Hi All,
I'm a part time paint contractor and I'm thinking of including a
laminate flooring in my services (I paint mostly condos). I have layed
a couple of laminate floors myself but I used circular saw for cutting
the laminate. Now, that would work if I work during regular hours, but
condo corporations don't allow high noise after 5 p.m. and during the
weekends, which is the time when I paint mostly. So, one option will be
to do all the prep work in the evening (carpet removal, vaccuming,
subfloor laying) and to hire someone to work on the laminate during the
day. Or, to lay the laminate after hours using some low noise saw. I
found some good looking Mastercraft mitre hand saw and it looks like
that's the best option, but I still think that it must be some other
power saw on the market that is not noisy. I thought to put the power
saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea which
low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
Thanks in advance.
Yes, no kickback either! I hadn't thought of that...but I'm sure that
will be on the first brochures when they start churning them out.
Scorching? By the time these things come out, all wood will be MDF
and need to be painted anyway :-)
Seriously, though, the *pulsed* lasers that do LASIK eye correction
DON'T SCORCH (they vaporize the wood before it burns)... they could
make a stopped, flat-bottomed hole in wood that looks like that you
made it with a forstner bit on your drill press but with 0.0001"
accuracy and no brad-point left in the bottom if you add a modicum of
CNC technology.
And, if you wanted to thru-drill, that's another good thing... ZERO
TEAR OUT!
One of the best uses is making those damned square mortise holes --
nobody's every pefected that satisfactorily. And even if you do have
the el-cheapo scorching version of the laser, we don't care a lot
inside a joint.
The price of anything initially (in "prototype" quantities) is quite
costly... but you can go to the dollar store and get a laser pointer
now for a buck... when they first came out they were a hundred bucks!
And don't forget, with a pulsed laser, the power is concentrated in a
short burst resulting in *much* lower wattage.
It might seem dangerous by today's standards, but again, look at the
LASIK lasers... they're a foot from your eyeball pointed directly at
your eyeball!
Brad nailers and Hilti guns have quite a "range" too, and probably
seemed scary when they were first invented.
In rec.woodworking PC Paul <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Well, you can see how this would kill lots of industries overnight, so
>> they'll never let us have them.
>
> I'll bite.
>
> Cutting wood by essentially burning it away is a bit different to cutting
> metal... I guess for studwork a bit of scorching wouldn't matter so much,
> but for fine furniture? No thanks.
>
> Also, the systems I've looked at in a quick google (up to 450W CO2 Lasers)
> can only cut a max of 1" thickness. And a 450W laser is a hefty bit of kit
> with a hefty price tag. Although I see EBay has a 3500W laser setup on
> Buy-it-now for only $249,995.
>
> Not to mention that saw cutting is only dangerous to people within reach of
> the blade plus a bit for kickback. A high powered cutting laser would be a
> danger to anyone in a pretty wide range, even if it was initially contained
> inside the workshop. Want your dozy neghbour to have one?
>
>
>
>
>
Upscale wrote:
> "ddt_toronto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea which
> > low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
>
> Only type of portable power saw that I can think of that would be suitable
> is a chop saw and they're not known for their quietness. There's usually
> other options of interest than noise.
> Cutting laminates for floors needs usually needs an exact 90=B0. Only oth=
er
> option I can think of is a handsaw for the initial cut and then some type=
of
> professional cut off box that uses a shear to cut the last 1/4" of materi=
al
> to size. There's a few high end sheer cutters of that type are used in
> picture making, maybe there's some that cut at 90=B0.
Seems the best way to me, if pricey. Cut nearly to length with a hand
miter saw, then shave to exact length with the Pootatuck Lion Miter
Trimmer. It does do squaring. The clones out there may also do
squaring. I think Grizzly distributes one.
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > to size. There's a few high end sheer cutters of that type are used in
> > picture making, maybe there's some that cut at 90=B0.
>
> Seems the best way to me, if pricey. Cut nearly to length with a hand
> miter saw, then shave to exact length with the Pootatuck Lion Miter
> Trimmer. It does do squaring. The clones out there may also do
> squaring. I think Grizzly distributes one.
>
> They would work with wood, but that laminate is pretty tough stuff. It w=
ill
> kill a carbide blade in short order. Do you think a trimmer can handle i=
t?
I'd guess the trimmer will handle it, but sharpening the cutters might
become a career. Still, it will do the job, I'm reasonably sure.
Upscale wrote:
> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > Yep, did a lot of work that way when I was starting out. A Japanese
> > pull saw (Dozuki) with a nice thin kerf makes it easy, if not quite as
> > fast as a power saw.
>
> A query about all these suggestions of hand saws. The OP was talking about
> doing flooring with a quiet saw. Can hand saws, even Dozuki hand saws cut=
a
> floor board so straight at 90=B0 and so finely finished that it's going to
> mate perfectly with an adjacent board? I've got to be honest here, I'm
> really sceptical.
I doubt it. I've got an old Stanley miter saw with, IIRC, a 6" tall x
30" long backsaw. That'll do it, if he can find one in decent shape for
less than a home mortgage payment. It won't do compounds, but it puts
all the fragile multi-use modern stuff to shame. And it will cut
flooring to about 9" wide, I believe. Sharpening is not as quick as
some handsaws (laminate, of course), but is easily done.
Prometheus wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:03:24 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>
> >> Yep, did a lot of work that way when I was starting out. A Japanese
> >> pull saw (Dozuki) with a nice thin kerf makes it easy, if not quite as
> >> fast as a power saw.
> >
> >A query about all these suggestions of hand saws. The OP was talking abo=
ut
> >doing flooring with a quiet saw. Can hand saws, even Dozuki hand saws cu=
t a
> >floor board so straight at 90=B0 and so finely finished that it's going =
to
> >mate perfectly with an adjacent board? I've got to be honest here, I'm
> >really sceptical.
>
> Sure it can. A saw is only as good as the guy using it, true- but a
> good handsaw can cut just as straight as any power tool, and better
> than some. Couple of things make it easier to get a good cut, in
> fact- first, it's a lot easier to follow a line, because the saw cuts
> at your pace, not at the pace of the motor, and you can adjust your
> stance *before* the entire piece is cut. Second, a dozuki has a ton
> of tiny little teeth that leave an edge like a good diablo blade.
>
Third, DAGS on "shooting board". This is a jig (or is it a fixture?)
that holds the board while guiding a plane is to shave off the
end grain cleaning up the saw cut. Typically a single pass is
all that is needed.
Hmm, since the shooting board holds the workpiece AND guides the
tool at the same time I guess a shooting board is both a jig
and a fixture.
--=20
FF
Upscale wrote:
> "Dave in Fairfax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was
> > smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high
> > quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV.
