CAD program - Where to begin

CW wrote:

> Congratulations. You have just made the stupidest statement I have read
> today.

>>Not me. With the current administaration, the lights could go out at
>>any time.


Being from the Cleveland area I found it slightly humorous.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:53:21 GMT, "Pops" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Need some help here folks.
>
>I have a copy of TurboCad and am trying to learn how to use it. I'm about to
>go back to pencil and paper!

At the risk of getting my head taken off for presuming to teach CAD
drawing, when I barely get by in it myself, I'm listing some of the
things I've shown other guys to help get them started. I use TurboCad
Pro Version 5.0 and I don't know how it will compare to the version
you are using. I don't draw the way I show below but it takes you
through a few of the very basic steps.


1. Open Program.
2. Screen 1 - Select: "New From Page Setup Wizard." (NEXT)
3. Screen 2 - Select: "English." (NEXT)
4. Screen 3 - Select: "Fractional." "1/64"." (NEXT)
5. Screen 4 - Select: "Let TurboCad Get Paper Size From Default
Printer." (NEXT)
6. Screen 5 - Select: "Absolute." "1 : 1 (Full Size)." (NEXT)
7. Click "Finish".
8. You Should Now Be At The Drawing Screen.
9. Go To Diagonal Line Icon on the Toolbar. Click and Hold until
drop down menu of icons shows. Click on Rectangle Icon.
10. Move Cursor to Lower Left Area of Screen. Click and drag
rectangle up and to the right. Don't worry about the size of the
rectangle. Do not click again.
11. Hit "TAB". "Size 'A' Box" in lower left corner will be
highlighted. Enter 24 for width of rectangle.
12. Hit "TAB". "Size 'B' Box" in lower left corner will be
highlighted. Enter 48 for height of rectangle.
13. Hit "ENTER".
14. At top of screen click: VIEW then ZOOM then EXTENTS.
15. The screen will resize to show the whole rectangle.
16. At top of screen click: MOD then SNAPS then NEAREST ON
GRAPHIC.
17. Move Cursor close to lower left corner of rectangle. Click
and drag up and to the right.
18. Enter measurements in "Size 'A' (width of original rectangle)
and 'B'(whatever height you choose) Boxes as above, using "TAB".
Hit "ENTER".
19. Go to Double Rectangle Icon on the Toolbar (next to Rectangle
Icon). Click on it.
20. At top of screen click: FORMAT then PROPERTIES then DOUBLE
LINE.
21. In the highlighted box marked "SEPARATION" enter "4in"
(without the quotes).
22. In the "REFERENCE" area click "LEFT". Click "OK" to exit
screen.
23. Move Cursor to lower left corner of rectangle. Click and drag
up to the right. Do not worry about sizing it. Do not click again.
24. Using "TAB" to move between boxes, enter width of original
rectangle in "Size 'A' " and whatever height you choose in "Size 'B'
". Hit "ENTER".
25. At top of screen click: VIEW/ZOOM/ZOOM OUT. The screen will
resize.



Now you've done a few of the most basic tasks to make a drawing. Have
fun.


Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 15:35:12 GMT, Upscale wrote:
>
> Many of us aren't doing this professionally, so why is a Cad program even
> necessary? I use Fireworks for all my designs. Agreed, it's not 3D, but it's
> a vector drive program, (points are mathematically calculated), I can design
> in exact dimensions (eg 8 or 16 points to the inch) and it's reasonably easy
> to learn the basics.

Can you draw a line from the centre of a line that's 15 points long?
Have you got an object snap that will draw a circle centred on the
mid-point of any line? Dimensioning? Scaling? Rotating? Mirroring?
Arraying? Parts?....

> You can save the files to .png which leaves all the
> behind the scenes mathematical constructs in place for easy editing
> afterwards. Agreed it's not a cabinet program and but it seems to me that
> this great push towards cad for most woodworkers is only driven by the
> desire to use the latest and the greatest just because they're out there.

CAD's hardly the `latest & the greatest' ;)

I suppose if I didn't have CAD (AutoCAD LT) & didn't have an
engineering background I might not use it and just sketch out designs
on paper.

But since I've got it and can use it, I find it invaluable.

If I'd used 3D CAD more when I was engineering then I'd probably use a
3D CAD program, but I didn't so I don't.

It's what you're used to I guess.

>
> And yeah, I have and do occasionally use the french curve shapes that my
> father left me.

I've still got my french curves, adjustable set square etc. but
they've stayed boxed up for ~10 years.

Studies where done when CAD came into drawing offices & they showed
something like an 8 fold increase in productivity. That's the reason I
use it. Even though I'm hardly a professional, I'm getting old & my
time is valuable to me; much more valuable than the cost of my
software which I've had for many years.

I'd agree with other posters who say that a book on technical drawing
is worthwhile whether you use CAD or draw by hand. I'm sure there must
be resources on the web too.

First step is to be able to draw to scale using a specific projection
eg. 3rd or 1st. (Do they still use 1st in the US?)

BTW, I don't bother with isometric or oblique projections and
beginners shouldn't either.

With CAD the things you have to get familiar with first are setting
a grid and using object snaps. I think that the more you play around
with it, the better you'll get; although it might seem confusing at
first.

--

Frank

Rico wrote:


> If you don't know how to do the job with hand or power tools
> and buy a garage full of power tools, you have a steep
> learning curve ahead of you.



Not to mention a few missing body parts.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Tom Watson wrote:

> Anybody still have the "French Curve" that was an outline of a
> reclining woman?

About 10 different sizes and an old wooden triangular architect's scale.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Swingman wrote:
>
> I suspect everyone goes through the same thing when thrown in the deep end
> of the CAD pool.
>
> I finally decided to start thinking like a woodworker; if I need 4 stiles
> for the project, I draw a _perfect_ stile, then make copies, ad infinitum
> ... that's where the time savings come in. Once the parts are drawn, I "zoom
> in" to a gnats ass perspective and put them together.
>
> Biggest problem I still have is getting the scale right to start with. Once
> you figure how to make a rectangle/shape of the correct dimensions by
> inputting the dimensions in with the keyboard with the correct units, and
> with a scale you can live with, you're on your way.
>

I'm sitting here trying to figure out what you mean by "scale". Are you
talking about proportions of the pieces or are you doing your actual
drawing to a scale like you would normally with pencil & paper? I ask
because the only time I concern myself with "scale" is when I'm ready to
print out the plan to fit the paper, the plan is actually "drawn" at
1:1. I use Visual Cadd and am not familiar with how Turbocad works, had
imagined the same but it sure wouldn't be the first time I was wrong
today. :-)

Scott
--
An unkind remark is like a killing frost. No matter how much it warms
up later, the damage remains.

Tom Watson wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:07:21 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Tom Watson wrote:
> >
> >> Anybody still have the "French Curve" that was an outline of a
> >> reclining woman?
> >
> >About 10 different sizes and an old wooden triangular architect's scale.
>
> Yeah but do you have a "French Curve" that looks like the one I just
> posted on ABPW-ABPF?

