OK at 13:30 EDT the race started.
I glued up a 90 degree face to face joint (cross) using 2 glues in 3 conditions
Rough sawn hard maple face (each side)
Milled hard maple ...
Rough sawn western red cedar ...
Yellow interior carpenter glue
Gorilla glue
All clamped up
at 13:30 tomorrow I will try to break them all
Who wants which in the pool?
Sort of makes me want to go rent a recording strain guage. ;-)
"Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I've got my own test going now. I built some planters and benches in
> western red cedar three years ago. About half the joints with yellow
> glue (tightbond 2), the other half with gorilla glue. The finish on
> the planters is white latex paint, the benches are finished with
> Sikkens Cetol 1
>
> After two winters and lots of weathering, I see no sign of joint
> failure anywhere.
>
When I do outside repairs to my house, I like to use Gorilla glue for the
joints. The foaming action helps to completely seal the joint and keep the
moisture out that eventually causes rot .
How 'bout epoxy?
Built some planters many years ago (~15) outta pine. Used epoxy;
painted them with latex (I think) paint. Even epoxied little daisies
on the fronts. Still lookin' good and holding together.
Renata
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:56:24 -0500, Lazarus Long <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>I've got my own test going now. I built some planters and benches in
>western red cedar three years ago. About half the joints with yellow
>glue (tightbond 2), the other half with gorilla glue. The finish on
>the planters is white latex paint, the benches are finished with
>Sikkens Cetol 1
>
>After two winters and lots of weathering, I see no sign of joint
>failure anywhere.
>
Milled hard maple and yellow carpenter glue!
[email protected] (Gfretwell) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> OK at 13:30 EDT the race started.
> I glued up a 90 degree face to face joint (cross) using 2 glues in 3 conditions
> Rough sawn hard maple face (each side)
> Milled hard maple ...
> Rough sawn western red cedar ...
>
> Yellow interior carpenter glue
> Gorilla glue
> All clamped up
>
> at 13:30 tomorrow I will try to break them all
> Who wants which in the pool?
> Sort of makes me want to go rent a recording strain guage. ;-)
On Thu 21 Aug 2003 05:30:51p, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote in news:[email protected]:
> I use Gorilla glue often when the project will be subjected to a lot
> of water or will be used out side. Titebond II is "WeatherProof" but
> not Water Proof. Gorilla glue is Water Proof.
Now here's where my lack of knowledge about glues is showing. Besides the
waterproof part, I thought one of the differences between Poly and PVA - I
*think* that's the two categories we're talking about here - was setup
time. I was hoping to see someone post about using Gorilla glue when it was
a complicated glue-up and it gave them more time to get all the joints in
place. I can't remember what David Marks uses when he wants a longer setup
time, but I think it was dark.
Dan
[email protected] (Gfretwell) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> OK at 13:30 EDT the race started.
> I glued up a 90 degree face to face joint (cross) using 2 glues in 3
> conditions Rough sawn hard maple face (each side)
> Milled hard maple ...
> Rough sawn western red cedar ...
>
> Yellow interior carpenter glue
> Gorilla glue
> All clamped up
>
> at 13:30 tomorrow I will try to break them all
> Who wants which in the pool?
> Sort of makes me want to go rent a recording strain guage. ;-)
Haven't seen the answer posted yet, so I'm going to bet on
yellow glue as the stronger on the milled wood, and gorilla
on the rough-sawn woods (since it's got some gap-filling
abilities). Overall I bet for the milled maple/yellow
glue combination as the strongest.
John
>Overall I bet for the milled maple/yellow
>glue combination as the strongest.
>
You are the winner! (probably)
I clamped each sample up in a vice, used the "long" craftsman screwdriver for
leverage to control the pull. I measured the tension 1.5" from the joint with a
fish scale and broke them
The milled maple was certainly the winner, being stronger than my scale would
register >24 lbs in a tear but my perception was the yellow glue held on a bit
longer. We will call them a dead heat based on the other results.
I worked up in 2 lb increments first with a shear, trying to spin the cross,
then the same pull straight away tearing the joint
In sawn maple and sawn cedar all of the joints sustained 14 lbs in a "shear"
pull from 1.5" out and they all failed in a 12-14 lb tear. The yellow glue in
the cedar did seem to hold on better in the cedar, resisting the initial pull
but then starting to go slowly eventually tearing out a chunk of wood. I
imagine there was wood damage on the microscopic scale in all of them but this
was the only sample with naked eye wood damage.
Poly glue seems more brittle, snapping clean every time..
My conclusion is if you don't need the water proofing you are wasting your
money on poly glue.
Now I have to run the same test on this $300 worth of cypress I have before I
lay up my counter top. I'm using yellow glue on the maple one.
