On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:01:54 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I demoted myself from
>"Finishmaster" to "village idiot".
I know the demotion! <G>
>
>>but the data sheet does warn
>> against building too thick of a dry film.
>
>I don't understand. In application, or in the final product. And
>which product is giving you this warning?
Top of page 2, 5 mils total dry film thickness:
<http://www.mlcampbell.com/secured/pisheets/C599%20-%20ULTRASTAR%2010-18-05.pdf>
>Oh man... I like fast... I like off the gun finish... this could be
>cool. How many coats of the mix are you putting on to get where you
>want to go? I always try for a 3 - 4 mil cured finish no matter what
>I am applying, so knowing you probably do the same, how many coats
>does this take?
I've been doing 2 coats, plus a sealer coat of Seal Coat, BIN, or
Ultrastar Sanding Sealer.
>If using multiple coats, does it still burn in
>correctly with the latex solids in place? Do you get lap lines?
That's a really good question, as I haven't rubbed it much. It do
scuff with 400, per the instructions, and haven't noticed witness
lines. It should be noted that I haven't done dark colors. I would
imagine any witness lines would be easily covered by the next coat,
and possibly not be visible with the colors I've tried.
Black would be the ultimate test, but I can buy black lacquer pre
made, so I don't know if I'd bother.
>It would be interesting to see. Sadly, I think the trends in our
>litigious society seem to preclude using your head for anything other
>than a hat rack.
My melon has many additional uses! The back and forehead make a great
Rockwell hardness gauge for cast iron (I pass out ~ RC42... <G>), the
face is a mountain bike stopping device, and the top is something to
wedge between my body and the roof of the airplane in turbulence!
>I have talked to a couple of vendors about writing
>them a piece on extending the use of their products, and they were NOT
>interested in the slightest. They had their products conforming to
>their own MSDS, and they were insured for that specific product. They
>didn't want to encourage anyone to experiment or try anything that
>they sanctioned, even if it was safe. Their attorneys allowed that
>their products were formulated for a specific use as mixed, and ANY
>deviation voided any warranties of the product as the mix was changed
>making it a new product. And they would not be responsible for the
>use of an altered or "new" product in any way.
>
>And as you know, mixing together different things can change the
>chemical mixes and can generate (more) harmful gases, or cause
>different reactions with the resins, including premature aging of the
>cured product, long term product failure, etc. After listening to a
>lot of that, I had enough of that I let it go. I wasn't going for a
>Pulitzer.
Par for the course...
>It would be interesting to see if you could get one of the mags to
>bite. Hey - I'd buy it!
Most of the magazines don't seem to have the same legal staff as the
product manufacturers, at least not YET! Think about what we've seen
recently:
- One suggested denatured alcohol added to WB polyurethane
- Another had a blog about jointing with gloves and no push blocks
- Many of the finishing articles suggest experimentation with
colorants
- People still describe climb cutting with routers, stopped table saw
cuts, and scary taper jigs
- People still write about ammonia fuming
On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:45:43 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 28, 5:30 pm, "Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:30:48 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >Is there a forum for users of Fuji HVLP systems that anyone knows of?
>>
>> I have a bunch of time with one.
>>
>> Questions?
>
>I'm looking for info on spraying latex primer. I've actually got a
>gallon of Zinsser BIN (blue can) water based primer that I'd like to
>use.
Unfortunately, I don't use that specific product. I prefer Seal Coat
under clear finishes and shellac based BIN under colors.
What you have is not BIN, it's 1-2-3.
Going to the web, I find the 1-2-3 Data Sheet:
<http://www.zinnser.com/PDF/TDB/BE_123.pdf>
I also find the BIN data sheet:
<http://www.zinnser.com/PDF/TDB/BIN.pdf>
I spray BIN, and commercial water based lacquers and their sealers,
right from the can, with a 4 stage Fuji. With the pressurized suction
cup (bottom mount) or pressure pot, I use a #3 setup, with a
non-pressurized gravity feed cup, I go up to the #4.
Using the info in the PDF's above, I'd start up a needle with 1-2-3.
The data sheet also allows 10 oz. water per gallon, so if a #4 with
the suction cup doesn't get me there, I'd thin to the recommended
limit before going to the #5.