No! ;-(
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Swingman wrote:
>
> "Mark" wrote in message
>
> > My cad instructor said if there is one thing to take with us when we
> > leave his class, that is to draw to full scale. 1:1
>
> There you go ... I took drafting in HS and engineering drawing in college,
> but having never taken a CAD course, that _is_ valuable information to me,
> and something I've never heard before.
>
> With regard to 1:1, what about "grids" for alignment of your drawing ... do
> you use them?
>
> I don't have my program on this computer (QuickCAD) so I can't bring it up
> to check, but at 1:1, what effect does that have on the size of each grid
> square?
>
> Before I figured out how to enter things like length of a line with the
> keyboard using my current program, I used the grid squares like graph paper
> to do that, and it could be a battle to get the scale right in order to work
> in 1/32nd increments, etc.
>
> It's those little, non-intuitive things, with no quick answers to be found
> in the Help files without some lucky searching, that makes the hill steeper.


As Mark said, always draw at full size (1:1). I never use a grid when
I'm doing a drawing because I find it to be something of a distraction.
I find that a blank screen and working in ortho mode are all I need 99%
of the time. As you've discovered, keyboard entry of the distances is
the easiest & most accurate way to go. Does QuickCad have a users group
that you could get help from?

It's really a damn shame that programs today have such poor manuals.
When I began with Generic Cadd 15 years ago it came with a terrific ring
binder manual that I still reference to today. I've never had a reason
to go looking for 3rd party info so have no clue as to what to recommend
to others.

Scott
--
An unkind remark is like a killing frost. No matter how much it warms
up later, the damage remains.

"Mark" wrote in message

> My cad instructor said if there is one thing to take with us when we
> leave his class, that is to draw to full scale. 1:1

There you go ... I took drafting in HS and engineering drawing in college,
but having never taken a CAD course, that _is_ valuable information to me,
and something I've never heard before.

With regard to 1:1, what about "grids" for alignment of your drawing ... do
you use them?

I don't have my program on this computer (QuickCAD) so I can't bring it up
to check, but at 1:1, what effect does that have on the size of each grid
square?

Before I figured out how to enter things like length of a line with the
keyboard using my current program, I used the grid squares like graph paper
to do that, and it could be a battle to get the scale right in order to work
in 1/32nd increments, etc.

It's those little, non-intuitive things, with no quick answers to be found
in the Help files without some lucky searching, that makes the hill steeper.

I've been around software for a long time, beta tested programs and
operating systems long before they hit the street, wrote a commercial
program (accounting) back in the 70's, co-authored pre-Internet modem to
modem communications software, and find most GUI software intuitive ... but
find CAD both intuitive as to concept, but often non-intuitive as to
methodology.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

I suspect everyone goes through the same thing when thrown in the deep end
of the CAD pool.

I finally decided to start thinking like a woodworker; if I need 4 stiles
for the project, I draw a _perfect_ stile, then make copies, ad infinitum
... that's where the time savings come in. Once the parts are drawn, I "zoom
in" to a gnats ass perspective and put them together.

Biggest problem I still have is getting the scale right to start with. Once
you figure how to make a rectangle/shape of the correct dimensions by
inputting the dimensions in with the keyboard with the correct units, and
with a scale you can live with, you're on your way.

Don't know if this is an accepted method or not, but after struggling with
CAD programs, it at least allows me to turn out shop drawings, which was the
point all along. It's amazing now how many of my projects actually look like
what I dreamed up in my mind before starting. :)

Actually look forward now to using the CAD program and CutList to really
'think out' projects before starting ... it does make a notable difference
in the final product.

FWIW, I bought a copy of QuickCAD ... can't quite put my finger on it, but
it seems more user friendly to me. YMMV

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"Pops" wrote in message
> Need some help here folks.
>
> I have a copy of TurboCad and am trying to learn how to use it. I'm about
to
> go back to pencil and paper!

Once you get used to it, you will find that buiding your project first on
the computer saves a lot of mistakes and gives you the chance to see exactly
what it is going to look like before you do it. All my projects are done in
3D (Turbocad Pro) first.


"Brian in Vancouver, BC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:IvArb.35349$%Q5.22369@edtnps84...
> Martin;
>
> I finally found and downloaded the Pro/Desktop CAD package. WOW! Thanks
> for the link. I am most impressed!
>
> Now I just have to spend a lot of time to unlearn AutoCAD/IntelliCAD
> techniques and learn the 3D techniques in Pro/Desktop. This is a VERY
NEAT
> package. Just what I have always wanted to do - be able to simply create
> 3D drawings of my woodworking projects. Can't wait to get my first one
> done. As I try to cut holes (dados, etc.) in my stiles, I find that I am
> missing some of the techniques to move to different work planes, etc. so I
> go back and redo the tutorials. (Better luck next time?)
>
> Thanks again.
>

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:07:21 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> Anybody still have the "French Curve" that was an outline of a
>> reclining woman?
>
>About 10 different sizes and an old wooden triangular architect's scale.

Yeah but do you have a "French Curve" that looks like the one I just
posted on ABPW-ABPF?

(tom - who used to use the boxwood scales but switched to a metal one
'cause he was always nicking up the corners of the wooden ones and
even though he was taught better than to use the scale as a
straightedge he never really got used to the idear real good so it was
important to have an un-nicked edge ta run the damned pencil on)



Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

Now that I look at it again (when I'm awake), I agree with you. My bad.
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>
>
> CW wrote:
>
> > Congratulations. You have just made the stupidest statement I have read
> > today.
>
> >>Not me. With the current administaration, the lights could go out at
> >>any time.
>
>
> Being from the Cleveland area I found it slightly humorous.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
> A.K.A. Mark Twain)
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
> suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
>

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:03:43 -0600, Reaper wrote:
>
> I actually figured this out after I posted the message. I stayed up
> way to late. But you dont have to enter l on AC 2004. You just get it
> going the right direction you can just enter the length or distance
> and hit enter.
> Thaks for all the help, Darrell
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:39:06 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Reaper wrote:
>>
>>> I'm trying to learn autocad. I cant even figure out how to tell the
>>> program I want the line to be a certain length. Any help would be
>>> appreciated.
>>
>>
>>Apparently I wrote something good earlier in this thread. It dealt with
>>grid, snap, scale and how to start the drawing.
>>
>>What Leon said, pick the start point, hit 'l', enter the length on the
>>keyboard, make sure the lines going the right direction, hit enter.
>>
>>Always snap the first endpoint of the drawings first line to a whole number.
>>

The `right direction'? What if you want to draw a line 30 units long
at 75° from some point?

@30<75

That's using polar co-ordinates. You can also use rectangular
co-ordinates. Eg. A line that projects vertically down 30 units:

@0,-30

It's often quicker then stuffing around with snaps ie. your snap might
be set at every 50 units.

Obviously you have to pick your start point first. You can do that
either with the mouse or by entering an absolute co-ordinate at the
prompt. E.g:

30,40

That worked with AutoCAD 13 (last version I used) and it works with an
ancient version of AutoCAD LT.

Might be worth your while subscribing to some AutoCAD groups.....don't
know which ones...comp.cad.autocad,alt.cad.autocad....


--

Frank

Frank Shute wrote:
>
>
> The `right direction'? What if you want to draw a line 30 units long
> at 75° from some point?
> .........
> Might be worth your while subscribing to some AutoCAD groups.....don't
> know which ones...comp.cad.autocad,alt.cad.autocad....
>
>


Right Direction, granted that wasn't the best wording. However I thought
I was trying to help someone new get their first line down, and how to
become familiar with entering distance from the keyboard.