>
I don't know if the pax saws are high quality or not. The Independence
saws, now made by Lie Nielsen and the Adria saws both have a
great reputation. Possibly these are as good as the best antiques
you could find.
>
> It's ok, I'm not upset. I'm just keeping in mind the OP's request for a
> quiet way to produce cuts (night time operation) that are suitable for
> laying laminate flooring. Aside from the shearing method, or the edge
> planing method (which I feel is much too slow for production speed
> professional work) ...
I don't see why shearing or edge planing would be too slow. It
is one additonal step after cutting, but a quick one. Of course
there is time needed to hone the blade once every night or so
that's a quick job with the plane, don't know about the shear.
--
FF
Upscale wrote:
> ...
>
> The only saw apparatus that I've seen on the LV site that might produce c=
uts
> suitable for flooring is the mitre trimmer. It doesn't exactly say, but
> viewing it online suggests to me that it's capable of 90=B0 cuts.
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3D1&p=3D32922&cat=3D1,42884
It looks like the fence on the LHS is set up for 90 degree trimming.
--=20
FF
CW wrote:
> Something that impresses me during this discussion is that everyone is
> concentrating on hand saws and planes when laminate flooring is to be cut.
> This stuff kills carbide rapidly, I don't see any carbon steel blade
> standing up to it for any length of time.
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Upscale wrote:
> > > "Dave in Fairfax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was
> > > > smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high
> > > > quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV.
> > >
> >
> > I don't know if the pax saws are high quality or not. The Independence
> > saws, now made by Lie Nielsen and the Adria saws both have a
> > great reputation. Possibly these are as good as the best antiques
> > you could find.
> > ...
> > Of course
> > there is time needed to hone the blade once every night or so
> > that's a quick job with the plane, don't know about the shear.
> >
Of course we are, OP wanted a quiet saw. There are no quiet power
saws.
Honing the plane blade is a fast step.
Resharpening a Western style crosscut backsaw takes about
2-3 minutes, the teeth do not need to be jointed or set each
time it is sharpened.
Replacement blades for the less expensive Japanese style saws
are around $10, last I looked. A new blade should last
for a few nights' work.
--
FF
CW wrote:
> Ever cut any laminate flooring? The substance used in the topcoat, this is
> the stuff that gives it its wear resistance, is aluminum oxide. Talk to
> Norton about aluminum oxide. That's what they use to make oilstones from. I
> wouldn't touch a piece of laminate flooring with any plane or saw I cared
> about.
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Honing the plane blade is a fast step.
> >
> > Resharpening a Western style crosscut backsaw takes about
> > 2-3 minutes, the teeth do not need to be jointed or set each
> > time it is sharpened.
> >
> > Replacement blades for the less expensive Japanese style saws
> > are around $10, last I looked. A new blade should last
> > for a few nights' work.
> >
No, I haven't cut laminate flooring.
Sounds like he's SOL as far as finding a quiet saw that'll
do the job.
BTW, my oilstones are made from silicon carbide--harder than
alundum. I've used both alundum and silicon carbide to grind
glass and the silicon carbide in the same grit size is MUCH
faster.
Someday I'll try honing on ground glass.
--
FF
[email protected] writes:
>CW wrote:
>> Something that impresses me during this discussion is that everyone is
>> concentrating on hand saws and planes when laminate flooring is to be cut.
>Of course we are, OP wanted a quiet saw. There are no quiet power
>saws.
I made a "quiet power saw" by cutting 1/2" off the end of a Makita #79
reciprocating saw blade, and mounting it in a Ryobi scroll saw (which
has clamp-type blade mounts).
Don't laugh, it works!
The saw itself makes almost no noise at all. The noise comes from
vibration of the workpiece (as you might expect with any reciprocating
saw).
The scroll saw is designed for freehand cutting, so it doesn't have a
slot for a miter gauge. If you could rig up some kind of crosscut sled
with a quick-release clamp, it might work for the OP's project. I just
cut to a line by eye, which was close enough for what I was doing.
As someone else mentioned earlier, I think bandsaws also qualify as
"quiet power saws". But they're heavy and the OP needed something
portable (which is why I didn't use a bandsaw for my project).
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> to size. There's a few high end sheer cutters of that type are used in
> picture making, maybe there's some that cut at 90°.
Seems the best way to me, if pricey. Cut nearly to length with a hand
miter saw, then shave to exact length with the Pootatuck Lion Miter
Trimmer. It does do squaring. The clones out there may also do
squaring. I think Grizzly distributes one.
They would work with wood, but that laminate is pretty tough stuff. It will
kill a carbide blade in short order. Do you think a trimmer can handle it?
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:14:33 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> amusing was that after a while I had to intentionally make bad saw cuts. I
>> started getting perfect miter cuts with the hand saw while supporting the
>> work with the shooting board. Mind you I was using an L-N crosscut backsaw
>> but still, it was a handsaw.
>
>I guess I've got something to learn then. Much of my woodworking is done in
>an apartment where noise is of a concern and my biggest difficulty by far is
>getting straight, parallel cuts to my satisfaction.
Yeah, give a nice handsaw a try- you can't really get a good one at
the local borg these days, but you can order them from any of the
mail-order companies that cater to woodworkers. Using hand tools only
seems hard until you get a good one, and then it's a real eye-opener.
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's
>hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is
>merely uninformed conjectures.
Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it
with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a
handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may
not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but
that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring
has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a
dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a
nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I
did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use
for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think.
David wrote:
> ...
> >
> What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which
> makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide
> blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the
> already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide
> blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long
> straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up
> against walls. Any ideas?
>
The same guy who used to go arouns to the woodworkign shows and
sell the drill bits that drill through files etc, sold reciprocating
saw blades (sawzall and saber saw) that were edged with silicon
carbide abrasive. If you can find one of those or the equivalent,
they might do the job. You could make a handle for one of those to
make a pad saw for getting into really tight places.
Does that company have an online presence?
--
FF
David wrote:
>
> Prometheus wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's
> >>hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is
> >>merely uninformed conjectures.
> >
> >
> > Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it
> > with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a
> > handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may
> > not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but
> > that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring
> > has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a
> > dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a
> > nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I
> > did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use
> > for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which
> makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide
> blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the
> already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide
> blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long
> straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up
> against walls. Any ideas?
Router w/ uptwist bit and upper bearing guide if need really good finish
edge--otherwise, just hog it out and use the shoe mould to cover it
up...
Prometheus wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's
>>hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is
>>merely uninformed conjectures.
>
>
> Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it
> with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a
> handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may
> not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but
> that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring
> has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a
> dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a
> nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I
> did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use
> for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think.