BTW my 24x24 cutting board came out OK and it hasn't fallen apart yet. I am
guessing the strength is > 13.5 PSI in the joints, based on my test ;-)
On 22 Aug 2003 18:22:38 GMT, [email protected] (Gfretwell) wrote:
I
>imagine there was wood damage on the microscopic scale in all of them but this
>was the only sample with naked eye wood damage.
>Poly glue seems more brittle, snapping clean every time..
I don't see this unless I do something wrong or i am using a wood that is too
oily. the wood tears off when I break it apart. but I see good joints in more
normal woods no matter what glue I use. if the joint is breaking before the wood
something is not right with the glue up or the glue.
--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
I like epoxy. Sometimes it seems like overkill, and since it's
expensive, I'd rather be sure the glue job is big enough to use all
that gets mixed. BTW, these remarks pertain to the West System with
those pumps that automatically dispense the correct proportion. They
make a pretty good amount of mixed epoxy even on 1 push of the pump.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:19:06 GMT, [email protected] (Renata)
wrote:
>How 'bout epoxy?
>
>Built some planters many years ago (~15) outta pine. Used epoxy;
>painted them with latex (I think) paint. Even epoxied little daisies
>on the fronts. Still lookin' good and holding together.
>
>Renata
>
>On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:56:24 -0500, Lazarus Long <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>
>>I've got my own test going now. I built some planters and benches in
>>western red cedar three years ago. About half the joints with yellow
>>glue (tightbond 2), the other half with gorilla glue. The finish on
>>the planters is white latex paint, the benches are finished with
>>Sikkens Cetol 1
>>
>>After two winters and lots of weathering, I see no sign of joint
>>failure anywhere.
>>
I've used gorilla glue a few times and I find no use for it. I have never
had any luck keeping it from setting up in the bottle. Titebond is my glue
of choice and always will be.
"Gfretwell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK at 13:30 EDT the race started.
> I glued up a 90 degree face to face joint (cross) using 2 glues in 3
conditions
> Rough sawn hard maple face (each side)
> Milled hard maple ...
> Rough sawn western red cedar ...
>
> Yellow interior carpenter glue
> Gorilla glue
> All clamped up
>
> at 13:30 tomorrow I will try to break them all
> Who wants which in the pool?
> Sort of makes me want to go rent a recording strain guage. ;-)
In article <[email protected]>,
Dan <[email protected]> writes:
>time. I was hoping to see someone post about using Gorilla glue when it was
>a complicated glue-up and it gave them more time to get all the joints in
>place. I can't remember what David Marks uses when he wants a longer setup
>time, but I think it was dark.
Dan,
Dunno what Mr. Marks uses, but traditionally you'd use hide glue.
Titebond makes one. I know there's also a more modern alternative.
While looking for it, I found this interesting chart comparing the
properties of various glues:
http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/assets/html/glueuse.asp
-BAT
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:30:51 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I use Gorilla glue often when the project will be subjected to a lot of
>water or will be used out side. Titebond II is "WeatherProof" but not Water
>Proof. Gorilla glue is Water Proof.
>
>
>
or oily woods. it really does well there. or if you get glue creep. need long
open times. though yellow glue for most gluing is a better choice.
>
>
--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
If you are gluing them cross grain they all will eventually fail as each
board swells or contracts with climate changes.
For the time being, they all should be strong. Probably the milled maple
will be the best scenario.
"Gfretwell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK at 13:30 EDT the race started.
> I glued up a 90 degree face to face joint (cross) using 2 glues in 3
conditions
> Rough sawn hard maple face (each side)
> Milled hard maple ...
> Rough sawn western red cedar ...
>
> Yellow interior carpenter glue
> Gorilla glue
> All clamped up
>
> at 13:30 tomorrow I will try to break them all
> Who wants which in the pool?
> Sort of makes me want to go rent a recording strain guage. ;-)
>If you are gluing them cross grain they all will eventually fail as each
>board swells or contracts with climate changes.
> For the time being, they all should be strong. Probably the milled maple
>will be the best scenario.
These glue joints are only going to last 24 hours and however minutes it takes
me to break them. I am still waiting to see some wood damage, where the joint
was truly stronger than the wood.
My guess is that the western red cedar is going to be the one that presents
that scenario. (torn wood) My bet is the sawn surface will hold better than the
milled one, simply because there is more surface area on a microscopic scale.
On 21 Aug 2003 23:25:37 GMT, [email protected] (Gfretwell) wrote:
>...My bet is the sawn surface will hold better than the
>milled one, simply because there is more surface area on a microscopic scale.
>
If I may go off on a slightly different track, this reminds me of a
question I've been meaning to ask here for a long time.
For the strongest glue joint, is it better to have the surface rough
or smooth? I've always assumed a rough one (within reason) would be
better, as Greg suggests. But several sources I've seen state quite
emphatically that "smoother is better".
