Advice on a joint please...

Some tips on that operation at this link:

http://www.dewalt.com/us/articles/article.asp?Site=woodworking&ID=511
*****************************


itself is 3/4" thick (both pieces), so is the dovetail going to
simply
> snap off when I put a heavy music book on it?
>
> I guess the second question would be fitting it together with glue in the
> joint without it binding or cracking. I figure epoxy will give me the
> time to slide everything together (27" long), but I'm looking for any
> advice as I only want to do it once :)
>
> If my description isn't clear, I'll post a quick rendering of what I have
> in mind.
>
> TIA
> Steve

On Aug 9, 3:50?am, Leuf <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:51:47 GMT, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Here's a quick pic if it makes things clear(er).
>
> >http://www.stevemorley.com/hobbies/woodwork/stand.jpg
>
> As long as the grain is going horizontally in both pieces there is no
> need to do anything other than butt the pieces together. A long grain
> to long grain glue joint is stronger than the wood itself.
>
> -Leuf

And if you really are nervous about the butt joint strength, several
dowel pins (or screws covered by plugs) from the rear will reassure
you. Although really unnecessary as others have allready attested.

FoggyTown

On Aug 8, 6:51 pm, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here's a quick pic if it makes things clear(er).
>
> http://www.stevemorley.com/hobbies/woodwork/stand.jpg

Regular Titebond. TBII (or TBIII) has more resin, might lock up
before you get the joint driven all the way home. Music
equipment gets babied, so you won't need the extra strength
or water resistance of exterior grade yellow glues. Sliding
dovetails are tremendously strong anyway, by virtue of
glue area.

Extending the back panel maybe 3/4" below the ledge will
add strength against the back panel breaking at the joint.
You've considered that, seeing how you've placed the dovetail
high.

Do you need full 3/4" lumber? 1/2" or 5/8" might be
sufficient, and will weigh less.

On Aug 11, 5:55 pm, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 21:46:44 GMT, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Hi All,
>
> >I'm new here, and new to woodworking in general. My first real project
> >is under way and I'll have a few questions as I go, so here's the
> >first...
>
> >My project is a music stand for myself. Store bought ones just don't do
> >it for me and I love natural wood anyway. For an idea of the kind of
> >thing I'm making, I found an awesome website with quality that I won't
> >even try to accomplish this first time out:
>
> >http://www.misterstandman.com
>
> >The first question I have is how to join the bottom "music rest" portion
> >to the back piece? The strongest joint that I can come up with is a
> >sliding dovetail with the slot in the back piece and the tail making up
> >the shelf, but I'm worried about how large of a bit to use. The wood
> >itself is 3/4" thick (both pieces), so is the dovetail going to simply
> >snap off when I put a heavy music book on it?
>
> I'd make a triangular (or pie-shaped) piece, 3/4" thick, with a hole
> in it. Dado the back (1/4" is fine) piece so that one side of the
> triangular piece fits. A little more complicated if you want
> adjustable tilt. A sliding dovetail is good too--the unglued sliding
> dovetail can be fragile but after the glue fully cures (overnight) it
> becomes very strong.
>
>
>
> >I guess the second question would be fitting it together with glue in the
> >joint without it binding or cracking. I figure epoxy will give me the
> >time to slide everything together (27" long), but I'm looking for any
> >advice as I only want to do it once :)
>
> Fuss with the dry fit, snug but not tight. I'd use woodworker's glue
> and a small flux brush. Put glue on the deepest 10" of mortise and
> the last 10" of the tenon. You have 5-10 minutes of open time with
> the yellow woodworker's glue.

Cured yellow glue is unbreakable in shear. Just glue the last 2" of
each piece. Use a pipe clamp to drive the joint home instead of a
hammer, and don't stop moving -- if the joint's cut tight, which
it'll
likely be for appearance, it'll lock up hard if you pause for even a
second.

Wed, Aug 8, 2007, 9:46pm (EDT+4) [email protected] (Steve) comes in,
waves, and say, Hi All,
<snip> I love natural wood <snip>
so is the dovetail going to simply snap off when I put a heavy music
book on it?
I guess the second question would be fitting it together with glue in
the joint without it binding or cracking. I figure epoxy will give me
the time to slide everything together (27" long), but I'm looking for
any advice as I only want to do it once :)

Yeah, unnatural wood gives me the creeps.

