Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "ARHA" feature?
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:17:45 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>OK. LROD... LOL Do you not get it? Bosch is building the red outer that
>>looks like the Bosch 1617EVS. Dewalt did or still builds the black and
>>silver plate joiner, and Dewalt did build the drills.
>
> Well, that may be, but I have my own list:
>
> 1960s era 10" table saw. Original fence was a POS. I replaced it with
> a '90s Sears fence. Much better, but no Bies. Overall, usable, but
> just no comparison to my Uni.
> 1960s era jigsaw, er scrollsaw they call them now. POS. Oil filled
> crank shaft got oil on everything within 3'.
> 1972 saber saw, er, jigsaw they call them now. POS. Cranking down on
> one of the two screws to hold the blade (and you had to) cracked the
> casting. Couldn't make a square cut. No comparison to my Bosch.
> 1972 RAS. Okay, but no DeWalt and won't stay in alignment past a
> couple of bumps.
> 1972 belt sander. POS. Can't wait to replace it--just as soon as I
> have a need for a belt sander.
> 1972 router. The mother of all POS. It's when I discovered the ARHA
> "feature.".
> 1972 drill press. Usable, but developed a vertical slop in the quill
> that I cannot fix. No comparison to my Delta.
> 1974 bandsaw. Underpowered, underweight, undersized. No comparison to
> my Delta.
> 1975 jointer. POS never would line up right. You could make the infeed
> table coplanar with the outfeed, OR you could raise and lower the
> infeed table, but you couldn't do both. Need I say DJ20?
> 1980 lathe. Odd size Morse tapers and spindle thread. No comparison to
> my Delta.
>
> Last summer my S-I-L bought one of their routers (Ryobi POS). Guess
> what? ARHA. I gave him a P-C 690 for Christmas.
>
> That's 0 for 10 or 11 depending on how you score my S-I-L's router.
> You don't have to hit me over the head with a 2x4. I absolutely do get
> it. The lathe is the last Sears tool I will EVER buy; I don't care who
> makes them. I don't even trust that if Bosch makes their jigsaw it's
> the same jigsaw as Bosch's jigsaw.
>
> One may ask, "why did you buy so many Sears tools if they were POS?"
> It's more or less a fair question, but basically back in the '70s
> there weren't any places to buy Deltas or Powermatics. Or not that I
> was aware of. Schools and professionals had them, but not us garage
> 'dorkers. And they commanded more of a premium over the Sears than
> they do today.
>
> Shoot, because there was no Norm or Boob or David J. we average DIY
> guys hardly even knew those tools existed. We couldn't ask Jon Eakes.
> There was no Scott Phillips, no Ron Hazelton, no David Thiel. There
> was no Jet, no Chiwanese tools, no Harbor Freight (thank god). A lot
> of you guys don't realize how good we have it nowadays compared to
> then.
>
> I don't even give the hand tools a pass anymore. Go to the borg and
> buy a Klein #2 Phillips screwdriver. Use it hard for a week. Then go
> get a Sears and use it hard for an hour. That's all it'll take. The
> wrenches are okay, but don't be convinced by the warranty. When Ace
> Hardware started warranting their Master Mechanic line of wrenches
> with the same warranty back in the '90s I figured it out. It's an
> actuarial thing, not a measure of tool quality. Just like rebates.
> Practically everyone warrants their wrenches for life, now.
>
> Want to call me a tool snob? Go ahead. I wear that tag proudly. I've
> used low end and I've used high end. I may not be able to do better
> work with the high end, but I do easier work since I'm not fighting
> the tool, and if you don't understand what the simple pleasure of
> using a good tool adds to the project there's no explaining it to you.
> And probably no point in you buying the tools I buy.
>
> Life is too short for third rate tools. Although in all fairness, I
> guess I should acknowledge that if I hadn't wallowed in so much
> Craftsman I may never have truly appreciated my Deltas, Makitas,
> Bosches, Porter-Cables, Milwaukees, Kleins, etc. when I got them. But
> if I could keep just one person from having to learn that lesson the
> way I did...
