We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the winter,
and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the Rosegarden project
anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can bring to the table, and
the rather involved nature of the outstanding bugs.
I'm looking for something to distract me until spring, and a recent thread
about using a cutlist program got me to thinking...
So let's think about this... I'm not terribly gifted, but QT/KDE isn't
rocket science. I could probably knock out a basic framework in a couple
of months. Especially if I use QT Designer to prototype and machine code
the GUI elements. I usually don't, but I've been thinking how much easier
it would be if I did. (Three weeks for one fscking dialog box. Gack! I'm
not eager to do that again!)
I'm a mathematical retard (seriously, a total brain damaged how did he get a
college degree retard), and I haven't done any sort of graphic work
(drawing lines, boxes, that sort of hands on, computer-calculated vector
thing) since Turbo Basic. I can knock out a GUI framework for the thing,
but I will need real help with the math and graphics to make the thing
perform a useful function. I'm very weak on OOP design too. Getting
better, but I still have a fundamentally procedural mindset to trip over.
It would help if I knew what a cutlist program is supposed to look like too.
I don't own any copies of Windows, so even if there's a free one or a demo
out there, it doesn't do me much good. (I got rid of Wine a long time ago,
and am not particularly interested in fooling with it. It never worked
worth a damn anyway.)
So, we all know there are about a half million projects out there just
languishing in vapor land, with bold promises of features to come last
updated in 1999. The chances of our getting this off the ground and
turning out something useful are very slim. But it *could* happen.
If we have a user base for this, it will likely be centered right here on
the Wreck. Woodworking Linux users are a pretty specialized subset of both
the woodworking and computer using breeds. If there's any interest to be
drummed up, much of it will likely be right here.
So how about it? If this sounds like something you want to have, speak up.
If you want to hack on it too, speak up loudly. If you're a Linux hacking
god and my meager skills would just stand in your way, then speak up very
loudly. I'm much better at testing/debugging and writing docs than I am at
coding. I only open a source file out of necessity, because no one else is
getting around to whatever needs doing fast enough to suit me, and about
half the time I don't get it fixed before someone with real skill gets a
chance to take a crack at it.
(If you think "hacker" means someone who breaks into computer systems
illegally, you probably have no idea what the hell I was just talking about
anyway. Fear not, gentle Wrecker, there is no evil conspiracy afoot here.
We're talking about creating a cutlist program to run on our operating
system. Nothing more insidious than that, I assure you.)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:02:43 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
> LP wrote:
>
>> I dont know what the linux IRC client is called, but I do know there's
>> one out there. If you can locate it, just point it to the AccessIRC
>> network, and join the channel #woodworking.
>
> It's called KSirc (IRC Client) I haven't used it only because I don't do
> IRC. But maybe that would be a great resource.
>
xchat is another Linux IRC client.
A start on this project that doesn't require any coding skills would be to
write a requirements document, followed by a design document.
-Doug
In article <[email protected]>,
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:37:46 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> Maybe have some standard sizes as selectable inputs (like standard
>> >> melamine, baltic birch (half sheets), standard ply.
>> >
>> >With a little more though on my part, preferred/non-preferred orientation
>> >should be an attribute of the material - width/length order can be
>> >interchanged for efficiency as long as the rule of no stop cuts is
>> >preserved.
>>
>> I'll suggest that so-called "stop cuts" are *not* a problem _IF_ the software
>> specifies the order of the cuts.
>>
>>
>
> Is the software going to specify how you're going to shut off the
>Tablesaw and remove the stop-cut piece without damage to the piece or
>yourself?
>
> The thought of a stop-cut on a full or substantial portion of a sheet
>of plywood seems a bit problematic; but then maybe it's just me.
The _original_ reference to 'stop cuts' expressly stated that you did
all the rips first, then cross-cut.
If you have a situation such as:
A B
+---------------+--------+-------+
| | | |
| (1) | (4) | (6) |
| | | |
| | +-------+ C
D +---------------+ | (7) |
| +--------+-------+ E
| (2) | (5) |
| | |
+---------------+--------------+-+ F
| |X|
| |X|
| (3) |X|
| |X|
+------------------------------+-+
G
If you make the cuts in the order F-G-A-D-E-B-C, you never actually deal with
the 'having to turn the saw off and extract the stop-cut piece'. EVEN THOUGH
most of the rips do not go the full length of the raw material.
Laying out the above to strictly comply with 'rip, then cross-cut', takes 2
sheets of material, and results in 50+% waste.
The *only* time a stop-cut is indicated is when you _need_ an 'L-shaped' piece;
and in that situation, it is -- to the best of _my_ knowledge -- *unavoidable*.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:37:46 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Maybe have some standard sizes as selectable inputs (like standard
> >> melamine, baltic birch (half sheets), standard ply.
> >
> >With a little more though on my part, preferred/non-preferred orientation
> >should be an attribute of the material - width/length order can be
> >interchanged for efficiency as long as the rule of no stop cuts is
> >preserved.
>
> I'll suggest that so-called "stop cuts" are *not* a problem _IF_ the software
> specifies the order of the cuts.
>
>
Is the software going to specify how you're going to shut off the
Tablesaw and remove the stop-cut piece without damage to the piece or
yourself?
The thought of a stop-cut on a full or substantial portion of a sheet
of plywood seems a bit problematic; but then maybe it's just me.
> >
>
As a professional software designer, I've been following this thread
with some interest, to see where it goes. Although I already have
CutList Plus, and it more than suits my needs, it would be nice to have
a Linux native application as well.
Although Linux is my preferred environment, I'm not a Windows basher. In
fact, I have two nearly identical computers, 1 running Linux, 1 running
Windows. My biggest gripe with Windows is that I don't like the level of
integration between the OS and the applications. IMO, it is this level
of integration that has lead to all the security problems, and it is
what enables an application to crash the entire system. I want my OS to
be an OS, no more, no less.
I've been reading all the "requirements" lists that have been posted,
and I shake my head. Unless someone steps up and says, "ENOUGH", this
project will be killed by feature bloat before the first line of code is
written. Now, you could say that this is just brainstorming, and that's
fine, as long as someone steps up and says so. But, at some point, a
small group of people needs to gather all these suggested features, and
whittle it down to the absolute essentials for an initial release. This
is a tough thing to do, and there will no doubt be disagreements about
what is essential, and what isn't.
I've seen too many first release projects killed by feature creep. I've
even been involved in one where all the senior designers (including
myself) wanted to build a Chevy and push it out the door, but the
architects kept convincing the powers that be, that a Cadillac was
required. The project was killed because we were way late, over budget,
and missed the market window. If we kept to the Chevy, it would have met
the customer's needs (if not their perceived requirements), and we would
have been first to the market.
Just thought I would throw that out there, to kind of reel this thing
back in a little.
...Mike
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:21:54 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
>
> > Doug Winterburn wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:02:43 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
... snip
> This ain't a requirements doc, but here's a start at a list of
> requirements:
>
> - should work with sheetgoods and other wood products of various type and
> sizes
Maybe have some standard sizes as selectable inputs (like standard
melamine, baltic birch (half sheets), standard ply.
> - should take as input part#/material/thickness/width/length in a common
> order. This is necessary for proper grain orientation, even with
> sheetgoods.
Perhaps with an option to turn off orientation in order to allow more
efficient selection for sheet goods where orientation is not important.
i.e. melamine
Silvan wrote:
> We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the winter,
> and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the Rosegarden project
> anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can bring to the table, and
> the rather involved nature of the outstanding bugs.
>
I am, unfortunately, not available to help code this, but some ideas that
may help:
- Separate the logic of the program from it's GUI presentation. That
allows you to start out without a GUI and have it just spit out
textual descriptions of the cuts initially until you have that part
of it under control. Then you can write the GUI piece last to
turn those descriptions into a visible cut picture. IOW,
make it _right_ then make it _pretty_.
- A _Very_ good and easy to maintain environment for this kind of
thing is the Python language with Tkinter GUI framework. The
nice thing about it that your program will run on Win32, Linux,
FreeBSD, and probably even Macs. I wrote a reasonably complex
program like this some time ago and was VERY happy with
environment: http://www.tundraware.com/Software/twander/
- Recognize that taking a list of desired cuts and fitting them
to a given sheet size (or sizes) is not some absolute mathematical
process. It requires a heuristic approach because these kinds of
problems are what are called "NP-Complete" - you cannot possibly
try every combination of fit to get an optimized cutting arrangement.
You need some general rules to help the program limit the number
of tries until you get one that is "good enough". You may want
to do some reaseach on this to see if anyone has done this
heurstic work in a way that could apply to your problem.
- This is not an inconsequential program, so be prepared to
spent some time with the design, especially of the layout
engine.
- Don't forget to factor in the kerf width :)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> BTW, I've been trying to install/build lignumCAD on RH9 with no joy (but
> haven't really gotten into the source yet). If it really does what is
> documented, this whole project could be a feature enhancement.
I've been looking at it just now, and I see what you mean. I'm not
motivated at the moment, but I'll grab the code in the morning and set
about dicking around with it. Looks like I *should* have most of the deps
already in line, and I'll just have to find them and diddle the files.
I'll definitely be too stupid to use it though. All I had to see was the
"3D" and that was enough to scare me away forever. :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
i have hacked linux for a while, but have no idea what a
'cutlist' prog is supposed to do. anybody care to post a
not-too-brief functional description?
is this supposed to handle non-rectilinear shapes also? from the
description for cutlistplus it looks like only len*wid needs to
be specified for the pieces...
irax.
I missed the beginning of the thread (short retention on newsserver), so this
might have been covered.
Has anyone talked with the developers of the existing programs (sheetlayout or curlistplus)
to see if they would be willing to port them to Linux?
Perhaps they'd do so for good debugging feedback. I've forgotten which one I have, but
I had found a bug that let one bypass the limits on project size. From a business standpoint,
fixing that bug would be worth some development effort.
--
Remove the . from mot.orola and the .splinter from
my email address to reply.
Jason Rziha
Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) writes:
> >
> >This will be a simple 'command-line' program; reads all inputs from files,and
> >produces another file as it's output.
> >
Put your inventory in XML or otherwise use XML for the intermediate
format. 90%
of your parsing and sorting work is already finished for you then.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> So let's think about this... I'm not terribly gifted, but QT/KDE isn't
> rocket science. I could probably knock out a basic framework in a couple
> of months.
You might want to consider writing the tool in "python."
http://www.python.org
Python is an object oriented, interpreted language that is supported
on a wide variety of platforms. Python is compatable with the Tk GUI
toolkit. Python is easy to learn, and comes with a huge library of
built in functions.
Python has a number of advantages for project like this. Python
source is easy to read and understand, there are a lot of very helpful
people in the python community, and more than a lot of other languages
it is easy to think about your problem instead of thinking about the
language.
The best part? When you are done with your program, it won't just be
for linux.
--Stan Graves
[email protected]
http://www.soundinmotiondj.com
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:43:19 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:
>We don't have a cutlist program.
Just another thought; if you and whoever need a way to discuss this
project in real time, feel free to use the #woodworking channel on
IRC.
I dont know what the linux IRC client is called, but I do know there's
one out there. If you can locate it, just point it to the AccessIRC
network, and join the channel #woodworking.
A ready-to-go windows client can be downloaded from
http://ww.wood-workers.com/users/chipsndust/
and there is some additional info about the channel/irc that might
also be helpful to you.
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:00:30 -0800, Bill wrote:
> Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the winter,
>> and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the Rosegarden project
>> anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can bring to the table, and
>> the rather involved nature of the outstanding bugs.
>>
> <snip>
>
> If you really want a cutlist program, why not install Wine
> (http://www.winehq.com) on your Linux system and get either
> CutlistPlus (http://www.cutlistplus.com/) or Sheet Layout
> (http://www.sheetlayout.com)? I realize neither one of those packages
> are free and by your email I can see that you're probably adverse to
> actually paying for software. Of course you could probably make a
> request to warez and get a copy for free. We wouldn't want a
> programmer to be able to make a living as a programmer now would we?
