earth
>> bermed homes projects back in the 70s. But I realize the limitations.
>
>Solar heating technology has improved considerably and the limitations
>aren't as restrictive as they were back then - but there /are/ some very
>real limits. The good news is that a capable architect can design a
>building to make those limits moot - and the bad news is that we're not
>(apparently) teaching new architects to that level of competence.

Agreed. The entire construction industry and its supporting
infrastructure of material suppliers and architects is geared towards
producing the same old stuff. Makes it far more expensive to
construct anything unconventional. Even the CAD programs I have are
almost exclusively geared towards producing homes with walls and roofs
containing ~20% thermal bridges in the walls and even more losses in
the wall/ceiling junctions. None have facilities to compute energy
losses or gains from site location or solar, nor do they consider
solar storage facilities, collectors, PVs, or much of anything else
outside the mainstream. It's all about the facade.

>I had believed that, for a structure to be kept comfortably warm,
>special construction techniques such as you mentioned would be required
>- then in 2007 I installed a pair of heating panels in an ordinary post
>and beam farm building that have kept it at least comfortably warm
>through all the winters since. A few of the folks here may have noticed
>that I got pretty excited about that. :)

I'm sure the owner was excited! But again, more prone to be
successful is some areas than others. Clouds, rain, trees, site
location and orientation, and winds all effect the ultimate success of
such a venture. Personally, I wouldn't mind living 25 feet underground
if it keeps the riffraff away should economic collapse occur. Being
bulletproof and quiet is the icing. ;-)

I've had my fill of the urban cacophony of train whistles,
helicopters, planes, domestic disturbances, gunshots and sirens.

>[ There /was/ a breakthrough involved. One night I realized that I was
>trying to solve a problem in applied physics and that I needed to start
>asking very different questions, like "What /really/ happens when light
>strikes a surface?" Answers were non-intuitive and led (directly) to
>more questions. Real physicists were willing to provide guidance and
>encouragement, and occasionally even suggested the next question for me
>to investigate. I don't recall that I'd ever studied so hard in school. ]

Nothing good is ever easy. Yet being a leader isn't always profitable.
It takes time for the sheep to adapt, and you're as likely to be
branded a pariah as a profit for pushing energy efficiency. I get a
LOT of pushback in the moronic south over such topics.

>> I suppose we should look at the bright side - we can always burn oil
>> executives and bankers for heat. And politicians are always good for
>> a blast of hot air. 535 of them should heat up a good size boiler.
>
>It's a tempting thought - but the truth is that they're in business to
>deliver the goods and services we're willing to pay for (yes even, or
>perhaps /especially/ the politicians). First lets use up the supply of
>lawyers who act on the premise that law is more important than justice -
>I'd guess that would weed out a lot of politicians.

It was an attempt at humor, of course. One of our biggest impediments
is that common sense isn't, and that meaningful change takes effort.

>Perhaps, but as the hot dog vendor said: "Change comes from within".
>
>Most people seem to be hoping that enough /other/ people will change so
>they won't have to change themselves...

Women hate me because I turn out the lights in empty rooms and when
they come back an hour later they have to turn them back on. I replace
windows with "better" windows, insulate, seal leaks, conserve water,
run the cloths and dishwashers only when needed and with full loads.
I've used CFs and full spectrum T8 bulbs with electronic ballasts
since the 80s. Partially for the light spectrum, partially for the
energy savings.

Women will also wash three pairs of underwear and use up an entire
cabinet of dishes in two days rather than rinse and reuse (dishes).
I feel like a lone soldier in a war against excessive consumption.
(By "women", I am referring to ex's, the one I work with now, and
friends wives. Surely there are some who are similarly frugal.)

It's lonely out there on the front. ;-)


Greg G.

RicodJour wrote:

> Ran across this and thought you might be interested if you hadn't seen
> these already...maybe interested even if you had!
>
> http://sensi.org/~svo/motori/

Very good article - and I like the way Viacheslav thinks! I did think
his complaints about drilling PC boards were humorous since all he
needed to do was replace the plotter pen with a small drill... :)

> http://www.microrax.com/MicroRAX-Home.html

I could actually /use/ something like this (prototyping parabolic trough
tracking systems), but it's prices like Twintec's that keep me working
with wood. :(

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:91c067eb-f8ee-49e5-96d4-534f32f7bacc@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>> Ran across this and thought you might be interested if you hadn't
>> seen these already...maybe interested even if you had!
>>
>> http://sensi.org/~svo/motori/
>>
> I never saw a plotter draw mekid people before. My high school
> drafting teacher would have got really upset about this.

