Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
Alan
"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
(snip)
> That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
> be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
> the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
> on those who don't feel the need.
>
> On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
> exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
> safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.
Hi Joe -
I hope none of them ever fire...
I do use our shop saws here too.... and I don't think having a saw stop will
make people more sloppy... just like with air bags in the car... who wants
to *really* find out how well they work?
Cheers -
Rob
Joe Bemier wrote:
> USA Today likes to print fancy looking charts and graphs
> to go with a particular story. However, try to find the confidence
> interval or standard deviation to go with the data. The charts are
> nice, but unless we can see how the data was prepared and the
> variable, it means very little.
Not only that-- the way they scale their charts is almost always
extremely misleading. Say, for example, they've got some stat that's
gone from 1012 up to 1097 over some period of time. That's under 8.5%,
not very impressive really. So they start the Y axis of the damned
chart at 1000 instead of zero and end at 1100. Now the number goes from
near the bottom to near the top, and it looks like whatever they're
reporting has octupled. It drives me crazy.
Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
>>table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)
> Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
> regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
> "we"?
Rob runs Lee Valley Tools.
Chris
Leon wrote:
> I have only heard of 1 complaint/problem with the SawStop having a false
> positive. SawStop corrected the problem and IIRC the person having the
> problem was reported to have later had a positive trigger that saved him
> from injury. Do a DAGS to locate the post in this group.
> Other than that I have only heard and read praise about the machine from
> ACTUAL users.
I think the machine itself is great. The saw appears well-made,
operates smoothly, generally a nice piece of equipment. The stopping
mechanism is impressive to watch (saw it at a wood show).
At the moment it's too expensive for me as a home user (half again as
much as a made-in-Canada General?), and I think the political
machinations are despicable.
Chris
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:33:52 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:57:38 GMT, "Leon"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>I was always careful and lost half of my thumb to my
>>>old Craftsman saw. As careful as I am I still had the accident after
>>>finishing the cut and after turning the saw off.
>>
>> Not trying to start an arguement here, but how would a SawStop have
>> helped you in the circumstances you describe? Or maybe you weren't
>> trying to make SS' case with your accident. It wasn't clear to me
>> which (nor was it in all the stuff I snipped).
>
>
>:~) If the blade is still spinning after the saw is turned off the blade
>can still get you.
My misinterpretation. I equated "saw off" with saw not running, i.e.
blade not spinning.
The only breaking of skin I've ever had on a floor power tool was on a
bandsaw that wasn't running. I was spinning the wheels by hand after
putting on a new blade to get it tracking properly. Somehow, I got a
finger too close to the blade down near the cutting area and caught a
tooth just as the blade came to a stop.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
John Emmons wrote:
SNIP
> Is there anything that can't be blamed on illegal immigration? I mean the
> illegal folks didn't elect the criminal inhabiting the white house
No, the "former" Cubans did (see election results - Florida)!
If you think Isreal's lobbying capacity and influence is pretty
powerful - check out the Anti-Castro Cuban American influence.
Wonder what they'll obsess on when Castro dies?
charlie b
My first "hard liquor" drink was a Cuba Libre - in Panama. At least
"la revolucion" had one positive affect.
Frank Boettcher (in [email protected]) said:
| Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
| regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who
| is "we"?
Rob is the President of Lee Valley Tools Ltd, and generally lurks more
than he posts.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
Dave Bugg (in [email protected]) said:
| John Emmons wrote:
|
|| It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration
|| came along to blame for all of society's woes...
|
| This isn't stuff made up to simply blame illegal immigrants, it is
| an unfortunate reality. In our health district alone, it was
| becoming an almost an overwhelming chase to try to track down the
| families of illegals to try and get the kids immunized and to get
| TB testing done. In LA County there were over 180 deaths last year
| due to measles; these outbreaks were primarily among the
| unimmunized kids of illegals.
This isn't exactly a new scenario. I think I recall reading that
immigrants brought the first cases of smallpox, cholera, and several
varieties of VD to the Americas - leading to hundreds of thousands of
deaths and the demise of at least one major culture.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
>>was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
>>sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
>>
>>They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
>>years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
>>The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
>>
>>Alan
>
>
> Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
> to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
> information so that others may check for themselves.