>Rather than toy around a bunch with different thinning ratios,
>I'm hoping someone can provide me with a recipe or at least point me
>in the right direction. I've only got the needle that came with it,
>but I'll buy whatever I need. I think I read something about thinning
>with 10% water and 10% Floetrol, but I don't know what tip that was
>with.
I'd probably spray some vertical cardboard. I'd then go up or down
from there based on the run / drip pattern. You can change setups in
under a minute, so it's not like you'll waste tons of time.
If you don't own the equipment yet, I suggest posing your question to
this guy: <http://www.phelpsrefinishing.com/fuji.html> He's a
retired refinisher with years of experience, who now sells Fuji
equipment.
Roger can put together a suitable kit. I would suggest buying at
least the #3,4, and 5 setups if you plan on using the tool for various
finishes.
I avoid adding anything to water based products, unless I really have
to, and the 1-2-3 data sheet doesn't mention Floetrol or flow
additives.
>On a somewhat related note, does anyone know of a good latex paint
>that dries HARD?
I use tinted water base lacquer when I want a hard and durable
surface, not latex paint.
Usually, I've had the paint store tint the lacquer to a color chip,
but I've been experimenting with adding 30% latex paint to 70% ML
Campbell Ultrastar WB lacquer, no other additives required, with
excellent results.
Once you have the gear, you can think beyond latex to a whole world of
fantastic materials. Latex is great with a roller, but there are
better ways to spray when the choice is yours.
On Mar 29, 7:36 am, "Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"
<[email protected]> wrote:
SNIP
> Usually, I've had the paint store tint the lacquer to a color chip,
> but I've been experimenting with adding 30% latex paint to 70% ML
> Campbell Ultrastar WB lacquer, no other additives required, with
> excellent results.
I think that is the coolest thing. I am almost tempted to buy a quart
of each to try it out just to see for myself what it would look like.
I have been intrigues by that ever since you posted a while back about
the guy that painted his mountain bike with that mix.
What type of latex are you mixing with lacquer? High solids enamels
or flats? Any particular sheen? What brand?
Does it make the lacquer translucent or opaque?
Are you putting a clear top coat on after sealing, or are you using
this mix as a fast dry paint? And speaking of that aspect, how does
that affect drying/recoat times? I would guess the times would be
much less than latex but more than the MLC alone.
Does it give you an "off the gun" piano colored gloss like a colored
lacquer? How many coats do you apply to achieve the finished product?
Seriously inquiring minds over here...
Robert
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:30:48 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Is there a forum for users of Fuji HVLP systems that anyone knows of?
I have a bunch of time with one.
Questions?
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 14:22:06 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>One day, just for myself if for no other reason than to try I need to
>make something I can coat with PianoLac. I understand it isn't for
>the faint hearted, but on the other hand, what a finish. Check it
>out:
>
>http://www.pianolac.com/products/clear.html
>
>If you have a minute you might take a look at the other things on that
>site including their much heralded cream based pore filler. It is
>supposed to live up to the hype of the pore filler page, too. The
>make one sheen, gloss. And I think they only make one color, black.
>The other option is clear. That's it.
Nice! I've never heard of the stuff. Looks really interesting...
>Just goes to show that you can do anything you want as long as you can
>get away with it. But eventually, it WILL be time to pay the piper.
>Oh yeah, since the fingers were removed with a dado blade, there was
>no workable reattachment.
>
>Nasty.
Yuck!
Physics is like casino gambling, the house always eventually wins.
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:d82ffdf0-0965-40e9-a444-bfc814d20e3d@e67g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 28, 5:30 pm, "Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:30:48 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Is there a forum for users of Fuji HVLP systems that anyone knows of?
>
> I have a bunch of time with one.
>
> Questions?
>I'm looking for info on spraying latex primer. I've actually got a
>gallon of Zinsser BIN (blue can) water based primer that I'd like to
>use. Rather than toy around a bunch with different thinning ratios,
>I'm hoping someone can provide me with a recipe or at least point me
>in the right direction. I've only got the needle that came with it,
>but I'll buy whatever I need. I think I read something about thinning
>with 10% water and 10% Floetrol, but I don't know what tip that was
>with. IAE, any help would be appreciated.
>On a somewhat related note, does anyone know of a good latex paint
>that dries HARD? I'd like something that books won't stick to when
>they sit for a while. Thanks.