The basics.

Far as polar settings not being correct for what line being drawn, I'll
be happy to inform you on how to find the polar tracking settings. The
settings can be changed after you start the line.







--
--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Sorry. I found the link. It is
http://www.ptc.com/products/desktop/express/license.htm

Brian

"Brian in Vancouver, BC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ZpTqb.3641$%Q5.181@edtnps84...
| Martin;
|
| The 3D CAD package you mention looks interesting, but when I go to their
| site, I don't see anything that looks like a free download feature. I
only
| see choices that seem to result in purchase options. Am I missing
| something? Can you give me a more precise link to the "free" software.
|
| I used AutoCAD since about version 4 until retirement (finishing with
| AutoCAD 14) and since retirement I have been using IntelliCAD, however I
| have never done 3D since it seemed so daunting a task. Sure would like
to
| give it a try if I can find a link to the free software package.
|
| Brian

This may not be for everyone, but somebody needs to mention it.

You can get a very sophisticated 3D CAD program free for individual use,
fully functional with no time limit, from www.ptc.com. It is called
ProDesktop, and it is made by the same folks that produce ProE and sell
it for big money to big companies.

ProDesktop has a tutorial that takes a while to get through (any good
CAD program has so many features and controls that it will take a while
to learn) but if you do the tutorial and then jump into a project, you
will learn to do a lot with little effort.

My first project with this program was a swivel-topped cabinet for a
dollhouse stand, and my second was an equatorial platform for keeping a
telescope pointed at a point in the sky. In both cases the drawings had
moving parts that let me move things through the range of motion to see
what they looked like and check for interference. In general, you
design parts (alone or in the context of the main assembly) and then put
them in the assembly with particular alignment/distance constraints to
other parts, and it is possible to define constraints that allow
controlled movement of parts. This was especially important for the
equatorial platform, which was quite complex mechanically.

I had only a little CAD experience (early Autocad) but got through the
tutorial OK.

There are probably dedicated programs for such things as cabinet layout
that make specific types of projects much easier with less learning
curve, and for material planning and cutting it would be hard to beat
Cutlist Plus, but this software is really outstanding and free, so if 3D
CAD interests you, check it out.

Swingman wrote:
>
> I finally decided to start thinking like a woodworker; if I need 4 stiles
> for the project, I draw a _perfect_ stile, then make copies, ad infinitum
> ... that's where the time savings come in. Once the parts are drawn, I "zoom
> in" to a gnats ass perspective and put them together.


OK I"ve just startede looking at these programs myself. I've looked at
DeltaCAD, and EasyCab and I"ve got eCabinetSystems on the way. Why would
I use a full blown CAD system to do cabinets? From my limited use of
cabinet software I can tell it how I make my cabinets, butt joints,
rabits or dados and when I say the cabinet is for instance 32" high by
18" wide that the piece I cut for the bottom is going to be 32 3/4" wide
to extend into the rabits at the bottom of the sides. From what I've
seen in this DeltaCAD I have to crate each individual piece so if I
change construction methods I need to create new objects instead of just
changing the check mark in the construciton techniques. Then what do I
have to do in a CAD system to get a cut list? Are there cabinet making
ad ins for CAD systems? I would guess there is for AutoCAD but what are
we talking in price here, probably into 6 figures.

Martin;

I finally found and downloaded the Pro/Desktop CAD package. WOW! Thanks
for the link. I am most impressed!

Now I just have to spend a lot of time to unlearn AutoCAD/IntelliCAD
techniques and learn the 3D techniques in Pro/Desktop. This is a VERY NEAT
package. Just what I have always wanted to do - be able to simply create
3D drawings of my woodworking projects. Can't wait to get my first one
done. As I try to cut holes (dados, etc.) in my stiles, I find that I am
missing some of the techniques to move to different work planes, etc. so I
go back and redo the tutorials. (Better luck next time?)

Thanks again.

Brian

"Martin McCrorey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
| This may not be for everyone, but somebody needs to mention it.
|
| You can get a very sophisticated 3D CAD program free for individual use,
| fully functional with no time limit, from www.ptc.com. It is called
| ProDesktop, and it is made by the same folks that produce ProE and sell
| it for big money to big companies.
|
| ProDesktop has a tutorial that takes a while to get through (any good
| CAD program has so many features and controls that it will take a while
| to learn) but if you do the tutorial and then jump into a project, you
| will learn to do a lot with little effort.
|
| My first project with this program was a swivel-topped cabinet for a
| dollhouse stand, and my second was an equatorial platform for keeping a
| telescope pointed at a point in the sky. In both cases the drawings had
| moving parts that let me move things through the range of motion to see
| what they looked like and check for interference. In general, you
| design parts (alone or in the context of the main assembly) and then put
| them in the assembly with particular alignment/distance constraints to
| other parts, and it is possible to define constraints that allow
| controlled movement of parts. This was especially important for the
| equatorial platform, which was quite complex mechanically.
|
| I had only a little CAD experience (early Autocad) but got through the
| tutorial OK.
|
| There are probably dedicated programs for such things as cabinet layout
| that make specific types of projects much easier with less learning
| curve, and for material planning and cutting it would be hard to beat
| Cutlist Plus, but this software is really outstanding and free, so if 3D
| CAD interests you, check it out.
|

Turbocad works the same way. Draw 1:1 in model space, insert in paper space
and scale to suite. There are different methods (in detail only) and there
is even a setting that will let you think that you are scaling the model
space drawing but you are still drawing 1:1


"Scott Brownell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>
> I'm sitting here trying to figure out what you mean by "scale". Are you
> talking about proportions of the pieces or are you doing your actual
> drawing to a scale like you would normally with pencil & paper? I ask
> because the only time I concern myself with "scale" is when I'm ready to
> print out the plan to fit the paper, the plan is actually "drawn" at
> 1:1. I use Visual Cadd and am not familiar with how Turbocad works, had
> imagined the same but it sure wouldn't be the first time I was wrong
> today. :-)
>
> Scott
> --
> An unkind remark is like a killing frost. No matter how much it warms
> up later, the damage remains.

Reaper wrote:

> I actually figured this out after I posted the message. I stayed up
> way to late. But you dont have to enter l on AC 2004. You just get it
> going the right direction you can just enter the length or distance
> and hit enter.


Your right, what was I thinking? Apparently not on what I was writing.

'L' starts the command.






--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Corn Counting WebsterSteve wrote:
> >Who ever taught you to run your pencil on a scale? A scale is for
> >mearsuing. A Mayline( or T-square) and triangle are for drafting.
> >You NEVER draw on your scale.
>
>
> Unless your scale is part of your track machine(1)
> (Mutoh/Vemco/Alvin/Others).


Ahhh, must be the difference between Architectural and Mechanical drafting.
All we ever used were Maylines. Those wackjobs in Mechanical had those
things that didn't draw horizontal.