>
> Frank
Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)
I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least one
will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the fine
for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.
I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...
I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...
Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to have
an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so we
make our decisions accordingly.
Cheers -
Rob Lee
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 04:45:13 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I watch the blade come to a complete stop before approaching now.
>
I was taught in 7th grade IA to watch all blades or bits stop, and to
especially never leave a machine until the blade has fully stopped.
The practice, as well as other safety practices drilled into me by
"Mr. Messer", have served me well for 30 years.
That said, if I owned a saw that others used, in a multi-person pro
shop or _especially_ a school or ww'ing club environment, I'd buy a
SawStop today.
I can see a personal injury lawyer making an argument of "The safety
technology is readily available at a reasonable price."
What I think of that statement is meaningless compared to what a
personal injury jury unfamiliar with woodworking might.
"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I think the machine itself is great. The saw appears well-made, operates
> smoothly, generally a nice piece of equipment. The stopping mechanism is
> impressive to watch (saw it at a wood show).
>
Well perhaps in the future as the contractor versions come out or as other
manufacturers follow Powermatic in starting to add more safety features the
saw will come down in price.
> At the moment it's too expensive for me as a home user (half again as much
> as a made-in-Canada General?), and I think the political machinations are
> despicable.
>
> Chris
>
IMHO until you actually loose a digit you may never agree with how it is
brought to market. I was always careful and lost half of my thumb to my
old Craftsman saw. As careful as I am I still had the accident after
finishing the cut and after turning the saw off. My position is that in
this particular case I think every one would benefit from this device
because proper technique does not guarantee freedom from injury. Say a
child sneaks into your shop and turns the saw on and the unthinkable
happens. There are millions of possibilities.
I am kind of like a parent that becomes involved in the prevention of a
disease after he looses a child to that disease. You really don't see the
big picture until it is too late. The government got involved and required
kids to be immunized before starting school and as a result many child hood
diseases were almost wiped out. Unfortunately the government does not
enforce this as strictly it has in the past and some of those diseases are
on the rise. I am sure there are still some parents that wish the
government had not gotten involved in immunizations also. Whether your
view is pro or con IMHO this is one of the situations where government
involvement would better serve the general public than many other situations
it is involved in.
I don't want the government involved any more than the next person but in
this situation I can find it easier to swallow that pill.
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:35:28 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>> That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
>> be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
>> the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
>> on those who don't feel the need.
>
>That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.
For whatever reason, Leon - the point is he won't be buying one.
>
>
>> On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
>> exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
>> safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.
>
>Operators should not become more sloppy just as gun owners did not become
>more sloppy when the safety was added. A blade spinning at 100 mph and the
>fact that a blade that is not spinning will still cut you should be enough
>of a deterrent.
>
You are citing logic (and I agree with you) but, I'm interested to
know the reality. There are many *should nots* in this world but we
can never depend on that. Here's one- People *should not* operate a
motor vehicle while intoxicated.
In the first place I ever worked where I used a table saw, the rule was that
the first thing that you did after turning off the saw was to crank the
blade down below the table. I still do that now. On the few occasions that
that is not practical, being in the habit of cranking it down forces you to
think about that blade being exposed.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> :~) If the blade is still spinning after the saw is turned off the blade
> can still get you. Now that is pretty obvious but falls into one of the
> millions of ways an accident can happen when you are not cutting wood.
When
> not cutting wood the average person is probably not as attentive as he
> should be, I was not. The SawStop would prevent this because it still
> works if the blade is turning after being turned off. I verified this
> feature soon after the SawStop was introduced.
>
>
>
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:15:40 -0400, "Rob Lee" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
>>>>>was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
>>>>>sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
>>>>>
>>>>>They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
>>>>>years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
>>>>>The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
>>>>>
>>>>>Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
>>>> to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
>>>> information so that others may check for themselves.
>>>>
>>>> Frank
>>>
>>>Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
>>>table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)
>>>
>>>I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least
>>>one
>>>will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the
>>>fine
>>>for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
>>>does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.
>>>
>>>I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...
>>>
>>>I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...
>>>
>>>Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
>>>decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to
>>>have
>>>an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so
>>>we
>>>make our decisions accordingly.
>>>
>>>Cheers -
>>>
>>>Rob Lee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
>> regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
>> "we"?
