I want to get some 4 x 12 beams for a pergola. I have four, IIRC, down in
Vegas, about 12 to 16 feet long, square on the ends. They are about ten to
twenty years old, and straight as day one.
Are they pine? Fir? What was used for external wood back then? If I was
to go buy some stuff today, what would I ask for? Really, I think I'll put
an ad on Craigslist for old wood, and just use stuff that is old that has
kept straight. Guides for identifying wood would be helpful.
It seems that this old wood is fairly dense (heavy). Just going to band saw
it on the ends, or carve it. I live in a dry climate with little rain, and
reasonably cold in the winter.
Steve
visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com
On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 07:41:40 -0700, "Steve B"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I want to get some 4 x 12 beams for a pergola. I have four, IIRC, down in
>Vegas, about 12 to 16 feet long, square on the ends. They are about ten to
>twenty years old, and straight as day one.
>
>Are they pine? Fir? What was used for external wood back then? If I was
>to go buy some stuff today, what would I ask for? Really, I think I'll put
>an ad on Craigslist for old wood, and just use stuff that is old that has
>kept straight. Guides for identifying wood would be helpful.
>
>It seems that this old wood is fairly dense (heavy). Just going to band saw
>it on the ends, or carve it. I live in a dry climate with little rain, and
>reasonably cold in the winter.
Prolly doug fir.
On Aug 8, 12:42=A0pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> I built a pergola a few years ago and used Western Red Cedar that I bough=
t from
> the local Ace Hardware lumber yard (don't know how many of _those_ are le=
ft in
> the world...). =A0Used 6x6 vertical posts, 2x12 beams (let-in to 2x10 in =
some
> places for decoration), 2x8 rafters on 24" centers over the beams, then t=
opped
> it off with 2x4 longitudinals on 12" centers for blocking the sun. =A0All
> horizontals overhang their supporting sections and have nice "ogee" patte=
rns
> cut into the ends. =A0Finished it with a liberal application of Behr prem=
ium
> 25-year weatherproofing wood "stain" (it's really paint, not stain), and =
there
> are no signs of warping, splitting, rotting, or deterioration anywhere. =
=A0I'll
> report back in 5 years. =A0:-)
Post a picture - I'd like to see it.
R
Wonder what the Beam wood association calls it.
One thing for the institute to call it that way in general terms -
but it is tougher than Fir and Pine in my backward.
If someone wants to define what is black and what is white and there
are no grades between - then so be it. Some don't. Engineers don't.
They have to have specs. Not an general classification.
No wonder we are going to LAM Beams now. The beam barn in one lumberyard
was monstrous. Horse and then track movers would pull in over 80' logs
to make beams. I used to drive my truck in on one side to load wood
stored on the side out of the rain.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
On 8/9/2010 5:21 PM, dpb wrote:
> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> ...
>
>> And by your definitions it is in the eye of the beholder - They build bridges
>> and multi-story buildings. Oh yea - pencils also like cedar.
>
> ...
>
> Well, there's a pretty significant beholder involved --
>
> For confirmation, you could look at the NIST-issued
> _American_Softwood_Lunber_Standard_ at the following url--
>
> <http://ts.nist.gov/standards/conformity/upload/ps20-05.pdf>
>
> p.42 includes the definition of softwood for commercial purposes as
>
> "softwood--one of the group of trees which have
> needle-like or scale-like leaves. The term has
> no specific reference to the softness of the
> wood."
>
> And, to complete the heartburn for the ignominy suffered by the magnificent
> redwoods, on p. 33 in
>
> APPENDIX A COMMERCIAL NAMES OF THE PRINCIPAL SOFTWOOD SPECIES
> ...
> Commercial Official Common Species or Species
>
> Group Names Tree Names Botanical Names
> ...
> REDWOOD:
> Redwood redwood Sequoia sempervirens
>
> ...
>
> The point is as noted before, in wood technology, construction, woodworking,
> etc., etc., etc., "softwoods" and "hardwoods" are generic labels for broad
> classifications that sorta' follow taxonomic rules but it is _not_ the same by
> any stretch nor intended to be. It's a convenience for commercial purposes.
>
> --
I usually watch for (and stores included) if it is outside stored wood,
don't use it inside. If it is inside stored wood then don't use it outside.
One of my uncles retired, as an old farmer, and finally got around to using
up some old wood in his drivin' shed, possibly over a hundred years old. He
was always a good work worker and produced some very nice projects, not
having much toime, being a busy farmer.
He was ripping an old piece of ash (can't remember exactlly how big but a
large old barn beam) he wanted to use in a project. When he got half way
down the length, the piece exploded end to end and he thought he was dead.
When he pulled himeslf to gether again, it seems one piece has a twist in it
almost 360 degrees from end to end and had been wating for all those years
to "let loose" from the rest of the beam.
All those years of drying didn't settle this piece of wood down.
"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I want to get some 4 x 12 beams for a pergola. I have four, IIRC, down in
Vegas, about 12 to 16 feet long, square on the ends. They are about ten to
twenty years old, and straight as day one.
Are they pine? Fir? What was used for external wood back then? If I was
to go buy some stuff today, what would I ask for? Really, I think I'll put
an ad on Craigslist for old wood, and just use stuff that is old that has
kept straight. Guides for identifying wood would be helpful.
It seems that this old wood is fairly dense (heavy). Just going to band saw
it on the ends, or carve it. I live in a dry climate with little rain, and
reasonably cold in the winter.
Steve
visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com
I live in town and have friends that work there and had worked there.
Hurricanes are tough on them, but they are fast growing and often used
for chip works and others boards - only the tall best ones for poles.