>
>
>
>
What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which
makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide
blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the
already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide
blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long
straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up
against walls. Any ideas?
Dave
Dave
[email protected] wrote:
> David wrote:
>
>>...
>>
>>What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which
>>makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide
>>blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the
>>already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide
>>blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long
>>straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up
>>against walls. Any ideas?
>>
>
>
>
> The same guy who used to go arouns to the woodworkign shows and
> sell the drill bits that drill through files etc, sold reciprocating
> saw blades (sawzall and saber saw) that were edged with silicon
> carbide abrasive. If you can find one of those or the equivalent,
> they might do the job. You could make a handle for one of those to
> make a pad saw for getting into really tight places.
>
> Does that company have an online presence?
>
I just bought a carbide edged bit for my Sawzall but the stroke on the
Sawzall is over an inch long, which would have me cutting well through
the floor as well as the laminate.
Is there a jig-saw-like tool that cuts flush and has a carbide edged bit
available?? I could limit it's cutting depth by covering the laminate
with a block of wood and the stroke of a jigsaw should be a lot less
than my Sawzall.
Dave
Upscale wrote:
> Got a brand recommendation? Whatever I consider buying will have to be
> available somewhere in the Canadian market.
Maybe I'm missing something, look in your LV catalog. Last I heard,
Robin was in the GWN.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use: daveldr at att dot net
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http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.patinatools.org
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:52:03 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>Prometheus wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's
>>>hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is
>>>merely uninformed conjectures.
>>
>>
>> Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it
>> with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a
>> handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may
>> not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but
>> that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring
>> has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a
>> dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a
>> nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I
>> did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use
>> for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which
>makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide
>blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the
>already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide
>blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long
>straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up
>against walls. Any ideas?
Pergo. It seemed to cut fine to me, but YMMV.
That's a sticky job you've got there... I don't know much about the
Wilson Art flooring, but perhaps you could remove the trim and use a
really cheap abrasive disc in a 4" angle grinder? That'd get you
really close, and then you could knock out the rest with a sharp
chisel (Use a cheap chisel, of course)
Prometheus wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:52:03 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Prometheus wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's
>>>>hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is
>>>>merely uninformed conjectures.
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it
>>>with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a
>>>handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may
>>>not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but
>>>that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring
>>>has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a
>>>dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a
>>>nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I
>>>did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use
>>>for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which
>>makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide
>>blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the
>>already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide
>>blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long
>>straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up
>>against walls. Any ideas?
>
>
> Pergo. It seemed to cut fine to me, but YMMV.
>
> That's a sticky job you've got there... I don't know much about the
> Wilson Art flooring, but perhaps you could remove the trim and use a
> really cheap abrasive disc in a 4" angle grinder? That'd get you
> really close, and then you could knock out the rest with a sharp
> chisel (Use a cheap chisel, of course)
I do have an air powered angle grinder (it never has much "oomph", but
lots of RPM). I'll try it on some scrap laminate (and I could remove
the trim...DUH! (light bulb moment!)...I will HAVE to cut the trim
anyway, in order to install the wider cabinets.
(And here I was thinking I'd found the perfect excuse for a new
tool...but that's ok...I still need another Veritas plane [or 2])
Dave
Upscale wrote:
> We're talking about hand saws right? I've got a 10 tpi Pax panel saw
> purchased from LV. Cutting an 8" board shows visible imperfections. Mating
> two boards end to end no matter how carefully I cut does *not* produce
> something that would be considered usable for flooring. I'm not clumsy using
> a hand saw nor am I inexperienced. So, either there's something I don't know
> about cutting boards, I'm not handling the saw properly or I'm missing
> something here.
> The only saw apparatus that I've seen on the LV site that might produce cuts
> suitable for flooring is the mitre trimmer. It doesn't exactly say, but
> viewing it online suggests to me that it's capable of 90° cuts.
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32922&cat=1,42884
Easy there big guy. I wasn't saying that you were clumsy or
inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was
smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high
quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV. I don't think that saws
give perfect finishes, even the Japanese ones. If you take a look at
that shelf-O-planes I posted a while back you'll see a bunch of saws.
You'll also see a bunch of planes. I believe in planes. They give you
a smooth finish, so do the scapers you prolly can't see in the picture.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use: daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.patinatools.org
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:58:17 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Is there a jig-saw-like tool that cuts flush and has a carbide edged bit
>available?? I could limit it's cutting depth by covering the laminate
>with a block of wood and the stroke of a jigsaw should be a lot less
>than my Sawzall.
>
>Dave
fein multimaster.
[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:58:17 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Is there a jig-saw-like tool that cuts flush and has a carbide edged bit
>>available?? I could limit it's cutting depth by covering the laminate
>>with a block of wood and the stroke of a jigsaw should be a lot less
>>than my Sawzall.
>>
>>Dave
>
>
>
> fein multimaster.
thanks. I'll check it out. It might be worth what I'd expect would be
a hefty admission price, like my Fein shop vac.
Dave
David <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:58:17 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Is there a jig-saw-like tool that cuts flush and has a carbide edged
>>>bit available?? I could limit it's cutting depth by covering the
>>>laminate with a block of wood and the stroke of a jigsaw should be a
>>>lot less than my Sawzall.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> fein multimaster.
>
> thanks. I'll check it out. It might be worth what I'd expect would
> be a hefty admission price, like my Fein shop vac.
>
> Dave
>
Not too bad. The midrange kit is about $239, IIRC. Woodcraft has them, as
well as some of the better builder supply yards.
The carbide grout cutter tool is a life saver when, for example, a
woodworker tiles a shower, and gets a little exhuberent with the thinset.
Just to pick an entirely random for instance.
But it is one sweet tool.
Patriarch
On 9 Aug 2005 08:20:34 -0700, the opaque "ddt_toronto"
<[email protected]> clearly wrote:
>power saw on the market that is not noisy. I thought to put the power
>saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea which
>low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
Try a Japanese style saw. They're quieter than any power saw and
quieter than Western saws. They cut about 3 t imes quicker with
one third the effort of a Western saw, too. $26 gets a good one
for you from www.JapanWoodworker.com . 1-800-537-7820 Asl for the
hardwood razor saw. You saw the ad in Fine Woodworking for $25.95
post paid!
--
-------------------------------------------------------
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications
"ddt_toronto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea which
> low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
Only type of portable power saw that I can think of that would be suitable
is a chop saw and they're not known for their quietness. There's usually
other options of interest than noise.
Cutting laminates for floors needs usually needs an exact 90°. Only other
option I can think of is a handsaw for the initial cut and then some type of
professional cut off box that uses a shear to cut the last 1/4" of material
to size. There's a few high end sheer cutters of that type are used in
picture making, maybe there's some that cut at 90°.
