"Buck Turgidson" writes:
> I want to buy a ROS, and am torn between the velcro or PSA model. Being a
> cheap sob, is it possible to buy a PSA sander, and then use one of these
> glue sticks here in my desk drawer to attach paper that I cut myself from
> a
> sheet?
I am a very serious abrasives user.
Building a fiberglass boat means lots of sanding and a lot of abrasives are
needed to get the job done.
Have been forced to use PSA discs for certain applications since there is
nothing else available.
(Try buying 8" discs to fit a foam pad in anything but PSA. 3M, Green
Stik-It in boxes of 25 is basically what is available.)
IMHO, PSA is a complete waste of time and a total PITA if you can get H&L.
Dust is not a problem with H&L, something you can not say about PSA.
H&L pads do not have to be cleaned frequently. Can't say the same about PSA.
I buy 6", H&L discs for less than $30/100, delivered to my door.
If that is too big a cost nut for you, maybe you should think about another
hobby.
HTH
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:24:19 GMT, "Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Would you also say that PSA is preferable over H&L?
Personal choice.
I prefer H&L , as I change grits often. Others like PSA, as disks are
cheaper and they seem to hold slightly better.
You payz your money...
Barry
Couple more thoughts to those already posted.
PSA supposedly produces a flatter surface (particularly for those who
measure things in micro millimeters;-).
A solution to changing grits is to have additional pads (not sanding
disks; the pads that hold the paper) for the sander and stick the
different grits you need for a project onto each pad. Three is
probably a good number, but you might be able to get away w/2 if you
tend to fully use up a disk on a project and can replace it with the
next grit.
That said, if you're an occasional user, just getting started, etc.
and don't want to immediately invest in multiple pads, I'd suggest H&L
since you can change out the grits much more easily and avoid wasting
the non-restickable PSA that you remove.
Renata
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:15:48 GMT, "Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I want to buy a ROS, and am torn between the velcro or PSA model. Being a
>cheap sob, is it possible to buy a PSA sander, and then use one of these
>glue sticks here in my desk drawer to attach paper that I cut myself from a
>sheet?
>
>Sorry if this is a silly question. Just want to explore all angles.
>
todd wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "todd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Snip
> >
> > >
> > > Well, like a number of us woodworkers, I don't do this stuff for a
> living
> > > and I might get the sander out every month or so. For me, H&L is just
> > > easier to deal with than PSA.
> >
> > Easier to deal with? Just stick it on and pull it off. If you leave PSA
> on
> > the sander it can be a little fussy to take off. To combat that, warm the
> > pad up by simply sanding a piece of wood and the sheet will come of
> easily.
>
> You're making my point. It's the leaving the stuff on the sander that I'm
> referring to. I don't have to sand a piece of wood to get it off. Is it a
> big deal? No. Is it slightly easier to deal with? A little. Am I going
> to start a religious war over it? No.
>
> > If I thought I was gonna do a whole bunch,
> > > I'd probably look at PSA because just looking at the Rockler site, PSA
> and
> > > H&L packages are the same price, but there are twice as many PSA sheets
> in
> > a
> > > box.
> >
> > So, the PSA is not twice the price as you get twice as many sheets for
> the
> > same price... Right?
>
> I'm not sure I even know what you're saying, so I'll try to explain this
> again. The boxes of PSA and H&L are the same price. There are twice as
> many PSA sheets in a box. That means (here's where 4 semesters of college
> calculus come in handy) the PSA sheets are half the price as H&L. Now I'm
> making your point.
>
> > > On a related topic...I have a Dewalt DW421 H&L ROS. If I ever did want
> to
> > > go with PSA, is there a replacement pad or perhaps an adapter of some
> > kind?
> >
> > IIRC many of the sand paper manufacturers offer pads for both type papers
> > and DeWalt would probably offer the PSA pad also.
>
> > > todd
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
In effect, that is what Leon said - dumb ass.
> I doubt it'll work. the grab of the glue is critical. too little and
> the dick won't stay on, too much and you'll be pulling chunks out of
> the pad. not to mention that hardware store sheets are the wrong grade
> of paper.
>
> really, find a good supplier of industrial psa disks. they outlast
> normal sandpaper by a very large margin. buy bulk. one box will
> probably last a hobbyist woodworker years.