Other friends in the power/telephone pole business.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
On 8/12/2010 10:43 PM, dpb wrote:
> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>> Temple industries
> ...
> Any information on the genetics?
>
> --
You would never get that from them anyway so quit asking about it.
It is called trade secret. They don't patent stuff like that because
they run out.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
On 8/13/2010 11:11 PM, dpb wrote:
> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>> I live in town and have friends that work there and had worked there.
> ...
>
> That's of no information on what the cultivars from which they were hybridized
> or otherwise developed are...
>
> --
Well it doesn't have needles. The leaflets are like needles but are
different. One could broadly call it as that, but a Ginkgo isn't an Oak.
Has small cones. And that is a good thing. They fall all of the time.
It is closer to Cedars of the middle East than pine. It once ruled the west
from the Mississippi to the Pacific - the Petrified Forest is of species
And by your definitions it is in the eye of the beholder - They build bridges
and multi-story buildings. Oh yea - pencils also like cedar.
The person I got it from was a certified arborist working in the rain forest.
One has to have professional help when cutting more than a few limbs.
One of these 150 foot tall babies easily crushes a car to the ground or a house.
Here are some specs :
> Numerical Data
> Item Green Dry English
>
> Bending Strength 6845 9836 psi
> Crushing Strength 412 686 psi
> Density 25 lbs/ft3
> Hardness 402 lbs
> Impact Strength 21 17 inches
> Maximum Crushing Strength 3984 6180 psi
> Shearing Strength 977 psi
> Stiffness 1109 1281 1000 psi
> Toughness 95 inch-lbs
> Work to Maximum Load 6 7 inch-lbs/in3
> Specific Gravity 0.37 0.38
> Weight 26 21 lbs/ft3
> Radial Shrinkage 2 %
> Tangential Shrinkage 4 %
> Volumetric Shrinkage 7 %
>
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
On 8/9/2010 6:01 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 8/8/2010 9:16 PM, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>> Redwood is listed as a hardwood.
>
> Listed by who? By the standard definition, redwood, being an evergreen conifer,
> is most assuredly a softwood. By hardness comparison it is less hard than
> Douglas Fir and most pines.
>
> Note that balsa is a hardwood--while on average across all species hardwoods are
> harder than softwoods, one cannot simply conclude that because something is a
> hardwood it is harder than any given softwood, nor can one conclude because one
> piece of wood is harder than another that one is a hardwood and the other a
> softwood.
>
> For future reference, if it's a gymnosperm it's a softwood, if it's an
> angiosperm it's a hardwood. As to how you tell them apart, in some cases it
> takes an expert but as a rule of thumb if it has needles and cones it's a
> gymnosperm.
>
>> It is dense not porous.
> >
>>
>> I had 7 acres of coastal redwoods at one time and with scrap had by bandsaw
>> cut some heavy wood. 3x 4X typical. Built a wood rack that holds a
>> cord of wood - left it with the house. Built a nice potting bench out of
>> heavy wood and brought it with us. Now in Texas.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> Martin H. Eastburn
>> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
>> "Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
>> TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
>> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
>> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
>>
>> On 8/8/2010 10:49 AM, dpb wrote:
>>> Steve B wrote:
>>>> I want to get some 4 x 12 beams for a pergola. I have four, IIRC,
>>>> down in
>>>> Vegas, about 12 to 16 feet long, square on the ends. They are about
>>>> ten to
>>>> twenty years old, and straight as day one.
>>>>
>>>> Are they pine? Fir? What was used for external wood back then? If I was
>>>> to go buy some stuff today, what would I ask for? ...
>>>
>>> If the reference to Vegas means location rather than the proposed
>>> payout plan,
>>> then more than likely they're either Doug fir or perhaps redwood
>>> (altho you
>>> later went on to say they're fairly hard so that would tend to negate the
>>> latter). My vote in the western states would be most likely fir.
>>>
>>> As for what to ask for today, a key to your IRA would be first
>>> followed by visit
>>> to the local pole barn erector or timber framer depending on how deep
>>> the well
>>> is...
>>>
>>> --
>
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote
> And I assure you that Southern Yellow Pine does not fall over in a
> windstorm. Not even a hurricane unless the tree is damaged.
I will have to correct you on that notion. I live where plenty of them
grow, and yes, SYP will fall over in a windstorm, especially a hurricane.
They are particularly easy to blow over when a fairly dense grove has been
thinned out, like you would for making a yard around a new house. When Hugo
hit NC, it was at minimum hurricane strength around here, and a house I had
under construction at the time lost so many SYP that it took 3 men and a
bulldozer 2 1/2 days to delimb and pull the trunks out to the road on a lot
of about an acre. There were many other SYP that blew over other places in
undisturbed groves, also.
You could not even give a tree away, even if it was delimbed and sitting out
by the road ready to haul off.
--
Jim in NC
Yes that's true. Balsa wood is considered a hard wood.
While certainly not hard, for it's weight it is very strong.
It used to be used between sheets of aluminum for bulkheads in planes.
Don't know if it is still being used for that.
On 8/9/2010 2:21 AM, dpb wrote:
> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>> Redwood is listed as a hardwood.
>> It is dense not porous.
> ...
>
> "softwood" vis a vis "hardwood" is a generic differentiation of non- vs
> deciduous, not a description of the wood itself. It is generally true
> that hardwoods are, in fact, harder than softwoods on average but there
> are exceptions.
>
> I made no statement about density; nor did I infer it was particularly
> an open-grained wood.