>>
>> Frank
>
>Hi Frank -
>
>I'm just a guy who doesn't like staff with with stitches.... :)
>
>(As noted - Lee Valley Tools.)
>
>We have 13 stores - each with a woodshop (for staff to use, and for building
>displays, giving seminars etc...). Our manufacturing and R&D shops also have
>saws... Should also note that we've stopped using dado sets too... nothing
>wrong with them, there are just safer ways to achieve the same thing in our
>environment (many users, multiple skill levels).
>
>I personally have an Inca with a sliding table (and riving knife) - so won't
>be buying a Sawstop.
>
>Cheers -
>
>Rob
>
>
>
Rob,
Thanks for responding. It's good to have a substantiated claim by
someone who has made the decision to move in that direction, and I
hope you were not offended by my lack of recognition.
SawStop has been somewhat controversial and I've detected some trolls
in the past when this subject comes up. I suspect that if, the
quantity of table saw injuries that have sometimes been put on this
board without substantiation were true, someone from my organization
would have be in deposition twenty-four hours a day.
The controversy, in my opinion, is not in the area of advancing the
technology which is a good thing, but in getting the UL/CSA standards
boards or the goverment to mandate the technology and force it on
every manufacturer. I'm not in favor of that.
Based on the crowd they drew at IWF this year and years past, they
should be able to promote the technology without the mandate.
Frank
"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
> regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
> "we"?
Robin is president of Lee Valley Tools who I believe are the largest hand
tools retailer in Canada. Request a catalogue online and I expect you'll
become a customer.
http://www.leevalley.com/
"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
>>>>was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
>>>>sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
>>>>
>>>>They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
>>>>years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
>>>>The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
>>>>
>>>>Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
>>> to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
>>> information so that others may check for themselves.
>>>
>>> Frank
>>
>>Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
>>table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)
>>
>>I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least
>>one
>>will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the
>>fine
>>for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
>>does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.
>>
>>I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...
>>
>>I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...
>>
>>Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
>>decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to
>>have
>>an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so
>>we
>>make our decisions accordingly.
>>
>>Cheers -
>>
>>Rob Lee
>>
>>
>>
> Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
> regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
> "we"?
>
> Frank
Hi Frank -
I'm just a guy who doesn't like staff with with stitches.... :)
(As noted - Lee Valley Tools.)
We have 13 stores - each with a woodshop (for staff to use, and for building
displays, giving seminars etc...). Our manufacturing and R&D shops also have
saws... Should also note that we've stopped using dado sets too... nothing
wrong with them, there are just safer ways to achieve the same thing in our
environment (many users, multiple skill levels).
I personally have an Inca with a sliding table (and riving knife) - so won't
be buying a Sawstop.
Cheers -
Rob
<clipped>
| In a Political Science class I once had it was
pointed out that
| year after year there is a proven direct correlation
between the
| consumption of ice cream and the incidence of rape.
Look at any | year and you will see that starting in
January as the total
| amount of ice cream per week or month increases, so
do the
| number of reported rapes. Some might be tempted to
proclaim | that this is proof that the consumption of
ice cream causes rape | and decide that we should
outlaw ice cream. I suppose others
| might conclude that rapists must consume vast
quantities of ice | cream after doing their crime and
thus police should stake out
| Ben & Jerrys to look for rapists.
|
|
| Others might be tempted to note that both ice cream
| consumption and rape tend to increase and decrease as
outside
| temperatures vary.
|
| I believe Mark Twain noted that there are three kinds
of
| lies...lies, damned lies and statistics.
|
| Dave hall
Reminds me of the book "How To Lie With Statistics" by
Darrell Huff. It covers a multitude of ways to mislead
(lie) people. It's probably time to blow the dust off
it and re-read, refresh and re-arm myself.
John Flatley
--
My generation never got a break. When I was young they
taught me to respect my elders. Now that I am older,
they tell me to listen to the youth of the country.
Leon wrote:
> ...... The government got
> involved and required kids to be immunized before starting school and
> as a result many child hood diseases were almost wiped out. Unfortunately
> the government does not enforce this as strictly it has
> in the past and some of those diseases are on the rise.
