Almost set to go to give it a try.Have a steel chain to attach the victim
to, it runs down thru a 2X3 set over the top of the bucket. 4 pieces of
re-bar in each corner of the bucket. My question is, when using a bolt to
attach the chain to the victim, is an ordinary bolt ok? Seems the bolts I
have are the ordinary type,zinc bolts that you get at the Borg. Have read
where you shouldn't use stainless steel in this set up so wondering about
other types of bolts other than just steel. Will post a pic of my set up on
abpw. Thanks.
--
Paul O.
[email protected]
"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<QmWoc.18189$k24.1277@fed1read01>...
> http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm
That site is largely rubbish. Although chrome compounds _are_ a
problem, and there will be chrome salts in the waste from long-term
electrolysis baths that use stainless anodes, it's false (and
deceptively so) to start shouting about hexavalent chromium.
I went through this whole thing some time ago. Do an advanced search
using my name and "electrolysis" in the subject line. The best group
to talk to about this is the chemists, not the woodworkers (though we
have a few chemists among the group).
See, e.g., http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=5bc4c82c.0402040724.62ab39f7%40posting.google.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dinsubject:electrolysis%2Bauthor:hylourgos%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3D5bc4c82c.0402040724.62ab39f7%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D1
[sorry for wordwrap]
Most all the chemists say the hexavalent chromium scare from the movie
was a bunch of crap, and that electrolysis output of it is negligible.
But I'm no chemist, so you should read more on your own (from
chemists, not WWers) and decide yourself.
H.
"Paul O." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Almost set to go to give it a try.Have a steel chain to attach the victim
> to, it runs down thru a 2X3 set over the top of the bucket. 4 pieces of
> re-bar in each corner of the bucket. My question is, when using a bolt to
> attach the chain to the victim, is an ordinary bolt ok? Seems the bolts I
> have are the ordinary type,zinc bolts that you get at the Borg. Have read
> where you shouldn't use stainless steel in this set up so wondering about
> other types of bolts other than just steel. Will post a pic of my set up on
> abpw. Thanks.
AArDvarK wrote:
>>Better that the chromates are entering your water table than mine. :)
>
>
>
> Better none at all anywhere man...
> A.
>
>
Agreed.
--
No BoomBoom for me! - [email protected]
Paul O. wrote:
> Almost set to go to give it a try.Have a steel chain to attach the victim
> to, it runs down thru a 2X3 set over the top of the bucket. 4 pieces of
> re-bar in each corner of the bucket. My question is, when using a bolt to
> attach the chain to the victim, is an ordinary bolt ok? Seems the bolts I
> have are the ordinary type,zinc bolts that you get at the Borg. Have read
> where you shouldn't use stainless steel in this set up so wondering about
> other types of bolts other than just steel. Will post a pic of my set up on
> abpw. Thanks.
>
Will we see these pics on the evening news?
j4
On Fri, 14 May 2004 16:30:45 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
wrote:
>In fact, I have been unable to ignite the hydrogen at the point it escapes from
>the fluid surface.
I've managed to do it. If you put greasy metal into the tank and
there's plenty of washing soda in there, then you can build up a
pretty stable foamy scum layer on the surface. If you stick a match
into it, it will ignite with the usual hydrogen pop.
OTOH, I can fart considerably louder.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Fri, 14 May 2004 16:30:45 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >In fact, I have been unable to ignite the hydrogen at the point it escapes from
> >the fluid surface.
>
> I've managed to do it. If you put greasy metal into the tank and
> there's plenty of washing soda in there, then you can build up a
> pretty stable foamy scum layer on the surface. If you stick a match
> into it, it will ignite with the usual hydrogen pop.
>
> OTOH, I can fart considerably louder.
>
>
Gee, with the hydrogen being compared to the Hindenberg disaster, I'm
glad I'm not around you. So tell the truth---beens or beer? :-)
As a side question, if your using stainless anodes which produce deadly
chromium and the process produces massive amounts of hydrogen
gas....would this be a weapon of mass destruction or a dirty bomb?
What happens as a result of the ERR process using stainless as contacts/
electrodes down in the electrolyte is the release of chromium content
from* the stainless steel into the electrolyte liquid, entirely poisonous
and cancer causing it is hence illegal to dump it anywhere.
http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm
Alex
Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2004 20:36:45 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>>>http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
>>>>http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm
>>>>
>>>>Alex
>>>>
>>>>Thats the site I read about the stainless and decided to go with the
>>>
>>>re-bar.
>>
>>
>>I figured. Me too so I'll deal with the dreadful sludge.
>>Alex
>>
>
>
>
> Thanks for the links, Alex.