>
> --
The other issue is the Sequoia sempervirens is one of three species
of Sequoia. I was lucky to have two species growing in my yard. I didn't
have but could have gotten the third but the big ones are in the process
of dying out having been mis-managed for years and thinking (poorly) they
last forever. They are long lived but after a while stop making cones or
stop making seed. The keepers failed to keep this as a possible life.
The small sprouts that have been cut for years - like grass - are no longer
like that in the parks - except near the smallest / youngest trees.
In the NIST group listing - had only one inspector for Redwood odd...
It is an industry control spec for quality and sizing.
It isn't a botanical definition.
It is like tire companies rating all mobile vehicles by weight and putting
cranes, tanks together and all two and three wheeled machine as cars. And
they mean which plant will make what for the two groups.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
On 8/9/2010 5:21 PM, dpb wrote:
> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> ...
>
>> And by your definitions it is in the eye of the beholder - They build bridges
>> and multi-story buildings. Oh yea - pencils also like cedar.
>
> ...
>
> Well, there's a pretty significant beholder involved --
>
> For confirmation, you could look at the NIST-issued
> _American_Softwood_Lunber_Standard_ at the following url--
>
> <http://ts.nist.gov/standards/conformity/upload/ps20-05.pdf>
>
> p.42 includes the definition of softwood for commercial purposes as
>
> "softwood--one of the group of trees which have
> needle-like or scale-like leaves. The term has
> no specific reference to the softness of the
> wood."
>
> And, to complete the heartburn for the ignominy suffered by the magnificent
> redwoods, on p. 33 in
>
> APPENDIX A COMMERCIAL NAMES OF THE PRINCIPAL SOFTWOOD SPECIES
> ...
> Commercial Official Common Species or Species
>
> Group Names Tree Names Botanical Names
> ...
> REDWOOD:
> Redwood redwood Sequoia sempervirens
>
> ...
>
> The point is as noted before, in wood technology, construction, woodworking,
> etc., etc., etc., "softwoods" and "hardwoods" are generic labels for broad
> classifications that sorta' follow taxonomic rules but it is _not_ the same by
> any stretch nor intended to be. It's a convenience for commercial purposes.
>
> --
Steve B wrote:
> I want to get some 4 x 12 beams for a pergola. I have four, IIRC, down in
> Vegas, about 12 to 16 feet long, square on the ends. They are about ten to
> twenty years old, and straight as day one.
>
> Are they pine? Fir? What was used for external wood back then? If I was
> to go buy some stuff today, what would I ask for? ...
If the reference to Vegas means location rather than the proposed payout
plan, then more than likely they're either Doug fir or perhaps redwood
(altho you later went on to say they're fairly hard so that would tend
to negate the latter). My vote in the western states would be most
likely fir.
As for what to ask for today, a key to your IRA would be first followed
by visit to the local pole barn erector or timber framer depending on
how deep the well is...
--
On 8/8/2010 9:41 AM, Steve B wrote:
> I want to get some 4 x 12 beams for a pergola. I have four, IIRC, down in
> Vegas, about 12 to 16 feet long, square on the ends. They are about ten to
> twenty years old, and straight as day one.
>
> Are they pine? Fir? What was used for external wood back then? If I was
> to go buy some stuff today, what would I ask for? Really, I think I'll put
> an ad on Craigslist for old wood, and just use stuff that is old that has
> kept straight. Guides for identifying wood would be helpful.
>
> It seems that this old wood is fairly dense (heavy). Just going to band saw
> it on the ends, or carve it. I live in a dry climate with little rain, and
> reasonably cold in the winter.
>
> Steve
>
> visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com
I built a pergola a few years ago and used Western Red Cedar that I bought from
the local Ace Hardware lumber yard (don't know how many of _those_ are left in
the world...). Used 6x6 vertical posts, 2x12 beams (let-in to 2x10 in some
places for decoration), 2x8 rafters on 24" centers over the beams, then topped
it off with 2x4 longitudinals on 12" centers for blocking the sun. All
horizontals overhang their supporting sections and have nice "ogee" patterns
cut into the ends. Finished it with a liberal application of Behr premium
25-year weatherproofing wood "stain" (it's really paint, not stain), and there
are no signs of warping, splitting, rotting, or deterioration anywhere. I'll
report back in 5 years. :-)
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> Redwood is listed as a hardwood.
> It is dense not porous.
...
"softwood" vis a vis "hardwood" is a generic differentiation of non- vs
deciduous, not a description of the wood itself. It is generally true
that hardwoods are, in fact, harder than softwoods on average but there
are exceptions.
I made no statement about density; nor did I infer it was particularly
an open-grained wood.
--
On 8/8/2010 9:16 PM, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> Redwood is listed as a hardwood.
Listed by who? By the standard definition, redwood, being an evergreen
conifer, is most assuredly a softwood. By hardness comparison it is
less hard than Douglas Fir and most pines.
Note that balsa is a hardwood--while on average across all species
hardwoods are harder than softwoods, one cannot simply conclude that
because something is a hardwood it is harder than any given softwood,
nor can one conclude because one piece of wood is harder than another
that one is a hardwood and the other a softwood.
For future reference, if it's a gymnosperm it's a softwood, if it's an
angiosperm it's a hardwood. As to how you tell them apart, in some
cases it takes an expert but as a rule of thumb if it has needles and
cones it's a gymnosperm.
> It is dense not porous.
>
>
> I had 7 acres of coastal redwoods at one time and with scrap had by bandsaw
> cut some heavy wood. 3x 4X typical. Built a wood rack that holds a
> cord of wood - left it with the house. Built a nice potting bench out of
> heavy wood and brought it with us. Now in Texas.
