"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote
: "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote
:
: > People might like to know that to my web site I have just added:
: >
: > Projects - Carving A Tawny Owl
: >
: > Mortising and Tenoning - Sawing a Tenon.
:
: Excellent, as usual.
Thanks for these kind words. Feedback encourages further effort!
: I tried to keep as close to the knife mark as possible, and noticed
: that when the waste has been sawn off, you get a small burnished area
: where the knife mark was that contrasts clearly with the saw marks,
: and it's easy to see if you need to pare a bit to get everything even.
: (I'll never go back to pencil marks for tenon shoulders.)
I call them 'witness marks' - there's something about them in the Marking
Out Notes under Why Use A Knife.
:
: You mentioned that some folks like to use a chisel as a "crutch" to
: give a better point of reference; I've done that before for cutting
: the waste on the outside pins for dovetails, and never really been
: satisfied with it. I always seemed to be left with a small "hump" at
: the transition from the mark to the saw cut.
The difficulty with using a chisel to pre-cut the shoulder, as it were, is
that it seems that one has to put the entire length of the edge into the
groove and proceed from there. It can be quite difficult to start the saw in
this fashion.
: Another point you made was that the cheeks should be cut before the
: shoulders, and that's the way I used to do them, but on this project I
: cut the shoulders first and was very pleased with the results. Could
: you share your reasoning for doing the cheeks first?
I prefer to saw the long shoulders first because one still has a line to
watch when steering the saw downwards. One would have a less positive mark
to work to if the short shoulder was sawn first.
: As for beginning to saw on the near of far side of the piece; for
: the shoulder cuts I naturally fell into beginning the cut on the far
: edge and bringing it towards me. (That's the way I do all my
: crosscutting.) But for cutting the cheeks, I am more comfortable
: angling the piece away from me and starting the cut on the close side,
: and sawing at an angle until I reach the far side (and then reversing
: the piece and repeating the process).
The principle behing starting on the far shoulder is that one has only one
point to watch as you proceed. The problem with starting on the front corner
(very frequently mentioned in books and articles) is that one has to orient
the saw in two planes and get it right from the very begining. Experts do it
without difficulty, of course, but not everyone (including myself these
days) is in practice. An important point is that the far end of the saw
should always pivot (as it were) around the far end of the kerf. This really
needs a couple of drawings to clarify the point.
:
: Again, could you offer me some insight into why you prefer starting
: the tenon at the far edge and bringing it back?
Please see above.
Regards to all,
Jeff G
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Email address is username@ISP
username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
Website www.amgron.clara.net
"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote : > [marking with a knife]
: >
: > I call them 'witness marks' - there's something about them in the
Marking
: > Out Notes under Why Use A Knife.
:
: Just out of curiosity, do you try to saw right on the waste side of
: the line? I was cutting more tenons last night and found that I got
: great results by really trying to "split the line on the waste side"
: (i.e., not leaving the line intact). This still leaves the *slightest*
: bit of a witness mark (burnishing), but no visible line.
If you have the witness mark bordering the sawn surface, you've got it
right. When a right-hander saws a tenon he/she'll be working to the
left-hand side of the knife mark.
:
: > The difficulty with using a chisel to pre-cut the shoulder, as it were,
is
: > that it seems that one has to put the entire length of the edge into the
: > groove and proceed from there. It can be quite difficult to start the
saw in
: > this fashion.
:
: More prone to skipping?
That's about it.
:
: > I prefer to saw the long shoulders first because one still has a line to
: > watch when steering the saw downwards. One would have a less positive
mark
: > to work to if the short shoulder was sawn first.
:
: I'm not sure I follow this. If you have precut the shoulders (short
: shoulders), you have a sawcut to aim for when sawing the cheeks.
A fine point really, provided you have correctly sawn the short shoulder.
:
: Again, thanks for your help, and this discussion. Even if we're the
: only ones reading this, I don't care. :-)
You're welcome. Since Conan started this in the forum, I've left it this
way.
Jeff G
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Email address is username@ISP
username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
Website www.amgron.clara.net
"Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> People might like to know that to my web site I have just added:
>
> Projects - Carving A Tawny Owl
>
> Mortising and Tenoning - Sawing a Tenon.
Excellent, as usual. In reading the new material and re-reading
the other advice you give on doing m&t joints by hand, I had an
observation and question or two. I'm in the midst of a project that
requires a lot of m&ts, and as I'm writing this, I just came in from
the shop from laying out and cutting a half-dozen tenons, so things
are fresh on my mind.
First, on laying out the tenon shoulders, this is the first project
where I've used a marking knife. I used to simply lay them out with
pencil, cut slightly short of the lines and clean up the best I could.
The knife really does simplify things; as long as you can keep your
saw right on the waste side of the mark, you are almost guaranteed a
clean shoulder.
I tried to keep as close to the knife mark as possible, and noticed
that when the waste has been sawn off, you get a small burnished area
where the knife mark was that contrasts clearly with the saw marks,
and it's easy to see if you need to pare a bit to get everything even.
(I'll never go back to pencil marks for tenon shoulders.)
