Digger,
Welcome to the soapbox. I have been on it for years but to no avail.
Some years ago American industry turned itself over to accountants.
Accountants see only one thing, the bottom line. Hence we see products
outsourced to third world countries who have no labor laws, no minimum wage,
no pollution control laws and governmental oversite to insure quality and
suitability for purpose.
Chiese products particularly irritate me. China is not friend of the USA.
It hasn't been since the communists exiled Chang Chi Chek to Formosa. I
cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
> Maybe the best answer to offer since I don't have the stats on popular
> degree programs is that people brought here on a sponsored visa are
> prone to work on the low end of a broad scale plus I imagine would
> enhance sales in those countries involved. His stated reason was that
> MS needed a more broad influx of ideas and thoughts.
>
The people coming in on sponsered visas are certainly at the bottom of
the US payscale. I do not have stats to back this up either but I
know enough of them who are sponsered by consulting firms and every
one that I showed the payscale for programmers to (which you can get
at Monster.com) all said they were being paid between the low and the
mean and, usually, closer to the low end. Not very scientific, I
know, but it confirmed my suspicions.
I asked several of them how they have been able to live on some of
those salaries and they all said that it is easy. They live here but
still live like they are in their homeland. They are vegetarians in
the strictest sense and they have upwards of eight to ten to more
living in a four-bedroom apartment to spread out housing costs and
they all share one car between them with one or two being the drivers
all the time while the others are only ever passengers. Thus, they
are saving tons on the three of the most expensive things: housing,
food, and transportation.
Worst of all, in my opinion, is that they feel they are less crowded
and have much more flexibility than ever over here. I don't know
about the rest of you but I am not prepared to move my mother and my
two susters and their families into my house to live with my family,
eat beans and rice (and not even cheese or eggs!), and be a taxi
driver for everybody.
I think the saddest thing is that these people are being used and
abused in the worst way but they are oblivious to it. They are being
held captive by their sponsering company because they cannot find a
job someplace else or risk being deported and they are being paid
peanuts. This is also helping drive down salaries in the "high tech"
jobs that were supposed to be our future since manufacturing went
overseas. And it is also hurting the people wanting to come into the
US because they are being paid less and less, thus it is better to
stay in their home country and be allowed to move around and get
raises with each move.
I don't know when this merry-go-round will stop but it doesn't bode
well for ANY workers in ANY country.
Casey wrote:
> Digger,
> Welcome to the soapbox. I have been on it for years but to no avail.
> Some years ago American industry turned itself over to accountants.
> Accountants see only one thing, the bottom line. Hence we see
> products outsourced to third world countries who have no labor laws,
> no minimum wage, no pollution control laws and governmental oversite to
> insure quality and suitability for purpose.
I'm with you on the accountants (and lawyers) running businesses. But the
labor-cost difference in Bangladesh is NOT between twenty-five cents a day
an $7.50 an hour. The difference is between twenty-five cents an hour and
nothing.
>
> Chiese products particularly irritate me. China is not friend of the
> USA. It hasn't been since the communists exiled Chang Chi Chek to
> Formosa. I cannot understand how American Companies can, with the
> blessings and encouragement of the Federal government, engage in
> commerce with China.
Because trade with China creates wealth.
We have a trade deficit with China, ture. China has a trade deficit with
India. India has a trade deficit with the U.S.
It averages out.
Dave Gordon wrote:
>>
> From the UK so excuse my ignorance (and contradicting a jolly good
> rant), but isn't there a law in the US that immigrant labour has to
> be paid the same as an American doing the same job. Bill Gates isn't
> trying to import cheap labour, he's either trying to export cheap
> jobs (aka offshoring), or else he is trying to solve a hiring problem
> where he can't get engineers with degrees. If the US is like the UK,
> there has been a marked decline in software wages and numbers of jobs
> due to offshoring, with the consequence that no-one with any brains
> is doing engineering or science at University because there are no
> jobs and the wages are crap anyway.
You are correct in all particulars. But here's a little factoid of which you
may not be aware.
Microsoft is opening a programming center in Vancouver, B.C. and hopes the
Canadian government will be more flexible regarding immigrant employees.
On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:42:54 +0100, Dave Gordon wrote:
> ...
> In the UK, the number of students entering engineering and science
> degrees has declined by 25% or so in the last 3 years, but has been
> declining by a lesser amount for 20 years - a combination of low wages
> and low esteem for engineers and scientists. No wonder we have so much
> pseudo-science these days like the myth of man-made global warming (dont
> get me started!).