Gee, you gotta be a young fellow. I remember when any decent computer
center had at least one piece of line-printer porn on the wall.

>> http://www.microrax.com/MicroRAX-Home.html
>>
> Marvelous toys. Kinda expensive, but very nice.

[email protected] wrote:

> I'm working on this PC board drill / mechanical wooden clock parts /
> aluminum mill constructed from junk box electronic parts and scrap
> wood:
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/videodoctor/media/CompleteAssembly5.avi
> (Intel Indeo codec - Windoze platform AVI)

Interesting! Please post photos as you build, and another video when
it's running!

> Steppers are controlled by homebrew PIC microcontrollers and linear
> drivers. Thought you might be interested in the SolidWorks rendering
> of the mechanism.

You do understand that you're on a very slippery slope here, yes?

Approximately 1 nsec after you cut your first perfect part with this
machine, it'll dawn on you that everything around you would work better
if you could program it in g-code.

:-D

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Greg G. wrote:

> How is the recent energy stimulus affecting your collector business?

Heh. It's brought out the opportunists out like a cloud of mosquitos -
mostly "marketing" folks who know nothing about management, production,
building, physical science, business, and whose vision extends only to
buy low / sell high. Every one of 'em has pointed at sure-to-come
government subsidies as a guaranteed source of incredible wealth for
anyone who has "positioned" themselves properly at the public trough.
When I tell 'em that a viable business plan is a prerequisite for any
negotiations, every one of 'em so far has gone "Huff huff" and vanished.

The folks who would most benefit from the panels didn't see enough of
the stimulus dollars to make any significant difference in their lives -
certainly not enough difference to be able to permanently buy-down their
heating costs. From my perspective, the middle class is vanishing (and
they're _not_ moving /up/ the scale).

The collector business has been shrinking.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Greg G. wrote:
> Morris Dovey said:
>
>> Greg G. wrote:
>>
>>> How is the recent energy stimulus affecting your collector business?
>> Heh. It's brought out the opportunists out like a cloud of mosquitos -
>> mostly "marketing" folks who know nothing about management, production,
>> building, physical science, business, and whose vision extends only to
>> buy low / sell high. Every one of 'em has pointed at sure-to-come
>> government subsidies as a guaranteed source of incredible wealth for
>> anyone who has "positioned" themselves properly at the public trough.
>> When I tell 'em that a viable business plan is a prerequisite for any
>> negotiations, every one of 'em so far has gone "Huff huff" and vanished.
>>
>> The folks who would most benefit from the panels didn't see enough of
>> the stimulus dollars to make any significant difference in their lives -
>> certainly not enough difference to be able to permanently buy-down their
>> heating costs. From my perspective, the middle class is vanishing (and
>> they're _not_ moving /up/ the scale).
>>
>> The collector business has been shrinking.
>
> I suspected as much. Sometime back in Feb I went downtown and ended up
> sitting next to a couple of "used car salesman" types as they eagerly
> discussed how they were going to sell and install photovoltaic's in
> order to reap their personal fortunes via new energy bills. They also
> seemed to be under the illusion that a roof full of cells would
> somehow generate enough wattage to not only power the commercial
> establishment, but sell back to the power company. I had to think to
> myself, "Only if the business is growing mushrooms."

There's a desperate need for education here - the guys you overheard
almost certainly believed what they were saying, and the folks they sell
to aren't any more knowledgeable. PV technology has been improving, and
the prices are coming down - but neither to the point that PV panels are
the hoped-for panacea.

> Don't misunderstand, I've been following the alternate/passive energy
> field for years, starting with MIT and their solar assisted earth
> bermed homes projects back in the 70s. But I realize the limitations.

Solar heating technology has improved considerably and the limitations
aren't as restrictive as they were back then - but there /are/ some very
real limits. The good news is that a capable architect can design a
building to make those limits moot - and the bad news is that we're not
(apparently) teaching new architects to that level of competence.

