No More Landlords Or Realtors!

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 7:38:27 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> That's it! I'm sick of it.
> I am now going to ask the question, "Are you the owner/occupier of this
> property" before taking on any more repair work.
> I've had it with realtors and landlords who not only want you to use a
> band-aid fix for everything, but they want you to buy the band-aids at
> BigLots.
>
> I finally told one, today, "You know, someone has to live here, right?"
> She kept asking me which of the two repair options I would guarantee for
> longer.
> I actually chuckled and replied, "Oh, I'm not guaranteeing either of
> these options. I'll guarantee the work if you let me do it right."
>
> They're trying to save a couple hundred dollars on a house they'll get
> $2500 a month for in rent or make 50 grand on the sale.
>
> One realtor asked me, "Why won't you just do it the way I want you to do
> it."
> I said, "Because I like to sleep at night."
>
> There are plenty of people around here who are working illegally, not
> paying insurance nor taxes, and don't know any better who can work for
> these people. No more, for me.
>
>

Good for you...as long as you can afford to pass up the work.

If you really want to see some shortcuts, check out student housing. Even
the really "nice" places, those that command the higher rents, are held
together with Harbor Freight chewing gum.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> That's it! I'm sick of it.
> I am now going to ask the question, "Are you the owner/occupier of this
> property" before taking on any more repair work.
> I've had it with realtors and landlords who not only want you to use a
> band-aid fix for everything, but they want you to buy the band-aids at
> BigLots.
>
> I finally told one, today, "You know, someone has to live here, right?"
> She kept asking me which of the two repair options I would guarantee for
> longer.
> I actually chuckled and replied, "Oh, I'm not guaranteeing either of
> these options. I'll guarantee the work if you let me do it right."
>
> They're trying to save a couple hundred dollars on a house they'll get
> $2500 a month for in rent or make 50 grand on the sale.
>
> One realtor asked me, "Why won't you just do it the way I want you to do
> it."
> I said, "Because I like to sleep at night."
>
> There are plenty of people around here who are working illegally, not
> paying insurance nor taxes, and don't know any better who can work for
> these people. No more, for me.
>
>

They have a lot of work to be offered. I would not turn them down, I
would simply give them a price you are comfortable with, no compromising
your integrity.

On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 6:07:56 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/9/18 9:34 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 2/8/18 11:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> Hmmmm.=C2=A0 Guess I am lucky, or special.=C2=A0 I've never done a con=
struction
> >> job where I did not do it right.=C2=A0 On the paying jobs I've done, I
> >> always said this is what I am going to do and this is what it will
> >> cost.=C2=A0 No discussion or arguing to that.=C2=A0 On the non paying =
jobs I
> >> just say this is what it costs for the parts and my labor of course
> >> is donated.=C2=A0 There is no arguing over the parts.
> >>
> >=20
> > I have a saying, "There are a million ways to do something, and one=20
> > right way."
> > So I think we are in the same camp for the most part.
> >=20
> > In this particular case, there is wood rot around at the bottom of a=20
> > door jamb, at the threshold, that allowed water to get inside the house=
=20
> > and under the finished flooring.
> >=20
> > To do it "right" would mean removing the entire door frame to inspect=
=20
> > for damage and possible rotted wood underneath, which is how I advised=
=20
> > the landlord.=C2=A0 Then replace the rotted section with a composite ma=
terial=20
> > or replace the entire jamb with composite material (about $50 for pvc=
=20
> > door frame).=C2=A0 This is the way it would be done in order to be able=
to=20
> > guarantee no further damage.
> >=20
> > After asking me the "what would you do it it was your house?" question=
=20
> > and explaining the above, the only option the landlord allowed in the=
=20
> > discussion was to patch the rotted wood section.=C2=A0 There are two wa=
ys to=20
> > do this.=C2=A0 Cut and scab or use a 2-part filler.
> >=20
> > At this point, I have the option of walking away and refusing the job,=
=20
> > or accepting a specific repair request and doing it the best way=20
> > possible.=C2=A0 There are literally a million of these rotting door jam=
bs=20
> > within a 25 mile radius of me and having a cost effective way to=20
> > "repair" them could be a lucrative specialty business all in itself.
> >=20
> > I have used both methods of repair, depending on the specific situation=
,=20
> > and they both do the job well.=C2=A0 However, neither address other exi=
sting=20
> > rot or future potential rotting.=C2=A0 For example, I have seen wood ro=
t that=20
> > presented itself as being caused by water settling at the threshold/jam=
b=20
> > corner, but it was actually being caused by water getting behind brick=
=20
> > at the top of the door where it wasn't flashed properly and running dow=
n=20
> > the inside and settling at the threshold, rotting the jamb from the=20
> > inside out (and about 6" of jack stud as well).=C2=A0 It rotted the stu=
d=20
> > first, then the jamb.
> >=20
> > All that to say, I guess I can do this repair "right" without doing it=
=20
> > "right."
> > Meaning, I'm being hired to patch some rotted wood and I'll do it right=
.
> > I'll use a high quality band-aid and apply it correctly and get paid.
> > But I can't guarantee it'll stop the bleeding somewhere else.
> >=20
>=20
> I ended up using two 2-part epoxy products that I've used before. Both=
=20
> are exterior and completely waterproof.
> The first is Elmer's Damaged Wood Repair System which is great for=20
> filling big voids.
> The second is Bondo All-Purpose Putty, which is the same thing as their=
=20
> 2-part wood filler, sans the wood fiber. Unless you're staining, use=20
> the all-purpose-- you get twice as much for the price.
>=20
> I've used the 2-part Bondo wood filler before and love it. It sets up=20
> very fast and you can build coats quickly and sand within 15-30 minutes.
>=20
> The day before, I applied Minwax Wood Hardener which works really well=20
> to stabilize softer wood and prime it for sticking to the epoxy.
>=20
> I filled the deep voids with the Elmers. It has a 1-hour work time and=
=20
> "cures" overnight, so it is slower than other 2-part products. However,=
=20
> it doesn't need to be totally cured to build over. I went to lunch to=20
> let it stiffen up.
>=20
> Next, I applied the first coat of Bondo putty and let it stiffen enough=
=20
> that I could "work it" some. About halfway through the catalyst cycle=20
> it becomes a bit like play-doh and can be mushed around into shape.=20
> Using a plastic putty knife sprayed with acetone, you can work it like=20
> pottery clay. About 15 minutes later, it's ready for sanding.
>=20
> I had a pretty good finished shape after the 1st layer of Bondo filler,=
=20
> with some light filling to finish it up. Another feathering coat and=20
> some sanding and it was done.
>=20
> The paint you see is a Zinsser exterior primer that looks better than=20
> the paint on the rest of the door frame. There are some tiny voids and=
=20
> paint bubbles that I would normally touch-up and smooth out, but since=20
> this repaired section looks a lot better than the rest of the door=20
> frame, the client was happy with the end product. They have a painter=20
> coming in to do the whole house, so they will do the detail work on the=
=20
> door.
>=20
> Here's the rotted jamb.
> http://mikedrums.com/door_jam_rot_before.jpg
> Here's the repair.
> http://mikedrums.com/door_jamb_rot_after_comp.PNG
>=20
>=20

Nice job.=20

If I ever become a landlord I'll be sure to use you for my repair work...as=
long as we can=20
agree on a price. ;-)

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 1:12:58 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/8/18 11:31 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:41:57 -0500 typed in
> > rec.woodworking the following:
> >> On 2/8/2018 12:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Yeah, I guess there's always that.=C2=A0 I can quote a price, if they=
don't
> >>> bite... fine.
> >>> But man, it gets old dealing with the rolling eyes.
> >>> I had something in the music business I balled the B:B ratio.=C2=A0 B=
ullshit
> >>> to benefit.
> >>> Sometimes there's just way to much bullshit that outweighs the benefi=
t.
> >>>
> >>> I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite motto..=
.
> >>> "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive."=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 :-D
> >>>
> >>> I guess I just had to vent.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I understand, your B:B ratio, it is not just construction, it is most
> >> every business. There are times it is best to walk away.
> >> I remember one customer calling me to say my quote had an error. It w=
as
> >> something like:
> >> 1000 pcs $1.00 each
> >> 2000 pcs $1.50 each
> >> 5000 pcs $2.00 each
> >> He ordered 1000 and found a new supplier.
> >=20
> > I recall a story of a hotel chain wanting to decorate with a
> > "Tropical" theme, and commissioned a coconut carving for a prototype.
> > "No problem - Ten bucks."
> > They like the guys work, then say "We'd like a buttload more." He
> > said " Okay 15, each."
> > They wanted to know why he was charging so much, and he said, "the
> > first one is fun. After that, it becomes work."
> >=20
>=20
> Absolutely!!
> That's how it is on many projects I've done. I take on lots of builds=20
> simply because I've never done one before. When those clients say, "Oh,=
=20
> we'll tell all our friends about you and your work." I always reply,=20
> "That's awesome, just don't tell them what I charged." :-)
>=20
>=20

If it were me, I wouldn't reply in that manner. I'm of the mind that it onl=
y takes one
negative sounding comment - even if said in a joking manner - to sour a dea=
l.