>
> Martin
>
> Martin H. Eastburn
> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
> "Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
> TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
>
> On 8/8/2010 10:49 AM, dpb wrote:
>> Steve B wrote:
>>> I want to get some 4 x 12 beams for a pergola. I have four, IIRC,
>>> down in
>>> Vegas, about 12 to 16 feet long, square on the ends. They are about
>>> ten to
>>> twenty years old, and straight as day one.
>>>
>>> Are they pine? Fir? What was used for external wood back then? If I was
>>> to go buy some stuff today, what would I ask for? ...
>>
>> If the reference to Vegas means location rather than the proposed
>> payout plan,
>> then more than likely they're either Doug fir or perhaps redwood
>> (altho you
>> later went on to say they're fairly hard so that would tend to negate the
>> latter). My vote in the western states would be most likely fir.
>>
>> As for what to ask for today, a key to your IRA would be first
>> followed by visit
>> to the local pole barn erector or timber framer depending on how deep
>> the well
>> is...
>>
>> --
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
...
> And by your definitions it is in the eye of the beholder - They build
> bridges and multi-story buildings. Oh yea - pencils also like cedar.
...
Well, there's a pretty significant beholder involved --
For confirmation, you could look at the NIST-issued
_American_Softwood_Lunber_Standard_ at the following url--
<http://ts.nist.gov/standards/conformity/upload/ps20-05.pdf>
p.42 includes the definition of softwood for commercial purposes as
"softwood--one of the group of trees which have
needle-like or scale-like leaves. The term has
no specific reference to the softness of the
wood."
And, to complete the heartburn for the ignominy suffered by the
magnificent redwoods, on p. 33 in
APPENDIX A COMMERCIAL NAMES OF THE PRINCIPAL SOFTWOOD SPECIES
...
Commercial Official Common Species or Species
Group Names Tree Names Botanical Names
...
REDWOOD:
Redwood redwood Sequoia sempervirens
...
The point is as noted before, in wood technology, construction,
woodworking, etc., etc., etc., "softwoods" and "hardwoods" are generic
labels for broad classifications that sorta' follow taxonomic rules but
it is _not_ the same by any stretch nor intended to be. It's a
convenience for commercial purposes.
--
On 8/9/2010 11:23 PM, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> Wonder what the Beam wood association calls it.
Is that the name of the organization? Do you have an address for them?
> One thing for the institute to call it that way in general terms -
> but it is tougher than Fir and Pine in my backward.
Which says that you don't have douglas fir or southern yellow pine in
your "backward".
> If someone wants to define what is black and what is white and there
> are no grades between - then so be it. Some don't. Engineers don't.
> They have to have specs. Not an general classification.
Which is irrelevant to the question. If you insist that hardness is the
criterion, then compare redwood to ipe and you'll find that redwood is
only slightly harder than balsa.
> No wonder we are going to LAM Beams now. The beam barn in one lumberyard
> was monstrous. Horse and then track movers would pull in over 80' logs
> to make beams. I used to drive my truck in on one side to load wood
> stored on the side out of the rain.
I'm not sure what relevance you believe any of this to have. Would you
care to explain?
> Martin
>
> Martin H. Eastburn
> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
> "Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
> TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
>
> On 8/9/2010 5:21 PM, dpb wrote:
>> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> And by your definitions it is in the eye of the beholder - They build
>>> bridges
>>> and multi-story buildings. Oh yea - pencils also like cedar.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Well, there's a pretty significant beholder involved --
>>
>> For confirmation, you could look at the NIST-issued
>> _American_Softwood_Lunber_Standard_ at the following url--
>>
>> <http://ts.nist.gov/standards/conformity/upload/ps20-05.pdf>
>>
>> p.42 includes the definition of softwood for commercial purposes as
>>
>> "softwood--one of the group of trees which have
>> needle-like or scale-like leaves. The term has
>> no specific reference to the softness of the
>> wood."
>>
>> And, to complete the heartburn for the ignominy suffered by the
>> magnificent
>> redwoods, on p. 33 in
>>
>> APPENDIX A COMMERCIAL NAMES OF THE PRINCIPAL SOFTWOOD SPECIES
>> ...
>> Commercial Official Common Species or Species
>>
>> Group Names Tree Names Botanical Names
>> ...
>> REDWOOD:
>> Redwood redwood Sequoia sempervirens
>>
>> ...
>>
>> The point is as noted before, in wood technology, construction,
>> woodworking,
>> etc., etc., etc., "softwoods" and "hardwoods" are generic labels for
>> broad
>> classifications that sorta' follow taxonomic rules but it is _not_ the
>> same by
>> any stretch nor intended to be. It's a convenience for commercial
>> purposes.
>>
>> --
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
...
> It is an industry control spec for quality and sizing.
>
> It isn't a botanical definition.
Precisely...which is what I said in the first response and followed up
w/ the comment...
> "softwoods" and "hardwoods" are generic labels for broad
> classifications that sorta' follow taxonomic rules but it is_not_ the
> same by any stretch nor intended to be. It's a convenience
> for commercial purposes."
And has been common usage for _a_very_long_time_ -- 100+ years at least
and isn't going to go away...
There's no point in nor any need for the precise botanical
identification nor nuances in grading nor identification for commercial
purposes. Making such distinctions may be an interesting intellectual
pursuit for you, but for practical purposes for woodworking the general
rules of grading and measure for hardwoods and softwoods control what
one gets from a mill or distributor.
--
On 8/9/2010 11:51 PM, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> The other issue is the Sequoia sempervirens is one of three species
> of Sequoia. I was lucky to have two species growing in my yard. I didn't
> have but could have gotten the third but the big ones are in the process
> of dying out having been mis-managed for years and thinking (poorly) they
> last forever. They are long lived but after a while stop making cones or
> stop making seed. The keepers failed to keep this as a possible life.
