So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
bats that it seems like a simple solution exists. I am not a
woodworker so I can not judge the problems with drilling a very small
hole in the center of the bat (or the piece of wood that would be
turned into the bat) down the lenght of the bat. If this could be
done, a polymer fiber (nylon, polycarbonate, etc.) placed in this hole
would hold all the pieces of a broken bat together and prevent most of
the injuries.
Any technical woodworking problems in doing this?
Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
>>bats that it seems like a simple solution exists.
>
> The simple solution is already used by little leagues and colleges.
> Aluminum. I've seen them dented but I've never seen one break.
>
> Besides if they get all of the steroids and HGH out of baseball (not
> likely), MLB is going to need to find a way to get all the scrawny 180
> pound ball players to hit the ball out of the park.
>
> That loud PING is not quite the same though.
>
> Mike O.
The problem with Al is that of line drives. Since more energy is
transfered, a line drive may well break bones or kill someone. That's
one reason why they're not allowed in MLB.
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
p4o2 <[email protected]> wrote in news:0a6e96cf-70b6-4d3f-ab45-
[email protected]:
>
> On the subject of aluminum bats. I am sure that if there was money to
> be made, one of the manufactures of the bats could design and make a
> bat that would duplicate the characteristics of wood bats.
I actually had one that's not too far off. It's a rather heavy bat,
though, but it clunks instead of pings. I don't remember seeing it
recently, so it might have gone away...
Obligitory woodworking content: I made a bat rack and hung my bats on it.
(A dowel rod thick enough to allow two bats to rest on one peg usually
provides enough space between the bats.)
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
"p4o2" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:6f00efa0-8be7-4005-acce-8564ce6ef456@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists. I am not a
> woodworker so I can not judge the problems with drilling a very small
> hole in the center of the bat (or the piece of wood that would be
> turned into the bat) down the lenght of the bat. If this could be
> done, a polymer fiber (nylon, polycarbonate, etc.) placed in this hole
> would hold all the pieces of a broken bat together and prevent most of
> the injuries.
>
> Any technical woodworking problems in doing this?
And then add hand cuffs to the bat so that the batter cannot accidentally
let go of the bat and let it fly in an unintended direction.
Life is full of surprises, you make life boring by trying to fix everything.
On Jul 7, 11:10=A0pm, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > krw wrote:
> > > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > > says...
> > >> Puckdropper wrote:
> > >>> Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
> > >>>news:[email protected]:
>
> > >>>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]>
> > >>>> wrote:
>
> > >>>>> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of
> > >>>>> broken
> > >>>>> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists.
>
> > >>>> The simple solution is already used by little leagues and
> > >>>> colleges.
> > >>>> Aluminum. =A0 I've seen them dented but I've never seen one break.
>
> > >>>> Besides if they get all of the steroids and HGH out of baseball
> > >>>> (not
> > >>>> likely), MLB is going to need to find a way to get all the
> > >>>> scrawny
> > >>>> 180 pound ball players to hit the ball out of the park.
>
> > >>>> That loud PING is not quite the same though.
>
> > >>>> Mike O.
>
> > >>> The problem with Al is that of line drives. =A0Since more energy is
> > >>> transfered, a line drive may well break bones or kill someone.
> > >>> That's
> > >>> one reason why they're not allowed in MLB.
>
> > >> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
> > >> difference between no injury and broken bones or death? =A0Might
> > >> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people
> > >> who
> > >> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls
> > >> hit
> > >> from a _wooden_ bat.
>
> > > Yes. =A0It's not just the energy but the pitcher's reaction time. =A0=
A
> > > fastball off the bat would hit the pitcher before he could possibly
> > > defend himself. Pitchers are expensive.
>
> > Uh huh. =A0Ten percent makes the difference between reacting and not
> > reacting? =A0If the margin is that close then they need to increase the
> > distance to the plate.
>
> Apparently. =A0Changing the distance to the pitchers mound changes the
> entire game.
>
> > >> NCAA changed the rules a long time ago to limit the ball speed
> > >> coming
> > >> out of an aluminum bat.
>
> > > The 55MPH speed limit was abolished years ago. =A0;-)
>
> > Traffic laws have zip all to do with bat design.
>
> Whoosh!
>
> > >> This whole aluminum bat controversy is something that grandstanding
> > >> politicians use to appear to be Doing Something and has no real
> > >> relation to safety. =A0Of course there's a "ban aluminum bats"
> > >> movement, but take _anything_ and there's some bunch of loons who
> > >> think it should be banned.
>
> > > You're nutz. =A0Politicians have nothing to do (drugs being the
> > > obvious exception) with MLB rules.
>
> > No, they have to do with the laws in several states that prohibit the
> > use of aluminum bats.
>
> Ok, you now owe us a citation that shows "several states" that have =A0
> banned aluminum bats from MLB (or any other) games.
>
> --
> Keith- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
On the subject of aluminum bats. I am sure that if there was money to
be made, one of the manufactures of the bats could design and make a
bat that would duplicate the characteristics of wood bats.