>
> After reading the information on the pages, which lack any authoritative references, and assuming the chromate cautions to be of
> approximately the same validity and weight as the hydrogen/oxygen cautions, I'll stick with using the stainless anodes.
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS USA
Better that the chromates are entering your water table than mine. :)
Tim
--
No BoomBoom for me! - [email protected]
"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<xvZoc.18235$k24.8467@fed1read01>...
>> Thanks for the links, Alex.
>> After reading the information on the pages, which lack any
authoritative
>> references, and assuming the chromate cautions to be of
approximately
>> the same validity and weight as the hydrogen/oxygen cautions, I'll
stick
>> with using the stainless anodes.
>
>
> Well ... enjoy yourself then... I really don't think the man would be crocking
> the public to tell you the truth, he has indicated something of significant
> importance that is illegal and of poisonous danger to the public and yourself
> if you go dumping that shit in the sewers. Now I know I havn't done it myself
> but I think if you carry such an easy and fast attitude about such a warning
> it would then also be easy enough to merit just a shot of research to find out,
> and possibly avoid causing yourself cancer and poisoning the environment,
> as well as breaking the law, even if it seems minute to you.
>
> Alex
I'm not on either side here, but to help increase the knowledge of the
chemistry of electrolysis, this might help:
http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/links/electrolysis_explanation.phtml
They don't say anything bad about using Stainless. They actually use
it in their experiment. This is *NOT* to say the other guy is wrong,
just offering up another paper.
doug.
On Wed, 12 May 2004 16:32:30 -0700, "Paul O." <[email protected]> wrote:
>Almost set to go to give it a try.Have a steel chain to attach the victim
>to, it runs down thru a 2X3 set over the top of the bucket. 4 pieces of
>re-bar in each corner of the bucket. My question is, when using a bolt to
>attach the chain to the victim, is an ordinary bolt ok? Seems the bolts I
>have are the ordinary type,zinc bolts that you get at the Borg. Have read
>where you shouldn't use stainless steel in this set up so wondering about
>other types of bolts other than just steel. Will post a pic of my set up on
>abpw. Thanks.
Au Contraire - I don't know where the suggestion against stainless steel came from, but that is THE thing to use for your anodes
(positive terminal, red clamp). You will find that the rebar will be quickly eaten away and make a whale of a mess while being
digested. I got a length of thin stainless steel shim stock several inches wide and lined the perimeter of the tank, extending below
the water level, with that. Works great, outlasts carbon steel many times over, and reduces the amount of residue that collects in
the bottom and the amount of scum that collects on the top.
For the connection to the "victim" ordinary bolts should work fine. I generally connect the battery charger clamp (negative
terminal, black clamp) directly to the victim. Haven't noticed any adverse effects either to the victim or to the clamp, even when
the clamp is immersed. However, if you allow the positive clamp, or any portion thereof, to be immersed in the solution, be prepared
to replace the clamp at frequent intervals. It WILL be eaten away. Also, be VERY, VERY careful NOT to connect the (Positive, Red)
terminal to the "victim" or you will learn what the word victim really means. DAMHIKT.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA
On Thu, 13 May 2004 20:36:45 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
>> > http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm
>> >
>> > Alex
>> >
>> > Thats the site I read about the stainless and decided to go with the
>> re-bar.
>
>
>I figured. Me too so I'll deal with the dreadful sludge.
>Alex
>
Thanks for the links, Alex.
After reading the information on the pages, which lack any authoritative references, and assuming the chromate cautions to be of
approximately the same validity and weight as the hydrogen/oxygen cautions, I'll stick with using the stainless anodes.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA
"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Paul O. wrote:
> > Almost set to go to give it a try.Have a steel chain to attach the
victim
> > to, it runs down thru a 2X3 set over the top of the bucket. 4 pieces of
> > re-bar in each corner of the bucket. My question is, when using a bolt
to
> > attach the chain to the victim, is an ordinary bolt ok? Seems the bolts
I
> > have are the ordinary type,zinc bolts that you get at the Borg. Have
read
> > where you shouldn't use stainless steel in this set up so wondering
about
> > other types of bolts other than just steel. Will post a pic of my set up
on
> > abpw. Thanks.
> >
>
> Will we see these pics on the evening news?
> j4
>
Well, I can call and see if they want to run it for ya j4 :-)
"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:QmWoc.18189$k24.1277@fed1read01...
>
> What happens as a result of the ERR process using stainless as contacts/
> electrodes down in the electrolyte is the release of chromium content
> from* the stainless steel into the electrolyte liquid, entirely poisonous
> and cancer causing it is hence illegal to dump it anywhere.
>
> http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
> http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm
>
> Alex
>
> Thats the site I read about the stainless and decided to go with the
re-bar.