Well,there's always the "move to India" option. I know a few people that
did. Apparently they hate the weather, like the food, hate the social
life, like ... etc. And, given what their pay buys in India, they are
very, very well off.
Duster
"Digger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 19:33:41 -0500, "Casey" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Digger,
>>Welcome to the soapbox. I have been on it for years but to no avail.
>>Some years ago American industry turned itself over to accountants.
>>Accountants see only one thing, the bottom line. Hence we see products
>>outsourced to third world countries who have no labor laws, no minimum wage,
>>no pollution control laws and governmental oversite to insure quality and
>>suitability for purpose.
>>
>>Chiese products particularly irritate me. China is not friend of the USA.
>>It hasn't been since the communists exiled Chang Chi Chek to Formosa. I
>>cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
>>encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
>
> This country has been sold out and the gov't has turned a blind eye.
> The trade deficit is so skewed there is no comparison and yet it goes
> on. Microsoft is raising hell to admit more from India etc just to
> hold down wages. And who do these companies think will buy their
> products when they reduce spendable income in this country.
>
> Plus the in influx of labor from the north and south running
> unchecked. And congress only worries about elections. What a deal!
> We deserve what we elect!
>
From the UK so excuse my ignorance (and contradicting a jolly good rant), but isn't there a law in the
US that immigrant labour has to be paid the same as an American doing the same job. Bill Gates isn't
trying to import cheap labour, he's either trying to export cheap jobs (aka offshoring), or else he is
trying to solve a hiring problem where he can't get engineers with degrees. If the US is like the UK,
there has been a marked decline in software wages and numbers of jobs due to offshoring, with the
consequence that no-one with any brains is doing engineering or science at University because there
are no jobs and the wages are crap anyway.
"Maxwell Lol" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Casey" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>I
>> cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
>> encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
>
> It's simple, They worship the same god: $$$$$$$$$
They want the Chinese to be economically dependant on the US, so a war would be economic suicide for
them. Of course the big flaw is, once they get their hands on the technology, they reverse engineer it
and copy it. Then they sell it back cheaper.
"Digger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:17:15 +0100, "Dave Gordon" <d@p> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Digger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 19:33:41 -0500, "Casey" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Digger,
>>>>Welcome to the soapbox. I have been on it for years but to no avail.
>>>>Some years ago American industry turned itself over to accountants.
>>>>Accountants see only one thing, the bottom line. Hence we see products
>>>>outsourced to third world countries who have no labor laws, no minimum wage,
>>>>no pollution control laws and governmental oversite to insure quality and
>>>>suitability for purpose.
>>>>
>>>>Chiese products particularly irritate me. China is not friend of the USA.
>>>>It hasn't been since the communists exiled Chang Chi Chek to Formosa. I
>>>>cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
>>>>encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
>>>
>>> This country has been sold out and the gov't has turned a blind eye.
>>> The trade deficit is so skewed there is no comparison and yet it goes
>>> on. Microsoft is raising hell to admit more from India etc just to
>>> hold down wages. And who do these companies think will buy their
>>> products when they reduce spendable income in this country.
>>>
>>> Plus the in influx of labor from the north and south running
>>> unchecked. And congress only worries about elections. What a deal!
>>> We deserve what we elect!
>>>
>>From the UK so excuse my ignorance (and contradicting a jolly good rant), but isn't there a law in
>>the
>>US that immigrant labour has to be paid the same as an American doing the same job. Bill Gates isn't
>>trying to import cheap labour, he's either trying to export cheap jobs (aka offshoring), or else he
>>is
>>trying to solve a hiring problem where he can't get engineers with degrees. If the US is like the
>>UK,
>>there has been a marked decline in software wages and numbers of jobs due to offshoring, with the
>>consequence that no-one with any brains is doing engineering or science at University because there
>>are no jobs and the wages are crap anyway.
>
> Maybe the best answer to offer since I don't have the stats on popular
> degree programs is that people brought here on a sponsored visa are
> prone to work on the low end of a broad scale plus I imagine would
> enhance sales in those countries involved. His stated reason was that
> MS needed a more broad influx of ideas and thoughts.
>
> Does it bother you that the UK isn't producing engineers or
> scientists?
To misquote Scott Adams, I find myself in the position of an undertaker on hearing of a coach crash
nearby. No young engineers means more jobs for old engineers like me, or higher wages due to
supply-and-demand, but the beancounters take a different view, and go offshore (actually
off-continent, since India is the largest beneficiary) to get their engineering work done. Lay-offs,
lower wages, bright students discouraged, lower numbers, offshoring, repeat.