I had believed that, for a structure to be kept comfortably warm,
special construction techniques such as you mentioned would be required
- then in 2007 I installed a pair of heating panels in an ordinary post
and beam farm building that have kept it at least comfortably warm
through all the winters since. A few of the folks here may have noticed
that I got pretty excited about that. :)

[ There /was/ a breakthrough involved. One night I realized that I was
trying to solve a problem in applied physics and that I needed to start
asking very different questions, like "What /really/ happens when light
strikes a surface?" Answers were non-intuitive and led (directly) to
more questions. Real physicists were willing to provide guidance and
encouragement, and occasionally even suggested the next question for me
to investigate. I don't recall that I'd ever studied so hard in school. ]

When you bring thermally efficient construction materials like SIPs into
the picture, the old limitations are pretty much blown away.

> Speaking of limitations, there was an ad on TV the other day hawking
> natural gas. The announcer proudly declares that. "America has enough
> natural gas stores to fuel the country for 100 years." 100 whole
> years, eh? And what after that - brush fires? At what rate of
> consumption? Combined with what other fuels? As much as I'd like to
> believe that we will come up with a way to easily break the covalent
> bonds in water or develop some miracle energy source that draws power
> from an alternate dimension, the realist side of what passed for my
> brain says that until that new technology is proven perhaps we should
> watch what we waste. Future generations may well look back and curse
> our existence and folly. If we've managed to use up 50% of the world's
> fuel stores in a scant 100 years, it doesn't look very bright for the
> next 100. With the rapid development of several previously third world
> nations that we've brought into the consumption age with our wholesale
> migration of manufacturing, we now have 1.3 billion new competitors
> for those energy stores. But I guess I'm preaching to the choir, eh?

It would seem that for more than a million years, whenever humans needed
energy, we burned something. Now that there are six billion of us, that
paradigm no longer serves out interests.

> I suppose we should look at the bright side - we can always burn oil
> executives and bankers for heat. And politicians are always good for
> a blast of hot air. 535 of them should heat up a good size boiler.

It's a tempting thought - but the truth is that they're in business to
deliver the goods and services we're willing to pay for (yes even, or
perhaps /especially/ the politicians). First lets use up the supply of
lawyers who act on the premise that law is more important than justice -
I'd guess that would weed out a lot of politicians.

> As for the middle class - agreed. It's been sliding downhill for a
> decade or so.
>
> Hang in there, it may be improving somewhat.

Perhaps, but as the hot dog vendor said: "Change comes from within".

Most people seem to be hoping that enough /other/ people will change so
they won't have to change themselves...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Greg G. wrote:

> ... (many builders still can't or don't care about insulating
> properly - regardless of laws which are in place), millions of older
> (and new) homes which are not effectively insulated, building designs
> which make it difficult to achieve optimal R factors.

Methinks this is because home buyers are unaware of what's possible and
lack the basis for good decision-making. Good designs and good
insulation needn't be costly - and are certainly less costly in the long
run. Recalling the truism that Perfect is often the enemy of Good,
Optimal would be nice, but people need to know enough to insist on Good.

>> Solar heating technology has improved considerably and the limitations
>> aren't as restrictive as they were back then - but there /are/ some very
>> real limits. The good news is that a capable architect can design a
>> building to make those limits moot - and the bad news is that we're not
>> (apparently) teaching new architects to that level of competence.
>
> Agreed. The entire construction industry and its supporting
> infrastructure of material suppliers and architects is geared towards
> producing the same old stuff. Makes it far more expensive to
> construct anything unconventional. Even the CAD programs I have are
> almost exclusively geared towards producing homes with walls and roofs
> containing ~20% thermal bridges in the walls and even more losses in
> the wall/ceiling junctions. None have facilities to compute energy
> losses or gains from site location or solar, nor do they consider
> solar storage facilities, collectors, PVs, or much of anything else
> outside the mainstream. It's all about the facade.

It would seem so. After the fact, I did the thermal storage calculations
for that farm shop building. It turned out that the 6" slab floor (6" so
that the owner could bring heavy equipment inside) when warmed to
whatever room temperature (any temperature you care to choose that might
reasonably fit that usage) contains enough heat to raise the temperature
of the air in the building (with 10' ceilings) from /absolute/ /zero/ to
that same temperature _73_ times! I posted source code for that
calculation to alt.solar.thermal on 2/21/2009 with the subject "Re:
Physics help please - heat storage (summary)". It's fairly well
commented - and I put it squarely into the public domain. Please feel
welcome to use and share it.