>
> -Bill
Bill, that you? How's things in Redmond?
-Doug
Steve Dunbar wrote:
> I did a Google search and found a number of links dealing with the
> "stock-cutting problem" or "2-D bin packing problem." This seems to be an
> active area of research. See, for instance,
> <http://circuits.cf.ac.uk/hopper/hopper.html#top>.
Wow, after reading a few lines of that, I think I should go find some place
to hide real quick like. :)
> fitting rectangles into a rectangular region of fixed width. This might be
> a good starting point. See <http://linpacker.tuxfamily.org/index.html>.
Very interesting. That bears looking at for sure!
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Jason Rziha wrote:
> Has anyone talked with the developers of the existing programs
> (sheetlayout or curlistplus) to see if they would be willing to port them
> to Linux?
No I haven't, and that's always worth a try. However, I've talked to a lot
of other developers about porting their stuff to Linux. I usually get the
same kind of warm response I used to get at job interviews. Carefully
stifled laughter until I'm on the other side of the door, then the sound of
the deadbolt slamming home. :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
EvoDawg wrote:
> Silvan count me in. But like you my computer skills are limited. I can
> probably do something in Qt3 but I will have to look into it again, I
> havent messed with code either for some time. I'm more into scripting at
> this point.
I *vastly* prefer scripting too, but some things have to be done the hard
way, I'm afraid. I hate GUI stuff, but QT/KDE is pretty easy to get the
hang of. If you know what you want to do, it's just a matter of grazing
the ample docs long enough to find the example code you need.
I'll think on this hard and long on my trip. I'm heading for Savannah, GA
tonight, back sometime around 24 hours from now.
If I think I can really do something, I'll go ahead and register a project
with SourceForge, so we can get a devel list (to get all this traffic off
the Wreck) and a CVS repository, then we can go from there. (If nothing
comes of it in the end, we won't be the only useless project on
SourceForge... :)
So, important things first, what should we call this thing? The first thing
popping into my mind is "Kutlist."
What, *exactly* should it do? KISS. Get something working, then make it
pretty. What's the minimum it needs to do in order to be useful?
I'll come back with my answer to that last question after I've had a day to
ponder it.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:37:46 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:21:54 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
>>>
>>> > Doug Winterburn wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:02:43 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
>> ... snip
>>> This ain't a requirements doc, but here's a start at a list of
>>> requirements:
>>>
>>> - should work with sheetgoods and other wood products of various type
>>> and sizes
>>
>> Maybe have some standard sizes as selectable inputs (like standard
>> melamine, baltic birch (half sheets), standard ply.
>>
>>> - should take as input part#/material/thickness/width/length in a
>>> common
>>> order. This is necessary for proper grain orientation, even with
>>> sheetgoods.
>>
>> Perhaps with an option to turn off orientation in order to allow more
>> efficient selection for sheet goods where orientation is not important.
>> i.e. melamine
>
> Good stuff!
>
> All we need now is a volunteer for the requirements doc, and after that,
> the design doc.
>
> I'm a coder and don't do "docs" ;-) But I know where to get templates and
> so forth...
>
> BTW, I've been trying to install/build lignumCAD on RH9 with no joy (but
> haven't really gotten into the source yet). If it really does what is
> documented, this whole project could be a feature enhancement.
>
> -Doug
LignumCAD worked well for me but I had to do some font thing that I don't
remember exactly what, I think it had something to do with X86config. I
know when I had trouble with it in the beginning the developers were very
easy to contact and get info from. It might be different today since it was
at least a year ago that I messed with it. But the idea of having something
built into LignumCAD would be a great idea. At least a suitable plug-in or
an import, export feature.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
> Bill wrote:
I don't get your posts, so I have to read you in reply.
>> Very good. You're not one of those "I hate all Microsoft products"
Well, I *am* actually, but I have *personal* reasons. It's my opinion, not
an absolute truth. I make my choices, you make yours. I'll help you with
Linux problems, and I can spend hours talking about why I like Linux better
than Windows, but I'm not going to berate you or anyone else for running
Windows. (Outhouse Excess, now, that's a different matter. I wish that
would just go away. I wouldn't touch that glop with a 10' pole back when I
was arguing that Linux was a "bunch of hacked together slapware" and
posting with Agent from Windows 95/98/ME. :)
>> previously, I think it's a better OS than Windows. The killer app for
>> Linux would be an integrated development environment much like Visual
>> Studio in Windows. Unfortunately something like that is difficult
Nah. Most people these days don't learn two lines of code in any language.
The *killer* app for Linux would be a really *excellent* game that's
exciting and different enough to get everyone's attention, and which *only*
runs on Linux. Not on Windows, not Macs, not on any of the consoles.
That'd get people's attention.
(Tux Racer need not apply. LOL!)
Mike Alexander wrote:
> lot of work in both environments, and I find Linux to be a much better,
> much more flexible, and much more powerful development environment than
> Windows by far. But, diversity is what makes the world so interesting.
The only development environment anybody ever needs is vim anyway. :)
> The other reason I prefer Linux is, it is much harder for a misbehaved
> app (which most apps under development are) to take down the system. In
> fact, I don't believe I have ever had the entire machine crash on me
> while developing in Linux. I definitely can't say the same for any
> flavour of Windows I've worked on (95, 98, NT, and 2K).
Yeah, you can say that again. Maybe a swap thrash fest from a bad memory
leak that brings the system to a speed that makes a snail look fast, but no
crashes. Of course kernel hackers can't say that, I'm sure. :)
Not like DOS/Windows. Hooo boy. I never even got anywhere in my attempts
to do GUI stuff on that platform. Every little goof and the whole system
would crash. Yeesh. Of course, we didn't have all these handy ready to
use classes for everything back then either, and it was a lot easier to do
something stupid, like write past the end of an array or whatever. (When I
finally figured out that the program in question was crashing because it
was executing its strings, that's when I hung it up, and hid in userland
for many, many years.)
> There are several other environments in Linux, but in the end, I almost
> always end up with vi, make and a command line based compiler, because
> that is where I am most comfortable.
Amen, bruddah... I've never managed to do anything with KDevelop. I end up
doing it all in vim. I feel like there might be an easier way, but when
I'm in the mood to do something, I'm in the mood to get it done, not to
screw around trying to learn some new fancy dongle to make life easier.
The one thing I really don't like about developing in Linuxdom is gdb
though. I miss the old Turbo Debugger. I find debugging in Linux to be
very difficult, and I tend to avoid it by sticking tons of couts into my
code.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Bill wrote:
> Very good. You're not one of those "I hate all Microsoft products"
> people. I can respect your reasons for using Linux. As I've stated
> previously, I think it's a better OS than Windows. The killer app for
> Linux would be an integrated development environment much like Visual
> Studio in Windows. Unfortunately something like that is difficult
> since the products to be integrated aren't controlled by a single
> entity. In that respect, Linux's strength is a weakness and vice-versa
> for Windows. Maybe they've gotten closer. I haven't done any real dev.
> in Linux for a couple years now.
It's funny. I'm a professional software designer, and my opinion about
development environments is exactly the opposite of yours. I have done a
lot of work in both environments, and I find Linux to be a much better,
much more flexible, and much more powerful development environment than
Windows by far. But, diversity is what makes the world so interesting.
I'll give you that Visual Studio is a nice do-it-all environment, but
much like the handyman saying, jack of all trades, master of none. By
picking the best of the available tools available in Linux, you can put
together a much more powerful environment than VS, without much effort.
It's not all going to be tied together in one app, but it isn't going to
be occupying 100 MB's of memory at all times either.
The other reason I prefer Linux is, it is much harder for a misbehaved
app (which most apps under development are) to take down the system. In
fact, I don't believe I have ever had the entire machine crash on me
while developing in Linux. I definitely can't say the same for any
flavour of Windows I've worked on (95, 98, NT, and 2K).
You may want to take another look at some of the environments that are
available in Linux now. I've been playing with KDevelop recently, to
learn KDE programming (professionally, I mostly work on network daemons
- no UI requirements). From what I have seen so far, it looks quite
good. Evolution is another one which I have used. It is still being
developed, but is showing a lot of promise. And there is also Source
Navigator, which has some glitches, but is otherwise a good environment.
There are several other environments in Linux, but in the end, I almost
always end up with vi, make and a command line based compiler, because
that is where I am most comfortable.
...Mike
May have missed it in your list - Ability to maintain a material inventory
for rough, dimensioned, wood type and dimension, sheet goods, and cost based
on board foot, lineal foot, square foot, and sheet, etc.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
> - should provide a project database for storing results and be able to
> recall and edit the parts list.
Silvan wrote:
> (Outhouse Excess,
> now, that's a different matter. I wish that would just go away. I
> wouldn't touch that glop with a 10' pole back when I was arguing that
> Linux was a "bunch of hacked together slapware" and posting with
> Agent from Windows 95/98/ME. :)
True, Outlook Distressed is the HF or Craftsman of newsreaders. But I use
it because there's nothing else better, and yes, I've paid real money to buy
WinDoze newsreaders like Virtual Access.
I have two other newsreaders installed on this computer. OE is the less-est
of 3 evils, but it's still evil. <g>
The only solution, of course, is to write my own. <g> Like all the other
efforts through the years, I'll be sure to use a UI that Microsoft would
have used if they hadn't been in rectal defilade, and I'll keep the
documentation sparse so users have the challenge & thrill of learning to use
it. <eg>
-- Mark
In article <[email protected]>,
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:37:46 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>
>> Maybe have some standard sizes as selectable inputs (like standard
>> melamine, baltic birch (half sheets), standard ply.
>
>With a little more though on my part, preferred/non-preferred orientation
>should be an attribute of the material - width/length order can be
>interchanged for efficiency as long as the rule of no stop cuts is
>preserved.
I'll suggest that so-called "stop cuts" are *not* a problem _IF_ the software
specifies the order of the cuts.
>
Hi All,
I have been following this thread with a lot of interest
as I am involved in the development of a Panel Optimization
program PLUS 2D (www.nirvanatec.com) myself.
In addition I have been a long time CAD programmer, in the Unix
environment, but have shifted to the Windows env.
I have found that there is a better return on investment
on programms written for the windows environment...ie.
more people buy your programs...
Though my love for Unix has not deminished in the years,
and would love to port my application to Unix/Mac/Palm but
I reckone windows users are a much bigger market and more
likely to pay_for/buy products, and I find it a little difficult
to justify the costs involved.
just my 2cents worth...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 04:38:13 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>>
>> I'll suggest that so-called "stop cuts" are *not* a problem _IF_ the software
>> specifies the order of the cuts.
>>
>>
>
> Is the software going to specify how you're going to shut off the
> Tablesaw and remove the stop-cut piece without damage to the piece or
> yourself?
>
> The thought of a stop-cut on a full or substantial portion of a sheet
> of plywood seems a bit problematic; but then maybe it's just me.
This is why I *love* requirements meetings ;-)
-Doug
EvoDawg wrote:
> Hope you realize what you have gotten yourself into!
Yeah, really. Well, maybe not. It looks like you guys have everything
under control now, and I can go hide and start bitching about when is it
finished. :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:37:46 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:21:54 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
>>
>> > Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:02:43 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
> ... snip
>> This ain't a requirements doc, but here's a start at a list of
>> requirements:
>>
>> - should work with sheetgoods and other wood products of various type and
>> sizes
>
> Maybe have some standard sizes as selectable inputs (like standard
> melamine, baltic birch (half sheets), standard ply.
>
>> - should take as input part#/material/thickness/width/length in a common
>> order. This is necessary for proper grain orientation, even with
>> sheetgoods.
>
> Perhaps with an option to turn off orientation in order to allow more
> efficient selection for sheet goods where orientation is not important.
> i.e. melamine
Good stuff!
All we need now is a volunteer for the requirements doc, and after that,
the design doc.
I'm a coder and don't do "docs" ;-) But I know where to get templates and
so forth...
BTW, I've been trying to install/build lignumCAD on RH9 with no joy (but
haven't really gotten into the source yet). If it really does what is
documented, this whole project could be a feature enhancement.
