I have a raw 12 ft x 15" bar top for my new media/wine room. I need to
lightly stain and then finish this.
I have not worked with white oak but only red oak. This absorbs the stain
very strongly into the soft grain areas but hardly any into the hard areas.
The result is very unattractive.
After staining I will finish with a marine grade, solvent borne, clear, semi
gloss (or satin) polyurethane.
Does white oak stain like red oak? If so, what is the best method to obtain
an EVEN stain on white oak? Also, is my approach for finishing the counter
top OK? I don't want to use a non-marine urethane because of its age
yellowing.
Peter.
I'm having the same issue with white oak right now. I've tried a gel
stain, and also pre-coating with 1lb shellac, with the same results you
described. Hopefully that can save you some trial-and-error time.
My next idea (based on Flexner's finishing book) is to test a dye-based
stain (instead of pigment-based as most stains are), which should
theoretically dye the early wood and late wood more evenly.
In the meantime, I'd appreciate others' experiences as well.
Andy
I don't have any experience with white oak, but using a toner, rather
than a stain, will give you much better results if the wood tends to
absorb stain unevenly. The basic difference is that a stain penetrates
(often unevenly), while a toner is simply a pigment which resides in
your polyurethane. It's kind of like translucent paint. The color
depth is controlled simply by how thick you apply it. Minwax
Polyshades is an example, though it doesn't meet your criterion for a
marine grade poly. You can accomplish the same thing by mixing an
oil-based stain with your solvent borne poly, but experiment on scraps
first.
The other way to do this is to spray on dye (such as water soluble
aniline dye) to color the wood before applying the polyurethane. Like
toners, dyes don't get absorbed into the wood so the color depth is
more consistent. You can get practically any color dye you can
imagine. Unfortunately, I think you really need spray equipment to do
it this way. If anybody knows otherwise, please speak up.
Given that you're building a permanent bar out of a pretty expensive
piece of lumber, I'd recommend spending $20 or so to get a good book on
finishing techniques, like Flexner's.
Josh
Hi Peter,
Suggest you ask your question at the site below. It is all about finishing. You
need to register but it does not generate any spam. Cheers, JG
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/phpBB2/portal.php
PVR wrote:
> I have a raw 12 ft x 15" bar top for my new media/wine room. I need to
> lightly stain and then finish this.
>
> I have not worked with white oak but only red oak. This absorbs the stain
> very strongly into the soft grain areas but hardly any into the hard areas.
> The result is very unattractive.
>
> After staining I will finish with a marine grade, solvent borne, clear, semi
> gloss (or satin) polyurethane.
>
> Does white oak stain like red oak? If so, what is the best method to obtain
> an EVEN stain on white oak? Also, is my approach for finishing the counter
> top OK? I don't want to use a non-marine urethane because of its age
> yellowing.
>
> Peter.
"PVR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a raw 12 ft x 15" bar top for my new media/wine room. I need to
>lightly stain and then finish this.
>
> I have not worked with white oak but only red oak. This absorbs the stain
> very strongly into the soft grain areas but hardly any into the hard
> areas. The result is very unattractive.
Reversal of the color pattern. Softer and formerly lighter in color comes
up dark. White oak is going to be the same, with those darker ray figure
splashes on quartered wood absorbing next to nothing, and becoming lighter
than the background.
You pretty much have to fume it or paint it (glaze) to have it look like it
did when you built it.
PVR wrote:
> Interesting question! Here's the answer.
>
> Run of the mill urethane coatings are based on aromatic diisocyanates
> such as TDI, MDI etc. In coatings many types of aromaticity lead to
> various kinds of performance problems, including UV induced
> yellowing. In order to obtain a urethane coating which does not
> yellow an aliphatic diisocynate (IPDI, HDI etc) must be used in the
> synthesis of the binder.
>
> There seems to be some confusion in the use of the terms "solvent
> borne" and "oil based." "Solvent borne" means that the binder and
> subsequent coating is carried in solvent rather than water or even
> with no diluent at all. "Oil based"means the binder is formulated
> including a vegetable oil such as soya, linseed tung, etc. However,
> urethanes can easily be formulated without oils and carried in
> solvent, water or solventless (powder coatings, etc). Many of these
> are the two component catalyzed types or even ambient moisture cured.