I can drive a golf ball over 300 yds. Who can't right. So I went into a
golf shop that had a net and speed/distance radar device. I thought if I
could get a a titanium head on a stiff shaft it might be even lighter and
further better. I took one swing with their $600 driver....and left the
store in one piece with all my money.
"p4o2" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:6f00efa0-8be7-4005-acce-8564ce6ef456@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists. I am not a
> woodworker so I can not judge the problems with drilling a very small
> hole in the center of the bat (or the piece of wood that would be
> turned into the bat) down the lenght of the bat. If this could be
> done, a polymer fiber (nylon, polycarbonate, etc.) placed in this hole
> would hold all the pieces of a broken bat together and prevent most of
> the injuries.
>
> Any technical woodworking problems in doing this?
>
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
"ron" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I can't say for sure but it seem like the MLB would frown on this
> practice. Sounds an awful lot like corking a bat.
>
>
If the bat's not one piece all the way down, how can you know what's inside
it without taking it apart? You can X-ray it, but that would only show
there's something in the bat... but not if there's anything illegal.
One suggestion I have would be to put a small band (made of a plastic or
vinyl?) around the bat near its midpoint, at the place where there's
usually a band drawn on the bat anyway. Should the bat split, the band
would slow or stop the transfer of force and perhaps the bat would stay
together better.
Anyone want to give me $500,000 to do some research?
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
The increased use of Maple bats is seen as the root cause of the
significant increase in broken bats.
This is due in no small part to a new pest beetle [emerald ash borer]
killing Ash trees (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?
storyId=92222323 "Maple, Ash Baseball Bats May Strike Out"). Talk of
the Nation Science Friday.
"The problem is that when maple bats break, they shatter dangerously,
sending shards of wood flying."
While we might well come up with a solution, it turns out that Major
League Baseball includes a rule requiring a "solid wood" bat.
The maker of Louisville Slugger bats talks about the history of the
Maple bat (from Late 90's/Barry Bonds) as well as their efforts to
think of a solution to the splitting problems. performance issues
(Maple stays harder/smoother longer than Ash).
From what I heard these experts saying, it is unlikely that we are
going to come up with a solution they haven't thought of and studied.
If you have an opportunity, listen to teh show and learn a little
about the differences between the two species and the reasons the
"fixes" that work won't pass current MLBB muster - they want thicker
handles.
Enjoy
In article <[email protected]>, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>It's a weight issue. It's tough ot make AL dense enough. Stainless
>would work I suppose. ;-)
Aluminum is already denser than any wood.
Doug Brown wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, krw
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>It's a weight issue. It's tough ot make AL dense enough. Stainless
>>>would work I suppose. ;-)
>>
>>Aluminum is already denser than any wood.
>
>
> I'm not arguing, but is that true?
>
> What I've found so far is that the density of Al is 0.098lb/in^3 (approx
> 1.56 oz/in^3 and that white ash is 41 lbs/ft^3, which should work out to
> about 0.379 oz/in^3, unless my math is completely f'd. I got some of the
> info from here; http://woodsgood.ca/woodDensity.htm
> and some from here:
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_density_of_aluminum
>
> I am fully prepared to acknowledge I may have really messed up on the math
> but....
>
>
Does Ash float?
Aluminum doesn't...
In article <[email protected]>, "Doug Brown" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, krw
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>It's a weight issue. It's tough ot make AL dense enough. Stainless
>>>would work I suppose. ;-)
>>
>> Aluminum is already denser than any wood.
>
>I'm not arguing, but is that true?
Most woods float. Does aluminum? <g>
>
>What I've found so far is that the density of Al is 0.098lb/in^3 (approx
>1.56 oz/in^3 and that white ash is 41 lbs/ft^3, which should work out to
>about 0.379 oz/in^3, unless my math is completely f'd.
Well, 1.56 is greater than 0.379, so I'd have to say aluminum is much denser
than ash, by a factor of about four.
> I got some of the
>info from here; http://woodsgood.ca/woodDensity.htm
>and some from here:
>http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_density_of_aluminum
>
>I am fully prepared to acknowledge I may have really messed up on the math
>but....
You made the math more complicated than it needed to be, but your results are
correct: aluminum is much denser than ash.
Simpler version:
Aluminum 0.098 lb/in^3 * 1728 in^3/ft^3 = 169 lb/ft^3
Ash 41 lb/ft^3
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Puckdropper wrote:
> > Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of
> >>> broken
> >>> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists.
> >>
> >> The simple solution is already used by little leagues and colleges.
> >> Aluminum. I've seen them dented but I've never seen one break.
> >>
> >> Besides if they get all of the steroids and HGH out of baseball
> >> (not
> >> likely), MLB is going to need to find a way to get all the scrawny
> >> 180 pound ball players to hit the ball out of the park.
> >>
> >> That loud PING is not quite the same though.
> >>
> >> Mike O.