In the UK, the number of students entering engineering and science degrees has declined by 25% or so
in the last 3 years, but has been declining by a lesser amount for 20 years - a combination of low
wages and low esteem for engineers and scientists. No wonder we have so much pseudo-science these days
like the myth of man-made global warming (dont get me started!).
"Digger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:19:08 +0100, "Dave Gordon" <d@p> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Maxwell Lol" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>> "Casey" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>>I
>>>> cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
>>>> encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
>>>
>>> It's simple, They worship the same god: $$$$$$$$$
>>
>>They want the Chinese to be economically dependant on the US, so a war would be economic suicide for
>>them. Of course the big flaw is, once they get their hands on the technology, they reverse engineer
>>it
>>and copy it. Then they sell it back cheaper.
>
> That's a BIG flaw when you reach the point that a brief hold back of
> goods can send a country to the can. You would have thought we could
> have learned something for letting ourselves become oil dependent! We
> cut back native production and destroyed most of the independent
> producers in this country and now just a short term holdout would be
> devistating.
>>
>
Amen brother.
"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:42:54 +0100, Dave Gordon wrote:
>
>> ...
>
>> In the UK, the number of students entering engineering and science
>> degrees has declined by 25% or so in the last 3 years, but has been
>> declining by a lesser amount for 20 years - a combination of low wages
>> and low esteem for engineers and scientists. No wonder we have so much
>> pseudo-science these days like the myth of man-made global warming (dont
>> get me started!).
>
> Well,there's always the "move to India" option. I know a few people that
> did. Apparently they hate the weather, like the food, hate the social
> life, like ... etc. And, given what their pay buys in India, they are
> very, very well off.
>
> Duster
I'd rather move to the US. You guys must realise how inexpensive your country is compared to Europe
(or maybe you do).
For example, my 1800 sq ft house, big by UK standards and 50 miles from London, is worth around
$950,000. A crappy steak and, uh, fries meal is $40, a small family car is $30,000 and petrol is $10 a
gallon. All thanks to our new, prudent, Prime Minister who spent 10 years in charge of the money under
the B'Liar.
On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 19:33:41 -0500, "Casey" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Digger,
>Welcome to the soapbox. I have been on it for years but to no avail.
>Some years ago American industry turned itself over to accountants.
>Accountants see only one thing, the bottom line. Hence we see products
>outsourced to third world countries who have no labor laws, no minimum wage,
>no pollution control laws and governmental oversite to insure quality and
>suitability for purpose.
>
>Chiese products particularly irritate me. China is not friend of the USA.
>It hasn't been since the communists exiled Chang Chi Chek to Formosa. I
>cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
>encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
This country has been sold out and the gov't has turned a blind eye.
The trade deficit is so skewed there is no comparison and yet it goes
on. Microsoft is raising hell to admit more from India etc just to
hold down wages. And who do these companies think will buy their
products when they reduce spendable income in this country.
Plus the in influx of labor from the north and south running
unchecked. And congress only worries about elections. What a deal!
We deserve what we elect!
>
"Casey" <[email protected]> writes:
>I
> cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
> encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
It's simple, They worship the same god: $$$$$$$$$
"Dave Gordon" <d@p> writes:
> From the UK so excuse my ignorance (and contradicting a jolly good
> rant), but isn't there a law in the US that immigrant labour has to
> be paid the same as an American doing the same job. Bill Gates isn't
> trying to import cheap labour,
WRONG!
> he's either trying to export cheap
> jobs (aka offshoring), or else he is trying to solve a hiring
> problem where he can't get engineers with degrees.
To be exact, he says that he can't find enough US workers at the
"starting rate of $100,000."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/17/AR2006031701798.html
Unfortunately for Bill, H1-B visa salaries are public information. It
turns out that only 12.7% of the H1B hires by Microsoft get that
starting salary or more. The rest he pays less.
http://www.programmersguild.org/docs/bill_gates_lies_about_h1b_wages.html
"Dave Gordon" <d@p> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:42:54 +0100, Dave Gordon wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>
>>> In the UK, the number of students entering engineering and science
>>> degrees has declined by 25% or so in the last 3 years, but has been
>>> declining by a lesser amount for 20 years - a combination of low wages
>>> and low esteem for engineers and scientists. No wonder we have so much
>>> pseudo-science these days like the myth of man-made global warming (dont
>>> get me started!).