Tom Watson wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:53:21 GMT, "Pops" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Need some help here folks.
> >
> >I have a copy of TurboCad and am trying to learn how to use it. I'm about to
> >go back to pencil and paper!
>
> At the risk of getting my head taken off for presuming to teach CAD
> drawing, when I barely get by in it myself, I'm listing some of the
> things I've shown other guys to help get them started. I use TurboCad
> Pro Version 5.0 and I don't know how it will compare to the version
> you are using. I don't draw the way I show below but it takes you
> through a few of the very basic steps.
>
>

As a person who is barely able to get by yourself, but
working at it, you are more qualified than an experienced
user who has forgotten what it was like to learn.
Particularly for those who didn't have a good drafting
background to start with.

CAD vs manual drawing is a lot like power tools vs hand
tools. If you already know how to do the job with hand
tools, then learning to do the job with power tools is easy.

If you don't know how to do the job with hand or power tools
and buy a garage full of power tools, you have a steep
learning curve ahead of you.

Dick



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Upscale wrote:
> Many of us aren't doing this professionally, so why is a Cad program even
> necessary? I use Fireworks for all my designs. Agreed, it's not 3D, but it's
> a vector drive program, (points are mathematically calculated), I can design
> in exact dimensions (eg 8 or 16 points to the inch) and it's reasonably easy
> to learn the basics. You can save the files to .png which leaves all the
> behind the scenes mathematical constructs in place for easy editing
> afterwards. Agreed it's not a cabinet program and but it seems to me that
> this great push towards cad for most woodworkers is only driven by the
> desire to use the latest and the greatest just because they're out there.
>
> And yeah, I have and do occasionally use the french curve shapes that my
> father left me.
>

The advantage to learning a CAD program is that it's less
specialized. What you learn in a CAD program is applicable
to a boat load of other completely unrelated design uses.


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Yes actually, Fireworks will do all of those things. Some of them take a
little bit of a jury rig, but they're not that difficult to do.

"Frank Shute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 15:35:12 GMT, Upscale wrote:
> >
> > Many of us aren't doing this professionally, so why is a Cad program
even
> > necessary? I use Fireworks for all my designs. Agreed, it's not 3D, but
it's
>
> Can you draw a line from the centre of a line that's 15 points long?
> Have you got an object snap that will draw a circle centred on the
> mid-point of any line? Dimensioning? Scaling? Rotating? Mirroring?
> Arraying? Parts?....

Leon wrote:

>
>
>
> Humm... I have not seen your version but you mention that you do not have to
> enter "L" to draw a line.


It was my mistake, in a post I wrote :

pick the start point, hit 'l', enter the length on the keyboard

When I meant/ should have written :

hit 'l' (starts command), pick start point, enter length from keyboard,
(Which is what you wrote).


I had it backwards.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Many of us aren't doing this professionally, so why is a Cad program even
necessary? I use Fireworks for all my designs. Agreed, it's not 3D, but it's
a vector drive program, (points are mathematically calculated), I can design
in exact dimensions (eg 8 or 16 points to the inch) and it's reasonably easy
to learn the basics. You can save the files to .png which leaves all the
behind the scenes mathematical constructs in place for easy editing
afterwards. Agreed it's not a cabinet program and but it seems to me that
this great push towards cad for most woodworkers is only driven by the
desire to use the latest and the greatest just because they're out there.

And yeah, I have and do occasionally use the french curve shapes that my
father left me.

"j" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why a CAD program? If you are drawing cabinets how abaout a cabinet
program?

It seems like a pain but go through the Turbocad tutorial. You will learn
more than you realize. The urge to go back to paper is normal. When people
ask me how long it takes to get fairly proficient with cad, I tell them 40
hours. That is usually about how much it takes before the urge to go back to
paper is overcome. On the IMSI website, they have a Turbocad user forum. You
might want to go there with specific questions.
http://www.imsisoft.com/faminfo.asp?fam=1


"Pops" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Need some help here folks.
>
> I have a copy of TurboCad and am trying to learn how to use it. I'm about
to
> go back to pencil and paper!
>
> Is there a good tutorial on how to draw? TurboCad has a tutorial but it is
> too detailed (ex - "Lets show you how to turn on your computer. Great! Now
> lets show you how to start up TurboCad.....").
>
> I'm looking for something that explains how to make drawings. Ex. Use the
> polyline tool and draw all the lines of your drawing. Don't worry about
> getting the perfect, we will show you how to correct that in a minuet. OR
> visualize your end drawing. Draw rectangles and circles for each piece
then
> we will show you how to put them all together.
>
> 2D or 3D, I don't care, I just want to make some simple to medium, blasted
> drawings.
>
> Any thoughts, ideas, web links or book names would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks
> Pops
>
>

First off, have you had any formal drafting instruction? I have used
probably a dozen different versions and brands of CAD in the last 18 years.
I had formal drafting training in school and was glad I did when I began
using CAD programs. For me the CAD programs were intuitive as I knew what
to do and what I needed to look for in the programs to draw. If you are
only going to do a few drawings, do them with a pencil and paper. If you
are going to use a CAD program often, I would advise getting a drafting book
and learn the basics so that you will know what tools to use and how to use
them for any specific CAD program.

Anyway, for most people CAD has a steep learning curve unless they have had
formal drafting instruction.

Learning CAD is kinda like learning to ride a motorcycle, its relatively
easy if you already know how to ride a bicycle.

"Pops" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Need some help here folks.
>
> I have a copy of TurboCad and am trying to learn how to use it. I'm about
to
> go back to pencil and paper!


AHH feel yo pain. I tried to make Turbocad work for me for nearly 10 years
making drawings for my physics teaching but finally abandoned it for
SmartDraw.
http://www.smartdraw.com/ Most any decent CAD program is not for the casual
user and is not intuitive. Since you've probably already pained(pun) for the
TurboCad my remarks probably help little.
Larry

--
Lawrence L'Hote
Columbia, MO
http://home.mchsi.com/~larrylhote
http://home.mchsi.com/~llhote

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 16:22:12 -0600, Lazarus Long
> <[email protected]> wrote:

> Anybody still have the "French Curve" that was an outline of a
> reclining woman?
>

What's a french curve grandpa?

S.
(who scoffed at the idea of multiple pencils (F, HB, 7H, etc) and could
draft an entire house with a single 2H pencil)

Congratulations. You have just made the stupidest statement I have read
today.

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 07:11:02 -0600, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> Not me. With the current administaration, the lights could go out at
> any time.

Martin;

The 3D CAD package you mention looks interesting, but when I go to their
site, I don't see anything that looks like a free download feature. I only
see choices that seem to result in purchase options. Am I missing
something? Can you give me a more precise link to the "free" software.

I used AutoCAD since about version 4 until retirement (finishing with
AutoCAD 14) and since retirement I have been using IntelliCAD, however I
have never done 3D since it seemed so daunting a task. Sure would like to
give it a try if I can find a link to the free software package.