-Doug
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:56:58 +0000, Swingman wrote:
>
> > May have missed it in your list - Ability to maintain a material inventory
> > for rough, dimensioned, wood type and dimension, sheet goods, and cost based
> > on board foot, lineal foot, square foot, and sheet, etc.
>
> Very good, and cost with and without waste...
>
> Keep 'em coming.
>
> -Doug
>
Would it be more effective to do this development in phases? First
phase concentrates on sheet goods, second on dimension lumber?
Otherwise, price inputs and costs is a great idea.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> EvoDawg <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> <snip>
> >
> > Thank you for that great explanation. I perfer linux too, and no I'm not a
> > Windows hater, its just when someone bashes linux without ever trying it I
> > get a little pissed. I moved to linux 3 years ago and it's the best move I
> > ever made. It's made computing interesting again. I make the computer do
> > what I want it to do not the other way around. Its rare to ever have a
> > crash and when you do you don't get a blue screen and forced to reboot.
> > Your right vi rules. I'm not a programmer but I do love the command line
> > and writing scripts.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > Rich
>
> If you're referring to me bashing Linux, I'd suggest you reread all my
> posts. I never once bashed Linux and I've been using it for nine years
> now. I was bashing the Linux zealots who always seem to want to debate
> how evil Microsoft is and how Linux is the second coming for the
> computing world. When people use words like Microcrap, Windblows, M$,
> etc., it's usually an indication that the person just runs with the
> rest of the Linux zealots and doesn't have an independent thought.
>
So, having a strong opinion means that one does not have an
independent thought? I am not running Linux because my sat modem won't
work with it, but I certainly have very strong opinions regarding
Msoft's business practices, crappy software that thinks it knows better
than I the effects I am trying to achieve in the documents I am
creating, and Msoft's approaches to digital rights management (i.e.,
they have all the rights, you are along for the ride where they want you
to go). Doesn't make me a person running with Linux zealots, makes me a
person with not very many choices and a very frustrated attitude.
> -Bill
>
[SET MOOD = PLAYFUL]
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:27:24 +0000, [email protected]
(Robert Bonomi) brought forth from the murky depths:
>It assumes all input is: (a)syntactically correct, and (b) rational
Hah, with THIS group? (He make joke, Davey)
> 3) Parametric settings:
> A) Material lost to a cut (the blade 'kerf')
This is especially helpful with axe cuts. 5 settings oughta do 'er.
Thin kerf, regular kerf, wide kerf, chainsaw kerf, and axe kerf.
> *ALL* the 'hard stuff' is the 'goal seeking function'.
Like determining OSB grain direction?
> First enhancement would be some 'statistics' reporting:
> total sq. ft. used from 'inventory'.
> % waste
> etc.
"I'm sorry, but the waste level on this project is 100%. What did
you expect when using jum^H^H^Hpineywood?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I sent in my $5, so * http://www.diversify.com/stees.html
why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:40:03 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Would it be more effective to do this development in phases? First
> phase concentrates on sheet goods, second on dimension lumber?
> Otherwise, price inputs and costs is a great idea.
All the requirements should be documented, with the mandatories identified
for first release and the remainder scaled as to importance (gets
political at this point).
-Doug
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:00:30 -0800, Bill wrote:
> Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the
>> winter, and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the
>> Rosegarden project anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can
>> bring to the table, and the rather involved nature of the outstanding
>> bugs.
>>
> <snip>
>
> If you really want a cutlist program, why not install Wine
> (http://www.winehq.com) on your Linux system and get either CutlistPlus
> (http://www.cutlistplus.com/) or Sheet Layout
> (http://www.sheetlayout.com)? I realize neither one of those packages
> are free and by your email I can see that you're probably adverse to
> actually paying for software. Of course you could probably make a
> request to warez and get a copy for free. We wouldn't want a programmer
> to be able to make a living as a programmer now would we?
>
> -Bill
I tried but just couldn't let this slip...
Your suggestion for using Wine and some commercial cutlist programs is a
good one but your blatant assumption that "you're probably adverse to
actually paying for software" is ludicrous. There was nothing in his
post that indicated that at all. Your response makes me think you are
under the Microsoft hegemony that if we don't buy commercial software for
Windows then we must be thieves or communists. There are several
economic models that do not require massive commercial software houses in
order for developers to make a living.
Silvan's post was a request to write a _native_ cutlist program for
Linux, not to steal some other one. Wine works, lots of people like
Wine, but some people want native apps for both technical and
philosophical reasons. I personally want native apps to increase the
usability and market penetration of Linux.
I am a professional developer. I don't do warez and I have no aversion
to paying for software. But if I can take the time and write a
functional, native tool for Linux I will instead of trying to hack up a Wine
configuration that sort of works.
walt
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:02:43 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
>
>> LP wrote:
>>
>>> I dont know what the linux IRC client is called, but I do know there's
>>> one out there. If you can locate it, just point it to the AccessIRC
>>> network, and join the channel #woodworking.
>>
>> It's called KSirc (IRC Client) I haven't used it only because I don't do
>> IRC. But maybe that would be a great resource.
>>
> xchat is another Linux IRC client.
>
> A start on this project that doesn't require any coding skills would be to
> write a requirements document, followed by a design document.
>
> -Doug
That would be the first step, indeed.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Mike Alexander wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Very good. You're not one of those "I hate all Microsoft products"
>> people. I can respect your reasons for using Linux. As I've stated
>> previously, I think it's a better OS than Windows. The killer app for
>> Linux would be an integrated development environment much like Visual
>> Studio in Windows. Unfortunately something like that is difficult
>> since the products to be integrated aren't controlled by a single
>> entity. In that respect, Linux's strength is a weakness and vice-versa
>> for Windows. Maybe they've gotten closer. I haven't done any real dev.
>> in Linux for a couple years now.
>
> It's funny. I'm a professional software designer, and my opinion about
> development environments is exactly the opposite of yours. I have done a
> lot of work in both environments, and I find Linux to be a much better,
> much more flexible, and much more powerful development environment than
> Windows by far. But, diversity is what makes the world so interesting.
>
> I'll give you that Visual Studio is a nice do-it-all environment, but
> much like the handyman saying, jack of all trades, master of none. By
> picking the best of the available tools available in Linux, you can put
> together a much more powerful environment than VS, without much effort.
> It's not all going to be tied together in one app, but it isn't going to
> be occupying 100 MB's of memory at all times either.
>
> The other reason I prefer Linux is, it is much harder for a misbehaved
> app (which most apps under development are) to take down the system. In
> fact, I don't believe I have ever had the entire machine crash on me
> while developing in Linux. I definitely can't say the same for any
> flavour of Windows I've worked on (95, 98, NT, and 2K).
>
> You may want to take another look at some of the environments that are
> available in Linux now. I've been playing with KDevelop recently, to
> learn KDE programming (professionally, I mostly work on network daemons
> - no UI requirements). From what I have seen so far, it looks quite
> good. Evolution is another one which I have used. It is still being
> developed, but is showing a lot of promise. And there is also Source
> Navigator, which has some glitches, but is otherwise a good environment.
>
> There are several other environments in Linux, but in the end, I almost
> always end up with vi, make and a command line based compiler, because
> that is where I am most comfortable.
>
> ...Mike
Thank you for that great explanation. I perfer linux too, and no I'm not a
Windows hater, its just when someone bashes linux without ever trying it I
get a little pissed. I moved to linux 3 years ago and it's the best move I
ever made. It's made computing interesting again. I make the computer do
what I want it to do not the other way around. Its rare to ever have a
crash and when you do you don't get a blue screen and forced to reboot.
Your right vi rules. I'm not a programmer but I do love the command line
and writing scripts.
Thanks again,
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Robert Bonomi wrote:
>
> This will be a simple 'command-line' program; reads all inputs from
> files,and produces another file as it's output.
>
> It works with a _single_ type of material in any given run.
>
> It assumes all input is: (a)syntactically correct, and (b) rational
>
> INPUTS:
> 1) Inventory: A list of available material to cut pieces from.
> Each item consists of W and L dimension, and a quantity.
> there is a 'special value' for indicating an "infinite" resource.
> 2) Targets: A numbered (implicitly or explicitly) list of pieces to be
> cut.
> Each item is described by a W and L dimension, _and_ a flag
> as to whether the item can or can *not* be 'rotated'
> (For simplicity, if there are multiple items of the same dimension,
> they
> are listed individually.)
>
> 3) Parametric settings:
> A) Material lost to a cut (the blade 'kerf')
> B) "Oversize" adjustment -- either an absolute amount, or a
> percentage,
> by which pieces are "rough cut" larger than specified, to allow for
> later finishing to actual specified dimension.
> C) "Goals" The "percentage waste" points at which the program
> should
> output a set of results. A series of increasingly tighter tolerances
> the program should try to meet -- e.g. 50%, 30%, 20%, 15%, 10%, 7%, 5%
> D) "Time Limit", the point at which the program 'gives up', and
> outputs
> the "best match found so far", *IF* all the goals have -not- been met.
>
> OUTPUTS:
> 1) List of items from inventory used:
> W and L of the inventory item
> W and L of each 'target' piece that comes from this inventory item.
> H and V 'offset' (from starting corner of inventory piece) for the
> starting corner of this 'target' piece.
> The sequence of 'cut' operations required,
>
>
> CORE LOGIC:
>
> MAIN PROGRAM:
> 1) read all inputs into internal data structures
> 2) initialize goal-seeking function
> set time-limit
> set current_goal to 1st goal value
> 3) invoke GOAL-SEEKING function
> 4) invoke OUTPUT function for saved 'best arrangement'
> 5) EXIT program
>
>
> GOAL-SEEKING function:
> 01) set 'best prior arrangement' to "infinitely bad"
> 02) WHILE (any goals not met AND time-limit not exceeded)
> 03) examine next arrangement
> 04) IF less wasteful than best prior arrangement
> 05) save percentage waste factor for current ("best") arrangement
> 06) save current ("best") arrangement
> 07) IF less wasteful than current goal
> 08) invoke INTERMEDIATE-OUTPUT function
> 08) IF current_goal is tightest-tolerance goal
> 09) EXIT goal-seeking function
> 10) else
> 11) set current_goal to next tighter tolerance goal
> 12) END WHILE
> 13) EXIT function
>
>
> INTERMEDIATE_OUTPUT function:
> 1) open scratch file to write at beginning of file
> 2) write timestamp to scratch file
> 3) write 'start of arrangement' header to scratch file
> 4) write 'percentage waste' value for saved arrangement to scratch
> file 5) write saved 'best arrangement' to scratch file
> 6) write 'end of arrangement' footer. to scratch file
> 7) close scratch file
> 8) EXIT function
>
> OUTPUT function:
> 1) write 'start of arrangement' header to primary output
> 2) write 'percentage waste' value for saved arrangement to primary
> output 3) write saved 'best arrangement' to primary output
> 4) write 'end of arrangement' footer. to primary output
> 5) EXIT function
>
>
> ==========================
>
> COMMENTS:
>
> The program obviously 'generalizes' to handle multiple 'kinds' of items,
> simply by making multiple passes, processing a single kind in each
> pass.
>
> Trivial input enhancement to allow specifying a 'quantity' of a
> particular
> 'target' piece is *deliberately* excluded. whatever 'front-end'
> generates the list will be responsible for expanding any such
> "multiples".
>
> *ALL* the 'hard stuff' is the 'goal seeking function'.
>
> First enhancement would be some 'statistics' reporting:
> total sq. ft. used from 'inventory'.
> % waste
> etc.
>
> Obviously, it is 'trivial' to add a 'cost' component to inventory items.
> and report a total cost at the end. Enhancement includes "cost of
> pieces", "cost of waste", "cost of stock returned to inventory", and
> "cost of scrap". "billable cost" would be 'cost of pieces' plus 'cost
> of scrap'.
>
> A _separate_ program will take a generated cut-list, and do a "pull from
> inventory" operation, reducing inventory by the 'items used'. and
> adding any unused off-cuts back into inventory. It'll need saved
> parameters for minimum 'usable' stock size. anything below those
> minimums (length, width, and/or 'area') gets put in the 'scrap' list.