Would you also say that PSA is preferable over H&L?
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> We've got H&L in our shop. When we have them. Our purchasing agent seems
to
> rarely want to buy them. Of course he's also the owner, shop foreman,
designer
> and payroll manager, so I guess he can do whatever the *&$%$# he wants.
I bet he would let you pay for what ever style you want.
>Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> snip
>
> >
> > Would you also say that PSA is preferable over H&L?
>
>
> 1. Only if you use the same grit one after the other.
> 2. Only if you want to save money.
>
> H & L is great for the hobbyist that changes grits before the sand paper
is
> worn out. He can reapply the paper and reuse it. For the slightly more
> serious user, one that may use 2 or more of the same grit before changing
to
> a finer grit, PSA is the way to go. It normally is 1/2 the price of H&L.
Well, like a number of us woodworkers, I don't do this stuff for a living
and I might get the sander out every month or so. For me, H&L is just
easier to deal with than PSA. If I thought I was gonna do a whole bunch,
I'd probably look at PSA because just looking at the Rockler site, PSA and
H&L packages are the same price, but there are twice as many PSA sheets in a
box.
On a related topic...I have a Dewalt DW421 H&L ROS. If I ever did want to
go with PSA, is there a replacement pad or perhaps an adapter of some kind?
todd
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>
> I am a very serious abrasives user.
>
> Building a fiberglass boat means lots of sanding and a lot of abrasives
are
> needed to get the job done.
>
Snip
>
> IMHO, PSA is a complete waste of time and a total PITA if you can get H&L.
On the flip side of that coin, I don't see the time loss even after using
PSA for 15+ years.
> Dust is not a problem with H&L, something you can not say about PSA.
Perhaps fiberglass dust is a problem or perhaps you purchased old paper.
However I personally have never had a dust problem at all with PSA when
sanding wood. Back in the late 70's I ran an automotive body shop and we
bought the 3M PSA paper in rolls of 250. Even the bondo dust was not a
problem for the PSA papers, as long as the paper was reasonably "fresh" and
had not been setting on the shelf for too long of a period. In the late
80's and early 90's I was the GM for a 3M wholesale distributor and had my
choice and no cost to me to any of the papers that we sold. I became sold
on the PSA paper. PSA out sold H&L probably 10 to 1. On thing that may
play a problem with PSA however is the temperature. I live in SE Texas and
have not had to deal with a cold environment. The colder temperature might
keep the adhesive from sticking well. Personal preference I guess as I so
not benefit to either type of paper except for cost.
> H&L pads do not have to be cleaned frequently. Can't say the same about
PSA.
Humm... I cannot remember the last time that I had to clean the pad. And
after several rolls of paper I don[t recall more than 3 or 4 times.
> I buy 6", H&L discs for less than $30/100, delivered to my door.
Still a little more than my local supplier for 50 PSA individually backed
for $12.88 in 5" or 6" holled or not. I will say though that you are
getting a good price on your H&L.. Who are you buying from?
> If that is too big a cost nut for you, maybe you should think about
another
> hobby.
Not really a cost thing to me as I pass the cost on to the customer. I do
this for a living now. I just prefer the PSA.
"Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> > spray adhesive will work better than a glue stick. buy stuff that will
> > release and not the permanant set.
>
> Thanks. Can I get spray adhesive at my "local home center"?
Yepper's 3M "77" Spray Adhesive is at Lowes
Assuming you are going to buy a ROS with a round pad.
Something to consider, how many 5" or 6" disks can you cut out of a single
sheet of sand paper.
"One",
I believe is the correct answer. I pay 25 cents per PSA sheet bought in
quantities of 50. This is Non Loading Silicon Carbide sand paper. Can you
buy adhesive and sand paper and make your own for less the 25 cents each?
The same quality 9 x 11" paper in Kingspor brand will cost you 48 cents per
sheet in quantities of 50. 120 grit.
"Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I want to buy a ROS, and am torn between the velcro or PSA model. Being a
> cheap sob, is it possible to buy a PSA sander, and then use one of these
> glue sticks here in my desk drawer to attach paper that I cut myself from
a
> sheet?
>
> Sorry if this is a silly question. Just want to explore all angles.