>> I had believed that, for a structure to be kept comfortably warm,
>> special construction techniques such as you mentioned would be required
>> - then in 2007 I installed a pair of heating panels in an ordinary post
>> and beam farm building that have kept it at least comfortably warm
>> through all the winters since. A few of the folks here may have noticed
>> that I got pretty excited about that. :)
>
> I'm sure the owner was excited! But again, more prone to be
> successful is some areas than others. Clouds, rain, trees, site
> location and orientation, and winds all effect the ultimate success of
> such a venture. Personally, I wouldn't mind living 25 feet underground
> if it keeps the riffraff away should economic collapse occur. Being
> bulletproof and quiet is the icing. ;-)

He was so excited he shook. Robatoy installed a panel up in Kanuckistan,
and posted here (Dec 2008 - subject was "Solar heat for the shop. ^5's
Morris!") when he installed it.

In general, if there's enough sunlight that you can comfortably read a
newspaper, then there's enough energy available to provide a useful
amount of heat.

> I've had my fill of the urban cacophony of train whistles,
> helicopters, planes, domestic disturbances, gunshots and sirens.

I'm not particularly fond of the noise either, but I've still enjoyed
the times when I've lived in cities. It's strange, now that I think
about it, but the cities I enjoyed the most were some of the noisiest.
Go figure. :)

>> [ There /was/ a breakthrough involved. One night I realized that I was
>> trying to solve a problem in applied physics and that I needed to start
>> asking very different questions, like "What /really/ happens when light
>> strikes a surface?" Answers were non-intuitive and led (directly) to
>> more questions. Real physicists were willing to provide guidance and
>> encouragement, and occasionally even suggested the next question for me
>> to investigate. I don't recall that I'd ever studied so hard in school. ]
>
> Nothing good is ever easy. Yet being a leader isn't always profitable.
> It takes time for the sheep to adapt, and you're as likely to be
> branded a pariah as a profit for pushing energy efficiency. I get a
> LOT of pushback in the moronic south over such topics.

Hmm - you probably didn't realize that you were talking with a Georgia
boy... ;-)

...some people just need to be shown.

> It was an attempt at humor, of course. One of our biggest impediments
> is that common sense isn't, and that meaningful change takes effort.

Of course - some of my best friends are attorneys. :-]

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Swingman wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:

>> Methinks this is because home buyers are unaware of what's possible
>> and lack the basis for good decision-making. Good designs and good
>> insulation needn't be costly - and are certainly less costly in the
>> long run. Recalling the truism that Perfect is often the enemy of
>> Good, Optimal would be nice, but people need to know enough to insist
>> on Good.
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00018-20090528-1034.jpg

That looks good indeed! Did you buy the equipment or did someone else do
that? If there are some nice crisp show-n-tell photos available, I'd be
pleased to add a few to my web site and include source and contact info.

Why the only partial fill between rafters?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Greg G. wrote:
> Morris Dovey said:

>> I posted source code for that
>> calculation to alt.solar.thermal on 2/21/2009 with the subject "Re:
>> Physics help please - heat storage (summary)". It's fairly well
>> commented - and I put it squarely into the public domain. Please feel
>> welcome to use and share it.
>
> I grabbed it and will probably throw together a tiny program that
> allows entering the variables and what ifing without recompiling the
> program. You are welcome to it, and will credit your efforts.

No need - the real credit goes to the guys who helped me formulate the
problem earlier in the thread. The summary post was to give everyone a
final opportunity to point out any errors I might have had.

It was an eye-opener for me - and helped me understand why the building
was always comfortably warm in the morning when that 10'x10' door had
been opened in the evening to "let all the heat out" when he put his
pickup truck away.

> You should grab a copy of MathCAD, Mathmatica or Maple.
> You'd love the graphs and charts...

I should, but my shopping list is already impossibly long. I cheat by
writing macros to turn my cad package into a plotting program. It's not
as elegant, but it gets the job done.

> I'm curious, what are you using for the heat exchanger?

/Very/ thin, glossy black aluminum ribbon.

> Is the glazing polycarbonate or glass?

It's a 6mm twinwall polycarbonate roofing product with a cross section
that looks like a ladder. I chose it because it's safer and more durable
than glass, and because it's a particularly good insulator.

> Do you bother to insulate the framing of the units?

I don't because five of the six surfaces are (at least mostly) inside
the structure's skin. The gap around the perimeter is normally filled
with insulating foam, so it's just not worth (also) insulating the inside.