>
> Another separate program will do "add to inventory", for items
> purchased.
>
>
> *EVENTUALLY* 'inventory' _and_ the 'target' list are probably going to
> be implemented as "database". That lets people 'transparently' stick
> whatever other data desired onto the items, _without_ any impact on
> _this_ program.
>
>
> WISH-LIST (*WAY* down the road):
> To be able to include "defects" in the 'inventory item' descriptions,
> and
> have the program 'work around' those defects, when doing the layout.
> this is pretty much irrelevant for sheet stock, but significant for
> lumber.
>
> It complicates the goal-seeking logic _somewhat_ -- in that it's now not
> just fitting rectangular pieces into simple rectangular 'container
> objects'.
wow, I'm beginning to think this might even work with a CNC machine. You
know that router thingey that slides around and cuts panels, then spits
them out as furniture.
Great first Draft, think I'll sit back and watch the progress in amazement.
I can do a lot of things but my mind sure don't work like that.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Bill wrote:
> EvoDawg <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>> > Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:<[email protected]>...
>> >> We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the
>> >> winter, and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the
>> >> Rosegarden project anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can
>> >> bring to the table, and the rather involved nature of the outstanding
>> >> bugs.
>> >>
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > If you really want a cutlist program, why not install Wine
>> > (http://www.winehq.com) on your Linux system and get either
>> > CutlistPlus (http://www.cutlistplus.com/) or Sheet Layout
>> > (http://www.sheetlayout.com)? I realize neither one of those packages
>> > are free and by your email I can see that you're probably adverse to
>> > actually paying for software. Of course you could probably make a
>> > request to warez and get a copy for free. We wouldn't want a
>> > programmer to be able to make a living as a programmer now would we?
>> >
>> > -Bill
>>
>> We are Linux users, get it. We don't have to pay for software. We can
>> make our own. Wine sucks and I don't want anything to do with Windblows!
>> It hasn't been on my box for over 3 years.
>>
>> Rich
>
> You Linux folks are too easy. Still suffering from an inferiority
> complex I see. Always have to get on your soapbox. Don't worry, I've
> been doing the GNU thing since '95 and have compiled several Slackware
> kernels since then also. I use both at OSes at work and home. I have
> always said that Unix is a better OS, but Windows is a better dev.
> environment. I still stand by that today.
>
> -Bill
I'm on no soapbox. I just perfer linux over lining the pocket of a
megalomaniac that's trying to rule the world and control the information
coming to us. I'm no sheep or cow that can be herded between two fences and
driven to follow the rest to their demise. BTW, mandrake linux on hda and
slackware on hdb. Compiled both and it's not a big deal. Isn't it funny the
amount of market share Microcrap is losing to linux everyday. That has to
say something about the OS.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) writes:
>
>This will be a simple 'command-line' program; reads all inputs from files,and
>produces another file as it's output.
>
>It works with a _single_ type of material in any given run.
>
>It assumes all input is: (a)syntactically correct, and (b) rational
>
>INPUTS:
> 1) Inventory: A list of available material to cut pieces from.
> Each item consists of W and L dimension, and a quantity.
> there is a 'special value' for indicating an "infinite" resource.
Inventory should include Width, Length, Thickness, Species,
Type (lumber, plywood, osb, etc), and grain direction and
perhaps an indication of quarter, flat or plain sawn.
> 2) Targets: A numbered (implicitly or explicitly) list of pieces to be cut.
> Each item is described by a W and L dimension, _and_ a flag
> as to whether the item can or can *not* be 'rotated'
> (For simplicity, if there are multiple items of the same dimension, they
> are listed individually.)
Target should include Width, Length, Thickness, Species, Type
and grain direction.
>
> 3) Parametric settings:
> A) Material lost to a cut (the blade 'kerf')
> B) "Oversize" adjustment -- either an absolute amount, or a percentage,
> by which pieces are "rough cut" larger than specified, to allow for
> later finishing to actual specified dimension.
> C) "Goals" The "percentage waste" points at which the program should
> output a set of results. A series of increasingly tighter tolerances
> the program should try to meet -- e.g. 50%, 30%, 20%, 15%, 10%, 7%, 5%
> D) "Time Limit", the point at which the program 'gives up', and outputs
> the "best match found so far", *IF* all the goals have -not- been met.
>
>OUTPUTS:
> 1) List of items from inventory used:
> W and L of the inventory item
> W and L of each 'target' piece that comes from this inventory item.
> H and V 'offset' (from starting corner of inventory piece) for the
> starting corner of this 'target' piece.
> The sequence of 'cut' operations required,
>
>
>CORE LOGIC:
>
> MAIN PROGRAM:
> 1) read all inputs into internal data structures
> 2) initialize goal-seeking function
> set time-limit
> set current_goal to 1st goal value
> 3) invoke GOAL-SEEKING function
> 4) invoke OUTPUT function for saved 'best arrangement'
> 5) EXIT program
>
>
> GOAL-SEEKING function:
> 01) set 'best prior arrangement' to "infinitely bad"
> 02) WHILE (any goals not met AND time-limit not exceeded)
> 03) examine next arrangement
> 04) IF less wasteful than best prior arrangement
> 05) save percentage waste factor for current ("best") arrangement
> 06) save current ("best") arrangement
> 07) IF less wasteful than current goal
> 08) invoke INTERMEDIATE-OUTPUT function
> 08) IF current_goal is tightest-tolerance goal
> 09) EXIT goal-seeking function
> 10) else
> 11) set current_goal to next tighter tolerance goal
> 12) END WHILE
> 13) EXIT function
Iterative algorithm. Aren't there already some better
algorithms in the public literature? DAGS pentominos.
How is "less wasteful" quantified?
scott
Robert Bonomi wrote:
< snip >
> WISH-LIST (*WAY* down the road):
> To be able to include "defects" in the 'inventory item' descriptions, and
> have the program 'work around' those defects, when doing the layout. this
> is pretty much irrelevant for sheet stock, but significant for lumber.
>
> It complicates the goal-seeking logic _somewhat_ -- in that it's now not just
> fitting rectangular pieces into simple rectangular 'container objects'.
I've written a 2D nesting program that nests non-rectangular shapes in
rectangular areas. I can provide some help in this area, if you want. It
really is not all that difficult. A defect would simply be considered as
an area where something was already nested.
Remove the NOT from my address, if you want to communicate with me.
--
BambiKiller #3, BS #214, DogMasher #1
01 FLHTCUI <-- Black
03 FLHTCUI <-- Gunmetal Pearl
Silvan wrote:
> Steve Dunbar wrote:
>
>> I did a Google search and found a number of links dealing with the
>> "stock-cutting problem" or "2-D bin packing problem." This seems to be an
>> active area of research. See, for instance,
>> <http://circuits.cf.ac.uk/hopper/hopper.html#top>.
>
> Wow, after reading a few lines of that, I think I should go find some
> place
> to hide real quick like. :)
>
>> fitting rectangles into a rectangular region of fixed width. This might
>> be a good starting point. See
>> <http://linpacker.tuxfamily.org/index.html>.
>
> Very interesting. That bears looking at for sure!
>
Hope you realize what you have gotten yourself into!
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Mike Alexander wrote:
> You may want to take another look at some of the environments that are
> available in Linux now. I've been playing with KDevelop recently, to
> learn KDE programming (professionally, I mostly work on network daemons
> - no UI requirements). From what I have seen so far, it looks quite
> good. Evolution is another one which I have used. It is still being
> developed, but is showing a lot of promise. And there is also Source
> Navigator, which has some glitches, but is otherwise a good environment.
>
Whoops. Small correction. Evolution is an e-mail client. Eclipse is the
IDE I was thinking of. Sorry 'bout that.
...Mike
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the winter,
> and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the Rosegarden project
> anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can bring to the table, and
> the rather involved nature of the outstanding bugs.
>
<snip>
If you really want a cutlist program, why not install Wine
(http://www.winehq.com) on your Linux system and get either
CutlistPlus (http://www.cutlistplus.com/) or Sheet Layout
(http://www.sheetlayout.com)? I realize neither one of those packages
are free and by your email I can see that you're probably adverse to
actually paying for software. Of course you could probably make a
request to warez and get a copy for free. We wouldn't want a
programmer to be able to make a living as a programmer now would we?
-Bill
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:00:30 -0800, Bill wrote:
>
> > Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >> We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the winter,
> >> and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the Rosegarden project
> >> anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can bring to the table, and
> >> the rather involved nature of the outstanding bugs.
> >>
> > <snip>
> >
> > If you really want a cutlist program, why not install Wine
> > (http://www.winehq.com) on your Linux system and get either
> > CutlistPlus (http://www.cutlistplus.com/) or Sheet Layout
> > (http://www.sheetlayout.com)? I realize neither one of those packages
> > are free and by your email I can see that you're probably adverse to
> > actually paying for software. Of course you could probably make a
> > request to warez and get a copy for free. We wouldn't want a
> > programmer to be able to make a living as a programmer now would we?
> >
> > -Bill
>
> Bill, that you? How's things in Redmond?
>
> -Doug
LOL. Good one.
-Bill
EvoDawg <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Bill wrote:
>
> > Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >> We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the
> >> winter, and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the Rosegarden
> >> project anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can bring to the
> >> table, and the rather involved nature of the outstanding bugs.
> >>
> > <snip>
> >
> > If you really want a cutlist program, why not install Wine
> > (http://www.winehq.com) on your Linux system and get either
> > CutlistPlus (http://www.cutlistplus.com/) or Sheet Layout
> > (http://www.sheetlayout.com)? I realize neither one of those packages
> > are free and by your email I can see that you're probably adverse to
> > actually paying for software. Of course you could probably make a
> > request to warez and get a copy for free. We wouldn't want a
> > programmer to be able to make a living as a programmer now would we?
> >
> > -Bill
>
> We are Linux users, get it. We don't have to pay for software. We can make
> our own. Wine sucks and I don't want anything to do with Windblows! It
> hasn't been on my box for over 3 years.
>
> Rich
You Linux folks are too easy. Still suffering from an inferiority
complex I see. Always have to get on your soapbox. Don't worry, I've
been doing the GNU thing since '95 and have compiled several Slackware
kernels since then also. I use both at OSes at work and home. I have
always said that Unix is a better OS, but Windows is a better dev.
environment. I still stand by that today.
-Bill
EvoDawg <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Bill wrote:
>
> <snip>> >
>
> > You Linux folks are too easy. Still suffering from an inferiority
> > complex I see. Always have to get on your soapbox. Don't worry, I've
> > been doing the GNU thing since '95 and have compiled several Slackware
> > kernels since then also. I use both at OSes at work and home. I have
> > always said that Unix is a better OS, but Windows is a better dev.
> > environment. I still stand by that today.
> >
> > -Bill
>
> I'm on no soapbox. I just perfer linux over lining the pocket of a
> megalomaniac that's trying to rule the world and control the information
> coming to us. I'm no sheep or cow that can be herded between two fences and
> driven to follow the rest to their demise. BTW, mandrake linux on hda and
> slackware on hdb. Compiled both and it's not a big deal. Isn't it funny the
> amount of market share Microcrap is losing to linux everyday. That has to
> say something about the OS.
>
> Rich
You're no sheep or cow yet you actaully believe MS and/or Bill Gates
is trying to take over the world? Do you know that for a fact or is
that what all your other Linux buddies are telling you? Do you realize
that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has paid over $6 billion in
grants to aid world health and education? If that's an evil empire,
then we need more evil empires. And as far as your bogus statement on
Microsoft losing market share to Linux, here's an article you might be
interested in http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20031008S0013. I
already stated my feelings for Linux and Windows. I know both so my
marketability stays high. That's why I have a six figure salary. In my
opinion, you're a fool if you pigeonhole yourself to one area of
expertise.