Sorry Leon, but that is not correct. Having been employed with public health
for 17+ years, I can assure you the enforcements are even stricter than
before. However, your observation that there has been a rise in the
incidents of childhood infectious disease is correct. If you look at the
demographic breakdown, you'll see that the rise is occuring due to illegal
migrants. The mexican, central and south american countries do not have the
same level of immunization laws and required compliance as America.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:57:38 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I was always careful and lost half of my thumb to my
>>old Craftsman saw. As careful as I am I still had the accident after
>>finishing the cut and after turning the saw off.
>
> Not trying to start an arguement here, but how would a SawStop have
> helped you in the circumstances you describe? Or maybe you weren't
> trying to make SS' case with your accident. It wasn't clear to me
> which (nor was it in all the stuff I snipped).
:~) If the blade is still spinning after the saw is turned off the blade
can still get you. Now that is pretty obvious but falls into one of the
millions of ways an accident can happen when you are not cutting wood. When
not cutting wood the average person is probably not as attentive as he
should be, I was not. The SawStop would prevent this because it still
works if the blade is turning after being turned off. I verified this
feature soon after the SawStop was introduced.
John Emmons wrote:
> It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration came along
> to blame for all of society's woes...
>
> Is there anything that can't be blamed on illegal immigration? I mean the
> illegal folks didn't elect the criminal inhabiting the white house or invade
> Iraq did they?
>
>
And who knows, maybe the illegals actually understand the meaning of the
word "criminal." From what is written above, it is obvious that you do not.
Glen
(who is amazed at how supposedly educated individuals throw loaded words
about with no regard to accuracy or truth)
"arw01" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
> was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
> sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
I have heard of this happening several times from posters in the group.
LeeValley has gone this route and I would not be suprised if WoodCraft
follows that trend now that they actually sell the SawStop.
>
> They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
> years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
> The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
I have only heard of 1 complaint/problem with the SawStop having a false
positive. SawStop corrected the problem and IIRC the person having the
problem was reported to have later had a positive trigger that saved him
from injury. Do a DAGS to locate the post in this group.
Other than that I have only heard and read praise about the machine from
ACTUAL users.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "B A R R Y" wrote in message
>
>> I can see a personal injury lawyer making an argument of "The safety
>> technology is readily available at a reasonable price."
>>
>> What I think of that statement is meaningless compared to what a
>> personal injury jury unfamiliar with woodworking might.
>
> Notice that within _hours_ of e. coli being found in the bagged spinach,
> the
> scumbags were advertising "bagged spinach e. coli lawsuits" on Goggle.
Also known as "Flies", always around and never wanted.
No need to go to Iraq to invade a country. All they have to do is walk
across the border and invade this one.
todd
"John Emmons" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration came
> along
> to blame for all of society's woes...
>
> Is there anything that can't be blamed on illegal immigration? I mean the
> illegal folks didn't elect the criminal inhabiting the white house or
> invade
> Iraq did they?
>
>
> John E.
>
>
> "Dave Bugg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>> > The rise in illegal migrants was what I was getting at. Sorry for the
>> > choice of words in that respect.
>>
>> Ah, I understand now. :-)
>>
>> --
>> Dave
>> www.davebbq.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:35:28 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
>>> be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
>>> the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
>>> on those who don't feel the need.
>>
>>That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.
>
> For whatever reason, Leon - the point is he won't be buying one.
Exactly. You wanted to attach an opinion,
Further reinforcing the opinion that the technology is good in some
applications, but should not be forced
on those who don't feel the need.
So did I.
>>
>>> On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
>>> exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
>>> safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.
>>
>>Operators should not become more sloppy just as gun owners did not become
>>more sloppy when the safety was added. A blade spinning at 100 mph and
>>the
>>fact that a blade that is not spinning will still cut you should be enough
>>of a deterrent.
>>
> You are citing logic (and I agree with you) but, I'm interested to
> know the reality. There are many *should nots* in this world but we
> can never depend on that. Here's one- People *should not* operate a
> motor vehicle while intoxicated.
Well, I see the point you are trying to make, I think, however should we not
try to improve because we know that we cannot protect against every senerio?
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> It is easy to release the tension of the sphincter muscle as soon as the
> power is off. I've found myself reaching into the bandsaw a couple of
> times.