> >
> > The problem with Al is that of line drives. Since more energy is
> > transfered, a line drive may well break bones or kill someone.
> > That's
> > one reason why they're not allowed in MLB.
>
> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
> difference between no injury and broken bones or death? Might
> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people who
> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls hit
> from a _wooden_ bat.
Yes. It's not just the energy but the pitcher's reaction time. A
fastball off the bat would hit the pitcher before he could possibly
defend himself. Pitchers are expensive.
> NCAA changed the rules a long time ago to limit the ball speed coming
> out of an aluminum bat.
The 55MPH speed limit was abolished years ago. ;-)
> This whole aluminum bat controversy is something that grandstanding
> politicians use to appear to be Doing Something and has no real
> relation to safety. Of course there's a "ban aluminum bats" movement,
> but take _anything_ and there's some bunch of loons who think it
> should be banned.
You're nutz. Politicians have nothing to do (drugs being the
obvious exception) with MLB rules.
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > says...
> >> Puckdropper wrote:
> >>> Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
> >>> news:[email protected]:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of
> >>>>> broken
> >>>>> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists.
> >>>>
> >>>> The simple solution is already used by little leagues and
> >>>> colleges.
> >>>> Aluminum. I've seen them dented but I've never seen one break.
> >>>>
> >>>> Besides if they get all of the steroids and HGH out of baseball
> >>>> (not
> >>>> likely), MLB is going to need to find a way to get all the
> >>>> scrawny
> >>>> 180 pound ball players to hit the ball out of the park.
> >>>>
> >>>> That loud PING is not quite the same though.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike O.
> >>>
> >>> The problem with Al is that of line drives. Since more energy is
> >>> transfered, a line drive may well break bones or kill someone.
> >>> That's
> >>> one reason why they're not allowed in MLB.
> >>
> >> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
> >> difference between no injury and broken bones or death? Might
> >> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people
> >> who
> >> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls
> >> hit
> >> from a _wooden_ bat.
> >
> > Yes. It's not just the energy but the pitcher's reaction time. A
> > fastball off the bat would hit the pitcher before he could possibly
> > defend himself. Pitchers are expensive.
>
> Uh huh. Ten percent makes the difference between reacting and not
> reacting? If the margin is that close then they need to increase the
> distance to the plate.
Apparently. Changing the distance to the pitchers mound changes the
entire game.
> >> NCAA changed the rules a long time ago to limit the ball speed
> >> coming
> >> out of an aluminum bat.
> >
> > The 55MPH speed limit was abolished years ago. ;-)
>
> Traffic laws have zip all to do with bat design.
Whoosh!
> >> This whole aluminum bat controversy is something that grandstanding
> >> politicians use to appear to be Doing Something and has no real
> >> relation to safety. Of course there's a "ban aluminum bats"
> >> movement, but take _anything_ and there's some bunch of loons who
> >> think it should be banned.
> >
> > You're nutz. Politicians have nothing to do (drugs being the
> > obvious exception) with MLB rules.
>
> No, they have to do with the laws in several states that prohibit the
> use of aluminum bats.
Ok, you now owe us a citation that shows "several states" that have
banned aluminum bats from MLB (or any other) games.
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > says...
> >> krw wrote:
> >>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> >>> says...
> >>>> Puckdropper wrote:
> >>>>> Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
> >>>>> news:[email protected]:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of
> >>>>>>> broken
> >>>>>>> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The simple solution is already used by little leagues and
> >>>>>> colleges.
> >>>>>> Aluminum. I've seen them dented but I've never seen one
> >>>>>> break.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Besides if they get all of the steroids and HGH out of baseball
> >>>>>> (not
> >>>>>> likely), MLB is going to need to find a way to get all the
> >>>>>> scrawny
> >>>>>> 180 pound ball players to hit the ball out of the park.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That loud PING is not quite the same though.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mike O.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The problem with Al is that of line drives. Since more energy
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> transfered, a line drive may well break bones or kill someone.
> >>>>> That's
> >>>>> one reason why they're not allowed in MLB.
> >>>>
> >>>> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
> >>>> difference between no injury and broken bones or death? Might
> >>>> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people
> >>>> who
> >>>> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls
> >>>> hit
> >>>> from a _wooden_ bat.
> >>>
> >>> Yes. It's not just the energy but the pitcher's reaction time. A
> >>> fastball off the bat would hit the pitcher before he could
> >>> possibly
> >>> defend himself. Pitchers are expensive.
> >>
> >> Uh huh. Ten percent makes the difference between reacting and not
> >> reacting? If the margin is that close then they need to increase
> >> the
> >> distance to the plate.
> >
> > Apparently. Changing the distance to the pitchers mound changes the
> > entire game.
>
> Yep, but if it only saves one life . . .
So does keeping the wood bat. Aluminum changes the whole game.
It's a much faster bat so imparts more energy to the ball.
> >>>> NCAA changed the rules a long time ago to limit the ball speed
> >>>> coming
> >>>> out of an aluminum bat.