I figure "Why even put that thought in their head?" All it does is get them=
thinking "Hmmm...
maybe I should shop around next time." Or when they are talking to their fr=
iends, they may
remember what you said and pass it on - even jokingly - but their friends d=
on't know how
good of a job you did. All they hear is "He's expensive."

"Thank you. It was great working with you. If your friends are as nice as y=
ou, I would love
to work with them." That's a response that makes them feel good about them=
selves. You=20
leave them feeling positive, not wondering if you charged them too much, ev=
en if it's just the=20
tiniest little bit of a thought.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 19:22:09 -0600 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>Help me understand this.
>I understand that Cheaper Price, Fast work results in low quality.
>And quality work, fast work results in higher price.
>
>But if you give them Cheaper price, Quality Work, but not fast, then
>you're probably not making very little the hour and not making money.
>

I read an essay by a professional furniture maker, who said that
the finest furniture he's seen, was made by his neighbor the
accountant. Because his neighbor could afford to take the time to
select materials, work the materials, take all the pains eh cared to
take, because _he_ was not depending on something selling to pay the
bills. Whereas he, the professional, need to have X number of items
go out the door a month in order to have Y dollars come back in, to
pay bills, paychecks and overhead.

So, yeah, if I'm working on something, I can take the time I need.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 22:10:32 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2/7/18 8:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 7:38:27 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> That's it! I'm sick of it.
>>> I am now going to ask the question, "Are you the owner/occupier of this
>>> property" before taking on any more repair work.
>>> I've had it with realtors and landlords who not only want you to use a
>>> band-aid fix for everything, but they want you to buy the band-aids at
>>> BigLots.
>>>
>>> I finally told one, today, "You know, someone has to live here, right?"
>>> She kept asking me which of the two repair options I would guarantee for
>>> longer.
>>> I actually chuckled and replied, "Oh, I'm not guaranteeing either of
>>> these options. I'll guarantee the work if you let me do it right."
>>>
>>> They're trying to save a couple hundred dollars on a house they'll get
>>> $2500 a month for in rent or make 50 grand on the sale.
>>>
>>> One realtor asked me, "Why won't you just do it the way I want you to do
>>> it."
>>> I said, "Because I like to sleep at night."
>>>
>>> There are plenty of people around here who are working illegally, not
>>> paying insurance nor taxes, and don't know any better who can work for
>>> these people. No more, for me.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Good for you...as long as you can afford to pass up the work.
>>
>> If you really want to see some shortcuts, check out student housing. Even
>> the really "nice" places, those that command the higher rents, are held
>> together with Harbor Freight chewing gum.
>>
>
>"Harbor Freight chewing gum." LMAO!!
>Good one.
>
>I lived in a college town for 15 years... I've seen it all. :-)

I grew up in a college town and moved to another a decade ago (though
only lived there for three years). The college population of the
second was about half the total population and about tree times on
football Sunday. They're certainly amazing places to live.

MIKE... I have found that many realtors are clinically, irretrievably stupi=
d. One could speculate brain damage and not be out of line. I work with o=
ne or two a year, and that's it.

I used to have a lot of realtors that called and wanted full estimates in w=
riting, only to find that they wanted and estimate from a reputable company=
to take to closing to make sure that repair expenses were covered. I was =
nothing more than a bargaining chip with no intention of being asked to the=
work.

The last one I worked with had to work with me as I had worked for the clie=
nt before, and he had moved and didn't want anyone he didn't know in the ho=
use. So the realtor was stuck with me and she was pissed off the whole tim=
e, trying to desconstruct my contract and get her husband on the work (foun=
d out that after he retired he formed a "make ready" company) the entire ti=
me I was working on the project. I would tell her my electrician was a week=
away from coming out and she would *gasp* for dramatic effect. Hers was a=
lways on call for her, and her only. Same with every other trade.
She was completely pissed off that I charged her $187 more on a $12,000 con=
tract for 3 GFIs that were found to be inoperable after an hour of testing =
(included). This house is now on the market for $980,900! Really? Three =
GFIs and the time to find the problems and it was less than $200? Truth be=
told, the $187 was what my electrician charged me.

I try to stay away from realtors, period. When you say you provide free es=
timates, they think you are a public service provided by some rich foundati=
on so it is no big deal for you to spend a few days measuring, finding prod=
uct, estimating costs, and writing up a legally binding contract. Hey, if i=
t's free to them, it must be cheap and nearly free to do, right?

And I am tired of hearing the same old warmup when I meet on site. "Well, =
Robert, I just want you to know who you will be bidding against. I have a =
old guy in his 70s that is blind in one eye, and doesn't have all the "fanc=
y" tools, but can do work for me real cheap. You are here because I couldn=
't find him for a couple of weeks, and his daughter told me he couldn't com=
e to work for me because his truck is in the shop and he can't get it out b=
ecause he doesn't have any money. She told me it was vandalized when someo=
ne stole all his tools. He didn't return my phone calls because he never s=
et up his voice mail and forgets to charge his phone so we never connected =
and I didn't know all of that. I usually have to give him half down on any=
repairs, but I don't think we can do that this time. Did I mention how ch=
eap he works?"

My commercial managers that I work for on a routine basis are cheap, but th=
ey pay their bills and understand that when you pay bananas you get monkeys=
to do the work. For a couple of them, I will do anything from repairing th=
eir roofs and office finish out to property inspections and lockouts of the=
ir tenants. One of my commercial managers has even given me a key to all t=
he business in the center so I can have access as needed.

What a contrast. Most of the realtors I know also think (no doubt from hou=
rs of the DIY/Flip This House watching) that they really designers at heart=
. If a house needs more than a paint job, you have to indulge them while t=
hey "share their vision" of opening up a space, making a room more dramatic=
, and bringing more light into an area. My commercial folks are more along=
the line of "hey Robert, can we get this in under 2K? Yeah? How soon?" =
I bid for the office finish outs, but for the most part pissing away two we=
eks of phone calls and discussions for a $500 repair job just isn't worth t=
heir time.

Like I said, what a difference.

Robert

On 2/8/2018 12:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

>
> Yeah, I guess there's always that.  I can quote a price, if they don't
> bite... fine.
> But man, it gets old dealing with the rolling eyes.
> I had something in the music business I balled the B:B ratio.  Bullshit
> to benefit.
> Sometimes there's just way to much bullshit that outweighs the benefit.
>
> I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite motto...
> "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive."    :-D
>
> I guess I just had to vent.
>
>
I understand, your B:B ratio, it is not just construction, it is most
every business. There are times it is best to walk away.
I remember one customer calling me to say my quote had an error. It was
something like:
1000 pcs $1.00 each
2000 pcs $1.50 each
5000 pcs $2.00 each
He ordered 1000 and found a new supplier.

On 2/10/2018 2:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/10/18 12:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> MIKE... I have found that many realtors are clinically, irretrievably
>> stupid.  One could speculate brain damage and not be out of line.  I
>> work with one or two a year, and that's it.
>>
>> I used to have a lot of realtors that called and wanted full
>> estimates in writing, only to find that they wanted and estimate from
>> a reputable company to take to closing to make sure that repair
>> expenses were covered.  I was nothing more than a bargaining chip
>> with no intention of being asked to the work.
>> .......
>>
>> I try to stay away from realtors, period.  When you say you provide
>> free estimates, they think you are a public service provided by some


[snip]

>
> I tell people, straight up, I'm not going to be the cheapest guy and I
> don't want to be.
> I say there will always be somebody who will do it cheaper and they may
> even be doing it all legally.  :-)


"Well, I spoke with Sam Hill and he said he'd do it for. . . "

I won't dispute that, He knows what his work is worth! ;)

On 2/7/2018 11:50 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/7/18 11:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> That's it!  I'm sick of it.
>>> I am now going to ask the question, "Are you the owner/occupier of this
>>> property" before taking on any more repair work.
>>> I've had it with realtors and landlords who not only want you to use a
>>> band-aid fix for everything, but they want you to buy the band-aids at
>>> BigLots.
>>>
>>> I finally told one, today, "You know, someone has to live here, right?"
>>> She kept asking me which of the two repair options I would guarantee for
>>> longer.
>>> I actually chuckled and replied, "Oh, I'm not guaranteeing either of
>>> these options.  I'll guarantee the work if you let me do it right."
>>>
>>> They're trying to save a couple hundred dollars on a house they'll get
>>> $2500 a month for in rent or make 50 grand on the sale.
>>>
>>> One realtor asked me, "Why won't you just do it the way I want you to do
>>> it."
>>> I said, "Because I like to sleep at night."
>>>
>>> There are plenty of people around here who are working illegally, not
>>> paying insurance nor taxes, and don't know any better who can work for
>>> these people.  No more, for me.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> They have a lot of work to be offered.   I would not turn them down,  I
>> would simply give them a price you are comfortable with, no compromising
>> your integrity.
>>
>
> Yeah, I guess there's always that.  I can quote a price, if they don't
> bite... fine.