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
Through MY OWN experience, I have concluded that the quality of modern
Craftsman tools is very inconsistent at best and I now avoid them.
That's my choice. Having admitted that, I couldn't figure out why these
unsolicited disparaging remarks and the "Crapsman" epithet always rub
me the wrong way, until now.
It's rude. Simple as that.
Most of us on this forum are essentially strangers, even though we
share a meaningful connection through this hobby/profession of ours.
How many of us would walk into a stranger's shop and point to his
equipment and say "That's a POS"? Most of us would never do such a
thing.
There are a lot of folks on the wreck who for a variety of reasons own
and use one or more Craftsman tools. One of these reasons may be that
it's what they have and they don't have the free funds to replace it. I
contend that gratuitous bashing of Craftsman (or any brand) amounts to
pointing and laughing at people who we don't know well, and to whom we
should extend a higher level of courtesy.
By describing the bashing as "gratuitous" I am distinguishing it from
the honest, fact-based, and well intentioned sharing of opinions that
also goes on here. Hey, some may want to call LROD a tool snob, but
facts are facts. Like me and others, his opinion about Craftsman is
based on personal experience.
Just my two cents...
Tom
Let's see--I have the following Craftsman tools WITH moving parts:
1) 9" RAS - purchased in 1973 and still going strong
2) 10" table saw - almost a year old, and it works great
3) 3/8 corded variable reversible drill - about 18 years old & still
works & looks like it's new. It replaced the Craftsman Type 1
drill I bought in '73 that was stolen in '86.
4) Fancy ROS - works great
5) 13.2V Cordless drill - works great after almost 2 years
6) Scroll saw - at least 25 years old, still going strong
7) 7-1/4" circular saw - about 18 years old, still works great.
Replaced another Craftman tool that was stolen.
8) Electric staple gun - works great after 25 years, could use a
new power cord
9) Craftsman Pro Fixed/Plunge router kit - 3 months old and the BEST
router I've ever owned
10) Fixed router - 15 years old, still works good.
11) 4 x 21" belt sander - about 15 years old--still works good.
I got the new Craftsman Pro router because I wanted more power (2-1/4 HP
vs the 1.5 HP the old one has, and the new one will take 1/2" bits as
well as 1/4"
In short, I take exception to Hoyt's implication that Craftsman power
tools aren't any good.
--Steve
Hoyt Weathers wrote:
>
>
>
> if they have no moving parts !
You left out the third category: Those who just can't justify the cost
of the high-end stuff like what Norm has in his shop. The Craftsman
stuff does the job, and does it well, and the prices don't break the bank.
What exactly is it that I don't get?
LRod wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:51:19 -0800, Steve <Steve> wrote:
>
>
>>Let's see--I have the following Craftsman tools WITH moving parts:
>
>
> [extensive list of wasted money snipped]
>
>
>>In short, I take exception to Hoyt's implication that Craftsman power
>>tools aren't any good.
>
>
> There are two kinds of wooddorkers: those who have bought Craftsman
> power tools and learned from the experience that there are much better
> choices, and those who have bought Craftsman power tools and never get
> it.
>
I was aware that the router was essentially the same except for
cosmetics as the Bosch 1617EVS before I bought it. But at the time it
was $20 less than the Bosch. If they'd been offering the free accessory
kit with it at the time, I'd have bought the Bosch version. :-)
Never had any complaints about the Craftsman stuff I've bought, either
in terms of price or performance. Not everything I own is Craftsman,
BTW. And my next major purchase will most likely be a band saw, and I'm
fairly certain it WON'T be a Craftsman!
--Steve
Ba r r y wrote:
>
>>9) Craftsman Pro Fixed/Plunge router kit - 3 months old and the BEST
>> router I've ever owned
>
> This is actually a Bosch tool. <G> The Bosch version, known as the
> 1617EVS is subject to market price competition, the Craftsman version
> isn't.
>
Uncle Jessie And Don't You Forget It!!! wrote:
> Oh great! Another sandlefoot with some whiny crap about
> Craftsman.