Brian

"Martin McCrorey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
| This may not be for everyone, but somebody needs to mention it.
|
| You can get a very sophisticated 3D CAD program free for individual use,
| fully functional with no time limit, from www.ptc.com. It is called
| ProDesktop, and it is made by the same folks that produce ProE and sell
| it for big money to big companies.
|
| ProDesktop has a tutorial that takes a while to get through (any good
| CAD program has so many features and controls that it will take a while
| to learn) but if you do the tutorial and then jump into a project, you
| will learn to do a lot with little effort.
|
| My first project with this program was a swivel-topped cabinet for a
| dollhouse stand, and my second was an equatorial platform for keeping a
| telescope pointed at a point in the sky. In both cases the drawings had
| moving parts that let me move things through the range of motion to see
| what they looked like and check for interference. In general, you
| design parts (alone or in the context of the main assembly) and then put
| them in the assembly with particular alignment/distance constraints to
| other parts, and it is possible to define constraints that allow
| controlled movement of parts. This was especially important for the
| equatorial platform, which was quite complex mechanically.
|
| I had only a little CAD experience (early Autocad) but got through the
| tutorial OK.
|
| There are probably dedicated programs for such things as cabinet layout
| that make specific types of projects much easier with less learning
| curve, and for material planning and cutting it would be hard to beat
| Cutlist Plus, but this software is really outstanding and free, so if 3D
| CAD interests you, check it out.
|

Reaper wrote:

> I'm trying to learn autocad. I cant even figure out how to tell the
> program I want the line to be a certain length. Any help would be
> appreciated.


Apparently I wrote something good earlier in this thread. It dealt with
grid, snap, scale and how to start the drawing.

What Leon said, pick the start point, hit 'l', enter the length on the
keyboard, make sure the lines going the right direction, hit enter.

Always snap the first endpoint of the drawings first line to a whole number.




Remember, the Esc key is your best friend, it terminates all active
functions. If you find yourself going down a path you don't like use Esc
and start over. Erase if you need. Don't worry, there is no eraser dust
or indents in the paper to deal with. If you start a wrong procedure
(I.E. trim instead of extend) use Esc.


I have resisted making a 'look how smart I am' posts because I'm not
that knowledgeable. I've had a couple of classes but that doesn't make
me a freaking Guru. But I do have a firm grasp of the basics, and the
basics are what's needed to get started in anything. Ask any question,
if I can answer it I'll be happy to.



Where do I begin all but the simplest CAD drawing?

With a hand sketch of the concept with the basic dimensions and such.
It's like writing a term paper, some people have a solid vision and can
start and work straight through, the rest of us should make an outline.


Oh Hell, I see my first post is here, OOps. Well, I took the time to
write my opening, I'm not deleting it.

>>You and I and others know what a scale is. It's that funny three sided
>>'ruler' with 6 scales, and if you want to draw a line 1' long at half
>>scale you would draw a 6 inch line. We draw to scale because of the
>>limitations of the medium, the size of the paper.


After posting this I went to get my sketching equipment. I hadn't even
picked up a scale and I realized the above is wrong. It's the funny 3
sided thing with 10 scales and a ruler.




--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Swingman wrote:
> "Mark" wrote in message
>
>
>>My cad instructor said if there is one thing to take with us when we
>>leave his class, that is to draw to full scale. 1:1
>
> There you go ... I took drafting in HS and engineering drawing in college,
> but having never taken a CAD course, that _is_ valuable information to me,
> and something I've never heard before.
>
> With regard to 1:1, what about "grids" for alignment of your drawing ... do
> you use them?

I have AutoCad-LT (ACad), a 2d educational version. I have access to the
full blown 3d at school. I'm unfamiliar with QuickCad and it's terminology.

In ACad the grid is a series of evenly spaced dots. Do I use the grid?
yes and no. The grid is only useful for a visual reference.

ACad has 'snap' which one type of snap 'zeros in' on intersecting lines
of imaginary graph paper. Do I use it? Rarely after the first two lines
are created.

If rule 1 is always draw 1:1 rule 2 is always start your drawing at a
snap point that's a whole number. If you don't snap to a whole number
the start point could be a number to (I think) the 13th decimal.

Snap and grid can be set to different spacing. I always set snap to a
even multiple of grid, 2 or 4 snaps per grid. I don't think I have ever
used 8 snaps per grid. When I drew the deck (16' x 20') I had the grid
set for one foot and snap set to six inches.


Snap is mostly shut off as lines and intersections rarely fall on snap
points.


> I don't have my program on this computer (QuickCAD) so I can't bring it up
> to check, but at 1:1, what effect does that have on the size of each grid
> square?


You and I and others know what a scale is. It's that funny three sided
'ruler' with 6 scales, and if you want to draw a line 1' long at half
scale you would draw a 6 inch line. We draw to scale because of the
limitations of the medium, the size of the paper.

Throw that thinking out. Forget it.

With cad programs the 'paper' in infinite (to the limits of the program
and processor). There is no reason to scale anything (at least not while
drawing).

I believe Dr. Boyl gave the example of why to never draw to scale: You
draw one part 2:1 and its mating part at 4:1, now put them in the same
drawing. They won't match. They can be made to match, but why hurt yourself?




>
> Before I figured out how to enter things like length of a line with the
> keyboard using my current program, I used the grid squares like graph paper
> to do that, and it could be a battle to get the scale right in order to work
> in 1/32nd increments, etc.


Direct keyboard entry is imperative. This is why I don't worry about and
generally don't use snap/ grid spacing for drawing. Fact snap is a
hindrance as the machine wants to go to a snap point which may have
nothing to do with the drawing.

But then like I said, my spacing are whole numbers.

How do I get fractional points? Geometric construction. Same as with
pencil and paper.

Except with CAD it's lots easier to erase construction lines.


>
> It's those little, non-intuitive things, with no quick answers to be found
> in the Help files without some lucky searching, that makes the hill steeper.


Let's not go there. ACad is infamous for having functions that don't
appear in pull downs, tool bars, can be accessed only by keyboard, and
some aren't documented.

Generally help files are frigging useless. I think companies went to on
line help files so you would have to buy their book(s). That backfired
because it created a market for third party instruction.




Hope this helped, like I said I'm familiar with AutoCad. I don't know
what QuickCADs capabilities are, what they call their features and
functions.


BTW, I've also had instruction in parametric drawing.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:44:56 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>yes. its good to see someone say this. There are far to many people that
>think all they have to do is learn a program and they are a drafter. It
>doesn't work that way.
>
>

Yes, yes, yes! The new guys that are hired all have cad training at
school, but don't seem to "get it" for actually making a drawing.
Some are good, but many aren't.

BTW, I've been at this for over 25 years.

> even though he was taught better than to use the scale as a
> straightedge he never really got used to the idear real good so it was
> important to have an un-nicked edge ta run the damned pencil on)
>


Who ever taught you to run your pencil on a scale? A scale is for
mearsuing. A Mayline( or T-square) and triangle are for drafting.
You NEVER draw on your scale.

yes. its good to see someone say this. There are far to many people that
think all they have to do is learn a program and they are a drafter. It
doesn't work that way.