-Bill
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:21:54 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
>
> > Doug Winterburn wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:02:43 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
> >>
> >>> LP wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I dont know what the linux IRC client is called, but I do know there's
> >>>> one out there. If you can locate it, just point it to the AccessIRC
> >>>> network, and join the channel #woodworking.
> >>>
> >>> It's called KSirc (IRC Client) I haven't used it only because I don't do
> >>> IRC. But maybe that would be a great resource.
> >>>
> >> xchat is another Linux IRC client.
> >>
> >> A start on this project that doesn't require any coding skills would be to
> >> write a requirements document, followed by a design document.
> >>
> >> -Doug
> >
> > That would be the first step, indeed.
>
> This ain't a requirements doc, but here's a start at a list of
> requirements:
>
> - should work with sheetgoods and other wood products of various type and
> sizes
>
> - should allow for saw kerfs
>
> - should take as input part#/material/thickness/width/length in a common
> order. This is necessary for proper grain orientation, even with
> sheetgoods.
>
> - should be able to import parts list from design applications such as
> lignumcad. Since lignumcad is open source, if it does not contain an
> export facility, one could be contributed using a standards based approach
> such as XML.
>
> - should not produce any stopped cuts, i.e. full rips and then crosscuts
>
> - open source development model would be desirable as speed of
> development and bug fixes/enhancements could draw on a large pool of
> developers, as well as using existing open source package(s) as a jump
> start.
>
> - should provide a project database for storing results and be able to
> recall and edit the parts list.
>
> - should be able to produce postscript or other printable output along
> with fully qualified/sorted parts list.
>
> I'm sure there are many more points, so feel free to rip into it and
> produce a real requirements doc.
>
> -Doug
What about the ability to add a small amount to each dimension for a
rough cut which can be cut to final dimensions at a later time.
The ability to generate a shopping list. Basically say that my sawmill
sells lumber which is 4-6" wide and 100" long. How many boards will I
need.
-Bill
EvoDawg <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> Yes they give billions, billions in computers with Microcrap software on it.
> Hmmm, wonder what their real motivation is? Bill Gates does nothing unless
> it benefits him and MicroCrap. I'm not bootstrapped to one OS I just choose
> to use the better OS, one with less chance of virus and Trojan attacks and
> a million times faster.
>
Man you are one paranoid individual.
> Six figures, wow. I own a construction company that did 15 million last
> year. What do you think my salary was? 3.75/hr.
Well, if you were smart, yes. Low salary equals low taxes.
> Oh, they're worried that's why every chance they get you will hear attacks
> spewing from their mouths when it comes to Linux. They have just about lost
> most of Europe and the rest of world is seeing through their bullshit,
> finally!
>
> Rich
I would be willing to bet that they're worried less about Linux than
you're worried about Microsoft and what Bill Gates is up to. Just be
happy that you've "outsmarted" them and get on with life before you
have a coronary.
-Bill
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> I stay out of politics. Everything else aside, the #1 reason why I love
> Linux is because I can customize EVERYTHING!! I've never had control like
> this before. Once I got a taste for it, it took me about three days to
> make it my default, and about a month before I reclaimed the wasted space
> and reformatted my Windows partition to use a filesystem that let me set
> permissions properly.
>
> I haven't looked back, and I don't give a rat's ass why anybody runs
> anything.
Very good. You're not one of those "I hate all Microsoft products"
people. I can respect your reasons for using Linux. As I've stated
previously, I think it's a better OS than Windows. The killer app for
Linux would be an integrated development environment much like Visual
Studio in Windows. Unfortunately something like that is difficult
since the products to be integrated aren't controlled by a single
entity. In that respect, Linux's strength is a weakness and vice-versa
for Windows. Maybe they've gotten closer. I haven't done any real dev.
in Linux for a couple years now.
I will apologize for my remark about you not wanting to purchase
software. That was a bit of a troll and, unsurprisingly, it worked.
-Bill
Mike Alexander <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Bill wrote:
> > Very good. You're not one of those "I hate all Microsoft products"
> > people. I can respect your reasons for using Linux. As I've stated
> > previously, I think it's a better OS than Windows. The killer app for
> > Linux would be an integrated development environment much like Visual
> > Studio in Windows. Unfortunately something like that is difficult
> > since the products to be integrated aren't controlled by a single
> > entity. In that respect, Linux's strength is a weakness and vice-versa
> > for Windows. Maybe they've gotten closer. I haven't done any real dev.
> > in Linux for a couple years now.
>
> It's funny. I'm a professional software designer, and my opinion about
> development environments is exactly the opposite of yours. I have done a
> lot of work in both environments, and I find Linux to be a much better,
> much more flexible, and much more powerful development environment than
> Windows by far. But, diversity is what makes the world so interesting.
>
> I'll give you that Visual Studio is a nice do-it-all environment, but
> much like the handyman saying, jack of all trades, master of none. By
> picking the best of the available tools available in Linux, you can put
> together a much more powerful environment than VS, without much effort.
> It's not all going to be tied together in one app, but it isn't going to
> be occupying 100 MB's of memory at all times either.
>
> The other reason I prefer Linux is, it is much harder for a misbehaved
> app (which most apps under development are) to take down the system. In
> fact, I don't believe I have ever had the entire machine crash on me
> while developing in Linux. I definitely can't say the same for any
> flavour of Windows I've worked on (95, 98, NT, and 2K).
>
> You may want to take another look at some of the environments that are
> available in Linux now. I've been playing with KDevelop recently, to
> learn KDE programming (professionally, I mostly work on network daemons
> - no UI requirements). From what I have seen so far, it looks quite
> good. Evolution is another one which I have used. It is still being
> developed, but is showing a lot of promise. And there is also Source
> Navigator, which has some glitches, but is otherwise a good environment.
>
> There are several other environments in Linux, but in the end, I almost
> always end up with vi, make and a command line based compiler, because
> that is where I am most comfortable.
>
> ...Mike
Like I said, I haven't done much dev. in Linux for a couple years.
I'll definitely give those IDEs a look. I was looking at KDevelop
yesterday when I wrote the post. Looks pretty good. I always found
Emacs to be my environment of choice, but I'd use vi on a server when
I needed to do some quick changes.
-Bill
EvoDawg <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
<snip>
>
> Thank you for that great explanation. I perfer linux too, and no I'm not a
> Windows hater, its just when someone bashes linux without ever trying it I
> get a little pissed. I moved to linux 3 years ago and it's the best move I
> ever made. It's made computing interesting again. I make the computer do
> what I want it to do not the other way around. Its rare to ever have a
> crash and when you do you don't get a blue screen and forced to reboot.
> Your right vi rules. I'm not a programmer but I do love the command line
> and writing scripts.
>
> Thanks again,
> Rich
If you're referring to me bashing Linux, I'd suggest you reread all my
posts. I never once bashed Linux and I've been using it for nine years
now. I was bashing the Linux zealots who always seem to want to debate
how evil Microsoft is and how Linux is the second coming for the
computing world. When people use words like Microcrap, Windblows, M$,
etc., it's usually an indication that the person just runs with the
rest of the Linux zealots and doesn't have an independent thought.
-Bill
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Silvan wrote:
>
> > Steve Dunbar wrote:
> >
> >> I did a Google search and found a number of links dealing with the
> >> "stock-cutting problem" or "2-D bin packing problem." This seems to be an
> >> active area of research. See, for instance,
> >> <http://circuits.cf.ac.uk/hopper/hopper.html#top>.
> >
> > Wow, after reading a few lines of that, I think I should go find some
> > place
> > to hide real quick like. :)
> >
> >> fitting rectangles into a rectangular region of fixed width. This might
> >> be a good starting point. See
> >> <http://linpacker.tuxfamily.org/index.html>.
> >
> > Very interesting. That bears looking at for sure!
> >
>
> Hope you realize what you have gotten yourself into!
>
> Rich
>
>
Good, somebody asked the question I was going to ask (don't know why
Steve Dunbar's post didn't show up). i.e., it looks like a number of
folks have volunteered to work the coding issue, has anybody looked into
the algorithm design issue? Looking at the above referenced site, it
appears that the guillotineable layouts are those that meet the
constraint for not having any stopped cuts (in one dimension).
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:21:54 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:02:43 +0000, EvoDawg wrote:
>>
>>> LP wrote:
>>>
>>>> I dont know what the linux IRC client is called, but I do know there's
>>>> one out there. If you can locate it, just point it to the AccessIRC
>>>> network, and join the channel #woodworking.
>>>
>>> It's called KSirc (IRC Client) I haven't used it only because I don't do
>>> IRC. But maybe that would be a great resource.
>>>
>> xchat is another Linux IRC client.
>>
>> A start on this project that doesn't require any coding skills would be to
>> write a requirements document, followed by a design document.
>>
>> -Doug
>
> That would be the first step, indeed.
This ain't a requirements doc, but here's a start at a list of
requirements:
- should work with sheetgoods and other wood products of various type and
sizes
- should allow for saw kerfs
- should take as input part#/material/thickness/width/length in a common
order. This is necessary for proper grain orientation, even with
sheetgoods.
- should be able to import parts list from design applications such as
lignumcad. Since lignumcad is open source, if it does not contain an
export facility, one could be contributed using a standards based approach
such as XML.
- should not produce any stopped cuts, i.e. full rips and then crosscuts
- open source development model would be desirable as speed of
development and bug fixes/enhancements could draw on a large pool of
developers, as well as using existing open source package(s) as a jump
start.
- should provide a project database for storing results and be able to
recall and edit the parts list.
- should be able to produce postscript or other printable output along
with fully qualified/sorted parts list.
I'm sure there are many more points, so feel free to rip into it and
produce a real requirements doc.
-Doug
Steve Dunbar wrote:
> Silvan wrote:
>
>> We don't have a cutlist program. ...
>
> I'd be interested in a program like this, but I'm afraid it may prove
> rather
> difficult to write it. Unfortunately I have neither the expertise nor the
> time to be of much help with the program.
>
Just testing it would be of great help.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
In article <[email protected]>,
Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) writes:
>>
>>This will be a simple 'command-line' program; reads all inputs from files,and
>>produces another file as it's output.
>>
>>It works with a _single_ type of material in any given run.
>>
>>It assumes all input is: (a)syntactically correct, and (b) rational
>>
>>INPUTS:
>> 1) Inventory: A list of available material to cut pieces from.
>> Each item consists of W and L dimension, and a quantity.
>> there is a 'special value' for indicating an "infinite" resource.
>
> Inventory should include Width, Length, Thickness, Species,
> Type (lumber, plywood, osb, etc), and grain direction and
> perhaps an indication of quarter, flat or plain sawn.
Thickness, species, type, and 'indiction of quarter, flat, or plain sawn'
are _irrelevant_ at "Phase I"
READ THE SPECIFICATION -- "it works with a _single_ type of material..."
>> 2) Targets: A numbered (implicitly or explicitly) list of pieces to be cut.
>> Each item is described by a W and L dimension, _and_ a flag
>> as to whether the item can or can *not* be 'rotated'
>> (For simplicity, if there are multiple items of the same dimension, they
>> are listed individually.)
>
> Target should include Width, Length, Thickness, Species, Type
> and grain direction.
For reasons identified above, at "phase I", 'thickness, species, and type'
are *irrelevant*.
As such they are *deliberately* omitted.
>> 3) Parametric settings:
>> A) Material lost to a cut (the blade 'kerf')
>> B) "Oversize" adjustment -- either an absolute amount, or a percentage,
>> by which pieces are "rough cut" larger than specified, to allow for
>> later finishing to actual specified dimension.
>> C) "Goals" The "percentage waste" points at which the program should
>> output a set of results. A series of increasingly tighter tolerances
>> the program should try to meet -- e.g. 50%, 30%, 20%, 15%, 10%, 7%, 5%
>> D) "Time Limit", the point at which the program 'gives up', and outputs
>> the "best match found so far", *IF* all the goals have -not- been met.
>>
>>OUTPUTS:
>> 1) List of items from inventory used:
>> W and L of the inventory item
>> W and L of each 'target' piece that comes from this inventory item.
>> H and V 'offset' (from starting corner of inventory piece) for the
>> starting corner of this 'target' piece.