On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:23:03 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>This is the one I used for many years as a general cut off saw. Mostly for
>metal but almost anything else you could think of too. Just because it was
>there in the shop.
>
>http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G1010
>
This one's a beauty, too.
http://www.ellissaw.com/BandSaws/10/1100-mitre-band-saw
They're tough as nails, and the head (rather than the vise) pivots for
miter cuts. I have no idea what they want for them, but if I had to
say what I'd expect to pay for one, I'd put it in the $500-600 range.
Much nicer than any other cut-off bandsaw I've seen- by quite a large
margin. Their sanders are nice, too.
[email protected] (in MOtKe.173577$9A2.125878@edtnps89) said:
| So, take that new miter saw with the laser sight. All they need to
| do is get rid of the motor and the blade and boost the laser power.
| How hard can that be? I just did all the design work right there.
|
| * Never needs sharpening!
| * Totally quiet... no moving parts!
| * No sawdust... just a little puff of smoke.
Hmm - more benefits:
* Self cauterizing... losing a limb doesn't mean you'll bleed to
death.
* Large capacity/range - 3500W model cuts "to infinity and beyond."
* Doubles as lawn mower/tree trimmer/pet groomer/grill starter.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
"ddt_toronto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi All,
> I'm a part time paint contractor and I'm thinking of including a
> laminate flooring in my services (I paint mostly condos). I have layed
> a couple of laminate floors myself but I used circular saw for cutting
> the laminate. Now, that would work if I work during regular hours, but
> condo corporations don't allow high noise after 5 p.m. and during the
> weekends, which is the time when I paint mostly. So, one option will be
> to do all the prep work in the evening (carpet removal, vaccuming,
> subfloor laying) and to hire someone to work on the laminate during the
> day. Or, to lay the laminate after hours using some low noise saw. I
> found some good looking Mastercraft mitre hand saw and it looks like
> that's the best option, but I still think that it must be some other
> power saw on the market that is not noisy. I thought to put the power
> saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea which
> low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
Most portable electric saws use universal motors. That is a big noise maker
by it self. Then add a blade it the sound magnifies.
Bosch makes a different type of miter saw that might be quieter. Take a
look here.
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175981&G=54928&I=55133
"L M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ddt_toronto wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> I'm a part time paint contractor and I'm thinking of including a
>> laminate flooring in my services (I paint mostly condos). I have layed
>> a couple of laminate floors myself but I used circular saw for cutting
>> the laminate. Now, that would work if I work during regular hours, but
>> condo corporations don't allow high noise after 5 p.m. and during the
>> weekends, which is the time when I paint mostly. So, one option will be
>> to do all the prep work in the evening (carpet removal, vaccuming,
>> subfloor laying) and to hire someone to work on the laminate during the
>> day. Or, to lay the laminate after hours using some low noise saw. I
>> found some good looking Mastercraft mitre hand saw and it looks like
>> that's the best option, but I still think that it must be some other
>> power saw on the market that is not noisy. I thought to put the power
>> saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea which
>> low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>
> Horizontal Bandsaw
>
> http://www.southern-tool.com/store/light_duty_horizontal_vertical_bandsaws.html
>
> http://www.southern-tool.com/store/metalworking_bandsaws.html
>
> A guy had a small one at a job site a few years ago. Don't
> remember the name but it was easily carried by one person.
>
> Normally used for metalwork.
>
> Quiet compared to any circular saw.
Grizzly has those too.
Low cost solution. I used one for metal work. But they came in handy for
cutting many other materials. Just buy the right kind of blades.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G8692&viewtype=images&num=2&
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G8692&
This is the one I used for many years as a general cut off saw. Mostly for
metal but almost anything else you could think of too. Just because it was
there in the shop.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G1010
ddt_toronto wrote:
> Thanks guys for all your replys. I'm thinking of testing this Bosch
> power hand saw (I didn't even know that something like this exists):
>
> http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175981&G=54928&I=55133
>
How will you rip the pieces to width along the wall?
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
(Remove -SPAM- to send email)
Sharpening the saw every other cut would be a might bit slow.
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:F05Le.4691> I joined this thread late... If the OP marked his cuts
fairly deep with a
> knife and then used a good sharp handsaw I don't see any reason for him to
> not get acceptable cuts for flooring. He'd probably do better than he
would
> with a mediocre CMS and mediocre blade... If he's doing this at night and
> noise is a concern it doesn't sound like he's looking for production
speed.
>
> John
>
>
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Dave in Fairfax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was
>> smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high
>> quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV.
>
> It's ok, I'm not upset. I'm just keeping in mind the OP's request for a
> quiet way to produce cuts (night time operation) that are suitable for
> laying laminate flooring. Aside from the shearing method, or the edge
> planing method (which I feel is much too slow for production speed
> professional work) I can't envision anything else that would meet his
> noise
> concerns. Even if a Dozuki saw and some specialized usage can produce the
> type of 90° cuts obtained by a properly set up chop saw, I refuse to
> believe
> that it can be done nearly fast enough to be worthwhile using for
> production
> work.
I joined this thread late... If the OP marked his cuts fairly deep with a
knife and then used a good sharp handsaw I don't see any reason for him to
not get acceptable cuts for flooring. He'd probably do better than he would
with a mediocre CMS and mediocre blade... If he's doing this at night and
noise is a concern it doesn't sound like he's looking for production speed.
John
[email protected] wrote:
> CW wrote:
>
>>Something that impresses me during this discussion is that everyone is
>>concentrating on hand saws and planes when laminate flooring is to be cut.
>>This stuff kills carbide rapidly, I don't see any carbon steel blade
>>standing up to it for any length of time.
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Upscale wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Dave in Fairfax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was
>>>>>smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high
>>>>>quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV.
>>>>
>>>I don't know if the pax saws are high quality or not. The Independence
>>>saws, now made by Lie Nielsen and the Adria saws both have a
>>>great reputation. Possibly these are as good as the best antiques
>>>you could find.
>>>...
>>>Of course
>>>there is time needed to hone the blade once every night or so
>>>that's a quick job with the plane, don't know about the shear.
>>>
>
>
> Of course we are, OP wanted a quiet saw. There are no quiet power
> saws.
>
> Honing the plane blade is a fast step.
>
> Resharpening a Western style crosscut backsaw takes about
> 2-3 minutes, the teeth do not need to be jointed or set each
> time it is sharpened.
>
> Replacement blades for the less expensive Japanese style saws
> are around $10, last I looked. A new blade should last
> for a few nights' work.
>
I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's
hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is
merely uninformed conjectures.
Dave
"Dave in Fairfax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was
> smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high
> quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV.