>
<I left some stuff out to keep it short>
> Git 'er done!
That's the point, isn't it? If the tools you have get the job done, and
you're happy with 'em, then they're good stuff. Doesn't matter what you
paid for 'em, or what brand name they have or don't have on 'em, does it?
And my guitars come out just fine using my collection of Craftsman,
DeWalt, Ryobi, and (Omigod, dare I admit this?) Harbor Freight tools.
Take a look: http://www.cyrguitars.com
--Steve
Steven and Gail Peterson wrote:
> If they satisfy you, and you think they are great,
Great is not the issue: Usable and reliable are. And a vast customer
service & replacement parts capability doesn't hurt either. I can still
order some of the parts for that 32-year-old RAS (see below), for example.
> ignore all the other responses.
Not ignored, but taken with a grain of salt, shall we say? And when
someone's wrong, I have an obligation to say so, don't I? :-) Besides,
The guy who started this thread obviously did it to start something. I
felt duty-bound to help him out in that endeavor.
But there are other manufactureres.
You mean like the ones who make Craftsman tools? Sears doesn't make ANY
of them--the list includes Emerson Electric, Singer, Bosch.
Craftsman tools aren't the only ones I have either. One of the reasons
I have as many Craftsman tools as I do is that my mother-in-law in the
70's and 80's was a Sears employee in the HW/Tool department, so I not
only was able to have her buy stuff for me on occasion, but she would
tip me off when an exceptional sale was about to happen. That's how I
got the RAS (regular price in 1973: $160, purchase price: $108) and a
few of the other things I got back then.
> I have a number of Craftsman tools; some are good, others could
> be better. Applies to Delta and DeWalt too.
Me too: The Black & Decker cordless drill I bought a while back was
total crap--the Ryobi that replaced it was (and still is) excellent.
>
> Steve
>
My older Craftsman router did that to me ONCE. I didn't have the collet
tight enough, and the bit started descending while I was routing the
control cavity in a guitar body--the very first one I made, over two
years ago. Cut right thru the body into the MDF benchtop underneath. I
learned to make sure that collet was REALLY TIGHT, and it never happened
again. I assumed it was my fault, and not the tool's. Seems like
experience has confirmed that, since it has never happened again.
This router, BTW, while suitable for light -duty work, was not up to the
heavy load I put on it, and that's why I bought the new one at Christmas
(the Craftsman Pro/Bosch). It cuts deeper and smoother than the old one
ever did, and it seems to do it effortlessly, with the same bits. 50%
more power and a nice rigid aluminum motor housing make quite a
difference in how a router behaves. Very happy with it so far.
Not sure what to do with the old one--any suggestions?
On the topic at hand (the quality or lack thereof of Craftsman power
tools)--I'm not claiming that all Craftsman power tools are uniformly
good--just that in general my experience with them has been positive.
The ones I have work well for my needs, and I see no point in replacing
them unless they break.
For example, in the case of the Radial Arm Saw--Sears offered to buy the
motor from me for $100 (which was only $8 less than I paid for the whole
thing in '73) and I declined. That saw has performed well for me for
all these years, although I haven't used it much since I got the table
saw last year.
--Steve
Patriarch wrote:
>
> Automatic (or Autonomous) Router Height Adjustment
>
> Not a good thing.
In article <[email protected]>, Bob G
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Well Uncle Jessie and Steve have their opinions and I sure as the
> devil will not try to change them...
Always remember, opinions are like a**holes. Everyone has one and they
usually stink! <VBG>
I own both Craftsman and numerous other manufacturer's tools. Some with
moving parts and some without. There are very few that I have been
dissatisfied with, and they were usually the manufacturer's bottom end
tools.
Joe
aka 10x
Well said~! Not everyone has a particular NEED for high $ production quality
tools. Some are on limited budgets. Others may only need a particular tool
very infrequently. So there's little need to bash someone else's choice when
it differs from what they have. Unless they absolutely HAVE to do it as a
compensatory mechanism for their lack of something....