Precicely, many safety steps become routine and when we are focused on the
job at hand the time it takes for a tool to come to a "complete" stop may
be perceived as shorther than it actually takes.
My cut was rather violent. Have you noticed how smooth a blade cuts through
wood? Yes, my saw blade should have cut through my thumb with ease and
smoothness also. Because the blade had "almost" come to a stop the cut was
not smooth at all. I still recall the violent vibration through my thumb as
the teeth ground through bone. That violent vibration was the primary
reason that I thought for several months that I had had a kick back.
Retuning to the shop from the ER I found all my wood neatly and safely
stacked with no blood.
> Discussions of accidents come up here from time to time and they serve as
> a reminder not to become too complacent with our tools. Easy to do. Very
> easy.
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Not trying to start an arguement here, but how would a SawStop have
> helped you in the circumstances you describe? Or maybe you weren't
> trying to make SS' case with your accident. It wasn't clear to me
> which (nor was it in all the stuff I snipped).
I believe the Sawstop system stays active until the blade stops spinning.
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:49:42 -0500, Don Fearn <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
>>a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
>>a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
>>you are around construction sites very much..
>
>The SawStop doesn't have anything to do with either of those
>situations, does it? Duh.
I was just wondering how many "accidents" in the statistic they used
are also irrelevant.
"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
(snip)
> Thanks for responding. It's good to have a substantiated claim by
> someone who has made the decision to move in that direction, and I
> hope you were not offended by my lack of recognition.
>
> SawStop has been somewhat controversial and I've detected some trolls
> in the past when this subject comes up. I suspect that if, the
> quantity of table saw injuries that have sometimes been put on this
> board without substantiation were true, someone from my organization
> would have be in deposition twenty-four hours a day.
>
> The controversy, in my opinion, is not in the area of advancing the
> technology which is a good thing, but in getting the UL/CSA standards
> boards or the goverment to mandate the technology and force it on
> every manufacturer. I'm not in favor of that.
>
> Based on the crowd they drew at IWF this year and years past, they
> should be able to promote the technology without the mandate.
>
> Frank
Hi Frank -
No worries...
I really like the saw, and the features.... I, too, don't really like the
legislative approach...and hope it's not successful. If the technology was
public domain, it'd be a different story...
Cheers -
Rob
"Dave Bugg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
>> ...... The government got
>> involved and required kids to be immunized before starting school and
>> as a result many child hood diseases were almost wiped out.
>> Unfortunately the government does not enforce this as strictly it has
>> in the past and some of those diseases are on the rise.
>
> Sorry Leon, but that is not correct. Having been employed with public
> health for 17+ years, I can assure you the enforcements are even stricter
> than before. However, your observation that there has been a rise in the
> incidents of childhood infectious disease is correct. If you look at the
> demographic breakdown, you'll see that the rise is occuring due to illegal
> migrants. The mexican, central and south american countries do not have
> the same level of immunization laws and required compliance as America.
The rise in illegal migrants was what I was getting at. Sorry for the
choice of words in that respect.
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 20:24:27 -0500, Frank Boettcher
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
>>was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
>>sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
>>
>>They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
>>years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
>>The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
>>
>>Alan
>
>
>Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
>to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
>information so that others may check for themselves.
>
>Frank
Yeah, good point. Especially the second paragraph sounds more like an
advertisement to me.
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 06:32:19 -0400, Joe Bemier
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>I was just wondering how many "accidents" in the statistic they used
>>are also irrelevant.
>
>
>For sure it is a valid question.
>Statistics are very easily portrayed as one wishes.
>For example -
>The death rate among persons over 63 who quit smoking is higher than
>those who continue to smoke. This is a true and valid statistic.
>Thus, statistics can be very misleading. Most of the statistics we see
>in our daily lives are worthless because we don't have associated
>information. USA Today likes to print fancy looking charts and graphs
>to go with a particular story. However, try to find the confidence
>interval or standard deviation to go with the data. The charts are
>nice, but unless we can see how the data was prepared and the
>variable, it means very little.
>
Very true that is why I asked. I used to crunch numbers and I would
always ask what they wanted the chart to look like. You can take
exactly the same dataset and make the answer pretty much whatever you
want, simply by adjusting the terms of the view.
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
> I can see a personal injury lawyer making an argument of "The safety
> technology is readily available at a reasonable price."