>> The sequence of 'cut' operations required,
>>
>>
>>CORE LOGIC:
>>
>> MAIN PROGRAM:
>> 1) read all inputs into internal data structures
>> 2) initialize goal-seeking function
>> set time-limit
>> set current_goal to 1st goal value
>> 3) invoke GOAL-SEEKING function
>> 4) invoke OUTPUT function for saved 'best arrangement'
>> 5) EXIT program
>>
>>
>> GOAL-SEEKING function:
>> 01) set 'best prior arrangement' to "infinitely bad"
>> 02) WHILE (any goals not met AND time-limit not exceeded)
>> 03) examine next arrangement
>> 04) IF less wasteful than best prior arrangement
>> 05) save percentage waste factor for current ("best") arrangement
>> 06) save current ("best") arrangement
>> 07) IF less wasteful than current goal
>> 08) invoke INTERMEDIATE-OUTPUT function
>> 08) IF current_goal is tightest-tolerance goal
>> 09) EXIT goal-seeking function
>> 10) else
>> 11) set current_goal to next tighter tolerance goal
>> 12) END WHILE
>> 13) EXIT function
>
>Iterative algorithm. Aren't there already some better
>algorithms in the public literature? DAGS pentominos.
The 2-d packing problem is known to be NP-complete. It is _not_possible_
to write a finite algorithm to come up with the 'best' solution.
You are left with "try it and find out" approaches.
The *ONLY* way to tell which of two (or more) arrangements is better
is to _compare_ the candidates.
The postulated 'better algorithm' applies _only_ to the selection of the
"next arrangement" to be evaluated
>
>How is "less wasteful" quantified?
The total surface ares of the stock removed from inventory is broken down
into three components:
area of desired pieces
area of off-cuts big enough to return to inventory
area of 'scrap'
The smaller the total area removed from inventory, the the less wasteful
the layout.
For "equivalent" demands from inventory, the one with the smaller amount of
'scrap' is preferable.
By design, one makes the 'less wasteful' evaluation a _separate_ function,
so that anyone can 'relatively trivially' swap out any provided methodology
for one that meets _their_ 'individualized' needs.
For similar reasons the selection of the 'next arrangement' to evaluate
is also modularized -- allowing one to insert a 'better' routine, if/when
it is developed, and/or *test* different selection algorithms.
This will be a simple 'command-line' program; reads all inputs from files,and
produces another file as it's output.
It works with a _single_ type of material in any given run.
It assumes all input is: (a)syntactically correct, and (b) rational
INPUTS:
1) Inventory: A list of available material to cut pieces from.
Each item consists of W and L dimension, and a quantity.
there is a 'special value' for indicating an "infinite" resource.
2) Targets: A numbered (implicitly or explicitly) list of pieces to be cut.
Each item is described by a W and L dimension, _and_ a flag
as to whether the item can or can *not* be 'rotated'
(For simplicity, if there are multiple items of the same dimension, they
are listed individually.)
3) Parametric settings:
A) Material lost to a cut (the blade 'kerf')
B) "Oversize" adjustment -- either an absolute amount, or a percentage,
by which pieces are "rough cut" larger than specified, to allow for
later finishing to actual specified dimension.
C) "Goals" The "percentage waste" points at which the program should
output a set of results. A series of increasingly tighter tolerances
the program should try to meet -- e.g. 50%, 30%, 20%, 15%, 10%, 7%, 5%
D) "Time Limit", the point at which the program 'gives up', and outputs
the "best match found so far", *IF* all the goals have -not- been met.
OUTPUTS:
1) List of items from inventory used:
W and L of the inventory item
W and L of each 'target' piece that comes from this inventory item.
H and V 'offset' (from starting corner of inventory piece) for the
starting corner of this 'target' piece.
The sequence of 'cut' operations required,
CORE LOGIC:
MAIN PROGRAM:
1) read all inputs into internal data structures
2) initialize goal-seeking function
set time-limit
set current_goal to 1st goal value
3) invoke GOAL-SEEKING function
4) invoke OUTPUT function for saved 'best arrangement'
5) EXIT program
GOAL-SEEKING function:
01) set 'best prior arrangement' to "infinitely bad"
02) WHILE (any goals not met AND time-limit not exceeded)
03) examine next arrangement
04) IF less wasteful than best prior arrangement
05) save percentage waste factor for current ("best") arrangement
06) save current ("best") arrangement
07) IF less wasteful than current goal
08) invoke INTERMEDIATE-OUTPUT function
08) IF current_goal is tightest-tolerance goal
09) EXIT goal-seeking function
10) else
11) set current_goal to next tighter tolerance goal
12) END WHILE
13) EXIT function
INTERMEDIATE_OUTPUT function:
1) open scratch file to write at beginning of file
2) write timestamp to scratch file
3) write 'start of arrangement' header to scratch file
4) write 'percentage waste' value for saved arrangement to scratch file
5) write saved 'best arrangement' to scratch file
6) write 'end of arrangement' footer. to scratch file
7) close scratch file
8) EXIT function
OUTPUT function:
1) write 'start of arrangement' header to primary output
2) write 'percentage waste' value for saved arrangement to primary output
3) write saved 'best arrangement' to primary output
4) write 'end of arrangement' footer. to primary output
5) EXIT function
==========================
COMMENTS:
The program obviously 'generalizes' to handle multiple 'kinds' of items,
simply by making multiple passes, processing a single kind in each pass.
Trivial input enhancement to allow specifying a 'quantity' of a particular
'target' piece is *deliberately* excluded. whatever 'front-end' generates
the list will be responsible for expanding any such "multiples".
*ALL* the 'hard stuff' is the 'goal seeking function'.
First enhancement would be some 'statistics' reporting:
total sq. ft. used from 'inventory'.
% waste
etc.
Obviously, it is 'trivial' to add a 'cost' component to inventory items.
and report a total cost at the end. Enhancement includes "cost of
pieces", "cost of waste", "cost of stock returned to inventory", and
"cost of scrap". "billable cost" would be 'cost of pieces' plus 'cost of
scrap'.
A _separate_ program will take a generated cut-list, and do a "pull from
inventory" operation, reducing inventory by the 'items used'. and
adding any unused off-cuts back into inventory. It'll need saved
parameters for minimum 'usable' stock size. anything below those
minimums (length, width, and/or 'area') gets put in the 'scrap' list.
Another separate program will do "add to inventory", for items purchased.
*EVENTUALLY* 'inventory' _and_ the 'target' list are probably going to
be implemented as "database". That lets people 'transparently' stick
whatever other data desired onto the items, _without_ any impact on
_this_ program.
WISH-LIST (*WAY* down the road):
To be able to include "defects" in the 'inventory item' descriptions, and
have the program 'work around' those defects, when doing the layout. this
is pretty much irrelevant for sheet stock, but significant for lumber.
It complicates the goal-seeking logic _somewhat_ -- in that it's now not just
fitting rectangular pieces into simple rectangular 'container objects'.
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:37:46 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Maybe have some standard sizes as selectable inputs (like standard
> melamine, baltic birch (half sheets), standard ply.
With a little more though on my part, preferred/non-preferred orientation
should be an attribute of the material - width/length order can be
interchanged for efficiency as long as the rule of no stop cuts is
preserved.
-Doug
In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>[SET MOOD = PLAYFUL]
[SET RESPONSE = "appropriate to questions"]
>
>
>On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:27:24 +0000, [email protected]
>(Robert Bonomi) brought forth from the murky depths:
>
>>It assumes all input is: (a)syntactically correct, and (b) rational
>
>Hah, with THIS group? (He make joke, Davey)
>
>
>> 3) Parametric settings:
>> A) Material lost to a cut (the blade 'kerf')
>
>This is especially helpful with axe cuts. 5 settings oughta do 'er.
>Thin kerf, regular kerf, wide kerf, chainsaw kerf, and axe kerf.
Nah! Only 5 is woefully inadequate.
Gotta consider the size of the blade for circular saws -- a 48" dia sawmill
blade takes a MUCH bigger cut than a 10" WWII thin-kerf.
For chain-saws, it depends on the size (width) of the chain.
As for axes, it is *obvious* that you have to allow for a 'bit' more losses
with a double-bitted axe than a single-bitted one. *snicker*
>> *ALL* the 'hard stuff' is the 'goal seeking function'.
>
>Like determining OSB grain direction?
That's _trivial_! "BY DEFINITION", grain runs the 'length' of the stock.
If you want it running across the 'short direction', you just define the
piece as having a "width" that is greater than the 'length'. "No problemo."
>> First enhancement would be some 'statistics' reporting:
>> total sq. ft. used from 'inventory'.
>> % waste
>> etc.
>
>"I'm sorry, but the waste level on this project is 100%. What did
>you expect when using jum^H^H^Hpineywood?"
100% waste, or more is _not_ unheard of. If you figure 'waste' as
size of off-cuts and scrap vs size of 'needed' pieces.
Trivial example. You need a 2'x2' piece of ply, and all you have is full sheets.
28 sq ft of 'waste', vs 4 sq ft of 'needed'.
"waste level" is SEVEN HUNDRED PERCENT (!!) <grin>
Walt wrote:
>> The only development environment anybody ever needs is vim anyway. :)
>>
>
> OB: religion
>
> EMACS.
I said "development environment" not "operating system."
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
>>On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:56:58 +0000, Swingman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>May have missed it in your list - Ability to maintain a material inventory
>>>for rough, dimensioned, wood type and dimension, sheet goods, and cost based
>>>on board foot, lineal foot, square foot, and sheet, etc.
>>
>>Very good, and cost with and without waste...
>>
>>Keep 'em coming.
>>
>>-Doug
>>
>
>
>
> Would it be more effective to do this development in phases? First
> phase concentrates on sheet goods, second on dimension lumber?
> Otherwise, price inputs and costs is a great idea.
The hardest part of this problem is the heuristics for the layout
engine. The rest is a matter of technique and paying attention to
detail. If I were doing this (and thankfully, I am not :) I would
spend my early research and time on the heuristics problem...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
EvoDawg wrote:
> It's called KSirc (IRC Client) I haven't used it only because I don't do
> IRC. But maybe that would be a great resource.
I use... Um. sirc? I don't IRC much either. I set something up when I
was switching to Debian, so I could ask those guys some stupid questions.
There's no Debian newsgroup for some reason.
Lots of IRC clients out there though, and no, that's not a bad idea at all.
We should set up some kind of mailing list. I've looked into the
registration process at SF, and we need to get a lot further toward having
tangible goals before I'm comfortable writing up a proposal. We should
come up with a way to communicate between now and then without clogging up
the Wreck, but IRC isn't the best choice for me.
I guess for now, if you have any thoughts, e-mail me.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Robert Bonomi wrote:
>
> This will be a simple 'command-line' program; reads all inputs from
> files,and produces another file as it's output.
Crikey. Looks like a good recipe for a logical, focused beginning, but I
can also clearly see that I am *way* out of my league here.
Maybe I would be better equipped to hack on the eventual front-end for this
thing.
Run with it, please, by all means, but I don't think I have anything useful
to offer at this stage.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Mark Jerde wrote:
> True, Outlook Distressed is the HF or Craftsman of newsreaders. But I use
Feh. It's not even as useful as one of those screwdriver sets from the
Dollar Tree.
No Linux zealotism required either. I looked at that thing when it came
out, and I said "wow, what a piece of crap" and I kept using Agent. Agent
is good software. I'd probably be running it now if they'd port it to
Linux (even if I had to pay for it again), but I don't love it enough to
futz with Wine to get it.
I never saw IE or OE as something people would ever actually *use*. I just
figured they were these cheap freebie giveaway junk things like the
solitaire game and mine sweeper. But millions of people don't even know
there's anything else out there. Millions don't even care, because they're
used to the stuff that came on their CD, and that's what all their friends
use too, so why look for anything else? If it's good enough for Uncle
Bill, why, hell, why should I look for something different?