> Hey, I'd be so excited about removing another hole from my wallet I
> might need a rag to clean up. ;-)

He has a neighbor who has a shop about the same size and who pays out
about half the installed price of the two panels every year for propane
to heat his shop (only when he's actually working in it). The good news
for my customer is that his shop is /always/ warm - and the bad news is
that his wife now stores her plants in the shop during the winter...

>> In general, if there's enough sunlight that you can comfortably read a
>> newspaper, then there's enough energy available to provide a useful
>> amount of heat.
>
> I have no data with which to form an opinion, and haven't actually
> built anything due to my location but that is good to know. I may
> throw something together after looking over your site.

(unabashed brag) It takes a really good absorber/heat exchanger for me
to be able to make that claim. Don't just throw something together.
Think about the problem first (it's truly a systems problem) and /then/
throw it together. :)

> Unfortunately, I live in a topographical depression surrounded by
> trees and get little sunlight at the south end of the house, even in
> winter, due to the quantity of pine trees. Roses won't even grow along
> the south wall. The west side receives far more, but that not an
> optimal place for a collector in the south unless it is shuttered.

Bummer.

>>> I've had my fill of the urban cacophony of train whistles,
>>> helicopters, planes, domestic disturbances, gunshots and sirens.
>> I'm not particularly fond of the noise either, but I've still enjoyed
>> the times when I've lived in cities. It's strange, now that I think
>> about it, but the cities I enjoyed the most were some of the noisiest.
>> Go figure. :)
>
>
> I like the restaurants and creative community, but the crime, traffic
> problems, and strangely lacking economies of scale make large cities
> undesirable for me. Atlanta was a far better place when it had less
> than a million people and considerably fewer carpetbagger politicians.

I was born in the Emory hospital and lived in a two story apartment on
Peachtree - which then was a quiet two-lane street, and behind the
apartment building there were woods. Somewhere I have photos to prove
it, and I have an 8x10 of the tiny Atlanta airport with a lone Eastern
Airlines DC-3 parked on the tarmac. It's changed a lot.

>> Hmm - you probably didn't realize that you were talking with a Georgia
>> boy... ;-)
>
> Actually, I didn't. I was born in downtown Atlanta and lived in GA
> until 30. I left after being endlessly harassed by a bunch of crooked
> right-wing politicians, an idiot Nixon era assistant US District
> attorney and his sycophant friends. Even your past employer, IBM,
> figures into that long, demented story as well. I still get flack
> over it 22 years later. If I call an attorney in the state of Georgia
> they either hang up or transfer me to voice mail when I mention my
> name. The last democratic governor of the state, who is also a lawyer
> of sorts, won't talk to me and I worked on his TV as a kid. I am left
> to conclude that they are an arrogant, collusive, self-serving lot of
> cretins.

I haven't spent much time in Atlanta since 1960, but I recall that even
that late it was socially important to be either a member of (or closely
associated with) a "good" old family, and that social linkage was a
major factor being able to conduct serious business. I can imagine just
how crazy things must have become when the tsunami of damyankees washed
over the city not long after. I'd guess that "demented" might be
euphemistic. :)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Greg G. wrote:
> Swingman said:
>
>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>> Greg G. wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... (many builders still can't or don't care about insulating
>>>> properly - regardless of laws which are in place), millions of
>>>> older (and new) homes which are not effectively insulated,
>>>> building designs which make it difficult to achieve optimal R
>>>> factors.
>>>
>>> Methinks this is because home buyers are unaware of what's possible
>>> and lack the basis for good decision-making. Good designs and good
>>> insulation needn't be costly - and are certainly less costly in the
>>> long run. Recalling the truism that Perfect is often the enemy of
>>> Good, Optimal would be nice, but people need to know enough to
>>> insist on Good.
>>
>> http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/IMG00018-20090528-1034.jpg
>
>
> Hey, Swingman!
>
> Uh... Perhaps I'm missing something, but what the hell kind of
> construction is this? It looks like something I saw in Reynosa,
> Mexico. I could fill a notebook with the code violations in this
> photo. What is holding up the right corner of the.. err... building?
> Over where the water damage is... It looks as though the stubbed out
> closet thing on the left has more integrity than the whole of the
> building. That wiring, the roof, the walls, the window header, jack
> and king studs (or lack thereof). I thought of post and beam but there
> seem to be neither. I can't see the cross section of the walls, but...
>
> The insulation in the gables looks OK, but what am I missing here?
> Was the insulation used to glue this thing together?