It's ok, I'm not upset. I'm just keeping in mind the OP's request for a
quiet way to produce cuts (night time operation) that are suitable for
laying laminate flooring. Aside from the shearing method, or the edge
planing method (which I feel is much too slow for production speed
professional work) I can't envision anything else that would meet his noise
concerns. Even if a Dozuki saw and some specialized usage can produce the
type of 90° cuts obtained by a properly set up chop saw, I refuse to believe
that it can be done nearly fast enough to be worthwhile using for production
work.
If there's something else out there that I don't know about, then hey, I'm
all for it. I like woodworking in the middle of the night as long as I'm
comfortable knowing that an angry neighbour isn't going to be pounding on my
door demanding why I'm making all that noise.
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Yeah, give a nice handsaw a try- you can't really get a good one at
> the local borg these days, but you can order them from any of the
> mail-order companies that cater to woodworkers. Using hand tools only
> seems hard until you get a good one, and then it's a real eye-opener.
Got a brand recommendation? Whatever I consider buying will have to be
available somewhere in the Canadian market.
Contractors have been getting ripped off for years now by a
conspiracy. The only thing that's generally available to us today are
devices that spin things like carbide-tipped saw blades with big motors.
But what do you think cuts the saw blade itself? That's right, a
laser! Have you seen the kerf on the anti-vibration cut-outs in the
Freud? Astoundingly clean, accurate, lightning fast, with a .5mm kerf.
So, take that new miter saw with the laser sight. All they need to do
is get rid of the motor and the blade and boost the laser power. How
hard can that be? I just did all the design work right there.
* Never needs sharpening!
* Totally quiet... no moving parts!
* No sawdust... just a little puff of smoke.
The laser could even match the color mark of the manufacturer
(e.g. yellow for dewalt, red for milwaukee, green for hitachi)
Well, you can see how this would kill lots of industries overnight, so
they'll never let us have them.
In rec.woodworking ddt_toronto <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi All,
> I'm a part time paint contractor and I'm thinking of including a
> laminate flooring in my services (I paint mostly condos). I have layed
> a couple of laminate floors myself but I used circular saw for cutting
> the laminate. Now, that would work if I work during regular hours, but
> condo corporations don't allow high noise after 5 p.m. and during the
> weekends, which is the time when I paint mostly. So, one option will be
> to do all the prep work in the evening (carpet removal, vaccuming,
> subfloor laying) and to hire someone to work on the laminate during the
> day. Or, to lay the laminate after hours using some low noise saw. I
> found some good looking Mastercraft mitre hand saw and it looks like
> that's the best option, but I still think that it must be some other
> power saw on the market that is not noisy. I thought to put the power
> saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea which
> low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Yeah, give a nice handsaw a try- you can't really get a good one at
>> the local borg these days, but you can order them from any of the
>> mail-order companies that cater to woodworkers. Using hand tools only
>> seems hard until you get a good one, and then it's a real eye-opener.
>
> Got a brand recommendation? Whatever I consider buying will have to be
> available somewhere in the Canadian market.
>
Lie-Nielson has a variety of back saws available now and will have panel
saws in the not too distant future... I've got a couple L-N back saws (rip
and cross-cut) and some Diston and Sandvik panel saws (again rip and various
cross-cut). The Diston and Sandvik saws didn't come into their own until
they had been sharpened. From the factory they cut OK but not nearly as good
as after a professional sharpening.
John
Ever cut any laminate flooring? The substance used in the topcoat, this is
the stuff that gives it its wear resistance, is aluminum oxide. Talk to
Norton about aluminum oxide. That's what they use to make oilstones from. I
wouldn't touch a piece of laminate flooring with any plane or saw I cared
about.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Honing the plane blade is a fast step.
>
> Resharpening a Western style crosscut backsaw takes about
> 2-3 minutes, the teeth do not need to be jointed or set each
> time it is sharpened.
>
> Replacement blades for the less expensive Japanese style saws
> are around $10, last I looked. A new blade should last
> for a few nights' work.
>
> --
>
> FF
>
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On 9 Aug 2005 08:20:34 -0700, the opaque "ddt_toronto"
> <[email protected]> clearly wrote:
>
>> power saw on the market that is not noisy. I thought to put the power
>> saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea
>> which low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
>
> Try a Japanese style saw. They're quieter than any power saw and
> quieter than Western saws. They cut about 3 t imes quicker with
> one third the effort of a Western saw, too. $26 gets a good one
> for you from www.JapanWoodworker.com . 1-800-537-7820 Asl for the
> hardwood razor saw. You saw the ad in Fine Woodworking for $25.95
> post paid!
Ditto on that. They are excellent - a bit more fragile than 'Western' saws
but a lovely fast smooth cut.
Apart from that I was going to suggest a scrollsaw - quiet, but not
necessarily fast or straight lines...
Something that impresses me during this discussion is that everyone is
concentrating on hand saws and planes when laminate flooring is to be cut.
This stuff kills carbide rapidly, I don't see any carbon steel blade
standing up to it for any length of time.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Upscale wrote:
> > "Dave in Fairfax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was
> > > smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high
> > > quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV.
> >
>
> I don't know if the pax saws are high quality or not. The Independence
> saws, now made by Lie Nielsen and the Adria saws both have a
> great reputation. Possibly these are as good as the best antiques
> you could find.
>
> >
> > It's ok, I'm not upset. I'm just keeping in mind the OP's request for a
> > quiet way to produce cuts (night time operation) that are suitable for
> > laying laminate flooring. Aside from the shearing method, or the edge
> > planing method (which I feel is much too slow for production speed
> > professional work) ...
>
> I don't see why shearing or edge planing would be too slow. It
> is one additonal step after cutting, but a quick one. Of course
> there is time needed to hone the blade once every night or so
> that's a quick job with the plane, don't know about the shear.
>
> --
>
> FF
>
"Dave in Fairfax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Upscale wrote:
> > Got a brand recommendation? Whatever I consider buying will have to be
> > available somewhere in the Canadian market.
>
> Maybe I'm missing something, look in your LV catalog.
We're talking about hand saws right? I've got a 10 tpi Pax panel saw
purchased from LV. Cutting an 8" board shows visible imperfections. Mating
two boards end to end no matter how carefully I cut does *not* produce
something that would be considered usable for flooring. I'm not clumsy using
a hand saw nor am I inexperienced. So, either there's something I don't know
about cutting boards, I'm not handling the saw properly or I'm missing
something here.