> >>>
> >>> The 55MPH speed limit was abolished years ago. ;-)
> >>
> >> Traffic laws have zip all to do with bat design.
> >
> > Whoosh!
>
> Huh? I really don't know what point you think you were making. Are
> you suggesing that the rules concerning the performance of bats have
> been rescinded? If so you might want to inform the NCAA as they seem
> to be unaware of doing so.
Never mind. ...not worth 'splainin'.
> >>>> This whole aluminum bat controversy is something that
> >>>> grandstanding
> >>>> politicians use to appear to be Doing Something and has no real
> >>>> relation to safety. Of course there's a "ban aluminum bats"
> >>>> movement, but take _anything_ and there's some bunch of loons who
> >>>> think it should be banned.
> >>>
> >>> You're nutz. Politicians have nothing to do (drugs being the
> >>> obvious exception) with MLB rules.
> >>
> >> No, they have to do with the laws in several states that prohibit
> >> the
> >> use of aluminum bats.
> >
> > Ok, you now owe us a citation that shows "several states" that have
> > banned aluminum bats from MLB (or any other) games.
>
> So far the only one that has passed was NYC, but several states have
> legislation in progress.
Cite.
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> krw wrote:
> ...
>
> > Cite.
>
> Give it a rest--google for it if you really don't know and want to...
You made the assertion, support it.
> OTOMH, I know at least ND has legislation pending, several states have
> various measures in place for high schools being required (mostly by
> their state HS athletic associations as opposed to actual legislation.
We were talking about MLB. I can understand schools banning such
things. Some communities ban all baseball bats at certain times of
the day, but that has nothing to do with the speed of the bat.
> I'm not sure the actual status in NYC -- Bloomberg was going to veto it,
> but the initial passage was by a large enough margin to override. Where
> it stands in the process, though, I've not followed.
I'm surprised. Bloomberg is an idiot.
--
Keith
In article <ce11b678-56bb-447d-96f1-
[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> On Jul 10, 11:32=A0am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > "p4o2" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > On the subject of aluminum bats. I am sure that if there was money to
> > be made, one of the manufactures of the bats could design and make a
> > bat that would duplicate the characteristics of wood bats.
> > ******************
> >
> > It would be too hard to veneer the aluminum bats. =A0<G>
>=20
> There is a measurement in the making of golf heads (COR) that could be
> applied to Al and wood bats. The choice of an Al alloy, wall
> thickness, etc. that would match the measured COR of wood bats would
> be possible. I would also guess that different wood bats would have
> different COR's?
It's a weight issue. It's tough ot make AL dense enough. Stainless=20
would work I suppose. ;-)
--=20
Keith
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> In article <[email protected]>, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
> >It's a weight issue. It's tough ot make AL dense enough. Stainless
> >would work I suppose. ;-)
>
> Aluminum is already denser than any wood.
I guess that's true. They could make aluminum bats heavier, but
don't (need to).
--
Keith
"ron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I can't say for sure but it seem like the MLB would frown on this practice.
>Sounds an awful lot like corking a bat.
>
I believe you are right!
Zz Yzx <[email protected]> writes:
>> Similar to a hole for a lamp, I'd cut the
>>stock in half, make a groove, glue the halves back together, then turn
>>the piece.
>
>The rules explicitly prohibit "composite" bats of any kind. They must
>be made out of one piece of solid wood.
>
>Although, I did see one company known for making hard maple bats
>offering composite bamboo bats. Still, not legal in the Bigs.
>
Oddly enough, the rules for USSSA softball used to allow "three-sided" bats,
not that I've ever seen one.
scott
Doug Brown wrote:
> "cavelamb himself" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Doug Brown wrote:
>>
>>>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article <[email protected]>, krw
>>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It's a weight issue. It's tough ot make AL dense enough. Stainless
>>>>>would work I suppose. ;-)
>>>>
>>>>Aluminum is already denser than any wood.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm not arguing, but is that true?
>>>
>>>What I've found so far is that the density of Al is 0.098lb/in^3 (approx
>>>1.56 oz/in^3 and that white ash is 41 lbs/ft^3, which should work out to
>>>about 0.379 oz/in^3, unless my math is completely f'd. I got some of the
>>>info from here; http://woodsgood.ca/woodDensity.htm
>>>and some from here:
>>>http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_density_of_aluminum
>>>
>>>I am fully prepared to acknowledge I may have really messed up on the
>>>math but....
>>
>>
>>Does Ash float?
>>
>>Aluminum doesn't...
>
>
> Duh! OK, but my ash doesn't float :).
>
>
>
Well then, you might be in the ball park!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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/|\ | /\ _\o \o | o/ O/_ /\ | /|\
/ \ / \ |\ /) | ( \ /o\ / ) | (\ / | / \ / \
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"p4o2" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:6f00efa0-8be7-4005-acce-8564ce6ef456@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists. I am not a
> woodworker so I can not judge the problems with drilling a very small
> hole in the center of the bat (or the piece of wood that would be
> turned into the bat) down the lenght of the bat. If this could be
> done, a polymer fiber (nylon, polycarbonate, etc.) placed in this hole
> would hold all the pieces of a broken bat together and prevent most of
> the injuries.