Google "straw bale construction". That stuff you see on the walls isn't
OSB, it's straw bales. As to filling the book with code violations, go
ahead, but first make sure you're looking at the right code. And yes, in an
increasing number of localities there _is_ code for straw bale construction.

Greg G. wrote:
> Morris Dovey said:
>
>> Greg G. wrote:

>>> I'm curious, what are you using for the heat exchanger?
>> /Very/ thin, glossy black aluminum ribbon.
>
> Glossy, not flat or carbon black - that is interesting.

It was to me, too. That the ribbon starts out black is just a nod to
what everyone "knows" about how collectors work.

What's /really/ interesting is that highly polished gold ribbon should
work even better - but, of course, it'd still /appear/ black to
observers - and the increase in performance would be very small relative
to the increase in cost.

Remember my 'breakthrough' question? This is where the answer led.

> Flat ribbon, not rippled or stamped with fins?

Right - not flat, not rippled, and not stamped with fins. :)

...Morris

Robatoy wrote:

> I saw some cobwebs wafting in the breeze from the panels already....
> and the trees blocking the sun are still quite full of leaves.

Heh - isn't astronomy fun? That's your analog non-electric
no-moving-parts thermostat waking up... :-D

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Robatoy wrote:
> On Oct 31, 1:08 pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>> I saw some cobwebs wafting in the breeze from the panels already....
>>> and the trees blocking the sun are still quite full of leaves.
>>
>> Heh - isn't astronomy fun? That's your analog non-electric
>> no-moving-parts thermostat waking up... :-D
>
> Not to pick a nit, but aren't there moving parts in this thermostat?
> Like BIG ones? :-)

I guess you're right. Say - I should probably advertise that the
thermostat comes with an unconditional 1000-year warranty. :)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Greg G. said:

>The insulation in the gables looks OK, but what am I missing here?
>Was the insulation used to glue this thing together?

If this is your home or shop, pardon me. ;-) The fuzziness of the
photo makes it difficult to see the details - but it kinda made my
hair stand on end when I first saw it. Perhaps it is an optical
illusion. I seem to recall looking at some homes you built a few
years ago and was pretty certain that you built some fine looking
houses. Is this the inside of one? :-o


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:

>
> Hey, Swingman!
>
> Uh... Perhaps I'm missing something, but what the hell kind of
> construction is this? It looks like something I saw in Reynosa,
> Mexico. I could fill a notebook with the code violations in this
> photo.

LOL. You could try, but you'd fail miserably. :)

Rest assured this puppy is structurally engineered to the max and has
passed strict structural engineering requirements and ALL residential
code inspections from ass to appetite ... foundation, framing,
electrical, mechanical, plumbing, and my own anal persona. :)

What is holding up the right corner of the.. err... building?
> Over where the water damage is... It looks as though the stubbed out
> closet thing on the left has more integrity than the whole of the
> building. That wiring, the roof, the walls, the window header, jack
> and king studs (or lack thereof). I thought of post and beam but there
> seem to be neither. I can't see the cross section of the walls, but...

It's a post and beam, infill, straw bale wall, new SF residential
construction (2200 sf, single story, completed 10/1/09).

Travis Cty, Texas is one of the few places that has a straw bale wall
construction building code. All you can see from the photographs is
insulation and the straw bales, none of the structural framing in
visible, so don't fool yourself thinking you can see code violations ...
trust me, there are NONE! :)

> The insulation in the gables looks OK, but what am I missing here?
> Was the insulation used to glue this thing together?

Estimated R42 - R48 value, all mechanical ductwork in thermal envelope.
I didn't go for a LEEDS certification on this one because of the added
expense due to the initial engineering completed too late for the first
few LEEDS registration requirements ... it would have held the project
up and played havoc with the construction schedule. Too bad, though ...
it was built to that spec and would have passed.

Nifty project ... looking back I enjoyed it, but damn glad to be
finished. It was my first "alternative construction" project, but now
that the cherry is broke, I would do another in a heartbeat ... besides
I am now one of the few in the area _well_ qualified to build one now. <g>

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Morris Dovey said:

>Greg G. wrote:
>>
>It was an eye-opener for me - and helped me understand why the building
>was always comfortably warm in the morning when that 10'x10' door had
>been opened in the evening to "let all the heat out" when he put his
>pickup truck away.

Thermal mass is an important part of the system. Especially when it
gets -30F. I could never tolerate that kind of cold, having lived in
temperate climates my entire life. It only gets worse with advancing
age.

