Dorf needs wiring help...

Dear Rick,

Thanks for all the wonderful info!

> With a few checks, you should be humming. Your motor, on the other (othere
> David?) hand should be humming AND working. (2)
>
> Your motor appears to be connected properly, though you don't show the
> ground wire. And yes, I realize you are using SJO cord of the appropriate
> size, not the little bitty brown wires (though the electrons really don't
> care what color insulation you use).

The little bitty brown wires were there from the factory, they will be
replaced with 12/3 from the magnetic starter.

<snip of a whole bunch of stuff that I, mostly understood>

http://members.rogers.com/moreweb/images/mag.jpg

This box does have a cover with push buttons built into it. The little tiny
green button on the middle right is pushed in by a large green button on the
switch cover to start things up.

In the wiring diagram for the contactor it shows that 2 & 4 should be
connected for single phase wiring. While my picture does not show a wire
there, the "heater" does the connecting for me. Beneath the contactor you
can see the overload protection unit. Protruding from it are two posts that
are screwed in under terminal 2 & 4 on the contactor. The switch for
breaking the circuit is on the overload, it is the red button on the lower
right and is actuated by a big red mushroom button on the switchplate cover.

Does this additional info make my wiring layout work correctly?

Thanks,

David.

Every neighbourhood has one, in mine, I'm him.

Remove the "splinter" from my email address to email me.

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Have you looked for a web site about this motor. There are several sites that
have info on American made motor wiring. Perhaps the Italians are as
enlightened.

snip of pun goobly guk

David:
i sent an email to my B.I.L. who is an engineer over at Leeson Motors
in grafton wi.

actually i sent him a copy of the OP, and the links to the
pics...might have a solid answer by tomorrow night.

T

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 08:27:54 GMT, bonomi@c-ns. (Robert Bonomi) Crawled
out of the shop and said. . .:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>Traves W. Coppock <newsgroups-AT-farmvalleywoodworks-DOT-com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>On 03 Oct 2003 04:43:17 GMT, [email protected] (Gfretwell) Crawled
>>out of the shop and said. . .:
>>
>>>Have you looked for a web site about this motor. There are several sites that
>>>have info on American made motor wiring. Perhaps the Italians are as
>>>enlightened.
>>
>>
>>ok, here goes another pun thread, , ,
>>
>>the italians may not be as enLIGHTened as one might like to think.
>>perhaps they thought to hard about the engineering of this motor and
>>had a BLACKOUT?
>
>
>Given that it's an A.C. motor, I can state authoritatively:
> "That's re-volt-ing!"
>
>

LOL

im sure someone will get a CHARGE out of this one. . .

T

Good morning David,

Comments here, there and everywhere.


"David F. Eisan" wrote ... in part ...

> Dear All,
>
> I am used to Leeson and Baldor motors where you open the cover and there
are
> only three wires. You throw some wire nuts on the white-white,
black-black,
> green-green and Keef's your list mom.


Ah, those days of yesteryear ... the Duke of URLs happily churning out links
to ... well, everything. Come back Keefer, all is forgiven! (1)

> And I find it hard to beleive that they have been so kind as to suggest
> where the wires should go with the two dinky brown wires. From the image,
> does it look that simple? Plug black and white into where the little brown
> wires are, with the green ground going to the green/yellow at the top of
the
> bus in the image?

You may believe ... see note below.

> I have my little red P1 and P2 where I am pretty sure juice flows in from
> the grid of mystery, and M1 and M2 where the motor should be wired to.

With a few checks, you should be humming. Your motor, on the other (othere
David?) hand should be humming AND working. (2)

Your motor appears to be connected properly, though you don't show the
ground wire. And yes, I realize you are using SJO cord of the appropriate
size, not the little bitty brown wires (though the electrons really don't
care what color insulation you use).

The ~ symbol is the line input ... stands for a sine wave, which in this
case indicates the connection to your AC power source. If you number the
terminal blocks 1-5 from left to right (or as in your picture, lower left to
upper right), you'll connect your line to 1 and 4, and ground to 5.