Any comments?
Harry
IMHO as smooth as "WE" are capable of making is probably not too smooth.
Non-porous or too porous is the problem. IMHO "flat and smooth" is the
desired objective.
"Harry Davidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 21 Aug 2003 23:25:37 GMT, [email protected] (Gfretwell) wrote:
>
> >...My bet is the sawn surface will hold better than the
> >milled one, simply because there is more surface area on a microscopic
scale.
> >
>
> If I may go off on a slightly different track, this reminds me of a
> question I've been meaning to ask here for a long time.
>
> For the strongest glue joint, is it better to have the surface rough
> or smooth? I've always assumed a rough one (within reason) would be
> better, as Greg suggests. But several sources I've seen state quite
> emphatically that "smoother is better".
>
> Any comments?
>
> Harry
On 21-Aug-2003, McQualude <[email protected]> wrote:
> Actually penetration would be bad. It is the surfaces that you are gluing
> together. Imagine the wood fibers as soda straws glued together. The uncut
> straws are already 'glued' naturally so penetration is irrelevant. The cut
> surface straws are being put together, the wood glue is replacing nature's
> 'glue'.
Not quite. Whether or not you need penetration depends on the surface energy
in the bonding materials. High surface energy means lots of strength in the bond.
Low energy means less strength. If you want to glue with a weak bond, then you
want to increase the surface area - rough and porous is good. If the bond is strong,
then you can use less area and a smooth surface suffices.
Glues like polyurethanes make things interesting since they are strong as long as
they don't foam. Hence, expanding into an open area doesn't buy you enything
and roughness doesn't work as well. Epoxies, OTOH, are strong and will do a good
job at filling up spaces. Cyanoacrylates don't do a good job at filling up spaces
but are really good at bonding smooth surfaces.
The surface preparation depends on the material, the glue and the desired strength.
I get the best results when I read the label on the glue and follow the instructions.
Mike
Michael Daly spaketh...
> On 21-Aug-2003, McQualude <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Actually penetration would be bad. It is the surfaces that you are
>> gluing together. Imagine the wood fibers as soda straws glued
>> together. The uncut straws are already 'glued' naturally so
>> penetration is irrelevant. The cut surface straws are being put
>> together, the wood glue is replacing nature's 'glue'.
>
> Not quite. Whether or not you need penetration depends on the surface
> energy in the bonding materials. High surface energy means lots of
> strength in the bond. Low energy means less strength. If you want to
> glue with a weak bond, then you want to increase the surface area -
> rough and porous is good. If the bond is strong, then you can use
> less area and a smooth surface suffices.
Good info. I was assuming however that the goal was to achieve a strong
joint.
> I get the best results when I read the label on the
> glue and follow the instructions.
Agreed. It's funny how following the label can save a lot of hard earned
experience <g>.
--
McQualude
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:30:51 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"lindquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I've used gorilla glue a few times and I find no use for it. I have never
>> had any luck keeping it from setting up in the bottle. Titebond is my
>glue
>> of choice and always will be.
>
>I use Gorilla glue often when the project will be subjected to a lot of
>water or will be used out side. Titebond II is "WeatherProof" but not Water
>Proof. Gorilla glue is Water Proof.
I've got my own test going now. I built some planters and benches in
western red cedar three years ago. About half the joints with yellow
glue (tightbond 2), the other half with gorilla glue. The finish on
the planters is white latex paint, the benches are finished with
Sikkens Cetol 1
After two winters and lots of weathering, I see no sign of joint
failure anywhere.
Gfretwell wrote, wondering if this is really what he meant?
> OK at 13:30 EDT the race started.
> at 13:30 tomorrow I will try to break them all
> Who wants which in the pool?
I'll take the Gorilla Glue! But I would have wondered how that heated epoxy
gun system would have faired?
Rich
--
You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK.
Email, remove the DOT
"lindquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've used gorilla glue a few times and I find no use for it. I have never
> had any luck keeping it from setting up in the bottle. Titebond is my
glue
> of choice and always will be.
I use Gorilla glue often when the project will be subjected to a lot of
water or will be used out side. Titebond II is "WeatherProof" but not Water
Proof. Gorilla glue is Water Proof.
If you can, please post pictures on ABPW.
WoodChuck
"Gfretwell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK at 13:30 EDT the race started.
> I glued up a 90 degree face to face joint (cross) using 2 glues in 3
conditions
> Rough sawn hard maple face (each side)
> Milled hard maple ...
> Rough sawn western red cedar ...
>
> Yellow interior carpenter glue
> Gorilla glue
> All clamped up
>
> at 13:30 tomorrow I will try to break them all
> Who wants which in the pool?
> Sort of makes me want to go rent a recording strain guage. ;-)