I remember a young architect in Arizona using steel barrels filled
with antifreeze solution as thermal mass - and walls - for his studio
back in the 70's. The antifreeze was double duty - rust control and to
prohibit expansion from freezing.

>> I'm curious, what are you using for the heat exchanger?
>
>/Very/ thin, glossy black aluminum ribbon.

Glossy, not flat or carbon black - that is interesting.
Flat ribbon, not rippled or stamped with fins?

>> Is the glazing polycarbonate or glass?
>
>It's a 6mm twinwall polycarbonate roofing product with a cross section

Sounds like the stuff used on greenhouse windows.
I built a greenhouse window add-on and tried to use a similar product
but no one stocked it locally and the freight for the panels was
outrageous. I couldn't believe that with a half dozen plastic
distributors the stuff was not available locally.

>He has a neighbor who has a shop about the same size and who pays out
>about half the installed price of the two panels every year for propane
>to heat his shop (only when he's actually working in it). The good news
>for my customer is that his shop is /always/ warm - and the bad news is
>that his wife now stores her plants in the shop during the winter...

Already have that problem now. All of them. Kerosene tripled in price
after buying a heater for the shop - after carefully calculating the
BTU/lb and cost of every energy source available. Now they all run
just about the same per BTU. Fancy that...

Also have various plants including two Daturas blooming in the shop as
we speak. They sure smell up the place before going dormant.

>I was born in the Emory hospital and lived in a two story apartment on
>Peachtree - which then was a quiet two-lane street, and behind the
>apartment building there were woods. Somewhere I have photos to prove
>it, and I have an 8x10 of the tiny Atlanta airport with a lone Eastern
>Airlines DC-3 parked on the tarmac. It's changed a lot.

Yup. Was born in St. Joseph's Hospital before it was absorbed by the
Piedmont Hospital Group - a definite "for profit" entity. Had friends
that worked for Eastern and we built some pretty hot rotary engines.
Eastern is gone, of course, and so are most of the woods. The city is
essentially dead at night - the hundreds of bars and restaurants are
mostly gone. Even the ESPN place closed last month. It is sad to
compare what was with what is.

>I haven't spent much time in Atlanta since 1960, but I recall that even
>that late it was socially important to be either a member of (or closely
>associated with) a "good" old family, and that social linkage was a
>major factor being able to conduct serious business. I can imagine just
>how crazy things must have become when the tsunami of damyankees washed
>over the city not long after. I'd guess that "demented" might be
>euphemistic. :)

Well that explains the inbreeding, dementia, and cronyism of those in
power. And the outlying areas, like Marietta, Whew! Just how many
"coloreds" and Jews can you unjustly hang on the Marietta square
before it gets old...

Actually, the early migrant Yankees brought a lot of good stuff to the
city. Education, money, class. Not so much these days, however.

Thanks for the input! If I get around to constructing an exchanger
I'll shoot you a line and photo.


Greg G.

Morris Dovey said:

>Greg G. wrote:
>
>> ... (many builders still can't or don't care about insulating
>> properly - regardless of laws which are in place), millions of older
>> (and new) homes which are not effectively insulated, building designs
>> which make it difficult to achieve optimal R factors.
>
>Methinks this is because home buyers are unaware of what's possible and
>lack the basis for good decision-making. Good designs and good
>insulation needn't be costly - and are certainly less costly in the long
>run. Recalling the truism that Perfect is often the enemy of Good,
>Optimal would be nice, but people need to know enough to insist on Good.


Didn't mean to imply "perfect" when using the word optimal. But when
observing the fashion in which many of the houses were built in this
area, mediocre would be a vast improvement. The now collapsed building
boom in the Atlanta area resulted in various carpetbagger profiteers
throwing up some horrible construction with little to no supervision
of their untrained "imported" laborers. We have no unions (short of a
few electricians) and the inspectors are bought off in the planning
stages of the latest "Gated McMansion Communities." It's not all bad,
just much of it. I expect many of the quadraplex condos built will
fall apart within 15 years, assuming the ground doesn't give way
underneath due to the horrific slopes they built upon yet poorly
re-enforced.