> The small sprouts that have been cut for years - like grass - are no longer
> like that in the parks - except near the smallest / youngest trees.
>
> In the NIST group listing - had only one inspector for Redwood odd...
>
> It is an industry control spec for quality and sizing.
What "NIST group listing" are you talking about? Do you have a link to it?
> It isn't a botanical definition.
The definition may not be botanical but the characteristics on which it
is based most assuredly are.
>
> It is like tire companies rating all mobile vehicles by weight and putting
> cranes, tanks together and all two and three wheeled machine as cars. And
> they mean which plant will make what for the two groups.
Are you drinking? This rambling seems completely senseless. The
distinction between "hardwood" and "softwood" has been the same for as
long as I can remember and has nothing to do with the hardness of the
wood. As for different species of redwood, the difference between
hardwood and softwood happens at the taxonomic group level, one down
from kingdom. You won't have one species that's a softwood and one
that's a hardwood within the same genus.
>
> Martin
>
> Martin H. Eastburn
> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
> "Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
> TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
>
> On 8/9/2010 5:21 PM, dpb wrote:
>> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> And by your definitions it is in the eye of the beholder - They build
>>> bridges
>>> and multi-story buildings. Oh yea - pencils also like cedar.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Well, there's a pretty significant beholder involved --
>>
>> For confirmation, you could look at the NIST-issued
>> _American_Softwood_Lunber_Standard_ at the following url--
>>
>> <http://ts.nist.gov/standards/conformity/upload/ps20-05.pdf>
>>
>> p.42 includes the definition of softwood for commercial purposes as
>>
>> "softwood--one of the group of trees which have
>> needle-like or scale-like leaves. The term has
>> no specific reference to the softness of the
>> wood."
>>
>> And, to complete the heartburn for the ignominy suffered by the
>> magnificent
>> redwoods, on p. 33 in
>>
>> APPENDIX A COMMERCIAL NAMES OF THE PRINCIPAL SOFTWOOD SPECIES
>> ...
>> Commercial Official Common Species or Species
>>
>> Group Names Tree Names Botanical Names
>> ...
>> REDWOOD:
>> Redwood redwood Sequoia sempervirens
>>
>> ...
>>
>> The point is as noted before, in wood technology, construction,
>> woodworking,
>> etc., etc., etc., "softwoods" and "hardwoods" are generic labels for
>> broad
>> classifications that sorta' follow taxonomic rules but it is _not_ the
>> same by
>> any stretch nor intended to be. It's a convenience for commercial
>> purposes.
>>
>> --
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> Wonder what the Beam wood association calls it.
"Softwood"
> One thing for the institute to call it that way in general terms -
> but it is tougher than Fir and Pine in my backward.
>
> If someone wants to define what is black and what is white and there
> are no grades between - then so be it. Some don't. Engineers don't.
> They have to have specs. Not an general classification.
"They" do have specs...and the NIST Standard (along w/ the referenced
ASME Standards) this is it. For lumber classification redwood is a
softwood regardless of where it fits in the scale of physical properties
of any or all woods.
If you're going to converse in a building trades or woodworking forum,
the above definition of softwoods vs hardwoods is the prevailing one and
there's no point in trying to swim upstream as it is the working
definition in the specific area and any other usage is counter to that.
...
>> "softwood--one of the group of trees which have
>> needle-like or scale-like leaves. The term has
>> no specific reference to the softness of the
>> wood."
And, just to ensure that you're not confused that the definition is a
working one rather than botanical, try this one on for size... :)
> Hardwood: A general category to describe trees with broad, flat, or
> scalloped leaves. Hardwood trees have their seed contained within a
> nut, fruit, berry or other outer casing. Most hardwoods are
> deciduous, meaning they drop their leaves each year, but some
> hardwoods are evergreen, such as holly and magnolia. The actual
> hardness of the wood varies widely from species to species.
> Softwood: A general category to describe trees with needles
> or scale-like leaflets. Softwood trees have their seed contained
> within a cone that releases the seed. Most softwoods are evergreen,
> meaning they retain green, living foliage throughout the year, but
> some softwoods are deciduous such as cypress. The actual hardness of
> the wood varies widely from species to species.
<http://www.dfr.state.nc.us/publications/Forestry%20Leaflets/FM01.pdf>
I couldn't find an online copy of ASTM D9 - [rev],
_Standard_Terminology_Relating_to_Wood_, but its definition is consonant
w/ the above (since it's referenced in the NIST document, that shouldn't
be surprising... :) ).
The upshot is, as in any specific field, words are as Humpty Dumpty
said--"it means just what I choose it to mean" which is why Standards
contain a definitions section because terms may not have the same
interpretation as common usage outside the field.
--
On 8/10/2010 11:03 PM, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> I had 120' Firs
Are those Douglas Fir? "Fir" is not Douglas Fir. Douglas Fir is a
different genus from Fir. Douglas Fir has a janka hardness ranging from
510 to 780 depending on particular species, fir goes from 350-500.
> and 150 to 180' Coastal redwoods. Holly that was cut
> down by the power company - it was 10" at the cut. I was able to make
> nice desk 'cups' for pencils, rubber bands and paper clips.
Did you consider selling it? I've seen prices on Holly comparable to Ebony.
> I think you confuse the full of air outer bulky bark. It rotates with
> the trunk as it grows - corkscrew mode - limbs swing into the way. They
> cause limbs to be knocked off or mesh together. They bind the sides
> creating wind stops and strength. The massive small root ball
I don't "confuse" anything. Balsa janka hardness 100. Redwood janka
hardness 480. Ipe janka hardness 3800. From the viewpoint of an ipe
hammer there's not much difference between redwood and balsa.