I can see where this was a good thing in a way. It used to be that you
installed DOS, and you could type DIR and look at your COMMAND.COM and
AUTOEXEC.BAT all day, and whee. Maybe if you were really adventuresome,
you might even find FORMAT.COM and DIR.EXE. If you wanted to do anything,
you had to go buy some software. Even after Windows came to town, you
installed Windows, and you got a bunch of pretty stuff on the screen, and a
solitaire game.
(Admit it old timers. You used to start Windows just to play the solitaire
game, and then you'd exit back to DOS to get real work done, because early
Windows couldn't multitask worth a damn, and you had work to do. Am I
right?)
I thought Microsoft was trying to help people out by offering up some cheapo
freebies. I never predicted that those cheapo freebies would become the
most widely used software on earth. THEY SUCK!!! I didn't run any of that
shit years before I ever thought about giving Linux a try. Not only do
people run them, Microsoft has set it up to discourage people from trying
to avoid them. It's hard to get rid of IE, for example. All other
considerations aside, it's probably easier on their tech support people if
they know what everyone is running in advance.
That's one thing I really liked about Linux from day one. It's all there.
Every newsreader that has been written for a Unix-like platform in the last
20 years is there on the CD. Every e-mail program, every web browser
(well, maybe not Opera.) There are still far too many categories where we
have nothing at all, or our best offering is still in pretty rough shape,
but we at least have these basics covered in spades, shovels, and
wheelbarrows. Two major, modern GUIs with associated suites of
applications, three office packages, myriad independant offerings.
A lot of these new generation IE/OE users are baffled by this level of
choice when they look at Linux. A lot of these applications really suck
too, but there's something in these primary categories for everyone, and
nobody is forced to use nor discouraged from using anything. It's easy to
delete what you don't want. Run KDE but use Nautilus (or whatever the
GNOME web browser is now), run GNOME but use KMail, run IceWM but use
Evolution and slrn. We have choices out the ass, and it's all right there.
It's not like your kernel crashes because you decide you don't want to run
Konqueror and try to replace it with Opera.
I see Windows like the way we Americans used to view Communist Russia in
propaganda films. A lot of sad people, all dressed in black, trudging back
and forth to work every day with a look of desolate resolution on their
faces. I see Linux as Mardi Gras or Carneval. Lots of freaky people in
bright colors doing weird dances and getting really wasted and having one
hell of a good time in the process.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Silvan wrote:
> We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the
> winter, and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the Rosegarden
> project anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can bring to the
> table, and the rather involved nature of the outstanding bugs.
>
> I'm looking for something to distract me until spring, and a recent thread
> about using a cutlist program got me to thinking...
>
> So let's think about this... I'm not terribly gifted, but QT/KDE isn't
> rocket science. I could probably knock out a basic framework in a couple
> of months. Especially if I use QT Designer to prototype and machine code
> the GUI elements. I usually don't, but I've been thinking how much easier
> it would be if I did. (Three weeks for one fscking dialog box. Gack!
> I'm not eager to do that again!)
>
> I'm a mathematical retard (seriously, a total brain damaged how did he get
> a college degree retard), and I haven't done any sort of graphic work
> (drawing lines, boxes, that sort of hands on, computer-calculated vector
> thing) since Turbo Basic. I can knock out a GUI framework for the thing,
> but I will need real help with the math and graphics to make the thing
> perform a useful function. I'm very weak on OOP design too. Getting
> better, but I still have a fundamentally procedural mindset to trip over.
>
> It would help if I knew what a cutlist program is supposed to look like
> too. I don't own any copies of Windows, so even if there's a free one or a
> demo
> out there, it doesn't do me much good. (I got rid of Wine a long time
> ago,
> and am not particularly interested in fooling with it. It never worked
> worth a damn anyway.)
>
> So, we all know there are about a half million projects out there just
> languishing in vapor land, with bold promises of features to come last
> updated in 1999. The chances of our getting this off the ground and
> turning out something useful are very slim. But it *could* happen.
>
> If we have a user base for this, it will likely be centered right here on
> the Wreck. Woodworking Linux users are a pretty specialized subset of
> both
> the woodworking and computer using breeds. If there's any interest to be
> drummed up, much of it will likely be right here.
>
> So how about it? If this sounds like something you want to have, speak
> up.
> If you want to hack on it too, speak up loudly. If you're a Linux hacking
> god and my meager skills would just stand in your way, then speak up very
> loudly. I'm much better at testing/debugging and writing docs than I am
> at
> coding. I only open a source file out of necessity, because no one else
> is getting around to whatever needs doing fast enough to suit me, and
> about half the time I don't get it fixed before someone with real skill
> gets a chance to take a crack at it.
>
> (If you think "hacker" means someone who breaks into computer systems
> illegally, you probably have no idea what the hell I was just talking
> about
> anyway. Fear not, gentle Wrecker, there is no evil conspiracy afoot here.
> We're talking about creating a cutlist program to run on our operating
> system. Nothing more insidious than that, I assure you.)
>
Silvan count me in. But like you my computer skills are limited. I can
probably do something in Qt3 but I will have to look into it again, I
havent messed with code either for some time. I'm more into scripting at
this point.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Silvan wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>
>
>>- Separate the logic of the program from it's GUI presentation. That
>> allows you to start out without a GUI and have it just spit out
>
>
> Definitely. My thinking has been going in that direction too. We need to
> solve the underlying problem first, before even thinking about what
> features the thing should have.
>
>
>>- A _Very_ good and easy to maintain environment for this kind of
>> thing is the Python language with Tkinter GUI framework. The
>> nice thing about it that your program will run on Win32, Linux,
>> FreeBSD, and probably even Macs. I wrote a reasonably complex
>> program like this some time ago and was VERY happy with
>> environment: http://www.tundraware.com/Software/twander/
>
>
> Interesting. I'll have a look. I've not done anything with Pyton, but I
> think I have a beginner's guide around here somewhere. Python or Ruby, I
> forget which. It looks kinda nasty to learn.
>
No. If you have ever programmed in any modern language (perl, C, C++,
java, pascal, BASIC, etc.) Python will be the _easiest_ language you
ever learned. If I were still teaching (thank goodness I am not), I
would use Python for beginning programmers...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Neal wrote:
> I suggest you get your facts right concerning what the Gates Foundation
> has
> done. The foundation is the largest charity foundation in the world with
> over
> 20 billion dollars. The vast majoriy of this money goes out for medical
> aid to
> poor countries. This is not benefiting Microsoft financially. I try to be
As I understand it (and I could well be mistaken), one reason Bill Gates
gives away so much money is because he doesn't want his children to grow up
spoiled, lazy brats. He wants them to have to earn a living, and make
their own fortunes. I can respect that.
I stay out of politics. Everything else aside, the #1 reason why I love
Linux is because I can customize EVERYTHING!! I've never had control like
this before. Once I got a taste for it, it took me about three days to
make it my default, and about a month before I reclaimed the wasted space
and reformatted my Windows partition to use a filesystem that let me set
permissions properly.
I haven't looked back, and I don't give a rat's ass why anybody runs
anything.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> - should work with sheetgoods and other wood products of various type and
> sizes
About the various types and sizes... I'm not quite getting what a cutlist
program should do in this area. I create a list of parts, and it tells me
what size board/how many to buy, or I specify the board and it helps me
figure out what parts I can cut out of it?
With random length/width hardwoods, this is something that needs real
thought. As a user, I'd probably want to be able to build a database of
stock I have available for the project at hand, and let it pick what goes
where.
Since we're dealing with two dimensions (at least, that's as far as I'm
thinking right now) it doesn't much matter whether it's a board or a sheet.
I'm thinking of Board objects that have a length, width, and grain
orientation property, including "no grain" as an option. This kind of
object could represent anything from walnut to plywood to MDF.
> - should allow for saw kerfs
Definitely. I'm thinking for convenience predefine standard and thin, then
have a user-specified option.
I'm thinking we want to stay away from floating point and potential rounding
errors and big headaches. I'm thinking 1/64" resolution, and track all
dimensions internally as 64ths. We should allow for Metric measurements
for the whole rest of the planet too, which is something that needs some
thought. Use Imperial internally, convert to Metric as needed. Use Metric
internally, convert to Imperial as needed, or work with whichever system
internally. Since this is Linuxdom, we should probably default to Metric,
or take the preference from the locale.
> - should take as input part#/material/thickness/width/length in a common
> order. This is necessary for proper grain orientation, even with
> sheetgoods.
Does thickness matter? Things get much more complicated in three
dimensions.
Should have a quick and dirty typing mode, and a pointy clicky typing
impaired mode.
> - should be able to import parts list from design applications such as
> lignumcad. Since lignumcad is open source, if it does not contain an
> export facility, one could be contributed using a standards based approach
> such as XML.
URL? I haven't heard of it. OK, I'll STFW. Anyway, I agree on principle.
In the long term, it should probably export to useful formats too.
Browsing the abstracts after a google search, it seems some of the Windows
programs can be used to export files that can be fed to CNC equipment.
Lots of research needed, and I would put that as a late cycle feature.
> - should not produce any stopped cuts, i.e. full rips and then crosscuts
Or vice versa. For the sort of things I've been making lately, it's better
to crosscut into discrete regions and then rip to width.
> - open source development model would be desirable as speed of
> development and bug fixes/enhancements could draw on a large pool of
> developers, as well as using existing open source package(s) as a jump
> start.
If I have anything to do with it, it will be GPL, and if it has a GUI, it
will be QT/KDE. I have enough trouble with one framework, and since I'm
not a professional developer, I see no reason to learn anything else. I
like KDE, I use KDE, I hack on KDE apps, and avoid everything else as much
as practicable.
> I'm sure there are many more points, so feel free to rip into it and
> produce a real requirements doc.
Lot's to go yet, I'm sure. I've never started anything collaborative from
scratch, so this is all new to me. If somebody with a hefty dollop of clue
wants to take the reins and get things off the ground, I'll be happy to
step back and be a mere footnote contributor.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 04:38:13 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The thought of a stop-cut on a full or substantial portion of a sheet
>of plywood seems a bit problematic; but then maybe it's just me.
>
>> >
>>
I just did one a couple of hours ago. countertop with an inside
corner. marked the stop point with tape, fed the material to within
about 3 or 4 inches, stopped feeding the sheet. raised the blade to
finish the cut (closer to 90 degrees and all). cranked the blade all
of the way down before shutting down the saw. all in all it felt very
safe. now, this was an almost full sheet of 3/4" plywood, so it had
enough weight that kickback was unlikely. if it was something like a 6
or 8" wide board of dimensional material I would have lifted it off of
the blade when I got close and finished with a handsaw and chisel.
Bridger
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:25:55 -0800, Silvan wrote:
> Mike Alexander wrote:
>
>> lot of work in both environments, and I find Linux to be a much better,
>> much more flexible, and much more powerful development environment than
>> Windows by far. But, diversity is what makes the world so interesting.
>
> The only development environment anybody ever needs is vim anyway. :)
>
OB: religion
EMACS.
:)
LP wrote:
> I dont know what the linux IRC client is called, but I do know there's
> one out there. If you can locate it, just point it to the AccessIRC
> network, and join the channel #woodworking.
It's called KSirc (IRC Client) I haven't used it only because I don't do
IRC. But maybe that would be a great resource.
>
> A ready-to-go windows client can be downloaded from
>
> http://ww.wood-workers.com/users/chipsndust/
>
> and there is some additional info about the channel/irc that might
> also be helpful to you.
Great idea, thanks.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Bill wrote:
> Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the
>> winter, and I'm just not finding a lot of things to do on the Rosegarden
>> project anymore, owing to the rather meager skillset I can bring to the
>> table, and the rather involved nature of the outstanding bugs.
>>
> <snip>
>
> If you really want a cutlist program, why not install Wine
> (http://www.winehq.com) on your Linux system and get either
> CutlistPlus (http://www.cutlistplus.com/) or Sheet Layout
> (http://www.sheetlayout.com)? I realize neither one of those packages
> are free and by your email I can see that you're probably adverse to
> actually paying for software. Of course you could probably make a
> request to warez and get a copy for free. We wouldn't want a
> programmer to be able to make a living as a programmer now would we?