>> Agreed. The entire construction industry and its supporting
>> infrastructure of material suppliers and architects is geared towards
>> producing the same old stuff. Makes it far more expensive to
>> construct anything unconventional. Even the CAD programs I have are
>> almost exclusively geared towards producing homes with walls and roofs
>> containing ~20% thermal bridges in the walls and even more losses in
>> the wall/ceiling junctions. None have facilities to compute energy
>> losses or gains from site location or solar, nor do they consider
>> solar storage facilities, collectors, PVs, or much of anything else
>> outside the mainstream. It's all about the facade.
>
>It would seem so. After the fact, I did the thermal storage calculations
>for that farm shop building. It turned out that the 6" slab floor (6" so
>that the owner could bring heavy equipment inside) when warmed to
>whatever room temperature (any temperature you care to choose that might
>reasonably fit that usage) contains enough heat to raise the temperature
>of the air in the building (with 10' ceilings) from /absolute/ /zero/ to
>that same temperature _73_ times! I posted source code for that
>calculation to alt.solar.thermal on 2/21/2009 with the subject "Re:
>Physics help please - heat storage (summary)". It's fairly well
>commented - and I put it squarely into the public domain. Please feel
>welcome to use and share it.


I grabbed it and will probably throw together a tiny program that
allows entering the variables and what ifing without recompiling the
program. You are welcome to it, and will credit your efforts.

You should grab a copy of MathCAD, Mathmatica or Maple.
You'd love the graphs and charts...

I also perused your web entire site hoping to see some of the internal
details of your panels. Alas, I understand about the lack of positive
feedback, Thank You's, and generally unappreciative nature of the
Internet. Since 1998 I have received exactly 6 responses on my
personal site, and several of those were bitching that a device driver
wouldn't work with their non-approved hardware.
Cripes - we've become a greedy, expectant lot.

I'm curious, what are you using for the heat exchanger?
Is the glazing polycarbonate or glass?
Do you bother to insulate the framing of the units?


>> I'm sure the owner was excited! But again, more prone to be
>> successful is some areas than others. Clouds, rain, trees, site
>> location and orientation, and winds all effect the ultimate success of
>> such a venture.
>
>He was so excited he shook. Robatoy installed a panel up in Kanuckistan,
>and posted here (Dec 2008 - subject was "Solar heat for the shop. ^5's
>Morris!") when he installed it.


Hey, I'd be so excited about removing another hole from my wallet I
might need a rag to clean up. ;-)


>In general, if there's enough sunlight that you can comfortably read a
>newspaper, then there's enough energy available to provide a useful
>amount of heat.


I have no data with which to form an opinion, and haven't actually
built anything due to my location but that is good to know. I may
throw something together after looking over your site.

Unfortunately, I live in a topographical depression surrounded by
trees and get little sunlight at the south end of the house, even in
winter, due to the quantity of pine trees. Roses won't even grow along
the south wall. The west side receives far more, but that not an
optimal place for a collector in the south unless it is shuttered.


>> I've had my fill of the urban cacophony of train whistles,
>> helicopters, planes, domestic disturbances, gunshots and sirens.
>
>I'm not particularly fond of the noise either, but I've still enjoyed
>the times when I've lived in cities. It's strange, now that I think
>about it, but the cities I enjoyed the most were some of the noisiest.
>Go figure. :)


I like the restaurants and creative community, but the crime, traffic
problems, and strangely lacking economies of scale make large cities
undesirable for me. Atlanta was a far better place when it had less
than a million people and considerably fewer carpetbagger politicians.


>> Nothing good is ever easy. Yet being a leader isn't always profitable.
>> It takes time for the sheep to adapt, and you're as likely to be
>> branded a pariah as a profit for pushing energy efficiency. I get a
>> LOT of pushback in the moronic south over such topics.
>
>Hmm - you probably didn't realize that you were talking with a Georgia
>boy... ;-)


Actually, I didn't. I was born in downtown Atlanta and lived in GA
until 30. I left after being endlessly harassed by a bunch of crooked
right-wing politicians, an idiot Nixon era assistant US District
attorney and his sycophant friends. Even your past employer, IBM,
figures into that long, demented story as well. I still get flack
over it 22 years later. If I call an attorney in the state of Georgia
they either hang up or transfer me to voice mail when I mention my
name. The last democratic governor of the state, who is also a lawyer
of sorts, won't talk to me and I worked on his TV as a kid. I am left
to conclude that they are an arrogant, collusive, self-serving lot of
cretins.

>Of course - some of my best friends are attorneys. :-]

Apparently some of my biggest enemies are as well. ;-)
Which is curious, because I used to hang out with some pretty wealthy
people in N. Atlanta before I crossed paths with this particular
bunch. Oh, well.



Greg G.