>
> Any technical woodworking problems in doing this?
Heard the announcers on a radio game discussing this issue the other day.
They were of the opinion that it was because of the type of wood now being
used. Hickory is in short supply, Ash is discouraged because of the danger
of spreading the Ash Borer with the transport of the Ash from source to
manufacturer. I believe they said that many of the bats are now being made
of Maple, which is breaking easier.
Tom G
[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Most woods float. Does aluminum? <g>
Well, lignum vitae (ironwood) doesn't float. Neither does knobthorn or
some of the rosewoods (Dalbergia sp.). There are a lot of woods that are
so dense they don't float. Wikipedia says the density of lignum vitae is
between 1.28 and 1.37 grams per cubic centimeter.
Aluminum (from wikipedia) has a density of 2.70 gr/cc.
Titanium = 4.5 gr/cc.
Iron = 7.87 gr/cc.
Lead = 11.34 gr/cc.
Gold = 19.3 gr/cc
Uranium = 19.1 gr/cc
Balsa = 100-200 kg/cubic meter (you do the math).
--
sm@ug dot ichorfang
at gmail dot com
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> J. Clarke wrote:
> ...
>> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the difference between no injury and
>> broken bones or death? ...
>
> Recall, however, that KE ~ V^2 so a 20% in energy translates into over 40% higher velocity. That
> much difference would make a _big_ difference in reaction time for evasion/self-defense...
I think that you need to check your math.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
> difference between no injury and broken bones or death? Might
> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people who
> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls hit
> from a _wooden_ bat.
With out a ratio of aluminum to wooden bats involved in the 2 out of 3
deaths being caused by wooden bats, one cannot draw any kind of conclusion.
It could mean that aluminum bats are way more dangerous if 1/10 of the
bats being used in the study were aluminum. Or it could mean that wooden
bats are more dangerous if 1/10 of the bats were wooden.
IF the amount of wooden bats were exactly double that of aluminum they would
both be equally dangerous. If the number of aluminum bats being used were
more than half the number of wooden bats bats then the aluminum bats would
be more dangerous.
p4o2 wrote:
> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists. I am not a
> woodworker so I can not judge the problems with drilling a very small
> hole in the center of the bat (or the piece of wood that would be
> turned into the bat) down the lenght of the bat. If this could be
> done, a polymer fiber (nylon, polycarbonate, etc.) placed in this hole
> would hold all the pieces of a broken bat together and prevent most of
> the injuries.
>
> Any technical woodworking problems in doing this?
I'm sure it can be done, but I wouldn't want to be the guy holding the
bat when it breaks.
Take few sections of 2x2 and join them end to end with 1/4" rope. Now
swing it. (Don't forget to wear your helmet and pads -- you'll need them.)
On Jul 10, 11:32=A0am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "p4o2" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> On the subject of aluminum bats. I am sure that if there was money to
> be made, one of the manufactures of the bats could design and make a
> bat that would duplicate the characteristics of wood bats.
> ******************
>
> It would be too hard to veneer the aluminum bats. =A0<G>
There is a measurement in the making of golf heads (COR) that could be
applied to Al and wood bats. The choice of an Al alloy, wall
thickness, etc. that would match the measured COR of wood bats would
be possible. I would also guess that different wood bats would have
different COR's?
On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]> wrote:
>So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
>bats that it seems like a simple solution exists.
The simple solution is already used by little leagues and colleges.
Aluminum. I've seen them dented but I've never seen one break.
Besides if they get all of the steroids and HGH out of baseball (not
likely), MLB is going to need to find a way to get all the scrawny 180
pound ball players to hit the ball out of the park.
That loud PING is not quite the same though.
Mike O.
On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]> wrote:
>So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
>bats that it seems like a simple solution exists. I am not a
>woodworker so I can not judge the problems with drilling a very small
>hole in the center of the bat (or the piece of wood that would be
>turned into the bat) down the lenght of the bat. If this could be
>done, a polymer fiber (nylon, polycarbonate, etc.) placed in this hole
>would hold all the pieces of a broken bat together and prevent most of
>the injuries.
>
>Any technical woodworking problems in doing this?
The bat-mods described below are worth a lot more money, the list of clients is almost endless.
using a forrestner bit, drilling as much as a 1" hole down the centerline of the bat starting from the grip end.
then go as far as 1/3 the length of the bat boring out material. Then fill the hole with a cork rod turned to be a press
fit held in by epoxy. finish the entrance of the bore to perfectly match the surrounding wood, detail bat with Louisville
Slugger identification and trademarks, and go watch your favorite team doing batting practice to look for a prospective
client to demo your new and better bat.......