>
> What I think of that statement is meaningless compared to what a
> personal injury jury unfamiliar with woodworking might.
Notice that within _hours_ of e. coli being found in the bagged spinach, the
scumbags were advertising "bagged spinach e. coli lawsuits" on Goggle.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/06
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>> That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
>> be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
>> the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
>> on those who don't feel the need.
>
>That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.
Maybe, although your argument is less than compelling. (I don't think
I would be trading down from my Ryobi, just because I would be giving
up a sliding table<VBG>.)
>
>
>> On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
>> exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
>> safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.
>
>Operators should not become more sloppy just as gun owners did not become
>more sloppy when the safety was added. A blade spinning at 100 mph and the
>fact that a blade that is not spinning will still cut you should be enough
>of a deterrent.
I agree it shouldn't. But it would be nice to see data to support or
refute that (not that LV's experience, even over many years, would be
statistically significant).
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
John Emmons wrote:
> It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration
> came along to blame for all of society's woes...
This isn't stuff made up to simply blame illegal immigrants, it is an
unfortunate reality. In our health district alone, it was becoming an almost
an overwhelming chase to try to track down the families of illegals to try
and get the kids immunized and to get TB testing done. In LA County there
were over 180 deaths last year due to measles; these outbreaks were
primarily among the unimmunized kids of illegals.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com
"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
> That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
> be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
> the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
> on those who don't feel the need.
That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.
> On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
> exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
> safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.
Operators should not become more sloppy just as gun owners did not become
more sloppy when the safety was added. A blade spinning at 100 mph and the
fact that a blade that is not spinning will still cut you should be enough
of a deterrent.
It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration came along
to blame for all of society's woes...
Is there anything that can't be blamed on illegal immigration? I mean the
illegal folks didn't elect the criminal inhabiting the white house or invade
Iraq did they?
John E.
"Dave Bugg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
> > The rise in illegal migrants was what I was getting at. Sorry for the
> > choice of words in that respect.
>
> Ah, I understand now. :-)
>
> --
> Dave
> www.davebbq.com
>
>
>
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
>>>was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
>>>sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
>>>
>>>They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
>>>years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
>>>The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
>>>
>>>Alan
>>
>>
>> Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
>> to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
>> information so that others may check for themselves.
>>
>> Frank
>
>Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
>table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)
>
>I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least one
>will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the fine
>for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
>does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.
>
>I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...
>
>I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...
>
>Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
>decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to have
>an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so we
>make our decisions accordingly.
>
>Cheers -
>
>Rob Lee
>
>
>
Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
"we"?
Frank
[email protected] wrote:
>
> In a shop where they are using uiniform materials in a repetitive
> process that makes sense.
> What happens the first time Harry Homeowner decides to chop up some
> plastic or EEEK, aluminum?
>
> Some of us do other thinghs beside fine cabinetry.
>
> It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
> a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
> a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
> you are around construction sites very much..
>
The SawStop would cut plastic just fine. I don't know about aluminum
but it will cut embedded nails and staples without triggering the stop
action. Since the SawStop is cabinet saw (a very good one from the
reviews), I don't see the point of the construction comments.
I know of woodworkers who have lost fingers to table saws because of a
moments distraction. The SawStop would have prevented those accidents.
And no, I don't work for SawStop or sell them. I'm one of those Harry
Homeowners.
Jess.S
On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
>was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
>sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
>
>They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
>years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
>The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
>
>Alan
Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
information so that others may check for themselves.
Frank
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:33:52 GMT, "Leon"
>
> My misinterpretation. I equated "saw off" with saw not running, i.e.
> blade not spinning.
>
> The only breaking of skin I've ever had on a floor power tool was on a
> bandsaw that wasn't running. I was spinning the wheels by hand after
> putting on a new blade to get it tracking properly. Somehow, I got a
> finger too close to the blade down near the cutting area and caught a
> tooth just as the blade came to a stop.
>
Ouch.
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 00:00:47 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:49:42 -0500, Don Fearn <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>>It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
>>>a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
>>>a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
>>>you are around construction sites very much..
>>
>>The SawStop doesn't have anything to do with either of those
>>situations, does it? Duh.