Exactly and FWIW I helped a buddy do this type work for about 5 years
and we found that if there was a job we really did not want to do, too
many days to complete, he would bid high. And oddly his high bid often won.

> But man, it gets old dealing with the rolling eyes.

You have to educate them.


> I had something in the music business I balled the B:B ratio.  Bullshit
> to benefit.
> Sometimes there's just way to much bullshit that outweighs the benefit.

And that is when you bid really high. ;~)



>
> I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite motto...
> "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive."    :-D

When I ran the Oldsmobile service department in downtown Houston, many
years ago, I had a young service advisor that put me on the spot one
after noon. Actually I was pretty young too, 29. Anyway he introduced
me to a young lady customer of his and told me that she was having no
luck with getting her vehicle repaired at the other Old's dealerships.
The three of us were standing on the service drive when he told me again
what he told her. Ms. So'n'so you can have confidence that we will get
to the bottom of the problem and fix your car even if it takes every
penny you have! WHATTTTTTTT. They both busted out laughing, they were
dating and decided to pull one over on me. I fondly tell that story
over and over.


>
> I guess I just had to vent.
>
>
No harm in that.

On 2/8/2018 7:22 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/8/18 4:50 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> You get to select two out of these three:  Cheaper price, Quality
>> Work, Fast Work.  You get only two.  If somebody promises you all
>> three (holding up three fingers), they really are only giving you this
>> (extending only my middle finger).  It never failed to bring a smile
>> and usually closed the deal.  ;)
>>
>
> Help me understand this.
> I understand that Cheaper Price, Fast work results in low quality.
> And quality work, fast work results in higher price.
>
> But if you give them Cheaper price, Quality Work, but not fast, then
> you're probably not making very little the hour and not making money.

Not necessarily. If you can work their needs in while in the area, or
while you have a break between jobs that figures in to your schedule.
The problem arises when they demand all three parameters on their terms.

I will do XXX for $2,000.

At that price I have provided you, the client, with quality work at a
cost that is both reasonable for him and provides a profit for me.

The $2,000 is my price point to make the desired profit.

If the you turn around and decides that you wants the job done at that
price, with quality assured but want me to drop everything else and get
it done tomorrow, that will not happen since it means my other clients,
expecting their work done correctly in the time frame agreed to will be
left out in the cold.

If I choose to accede to your demands/time frame, you WILL pay for it.
With me, it will be monetarily, if I can accommodate you time wise with
no difference in the quality of the work performed.

Others may give you the time frame, but likely will not give you the
quality. Something has to give.

Note that I'm speaking of professional services rather than carpentry or
the trades, although I think it applies equally across the board.

Call a lawyer tomorrow and ask him what he'll charge you to defend you
on a contested traffic violation. Got the price? Okay, now call him
back and tell him your court appearance is tomorrow morning at 10:30AM
or maybe kick it up a notch and mention, "by the way, court is at the
Branch Court in the SE corner of the county, not at the county seat"
where is office is located. Let me know what he says. ;)

Shall we talk about a plumber coming out in the evening or weekend? If
you find one that won't be charging a differential for nights, weekends,
or "Jesus H. Keerist! You gotta get here RIGHT NOW, I'm floating" don't
mention his name as you'll never get through on his phone again! ;)

On 2/8/2018 4:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 1:12:58 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/8/18 11:31 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:41:57 -0500 typed in
>>> rec.woodworking the following:
>>>> On 2/8/2018 12:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I guess there's always that.  I can quote a price, if they don't
>>>>> bite... fine.
>>>>> But man, it gets old dealing with the rolling eyes.
>>>>> I had something in the music business I balled the B:B ratio.  Bullshit
>>>>> to benefit.
>>>>> Sometimes there's just way to much bullshit that outweighs the benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite motto...
>>>>> "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive."    :-D
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I just had to vent.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I understand, your B:B ratio, it is not just construction, it is most
>>>> every business. There are times it is best to walk away.
>>>> I remember one customer calling me to say my quote had an error. It was
>>>> something like:
>>>> 1000 pcs $1.00 each
>>>> 2000 pcs $1.50 each
>>>> 5000 pcs $2.00 each
>>>> He ordered 1000 and found a new supplier.

[snip]

> I figure "Why even put that thought in their head?" All it does is get them thinking "Hmmm...
> maybe I should shop around next time." Or when they are talking to their friends, they may
> remember what you said and pass it on - even jokingly - but their friends don't know how
> good of a job you did. All they hear is "He's expensive."
>
> "Thank you. It was great working with you. If your friends are as nice as you, I would love
> to work with them." That's a response that makes them feel good about themselves. You
> leave them feeling positive, not wondering if you charged them too much, even if it's just the
> tiniest little bit of a thought.

Good practice.

When encountered a client who wanted to dicker on price, I would simply
explain that my rates are my rates and take into consideration the job,
the expenses and, the time frame.

You get to select two out of these three: Cheaper price, Quality Work,
Fast Work. You get only two. If somebody promises you all three
(holding up three fingers), they really are only giving you this
(extending only my middle finger). It never failed to bring a smile and
usually closed the deal. ;)

On 2/10/2018 2:44 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Snip

>
> You said it perfectly, many realtors see themselves as designers.
> I see it like the old saying,
> "Music critics are usually poor musicians who couldn't make it in the
> music business."

Definition of a designer. A person that does not realize that a sketch
is not a set of plans.

On 2/10/2018 12:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> MIKE... I have found that many realtors are clinically, irretrievably stupid. One could speculate brain damage and not be out of line. I work with one or two a year, and that's it.


And you can't fix stupid.

Snip

>
> My commercial managers that I work for on a routine basis are cheap, but they pay their bills and understand that when you pay bananas you get monkeys to do the work.

Is that where "monkey with a football" came from? ;)

On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 10:49:37 PM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confuse=
d wrote:
> On 2/10/2018 8:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 2/10/18 8:02 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 6:07:56 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>> On 2/9/18 9:34 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>> On 2/8/18 11:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>>> Hmmmm.=C2=A0 Guess I am lucky, or special.=C2=A0 I've never done a =
construction
> >>>>> job where I did not do it right.=C2=A0 On the paying jobs I've done=
, I
> >>>>> always said this is what I am going to do and this is what it will
> >>>>> cost.=C2=A0 No discussion or arguing to that.=C2=A0 On the non payi=
ng jobs I
> >>>>> just say this is what it costs for the parts and my labor of course
> >>>>> is donated.=C2=A0 There is no arguing over the parts.
> >>>>
>=20
> [snip]
>=20
> >>> Here's the rotted jamb.
> >>> http://mikedrums.com/door_jam_rot_before.jpg
> >>> Here's the repair.
> >>> http://mikedrums.com/door_jamb_rot_after_comp.PNG
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Nice job.
> >>
> >> If I ever become a landlord I'll be sure to use you for my repair=20
> >> work...as long as we can
> >> agree on a price. ;-)
> >>
> >=20
> > Haha!
> > Remember my motto:=C2=A0 "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive."=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 :-D
>=20
> In that case you can rest assured that he will at least use you for=20
> insurance repair estimates! Snerk!

Hmmm...good call. Maybe I should get some estimates now and save them for =
the=20
"appropriate" time (like when I'm short of cash).

Mike: Let's go with some water damaged floors, a rotted window sill and a f=
ire damaged roof.
Hand written, black ink. Don't date them. Thanks.