> The heartwood is dense.
For certain values of "dense". Redwood specific gravity is around .45,
douglas fir around .53, ipe around .88, ebony and lignum vitae are over
1.0--they sink in water.
> Fires stop at the outer bark in a char. The
> cream sapwood stays moist. They grow a foot or more every day it rains
> or has fog.
What relevance do you believe fire resistance to have to the question of
whether something is a "hardwood"? In any case ipe has the same fire
rating as concrete.
As for growth rate, bamboo grows fast too--does that make it a hardwood?
> My 180' babies were only 90 years old. They were clear cut for the '07
> earthquake in San Francisco.
Sorry to hear that.
> I have 100' yellow pine on this place. Wimpy trees for the most part,
> but not bad for their species. The lumber people grow a special version
> that doesn't have a tap root. These fall over in wind storms. The roots
> rot out and wait for a storm.
The height of the tree is irrelevant to whether it is a hardwood or
softwood. Lignum Vitae is the hardest wood known and it grows about 30
feet. It is also a hardwood.
Pine without a taproot is not Southern Yellow Pine. You seem to be
sloppy about nomenclature. Southern Yellow Pine is different from other
Yellow Pines, just as Douglas Fir is different from other Firs. And I
assure you that Southern Yellow Pine does not fall over in a windstorm.
Not even a hurricane unless the tree is damaged.
We get that you like redwood. It's still a softwood. Get used to it.
You seem to think that that's some kind of insult. It's not, it's just
the way it is.
> Martin
>
> Martin H. Eastburn
> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
> "Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
> TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
>
> On 8/9/2010 10:52 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 8/9/2010 11:23 PM, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>>> Wonder what the Beam wood association calls it.
>>
>> Is that the name of the organization? Do you have an address for them?
>>
>>> One thing for the institute to call it that way in general terms -
>>> but it is tougher than Fir and Pine in my backward.
>>
>> Which says that you don't have douglas fir or southern yellow pine in
>> your
>> "backward".
>>
>>> If someone wants to define what is black and what is white and there
>>> are no grades between - then so be it. Some don't. Engineers don't.
>>> They have to have specs. Not an general classification.
>>
>> Which is irrelevant to the question. If you insist that hardness is the
>> criterion, then compare redwood to ipe and you'll find that redwood is
>> only
>> slightly harder than balsa.
>>
>>> No wonder we are going to LAM Beams now. The beam barn in one lumberyard
>>> was monstrous. Horse and then track movers would pull in over 80' logs
>>> to make beams. I used to drive my truck in on one side to load wood
>>> stored on the side out of the rain.
>>
>> I'm not sure what relevance you believe any of this to have. Would you
>> care to
>> explain?
>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> Martin H. Eastburn
>>> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot
>>> net
>>> "Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
>>> TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
>>> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
>>> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
>>>
>>> On 8/9/2010 5:21 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> And by your definitions it is in the eye of the beholder - They build
>>>>> bridges
>>>>> and multi-story buildings. Oh yea - pencils also like cedar.
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Well, there's a pretty significant beholder involved --
>>>>
>>>> For confirmation, you could look at the NIST-issued
>>>> _American_Softwood_Lunber_Standard_ at the following url--
>>>>
>>>> <http://ts.nist.gov/standards/conformity/upload/ps20-05.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> p.42 includes the definition of softwood for commercial purposes as
>>>>
>>>> "softwood--one of the group of trees which have
>>>> needle-like or scale-like leaves. The term has
>>>> no specific reference to the softness of the
>>>> wood."
>>>>
>>>> And, to complete the heartburn for the ignominy suffered by the
>>>> magnificent
>>>> redwoods, on p. 33 in
>>>>
>>>> APPENDIX A COMMERCIAL NAMES OF THE PRINCIPAL SOFTWOOD SPECIES
>>>> ...
>>>> Commercial Official Common Species or Species
>>>>
>>>> Group Names Tree Names Botanical Names
>>>> ...
>>>> REDWOOD:
>>>> Redwood redwood Sequoia sempervirens
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> The point is as noted before, in wood technology, construction,
>>>> woodworking,
>>>> etc., etc., etc., "softwoods" and "hardwoods" are generic labels for
>>>> broad
>>>> classifications that sorta' follow taxonomic rules but it is _not_ the
>>>> same by
>>>> any stretch nor intended to be. It's a convenience for commercial
>>>> purposes.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>
On 8/11/2010 9:27 AM, Morgans wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote
>
>> And I assure you that Southern Yellow Pine does not fall over in a
>> windstorm. Not even a hurricane unless the tree is damaged.
>
> I will have to correct you on that notion. I live where plenty of them
> grow, and yes, SYP will fall over in a windstorm, especially a hurricane.
>
> They are particularly easy to blow over when a fairly dense grove has been
> thinned out, like you would for making a yard around a new house. When Hugo
> hit NC, it was at minimum hurricane strength around here, and a house I had
> under construction at the time lost so many SYP that it took 3 men and a
> bulldozer 2 1/2 days to delimb and pull the trunks out to the road on a lot
> of about an acre. There were many other SYP that blew over other places in
> undisturbed groves, also.
>
> You could not even give a tree away, even if it was delimbed and sitting out
> by the road ready to haul off.
While those might have been yellow pines growing in the South, if you
couldn't give one away it wasn't a Southern Yellow Pine--they are not
common and the lumber carries a premium price. The most common pine in
North Carolina is Loblolly, which is a fine tree but not the same.
The Southern Yellow Pine is known for its deep taproot the same diameter
as the trunk. That makes them excpetionally difficult to blow over.