You mentioned that some folks like to use a chisel as a "crutch" to
give a better point of reference; I've done that before for cutting
the waste on the outside pins for dovetails, and never really been
satisfied with it. I always seemed to be left with a small "hump" at
the transition from the mark to the saw cut. But I found that relying
on the knife worked nicely.
Another point you made was that the cheeks should be cut before the
shoulders, and that's the way I used to do them, but on this project I
cut the shoulders first and was very pleased with the results. Could
you share your reasoning for doing the cheeks first? (FWIW, my
current project is a frame and panel construction, and I cut the
grooves first, so they give a good reference point for the depth of
the tenon shoulders.)
As for beginning to saw on the near of far side of the piece; for
the shoulder cuts I naturally fell into beginning the cut on the far
edge and bringing it towards me. (That's the way I do all my
crosscutting.) But for cutting the cheeks, I am more comfortable
angling the piece away from me and starting the cut on the close side,
and sawing at an angle until I reach the far side (and then reversing
the piece and repeating the process).
Again, could you offer me some insight into why you prefer starting
the tenon at the far edge and bringing it back? I know you mentioned
that the saw could skip if started on the near edge, but with the
angle I'm cutting (roughly 30-40 degrees from vertical), it doesn't
seem to be a problem. Is it possibly uniformity, since with dovetails
you can't angle the piece to get the favorable angle of attack?
Anyhow, thanks for your insight and thanks for your continued work
on your website. It's a great source of information.
Chuck Vance
Jeff Gorman wrote:
> Thanks for these kind words. Feedback encourages further effort!
All I can say is if anyone else is reading this thread and has not
yet gone to Jeff's website, he/she should proceed there immediately.
There's a tremendous amount of useful info there.
> [marking with a knife]
>
> I call them 'witness marks' - there's something about them in the Marking
> Out Notes under Why Use A Knife.
Just out of curiosity, do you try to saw right on the waste side of
the line? I was cutting more tenons last night and found that I got
great results by really trying to "split the line on the waste side"
(i.e., not leaving the line intact). This still leaves the *slightest*
bit of a witness mark (burnishing), but no visible line.
> The difficulty with using a chisel to pre-cut the shoulder, as it were, is
> that it seems that one has to put the entire length of the edge into the
> groove and proceed from there. It can be quite difficult to start the saw in
> this fashion.
More prone to skipping?
> I prefer to saw the long shoulders first because one still has a line to
> watch when steering the saw downwards. One would have a less positive mark
> to work to if the short shoulder was sawn first.
I'm not sure I follow this. If you have precut the shoulders (short
shoulders), you have a sawcut to aim for when sawing the cheeks.
> The principle behing starting on the far shoulder is that one has only one
> point to watch as you proceed. The problem with starting on the front corner
> (very frequently mentioned in books and articles) is that one has to orient
> the saw in two planes and get it right from the very begining. Experts do it
> without difficulty, of course, but not everyone (including myself these
> days) is in practice.
Strangely enough, I find that this *helps* me to orient the saw. I
know that if I am cutting straight as the saw passes the two planes at
the near edge, then it will naturally be straight as it moves further up
and down along the tenon's end. Then I can concentrate on sighting
along the bottom of the cut. (It's hard to put into words, but I can
visualize this.)
> An important point is that the far end of the saw
> should always pivot (as it were) around the far end of the kerf. This really
> needs a couple of drawings to clarify the point.
Understanding what you meant by this was a "light bulb" moment for
me on cutting tenons, re-sawing and to some extent, dovetails. Combined
with strict adherence to the rule that you never want to be making a new
sawcut that you cannot see (i.e., don't let your saw get below a
pre-existing kerf on the far side of the board), my sawing has improved
greatly.
It was enlightening when I finally realized that you can really feel
a pivot point on the far side of the board if you are using a light
touch. Let the saw rock on that point at the end of each stroke and you
will naturally be in position for the next stroke.
Again, thanks for your help, and this discussion. Even if we're the
only ones reading this, I don't care. :-)
Chuck Vance
In article <[email protected]>,
"Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> :
> : Again, thanks for your help, and this discussion. Even if we're the
> : only ones reading this, I don't care. :-)
>
> You're welcome. Since Conan started this in the forum, I've left it this
> way.
Well, I made a filter to highlight the response when it came, so I can
assure you that you are not the only ones reading it. I greatly
appreciate Mr. Gorman's work on his website and the information.
I have to say, of all the woodworking skills I am trying to learn,
sawing and chiseling remain the toughest for me. A little while back I
just sat down, marked and cut about 8 tenons for a specific mortise. I
have to admit, the last one was considerably better then the first, but
still, it is incredibly tough to saw to a line, particularly something
like a dovetail line. And people rarely address chisel technique. I know
it looks and sounds simple, but I think a lot is left out; in reality,
chopping a good chunk of wood out takes some practice and technique.
Every once in a while I come across some times which help. For example,
a recent one using your thumbnail to start the saw helped greatly. I
seem to be own my own for the most part for the chisels. Today I chopped
out a couple of large dovetails (on top of table legs for upper drawer
divider) Second one went far faster then the first, but still, I must be
missing something.
Anyway, Mr. Gormans site has been very handy in these types of
handskills. Next, I want to build a shooting board (mostly for picture
frame miters, but maybe for small box miters as well), but not too sure
that Mr. Gormans might be overkill :)