>
> Some oils, those that contain much linoleic or linolenic acids
> (linseed oil) will confer severe yellowing properties under various
> conditions. Oils which contain minor amounts of these acids (Soya)
> will deliver acceptable yellowing properties.
>
> Most if not all these variables can be formulated into individual
> coatings independently of each other.
>
> Well, that is why I think a marine urethane coating can be very
> resistant to yellowing.
>
> Sorry for the length of this reply; I was carried away.
NP, it was interesting. However, just because something is labled
"marine" doesn't mean it lacks linseed oil. "Marine" has come to be
sort of a marketing tool to convey an impression of superiority. Same
with "spar"...
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Agreed. You have to read the label and if necessary call the manufacturer.
Peter.
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BZGGf.150237$7l4.80616@trnddc05...
> PVR wrote:
>> Interesting question! Here's the answer.
>>
>> Run of the mill urethane coatings are based on aromatic diisocyanates
>> such as TDI, MDI etc. In coatings many types of aromaticity lead to
>> various kinds of performance problems, including UV induced
>> yellowing. In order to obtain a urethane coating which does not
>> yellow an aliphatic diisocynate (IPDI, HDI etc) must be used in the
>> synthesis of the binder.
>>
>> There seems to be some confusion in the use of the terms "solvent
>> borne" and "oil based." "Solvent borne" means that the binder and
>> subsequent coating is carried in solvent rather than water or even
>> with no diluent at all. "Oil based"means the binder is formulated
>> including a vegetable oil such as soya, linseed tung, etc. However,
>> urethanes can easily be formulated without oils and carried in
>> solvent, water or solventless (powder coatings, etc). Many of these
>> are the two component catalyzed types or even ambient moisture cured.
>>
>> Some oils, those that contain much linoleic or linolenic acids
>> (linseed oil) will confer severe yellowing properties under various
>> conditions. Oils which contain minor amounts of these acids (Soya)
>> will deliver acceptable yellowing properties.
>>
>> Most if not all these variables can be formulated into individual
>> coatings independently of each other.
>>
>> Well, that is why I think a marine urethane coating can be very
>> resistant to yellowing.
>>
>> Sorry for the length of this reply; I was carried away.
>
> NP, it was interesting. However, just because something is labled
> "marine" doesn't mean it lacks linseed oil. "Marine" has come to be
> sort of a marketing tool to convey an impression of superiority. Same
> with "spar"...
>
> --
> dadiOH
> ____________________________
>
> dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
> ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
> LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
> Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
>
>
Interesting question! Here's the answer.
Run of the mill urethane coatings are based on aromatic diisocyanates such
as TDI, MDI etc. In coatings many types of aromaticity lead to various kinds
of performance problems, including UV induced yellowing. In order to obtain
a urethane coating which does not yellow an aliphatic diisocynate (IPDI, HDI
etc) must be used in the synthesis of the binder.
There seems to be some confusion in the use of the terms "solvent borne" and
"oil based." "Solvent borne" means that the binder and subsequent coating is
carried in solvent rather than water or even with no diluent at all. "Oil
based"means the binder is formulated including a vegetable oil such as soya,
linseed tung, etc. However, urethanes can easily be formulated without oils
and carried in solvent, water or solventless (powder coatings, etc). Many of
these are the two component catalyzed types or even ambient moisture cured.
Some oils, those that contain much linoleic or linolenic acids (linseed oil)
will confer severe yellowing properties under various conditions. Oils which
contain minor amounts of these acids (Soya) will deliver acceptable
yellowing properties.
Most if not all these variables can be formulated into individual coatings
independently of each other.
Well, that is why I think a marine urethane coating can be very resistant to
yellowing.
Sorry for the length of this reply; I was carried away.
Peter.
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OznGf.10436$In4.4552@trnddc06...
> PVR wrote:
>
>> I don't want to use a non-marine urethane
>> because of its age yellowing.
>
> What makes you think "marine" oil based polyurethane doesn't yellow? If
> you don't want yellowing use water poly.
>
>
> --
> dadiOH
> ____________________________
>
> dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
> ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
> LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
> Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
>
>
Hi Rich.
Yes I would be very interested to see your pics. Your approach sounds great.
"Rich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:hFsGf.4402$_I4.3566@trndny02...