JP
I have the Fuji Q4 Pro. It comes with a .055 aircap set. I sprayed this
set of bookcases with it.
http://tinyurl.com/32f3v9
I used Glidden Endurance semi-gloss, exterior, 100% acrylic. I thinned with
Wagner "Paint Easy" according to directions (4 oz per quart.) (I used an
oil based primer. ) For thinning of the BIN primer you'll probably have to
experiment a little.
I let the cases set for 1 week before allowing books to be loaded.
The owner said he is very pleased with the result.
Max
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a5766c14-1ee5-417f-900b-3f3b9d0b77c9@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Is there a forum for users of Fuji HVLP systems that anyone knows of?
> Thanks.
>
> JP
I'm not a great fan of their's, but Sawmill Creek has a forum on finishing.
I bet you can find something there.
On Mar 29, 12:37 pm, "Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Top of page 2, 5 mils total dry film thickness:
> <http://www.mlcampbell.com/secured/pisheets/C599%20-%20ULTRASTAR%2010-...>
Got it. So the same as just about everything else these days.
I have to say though, reading through those specs I was surprised at
the amount of solids in that stuff. Impressive.
> Black would be the ultimate test, but I can buy black lacquer pre
> made, so I don't know if I'd bother.
One day, just for myself if for no other reason than to try I need to
make something I can coat with PianoLac. I understand it isn't for
the faint hearted, but on the other hand, what a finish. Check it
out:
http://www.pianolac.com/products/clear.html
If you have a minute you might take a look at the other things on that
site including their much heralded cream based pore filler. It is
supposed to live up to the hype of the pore filler page, too. The
make one sheen, gloss. And I think they only make one color, black.
The other option is clear. That's it.
But to be really hard, have 100% burn in ( 100%?!?! ) , be UV
resistant, print resistant, and on and on... how could all of that be
true? I don't know, but they are still small enough (like KK) to be
able to answer your questions directly on the phone.
> >It would be interesting to see. Sadly, I think the trends in our
> >litigious society seem to preclude using your head for anything other
> >than a hat rack.
>
> My melon has many additional uses! The back and forehead make a great
> Rockwell hardness gauge for cast iron (I pass out ~ RC42... <G>), the
> face is a mountain bike stopping device, and the top is something to
> wedge between my body and the roof of the airplane in turbulence!
LMAO! I hadn't thought of RC testing. I am wondering if I could pick
up a little extra dough as a metal tester myself. (In my mind I am
seeing Bugs Bunny whacking a howitzer shell with a mallet, and if it
doesn't go off he writes "DUD" on the case)
> Most of the magazines don't seem to have the same legal staff as the
> product manufacturers, at least not YET! Think about what we've seen
> recently:
That could be a valid point.
One of the most profoundly stooopid things I have seen in a long time
showed up the the other day on a ww forum. Someone cut off a few
digits on a tablesaw because....
wait for it...
he was trying to do a pocket cut on his saw with dado blade.
Apparently the saw grabbed the piece of wood and shot it off the table
and he fell forward onto the blade. Now I don't think he deserved to
lose any fingers for a momentary lapse of reason, but he said he had
done that particular cut for years and never thought anything of it.
Huh?
Just goes to show that you can do anything you want as long as you can
get away with it. But eventually, it WILL be time to pay the piper.
Oh yeah, since the fingers were removed with a dado blade, there was
no workable reattachment.
Nasty.
Robert
On Mar 28, 5:30=A0pm, "Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:30:48 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Is there a forum for users of Fuji HVLP systems that anyone knows of?
>
> I have a bunch of time with one.
>
> Questions?
I'm looking for info on spraying latex primer. I've actually got a
gallon of Zinsser BIN (blue can) water based primer that I'd like to
use. Rather than toy around a bunch with different thinning ratios,
I'm hoping someone can provide me with a recipe or at least point me
in the right direction. I've only got the needle that came with it,
but I'll buy whatever I need. I think I read something about thinning
with 10% water and 10% Floetrol, but I don't know what tip that was
with. IAE, any help would be appreciated.
On a somewhat related note, does anyone know of a good latex paint
that dries HARD? I'd like something that books won't stick to when
they sit for a while. Thanks.