>>
>> Well,there's always the "move to India" option. I know a few people that
>> did. Apparently they hate the weather, like the food, hate the social
>> life, like ... etc. And, given what their pay buys in India, they are
>> very, very well off.
>>
>> Duster
>
> I'd rather move to the US. You guys must realise how inexpensive your
> country is compared to Europe (or maybe you do).
> For example, my 1800 sq ft house, big by UK standards and 50 miles from
> London, is worth around $950,000. A crappy steak and, uh, fries meal is
> $40, a small family car is $30,000 and petrol is $10 a gallon. All thanks
> to our new, prudent, Prime Minister who spent 10 years in charge of the
> money under the B'Liar.
It's interesting how little we know about each other. I used to have
business dealings with people from
the UK, and they refused to believe me when I told them that there were
counties in the US where
a third of the houses don't have electricity. After I sent them a lot of
articles, they finally believed me,
but they said no one else in the UK would, because everyone there believes
the streets in the US
are paved with gold. Obviously, the streets in the UK must be paved with
gold, or else you
wouldn't be able to afford those prices!
;^)
On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:17:15 +0100, "Dave Gordon" <d@p> wrote:
>
>"Digger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 19:33:41 -0500, "Casey" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Digger,
>>>Welcome to the soapbox. I have been on it for years but to no avail.
>>>Some years ago American industry turned itself over to accountants.
>>>Accountants see only one thing, the bottom line. Hence we see products
>>>outsourced to third world countries who have no labor laws, no minimum wage,
>>>no pollution control laws and governmental oversite to insure quality and
>>>suitability for purpose.
>>>
>>>Chiese products particularly irritate me. China is not friend of the USA.
>>>It hasn't been since the communists exiled Chang Chi Chek to Formosa. I
>>>cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
>>>encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
>>
>> This country has been sold out and the gov't has turned a blind eye.
>> The trade deficit is so skewed there is no comparison and yet it goes
>> on. Microsoft is raising hell to admit more from India etc just to
>> hold down wages. And who do these companies think will buy their
>> products when they reduce spendable income in this country.
>>
>> Plus the in influx of labor from the north and south running
>> unchecked. And congress only worries about elections. What a deal!
>> We deserve what we elect!
>>
>From the UK so excuse my ignorance (and contradicting a jolly good rant), but isn't there a law in the
>US that immigrant labour has to be paid the same as an American doing the same job. Bill Gates isn't
>trying to import cheap labour, he's either trying to export cheap jobs (aka offshoring), or else he is
>trying to solve a hiring problem where he can't get engineers with degrees. If the US is like the UK,
>there has been a marked decline in software wages and numbers of jobs due to offshoring, with the
>consequence that no-one with any brains is doing engineering or science at University because there
>are no jobs and the wages are crap anyway.
Maybe the best answer to offer since I don't have the stats on popular
degree programs is that people brought here on a sponsored visa are
prone to work on the low end of a broad scale plus I imagine would
enhance sales in those countries involved. His stated reason was that
MS needed a more broad influx of ideas and thoughts.
Does it bother you that the UK isn't producing engineers or
scientists?
>
On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:19:08 +0100, "Dave Gordon" <d@p> wrote:
>
>"Maxwell Lol" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> "Casey" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>>I
>>> cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
>>> encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
>>
>> It's simple, They worship the same god: $$$$$$$$$
>
>They want the Chinese to be economically dependant on the US, so a war would be economic suicide for
>them. Of course the big flaw is, once they get their hands on the technology, they reverse engineer it
>and copy it. Then they sell it back cheaper.
That's a BIG flaw when you reach the point that a brief hold back of
goods can send a country to the can. You would have thought we could
have learned something for letting ourselves become oil dependent! We
cut back native production and destroyed most of the independent
producers in this country and now just a short term holdout would be
devistating.
>
On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:07:38 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Dave Gordon" <d@p> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Digger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>
>No wonder we have so much pseudo-science these days
>> like the myth of man-made global warming (dont get me started!).
>
>
>No kidding. Just the latest political subject to steer us away from the
>real problems in this world. Similar to the inflated gasoline prices. I
>have heard every excuse under the sun for the rising prices. None pan out.
>Oil is at an all time high and gasoline is almost at a 2 year low.
Well along the gulf coast where the news told us 25+% us refining came
from raised the prices after Katrina but yet gas prices were cheaper
in NE Tennessee than in Central Texas and suddenly diesel was more
expensive than gas when you get more diesel from a barrel of crude
than gas. But truckers couldn't wait for better prices. I remember
when the first "gas shortage" occurred in the 70's a refinery caught
on fire in Houston TX. the local news media suggested they move the
refined gas back into all the tankers off shore away from the fire.