On Jul 6, 12:17=A0pm, Mike Paulsen <[email protected]> wrote:
> p4o2 wrote:
> > So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
> > bats that it seems like a simple solution exists. I am not a
> > woodworker so I can not judge the problems with drilling a very small
> > hole in the center of the bat (or the piece of wood that would be
> > turned into the bat) down the lenght of the bat. If this could be
> > done, a polymer fiber (nylon, polycarbonate, etc.) placed in this hole
> > would hold all the pieces of a broken bat together and prevent most of
> > the injuries.
>
> > Any technical woodworking problems in doing this?
>
> I'm sure it can be done, but I wouldn't want to be the guy holding the
> bat when it breaks.
>
> Take few sections of 2x2 and join them end to end with 1/4" rope. Now
> swing it. (Don't forget to wear your helmet and pads -- you'll need them.=
)
That sounds ok to me. The batter should be the one in danger not some
kid in the stands. I do not think a strand of something like fishing
line would be much of a "cork" (but I do not know, it would be easy to
test for an effect)
Puckdropper wrote:
> Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of
>>> broken
>>> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists.
>>
>> The simple solution is already used by little leagues and colleges.
>> Aluminum. I've seen them dented but I've never seen one break.
>>
>> Besides if they get all of the steroids and HGH out of baseball
>> (not
>> likely), MLB is going to need to find a way to get all the scrawny
>> 180 pound ball players to hit the ball out of the park.
>>
>> That loud PING is not quite the same though.
>>
>> Mike O.
>
> The problem with Al is that of line drives. Since more energy is
> transfered, a line drive may well break bones or kill someone.
> That's
> one reason why they're not allowed in MLB.
So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
difference between no injury and broken bones or death? Might
interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people who
have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls hit
from a _wooden_ bat.
NCAA changed the rules a long time ago to limit the ball speed coming
out of an aluminum bat.
This whole aluminum bat controversy is something that grandstanding
politicians use to appear to be Doing Something and has no real
relation to safety. Of course there's a "ban aluminum bats" movement,
but take _anything_ and there's some bunch of loons who think it
should be banned.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
J. Clarke wrote:
...
> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people who
> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls hit
> from a _wooden_ bat.
...
That's a result of the population from which the statistics are derived
as opposed to saying anything about differences between aluminum vis a
vis wood bats.
--
dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
> ...
>
>> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people
>> who
>> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls
>> hit
>> from a _wooden_ bat.
> ...
>
> That's a result of the population from which the statistics are
> derived as opposed to saying anything about differences between
> aluminum vis a vis wood bats.
And what's the difference between the "populations"? No reputable
study has shown a statistically significant difference in injury rates
between aluminum and wooden bats, and the studies that show a
difference in ball speed (which is at best ten percent) are based on
older bat designs before the rules requiring that bats be tested to
deliver approximately the same ball speed as wood were implemented.
By the way, since 1982 there have been 15 "catastrophic injuries"
among high school and college players, out of 9.5 million
participants. That includes both aluminum and wooden bats. You're
far more likely to die in an automobile accident on the way to or from
the game than to die from being hit with a baseball struck by an
aluminum bat.
But twits like you just _have_ to "fix" nonexistent problems by
outlawing things.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
J. Clarke wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people
>>> who
>>> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls
>>> hit
>>> from a _wooden_ bat.
>> ...
>>
>> That's a result of the population from which the statistics are
>> derived as opposed to saying anything about differences between
>> aluminum vis a vis wood bats.
>
> And what's the difference between the "populations"? No reputable
> study has shown a statistically significant difference in injury rates
> between aluminum and wooden bats, and the studies that show a
> difference in ball speed (which is at best ten percent) are based on
> older bat designs before the rules requiring that bats be tested to
> deliver approximately the same ball speed as wood were implemented.
>
> By the way, since 1982 there have been 15 "catastrophic injuries"
> among high school and college players, out of 9.5 million
> participants. That includes both aluminum and wooden bats. You're
> far more likely to die in an automobile accident on the way to or from
> the game than to die from being hit with a baseball struck by an
> aluminum bat.
>
> But twits like you just _have_ to "fix" nonexistent problems by
> outlawing things.
Not I...I'm all for wooden bats simply for them being tradition but
nowhere did I say anything whatsoever that could be construed as saying
aluminum bats should be outlawed.
Engineering studies aside, there's no question in my mind there's a
significant difference in the game between using wood and metal--all one
has to do is watch the summer wood-league bats and how the college
players who are using them for the first time in competitive play cope.
Many of the recent incidents I can recall aren't actually
players/coaches but fans in stands.
The "population difference" in my thinking has to do w/ several things--
1. Age of players (professional vs college/high school/youth)
2. Skill of players (highly segregated by time get past high school)
3. Relative numbers in various categories
4. Numbers of individuals in spectator categories of the various other
categories which changes at-risk population in biased manner.
--
--
dpb wrote:
...
> Not I...I'm all for wooden bats simply for them being tradition but
> nowhere did I say anything whatsoever that could be construed as saying
> aluminum bats should be outlawed.