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 8:14:27 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/8/18 4:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 1:12:58 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 2/8/18 11:31 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> >>> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:41:57 -0500
> >>> typed in rec.woodworking the following:
> >>>> On 2/8/2018 12:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yeah, I guess there's always that. I can quote a price, if
> >>>>> they don't bite... fine. But man, it gets old dealing with
> >>>>> the rolling eyes. I had something in the music business I
> >>>>> balled the B:B ratio. Bullshit to benefit. Sometimes there's
> >>>>> just way to much bullshit that outweighs the benefit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite
> >>>>> motto... "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive." :-D
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess I just had to vent.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> I understand, your B:B ratio, it is not just construction, it
> >>>> is most every business. There are times it is best to walk
> >>>> away. I remember one customer calling me to say my quote had an
> >>>> error. It was something like: 1000 pcs $1.00 each 2000 pcs
> >>>> $1.50 each 5000 pcs $2.00 each He ordered 1000 and found a new
> >>>> supplier.
> >>>
> >>> I recall a story of a hotel chain wanting to decorate with a
> >>> "Tropical" theme, and commissioned a coconut carving for a
> >>> prototype. "No problem - Ten bucks." They like the guys work,
> >>> then say "We'd like a buttload more." He said " Okay 15, each."
> >>> They wanted to know why he was charging so much, and he said,
> >>> "the first one is fun. After that, it becomes work."
> >>>
> >>
> >> Absolutely!! That's how it is on many projects I've done. I take
> >> on lots of builds simply because I've never done one before. When
> >> those clients say, "Oh, we'll tell all our friends about you and
> >> your work." I always reply, "That's awesome, just don't tell them
> >> what I charged." :-)
> >>
> >>
> >
> > If it were me, I wouldn't reply in that manner. I'm of the mind that
> > it only takes one negative sounding comment - even if said in a
> > joking manner - to sour a deal.
> >
>
> I generally have a great relationship with my clients.
> I think that's why I get called back so often.
>
>
> > I figure "Why even put that thought in their head?" All it does is
> > get them thinking "Hmmm... maybe I should shop around next time." Or
> > when they are talking to their friends, they may remember what you
> > said and pass it on - even jokingly - but their friends don't know
> > how good of a job you did. All they hear is "He's expensive."
> >
>
> Sorry, I may not have communicated what I was trying to say clearly
> enough.
> These types of starter projects are the ones I usually don't charge
> enough for. In other words, the client got a killer deal on a superior
> product and I ate the loss because I wanted to do the project for fun
> and as a learning experience.
> What I say, "Don't tell them what I charged," I'm saying that so the
> people they refer me to don't expect to get the same uber-discounted
> price they did.
>
> I've gone through the same thing in the music business. Doing sessions
> for $25 a song, just to get a foot in the door. But telling the
> producers not to expect that rate in the future or spread the word that
> I worked that cheap. No one wants to be the $25/song guy for 2 reasons.
> 1. You lose your shirt.
> 2. People assume you suck if you're that cheap.
> Same thing applies in the trades.
>
>
> > "Thank you. It was great working with you. If your friends are as
> > nice as you, I would love to work with them." That's a response that
> > makes them feel good about themselves. You leave them feeling
> > positive, not wondering if you charged them too much, even if it's
> > just the tiniest little bit of a thought.
> >
>
> I have a huge percentage of call-back clients and I'm very confident in
> my "bedside manner," but I believe it's the confusion pointed out above
> that led you to offer that sage advice. ;-)
>
>

Persactly!

I read it the opposite way. Keep up the good work and the fair pricing. ;-)

On Saturday, 10 February 2018 16:18:34 UTC-6, Leon wrote:

> And you can't fix stupid.
>
> Snip
>
> >
> > My commercial managers that I work for on a routine basis are cheap, but they pay their bills and understand that when you pay bananas you get monkeys to do the work.
>
> Is that where "monkey with a football" came from? ;)

No, but it's close enough cousin to call it!

Robert

Hmmmm. Guess I am lucky, or special. I've never done a construction job w=
here I did not do it right. On the paying jobs I've done, I always said th=
is is what I am going to do and this is what it will cost. No discussion o=
r arguing to that. On the non paying jobs I just say this is what it costs=
for the parts and my labor of course is donated. There is no arguing over=
the parts.



On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:38:27 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
> That's it! I'm sick of it.
> I am now going to ask the question, "Are you the owner/occupier of this
> property" before taking on any more repair work.
> I've had it with realtors and landlords who not only want you to use a
> band-aid fix for everything, but they want you to buy the band-aids at
> BigLots.
>=20
> I finally told one, today, "You know, someone has to live here, right?"
> She kept asking me which of the two repair options I would guarantee for
> longer.
> I actually chuckled and replied, "Oh, I'm not guaranteeing either of
> these options. I'll guarantee the work if you let me do it right."
>=20
> They're trying to save a couple hundred dollars on a house they'll get
> $2500 a month for in rent or make 50 grand on the sale.
>=20
> One realtor asked me, "Why won't you just do it the way I want you to do
> it."
> I said, "Because I like to sleep at night."
>=20
> There are plenty of people around here who are working illegally, not
> paying insurance nor taxes, and don't know any better who can work for
> these people. No more, for me.
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> -MIKE-
>=20
> "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
> --Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
> --
> www.mikedrums.com

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 6:55:18 PM UTC-6, John Grossbohlin wrote:

> Most years I go out to dinner with the professionals and it is a very=20
> stimulating experience. The degree to which they delve into woodworking g=
oes=20
> far beyond the techniques that most show goers seek when attending the=20
> presentations. On a related note, at another organization's show, I recal=
l=20
> Mario Rodriguez saying that good design is the hard part... after than yo=
u=20
> can always manage to put it together.=20

Note of interest and specific to my recent experience:
> This was code for the joinery is the=20
> easy part... yet the beginning to middling hobbyist woodworker often=20
> struggles with the joinery and help with that is what folks seek at the s=
how presentations.

A few years ago I mentioned, here, I needed more learning and experience wi=
th making different joints. In making the latest cypress chairs, I resear=
ched for a good joint for the back legs & backrest frame attachment to the =
seat. I discovered the Maloof joint, so that's what I'm using.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/37248971464/in/photostream

I have 4, of the 5, chair frames done and discovered, last night on one cha=
ir, I cut the left back leg to fit the right side of the seat, and the righ=
t leg to fit the left side. Sometimes you feel like a nut.....

I blame this mistake to a number of facts, related to the salvaged lumber b=
eing used: 1) that each seat slab has a slightly different thickness, as d=
oes 2) each leg stock. I thought it best to cut all stock and fit to asse=
mbly, before carving the finish profiles on each element... slow going. A=
ll pieces are scattered about, so apparently I got the pieces and parts mix=
ed up, at least for this chair's mistake.

In doing some preliminary carving, a few days ago, I stabbed myself in the =
wrist with a carving tool, requiring one stitch and a tetanus shot..... my =
(personal) most serious accident, ever, in the wood shop. Alls well, now.

Yep, it's nice to have the opportunity or make time to hobnob with the pros=
, as you describe.

Sonny

On 2/8/2018 1:08 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

>
>>   I would say to do your best and it is likely you will get more work
>> out of this.  Noting better than word of mouth.
>> And it is more fun working along side some one that is at least equal
>> to you in talent.
>
> That's what I'm hoping.
> I know we'll do the same quality work no matter what we're paid, so we
> might as well get paid.  :-)
>
>

My step father was a builder but in his later years mostly did smaller
remodels and kitchens. When he became sick and could not do the
physical work any more, his reputation was still out there. One client
sent a car to pick him up in the morning just so he could come and watch
and teach the contractor some of his trim skills on crown molding and
baseboards. He always said his clientele was not happy unless he
charged them a high price. He did and he got it.

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 11:10:36 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/7/18 8:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 7:38:27 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> That's it! I'm sick of it.
> >> I am now going to ask the question, "Are you the owner/occupier of this
> >> property" before taking on any more repair work.
> >> I've had it with realtors and landlords who not only want you to use a
> >> band-aid fix for everything, but they want you to buy the band-aids at
> >> BigLots.
> >>
> >> I finally told one, today, "You know, someone has to live here, right?"
> >> She kept asking me which of the two repair options I would guarantee for
> >> longer.
> >> I actually chuckled and replied, "Oh, I'm not guaranteeing either of
> >> these options. I'll guarantee the work if you let me do it right."
> >>
> >> They're trying to save a couple hundred dollars on a house they'll get
> >> $2500 a month for in rent or make 50 grand on the sale.
> >>
> >> One realtor asked me, "Why won't you just do it the way I want you to do
> >> it."
> >> I said, "Because I like to sleep at night."
> >>
> >> There are plenty of people around here who are working illegally, not
> >> paying insurance nor taxes, and don't know any better who can work for
> >> these people. No more, for me.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Good for you...as long as you can afford to pass up the work.
> >
> > If you really want to see some shortcuts, check out student housing. Even
> > the really "nice" places, those that command the higher rents, are held
> > together with Harbor Freight chewing gum.
> >
>
> "Harbor Freight chewing gum." LMAO!!
> Good one.
>
> I lived in a college town for 15 years... I've seen it all. :-)

Have you seen a U shaped dining room table? I don't mean U shaped on the horizontal
plane, I mean U shaped *vertically*.

My daughter lived in an apartment where they build a short wall on one side of the
living room to create a "dining room" area. Picture a booth at a diner. One bench on the
real wall, one bench on the short wall, with a long table in between. You could sit 4 people
on each side so you get an idea of how long the table was.