100 years ago, when electric machinery wasn't all the rage people got by
just fine....witness the woodworking that exists today that relied upon hand
tools. And ANY of today's machinery tools are much improved. So the runout
on your tool is .0002 less than mine ....BFD!
bill
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Through MY OWN experience, I have concluded that the quality of modern
> Craftsman tools is very inconsistent at best and I now avoid them.
> That's my choice. Having admitted that, I couldn't figure out why these
> unsolicited disparaging remarks and the "Crapsman" epithet always rub
> me the wrong way, until now.
>
> It's rude. Simple as that.
>
> Most of us on this forum are essentially strangers, even though we
> share a meaningful connection through this hobby/profession of ours.
> How many of us would walk into a stranger's shop and point to his
> equipment and say "That's a POS"? Most of us would never do such a
> thing.
>
> There are a lot of folks on the wreck who for a variety of reasons own
> and use one or more Craftsman tools. One of these reasons may be that
> it's what they have and they don't have the free funds to replace it. I
> contend that gratuitous bashing of Craftsman (or any brand) amounts to
> pointing and laughing at people who we don't know well, and to whom we
> should extend a higher level of courtesy.
>
> By describing the bashing as "gratuitous" I am distinguishing it from
> the honest, fact-based, and well intentioned sharing of opinions that
> also goes on here. Hey, some may want to call LROD a tool snob, but
> facts are facts. Like me and others, his opinion about Craftsman is
> based on personal experience.
>
> Just my two cents...
> Tom
>
Here's the key to Craftsman tools, Sportsfans:
"If'n it ain't a wrench - don't buy the sumbitch.
See that, simple as pi.
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 19:16:09 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>(Top Posted and not one damned bit snipped)
>
>I told you fellas that you was gonna get Uncle Jessie fired up with
>all this foolishness, and such.
>
>Now see what ya gone and done?
>
>
>watson - who can only say, "Once a Duke, Always a Duke".
>
>
>and thet ain't no bullljivin', sonnyjim.
>
>
>On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:48:15 -0600, Uncle Jessie And Don't You Forget
>It!!! <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Oh great! Another sandlefoot with some whiny crap about
>>Craftsman. You and all your rubberneck friends wouldn't
>>know fine tools if each and every one of them came up and
>>whacked you in the face. Maybe that's your problem. You
>>don't know which end of the tool to use and which way to
>>swing it?
>>
>>Some of you sandbaskets really need to get out to the shop
>>and get working on something that would make Uncle Jessy
>>proud, something that would give him the proper cause to
>>slide his thumbs in behind his suspenders and say, "Wee
>>Doggies!" and I'm not talking about another one of your Norm
>>inspired basket weave router tables I'm talking about
>>something that can only be made with your Craftsman tools.
>>
>>Why there was once a day when all you needed was a shop full
>>of Craftsman tools and IQ higher than a grapefruit,
>>something you slow paced clown college rejects can only
>>aspire to and you could do anything. Now you knob polishers
>>can't stop wimpering until the tops on your Unisaws are
>>perfectly flat. Uncle Jessy just shakes his head in
>>disgust. What you all need is a Craftsman table saw from
>>the 80's, the ones that real craftsmen use, the one with
>>Uncle Jessy's stamp of approval.
>>
>>Speaking of stamps, I think it's just about time one or two
>>of you maybe took up collecting the things. Then you
>>wouldn't be here making total ignoramuses of yourselves with
>>all your, "my Craftsman tools ruined my project". Well
>>guess what, you couldn't get a boo-hoo out of Uncle Jessy if
>>it was Halloween and you were telling Knock Knock jokes.
>>
>>You disgust Uncle Jessy and tarnish everything that's good
>>about this country. See ya later sand butts. Knock
>>yourselves out.
>>
>>Uncle Jessy
>>
>>p.s. I love Uncle Jessy and don't mess with the Dukes! I
>>mean it.
>>
>>Git 'er done!
>
>Thomas J. Watson - WoodDorker
>
>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
Thomas J. Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:31:29 -0600, Hoyt Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> if they have no moving parts !