>
>I was just wondering how many "accidents" in the statistic they used
>are also irrelevant.
For sure it is a valid question.
Statistics are very easily portrayed as one wishes.
For example -
The death rate among persons over 63 who quit smoking is higher than
those who continue to smoke. This is a true and valid statistic.
Thus, statistics can be very misleading. Most of the statistics we see
in our daily lives are worthless because we don't have associated
information. USA Today likes to print fancy looking charts and graphs
to go with a particular story. However, try to find the confidence
interval or standard deviation to go with the data. The charts are
nice, but unless we can see how the data was prepared and the
variable, it means very little.
I think it was [email protected] who stated:
>What happens the first time Harry Homeowner decides to chop up some
>plastic or EEEK, aluminum?
Uhhh . . . I suppose Harry puts the saw in "Bypass Mode" to
temporarily disable the brake and does his aluminum cutting, perhaps?
I don't think plastic cutting is an issue (I read the owner's manual
on the SawStop Web site). What is "EEEK"?
>It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
>a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
>a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
>you are around construction sites very much..
The SawStop doesn't have anything to do with either of those
situations, does it? Duh.
--
"What do *you* care what other people think?" --Arline Feynman
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
>>> be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
>>> the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
>>> on those who don't feel the need.
>>
>>That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.
>
> Maybe, although your argument is less than compelling. (I don't think
> I would be trading down from my Ryobi, just because I would be giving
> up a sliding table<VBG>.)
LOL, yeah, I forgot to include the brand saw he is using also.
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 06:32:19 -0400, Joe Bemier
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 00:00:47 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:49:42 -0500, Don Fearn <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
>>>>a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
>>>>a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
>>>>you are around construction sites very much..
>>>
>>>The SawStop doesn't have anything to do with either of those
>>>situations, does it? Duh.
>>
>>I was just wondering how many "accidents" in the statistic they used
>>are also irrelevant.
>
>
>For sure it is a valid question.
>Statistics are very easily portrayed as one wishes.
>For example -
>The death rate among persons over 63 who quit smoking is higher than
>those who continue to smoke. This is a true and valid statistic.
>Thus, statistics can be very misleading. Most of the statistics we see
>in our daily lives are worthless because we don't have associated
>information. USA Today likes to print fancy looking charts and graphs
>to go with a particular story. However, try to find the confidence
>interval or standard deviation to go with the data. The charts are
>nice, but unless we can see how the data was prepared and the
>variable, it means very little.
>
In a Political Science class I once had it was pointed out that year
after year there is a proven direct correlation between the
consumption of ice cream and the incidence of rape. Look at any year
and you will see that starting in January as the total amount of ice
cream per week or month increases, so do the number of reported rapes.
Some might be tempted to proclaim that this is proof that the
consumption of ice cream causes rape and decide that we should outlaw
ice cream. I suppose others might conclude that rapists must consume
vast quantities of ice cream after doing their crime and thus police
should stake out Ben & Jerrys to look for rapists.
Others might be tempted to note that both ice cream consumption and
rape tend to increase and decrease as outside temperatures vary.
I believe Mark Twain noted that there are three kinds of lies...lies,
damned lies and statistics.
Dave hall
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>
> I was taught in 7th grade IA to watch all blades or bits stop, and to
> especially never leave a machine until the blade has fully stopped.
> The practice, as well as other safety practices drilled into me by
> "Mr. Messer", have served me well for 30 years.
I do not remember the specifiv details of what happened but I also was
taught to watch for the blade to stop and to be aware that under floresent
lighting the some tools may appear to be stopped under the right lighting
conditions. Apparently a lapse of good judgement or thought that the blade
had stopped as I had begun the adjusting the fence, I guess I was "only
human" after all. For several months I thought that I'd had a kick back.
>
> That said, if I owned a saw that others used, in a multi-person pro
> shop or _especially_ a school or ww'ing club environment, I'd buy a
> SawStop today.
>
> I can see a personal injury lawyer making an argument of "The safety
> technology is readily available at a reasonable price."
I can see that plus I can see it actually preventing injuries, which would
be the most important reason to buy the saw.
>
> What I think of that statement is meaningless compared to what a
> personal injury jury unfamiliar with woodworking might.