They built the table out of particle board with a ledger board on one end and a couple of
legs on the other. No support along the length. Over the years the center had sunk down so
much that you could see the slant on outer legs. One of the more ingenious residents put a large
wooden cutting board in the middle of the table as sort of a bridge to create flat area. You could literally see the slant in a cup of liquid.

Trust me, there was lots of spilt beer on that table. The would have to lift up the cutting
board to clean up all the liquid that pooled in the gully.

On 2/8/2018 11:04 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/8/18 10:23 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/7/2018 11:50 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 2/7/18 11:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, I guess there's always that.  I can quote a price, if they
>>> don't bite... fine.
>>
>> Exactly and FWIW I helped a buddy do this type work for about 5 years
>> and we found that if there was a job we really did not want to do, too
>> many days to complete, he would bid high.  And oddly his high bid
>> often won.
>>
>
> I'm starting a big deck repair job next week which is probably too big
> for one guy... or at least 2 guys would get it done in 1/4-1/3 of the
> time it would take one guy.
>
> There's another drummer I know in town who does incredible deck work.
> He's been trying to get me to go in on some jobs with him because he's a
> one-man-band, like me.
> So I figured this was a good job to use as a guinea pig for
> collaboration.  We are both ship captain types, so we'll see how it goes
> working together.
>
> Since he does so much deck work so I told him to take the lead and he
> said he'd spec out the materials and pricing.  He said he thought it
> would take the two us us 3 days to do the job and asked me what I thought.
> I said, "My guts says we can do it 2, but it always takes me twice as
> long as I think to do something."  I told him, "Why don't you quote it
> for the 4-day price and if he balks you can always say, 'Let me see if I
> can crunch the numbers some more and I'll get back to you,' and then we
> can quote him the 3-day price and we're still good."  He thought that
> was brilliant.
> The client readily accepted the 4-day price, so we ended up with plenty
> of headroom for this gig.
>
>


There is something about a high quote that equates to quality of work...
I would say to do your best and it is likely you will get more work
out of this. Noting better than word of mouth.
And it is more fun working along side some one that is at least equal to
you in talent.

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 19:22:09 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2/8/18 4:50 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> You get to select two out of these three:  Cheaper price, Quality Work,
>> Fast Work.  You get only two.  If somebody promises you all three
>> (holding up three fingers), they really are only giving you this
>> (extending only my middle finger).  It never failed to bring a smile and
>> usually closed the deal.  ;)
>>
>
>Help me understand this.
>I understand that Cheaper Price, Fast work results in low quality.
>And quality work, fast work results in higher price.
>
>But if you give them Cheaper price, Quality Work, but not fast, then
>you're probably not making very little the hour and not making money.

They get to wait until you're not doing anything more profitable?

On 2/10/2018 8:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/10/18 8:02 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 6:07:56 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 2/9/18 9:34 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 2/8/18 11:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> Hmmmm.  Guess I am lucky, or special.  I've never done a construction
>>>>> job where I did not do it right.  On the paying jobs I've done, I
>>>>> always said this is what I am going to do and this is what it will
>>>>> cost.  No discussion or arguing to that.  On the non paying jobs I
>>>>> just say this is what it costs for the parts and my labor of course
>>>>> is donated.  There is no arguing over the parts.
>>>>

[snip]

>>> Here's the rotted jamb.
>>> http://mikedrums.com/door_jam_rot_before.jpg
>>> Here's the repair.
>>> http://mikedrums.com/door_jamb_rot_after_comp.PNG
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Nice job.
>>
>> If I ever become a landlord I'll be sure to use you for my repair
>> work...as long as we can
>> agree on a price. ;-)
>>
>
> Haha!
> Remember my motto:  "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive."   :-D

In that case you can rest assured that he will at least use you for
insurance repair estimates! Snerk!

Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:41:57 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
>On 2/8/2018 12:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah, I guess there's always that.  I can quote a price, if they don't
>> bite... fine.
>> But man, it gets old dealing with the rolling eyes.
>> I had something in the music business I balled the B:B ratio.  Bullshit
>> to benefit.
>> Sometimes there's just way to much bullshit that outweighs the benefit.
>>
>> I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite motto...
>> "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive."    :-D
>>
>> I guess I just had to vent.
>>
>>
>I understand, your B:B ratio, it is not just construction, it is most
>every business. There are times it is best to walk away.
>I remember one customer calling me to say my quote had an error. It was
>something like:
>1000 pcs $1.00 each
>2000 pcs $1.50 each
>5000 pcs $2.00 each
>He ordered 1000 and found a new supplier.

I recall a story of a hotel chain wanting to decorate with a
"Tropical" theme, and commissioned a coconut carving for a prototype.
"No problem - Ten bucks."
They like the guys work, then say "We'd like a buttload more." He
said " Okay 15, each."
They wanted to know why he was charging so much, and he said, "the
first one is fun. After that, it becomes work."
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:23:42 -0600 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>>
>> I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite motto...
>> "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive."    :-D
>
>When I ran the Oldsmobile service department in downtown Houston, many
>years ago, I had a young service advisor that put me on the spot one
>after noon. Actually I was pretty young too, 29. Anyway he introduced
>me to a young lady customer of his and told me that she was having no
>luck with getting her vehicle repaired at the other Old's dealerships.
>The three of us were standing on the service drive when he told me again
>what he told her. Ms. So'n'so you can have confidence that we will get
>to the bottom of the problem and fix your car even if it takes every
>penny you have! WHATTTTTTTT. They both busted out laughing, they were
>dating and decided to pull one over on me. I fondly tell that story
>over and over.

How true. LOL.


Sigh, on the other hand - nothing like being told "Bill Gates
couldn't save this cat." Sometimes it is not a question of money, but
of reality.
>
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On 2/7/18 8:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 7:38:27 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> That's it! I'm sick of it.
>> I am now going to ask the question, "Are you the owner/occupier of this
>> property" before taking on any more repair work.
>> I've had it with realtors and landlords who not only want you to use a
>> band-aid fix for everything, but they want you to buy the band-aids at
>> BigLots.
>>
>> I finally told one, today, "You know, someone has to live here, right?"
>> She kept asking me which of the two repair options I would guarantee for
>> longer.
>> I actually chuckled and replied, "Oh, I'm not guaranteeing either of
>> these options. I'll guarantee the work if you let me do it right."
>>
>> They're trying to save a couple hundred dollars on a house they'll get
>> $2500 a month for in rent or make 50 grand on the sale.
>>
>> One realtor asked me, "Why won't you just do it the way I want you to do
>> it."
>> I said, "Because I like to sleep at night."
>>
>> There are plenty of people around here who are working illegally, not
>> paying insurance nor taxes, and don't know any better who can work for
>> these people. No more, for me.
>>
>>
>
> Good for you...as long as you can afford to pass up the work.
>
> If you really want to see some shortcuts, check out student housing. Even
> the really "nice" places, those that command the higher rents, are held
> together with Harbor Freight chewing gum.
>

"Harbor Freight chewing gum." LMAO!!
Good one.

I lived in a college town for 15 years... I've seen it all. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/7/18 11:34 PM, Leon wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> That's it! I'm sick of it.
>> I am now going to ask the question, "Are you the owner/occupier of this
>> property" before taking on any more repair work.
>> I've had it with realtors and landlords who not only want you to use a
>> band-aid fix for everything, but they want you to buy the band-aids at
>> BigLots.
>>
>> I finally told one, today, "You know, someone has to live here, right?"
>> She kept asking me which of the two repair options I would guarantee for
>> longer.
>> I actually chuckled and replied, "Oh, I'm not guaranteeing either of
>> these options. I'll guarantee the work if you let me do it right."
>>
>> They're trying to save a couple hundred dollars on a house they'll get
>> $2500 a month for in rent or make 50 grand on the sale.
>>
>> One realtor asked me, "Why won't you just do it the way I want you to do
>> it."
>> I said, "Because I like to sleep at night."
>>
>> There are plenty of people around here who are working illegally, not
>> paying insurance nor taxes, and don't know any better who can work for
>> these people. No more, for me.
>>
>>
>
> They have a lot of work to be offered. I would not turn them down, I
> would simply give them a price you are comfortable with, no compromising
> your integrity.
>

Yeah, I guess there's always that. I can quote a price, if they don't
bite... fine.
But man, it gets old dealing with the rolling eyes.
I had something in the music business I balled the B:B ratio. Bullshit
to benefit.
Sometimes there's just way to much bullshit that outweighs the benefit.