How 'heavy' do you consider a 'heavy' music book? Me, I'd glue 2-3
braces under if I was worried about it holding. But that's me. If
you're worried, make a prototype, with cheap wood, and check how it does
before you do it for real.

Just how long do you think it takes for glue to set anyway? I'd
use Titebond II, I use it for about everything.



JOAT
I do things I don't know how to do, so that I might learn how to do
them.
- Picasso

A sliding dovetail can indeed be a very strong joint.

Considerations - if the direction of the grain in both pieces is the
same - like almost all the stands in the website you referenced - then a
simple butt joint, long grain to long grain, will be stronger than the
wood itself. This will easily hold up any music book you have. It takes
hundreds or thousands of pounds of force to crack a well made glue joint.

You have to be careful that the dovetail socket is not too close to the
edge of the board. Also, 27" is a fairly long joint, and making sliding
dovetails is not terribly forgiving. How were you going to accomplish
this? Router table? Special jig?

A well-fitted sliding dovetail has lots of inherent mechanical strength,
glue is only necessary to keep the joint from sliding apart. You can
slide the joint mostly together dry, and only need to put glue on the
last couple inches.
--
JeffB
remove no.spam. to email


Steve wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm new here, and new to woodworking in general. My first real project
> is under way and I'll have a few questions as I go, so here's the
> first...
>
> My project is a music stand for myself. Store bought ones just don't do
> it for me and I love natural wood anyway. For an idea of the kind of
> thing I'm making, I found an awesome website with quality that I won't
> even try to accomplish this first time out:
>
> http://www.misterstandman.com
>
> The first question I have is how to join the bottom "music rest" portion
> to the back piece? The strongest joint that I can come up with is a
> sliding dovetail with the slot in the back piece and the tail making up
> the shelf, but I'm worried about how large of a bit to use. The wood
> itself is 3/4" thick (both pieces), so is the dovetail going to simply
> snap off when I put a heavy music book on it?
>
> I guess the second question would be fitting it together with glue in the
> joint without it binding or cracking. I figure epoxy will give me the
> time to slide everything together (27" long), but I'm looking for any
> advice as I only want to do it once :)
>
> If my description isn't clear, I'll post a quick rendering of what I have
> in mind.
>
> TIA
> Steve

A sliding dovetail is very strong. With the glue you apply it will do the
trick. Regular Tite Bond is perfect, no need for expoxy.

Tim

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi All,
>
> I'm new here, and new to woodworking in general. My first real project
> is under way and I'll have a few questions as I go, so here's the
> first...
>
> My project is a music stand for myself. Store bought ones just don't do
> it for me and I love natural wood anyway. For an idea of the kind of
> thing I'm making, I found an awesome website with quality that I won't
> even try to accomplish this first time out:
>
> http://www.misterstandman.com
>
> The first question I have is how to join the bottom "music rest" portion
> to the back piece? The strongest joint that I can come up with is a
> sliding dovetail with the slot in the back piece and the tail making up
> the shelf, but I'm worried about how large of a bit to use. The wood
> itself is 3/4" thick (both pieces), so is the dovetail going to simply
> snap off when I put a heavy music book on it?
>
> I guess the second question would be fitting it together with glue in the
> joint without it binding or cracking. I figure epoxy will give me the
> time to slide everything together (27" long), but I'm looking for any
> advice as I only want to do it once :)
>
> If my description isn't clear, I'll post a quick rendering of what I have
> in mind.
>
> TIA
> Steve

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi All,
>
> I'm new here, and new to woodworking in general. My first real project
> is under way and I'll have a few questions as I go, so here's the
> first...
>
> My project is a music stand for myself. Store bought ones just don't do
> it for me and I love natural wood anyway. For an idea of the kind of
> thing I'm making, I found an awesome website with quality that I won't
> even try to accomplish this first time out:
>
> http://www.misterstandman.com
>
> The first question I have is how to join the bottom "music rest" portion
> to the back piece? The strongest joint that I can come up with is a
> sliding dovetail with the slot in the back piece and the tail making up
> the shelf, but I'm worried about how large of a bit to use. The wood
> itself is 3/4" thick (both pieces), so is the dovetail going to simply
> snap off when I put a heavy music book on it?
>
> I guess the second question would be fitting it together with glue in the
> joint without it binding or cracking. I figure epoxy will give me the
> time to slide everything together (27" long), but I'm looking for any
> advice as I only want to do it once :)
>
You are making way too much out of this. A plain butt joint with yellow
glue is all you need.
A sliding dovetail would be weaker.
I would throw in some biscuits and a few screws wouldn't hurt, but neither
are necessary.