[email protected]
Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Thu, 13 May 2004 23:17:07 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Well ... enjoy yourself then... I really don't think the man would be
>>crocking the public to tell you the truth, he has indicated something of
>>significant importance that is illegal and of poisonous danger to the
>>public and yourself if you go dumping that shit in the sewers. Now I know
>>I havn't done it myself but I think if you carry such an easy and fast
>>attitude about such a warning it would then also be easy enough to merit
>>just a shot of research to find out, and possibly avoid causing yourself
>>cancer and poisoning the environment, as well as breaking the law, even if
>>it seems minute to you.
>>
>>Alex
>>
>
> Alex, all I can say is that the author of that site pretty much destroyed
> his credibility with me in his discussion/cautions about the
> hydrogen/oxygen hazard. For example, reference to the Hindenburg disaster
> in this context is laughable.
>
> Yes, a hydrogen/oxygen mixture can be dangerous. As I have some experience
> with design and testing hydrogen fueled rocket engines, I was concerned
> about the release of hydrogen gas before beginning use of this process. In
> a large scale process, his cautions would certainly be appropriate. On the
> scale of a 5 gal bucket and a 12 volt battery charger that rarely exceeds
> 2 to 3 amperes during the process, his/her cautions border on hysteria.
> The rate of hydrogen gas production is so low that it almost immediately
> disperses to
> a concentration that will not support combustion. In fact, I have been
> unable to ignite the hydrogen at the point it escapes from the fluid
> surface. After dispersion, it is even less likely to ignite.
>
> Well, what about the hydrogen concentration over time in a closed room?
> Couldn't that build up to an explosive mixture? Hydrogen gas is devilishly
> difficult to confine. It will leak though any but the most carefully
> designed and constructed seals. It will dissipate from any area normally
> designed for human occupation as fast is it is formed.
>
> Yes, chromates do constitute a health hazard. Warfarin (rat poison)
> ingestion also constitutes a health hazard. Yet, Warfarin is commonly
> prescribed for persons recovering from a heart attack. No, I'm not trying
> to say that chromates could or should be ingested. What I am saying is
> that by ignoring scale, the author is "crying 'WOLF'". It is (or appears
> to be) the same hysteria as that attached to the danger of airborne dust
> particles exploding in a woodshop. You'll die of lung cancer long before
> the dust explodes. However, the operators of a grain elevator had better
> be well aware of and take active precautions against the danger.
>
> Why should I believe his cautions about chromates are any less hysterical
> than his cautions about hydrogen?
I'd say just be careful about selectively trapping the hydrogen. I remember
in high school we generated hydrogen by electrolysis, capturing it in a
flask. Every once in a while one went "bang" quite spectacularly--the
teacher made us wrap them in towels to capture the shards (and a few _did_
go "bang"--one kid didn't have a towel so he used a sweatshirt that he
found under an unoccupied desk--turned out when he unfolded it and got a
look at it that it belonged to the school bully--after the bang he
carefully folded it and returned it to where he found it, shards of flask
and all). I don't think that's a real danger unless you've managed to
contrive a geometry that makes the hydrogen go into one vessel that already
contains air and the oxygen into another, but if you manage to screw things
up just right it _can_ happen.
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS USA
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Thu, 13 May 2004 23:17:07 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well ... enjoy yourself then... I really don't think the man would be crocking
>the public to tell you the truth, he has indicated something of significant
>importance that is illegal and of poisonous danger to the public and yourself
>if you go dumping that shit in the sewers. Now I know I havn't done it myself
>but I think if you carry such an easy and fast attitude about such a warning
>it would then also be easy enough to merit just a shot of research to find out,
>and possibly avoid causing yourself cancer and poisoning the environment,
>as well as breaking the law, even if it seems minute to you.
>
>Alex
>
Alex, all I can say is that the author of that site pretty much destroyed his credibility with me in his discussion/cautions about
the hydrogen/oxygen hazard. For example, reference to the Hindenburg disaster in this context is laughable.
Yes, a hydrogen/oxygen mixture can be dangerous. As I have some experience with design and testing hydrogen fueled rocket engines, I
was concerned about the release of hydrogen gas before beginning use of this process. In a large scale process, his cautions would
certainly be appropriate. On the scale of a 5 gal bucket and a 12 volt battery charger that rarely exceeds 2 to 3 amperes during the
process, his/her cautions border on hysteria. The rate of hydrogen gas production is so low that it almost immediately disperses to
a concentration that will not support combustion. In fact, I have been unable to ignite the hydrogen at the point it escapes from
the fluid surface. After dispersion, it is even less likely to ignite.