The only saw apparatus that I've seen on the LV site that might produce cuts
suitable for flooring is the mitre trimmer. It doesn't exactly say, but
viewing it online suggests to me that it's capable of 90° cuts.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32922&cat=1,42884
Silicon carbide stones do a great job on axes and shovels. Don't really do
much woodworking, do you?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> CW wrote:
> BTW, my oilstones are made from silicon carbide--harder than
> alundum.
ddt_toronto wrote:
> Hi All,
> I'm a part time paint contractor and I'm thinking of including a
> laminate flooring in my services (I paint mostly condos). I have layed
> a couple of laminate floors myself but I used circular saw for cutting
> the laminate. Now, that would work if I work during regular hours, but
> condo corporations don't allow high noise after 5 p.m. and during the
> weekends, which is the time when I paint mostly. So, one option will be
> to do all the prep work in the evening (carpet removal, vaccuming,
> subfloor laying) and to hire someone to work on the laminate during the
> day. Or, to lay the laminate after hours using some low noise saw. I
> found some good looking Mastercraft mitre hand saw and it looks like
> that's the best option, but I still think that it must be some other
> power saw on the market that is not noisy. I thought to put the power
> saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea which
> low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
Horizontal Bandsaw
http://www.southern-tool.com/store/light_duty_horizontal_vertical_bandsaws.html
http://www.southern-tool.com/store/metalworking_bandsaws.html
A guy had a small one at a job site a few years ago. Don't
remember the name but it was easily carried by one person.
Normally used for metalwork.
Quiet compared to any circular saw.
If low noise is critical, I'd go with the manual miter box. I've got a
Craftsman that has done a wonderful job. It has a wooden base that I
modified slightly and will clamp tightly in a Workmate bench. It has a
"captive" blade so that once set, even a monkey could make precise cuts.
Something like:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?
BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00936343000&subcat=Miter+Boxes
(sorry about long url, it's a Craftsman Full Range Compounding Miter Box,
Sears item #00936343000 Mfr. model #36343 )
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> A query about all these suggestions of hand saws. The OP was talking
> about doing flooring with a quiet saw. Can hand saws, even Dozuki hand
> saws cut a floor board so straight at 90° and so finely finished that
> it's going to mate perfectly with an adjacent board? I've got to be
> honest here, I'm really sceptical.
>
Dozuki's and other "free" hand saws take some getting used to for proper
technique. The Craftsman saw I mentioned has a "captive" blade; there are
four vertical posts, and a guide on the saw fits over the blades and onto
the posts. Mine came with lots of hold-down and stop-block clamps. When I
first got mine, I made a jig that would allow me to do resawing. *THAT*
will make you break out in a sweat!
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> The only saw apparatus that I've seen on the LV site that might
> produce cuts suitable for flooring is the mitre trimmer. It doesn't
> exactly say, but viewing it online suggests to me that it's capable of
> 90° cuts.
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32922&cat=1,42884
>
>
Check out the miter boxes:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32927&cat=1,42884 (standard)
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32926&cat=1,42884
(professional)
BOTH of these should be able to produce square, smooth ends similar to a
quality (power) chop saw. They have up to 32 tpi blades available. The
work can be clamped on the "bed" of the saw. The saw is "captive" in the
guides. Assuming that the saw is accurate and not defective (same
assumption for any equipment), there is no reason these would not make
quick, quits, accurate cuts. They *are* manual saws, and if you do much
cutting, you will get tired and sweaty. You'll make more noise huffing and
puffing than the saw will make.
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:03:24 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Yep, did a lot of work that way when I was starting out. A Japanese
>> pull saw (Dozuki) with a nice thin kerf makes it easy, if not quite as
>> fast as a power saw.
>
>A query about all these suggestions of hand saws. The OP was talking about
>doing flooring with a quiet saw. Can hand saws, even Dozuki hand saws cut a
>floor board so straight at 90° and so finely finished that it's going to
>mate perfectly with an adjacent board? I've got to be honest here, I'm
>really sceptical.
Sure it can. A saw is only as good as the guy using it, true- but a
good handsaw can cut just as straight as any power tool, and better
than some. Couple of things make it easier to get a good cut, in
fact- first, it's a lot easier to follow a line, because the saw cuts
at your pace, not at the pace of the motor, and you can adjust your
stance *before* the entire piece is cut. Second, a dozuki has a ton
of tiny little teeth that leave an edge like a good diablo blade.
You've got to remember that people have been doing woodworking for
thousands of years, and they didn't all have DeWalt and Delta. Some
of that stuff they built was even sort of ok. :)
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> fact- first, it's a lot easier to follow a line, because the saw cuts
>> at your pace, not at the pace of the motor, and you can adjust your
>> stance *before* the entire piece is cut. Second, a dozuki has a ton
>> of tiny little teeth that leave an edge like a good diablo blade.
>>
>> You've got to remember that people have been doing woodworking for
>> thousands of years, and they didn't all have DeWalt and Delta. Some
>> of that stuff they built was even sort of ok. :)
>
> I'll take your word for it, but I'll hat to see it to believe it. Yup,
> they've been building wooden floors for hundreds of years, but repeatable
> 90° cuts with a handsaw, (I don't care what type) without further edge
> treatment? Sorry, but it's just one of those things I'll have to see done
> to
> accept. Shearing an edge afterwards, plaining it and a few other ways I
> can
> think of, without them, I can't envision it. Maybe my woodworking
> experience
> has been too sheltered.
At the Northeastern Woodworker's Association's Showcase this year I did
demonstrations on using shooting boards. I kept cutting pieces off the end
of the same board and then trued them up with the plane. What was kind of
amusing was that after a while I had to intentionally make bad saw cuts. I
started getting perfect miter cuts with the hand saw while supporting the
work with the shooting board. Mind you I was using an L-N crosscut backsaw
but still, it was a handsaw. I've been using my crosscut panel saw quite a
bit lately and making square and plumb cuts isn't that difficult. It's a
matter of paying attention and developing skill...
John
[email protected] wrote:
> Contractors have been getting ripped off for years now by a
> conspiracy. The only thing that's generally available to us today are
> devices that spin things like carbide-tipped saw blades with big
> motors.
>
> But what do you think cuts the saw blade itself? That's right, a
> laser! Have you seen the kerf on the anti-vibration cut-outs in the
> Freud? Astoundingly clean, accurate, lightning fast, with a .5mm
> kerf.
>
> So, take that new miter saw with the laser sight. All they need to do
> is get rid of the motor and the blade and boost the laser power. How
> hard can that be? I just did all the design work right there.
>
> * Never needs sharpening!
> * Totally quiet... no moving parts!
> * No sawdust... just a little puff of smoke.
>
> The laser could even match the color mark of the manufacturer
> (e.g. yellow for dewalt, red for milwaukee, green for hitachi)
>
> Well, you can see how this would kill lots of industries overnight, so
> they'll never let us have them.
I'll bite.