Um, OK, and your point is?
Well Uncle Jessie and Steve have their opinions and I sure as the
devil will not try to change them...
I purchased my original "set of powertools" over a 4to 5 year time
frame from Sears in the late 60's early 70's...
Today I still use the following...
1. RAS....works fine as a cout off saw...has not moved off a 90 degree
cut in 25 to 30 years...but it can cross cut accurate enough for my
uses...not covered by the recall but worth more then the 100 bucks
they would give me for it...
2. Lathe.... this thing is not all that great..lucky for me that I do
not do a lot of turning..if I did I would junk it in a hurry
3. Stationary 6in belt and 9 in disc sander... well it still works
just fine...belt tracks right on...but I have not had a disc glues on
in years..
4. 12 in Band Saw... not really a bad saw...does what I want but I
have gotten the bug to do some resawing that exceeds its limits..so It
will be replaced in the very near future...
5. Floor model drill press... Sorry but this thing has been a
workhorse and I would not trade it even up for a brand new Delta
or Jet ... Its a keeper without doubt
Wow...I did not realize that I had so many Craftman tools still in the
shop... I do NOT use the RAS nor the Lathe much...but the others I use
almost daily...
Does this mean I would buy another Craftsman power tool..
Heck No... too many much better tools on the market at better prices
and that do a better job ...
Remember the newest of my tools are now 30 to 35 years old and all
seem to be built a little "tougher" then the new ones "look" to be..
I say look to be because I just never stop and look as I walk past the
Tool department at Sears...heck I do not even walk into the store all
that much...
Bob Griffiths
snip
> There are two kinds of wooddorkers: those who have bought Craftsman
> power tools and learned from the experience that there are much better
> choices, and those who have bought Craftsman power tools and never get
> it.
>
Most any Craftsman tool functions better, has higher quality and has a far
better warranty coverage/support than anything sold by Harbor Freight.
Dave
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snip
Dave said:
>>Most any Craftsman tool functions better, has higher quality and has a far
>>better warranty coverage/support than anything sold by Harbor Freight.
>
>Larry Jaques said:
> THAT, sir, is disputable.
>
Go ahead - dispute it. The real downside is that you'll have to shop at HF
to do so.
As for me, I'll pass.
Dave
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>> Teamcasa wrote:
>> Most any Craftsman tool functions better, has higher quality and has a
>> far
>> better warranty coverage/support than anything sold by Harbor Freight.
> "Duane Bozarth"
> Man, what an endorsement...I'm sure K-Mart management will be after you
> to head their new ad campaign! :)
Not a chance. Unless, of course, the money was right! The only Craftsman
tool I have is an old RAS and after much re-working it cuts perfectly.
Would I buy a new one from them, nope. I would say that most of their tools
would be fine for the hobbyist or occasional user and a far step better than
Larry's Harbor Freight junk.
As a professional mechanic (for 25 years), their hand tools did not hold up,
I still own every Snap-On tool I ever purchased.
Dave
An affirmed tooloholic.
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"Larry Jaques"
> I've had better luck with HF than Searz.
Like what for example?
Dave
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> Larry Jaques said
> When I first started shopping HF nearly 30 years ago, I got some
> real loser items. But once I learned to distinguish super low quality
> tools and stopped buying those there, I've had only one or two
> returns. Searz, OTOH, was visited daily by me in the late 70s when
> I was using their tools professionally (or attempting to use crappy
> tools professionally) while being employed as an auto mechanic because
> their tools kept breaking.
>
Larry , I learned in 10 minutes that Craftsman tools would not hold up to
the daily use required by the professional mechanic. That's why Snap-On,
Mac & Mattco tools are sold directly to mechanics. Are you telling me, as a
professional mechanic past or present, that Harbor Freight makes better
tools than Craftsman? Nonsense. Craftsman tools don't measure up to the
standard required by the professional, and by the way, the Sears guarantee
expressly excludes professional use, but they are far better than any junk
sold at HF.