Well, what about the hydrogen concentration over time in a closed room? Couldn't that build up to an explosive mixture? Hydrogen gas
is devilishly difficult to confine. It will leak though any but the most carefully designed and constructed seals. It will dissipate
from any area normally designed for human occupation as fast is it is formed.
Yes, chromates do constitute a health hazard. Warfarin (rat poison) ingestion also constitutes a health hazard. Yet, Warfarin is
commonly prescribed for persons recovering from a heart attack. No, I'm not trying to say that chromates could or should be
ingested. What I am saying is that by ignoring scale, the author is "crying 'WOLF'". It is (or appears to be) the same hysteria as
that attached to the danger of airborne dust particles exploding in a woodshop. You'll die of lung cancer long before the dust
explodes. However, the operators of a grain elevator had better be well aware of and take active precautions against the danger.
Why should I believe his cautions about chromates are any less hysterical than his cautions about hydrogen?
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA
On 14 May 2004 07:12:26 -0700, [email protected] (Doug) wrote:
>,;"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<xvZoc.18235$k24.8467@fed1read01>...
>,;>> Thanks for the links, Alex.
>,;>> After reading the information on the pages, which lack any
>,;authoritative
>,;>> references, and assuming the chromate cautions to be of
>,;approximately
>,;>> the same validity and weight as the hydrogen/oxygen cautions, I'll
>,;stick
>,;>> with using the stainless anodes.
>,;>
>,;>
>,;> Well ... enjoy yourself then... I really don't think the man would be crocking
>,;> the public to tell you the truth, he has indicated something of significant
>,;> importance that is illegal and of poisonous danger to the public and yourself
>,;> if you go dumping that shit in the sewers. Now I know I havn't done it myself
>,;> but I think if you carry such an easy and fast attitude about such a warning
>,;> it would then also be easy enough to merit just a shot of research to find out,
>,;> and possibly avoid causing yourself cancer and poisoning the environment,
>,;> as well as breaking the law, even if it seems minute to you.
>,;>
>,;> Alex
>,;
>,;
>,;I'm not on either side here, but to help increase the knowledge of the
>,;chemistry of electrolysis, this might help:
>,;
>,;http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/links/electrolysis_explanation.phtml
>,;
>,;They don't say anything bad about using Stainless. They actually use
>,;it in their experiment. This is *NOT* to say the other guy is wrong,
>,;just offering up another paper.
When they stated that there would be evolution of C02 at the anode
they lost all credibility.
Any chemist will tell you that those H+ ions at the anode will end up
as bicarbonate.
On Mon, 17 May 2004 02:56:53 +0100, Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 14 May 2004 16:30:45 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>In fact, I have been unable to ignite the hydrogen at the point it escapes from
>>the fluid surface.
>
>I've managed to do it. If you put greasy metal into the tank and
>there's plenty of washing soda in there, then you can build up a
>pretty stable foamy scum layer on the surface. If you stick a match
>into it, it will ignite with the usual hydrogen pop.
>
>OTOH, I can fart considerably louder.
Andy, you might want to be careful about that. Next time it may be true:
http://www.snopes.com/humor/follies/methane.htm
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA
On Mon, 17 May 2004 02:41:33 GMT, KS <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>> On Fri, 14 May 2004 16:30:45 GMT, Tom Veatch <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In fact, I have been unable to ignite the hydrogen at the point it escapes from
>> >the fluid surface.
>>
>> I've managed to do it. If you put greasy metal into the tank and
>> there's plenty of washing soda in there, then you can build up a
>> pretty stable foamy scum layer on the surface. If you stick a match
>> into it, it will ignite with the usual hydrogen pop.
>>
>> OTOH, I can fart considerably louder.
>>
>>
>Gee, with the hydrogen being compared to the Hindenberg disaster, I'm
>glad I'm not around you. So tell the truth---beens or beer? :-)
>
>As a side question, if your using stainless anodes which produce deadly
>chromium and the process produces massive amounts of hydrogen
>gas....would this be a weapon of mass destruction or a dirty bomb?
Hey, Hey!! Keep it quiet. We don't want to alert Homeland Security.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA
Thanks for the links, Alex.
After reading the information on the pages, which lack any authoritative
references, and assuming the chromate cautions to be of approximately
the same validity and weight as the hydrogen/oxygen cautions, I'll stick
with using the stainless anodes.
Well ... enjoy yourself then... I really don't think the man would be crocking
the public to tell you the truth, he has indicated something of significant
importance that is illegal and of poisonous danger to the public and yourself
if you go dumping that shit in the sewers. Now I know I havn't done it myself
but I think if you carry such an easy and fast attitude about such a warning
it would then also be easy enough to merit just a shot of research to find out,
and possibly avoid causing yourself cancer and poisoning the environment,
as well as breaking the law, even if it seems minute to you.
Alex