If you need to reverse the motor direction, you will need to swap the
position of the wires marked A and C (move A (large black wire) to 4, move C
(large red wire) to 1). Sure beats putting a 180° twist in the belt!


On your overload, we'll take the power side first, then the coil side.

Contactor:
You show M1 on the contactor, NOT the overload ... which is the device below
the contactor (has the red reset button. You also do not appear to have
jumpered 2 and 4 on the overload (bottom left and bottom center. This allows
current to flow through all three heaters (shown as two right angle wire
turns inside the boxes).

Coil:
If the red wire on the right side is connected from 95 (overload normally
closed contact) to A2 (second contactor coil connection), and 4 is connected
to 96, you should be able to pull toe contactor in. Wired this way, however,
the ONLY way to shut it off is to kill the power to the input. I personally
don't like this sort of arrangement; I'd rather have the Start and STOP
buttons co-located. You can easily wire a remote start-stop setup, but
beware that the voltage on the buttons will be 220 VAC. Connect a normally
open pushbutton (properly rated, of course) across the contactor auxiliary
(that's the thing with the green button). One wire to 3, the other to 4. You
have placed an external switch in parallel with this auxiliary. Mark this
switch START (it helps if it has a green button on it). Then, remove the
wire from 4 to 96 (I think I see it there), and wire a normally closed
switch (STOP) in place of the wire you just removed. It's helpful to have
this button RED. If you notice, you have two switches connected to 4 ...
this can be a single wire running from the contactor box to your remote
start-stop box.

You can purchase a start-stop box with the required switches (in the correct
colors), ready to wire and mount. Since the only current flow through these
switches and the associated wiring is the contactor coil, you're only
looking at a few hundred milliamps (less than 1 amp).

David, I hope this helps with your restoration project.

Regards,

Rick


(1) Yes, I know.

(2) I have heard that electrical devices hum because they don't know the
words. This is incorrect; they do know the words, they just don't want to
admit it.

Check to see if this motor is for use in US or Europe, US uses 60 cycles
and Europe 50, could be a big problem if mismatched.

Can't help you with the electrics, but was just thinking what a bummer it must
be for you to have that machine so close to firing up, but not being able to
because of wiring hassles! I had the same problem when I got my MiniMax
bandsaw; had to run a new line from the breaker, mount a new plug, and build a
pigtail before I could throw the switch. The torture! :-)

--
To reply, change the chemical designation to its common name.

"David F. Eisan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:0vofb.7596$ko%[email protected]...
> Dear Rick,
>
> Thanks for all the wonderful info!

Just glad to be here and pass along what I can.
>
> The little bitty brown wires were there from the factory, they will be
> replaced with 12/3 from the magnetic starter.

Probably just enough wire to test run the motor (without a load you can get
away with all sorts of silly things like that ... for a while.


> <snip of a whole bunch of stuff that I, mostly understood>

What parts are unclear? I'm trying to improve my writing ... the curse of
most technical people is an inability to communicate outside their
speciality ... I'm trying to break out of that mold.


> http://members.rogers.com/moreweb/images/mag.jpg
>
> This box does have a cover with push buttons built into it. The little
tiny
> green button on the middle right is pushed in by a large green button on
the
> switch cover to start things up.

Saw that little green button and figured that would do it.

>
> In the wiring diagram for the contactor it shows that 2 & 4 should be
> connected for single phase wiring. While my picture does not show a wire
> there, the "heater" does the connecting for me. Beneath the contactor you
> can see the overload protection unit. Protruding from it are two posts
that
> are screwed in under terminal 2 & 4 on the contactor. The switch for
> breaking the circuit is on the overload, it is the red button on the lower
> right and is actuated by a big red mushroom button on the switchplate
cover.
>

First, unless you have a wire or a link (big flat piece of wire bent into a
"U" (not ewe!) shape) connecting 2 and 4, you won't get anything. IF 2 is
connected to 4 below the overload unit (called a heater ... because when
current flows, it heats little coils inside the unit. Too much current makes
too much heat causing a bi-metallic spring to sprong and release the switch
held closed.