JP
On Mar 29, 10:38 am, "Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Careful! The mountain bike was a mix of Solar Lux and gloss NC
> solvent lacquer, not WB.
I think it was just mentioned in the same thread.
> Be aware that I might be getting lucky. P&L and MLC are the same
> parent company, so compatible chemistry might be involved.
> Or, maybe not... <G>
>
> Either way, more testing is in order...
In these days of acquistion, it is difficult to tell who from what.
And I must say that across the board, I am astonished at how little
the tech support guys, the vendor reps, etc. know about the usability
and flexibility of their products. And sadly, it isn't that they are
idiots, they simply don't know.
I have one good rep that sells Coronado, but the largest Coronado
franchise in the city just failed. This guy has been selling these
products for years and knows not only his products, but his
competitors as well. If he doesn't have what I need he will tell me
"contact so and so and ask him for this product". We had a ball when
he introduced me to his high resin 15 minute dry enamel and his super
hard fast dry enamel.
He was so happy to have someone that was trying out the product he
sent me a case of gallons to play with.
But I digress.
More testing is what WE have to do now, and I don't think that is a
good thing. I think the manufacturers should supply enough
information to learn different applications of their products, and
leave it to us to take it as far as we want. Now it seems to be
"here's the gallon you ordered - does the product number match?"
So in regards to all of that, I am appreciative of all the detailed
and accurate information you post.
> >Are you putting a clear top coat on after sealing, or are you using
> >this mix as a fast dry paint?
> No clear top coats so far. The final sheen is identical to the
> version of clear used, but it looks "deeper", like it _is_ clear
> coated, so I haven't seen the need for additional top coats. More
> clear might be useful in a gloss look
I was wondering about that as I have LITERALLY burned the paint off
projects before when top coating. Granted, it was all solvent based
stuff, but with all the nasties in MLC (ammonia, formaldehyde, etc.) I
don't know that it would be too much different.
I knew not to spray my "hot" conversion lacquer (KK) on latex, but I
didn't realized that I could make the same mess over hard dry
enamels. Had a low gloss finish on a metal door; clients says - hey,
I want this to match my glossy trims so it needs to be shiny. No
problem says "Ffinishmaster", I will shoot a shiny coat on top of
this, and the sheen will match. (Color was not an issue). I managed
to lift the damn finish right off the door. I have had strippers that
didn't work that well as it literally bubbled through two layers.
I thought the finish was dry and then the blisters came.
The NC/CL bit into the finish and when it contracted, it pulled the
finish with it, and that was a lesson learned for me. After sanding
the door down to almost bare metal, I demoted myself from
"Finishmaster" to "village idiot". I should have known better. And
the mix did eventually dry. And it dried HARD.
A few years ago as a test, I put clear polyurethane over latex. I
thought it was working well until it made mush out of the latex. I
kinda of dissolved, but didn't bubble off as when that stroke of
genius hit me above. The finish went away for a different reason.
The regular dry polyurethane sat on the latex so long it penetrated,
then just dissolved the paint.
Now I don't top coat/seal coat anything unless it is with the SAME
type product or material. Period.
That's why the question of top coating. No luck here.
>but the data sheet does warn
> against building too thick of a dry film.
I don't understand. In application, or in the final product. And
which product is giving you this warning?
> >And speaking of that aspect, how does
> >that affect drying/recoat times? I would guess the times would be
> >much less than latex but more than the MLC alone.
> So far, without genuine testing vs. a standard in the same atmosphere,
> I see the pigmented mix drying in about the same time as the clear
> version. At least there was no obvious change...
Oh man... I like fast... I like off the gun finish... this could be
cool. How many coats of the mix are you putting on to get where you
want to go? I always try for a 3 - 4 mil cured finish no matter what
I am applying, so knowing you probably do the same, how many coats
does this take? If using multiple coats, does it still burn in
correctly with the latex solids in place? Do you get lap lines?
> >Does it give you an "off the gun" piano colored gloss like a colored
> >lacquer?
>
> Haven't tried that yet, not willing to guess. It would be worth a
> shot. One of these days, I'm going to buy a gallon of gloss and give
> it a rip.
See above on the tragedies of top coating with clear sealer. Ouch.