>
>
spray adhesive will work better than a glue stick. buy stuff that will
release and not the permanant set.
imho that velcro stuff is for suckers.
randy
"Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I want to buy a ROS, and am torn between the velcro or PSA model. Being a
> cheap sob, is it possible to buy a PSA sander, and then use one of these
> glue sticks here in my desk drawer to attach paper that I cut myself from
a
> sheet?
>
> Sorry if this is a silly question. Just want to explore all angles.
>
>
I meant I was yankin you chain on the cost issue that you has mentioned.
Both being the same price but twice as many in the box on the PSA's.
BUT,, The PSA's to not restick well at all... I have not tried more than
once or twice. Seems that with dust or no dust, they adhesive works once
and that is it. Years ago when I wholesaled 3M products I had my choice of
anything I wanted from 3M at no cost to me. Even cheaper the "rolls" of
disks that come in quantities of 100 and 250 disks. Those however don't
have as long of a shelf life as do the papers with individual protective
backings. I am sure dust may cause problems but dust or no dust, the
adhesive does not want to work 2 times. I have never had a stick problem in
the last 15 years unless I tried to reapply the PSA paper a second time.
"todd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Just yankin your chain Todd. :~)
>
> I didn't see it as that. You have valid points. I hadn't considered the
> potential problem PSA if the pad is dusty, as Lew pointed out.
> By the way, do you think the OP, Buck Turgidson related to Turd Ferguson?
>
> Todd
>
>
[email protected] writes:
>I doubt it'll work. the grab of the glue is critical. too little and
>the dick won't stay on, too much and you'll be pulling chunks out of
That's what _she_ said.
scott
"Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:46:36 -0600, "xrongor" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >let me get this straight. you only posted because of some primal need to
> >get even? if so, sure. i guess we're even.... ?
> >
> >but psa is still much cheaper than velcro stuff.
> >
>
> An individual sheet may be, but what about changing grits before the
> sheet's worn out? I use PSA, and to be honest, I've discarded good
> sheets simply because it's time for a grit change.
>
> Hook and loop seems to have an advantage there.
if you really want the velcro, im sure you could come up with a way to make
some velcro 'pads' that you use releasable spray adhesive on in combination
with the psa......
couldnt ya?
randy
I see a lot of comments from guys like myself who do both body work and
woodwork.
Right now I don't own a RAS but I've been looking at them in a half hearted
way. I do need to replace my DA though which has been a good soldier for a
long time, but which leaks more air than a fat man at a saurkraut festival.
The whole issue of a new DA is bigger than just buying one because I now
only have a smaller compressor which just gets the sh*t kicked out of it by
a DA and unless today's DA's are more compressor friendly, this just won't
get any better. I've been wondering about the ability of the ROS products
that are out there, to do the work of a DA. Haven't really compared
anything as yet, but am wondering what you guys who dabble in both worlds
like I do might have to think. Will a ROS stand up to the role of a DA for
autobody? These days I paint or repair 2-3 cars a year, on average so we're
not talking daily use, but you know how it gets when you do pull a car in...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
snip
>
> Would you also say that PSA is preferable over H&L?
1. Only if you use the same grit one after the other.
2. Only if you want to save money.
H & L is great for the hobbyist that changes grits before the sand paper is
worn out. He can reapply the paper and reuse it. For the slightly more
serious user, one that may use 2 or more of the same grit before changing to
a finer grit, PSA is the way to go. It normally is 1/2 the price of H&L.
"Mike Marlow" writes:
> Will a ROS stand up to the role of a DA for
> autobody?
No way; however, you do need a fairly large compressor to support a DA.
> These days I paint or repair 2-3 cars a year, on average so we're
> not talking daily use, but you know how it gets when you do pull a car
in...
IMHO, after using a DA, if you bought a ROS and tried to us it for body
work, sooner or later you would get another DA and probably the compressor
to support it.
HTH
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
;~) Thank you Micro.. for pointing out my gross mistake of how many 5
inchers you can get out of a 9x11 sheet. And you can get 2, 6 inchers out
of that sheet also.
I stand corrected.
"Micro*" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Assuming you are going to buy a ROS with a round pad.
> >
> > Something to consider, how many 5" or 6" disks can you cut out of a
single
> > sheet of sand paper.