Yeah, I suspect the vast majority of people will believe that the SawStop
should be in placed in a multi user setting. Given that thought, it may
actually be a good thing if the government mandates this type of safety
device, to protect the employer from such claims.
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:57:38 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I was always careful and lost half of my thumb to my
>old Craftsman saw. As careful as I am I still had the accident after
>finishing the cut and after turning the saw off.
Not trying to start an arguement here, but how would a SawStop have
helped you in the circumstances you describe? Or maybe you weren't
trying to make SS' case with your accident. It wasn't clear to me
which (nor was it in all the stuff I snipped).
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:06:10 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"B A R R Y" wrote in message
>
>> I can see a personal injury lawyer making an argument of "The safety
>> technology is readily available at a reasonable price."
>>
>> What I think of that statement is meaningless compared to what a
>> personal injury jury unfamiliar with woodworking might.
>
>Notice that within _hours_ of e. coli being found in the bagged spinach, the
>scumbags were advertising "bagged spinach e. coli lawsuits" on Goggle.
Yeah, so disgusting!
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In the first place I ever worked where I used a table saw, the rule was
> that
> the first thing that you did after turning off the saw was to crank the
> blade down below the table. I still do that now. On the few occasions that
> that is not practical, being in the habit of cranking it down forces you
> to
> think about that blade being exposed.
I watch the blade come to a complete stop before approaching now.
On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
>was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
>sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
>
>They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
>years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
>The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
>
>Alan
In a shop where they are using uiniform materials in a repetitive
process that makes sense.
What happens the first time Harry Homeowner decides to chop up some
plastic or EEEK, aluminum?
Some of us do other thinghs beside fine cabinetry.
It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
you are around construction sites very much..
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:15:40 -0400, "Rob Lee" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
>>>>>was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
>>>>>sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.
>>>>>
>>>>>They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
>>>>>years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
>>>>>The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.
>>>>>
>>>>>Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
>>>> to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
>>>> information so that others may check for themselves.
>>>>
>>>> Frank
>>>
>>>Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
>>>table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)
>>>
>>>I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least
>>>one
>>>will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the
>>>fine
>>>for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
>>>does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.
>>>
>>>I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...
>>>
>>>I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...
>>>
>>>Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
>>>decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to
>>>have
>>>an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so
>>>we
>>>make our decisions accordingly.
>>>
>>>Cheers -
>>>
>>>Rob Lee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
>> regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
>> "we"?
>>
>> Frank
>
>Hi Frank -
>
>I'm just a guy who doesn't like staff with with stitches.... :)
>
>(As noted - Lee Valley Tools.)
>
>We have 13 stores - each with a woodshop (for staff to use, and for building
>displays, giving seminars etc...). Our manufacturing and R&D shops also have
>saws... Should also note that we've stopped using dado sets too... nothing
>wrong with them, there are just safer ways to achieve the same thing in our
>environment (many users, multiple skill levels).
>
>I personally have an Inca with a sliding table (and riving knife) - so won't
>be buying a Sawstop.
>
>Cheers -
>
>Rob
>
>
>
That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
on those who don't feel the need.
On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.
"John Emmons" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration came
> along
> to blame for all of society's woes...
We didn't complain as much because we didn't pay as much in taxes to support
so many other people, illegal or not. Nor did we educate people in 20
different languages. Or try to.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I do not remember the specific details of what happened but I also was
> taught to watch for the blade to stop and to be aware that under floresent
> lighting the some tools may appear to be stopped under the right lighting
> conditions. Apparently a lapse of good judgement or thought that the
> blade had stopped as I had begun the adjusting the fence, I guess I was
> "only human" after all. For several months I thought that I'd had a kick
> back.
It is easy to release the tension of the sphincter muscle as soon as the
power is off. I've found myself reaching into the bandsaw a couple of
times.
Discussions of accidents come up here from time to time and they serve as a
reminder not to become too complacent with our tools. Easy to do. Very
easy.
Upscale wrote:
> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>Not trying to start an arguement here, but how would a SawStop have
>>helped you in the circumstances you describe? Or maybe you weren't
>>trying to make SS' case with your accident. It wasn't clear to me
>>which (nor was it in all the stuff I snipped).
>
>
> I believe the Sawstop system stays active until the blade stops spinning.
>
>
You are correct, it does.
Glen