...
In interests of full disclosure... :)
I actually do think metal bats should be illegal at the college and
higher levels, not owing to the safety issue but because I'm a
traditionalist(*). The action, of course, should be taken as part of
the rules of the game, not as any legislative action.
(*) There should be no such abomination as a "designated hitter",
either, of course... :)
--
krw wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>> Puckdropper wrote:
>>> Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of
>>>>> broken
>>>>> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists.
>>>>
>>>> The simple solution is already used by little leagues and
>>>> colleges.
>>>> Aluminum. I've seen them dented but I've never seen one break.
>>>>
>>>> Besides if they get all of the steroids and HGH out of baseball
>>>> (not
>>>> likely), MLB is going to need to find a way to get all the
>>>> scrawny
>>>> 180 pound ball players to hit the ball out of the park.
>>>>
>>>> That loud PING is not quite the same though.
>>>>
>>>> Mike O.
>>>
>>> The problem with Al is that of line drives. Since more energy is
>>> transfered, a line drive may well break bones or kill someone.
>>> That's
>>> one reason why they're not allowed in MLB.
>>
>> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
>> difference between no injury and broken bones or death? Might
>> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people
>> who
>> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls
>> hit
>> from a _wooden_ bat.
>
> Yes. It's not just the energy but the pitcher's reaction time. A
> fastball off the bat would hit the pitcher before he could possibly
> defend himself. Pitchers are expensive.
Uh huh. Ten percent makes the difference between reacting and not
reacting? If the margin is that close then they need to increase the
distance to the plate.
>> NCAA changed the rules a long time ago to limit the ball speed
>> coming
>> out of an aluminum bat.
>
> The 55MPH speed limit was abolished years ago. ;-)
Traffic laws have zip all to do with bat design.
>> This whole aluminum bat controversy is something that grandstanding
>> politicians use to appear to be Doing Something and has no real
>> relation to safety. Of course there's a "ban aluminum bats"
>> movement, but take _anything_ and there's some bunch of loons who
>> think it should be banned.
>
> You're nutz. Politicians have nothing to do (drugs being the
> obvious exception) with MLB rules.
No, they have to do with the laws in several states that prohibit the
use of aluminum bats.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
krw wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>> krw wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>> says...
>>>> Puckdropper wrote:
>>>>> Mike O. <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of
>>>>>>> broken
>>>>>>> bats that it seems like a simple solution exists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The simple solution is already used by little leagues and
>>>>>> colleges.
>>>>>> Aluminum. I've seen them dented but I've never seen one
>>>>>> break.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides if they get all of the steroids and HGH out of baseball
>>>>>> (not
>>>>>> likely), MLB is going to need to find a way to get all the
>>>>>> scrawny
>>>>>> 180 pound ball players to hit the ball out of the park.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That loud PING is not quite the same though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike O.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem with Al is that of line drives. Since more energy
>>>>> is
>>>>> transfered, a line drive may well break bones or kill someone.
>>>>> That's
>>>>> one reason why they're not allowed in MLB.
>>>>
>>>> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
>>>> difference between no injury and broken bones or death? Might
>>>> interest you to know that in the past ten years 2/3 of the people
>>>> who
>>>> have died from being struck by a batted ball were struck by balls
>>>> hit
>>>> from a _wooden_ bat.
>>>
>>> Yes. It's not just the energy but the pitcher's reaction time. A
>>> fastball off the bat would hit the pitcher before he could
>>> possibly
>>> defend himself. Pitchers are expensive.
>>
>> Uh huh. Ten percent makes the difference between reacting and not
>> reacting? If the margin is that close then they need to increase
>> the
>> distance to the plate.
>
> Apparently. Changing the distance to the pitchers mound changes the
> entire game.
Yep, but if it only saves one life . . .
>>>> NCAA changed the rules a long time ago to limit the ball speed
>>>> coming
>>>> out of an aluminum bat.
>>>
>>> The 55MPH speed limit was abolished years ago. ;-)
>>
>> Traffic laws have zip all to do with bat design.
>
> Whoosh!
Huh? I really don't know what point you think you were making. Are
you suggesing that the rules concerning the performance of bats have
been rescinded? If so you might want to inform the NCAA as they seem
to be unaware of doing so.
>>>> This whole aluminum bat controversy is something that
>>>> grandstanding
>>>> politicians use to appear to be Doing Something and has no real
>>>> relation to safety. Of course there's a "ban aluminum bats"
>>>> movement, but take _anything_ and there's some bunch of loons who
>>>> think it should be banned.
>>>
>>> You're nutz. Politicians have nothing to do (drugs being the
>>> obvious exception) with MLB rules.
>>
>> No, they have to do with the laws in several states that prohibit
>> the
>> use of aluminum bats.
>
> Ok, you now owe us a citation that shows "several states" that have
> banned aluminum bats from MLB (or any other) games.