I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite motto...
"I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive." :-D

I guess I just had to vent.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/8/18 10:23 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/7/2018 11:50 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/7/18 11:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I guess there's always that.  I can quote a price, if they don't
>> bite... fine.
>
> Exactly and FWIW I helped a buddy do this type work for about 5 years
> and we found that if there was a job we really did not want to do, too
> many days to complete, he would bid high.  And oddly his high bid often
> won.
>

I'm starting a big deck repair job next week which is probably too big
for one guy... or at least 2 guys would get it done in 1/4-1/3 of the
time it would take one guy.

There's another drummer I know in town who does incredible deck work.
He's been trying to get me to go in on some jobs with him because he's a
one-man-band, like me.
So I figured this was a good job to use as a guinea pig for
collaboration. We are both ship captain types, so we'll see how it goes
working together.

Since he does so much deck work so I told him to take the lead and he
said he'd spec out the materials and pricing. He said he thought it
would take the two us us 3 days to do the job and asked me what I thought.
I said, "My guts says we can do it 2, but it always takes me twice as
long as I think to do something." I told him, "Why don't you quote it
for the 4-day price and if he balks you can always say, 'Let me see if I
can crunch the numbers some more and I'll get back to you,' and then we
can quote him the 3-day price and we're still good." He thought that
was brilliant.
The client readily accepted the 4-day price, so we ended up with plenty
of headroom for this gig.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/8/18 11:21 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/8/2018 11:04 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/8/18 10:23 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 2/7/2018 11:50 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 2/7/18 11:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I guess there's always that.  I can quote a price, if they
>>>> don't bite... fine.
>>>
>>> Exactly and FWIW I helped a buddy do this type work for about 5 years
>>> and we found that if there was a job we really did not want to do,
>>> too many days to complete, he would bid high.  And oddly his high bid
>>> often won.
>>>
>>
>> I'm starting a big deck repair job next week which is probably too big
>> for one guy... or at least 2 guys would get it done in 1/4-1/3 of the
>> time it would take one guy.
>>
>> There's another drummer I know in town who does incredible deck work.
>> He's been trying to get me to go in on some jobs with him because he's
>> a one-man-band, like me.
>> So I figured this was a good job to use as a guinea pig for
>> collaboration.  We are both ship captain types, so we'll see how it
>> goes working together.
>>
>> Since he does so much deck work so I told him to take the lead and he
>> said he'd spec out the materials and pricing.  He said he thought it
>> would take the two us us 3 days to do the job and asked me what I
>> thought.
>> I said, "My guts says we can do it 2, but it always takes me twice as
>> long as I think to do something."  I told him, "Why don't you quote it
>> for the 4-day price and if he balks you can always say, 'Let me see if
>> I can crunch the numbers some more and I'll get back to you,' and then
>> we can quote him the 3-day price and we're still good."  He thought
>> that was brilliant.
>> The client readily accepted the 4-day price, so we ended up with
>> plenty of headroom for this gig.
>>
>>
>
>
> There is something about a high quote that equates to quality of work...

I've been trying to convince this guy that he needs to charge more. A
LOT more.
He's done a couple gorgeous decks that I know he took a bath on. Sort
of spec house jobs that he can build a portfolio around.
He does exquisite work and doesn't cut any corners. There is demand for
his kind of decks around here and he just needs to get in the right
circles. "If you build it, they will pay." :-)


>  I would say to do your best and it is likely you will get more work
> out of this.  Noting better than word of mouth.
> And it is more fun working along side some one that is at least equal to
> you in talent.

That's what I'm hoping.
I know we'll do the same quality work no matter what we're paid, so we
might as well get paid. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/8/18 11:31 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:41:57 -0500 typed in
> rec.woodworking the following:
>> On 2/8/2018 12:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, I guess there's always that.  I can quote a price, if they don't
>>> bite... fine.
>>> But man, it gets old dealing with the rolling eyes.
>>> I had something in the music business I balled the B:B ratio.  Bullshit
>>> to benefit.
>>> Sometimes there's just way to much bullshit that outweighs the benefit.
>>>
>>> I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite motto...
>>> "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive."    :-D
>>>
>>> I guess I just had to vent.
>>>
>>>
>> I understand, your B:B ratio, it is not just construction, it is most
>> every business. There are times it is best to walk away.
>> I remember one customer calling me to say my quote had an error. It was
>> something like:
>> 1000 pcs $1.00 each
>> 2000 pcs $1.50 each
>> 5000 pcs $2.00 each
>> He ordered 1000 and found a new supplier.
>
> I recall a story of a hotel chain wanting to decorate with a
> "Tropical" theme, and commissioned a coconut carving for a prototype.
> "No problem - Ten bucks."
> They like the guys work, then say "We'd like a buttload more." He
> said " Okay 15, each."
> They wanted to know why he was charging so much, and he said, "the
> first one is fun. After that, it becomes work."
>

Absolutely!!
That's how it is on many projects I've done. I take on lots of builds
simply because I've never done one before. When those clients say, "Oh,
we'll tell all our friends about you and your work." I always reply,
"That's awesome, just don't tell them what I charged." :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/7/2018 5:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> That's it!  I'm sick of it.
> I am now going to ask the question, "Are you the owner/occupier of this
> property" before taking on any more repair work.
> I've had it with realtors and landlords who not only want you to use a
> band-aid fix for everything, but they want you to buy the band-aids at
> BigLots.
>
> I finally told one, today, "You know, someone has to live here, right?"
> She kept asking me which of the two repair options I would guarantee for
> longer.
> I actually chuckled and replied, "Oh, I'm not guaranteeing either of
> these options.  I'll guarantee the work if you let me do it right."
>
> They're trying to save a couple hundred dollars on a house they'll get
> $2500 a month for in rent or make 50 grand on the sale.
>
> One realtor asked me, "Why won't you just do it the way I want you to do
> it."
> I said, "Because I like to sleep at night."
>
> There are plenty of people around here who are working illegally, not
> paying insurance nor taxes, and don't know any better who can work for
> these people.  No more, for me.
>
>


HA! I put a fire alarm in commercial building once for the owner. The
realtor (building manager) blamed me for everything. Sprinklers didn't
work. Automatic lights. Whatever. Worse I get called over to check it
out, and nobody knew anything and nobody could let me into anywhere. I
finally told her to stop calling me to trouble shoot all her problems
for free, becaus ethe fire alarm passed inspection and works perfectly.
The rest is just manipulating me to get free labor. The very next day I
got a call from the building owner telling me his building manager had
said he would be better off getting another alarm company. Irene Crites
(Crites and Associates) was the building manager, just in case you are
ever in Yuma. I am sure she is an absolute doll to work for and it was
just me. LOL.

On 2/8/18 4:15 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 1:12:58 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/8/18 11:31 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:41:57 -0500
>>> typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>>>> On 2/8/2018 12:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I guess there's always that. I can quote a price, if
>>>>> they don't bite... fine. But man, it gets old dealing with
>>>>> the rolling eyes. I had something in the music business I
>>>>> balled the B:B ratio. Bullshit to benefit. Sometimes there's
>>>>> just way to much bullshit that outweighs the benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess for these types of clients I'll break out my favorite
>>>>> motto... "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive." :-D
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I just had to vent.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I understand, your B:B ratio, it is not just construction, it
>>>> is most every business. There are times it is best to walk
>>>> away. I remember one customer calling me to say my quote had an
>>>> error. It was something like: 1000 pcs $1.00 each 2000 pcs
>>>> $1.50 each 5000 pcs $2.00 each He ordered 1000 and found a new
>>>> supplier.
>>>
>>> I recall a story of a hotel chain wanting to decorate with a
>>> "Tropical" theme, and commissioned a coconut carving for a
>>> prototype. "No problem - Ten bucks." They like the guys work,
>>> then say "We'd like a buttload more." He said " Okay 15, each."
>>> They wanted to know why he was charging so much, and he said,
>>> "the first one is fun. After that, it becomes work."
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely!! That's how it is on many projects I've done. I take
>> on lots of builds simply because I've never done one before. When
>> those clients say, "Oh, we'll tell all our friends about you and
>> your work." I always reply, "That's awesome, just don't tell them
>> what I charged." :-)
>>
>>
>
> If it were me, I wouldn't reply in that manner. I'm of the mind that
> it only takes one negative sounding comment - even if said in a
> joking manner - to sour a deal.
>

I generally have a great relationship with my clients.
I think that's why I get called back so often.


> I figure "Why even put that thought in their head?" All it does is
> get them thinking "Hmmm... maybe I should shop around next time." Or
> when they are talking to their friends, they may remember what you
> said and pass it on - even jokingly - but their friends don't know
> how good of a job you did. All they hear is "He's expensive."
>

Sorry, I may not have communicated what I was trying to say clearly
enough.
These types of starter projects are the ones I usually don't charge
enough for. In other words, the client got a killer deal on a superior
product and I ate the loss because I wanted to do the project for fun
and as a learning experience.
What I say, "Don't tell them what I charged," I'm saying that so the
people they refer me to don't expect to get the same uber-discounted
price they did.