You have a multimeter (digital or analog)? If so, you can press in the black
"buttons" right below the Danfoss name on the contactor (without power
applied ... please), and measure the resistance from 1 to 3 on the top
(should be a short), and from 5 on top to 6 on the bottom of the overload
(again should be a short).

No meter? Then connect a light bulb (one 220 volt bulb or two 110 volt bulbs
in series) where the motor leads are supposed to connect. Apply power, press
green button ... light should come on. Press red button, light should go
off. (I think you knew that!)

I haven't worked with this type of motor starter in such a long time, I
forgot the reset button is also the off button. You don't need to do further
on/off wiring, unless you feel a strong need.




> Does this additional info make my wiring layout work correctly?

I think, Sir, that you indeed have tamed the wild electron. Well done, Sir,
well done.


> Thanks,

And thanks to you for all of your contributions to the public mayhem
commonly mistaken for Rec.Norm !

>
> David.

Rick

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 01:59:45 GMT, "David F. Eisan"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>And I find it hard to beleive that they have been so kind as to suggest
>where the wires should go with the two dinky brown wires. From the image,
>does it look that simple?

Yes.

If you care, try re-drawing the circuit, stretching the terminal block
out into individual dots to represent the conenctions, and then
comparing it to a standard circuit in a motors book (Try the old
woodworking machines site)

It's a basic single phase motor circuit. One start cap, one run cap.
The "SE" blob is a timer to cut the start winding in, then switch it
out.

OTOH, I'd _never_ wire a workshop motor in with that grade of
chocolate block connector. Get some decent stuff, with reasonably
sized connectors and a shim under the clamp screw noses. If you put
multi-strand cable into a bare-screw connector like that, it minces
the end and you get a poor connection. Run a few HP through it, and
it'll start getting hot.


>Background, this is a made in Italy, Lafert 3 hp, 220 volt, single phase,
>metric flange mount motor for my Wadkin/Bursgreen 20" bandsaw.

BTW - when was your bandsaw made ?

>Looks correct?

Check the power rating for the overload relay.

Add a safety microswitch to the door(s) over the wheels and blade.
This should be a proper industrially-rated switch for machine
guarding; they're a "forced disconnect" (you won't care, your insurers
might) but also they're a bit better sealed - and bandsaws are a
high-dust environment that will kill a normal V3 switch.

If you care, you can borrow a contactor way to drive a DC.

--
Smert' spamionam

On 03 Oct 2003 04:43:17 GMT, [email protected] (Gfretwell) Crawled
out of the shop and said. . .:

>Have you looked for a web site about this motor. There are several sites that
>have info on American made motor wiring. Perhaps the Italians are as
>enlightened.


ok, here goes another pun thread, , ,

the italians may not be as enLIGHTened as one might like to think.
perhaps they thought to hard about the engineering of this motor and
had a BLACKOUT?

Traves
*G*

sorry gang,,,but with this one i just had to

In article <[email protected]>,
Traves W. Coppock <newsgroups-AT-farmvalleywoodworks-DOT-com> wrote:
>
>
>On 03 Oct 2003 04:43:17 GMT, [email protected] (Gfretwell) Crawled
>out of the shop and said. . .:
>
>>Have you looked for a web site about this motor. There are several sites that
>>have info on American made motor wiring. Perhaps the Italians are as
>>enlightened.
>
>
>ok, here goes another pun thread, , ,
>
>the italians may not be as enLIGHTened as one might like to think.
>perhaps they thought to hard about the engineering of this motor and
>had a BLACKOUT?


Given that it's an A.C. motor, I can state authoritatively:
"That's re-volt-ing!"

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:39:59 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> Crawled out of the shop and said. . .:

snip

>Smert' spamionam

death to spamers?