"JeffB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>A sliding dovetail can indeed be a very strong joint.
>
> Considerations - if the direction of the grain in both pieces is the
> same - like almost all the stands in the website you referenced - then a
> simple butt joint, long grain to long grain, will be stronger than the
> wood itself. This will easily hold up any music book you have. It takes
> hundreds or thousands of pounds of force to crack a well made glue joint.
>
> You have to be careful that the dovetail socket is not too close to the
> edge of the board. Also, 27" is a fairly long joint, and making sliding
> dovetails is not terribly forgiving. How were you going to accomplish
> this? Router table? Special jig?
>

You're over-engineering, that's for sure. I'd use a simple rabbet/dado for
extra glue surface and realize that the loading on the book ledge, trying to
rotate the ledge into the bottom of the backing. Can't when the wood butts
against it, as long as the glue's intact. The unrabbeted part of the ledge,
fitted in the dado of the backing, should be at least 1/4" to provide shear
resistance, that's all.

If you're using plywood the mechanical joint makes a bit more sense, but
adds a degree of difficulty in cutting the joint without chipping the
veneer. Score in advance.

If you get the show, try watching a few episodes of The Router Workshop.
Stuff here at http://www.oak-park.com/ that they use all the time. The
joint's not difficult on a table, just remember to leave the bit height the
same to cut both pieces, and sneak up on the thickness of the dovetail,
ending up with what most would call a loose fit. The thing'll split for
sure if you have to whack the glue-expanded piece into a glue-expanded
opening.

If you're using plywood

Here's a quick pic if it makes things clear(er).

http://www.stevemorley.com/hobbies/woodwork/stand.jpg

Steve

Wow,

I was away for about a week, right after my posting, just now reading the
replies.

Thanks to everyone for replying, I'll read your notes, and sure to be
asking a few more questions shortly.

Steve

Hi Leuf,

> As long as the grain is going horizontally in both pieces there is no
> need to do anything other than butt the pieces together. A long grain
> to long grain glue joint is stronger than the wood itself.

Ok, good to know. I've always enjoyed the look of a dovetail joint so in
addition to the added strength, it had a bit of a "cool" factor too.

Thanks
Steve

Hi Father Haskell,

> Do you need full 3/4" lumber? 1/2" or 5/8" might be
> sufficient, and will weigh less.

I found this (to me) nice looking coffee table that I'll be using as my
"source" lumber at a local pawn shop. It's 3/4" and made up of a
lamination of a think centre piece of something (maple perhaps), and two
thinner pieces of a rich darker wood that was exactly what I was looking
for when I first designed it.

I'll be posting finishing suggestions soon, I'll upload a pic of the wood
to see if anyone can identify it whilst helping me decide on a finish.

Steve

Hi,

> How 'heavy' do you consider a 'heavy' music book?

Well, I typically have a 4" binder full of paper that I need to leaf
through whilst playing, and there's often a hymnal that I have to throw on
top if the music leader chooses something from there instead.

> If you're worried, make a prototype, with cheap wood, and check how it
> does before you do it for real.

Good idea. I think I have some cheap 3/4" wood lying around, it will help
me set up the router table for the passes as well.

> Just how long do you think it takes for glue to set anyway? I'd
> use Titebond II, I use it for about everything.

Dunno, hence the request, thanks for the input.
Steve

Hi Tim,

> A sliding dovetail is very strong. With the glue you apply it will do
> the trick. Regular Tite Bond is perfect, no need for expoxy.

Thanks for the note.
Steve

Hi Jeff,

> A sliding dovetail can indeed be a very strong joint.

Glad to hear it.