Cutting wood by essentially burning it away is a bit different to cutting
metal... I guess for studwork a bit of scorching wouldn't matter so much,
but for fine furniture? No thanks.
Also, the systems I've looked at in a quick google (up to 450W CO2 Lasers)
can only cut a max of 1" thickness. And a 450W laser is a hefty bit of kit
with a hefty price tag. Although I see EBay has a 3500W laser setup on
Buy-it-now for only $249,995.
Not to mention that saw cutting is only dangerous to people within reach of
the blade plus a bit for kickback. A high powered cutting laser would be a
danger to anyone in a pretty wide range, even if it was initially contained
inside the workshop. Want your dozy neghbour to have one?
A decent belt-drive contractor's saw with a capacitor-start motor has very
low motor noise. It's those little ones with the universal motors that
generate all the noise. The actual cutting noise contribution will be the
same. A slow going cross-cut with a quality, fine-toothed carbide blade
shouldn't be too loud.
I've used one of those battery drive circular saws and while they are
quieter that their AC counterparts, they are still louder than a
capacitor-start motor on a belt-drive stationary saw.
Tim Ellestad
"Woodchuck34" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How about one of those battery powered circular saws and a good cross
> cut jig of some sort. You'll still have the sound of the teeth hitting
> the wood, but the motor noise should be much lower than a tablesaw.
>
> Chuck
>
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Yep, did a lot of work that way when I was starting out. A Japanese
> pull saw (Dozuki) with a nice thin kerf makes it easy, if not quite as
> fast as a power saw.
A query about all these suggestions of hand saws. The OP was talking about
doing flooring with a quiet saw. Can hand saws, even Dozuki hand saws cut a
floor board so straight at 90° and so finely finished that it's going to
mate perfectly with an adjacent board? I've got to be honest here, I'm
really sceptical.
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:04:30 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Dave in Fairfax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was
>> smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high
>> quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV.
>
>It's ok, I'm not upset. I'm just keeping in mind the OP's request for a
>quiet way to produce cuts (night time operation) that are suitable for
>laying laminate flooring. Aside from the shearing method, or the edge
>planing method (which I feel is much too slow for production speed
>professional work) I can't envision anything else that would meet his noise
>concerns. Even if a Dozuki saw and some specialized usage can produce the
>type of 90° cuts obtained by a properly set up chop saw, I refuse to believe
>that it can be done nearly fast enough to be worthwhile using for production
>work.
Depends on what kind of production you're doing. As stated in my
original post in this thread, I've done a whole pile of trim work with
a dozuki and a coping saw, and it was all up to snuff. Which is to
say, much nicer than 98% of the crap you see around you every day.
There really, really is an arguement for hand tools being at least as,
if not more, accurate than power tools in the hands of the right
person. If you're lopping off crappy laminate to beat the next guy's
lowest bid, then it's probably not worthwhile. If you're trying to
make/maintain a reputation for quality over speed, then a handsaw will
work beautifully. Especially when the job requires a special
requirement, like the lowest amount of noise or dust possible,
customers will often be willing to pay for real craftsmanship when it
is availible. Also, a good dozuki will cut most trim (though I can't
claim this for flooring, I imagine it it very similar) in 3-4 strokes-
similar in time to lining up the cut on the power miter saw.
Further evidence of the race to the bottom, I guess. Get yourself a
nice handsaw, Upscale, and give it a whirl- you may be surprised to
find that they actually do work. And, though it may seem unlikely,
they're sometimes faster than the power versions, as they don't
require special setups or jigs for some cuts.
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:38:36 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Yeah, give a nice handsaw a try- you can't really get a good one at
>> the local borg these days, but you can order them from any of the
>> mail-order companies that cater to woodworkers. Using hand tools only
>> seems hard until you get a good one, and then it's a real eye-opener.
>
>Got a brand recommendation? Whatever I consider buying will have to be
>available somewhere in the Canadian market.
Take a look at Lee Valley. (http://www.leevalley.com/) and the Japan
Woodworker (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/page.asp?content_id=2896)
I hesitate to make a recommendation, as everyone has a slightly
different preference, but each of these companies has good solid
products that work well. For what you're up to, I'd use something
like this
(http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=01.117.02&dept_id=13085)
Because I like cutting on the pull stroke, and the spine on the back
of the saw will keep it ridgid when making straight cuts in a miter
box. If you prefer the western-style saws, it's just a matter of
finding one that works for you. I favor a gent's saw with a crosscut
set over a dovetail saw (for instance) because of the handle style,
but as stated above, that's going to depend on you.
A cheap pull saw from a local borg will work as well, but will not
last nearly as long, and I've never seen one with a still brace on the
back of the blade.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sharpening the saw every other cut would be a might bit slow.
>
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:F05Le.4691> I joined this thread late... If the OP marked his cuts
> fairly deep with a
>> knife and then used a good sharp handsaw I don't see any reason for him
>> to
>> not get acceptable cuts for flooring. He'd probably do better than he
> would
>> with a mediocre CMS and mediocre blade... If he's doing this at night and
>> noise is a concern it doesn't sound like he's looking for production
> speed.
>>
>> John
If you feel the finish is a concern than marking with the knife and then
cutting a V-groove along the line (on the waste side) with the knife would
eliminate the finish. The saw will track in the groove if some kind of saw
guide is used (e.g., bench hook, 90 degree setting in a miter box, etc)...
John
"Dan Major" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> The only saw apparatus that I've seen on the LV site that might
>> produce cuts suitable for flooring is the mitre trimmer. It doesn't
>> exactly say, but viewing it online suggests to me that it's capable of
>> 90° cuts.
>> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32922&cat=1,42884
>>
>>
> Check out the miter boxes:
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32927&cat=1,42884 (standard)
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32926&cat=1,42884
> (professional)
>
> BOTH of these should be able to produce square, smooth ends similar to a
> quality (power) chop saw. They have up to 32 tpi blades available. The
> work can be clamped on the "bed" of the saw. The saw is "captive" in the
> guides. Assuming that the saw is accurate and not defective (same
> assumption for any equipment), there is no reason these would not make
> quick, quits, accurate cuts. They *are* manual saws, and if you do much
> cutting, you will get tired and sweaty. You'll make more noise huffing
> and
> puffing than the saw will make.
>
Way back when I was in eighth grade shop, we cut everyting on a miter box
like the ones shown above. And we did nice precise cuts too. Everything was
square. Our shop teacher was very particular about that. If the project
wasn't square or had bad joints, out grades would suffer.
As for ripping, we had handsaws for that. We would cut close to a line.
thenplane the board to the line. We did pretty good as a group of
beginners.