> >
> > "One",
>
> THREE 5"
>
> I think the answer is, how much do you use the sander and how often do you
> change grits, and last but not least what grits do you use. Try buying 600
> grit H&L at the local borg. I bought a PC H&L sander to sand the peeling
> paint off my ML's garage, thinking that when I was done I could use it for
> WWing, wrong, halfway through the job the hooks wouldn't hold the discs on
> any more so I sanded off the remaining hooks and cut my own discs(3 three
to
> the sheet) and sprayed them with 3m 77, works great. Removal is a breeze
> with a heat gun.
>
>
> --
> "Shut up and keep diggen"
> Jerry
>
>
"Hoyt Weathers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In effect, that is what Leon said - dumb ass.
Well, it was a little less than clear to me when he responded to my first
post what he was trying to say, so I restated it. I even said at the time
that I was making his point by providing a specific example. Do you have
some need to call attention to yourself by being a jag? Leon and I don't
seem to have a problem, so why are you butting in? Go bother someone else.
todd
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:24:19 GMT, "Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> I doubt it'll work. the grab of the glue is critical. too little and
>> the dick won't stay on, too much and you'll be pulling chunks out of
>> the pad. not to mention that hardware store sheets are the wrong grade
>> of paper.
>>
>> really, find a good supplier of industrial psa disks. they outlast
>> normal sandpaper by a very large margin. buy bulk. one box will
>> probably last a hobbyist woodworker years.
>
>
>Would you also say that PSA is preferable over H&L?
>
>
for my needs, yes.
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:24:26 -0600, "xrongor" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Lazarus Long" wrote in message
>>
>>
>> An individual sheet may be, but what about changing grits before the
>> sheet's worn out? I use PSA, and to be honest, I've discarded good
>> sheets simply because it's time for a grit change.
>>
>> Hook and loop seems to have an advantage there.
>
>if you really want the velcro, im sure you could come up with a way to make
>some velcro 'pads' that you use releasable spray adhesive on in combination
>with the psa......
>
>couldnt ya?
>
>randy
>
Actually what I did was buy a velcro pad for my PC sander. The real
purpose is to use buffing pads from Homestead Finishing, not hook 'n
loop sandpaper. But since I had the new pad, I got some sandpaper
too.
Now I can switch as I choose. PSA most often, but depending on the
task at hand, switch to hook 'n loop.
Jeff recently posted the Abralon part number for the H&L pad for PC
ROSs.
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:19:05 -0500, Lazarus Long
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Actually what I did was buy a velcro pad for my PC sander. The real
>purpose is to use buffing pads from Homestead Finishing, not hook 'n
>loop sandpaper. But since I had the new pad, I got some sandpaper
>too.
>
>Now I can switch as I choose. PSA most often, but depending on the
>task at hand, switch to hook 'n loop.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just yankin your chain Todd. :~)
I didn't see it as that. You have valid points. I hadn't considered the
potential problem PSA if the pad is dusty, as Lew pointed out.
By the way, do you think the OP, Buck Turgidson related to Turd Ferguson?
Todd
"todd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
>
> Well, like a number of us woodworkers, I don't do this stuff for a living
> and I might get the sander out every month or so. For me, H&L is just
> easier to deal with than PSA.
Easier to deal with? Just stick it on and pull it off. If you leave PSA on
the sander it can be a little fussy to take off. To combat that, warm the
pad up by simply sanding a piece of wood and the sheet will come of easily.
If I thought I was gonna do a whole bunch,
> I'd probably look at PSA because just looking at the Rockler site, PSA and
> H&L packages are the same price, but there are twice as many PSA sheets in
a
> box.
So, the PSA is not twice the price as you get twice as many sheets for the
same price... Right?
>
> On a related topic...I have a Dewalt DW421 H&L ROS. If I ever did want to
> go with PSA, is there a replacement pad or perhaps an adapter of some
kind?
IIRC many of the sand paper manufacturers offer pads for both type papers
and DeWalt would probably offer the PSA pad also.
>
> todd
>
>
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:46:36 -0600, "xrongor" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>let me get this straight. you only posted because of some primal need to
>get even? if so, sure. i guess we're even.... ?
>
>but psa is still much cheaper than velcro stuff.
>
An individual sheet may be, but what about changing grits before the
sheet's worn out? I use PSA, and to be honest, I've discarded good
sheets simply because it's time for a grit change.
Hook and loop seems to have an advantage there.