I've gone through the same thing in the music business. Doing sessions
for $25 a song, just to get a foot in the door. But telling the
producers not to expect that rate in the future or spread the word that
I worked that cheap. No one wants to be the $25/song guy for 2 reasons.
1. You lose your shirt.
2. People assume you suck if you're that cheap.
Same thing applies in the trades.


> "Thank you. It was great working with you. If your friends are as
> nice as you, I would love to work with them." That's a response that
> makes them feel good about themselves. You leave them feeling
> positive, not wondering if you charged them too much, even if it's
> just the tiniest little bit of a thought.
>

I have a huge percentage of call-back clients and I'm very confident in
my "bedside manner," but I believe it's the confusion pointed out above
that led you to offer that sage advice. ;-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/8/18 4:50 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> You get to select two out of these three:  Cheaper price, Quality Work,
> Fast Work.  You get only two.  If somebody promises you all three
> (holding up three fingers), they really are only giving you this
> (extending only my middle finger).  It never failed to bring a smile and
> usually closed the deal.  ;)
>

Help me understand this.
I understand that Cheaper Price, Fast work results in low quality.
And quality work, fast work results in higher price.

But if you give them Cheaper price, Quality Work, but not fast, then
you're probably not making very little the hour and not making money.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/8/18 11:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Hmmmm. Guess I am lucky, or special. I've never done a construction
> job where I did not do it right. On the paying jobs I've done, I
> always said this is what I am going to do and this is what it will
> cost. No discussion or arguing to that. On the non paying jobs I
> just say this is what it costs for the parts and my labor of course
> is donated. There is no arguing over the parts.
>

I have a saying, "There are a million ways to do something, and one
right way."
So I think we are in the same camp for the most part.

In this particular case, there is wood rot around at the bottom of a
door jamb, at the threshold, that allowed water to get inside the house
and under the finished flooring.

To do it "right" would mean removing the entire door frame to inspect
for damage and possible rotted wood underneath, which is how I advised
the landlord. Then replace the rotted section with a composite material
or replace the entire jamb with composite material (about $50 for pvc
door frame). This is the way it would be done in order to be able to
guarantee no further damage.

After asking me the "what would you do it it was your house?" question
and explaining the above, the only option the landlord allowed in the
discussion was to patch the rotted wood section. There are two ways to
do this. Cut and scab or use a 2-part filler.

At this point, I have the option of walking away and refusing the job,
or accepting a specific repair request and doing it the best way
possible. There are literally a million of these rotting door jambs
within a 25 mile radius of me and having a cost effective way to
"repair" them could be a lucrative specialty business all in itself.

I have used both methods of repair, depending on the specific situation,
and they both do the job well. However, neither address other existing
rot or future potential rotting. For example, I have seen wood rot that
presented itself as being caused by water settling at the threshold/jamb
corner, but it was actually being caused by water getting behind brick
at the top of the door where it wasn't flashed properly and running down
the inside and settling at the threshold, rotting the jamb from the
inside out (and about 6" of jack stud as well). It rotted the stud
first, then the jamb.

All that to say, I guess I can do this repair "right" without doing it
"right."
Meaning, I'm being hired to patch some rotted wood and I'll do it right.
I'll use a high quality band-aid and apply it correctly and get paid.
But I can't guarantee it'll stop the bleeding somewhere else.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/10/18 12:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> MIKE... I have found that many realtors are clinically, irretrievably
> stupid. One could speculate brain damage and not be out of line. I
> work with one or two a year, and that's it.
>
> I used to have a lot of realtors that called and wanted full
> estimates in writing, only to find that they wanted and estimate from
> a reputable company to take to closing to make sure that repair
> expenses were covered. I was nothing more than a bargaining chip
> with no intention of being asked to the work.
> .......
>
> I try to stay away from realtors, period. When you say you provide
> free estimates, they think you are a public service provided by some
> rich foundation so it is no big deal for you to spend a few days
> measuring, finding product, estimating costs, and writing up a
> legally binding contract. Hey, if it's free to them, it must be cheap
> and nearly free to do, right?
>

That's a huge problem, right there.
They just want an estimate to use as a bargaining point to get the
seller to come down on price. In most cases, they never intend for the
work to even be done.


> And I am tired of hearing the same old warmup when I meet on site.
> "Well, Robert, I just want you to know who you will be bidding
> against. I have a old guy in his 70s that is blind in one eye, and
> doesn't have all the "fancy" tools, but can do work for me real
> cheap. You are here because I couldn't find him for a couple of
> weeks, and his daughter told me he couldn't come to work for me
> because his truck is in the shop and he can't get it out because he
> doesn't have any money. She told me it was vandalized when someone
> stole all his tools. He didn't return my phone calls because he
> never set up his voice mail and forgets to charge his phone so we
> never connected and I didn't know all of that. I usually have to
> give him half down on any repairs, but I don't think we can do that
> this time. Did I mention how cheap he works?"
>

I tell people, straight up, I'm not going to be the cheapest guy and I
don't want to be.
I say there will always be somebody who will do it cheaper and they may
even be doing it all legally. :-)


> What a contrast. Most of the realtors I know also think (no doubt
> from hours of the DIY/Flip This House watching) that they really
> designers at heart. If a house needs more than a paint job, you have
> to indulge them while they "share their vision" of opening up a
> space, making a room more dramatic, and bringing more light into an
> area. My commercial folks are more along the line of "hey Robert,
> can we get this in under 2K? Yeah? How soon?" I bid for the office
> finish outs, but for the most part pissing away two weeks of phone
> calls and discussions for a $500 repair job just isn't worth their
> time.

You said it perfectly, many realtors see themselves as designers.
I see it like the old saying,
"Music critics are usually poor musicians who couldn't make it in the
music business."
HGTV is good and bad for our business. I get to install (and remove in
10 years) all the silly fads on those shows. Barn doors, ship lap
paneling, etc., etc.

I don't now how Realtors still make a living. Wait, yes I do. The
buyer's and seller's agents each get 3%. Lame. Seller's agent, I get.
But a buyer's agent!?
What do they do!? Heck, 9 out of 10 houses our last agent brought to
the table, we had already seen on Zillow.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/9/18 9:34 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/8/18 11:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> Hmmmm.  Guess I am lucky, or special.  I've never done a construction
>> job where I did not do it right.  On the paying jobs I've done, I
>> always said this is what I am going to do and this is what it will
>> cost.  No discussion or arguing to that.  On the non paying jobs I
>> just say this is what it costs for the parts and my labor of course
>> is donated.  There is no arguing over the parts.
>>
>
> I have a saying, "There are a million ways to do something, and one
> right way."
> So I think we are in the same camp for the most part.
>
> In this particular case, there is wood rot around at the bottom of a
> door jamb, at the threshold, that allowed water to get inside the house
> and under the finished flooring.
>
> To do it "right" would mean removing the entire door frame to inspect
> for damage and possible rotted wood underneath, which is how I advised
> the landlord.  Then replace the rotted section with a composite material
> or replace the entire jamb with composite material (about $50 for pvc
> door frame).  This is the way it would be done in order to be able to
> guarantee no further damage.
>
> After asking me the "what would you do it it was your house?" question
> and explaining the above, the only option the landlord allowed in the
> discussion was to patch the rotted wood section.  There are two ways to
> do this.  Cut and scab or use a 2-part filler.
>
> At this point, I have the option of walking away and refusing the job,
> or accepting a specific repair request and doing it the best way
> possible.  There are literally a million of these rotting door jambs
> within a 25 mile radius of me and having a cost effective way to
> "repair" them could be a lucrative specialty business all in itself.
>
> I have used both methods of repair, depending on the specific situation,
> and they both do the job well.  However, neither address other existing
> rot or future potential rotting.  For example, I have seen wood rot that
> presented itself as being caused by water settling at the threshold/jamb
> corner, but it was actually being caused by water getting behind brick
> at the top of the door where it wasn't flashed properly and running down
> the inside and settling at the threshold, rotting the jamb from the
> inside out (and about 6" of jack stud as well).  It rotted the stud
> first, then the jamb.
>
> All that to say, I guess I can do this repair "right" without doing it
> "right."
> Meaning, I'm being hired to patch some rotted wood and I'll do it right.
> I'll use a high quality band-aid and apply it correctly and get paid.
> But I can't guarantee it'll stop the bleeding somewhere else.
>

I ended up using two 2-part epoxy products that I've used before. Both
are exterior and completely waterproof.
The first is Elmer's Damaged Wood Repair System which is great for
filling big voids.
The second is Bondo All-Purpose Putty, which is the same thing as their
2-part wood filler, sans the wood fiber. Unless you're staining, use
the all-purpose-- you get twice as much for the price.