>
> -Bill
We are Linux users, get it. We don't have to pay for software. We can make
our own. Wine sucks and I don't want anything to do with Windblows! It
hasn't been on my box for over 3 years.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Bill wrote:
> EvoDawg <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>> <snip>> >
>>
>> > You Linux folks are too easy. Still suffering from an inferiority
>> > complex I see. Always have to get on your soapbox. Don't worry, I've
>> > been doing the GNU thing since '95 and have compiled several Slackware
>> > kernels since then also. I use both at OSes at work and home. I have
>> > always said that Unix is a better OS, but Windows is a better dev.
>> > environment. I still stand by that today.
>> >
>> > -Bill
>>
>> I'm on no soapbox. I just perfer linux over lining the pocket of a
>> megalomaniac that's trying to rule the world and control the information
>> coming to us. I'm no sheep or cow that can be herded between two fences
>> and driven to follow the rest to their demise. BTW, mandrake linux on hda
>> and slackware on hdb. Compiled both and it's not a big deal. Isn't it
>> funny the amount of market share Microcrap is losing to linux everyday.
>> That has to say something about the OS.
>>
>> Rich
>
> You're no sheep or cow yet you actaully believe MS and/or Bill Gates
> is trying to take over the world? Do you know that for a fact or is
> that what all your other Linux buddies are telling you? Do you realize
> that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has paid over $6 billion in
> grants to aid world health and education? If that's an evil empire,
> then we need more evil empires. And as far as your bogus statement on
> Microsoft losing market share to Linux, here's an article you might be
> interested in http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20031008S0013. I
> already stated my feelings for Linux and Windows. I know both so my
> marketability stays high. That's why I have a six figure salary. In my
> opinion, you're a fool if you pigeonhole yourself to one area of
> expertise.
>
> -Bill
Yes they give billions, billions in computers with Microcrap software on it.
Hmmm, wonder what their real motivation is? Bill Gates does nothing unless
it benefits him and MicroCrap. I'm not bootstrapped to one OS I just choose
to use the better OS, one with less chance of virus and Trojan attacks and
a million times faster.
Six figures, wow. I own a construction company that did 15 million last
year. What do you think my salary was? 3.75/hr.
Oh, they're worried that's why every chance they get you will hear attacks
spewing from their mouths when it comes to Linux. They have just about lost
most of Europe and the rest of world is seeing through their bullshit,
finally!
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Shrikanth S wrote:
> Hi All,
> I have been following this thread with a lot of interest
> as I am involved in the development of a Panel Optimization
> program PLUS 2D (www.nirvanatec.com) myself.
>
> In addition I have been a long time CAD programmer, in the Unix
> environment, but have shifted to the Windows env.
>
> I have found that there is a better return on investment
> on programms written for the windows environment...ie.
> more people buy your programs...
> Though my love for Unix has not deminished in the years,
> and would love to port my application to Unix/Mac/Palm but
> I reckone windows users are a much bigger market and more
> likely to pay_for/buy products, and I find it a little difficult
> to justify the costs involved.
> just my 2cents worth...
Start working in Python with either Tkinter or wxPython GUI
frameworks and your problems will be solved. It is _hands down_
the best cross-platform environment I have ever worked in...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:43:19 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:
>We don't have a cutlist program. My shop is all but closed for the winter,
I'm not a linux user but I applaud your thoughts on this.
If you go to http://www.sheetlayout.com/ there are features and screen
shots to help you get an idea of what a cut list program should do.
Also check http://cutlistplus.com for additional ideas.
Good luck on this. I'm all for anything that will help bring linux to
the mainstream. I know at least one linux user who would be grateful
for something like this and I'll certainly bring your post to his
attention.
Bill wrote:
> EvoDawg <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
> <snip>
>>
>> Thank you for that great explanation. I perfer linux too, and no I'm not
>> a Windows hater, its just when someone bashes linux without ever trying
>> it I get a little pissed. I moved to linux 3 years ago and it's the best
>> move I ever made. It's made computing interesting again. I make the
>> computer do what I want it to do not the other way around. Its rare to
>> ever have a crash and when you do you don't get a blue screen and forced
>> to reboot. Your right vi rules. I'm not a programmer but I do love the
>> command line and writing scripts.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Rich
>
> If you're referring to me bashing Linux, I'd suggest you reread all my
> posts. I never once bashed Linux and I've been using it for nine years
> now. I was bashing the Linux zealots who always seem to want to debate
> how evil Microsoft is and how Linux is the second coming for the
> computing world. When people use words like Microcrap, Windblows, M$,
> etc., it's usually an indication that the person just runs with the
> rest of the Linux zealots and doesn't have an independent thought.
>
> -Bill
My last post was not directed to you Bill. After I wrote it and sent it off
I expected you might think it was. I just wanted to clear that up. I belong
to a couple of Linux OS Help Newsgroups and we constantly get window trolls
clouding our posts. And yes it does upset me. Silvan is a great help in one
of these groups. I believe in Linux and yes I do advocate it's use.
Microsoft upsets me because of their attempts to squash linux and it's
competitors. Because of this attempt and back handedness Linux only grows
bigger and bigger, not sure if this is a good thing.
It's clear to me exactly how Microsoft works and I refuse to support it's
Business Plan. I enjoy working in linux and I'm perplexed by microsoft
folks that can't or won't see the light. Open Source is here to stay no
matter what Microsoft does to Squash it.
That's all I have to say on this subject since this post has gottin way off
topic. At this point all I want to do is try to help Silvan with his
project, if I can.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Silvan wrote:
> EvoDawg wrote:
>
>> Silvan count me in. But like you my computer skills are limited. I can
>> probably do something in Qt3 but I will have to look into it again, I
>> havent messed with code either for some time. I'm more into scripting at
>> this point.
>
> I *vastly* prefer scripting too, but some things have to be done the hard
> way, I'm afraid. I hate GUI stuff, but QT/KDE is pretty easy to get the
> hang of. If you know what you want to do, it's just a matter of grazing
> the ample docs long enough to find the example code you need.
>
> I'll think on this hard and long on my trip. I'm heading for Savannah, GA
> tonight, back sometime around 24 hours from now.
>
> If I think I can really do something, I'll go ahead and register a project
> with SourceForge, so we can get a devel list (to get all this traffic off
> the Wreck) and a CVS repository, then we can go from there. (If nothing
> comes of it in the end, we won't be the only useless project on
> SourceForge... :)
>
> So, important things first, what should we call this thing? The first
> thing popping into my mind is "Kutlist."
Brilliant name!!!!
>
> What, *exactly* should it do? KISS. Get something working, then make it
> pretty. What's the minimum it needs to do in order to be useful?
Check some of the links that have been mentioned in the post.
>
> I'll come back with my answer to that last question after I've had a day
> to ponder it.
>
I'm off to check links, talk with you when you return from your trip.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> - Separate the logic of the program from it's GUI presentation. That
> allows you to start out without a GUI and have it just spit out
Definitely. My thinking has been going in that direction too. We need to
solve the underlying problem first, before even thinking about what
features the thing should have.
> - A _Very_ good and easy to maintain environment for this kind of
> thing is the Python language with Tkinter GUI framework. The
> nice thing about it that your program will run on Win32, Linux,
> FreeBSD, and probably even Macs. I wrote a reasonably complex
> program like this some time ago and was VERY happy with
> environment: http://www.tundraware.com/Software/twander/
Interesting. I'll have a look. I've not done anything with Pyton, but I
think I have a beginner's guide around here somewhere. Python or Ruby, I
forget which. It looks kinda nasty to learn.
> of tries until you get one that is "good enough". You may want
> to do some reaseach on this to see if anyone has done this
> heurstic work in a way that could apply to your problem.
Definitely. I've spent some time thinking about the problem, and
inconsequential is quite an understatement. :)
In fact, I have to admit that after thinking on this for a couple of days, I
picked out a whole list of things that I need to do to clean up messes I've
left behind in Rosegarden before I can think about getting involved with
something this enormous.
Nothing like a seemingly insurmountable challenge to make those old,
irritating bugs look like an appealing use of time, is there? :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Silvan wrote:
> We don't have a cutlist program. ...
I'd be interested in a program like this, but I'm afraid it may prove rather
difficult to write it. Unfortunately I have neither the expertise nor the
time to be of much help with the program.
I did a Google search and found a number of links dealing with the
"stock-cutting problem" or "2-D bin packing problem." This seems to be an
active area of research. See, for instance,
<http://circuits.cf.ac.uk/hopper/hopper.html#top>.
There is a GPL'd program called Linpacker which deals with the problem of
fitting rectangles into a rectangular region of fixed width. This might be
a good starting point. See <http://linpacker.tuxfamily.org/index.html>.
--
Steve
"EvoDawg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>
> > EvoDawg <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >> Bill wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>> >
> >>
> >> > You Linux folks are too easy. Still suffering from an inferiority
> >> > complex I see. Always have to get on your soapbox. Don't worry, I've
> >> > been doing the GNU thing since '95 and have compiled several Slackware
> >> > kernels since then also. I use both at OSes at work and home. I have
> >> > always said that Unix is a better OS, but Windows is a better dev.
> >> > environment. I still stand by that today.
> >> >
> >> > -Bill
> >>
> >> I'm on no soapbox. I just perfer linux over lining the pocket of a
> >> megalomaniac that's trying to rule the world and control the information
> >> coming to us. I'm no sheep or cow that can be herded between two fences
> >> and driven to follow the rest to their demise. BTW, mandrake linux on hda
> >> and slackware on hdb. Compiled both and it's not a big deal. Isn't it
> >> funny the amount of market share Microcrap is losing to linux everyday.
> >> That has to say something about the OS.
> >>
> >> Rich
> >
> > You're no sheep or cow yet you actaully believe MS and/or Bill Gates
> > is trying to take over the world? Do you know that for a fact or is
> > that what all your other Linux buddies are telling you? Do you realize
> > that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has paid over $6 billion in
> > grants to aid world health and education? If that's an evil empire,
> > then we need more evil empires. And as far as your bogus statement on
> > Microsoft losing market share to Linux, here's an article you might be
> > interested in http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20031008S0013. I
> > already stated my feelings for Linux and Windows. I know both so my
> > marketability stays high. That's why I have a six figure salary. In my
> > opinion, you're a fool if you pigeonhole yourself to one area of
> > expertise.
> >
> > -Bill
>
> Yes they give billions, billions in computers with Microcrap software on it.
> Hmmm, wonder what their real motivation is? Bill Gates does nothing unless
> it benefits him and MicroCrap. I'm not bootstrapped to one OS I just choose
> to use the better OS, one with less chance of virus and Trojan attacks and
> a million times faster.
>
> Six figures, wow. I own a construction company that did 15 million last
> year. What do you think my salary was? 3.75/hr.
>
> Oh, they're worried that's why every chance they get you will hear attacks
> spewing from their mouths when it comes to Linux. They have just about lost
> most of Europe and the rest of world is seeing through their bullshit,
> finally!
>
> Rich
> --
> "You can lead them to LINUX
> but you can't make them THINK"
I suggest you get your facts right concerning what the Gates Foundation has
done. The foundation is the largest charity foundation in the world with over
20 billion dollars. The vast majoriy of this money goes out for medical aid to
poor countries. This is not benefiting Microsoft financially. I try to be very
open minded and I have tried Linux and did not like it. I thought it was a
backward step. Windows works very well for my needs and I feel it is very
reasonably priced. You Linux fanatics need to calm down. It's just software.
Yes, you are right. Linux is gaining fast on Windows. I think Linux may be up
to 1% of the market. It may catch up to Apples 3% any day now.
Neal
Silvan wrote:
> EvoDawg wrote:
>
>> Hope you realize what you have gotten yourself into!
>
> Yeah, really. Well, maybe not. It looks like you guys have everything
> under control now, and I can go hide and start bitching about when is it
> finished. :)
>
what a minute you started this now youre going to run and hide? Just think
of how much you will learn.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"