> Considerations - if the direction of the grain in both pieces is the
> same - like almost all the stands in the website you referenced - then
> a simple butt joint, long grain to long grain, will be stronger than
> the wood itself. This will easily hold up any music book you have. It
> takes hundreds or thousands of pounds of force to crack a well made
> glue joint.

I guess part of my considerations is when kids play around the platform,
they may knock it flying and it's the sudden G-force that would get
applied to the corners might cause a span :(

> You have to be careful that the dovetail socket is not too close to
> the edge of the board. Also, 27" is a fairly long joint, and making
> sliding dovetails is not terribly forgiving. How were you going to
> accomplish this? Router table? Special jig?

Was planning on using a router table, as per one fo the websites
mentioned by another poster.

> A well-fitted sliding dovetail has lots of inherent mechanical
> strength, glue is only necessary to keep the joint from sliding apart.
> You can slide the joint mostly together dry, and only need to put glue
> on the last couple inches.

Ah, good point, hadn't thought if that possibility.
Steve

Hi George,

> You're over-engineering, that's for sure.

That was the plan :) As posted above, it's more to help with any
"accidental" droppings this thing might take from the 3' box it'll be
resting on.

> If you're using plywood the mechanical joint makes a bit more sense,
> but adds a degree of difficulty in cutting the joint without chipping
> the veneer. Score in advance.

I guess it'd be considered a plywood, but with only three "parts". The
centre is a maple or maybe even nice pine, but the visible faces are a nice
(but thin) dark wood veneer that has the color and grain I was looking for.

I'll take a pic tonight and post so that folks can see the wood I'll
actually be working with.

Thanks for the input.
Steve

Hi "Toller",

> A sliding dovetail would be weaker.

Could you elaborate on this for me please? Others have posted that it's a
decent and possibly over engineered joint, you're the first to indicate
that it's weaker, and as a newbie, I want to make sure it's going to stand
up to the years of (ab)use that it's intended for.

Steve

Hi Father Haskell,

> Use a pipe clamp to drive the joint home instead of a
> hammer, and don't stop moving -- if the joint's cut tight, which
> it'll
> likely be for appearance, it'll lock up hard if you pause for even a
> second.

Thanks for that, I hadn't thought of keeping steady movement going to help
it from locking up.

Steve

On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 21:46:44 GMT, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I'm new here, and new to woodworking in general. My first real project
>is under way and I'll have a few questions as I go, so here's the
>first...
>
>My project is a music stand for myself. Store bought ones just don't do
>it for me and I love natural wood anyway. For an idea of the kind of
>thing I'm making, I found an awesome website with quality that I won't
>even try to accomplish this first time out:
>
>http://www.misterstandman.com
>
>The first question I have is how to join the bottom "music rest" portion
>to the back piece? The strongest joint that I can come up with is a
>sliding dovetail with the slot in the back piece and the tail making up
>the shelf, but I'm worried about how large of a bit to use. The wood
>itself is 3/4" thick (both pieces), so is the dovetail going to simply
>snap off when I put a heavy music book on it?

I'd make a triangular (or pie-shaped) piece, 3/4" thick, with a hole
in it. Dado the back (1/4" is fine) piece so that one side of the
triangular piece fits. A little more complicated if you want
adjustable tilt. A sliding dovetail is good too--the unglued sliding
dovetail can be fragile but after the glue fully cures (overnight) it
becomes very strong.


>
>I guess the second question would be fitting it together with glue in the
>joint without it binding or cracking. I figure epoxy will give me the
>time to slide everything together (27" long), but I'm looking for any
>advice as I only want to do it once :)

Fuss with the dry fit, snug but not tight. I'd use woodworker's glue
and a small flux brush. Put glue on the deepest 10" of mortise and
the last 10" of the tenon. You have 5-10 minutes of open time with
the yellow woodworker's glue.

>
>If my description isn't clear, I'll post a quick rendering of what I have
>in mind.
>
>TIA
>Steve

On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:51:47 GMT, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:

>Here's a quick pic if it makes things clear(er).
>
>http://www.stevemorley.com/hobbies/woodwork/stand.jpg

As long as the grain is going horizontally in both pieces there is no
need to do anything other than butt the pieces together. A long grain
to long grain glue joint is stronger than the wood itself.


-Leuf