"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> First off, have you had any formal drafting instruction? I have used
> probably a dozen different versions and brands of CAD in the last 18
years.
> I had formal drafting training in school and was glad I did when I began
> using CAD programs. For me the CAD programs were intuitive as I knew what
> to do and what I needed to look for in the programs to draw. If you are
> only going to do a few drawings, do them with a pencil and paper. If you
> are going to use a CAD program often, I would advise getting a drafting
book
> and learn the basics so that you will know what tools to use and how to
use
> them for any specific CAD program.
>
> Anyway, for most people CAD has a steep learning curve unless they have
had
> formal drafting instruction.
>
> Learning CAD is kinda like learning to ride a motorcycle, its relatively
> easy if you already know how to ride a bicycle.
>
>
>
>

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 16:22:12 -0600, Lazarus Long
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Yes, yes, yes! The new guys that are hired all have cad training at
>school, but don't seem to "get it" for actually making a drawing.
>Some are good, but many aren't.
>
>BTW, I've been at this for over 25 years.

I studied mechanical drawing in the early seventies.

Just went to grab my old text book off the shelf:

Mechanical Drawing, French and Svensen.

The earliest copyright date on this text is 1919, so I figure a lot of
guys have gone to school on this one.

Ya know, I finally had myself set up with a good board, lotsa
templates, nice drawing tools, and a comfortable stool - and then
along came CAD...

I still clamp the articulated arm onto some ply or MDF once in a while
to draw full size.

Anybody still have the "French Curve" that was an outline of a
reclining woman?

(still got mine)


Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

I have a series of articles on my web regarding woodworking with CAD.
It isn't complete but it might help some.

PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com

Scott Brownell <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Swingman wrote:
> >
> > I suspect everyone goes through the same thing when thrown in the deep end
> > of the CAD pool.
> >
> > I finally decided to start thinking like a woodworker; if I need 4 stiles
> > for the project, I draw a _perfect_ stile, then make copies, ad infinitum
> > ... that's where the time savings come in. Once the parts are drawn, I "zoom
> > in" to a gnats ass perspective and put them together.

Bing! Libraries are how you save time in CAD.

> >
> > Biggest problem I still have is getting the scale right to start with. Once
> > you figure how to make a rectangle/shape of the correct dimensions by
> > inputting the dimensions in with the keyboard with the correct units, and
> > with a scale you can live with, you're on your way.
> >
>
> I'm sitting here trying to figure out what you mean by "scale". Are you
> talking about proportions of the pieces or are you doing your actual
> drawing to a scale like you would normally with pencil & paper? I ask
> because the only time I concern myself with "scale" is when I'm ready to
> print out the plan to fit the paper, the plan is actually "drawn" at
> 1:1. I use Visual Cadd and am not familiar with how Turbocad works, had
> imagined the same but it sure wouldn't be the first time I was wrong
> today. :-)
>

Scale is pretty much a useless concept in CAD. Suppose you draw a
2 x 4 at half scale. For every CAD program I have used if you then
go and use the autodimension feature the dimensions will be labeled
0.75" and 1.75" NOT 1.5" and 3.5". So draw the project in full scale,
1:1 then your dimensions will be OK and you can even measure as you
go by using 'relative coordinates'. With relative coordinates
every time you drop a point that point becomes your new origin and
as you draw a line from that point somewhere on your screen there
will be a display of how long the line is so that you can drop the
end to where you want it.

--

FF

Reaper <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I'm trying to learn autocad. I cant even figure out how to tell the
> program I want the line to be a certain length. Any help would be
> appreciated.
> Thanks, Darrell
> On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 17:31:38 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>

I use relative coordinates so that as stretch a line the length
is displayed. I also use the orthogonal line feature all the time.

If I want to measure nonorthogonal lengths, I use polar coordinates.

There are many ways to do the same thing.

--

FF

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:58:12 GMT, Mark wrote:
>
>
> Frank Shute wrote:
>>
>>
>> The `right direction'? What if you want to draw a line 30 units long
>> at 75° from some point?
>> .........
>> Might be worth your while subscribing to some AutoCAD groups.....don't
>> know which ones...comp.cad.autocad,alt.cad.autocad....
>>
>>
>
>
> Right Direction, granted that wasn't the best wording. However I thought
> I was trying to help someone new get their first line down, and how to
> become familiar with entering distance from the keyboard.
>
> The basics.

I wasn't being critical of what you were trying to do, I was just
supplying the original poster with some further info which might be
useful to him & my comments about subscribing to a newsgroup were
directed at him also.


>
> Far as polar settings not being correct for what line being drawn, I'll
> be happy to inform you on how to find the polar tracking settings. The
> settings can be changed after you start the line.

Do you mean snap angle?

sn
r

on my (archaic) version of LT.


--

Frank

Damn ... learned more about the basic, conceptual side, of using CAD from
your post than I have in a year of trying the various programs ... every
little bit helps.

Thanks!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

"Mark" wrote in message

>
> I have AutoCad-LT (ACad), a 2d educational version. I have access to the
> full blown 3d at school. I'm unfamiliar with QuickCad and it's
terminology.
>
> In ACad the grid is a series of evenly spaced dots. Do I use the grid?
> yes and no. The grid is only useful for a visual reference.

Why a CAD program? If you are drawing cabinets how abaout a cabinet program?

Swingman wrote:
> Damn ... learned more about the basic, conceptual side, of using CAD from
> your post than I have in a year of trying the various programs ... every
> little bit helps.
>
> Thanks!


Welcome.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

A book. "Autocad 2002: No Experience Required". By David Frey.
ISBN 0-7821-4016-5.

It's essentially a step-by-step tutorial on how to draw the plans
for a small cottage. But if you follow it, page by page, you'll learn
all you need to know about autocad and can then apply it to your own
drawings.

Rather lengthy, took me about a month @ 2hrs per day, but it was
time well invested.

If you have a different version of autocad, dont worry about. The
basic commands havent changed in a long time.

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 23:23:10 -0600,
Reaper<[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm trying to learn autocad. I cant even figure out how to tell the
>program I want the line to be a certain length. Any help would be
>appreciated.
>Thanks, Darrell
>On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 17:31:38 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
<snipped>

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 07:11:02 -0600, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Corn Counting WebsterSteve wrote:
>>Who ever taught you to run your pencil on a scale? A scale is for
>>mearsuing. A Mayline( or T-square) and triangle are for drafting.
>>You NEVER draw on your scale.
>
>
>Unless your scale is part of your track machine(1)
>(Mutoh/Vemco/Alvin/Others).

Yup, mine's a Mutoh.
>
>I've often wondered what the drafting template (flat plastic
>sheets with circles/squares/triangles and other shapes)
>industry is like today. And Borco, there's a product line
>that has to have gone tits up recently. Let's not also
>forget electric erasers and eraser shields.

And them cool lead pointers and the wimpy brushes fer da eraser crumbs
and all the little bows and pen bows and dividers and bow extenders
and on and on and . . .

I've still got all mine stored in the Y2K survival kit.
>
>But I wouldn't mind having a 3' X 4' board in the shop
>covered in Borco just for cut 'n paste and that kinda thing.

I still clamp the Mutoh onto stuff for full size drawing directally
onna stock - I ain't giving it up neither.
>
>sigh...
>
>God bless Al Gore for the invention of AutoCAD.

Akshully, history has proven that Clinton was more of a CAD than Gore.
>
>(1) A track style drafting machine is kinda sorta like a
>Biesmeyer fence for your table saw. It operates kinda/sorta
>the same and is similar in upgrades from a parallel bar.
>
>http://www.suppliesnet.com/DraftingMachines.htm
>
>UA100, who hasn't used his Mutoh (finally gave it away to
>the neighbor gurl) since 1997ish and hasn't looked back...