J. Clarke wrote:
...
> While those might have been yellow pines growing in the South, if you
> couldn't give one away it wasn't a Southern Yellow Pine--they are not
> common and the lumber carries a premium price. The most common pine in
> North Carolina is Loblolly, which is a fine tree but not the same.
AFAIK Southern Yellow Pine (SYP) is a collective that covers several
species including Longleaf (Pinus palustris), Slash (Pinus elliottii),
Loblolly (Pinus taeda) and Shortleaf (Pinus echinata) as well as a few
others.
I did a quick check of the Forest Products Handbook and "yellow pine"
doesn't show up in Chapter 2. The section on NA softwoods includes the
above as "Pine, Southern Group"
<http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_02.pdf>
> The Southern Yellow Pine is known for its deep taproot the same diameter
> as the trunk. That makes them excpetionally difficult to blow over.
Also afaik all of these have sizable taproots; a study of increasing
yields by harvesting taproots found they comprised 15% of biomass for a
sample of loblolly. I saw another data point that indicated average for
the group was in the same general neighborhood.
--
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
...
> I have 100' yellow pine on this place. Wimpy trees for the most part,
> but not bad for their species. The lumber people grow a special version
> that doesn't have a tap root. These fall over in wind storms. The roots
> rot out and wait for a storm.
...
I'm unaware of which the latter would be...generally the pulp and tree
farm framing lumber tracts are one of the southern pines (see above).
If you'd like further real reading, I did find the link to the US Forest
Products publication -- Chap 2 and 3 would be most appropriate to the
discussion here...
<http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_03.pdf>
It should be fairly obvious how to modify the url for other chapters...
Also, Hoadley, Bruce "Understanding Wood" from Taunton Press is
generally regarded as one of if not the best summary volume.
--
I lost 3 acres of oak wood lot. Some cross piles stacking up are house high.
The native pines lived the horizontal blast it took from IKE.
Every limb 1" and under was on the ground and many tops out of trees.
Looking at these trees in the winter - you can see years of abuse.
One ball shaped live oak had a flat side that was pushed out - I had to
tie lines and pull apart the limbs to re-shape it. It was near the
front North-East corner of the house.
I stated the exotic pine lumber now is tap rootless. Not SYP.
This is lumber and telephone/power pole part of Texas.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
On 8/11/2010 8:27 AM, Morgans wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote
>
>> And I assure you that Southern Yellow Pine does not fall over in a
>> windstorm. Not even a hurricane unless the tree is damaged.
>
> I will have to correct you on that notion. I live where plenty of them
> grow, and yes, SYP will fall over in a windstorm, especially a hurricane.
>
> They are particularly easy to blow over when a fairly dense grove has been
> thinned out, like you would for making a yard around a new house. When Hugo
> hit NC, it was at minimum hurricane strength around here, and a house I had
> under construction at the time lost so many SYP that it took 3 men and a
> bulldozer 2 1/2 days to delimb and pull the trunks out to the road on a lot
> of about an acre. There were many other SYP that blew over other places in
> undisturbed groves, also.
>
> You could not even give a tree away, even if it was delimbed and sitting out
> by the road ready to haul off.
Temple industries
Now all but sold off and disbanded - but a lot of it is still working.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
On 8/11/2010 11:26 PM, dpb wrote:
> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> ...
>
>> I stated the exotic pine lumber now is tap rootless. Not SYP.
> ...
>
> I'm still curious what these are/who developed them???
>
> --
On 8/11/2010 9:51 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 8/11/2010 9:27 AM, Morgans wrote:
<snip>
> While those might have been yellow pines growing in the South, if you couldn't
> give one away it wasn't a Southern Yellow Pine--they are not common and the
> lumber carries a premium price. The most common pine in North Carolina is
> Loblolly, which is a fine tree but not the same.
>
> The Southern Yellow Pine is known for its deep taproot the same diameter as the
> trunk. That makes them excpetionally difficult to blow over.
>
>
The deep tap root is also a bane to cost and production. Once cut - the stump
must be removed and land cleared and replanted. Deep root can't be bulldozer
over with a blade or chain. So the plantations growing seedlings went to a
faster growing better condition - limbs start at ~60' and improves yield.
These are production trees and take little work to mill or clean for coating.
When a large lumber company spends money, it wants to maximize profits and
minimize scrap. Even with chip mills and Lam mills - scrap costs money.
Now there is a spin-off business that is making a lot of money. So fields are
being planted again with optimized trees for the new - non-lumber - use. :-)
Martin
Redwood is listed as a hardwood.
It is dense not porous.
I had 7 acres of coastal redwoods at one time and with scrap had by bandsaw
cut some heavy wood. 3x 4X typical. Built a wood rack that holds a
cord of wood - left it with the house. Built a nice potting bench out of
heavy wood and brought it with us. Now in Texas.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
On 8/8/2010 10:49 AM, dpb wrote:
> Steve B wrote:
>> I want to get some 4 x 12 beams for a pergola. I have four, IIRC, down in
>> Vegas, about 12 to 16 feet long, square on the ends. They are about ten to
>> twenty years old, and straight as day one.
>>
>> Are they pine? Fir? What was used for external wood back then? If I was
>> to go buy some stuff today, what would I ask for? ...
>
> If the reference to Vegas means location rather than the proposed payout plan,
> then more than likely they're either Doug fir or perhaps redwood (altho you
> later went on to say they're fairly hard so that would tend to negate the
> latter). My vote in the western states would be most likely fir.
>
> As for what to ask for today, a key to your IRA would be first followed by visit
> to the local pole barn erector or timber framer depending on how deep the well
> is...