So far the only one that has passed was NYC, but several states have
legislation in progress.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
krw wrote:
...
> Cite.
Give it a rest--google for it if you really don't know and want to...
OTOMH, I know at least ND has legislation pending, several states have
various measures in place for high schools being required (mostly by
their state HS athletic associations as opposed to actual legislation.
I'm not sure the actual status in NYC -- Bloomberg was going to veto it,
but the initial passage was by a large enough margin to override. Where
it stands in the process, though, I've not followed.
--
krw wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> krw wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> Cite.
>> Give it a rest--google for it if you really don't know and want to...
>
> You made the assertion, support it.
Actually, no I didn't; I just have heard enough of it owing to being
involved enough to know what has been going on to know you're just
itching for an argument (altho the other poster hasn't been particularly
politic, either)...
>> OTOMH, I know at least ND has legislation pending, several states have
>> various measures in place for high schools being required (mostly by
>> their state HS athletic associations as opposed to actual legislation.
>
> We were talking about MLB.
The conversation, as near as I can tell, was general, not restricted to MLB.
--
J. Clarke wrote:
...
> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
> difference between no injury and broken bones or death? ...
Recall, however, that KE ~ V^2 so a 20% in energy translates into over
40% higher velocity. That much difference would make a _big_ difference
in reaction time for evasion/self-defense...
--
dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
> ...
>> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the
>> difference between no injury and broken bones or death? ...
>
> Recall, however, that KE ~ V^2 so a 20% in energy translates into
> over
> 40% higher velocity. That much difference would make a _big_
> difference in reaction time for evasion/self-defense...
Uh, try that calculation again. You did it backwards.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Dan Coby wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>> ...
>>> So a twenty percent difference in energy is going to make the difference between no injury and
>>> broken bones or death? ...
>> Recall, however, that KE ~ V^2 so a 20% in energy translates into over 40% higher velocity. That
>> much difference would make a _big_ difference in reaction time for evasion/self-defense...
>
> I think that you need to check your math.
Yeah, brain cramp there, for sure...shoulda' known no chance nobody
woulda' noticed before I got back to note the gaff... :(
--
> Similar to a hole for a lamp, I'd cut the
>stock in half, make a groove, glue the halves back together, then turn
>the piece.
The rules explicitly prohibit "composite" bats of any kind. They must
be made out of one piece of solid wood.
Although, I did see one company known for making hard maple bats
offering composite bamboo bats. Still, not legal in the Bigs.
-Zz
On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT), p4o2 <[email protected]> wrote:
>So many people (players, umpires, fans) get hit with parts of broken
>bats that it seems like a simple solution exists. I am not a
>woodworker so I can not judge the problems with drilling a very small
>hole in the center of the bat (or the piece of wood that would be
>turned into the bat) down the lenght of the bat. If this could be
>done, a polymer fiber (nylon, polycarbonate, etc.) placed in this hole
>would hold all the pieces of a broken bat together and prevent most of
>the injuries.
>
>Any technical woodworking problems in doing this?
It is difficult to drill a deep hole into long stock, since there is
nothing to keep it on-center as it drills. An off-center hole would
make an unbalanced bat. Similar to a hole for a lamp, I'd cut the
stock in half, make a groove, glue the halves back together, then turn
the piece.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, krw
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>It's a weight issue. It's tough ot make AL dense enough. Stainless
>>would work I suppose. ;-)
>
> Aluminum is already denser than any wood.
I'm not arguing, but is that true?
What I've found so far is that the density of Al is 0.098lb/in^3 (approx
1.56 oz/in^3 and that white ash is 41 lbs/ft^3, which should work out to
about 0.379 oz/in^3, unless my math is completely f'd. I got some of the
info from here; http://woodsgood.ca/woodDensity.htm
and some from here:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_density_of_aluminum
I am fully prepared to acknowledge I may have really messed up on the math
but....
"p4o2" <[email protected]> wrote
On the subject of aluminum bats. I am sure that if there was money to
be made, one of the manufactures of the bats could design and make a
bat that would duplicate the characteristics of wood bats.
******************
It would be too hard to veneer the aluminum bats. <G>
"cavelamb himself" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Doug Brown wrote:
>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, krw
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>It's a weight issue. It's tough ot make AL dense enough. Stainless
>>>>would work I suppose. ;-)
>>>
>>>Aluminum is already denser than any wood.
>>
>>
>> I'm not arguing, but is that true?
>>
>> What I've found so far is that the density of Al is 0.098lb/in^3 (approx
>> 1.56 oz/in^3 and that white ash is 41 lbs/ft^3, which should work out to
>> about 0.379 oz/in^3, unless my math is completely f'd. I got some of the
>> info from here; http://woodsgood.ca/woodDensity.htm
>> and some from here:
>> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_density_of_aluminum
>>
>> I am fully prepared to acknowledge I may have really messed up on the
>> math but....
>
>
> Does Ash float?
>
> Aluminum doesn't...
Duh! OK, but my ash doesn't float :).
>