Not me. With the current administaration, the lights could go out at
any time.




Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

"Reaper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm trying to learn autocad. I cant even figure out how to tell the
> program I want the line to be a certain length. Any help would be
> appreciated.
> Thanks, Darrell
..

On the later programs that use Direct Distance Entry, simply type "L" to
start the line command, click a start point, drag your mouse in the
direction you want to go, type in the distance, and hit enter.

Surely brings back good memories although I didn't see them as such at
that time.


On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 16:08:11 GMT, "PM6564"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Corn Counting WebsterSteve wrote:
>> >Who ever taught you to run your pencil on a scale? A scale is for
>> >mearsuing. A Mayline( or T-square) and triangle are for drafting.
>> >You NEVER draw on your scale.
>>
>>
>> Unless your scale is part of your track machine(1)
>> (Mutoh/Vemco/Alvin/Others).
>
>
>Ahhh, must be the difference between Architectural and Mechanical drafting.
>All we ever used were Maylines. Those wackjobs in Mechanical had those
>things that didn't draw horizontal.
>

I started with Autcad R13C3. It was OK but the most valuable thing you
can have is a neighbor/friend whom you can ask questions of when you
run into problems. I actually started with vs. 10 but took real
lessons in vs. 13. Old rule of thumb was buy the even numbered
versions; the odd numbered were odd.

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:35:56 -0500, Tom Watson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:53:21 GMT, "Pops" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Need some help here folks.
>>
>>I have a copy of TurboCad and am trying to learn how to use it. I'm about to
>>go back to pencil and paper!
>
>At the risk of getting my head taken off for presuming to teach CAD
>drawing, when I barely get by in it myself, I'm listing some of the
>things I've shown other guys to help get them started. I use TurboCad
>Pro Version 5.0 and I don't know how it will compare to the version
>you are using. I don't draw the way I show below but it takes you
>through a few of the very basic steps.
>
>
>1. Open Program.
>2. Screen 1 - Select: "New From Page Setup Wizard." (NEXT)
>3. Screen 2 - Select: "English." (NEXT)
>4. Screen 3 - Select: "Fractional." "1/64"." (NEXT)
>5. Screen 4 - Select: "Let TurboCad Get Paper Size From Default
>Printer." (NEXT)
>6. Screen 5 - Select: "Absolute." "1 : 1 (Full Size)." (NEXT)
>7. Click "Finish".
>8. You Should Now Be At The Drawing Screen.
>9. Go To Diagonal Line Icon on the Toolbar. Click and Hold until
>drop down menu of icons shows. Click on Rectangle Icon.
>10. Move Cursor to Lower Left Area of Screen. Click and drag
>rectangle up and to the right. Don't worry about the size of the
>rectangle. Do not click again.
>11. Hit "TAB". "Size 'A' Box" in lower left corner will be
>highlighted. Enter 24 for width of rectangle.
>12. Hit "TAB". "Size 'B' Box" in lower left corner will be
>highlighted. Enter 48 for height of rectangle.
>13. Hit "ENTER".
>14. At top of screen click: VIEW then ZOOM then EXTENTS.
>15. The screen will resize to show the whole rectangle.
>16. At top of screen click: MOD then SNAPS then NEAREST ON
>GRAPHIC.
>17. Move Cursor close to lower left corner of rectangle. Click
>and drag up and to the right.
>18. Enter measurements in "Size 'A' (width of original rectangle)
>and 'B'(whatever height you choose) Boxes as above, using "TAB".
>Hit "ENTER".
>19. Go to Double Rectangle Icon on the Toolbar (next to Rectangle
>Icon). Click on it.
>20. At top of screen click: FORMAT then PROPERTIES then DOUBLE
>LINE.
>21. In the highlighted box marked "SEPARATION" enter "4in"
>(without the quotes).
>22. In the "REFERENCE" area click "LEFT". Click "OK" to exit
>screen.
>23. Move Cursor to lower left corner of rectangle. Click and drag
>up to the right. Do not worry about sizing it. Do not click again.
>24. Using "TAB" to move between boxes, enter width of original
>rectangle in "Size 'A' " and whatever height you choose in "Size 'B'
>". Hit "ENTER".
>25. At top of screen click: VIEW/ZOOM/ZOOM OUT. The screen will
>resize.
>
>
>
>Now you've done a few of the most basic tasks to make a drawing. Have
>fun.
>
>
>Regards, Tom
>Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
>Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
>http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

Corn Counting WebsterSteve wrote:
>Who ever taught you to run your pencil on a scale? A scale is for
>mearsuing. A Mayline( or T-square) and triangle are for drafting.
>You NEVER draw on your scale.


Unless your scale is part of your track machine(1)
(Mutoh/Vemco/Alvin/Others).

I've often wondered what the drafting template (flat plastic
sheets with circles/squares/triangles and other shapes)
industry is like today. And Borco, there's a product line
that has to have gone tits up recently. Let's not also
forget electric erasers and eraser shields.

But I wouldn't mind having a 3' X 4' board in the shop
covered in Borco just for cut 'n paste and that kinda thing.

sigh...

God bless Al Gore for the invention of AutoCAD.

(1) A track style drafting machine is kinda sorta like a
Biesmeyer fence for your table saw. It operates kinda/sorta
the same and is similar in upgrades from a parallel bar.

http://www.suppliesnet.com/DraftingMachines.htm

UA100, who hasn't used his Mutoh (finally gave it away to
the neighbor gurl) since 1997ish and hasn't looked back...

Borco is still commonly available as is all hand drawing instruments.


"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Corn Counting WebsterSteve wrote:
> >Who ever taught you to run your pencil on a scale? A scale is for
> >mearsuing. A Mayline( or T-square) and triangle are for drafting.
> >You NEVER draw on your scale.
>
>
> Unless your scale is part of your track machine(1)
> (Mutoh/Vemco/Alvin/Others).
>
> I've often wondered what the drafting template (flat plastic
> sheets with circles/squares/triangles and other shapes)
> industry is like today. And Borco, there's a product line
> that has to have gone tits up recently. Let's not also
> forget electric erasers and eraser shields.
>
> But I wouldn't mind having a 3' X 4' board in the shop
> covered in Borco just for cut 'n paste and that kinda thing.
>
> sigh...
>
> God bless Al Gore for the invention of AutoCAD.
>
> (1) A track style drafting machine is kinda sorta like a
> Biesmeyer fence for your table saw. It operates kinda/sorta
> the same and is similar in upgrades from a parallel bar.
>
> http://www.suppliesnet.com/DraftingMachines.htm
>
> UA100, who hasn't used his Mutoh (finally gave it away to
> the neighbor gurl) since 1997ish and hasn't looked back...

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:07:21 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> Anybody still have the "French Curve" that was an outline of a
>> reclining woman?
>
>About 10 different sizes and an old wooden triangular architect's scale.