> One of these days, I'll do a controlled side-by-side, and hit the
> samples with hot pots, scratches, foods, and chemicals. If I get
> around to doing it, I'll probably offer it to the mags first, but then
> again, someone else may get it out there before I do.
It would be interesting to see. Sadly, I think the trends in our
litigious society seem to preclude using your head for anything other
than a hat rack. I have talked to a couple of vendors about writing
them a piece on extending the use of their products, and they were NOT
interested in the slightest. They had their products conforming to
their own MSDS, and they were insured for that specific product. They
didn't want to encourage anyone to experiment or try anything that
they sanctioned, even if it was safe. Their attorneys allowed that
their products were formulated for a specific use as mixed, and ANY
deviation voided any warranties of the product as the mix was changed
making it a new product. And they would not be responsible for the
use of an altered or "new" product in any way.
And as you know, mixing together different things can change the
chemical mixes and can generate (more) harmful gases, or cause
different reactions with the resins, including premature aging of the
cured product, long term product failure, etc. After listening to a
lot of that, I had enough of that I let it go. I wasn't going for a
Pulitzer.
If you will notice now, most of the publications might suggest
thinning, but hat's about it. I found out many years ago that if
tinting and mixing were not done in house by the vendor, your warranty
would be void. That includes putting my old pal Solar Lux in
products. You can put lacquer OVER Solar Lux and maintain your
warranty. But you cannot put it IN and do the same.
It would be interesting to see if you could get one of the mags to
bite. Hey - I'd buy it!
Robert
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:42:07 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 29, 7:36 am, "Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>SNIP
>
>> Usually, I've had the paint store tint the lacquer to a color chip,
>> but I've been experimenting with adding 30% latex paint to 70% ML
>> Campbell Ultrastar WB lacquer, no other additives required, with
>> excellent results.
>
>I think that is the coolest thing. I am almost tempted to buy a quart
>of each to try it out just to see for myself what it would look like.
>I have been intrigues by that ever since you posted a while back about
>the guy that painted his mountain bike with that mix.
Careful! The mountain bike was a mix of Solar Lux and gloss NC
solvent lacquer, not WB.
>What type of latex are you mixing with lacquer? High solids enamels
>or flats? Any particular sheen? What brand?
I've been using Pratt & Lambert's best quality latex, eggshell & flat
sheens. The WB lacquer is MLC Ultrastar in semi-gloss and dull. I
have not tried gloss with the mix, as I don't have any gloss
Ultrastar.
Be aware that I might be getting lucky. P&L and MLC are the same
parent company, so compatible chemistry might be involved.
Or, maybe not... <G>
Either way, more testing is in order...
>Does it make the lacquer translucent or opaque?
Quite opaque. With an antique white shade P&L calls "Downy Gray", I
got one coat color coverage on dark brown hardboard and red oak, with
a Critter. Both materials were pre-sealed and scuffed with Seal Coat.
I've also tried other whites and a "steely / colonial blue" shade
that I can't remember the real name of.
I'm sure reds, oranges, and yellows might not cover as well, but I
haven't tried them yet.
I haven't had time to try less paint to see if the translucence
increases. I suspect it will, making the worn or weathered edge look
possible.
>Are you putting a clear top coat on after sealing, or are you using
>this mix as a fast dry paint?
No clear top coats so far. The final sheen is identical to the
version of clear used, but it looks "deeper", like it _is_ clear
coated, so I haven't seen the need for additional top coats. More
clear might be useful in a gloss look, but the data sheet does warn
against building too thick of a dry film.
>And speaking of that aspect, how does
>that affect drying/recoat times? I would guess the times would be
>much less than latex but more than the MLC alone.
So far, without genuine testing vs. a standard in the same atmosphere,
I see the pigmented mix drying in about the same time as the clear
version. At least there was no obvious change...
>Does it give you an "off the gun" piano colored gloss like a colored
>lacquer?
Haven't tried that yet, not willing to guess. It would be worth a
shot. One of these days, I'm going to buy a gallon of gloss and give
it a rip.
One downside to WB is the lack of a flow coating option.
One of these days, I'll do a controlled side-by-side, and hit the
samples with hot pots, scratches, foods, and chemicals. If I get
around to doing it, I'll probably offer it to the mags first, but then
again, someone else may get it out there before I do.