> I'm using a dye water based stain. Its great because I can mix it as
> strong or weak as I wish. I used transtint dark vintage maple with a very
> weak solution (about 1/2oz per quart of alcohol. You can use water but the
> alcohol prevents further grain raising.) Then I lightly sanded with 320
> grit by hand to knock back the color a bit more. I then applied 6 coats of
> General finishes wiping satin urethane. I experimented with shellac sealer
> first but there was no discernable difference in the end product so did
> away with the sealer. The result was magnificent. I'll post pics if your
> interested.
> Rich
>
> "PVR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I have a raw 12 ft x 15" bar top for my new media/wine room. I need to
>>lightly stain and then finish this.
>>
>> I have not worked with white oak but only red oak. This absorbs the stain
>> very strongly into the soft grain areas but hardly any into the hard
>> areas. The result is very unattractive.
>>
>> After staining I will finish with a marine grade, solvent borne, clear,
>> semi gloss (or satin) polyurethane.
>>
>> Does white oak stain like red oak? If so, what is the best method to
>> obtain an EVEN stain on white oak? Also, is my approach for finishing the
>> counter top OK? I don't want to use a non-marine urethane because of its
>> age yellowing.
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>
>
PVR wrote:
> I don't want to use a non-marine urethane
> because of its age yellowing.
What makes you think "marine" oil based polyurethane doesn't yellow? If
you don't want yellowing use water poly.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
I'm using a dye water based stain. Its great because I can mix it as strong
or weak as I wish. I used transtint dark vintage maple with a very weak
solution (about 1/2oz per quart of alcohol. You can use water but the
alcohol prevents further grain raising.) Then I lightly sanded with 320 grit
by hand to knock back the color a bit more. I then applied 6 coats of
General finishes wiping satin urethane. I experimented with shellac sealer
first but there was no discernable difference in the end product so did away
with the sealer. The result was magnificent. I'll post pics if your
interested.
Rich
"PVR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a raw 12 ft x 15" bar top for my new media/wine room. I need to
>lightly stain and then finish this.
>
> I have not worked with white oak but only red oak. This absorbs the stain
> very strongly into the soft grain areas but hardly any into the hard
> areas. The result is very unattractive.
>
> After staining I will finish with a marine grade, solvent borne, clear,
> semi gloss (or satin) polyurethane.
>
> Does white oak stain like red oak? If so, what is the best method to
> obtain an EVEN stain on white oak? Also, is my approach for finishing the
> counter top OK? I don't want to use a non-marine urethane because of its
> age yellowing.
>
> Peter.
>
Peter,
Sorry for taking so long. Something is wrong with my Verizon email... got to
work on it when I get the time.
Pics are posted at http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/harrisfam1988/my_photos
As far as your question on the wiping varnish from your email, I get mine
from Woodcraft. They are on the net too. I'm sure There are more places that
carry General Finishes products though.
Rich
"PVR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Rich.
>
> Yes I would be very interested to see your pics. Your approach sounds
> great.
>
>
> "Rich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:hFsGf.4402$_I4.3566@trndny02...
>> I'm using a dye water based stain. Its great because I can mix it as
>> strong or weak as I wish. I used transtint dark vintage maple with a very
>> weak solution (about 1/2oz per quart of alcohol. You can use water but
>> the alcohol prevents further grain raising.) Then I lightly sanded with
>> 320 grit by hand to knock back the color a bit more. I then applied 6
>> coats of General finishes wiping satin urethane. I experimented with
>> shellac sealer first but there was no discernable difference in the end
>> product so did away with the sealer. The result was magnificent. I'll
>> post pics if your interested.
>> Rich
>>
>> "PVR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>I have a raw 12 ft x 15" bar top for my new media/wine room. I need to
>>>lightly stain and then finish this.
>>>
>>> I have not worked with white oak but only red oak. This absorbs the
>>> stain very strongly into the soft grain areas but hardly any into the
>>> hard areas. The result is very unattractive.
>>>
>>> After staining I will finish with a marine grade, solvent borne, clear,
>>> semi gloss (or satin) polyurethane.
>>>
>>> Does white oak stain like red oak? If so, what is the best method to
>>> obtain an EVEN stain on white oak? Also, is my approach for finishing
>>> the counter top OK? I don't want to use a non-marine urethane because
>>> of its age yellowing.
>>>
>>> Peter.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>