>
> --
"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 8/8/2010 9:41 AM, Steve B wrote:
>> I want to get some 4 x 12 beams for a pergola. I have four, IIRC, down
>> in
>> Vegas, about 12 to 16 feet long, square on the ends. They are about ten
>> to
>> twenty years old, and straight as day one.
>>
>> Are they pine? Fir? What was used for external wood back then? If I
>> was
>> to go buy some stuff today, what would I ask for? Really, I think I'll
>> put
>> an ad on Craigslist for old wood, and just use stuff that is old that has
>> kept straight. Guides for identifying wood would be helpful.
>>
>> It seems that this old wood is fairly dense (heavy). Just going to band
>> saw
>> it on the ends, or carve it. I live in a dry climate with little rain,
>> and
>> reasonably cold in the winter.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com
>
> I built a pergola a few years ago and used Western Red Cedar that I bought
> from the local Ace Hardware lumber yard (don't know how many of _those_
> are left in the world...). Used 6x6 vertical posts, 2x12 beams (let-in to
> 2x10 in some places for decoration), 2x8 rafters on 24" centers over the
> beams, then topped it off with 2x4 longitudinals on 12" centers for
> blocking the sun. All horizontals overhang their supporting sections and
> have nice "ogee" patterns cut into the ends. Finished it with a liberal
> application of Behr premium 25-year weatherproofing wood "stain" (it's
> really paint, not stain), and there are no signs of warping, splitting,
> rotting, or deterioration anywhere. I'll report back in 5 years. :-)
>
> --
> See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
> To reply, eat the taco.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Sounds sturdy. Actually, I have come up with an idea suggested in another
newsgroup, and it involves stuff I have in stock.
Telephone poles, I have about a dozen. Corrugated CorTen steel panels, 7' x
6'. HEAVY. I am thinking of making the frame out of telephone poles, then
decking the top with the CorTen panels. 6 or 8" galvanized lags to hold
them on. Not a lot of fancy woodwork, but some to saddle the poles, and get
the whole framework to lay right. Something close to log cabin
construction.
Steve
visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com
I had 120' Firs and 150 to 180' Coastal redwoods. Holly that was cut
down by the power company - it was 10" at the cut. I was able to make
nice desk 'cups' for pencils, rubber bands and paper clips.
I think you confuse the full of air outer bulky bark. It rotates with
the trunk as it grows - corkscrew mode - limbs swing into the way. They
cause limbs to be knocked off or mesh together. They bind the sides
creating wind stops and strength. The massive small root ball
The heartwood is dense. Fires stop at the outer bark in a char. The
cream sapwood stays moist. They grow a foot or more every day it rains
or has fog.
My 180' babies were only 90 years old. They were clear cut for the '07
earthquake in San Francisco.
I have 100' yellow pine on this place. Wimpy trees for the most part,
but not bad for their species. The lumber people grow a special version
that doesn't have a tap root. These fall over in wind storms. The roots
rot out and wait for a storm.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
On 8/9/2010 10:52 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 8/9/2010 11:23 PM, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>> Wonder what the Beam wood association calls it.
>
> Is that the name of the organization? Do you have an address for them?
>
>> One thing for the institute to call it that way in general terms -
>> but it is tougher than Fir and Pine in my backward.
>
> Which says that you don't have douglas fir or southern yellow pine in your
> "backward".
>
>> If someone wants to define what is black and what is white and there
>> are no grades between - then so be it. Some don't. Engineers don't.
>> They have to have specs. Not an general classification.
>
> Which is irrelevant to the question. If you insist that hardness is the
> criterion, then compare redwood to ipe and you'll find that redwood is only
> slightly harder than balsa.
>
>> No wonder we are going to LAM Beams now. The beam barn in one lumberyard
>> was monstrous. Horse and then track movers would pull in over 80' logs
>> to make beams. I used to drive my truck in on one side to load wood
>> stored on the side out of the rain.
>
> I'm not sure what relevance you believe any of this to have. Would you care to
> explain?
>
>> Martin
>>
>> Martin H. Eastburn
>> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
>> "Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
>> TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
>> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
>> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/
>>
>> On 8/9/2010 5:21 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> And by your definitions it is in the eye of the beholder - They build
>>>> bridges
>>>> and multi-story buildings. Oh yea - pencils also like cedar.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Well, there's a pretty significant beholder involved --
>>>
>>> For confirmation, you could look at the NIST-issued
>>> _American_Softwood_Lunber_Standard_ at the following url--
>>>
>>> <http://ts.nist.gov/standards/conformity/upload/ps20-05.pdf>
>>>
>>> p.42 includes the definition of softwood for commercial purposes as
>>>
>>> "softwood--one of the group of trees which have
>>> needle-like or scale-like leaves. The term has
>>> no specific reference to the softness of the
>>> wood."
>>>
>>> And, to complete the heartburn for the ignominy suffered by the
>>> magnificent
>>> redwoods, on p. 33 in
>>>
>>> APPENDIX A COMMERCIAL NAMES OF THE PRINCIPAL SOFTWOOD SPECIES
>>> ...
>>> Commercial Official Common Species or Species
>>>
>>> Group Names Tree Names Botanical Names
>>> ...
>>> REDWOOD:
>>> Redwood redwood Sequoia sempervirens
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The point is as noted before, in wood technology, construction,
>>> woodworking,
>>> etc., etc., etc., "softwoods" and "hardwoods" are generic labels for
>>> broad
>>> classifications that sorta' follow taxonomic rules but it is _not_ the
>>> same by
>>> any stretch nor intended to be. It's a convenience for commercial
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> --
>