My opinion of those that use PSA. Even?
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:48:56 -0600, "xrongor" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>imho that velcro stuff is for suckers.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "todd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Snip
>
> >
> > Well, like a number of us woodworkers, I don't do this stuff for a
living
> > and I might get the sander out every month or so. For me, H&L is just
> > easier to deal with than PSA.
>
> Easier to deal with? Just stick it on and pull it off. If you leave PSA
on
> the sander it can be a little fussy to take off. To combat that, warm the
> pad up by simply sanding a piece of wood and the sheet will come of
easily.
You're making my point. It's the leaving the stuff on the sander that I'm
referring to. I don't have to sand a piece of wood to get it off. Is it a
big deal? No. Is it slightly easier to deal with? A little. Am I going
to start a religious war over it? No.
> If I thought I was gonna do a whole bunch,
> > I'd probably look at PSA because just looking at the Rockler site, PSA
and
> > H&L packages are the same price, but there are twice as many PSA sheets
in
> a
> > box.
>
> So, the PSA is not twice the price as you get twice as many sheets for
the
> same price... Right?
I'm not sure I even know what you're saying, so I'll try to explain this
again. The boxes of PSA and H&L are the same price. There are twice as
many PSA sheets in a box. That means (here's where 4 semesters of college
calculus come in handy) the PSA sheets are half the price as H&L. Now I'm
making your point.
> > On a related topic...I have a Dewalt DW421 H&L ROS. If I ever did want
to
> > go with PSA, is there a replacement pad or perhaps an adapter of some
> kind?
>
> IIRC many of the sand paper manufacturers offer pads for both type papers
> and DeWalt would probably offer the PSA pad also.
> > todd
> >
> >
>
>
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:40:45 -0700, [email protected]
wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:24:19 GMT, "Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>> I doubt it'll work. the grab of the glue is critical. too little and
>>> the dick won't stay on, too much and you'll be pulling chunks out of
>>> the pad. not to mention that hardware store sheets are the wrong grade
>>> of paper.
>>>
>>> really, find a good supplier of industrial psa disks. they outlast
>>> normal sandpaper by a very large margin. buy bulk. one box will
>>> probably last a hobbyist woodworker years.
>>
>>
>>Would you also say that PSA is preferable over H&L?
>>
>>
>
>
>for my needs, yes.
We've got H&L in our shop. When we have them. Our purchasing agent seems to
rarely want to buy them. Of course he's also the owner, shop foreman, designer
and payroll manager, so I guess he can do whatever the *&$%$# he wants.
JP
*************************
Still sans fingerprints.
let me get this straight. you only posted because of some primal need to
get even? if so, sure. i guess we're even.... ?
but psa is still much cheaper than velcro stuff.
randy
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My opinion of those that use PSA. Even?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:48:56 -0600, "xrongor" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >imho that velcro stuff is for suckers.
>
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:15:48 GMT, "Buck Turgidson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I want to buy a ROS, and am torn between the velcro or PSA model. Being a
>cheap sob, is it possible to buy a PSA sander, and then use one of these
>glue sticks here in my desk drawer to attach paper that I cut myself from a
>sheet?
>
>Sorry if this is a silly question. Just want to explore all angles.
>
I doubt it'll work. the grab of the glue is critical. too little and
the dick won't stay on, too much and you'll be pulling chunks out of
the pad. not to mention that hardware store sheets are the wrong grade
of paper.
really, find a good supplier of industrial psa disks. they outlast
normal sandpaper by a very large margin. buy bulk. one box will
probably last a hobbyist woodworker years.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Assuming you are going to buy a ROS with a round pad.
>
> Something to consider, how many 5" or 6" disks can you cut out of a single
> sheet of sand paper.
>
> "One",
THREE 5"
I think the answer is, how much do you use the sander and how often do you
change grits, and last but not least what grits do you use. Try buying 600
grit H&L at the local borg. I bought a PC H&L sander to sand the peeling
paint off my ML's garage, thinking that when I was done I could use it for
WWing, wrong, halfway through the job the hooks wouldn't hold the discs on
any more so I sanded off the remaining hooks and cut my own discs(3 three to
the sheet) and sprayed them with 3m 77, works great. Removal is a breeze
with a heat gun.
--
"Shut up and keep diggen"
Jerry