Don't laugh, I recently bought some NEW drawing tools, as I prefer
them to CAD for many projects. <G>

Barry

I'm trying to learn autocad. I cant even figure out how to tell the
program I want the line to be a certain length. Any help would be
appreciated.
Thanks, Darrell
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 17:31:38 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>Swingman wrote:
>> "Mark" wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>My cad instructor said if there is one thing to take with us when we
>>>leave his class, that is to draw to full scale. 1:1
>>
>> There you go ... I took drafting in HS and engineering drawing in college,
>> but having never taken a CAD course, that _is_ valuable information to me,
>> and something I've never heard before.
>>
>> With regard to 1:1, what about "grids" for alignment of your drawing ... do
>> you use them?
>
>I have AutoCad-LT (ACad), a 2d educational version. I have access to the
>full blown 3d at school. I'm unfamiliar with QuickCad and it's terminology.
>
>In ACad the grid is a series of evenly spaced dots. Do I use the grid?
>yes and no. The grid is only useful for a visual reference.
>
>ACad has 'snap' which one type of snap 'zeros in' on intersecting lines
>of imaginary graph paper. Do I use it? Rarely after the first two lines
>are created.
>
>If rule 1 is always draw 1:1 rule 2 is always start your drawing at a
>snap point that's a whole number. If you don't snap to a whole number
>the start point could be a number to (I think) the 13th decimal.
>
>Snap and grid can be set to different spacing. I always set snap to a
>even multiple of grid, 2 or 4 snaps per grid. I don't think I have ever
>used 8 snaps per grid. When I drew the deck (16' x 20') I had the grid
>set for one foot and snap set to six inches.
>
>
>Snap is mostly shut off as lines and intersections rarely fall on snap
>points.
>
>
>> I don't have my program on this computer (QuickCAD) so I can't bring it up
>> to check, but at 1:1, what effect does that have on the size of each grid
>> square?
>
>
>You and I and others know what a scale is. It's that funny three sided
>'ruler' with 6 scales, and if you want to draw a line 1' long at half
>scale you would draw a 6 inch line. We draw to scale because of the
>limitations of the medium, the size of the paper.
>
>Throw that thinking out. Forget it.
>
>With cad programs the 'paper' in infinite (to the limits of the program
>and processor). There is no reason to scale anything (at least not while
>drawing).
>
>I believe Dr. Boyl gave the example of why to never draw to scale: You
>draw one part 2:1 and its mating part at 4:1, now put them in the same
>drawing. They won't match. They can be made to match, but why hurt yourself?
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Before I figured out how to enter things like length of a line with the
>> keyboard using my current program, I used the grid squares like graph paper
>> to do that, and it could be a battle to get the scale right in order to work
>> in 1/32nd increments, etc.
>
>
>Direct keyboard entry is imperative. This is why I don't worry about and
>generally don't use snap/ grid spacing for drawing. Fact snap is a
>hindrance as the machine wants to go to a snap point which may have
>nothing to do with the drawing.
>
>But then like I said, my spacing are whole numbers.
>
>How do I get fractional points? Geometric construction. Same as with
>pencil and paper.
>
>Except with CAD it's lots easier to erase construction lines.
>
>
>>
>> It's those little, non-intuitive things, with no quick answers to be found
>> in the Help files without some lucky searching, that makes the hill steeper.
>
>
>Let's not go there. ACad is infamous for having functions that don't
>appear in pull downs, tool bars, can be accessed only by keyboard, and
>some aren't documented.
>
>Generally help files are frigging useless. I think companies went to on
>line help files so you would have to buy their book(s). That backfired
>because it created a market for third party instruction.
>
>
>
>
>Hope this helped, like I said I'm familiar with AutoCad. I don't know
>what QuickCADs capabilities are, what they call their features and
>functions.
>
>
>BTW, I've also had instruction in parametric drawing.

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:35:56 -0500, Tom Watson
<[email protected]> wrote:


>16. At top of screen click: MOD then SNAPS then NEAREST ON
>GRAPHIC.


Please note that MOD should read MODE.

Sorry.


Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

I actually figured this out after I posted the message. I stayed up
way to late. But you dont have to enter l on AC 2004. You just get it
going the right direction you can just enter the length or distance
and hit enter.
Thaks for all the help, Darrell
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:39:06 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>Reaper wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to learn autocad. I cant even figure out how to tell the
>> program I want the line to be a certain length. Any help would be
>> appreciated.
>
>
>Apparently I wrote something good earlier in this thread. It dealt with
>grid, snap, scale and how to start the drawing.
>
>What Leon said, pick the start point, hit 'l', enter the length on the
>keyboard, make sure the lines going the right direction, hit enter.
>
>Always snap the first endpoint of the drawings first line to a whole number.
>
>
>
>
>Remember, the Esc key is your best friend, it terminates all active
>functions. If you find yourself going down a path you don't like use Esc
>and start over. Erase if you need. Don't worry, there is no eraser dust
>or indents in the paper to deal with. If you start a wrong procedure
>(I.E. trim instead of extend) use Esc.
>
>
>I have resisted making a 'look how smart I am' posts because I'm not
>that knowledgeable. I've had a couple of classes but that doesn't make
>me a freaking Guru. But I do have a firm grasp of the basics, and the
>basics are what's needed to get started in anything. Ask any question,
>if I can answer it I'll be happy to.
>
>
>
>Where do I begin all but the simplest CAD drawing?
>
>With a hand sketch of the concept with the basic dimensions and such.
>It's like writing a term paper, some people have a solid vision and can
>start and work straight through, the rest of us should make an outline.
>
>
>Oh Hell, I see my first post is here, OOps. Well, I took the time to
>write my opening, I'm not deleting it.
>
>>>You and I and others know what a scale is. It's that funny three sided
>>>'ruler' with 6 scales, and if you want to draw a line 1' long at half
>>>scale you would draw a 6 inch line. We draw to scale because of the
>>>limitations of the medium, the size of the paper.
>
>
>After posting this I went to get my sketching equipment. I hadn't even
>picked up a scale and I realized the above is wrong. It's the funny 3
>sided thing with 10 scales and a ruler.

"Reaper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I actually figured this out after I posted the message. I stayed up
> way to late. But you dont have to enter l on AC 2004. You just get it
> going the right direction you can just enter the length or distance
> and hit enter.
> Thaks for all the help, Darrell
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:39:06 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
> wrote:


Humm... I have not seen your version but you mention that you do not have to
enter "L" to draw a line. Perhaps you click the line icon instead. If not
that, how does the program know that you want to draw a line and not
something else. Does the program default to the draw line command when a
previous command has finished executing?

Congratulations. You picked one of the harder to learn programs. Go here:
http://www.we-r-here.com/cad/tutorials/index.htm have fun!


"Reaper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm trying to learn autocad. I cant even figure out how to tell the
> program I want the line to be a certain length. Any help would be
> appreciated.

CW wrote:

> Turbocad works the same way. Draw 1:1 in model space, insert in paper space
> and scale to suite. There are different methods (in detail only) and there
> is even a setting that will let you think that you are scaling the model
> space drawing but you are still drawing 1:1
>


My cad instructor said if there is one thing to take with us when we
leave his class, that is to draw to full scale. 1:1

I took drafting at the 'university' in the late 70's. Went back to
school a couple years ago, figured I should do a refresher so I took
drawing 101 (paper and pencil). I got an A. If I had turned that work in
back in the 70's I would have probably had to have taken the class again.

How things have changed.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)