The reaction was they couldn't do that.... because the tankers were
low in the water already loaded with refined gas waiting for the price
increase but you didn't see that on the national news.
When you hear the "Oil Cartel" has held back production to raise
prices that "cartel" includes Mobil, Exxon etc etc.
Exxon was so arrogant in one of their news announcements when accused
of dealing with Hitler during WWII they said they were an
international company and they would do what was good for Exxon...
On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 13:42:54 +0100, "Dave Gordon" <d@p> wrote:
>"Digger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:17:15 +0100, "Dave Gordon" <d@p> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Digger" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 19:33:41 -0500, "Casey" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Digger,
>>>>>Welcome to the soapbox. I have been on it for years but to no avail.
>>>>>Some years ago American industry turned itself over to accountants.
>>>>>Accountants see only one thing, the bottom line. Hence we see products
>>>>>outsourced to third world countries who have no labor laws, no minimum wage,
>>>>>no pollution control laws and governmental oversite to insure quality and
>>>>>suitability for purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>>Chiese products particularly irritate me. China is not friend of the USA.
>>>>>It hasn't been since the communists exiled Chang Chi Chek to Formosa. I
>>>>>cannot understand how American Companies can, with the blessings and
>>>>>encouragement of the Federal government, engage in commerce with China.
>>>>
>>>> This country has been sold out and the gov't has turned a blind eye.
>>>> The trade deficit is so skewed there is no comparison and yet it goes
>>>> on. Microsoft is raising hell to admit more from India etc just to
>>>> hold down wages. And who do these companies think will buy their
>>>> products when they reduce spendable income in this country.
>>>>
>>>> Plus the in influx of labor from the north and south running
>>>> unchecked. And congress only worries about elections. What a deal!
>>>> We deserve what we elect!
>>>>
>>>From the UK so excuse my ignorance (and contradicting a jolly good rant), but isn't there a law in
>>>the
>>>US that immigrant labour has to be paid the same as an American doing the same job. Bill Gates isn't
>>>trying to import cheap labour, he's either trying to export cheap jobs (aka offshoring), or else he
>>>is
>>>trying to solve a hiring problem where he can't get engineers with degrees. If the US is like the
>>>UK,
>>>there has been a marked decline in software wages and numbers of jobs due to offshoring, with the
>>>consequence that no-one with any brains is doing engineering or science at University because there
>>>are no jobs and the wages are crap anyway.
>>
>> Maybe the best answer to offer since I don't have the stats on popular
>> degree programs is that people brought here on a sponsored visa are
>> prone to work on the low end of a broad scale plus I imagine would
>> enhance sales in those countries involved. His stated reason was that
>> MS needed a more broad influx of ideas and thoughts.
>>
>> Does it bother you that the UK isn't producing engineers or
>> scientists?
>
>To misquote Scott Adams, I find myself in the position of an undertaker on hearing of a coach crash
>nearby. No young engineers means more jobs for old engineers like me, or higher wages due to
>supply-and-demand, but the beancounters take a different view, and go offshore (actually
>off-continent, since India is the largest beneficiary) to get their engineering work done. Lay-offs,
>lower wages, bright students discouraged, lower numbers, offshoring, repeat.
>
>In the UK, the number of students entering engineering and science degrees has declined by 25% or so
>in the last 3 years, but has been declining by a lesser amount for 20 years - a combination of low
>wages and low esteem for engineers and scientists. No wonder we have so much pseudo-science these days
>like the myth of man-made global warming (dont get me started!).
>
LMAO I understand, you are very astute. And we must acknowledge the
leader who in his political campaign told us "he had planted tobacco
with his bare hands" in Tennessee a state he lost and then turned
around and lambasted tobacco for his sisters death! BUT he is buying
carbon credits so his personal excess is ok!
From what I am reading here the intimidation from the politically
correct group has modified many a scientific opinion. We are
destroying ourselves from within!!
"Dave Gordon" <d@p> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Digger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
No wonder we have so much pseudo-science these days
> like the myth of man-made global warming (dont get me started!).
No kidding. Just the latest political subject to steer us away from the
real problems in this world. Similar to the inflated gasoline prices. I
have heard every excuse under the sun for the rising prices. None pan out.
Oil is at an all time high and gasoline is almost at a 2 year low.