"ddt_toronto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Thanks guys for all your replys. I'm thinking of testing this Bosch
> power hand saw (I didn't even know that something like this exists):
>
> http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175981&G=54928&I=55133
Didn't you say you wanted to do flooring? It mentioned a maximum mitre of 3
5/8". That's about 4" at 90°. There's flooring that's wider than that. Not
saying it won't do what you'd need, but I'd examine one very closely.
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> fact- first, it's a lot easier to follow a line, because the saw cuts
> at your pace, not at the pace of the motor, and you can adjust your
> stance *before* the entire piece is cut. Second, a dozuki has a ton
> of tiny little teeth that leave an edge like a good diablo blade.
>
> You've got to remember that people have been doing woodworking for
> thousands of years, and they didn't all have DeWalt and Delta. Some
> of that stuff they built was even sort of ok. :)
I'll take your word for it, but I'll hat to see it to believe it. Yup,
they've been building wooden floors for hundreds of years, but repeatable
90° cuts with a handsaw, (I don't care what type) without further edge
treatment? Sorry, but it's just one of those things I'll have to see done to
accept. Shearing an edge afterwards, plaining it and a few other ways I can
think of, without them, I can't envision it. Maybe my woodworking experience
has been too sheltered.
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:44:33 -0400, the opaque "Upscale"
<[email protected]> clearly wrote:
>"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> fact- first, it's a lot easier to follow a line, because the saw cuts
>> at your pace, not at the pace of the motor, and you can adjust your
>> stance *before* the entire piece is cut. Second, a dozuki has a ton
>> of tiny little teeth that leave an edge like a good diablo blade.
>>
>> You've got to remember that people have been doing woodworking for
>> thousands of years, and they didn't all have DeWalt and Delta. Some
>> of that stuff they built was even sort of ok. :)
>
>I'll take your word for it, but I'll hat to see it to believe it. Yup,
>they've been building wooden floors for hundreds of years, but repeatable
>90° cuts with a handsaw, (I don't care what type) without further edge
>treatment? Sorry, but it's just one of those things I'll have to see done to
>accept. Shearing an edge afterwards, plaining it and a few other ways I can
>think of, without them, I can't envision it. Maybe my woodworking experience
>has been too sheltered.
I thought the same thing until I got and used a Japanese pull saw.
Floored me, it did!
--
-------------------------------------------------------
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:23:05 GMT, Dan Major <[email protected]>
wrote:
>If low noise is critical, I'd go with the manual miter box. I've got a
>Craftsman that has done a wonderful job. It has a wooden base that I
>modified slightly and will clamp tightly in a Workmate bench. It has a
>"captive" blade so that once set, even a monkey could make precise cuts.
>Something like:
>http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?
>BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00936343000&subcat=Miter+Boxes
>
>(sorry about long url, it's a Craftsman Full Range Compounding Miter Box,
>Sears item #00936343000 Mfr. model #36343 )
Yep, did a lot of work that way when I was starting out. A Japanese
pull saw (Dozuki) with a nice thin kerf makes it easy, if not quite as
fast as a power saw.
CW wrote:
> Silicon carbide stones do a great job on axes and shovels. Don't really do
> much woodworking, do you?
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > CW wrote:
> > BTW, my oilstones are made from silicon carbide--harder than
> > alundum.
Not sure what your point is about axes and shovels.
I mostly use waterstones for planes and chisels. The coarse
or fine carborundum stones are good for grinding or repairing
the bezel, much as one would use a file on a nicked axe.
Never sharpened a shovel, have you and why?
I don't do as much woodworking as I'd like to.
--
FF
[email protected] wrote:
....
> Never sharpened a shovel, have you and why?
Of course, and for the same reason one sharpens any cutting-edge tool...
[email protected] wrote:
> CW wrote:
>
>>Silicon carbide stones do a great job on axes and shovels. Don't really do
>>much woodworking, do you?
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>CW wrote:
>>>BTW, my oilstones are made from silicon carbide--harder than
>>>alundum.
>
>
> Not sure what your point is about axes and shovels.
>
> I mostly use waterstones for planes and chisels. The coarse
> or fine carborundum stones are good for grinding or repairing
> the bezel, much as one would use a file on a nicked axe.
>
> Never sharpened a shovel, have you and why?
>
> I don't do as much woodworking as I'd like to.
>
I've got hard packed clay soil and YES, I've sharpened the end of my
shovels. The neighbors get pissed off when I set of dynamite to make a
hole for my roses.
Dave
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> amusing was that after a while I had to intentionally make bad saw cuts. I
> started getting perfect miter cuts with the hand saw while supporting the
> work with the shooting board. Mind you I was using an L-N crosscut backsaw
> but still, it was a handsaw.
I guess I've got something to learn then. Much of my woodworking is done in
an apartment where noise is of a concern and my biggest difficulty by far is
getting straight, parallel cuts to my satisfaction.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> Of course we are, OP wanted a quiet saw. There are no quiet power
> saws.
>
> Honing the plane blade is a fast step.
>
> Resharpening a Western style crosscut backsaw takes about
> 2-3 minutes, the teeth do not need to be jointed or set each
> time it is sharpened.
>
> Replacement blades for the less expensive Japanese style saws
> are around $10, last I looked. A new blade should last
> for a few nights' work.
Kidding right? You've never cut laminate flooring have you? Using a steel
blade, I used two just to do a few stair treads.
It's going to be kind of difficult to cut an 8' long laminate board in half
with most scroll saws I've seen. :) Otherwise I would have suggested a
small bandsaw. I used to get away with running my bandsaw in my basement
shop when the kids were asleep; it was about the only (powered) saw I could
get away with that. Even now, it's the only one of my saws I don't usually
wear ear protection for. Well, the mitre saw I don't, but it's usually only
a quick cut or two.
Clint
"PC Paul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On 9 Aug 2005 08:20:34 -0700, the opaque "ddt_toronto"
>> <[email protected]> clearly wrote:
>>
>>> power saw on the market that is not noisy. I thought to put the power
>>> saw in the bathroom, but noise is too strong even then. Any idea
>>> which low noise saw can be used for laminate besides hand saw?
>>
>> Try a Japanese style saw. They're quieter than any power saw and
>> quieter than Western saws. They cut about 3 t imes quicker with
>> one third the effort of a Western saw, too. $26 gets a good one
>> for you from www.JapanWoodworker.com . 1-800-537-7820 Asl for the
>> hardwood razor saw. You saw the ad in Fine Woodworking for $25.95
>> post paid!
>
> Ditto on that. They are excellent - a bit more fragile than 'Western' saws
> but a lovely fast smooth cut.
>
> Apart from that I was going to suggest a scrollsaw - quiet, but not
> necessarily fast or straight lines...
>
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sharpening the saw every other cut would be a might bit slow.
>
Unless it is wide board, then it would be after every cut.