I've used the 2-part Bondo wood filler before and love it. It sets up
very fast and you can build coats quickly and sand within 15-30 minutes.

The day before, I applied Minwax Wood Hardener which works really well
to stabilize softer wood and prime it for sticking to the epoxy.

I filled the deep voids with the Elmers. It has a 1-hour work time and
"cures" overnight, so it is slower than other 2-part products. However,
it doesn't need to be totally cured to build over. I went to lunch to
let it stiffen up.

Next, I applied the first coat of Bondo putty and let it stiffen enough
that I could "work it" some. About halfway through the catalyst cycle
it becomes a bit like play-doh and can be mushed around into shape.
Using a plastic putty knife sprayed with acetone, you can work it like
pottery clay. About 15 minutes later, it's ready for sanding.

I had a pretty good finished shape after the 1st layer of Bondo filler,
with some light filling to finish it up. Another feathering coat and
some sanding and it was done.

The paint you see is a Zinsser exterior primer that looks better than
the paint on the rest of the door frame. There are some tiny voids and
paint bubbles that I would normally touch-up and smooth out, but since
this repaired section looks a lot better than the rest of the door
frame, the client was happy with the end product. They have a painter
coming in to do the whole house, so they will do the detail work on the
door.

Here's the rotted jamb.
http://mikedrums.com/door_jam_rot_before.jpg
Here's the repair.
http://mikedrums.com/door_jamb_rot_after_comp.PNG


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/10/18 8:02 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 6:07:56 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/9/18 9:34 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 2/8/18 11:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> Hmmmm.  Guess I am lucky, or special.  I've never done a construction
>>>> job where I did not do it right.  On the paying jobs I've done, I
>>>> always said this is what I am going to do and this is what it will
>>>> cost.  No discussion or arguing to that.  On the non paying jobs I
>>>> just say this is what it costs for the parts and my labor of course
>>>> is donated.  There is no arguing over the parts.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have a saying, "There are a million ways to do something, and one
>>> right way."
>>> So I think we are in the same camp for the most part.
>>>
>>> In this particular case, there is wood rot around at the bottom of a
>>> door jamb, at the threshold, that allowed water to get inside the house
>>> and under the finished flooring.
>>>
>>> To do it "right" would mean removing the entire door frame to inspect
>>> for damage and possible rotted wood underneath, which is how I advised
>>> the landlord.  Then replace the rotted section with a composite material
>>> or replace the entire jamb with composite material (about $50 for pvc
>>> door frame).  This is the way it would be done in order to be able to
>>> guarantee no further damage.
>>>
>>> After asking me the "what would you do it it was your house?" question
>>> and explaining the above, the only option the landlord allowed in the
>>> discussion was to patch the rotted wood section.  There are two ways to
>>> do this.  Cut and scab or use a 2-part filler.
>>>
>>> At this point, I have the option of walking away and refusing the job,
>>> or accepting a specific repair request and doing it the best way
>>> possible.  There are literally a million of these rotting door jambs
>>> within a 25 mile radius of me and having a cost effective way to
>>> "repair" them could be a lucrative specialty business all in itself.
>>>
>>> I have used both methods of repair, depending on the specific situation,
>>> and they both do the job well.  However, neither address other existing
>>> rot or future potential rotting.  For example, I have seen wood rot that
>>> presented itself as being caused by water settling at the threshold/jamb
>>> corner, but it was actually being caused by water getting behind brick
>>> at the top of the door where it wasn't flashed properly and running down
>>> the inside and settling at the threshold, rotting the jamb from the
>>> inside out (and about 6" of jack stud as well).  It rotted the stud
>>> first, then the jamb.
>>>
>>> All that to say, I guess I can do this repair "right" without doing it
>>> "right."
>>> Meaning, I'm being hired to patch some rotted wood and I'll do it right.
>>> I'll use a high quality band-aid and apply it correctly and get paid.
>>> But I can't guarantee it'll stop the bleeding somewhere else.
>>>
>>
>> I ended up using two 2-part epoxy products that I've used before. Both
>> are exterior and completely waterproof.
>> The first is Elmer's Damaged Wood Repair System which is great for
>> filling big voids.
>> The second is Bondo All-Purpose Putty, which is the same thing as their
>> 2-part wood filler, sans the wood fiber. Unless you're staining, use
>> the all-purpose-- you get twice as much for the price.
>>
>> I've used the 2-part Bondo wood filler before and love it. It sets up
>> very fast and you can build coats quickly and sand within 15-30 minutes.
>>
>> The day before, I applied Minwax Wood Hardener which works really well
>> to stabilize softer wood and prime it for sticking to the epoxy.
>>
>> I filled the deep voids with the Elmers. It has a 1-hour work time and
>> "cures" overnight, so it is slower than other 2-part products. However,
>> it doesn't need to be totally cured to build over. I went to lunch to
>> let it stiffen up.
>>
>> Next, I applied the first coat of Bondo putty and let it stiffen enough
>> that I could "work it" some. About halfway through the catalyst cycle
>> it becomes a bit like play-doh and can be mushed around into shape.
>> Using a plastic putty knife sprayed with acetone, you can work it like
>> pottery clay. About 15 minutes later, it's ready for sanding.
>>
>> I had a pretty good finished shape after the 1st layer of Bondo filler,
>> with some light filling to finish it up. Another feathering coat and
>> some sanding and it was done.
>>
>> The paint you see is a Zinsser exterior primer that looks better than
>> the paint on the rest of the door frame. There are some tiny voids and
>> paint bubbles that I would normally touch-up and smooth out, but since
>> this repaired section looks a lot better than the rest of the door
>> frame, the client was happy with the end product. They have a painter
>> coming in to do the whole house, so they will do the detail work on the
>> door.
>>
>> Here's the rotted jamb.
>> http://mikedrums.com/door_jam_rot_before.jpg
>> Here's the repair.
>> http://mikedrums.com/door_jamb_rot_after_comp.PNG
>>
>>
>
> Nice job.
>
> If I ever become a landlord I'll be sure to use you for my repair work...as long as we can
> agree on a price. ;-)
>

Haha!
Remember my motto: "I may be slow, but at least I'm expensive." :-D


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 2/8/2018 7:46 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 19:22:09 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/8/18 4:50 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>>> You get to select two out of these three:  Cheaper price, Quality Work,
>>> Fast Work.  You get only two.  If somebody promises you all three
>>> (holding up three fingers), they really are only giving you this
>>> (extending only my middle finger).  It never failed to bring a smile and
>>> usually closed the deal.  ;)
>>>
>>
>> Help me understand this.
>> I understand that Cheaper Price, Fast work results in low quality.
>> And quality work, fast work results in higher price.
>>
>> But if you give them Cheaper price, Quality Work, but not fast, then
>> you're probably not making very little the hour and not making money.
>
> They get to wait until you're not doing anything more profitable?

Correct in part, but there's more to the equation than that. See my
previous response to -MIKE-

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>-MIKE- <[email protected]> on Thu, 8 Feb 2018 19:22:09 -0600 typed
>in rec.woodworking the following:
>>
>>Help me understand this.
>>I understand that Cheaper Price, Fast work results in low quality.
>>And quality work, fast work results in higher price.
>>
>>But if you give them Cheaper price, Quality Work, but not fast, then
>>you're probably not making very little the hour and not making money.
>

>I read an essay by a professional furniture maker, who said that
>the finest furniture he's seen, was made by his neighbor the
>accountant. Because his neighbor could afford to take the time to
>select materials, work the materials, take all the pains eh cared to
>take, because _he_ was not depending on something selling to pay the
>bills. Whereas he, the professional, need to have X number of items
>go out the door a month in order to have Y dollars come back in, to
>pay bills, paychecks and overhead.

>So, yeah, if I'm working on something, I can take the time I need.


This was a topic of discussion over dinner one evening during my club's
show... I went out with Doug Stowe (a former rec participant) and the other
professional presenters and to a man they agreed that the best work will
come out of amateurs. This because they can take all the time they want,
learn all they want, and in some cases spend all the money they want, in
creating the object. On the other hand, the professionals have to worry
about making a living. As I recall, they also wished they'd become
commercial successes about 10 years sooner... their early years as studio
woodworkers were lean. This was clearly a shared experience even if they
did it independently...

Most years I go out to dinner with the professionals and it is a very
stimulating experience. The degree to which they delve into woodworking goes
far beyond the techniques that most show goers seek when attending the
presentations. On a related note, at another organization's show, I recall
Mario Rodriguez saying that good design is the hard part... after than you
can always manage to put it together. This was code for the joinery is the
easy part... yet the beginning to middling hobbyist woodworker often
struggles with the joinery and help with that is what folks seek at the show
presentations.