Dave
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snip
> scale of 1-10
>
> Harbor Freight ....2
> Craftsman ........ 7
> Snap On 10
>
> Bob Griffiths
Other than giving HF benefit of a 2, I agree.
Dave
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(Top Posted and not one damned bit snipped)
I told you fellas that you was gonna get Uncle Jessie fired up with
all this foolishness, and such.
Now see what ya gone and done?
watson - who can only say, "Once a Duke, Always a Duke".
and thet ain't no bullljivin', sonnyjim.
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:48:15 -0600, Uncle Jessie And Don't You Forget
It!!! <[email protected]> wrote:
>Oh great! Another sandlefoot with some whiny crap about
>Craftsman. You and all your rubberneck friends wouldn't
>know fine tools if each and every one of them came up and
>whacked you in the face. Maybe that's your problem. You
>don't know which end of the tool to use and which way to
>swing it?
>
>Some of you sandbaskets really need to get out to the shop
>and get working on something that would make Uncle Jessy
>proud, something that would give him the proper cause to
>slide his thumbs in behind his suspenders and say, "Wee
>Doggies!" and I'm not talking about another one of your Norm
>inspired basket weave router tables I'm talking about
>something that can only be made with your Craftsman tools.
>
>Why there was once a day when all you needed was a shop full
>of Craftsman tools and IQ higher than a grapefruit,
>something you slow paced clown college rejects can only
>aspire to and you could do anything. Now you knob polishers
>can't stop wimpering until the tops on your Unisaws are
>perfectly flat. Uncle Jessy just shakes his head in
>disgust. What you all need is a Craftsman table saw from
>the 80's, the ones that real craftsmen use, the one with
>Uncle Jessy's stamp of approval.
>
>Speaking of stamps, I think it's just about time one or two
>of you maybe took up collecting the things. Then you
>wouldn't be here making total ignoramuses of yourselves with
>all your, "my Craftsman tools ruined my project". Well
>guess what, you couldn't get a boo-hoo out of Uncle Jessy if
>it was Halloween and you were telling Knock Knock jokes.
>
>You disgust Uncle Jessy and tarnish everything that's good
>about this country. See ya later sand butts. Knock
>yourselves out.
>
>Uncle Jessy
>
>p.s. I love Uncle Jessy and don't mess with the Dukes! I
>mean it.
>
>Git 'er done!
Thomas J. Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
"Mark Cooper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1110426487.2884732748ac7cd1adb8ec7a886e701a@teranews...
> Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "ARHA" feature?
I don't recall the exact words but something like, Automatic bit adjustment
while it is running, ready or not, feature.
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:43:08 -0800, the inscrutable "TeamCasa"
<[email protected]> spake:
>> Larry Jaques said
>> When I first started shopping HF nearly 30 years ago, I got some
>> real loser items. But once I learned to distinguish super low quality
>> tools and stopped buying those there, I've had only one or two
>> returns. Searz, OTOH, was visited daily by me in the late 70s when
>> I was using their tools professionally (or attempting to use crappy
>> tools professionally) while being employed as an auto mechanic because
>> their tools kept breaking.
>>
>
>Larry , I learned in 10 minutes that Craftsman tools would not hold up to
>the daily use required by the professional mechanic. That's why Snap-On,
>Mac & Mattco tools are sold directly to mechanics. Are you telling me, as a
>professional mechanic past or present, that Harbor Freight makes better
>tools than Craftsman? Nonsense. Craftsman tools don't measure up to the
>standard required by the professional, and by the way, the Sears guarantee
>expressly excludes professional use, but they are far better than any junk
>sold at HF.
I'm saying that after using both stores' tools for 30 years, I have
had to return far, far more to Searz than I have to HF, and that
includes a few HF tools which were tossed for being useless. My
statement that I've had better luck with HF than Searz is the honest
to gods truth.
--
Life's a Frisbee: When you die, your soul goes up on the roof.
----
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
>They're not, unless they're rebadged versions of what you called "high
>end" in another post. I've never owned a Craftsman tool, that was
>_less money_ than the competition, that was any good. The Craftsman
>power tools that were serviceable were either the same price or more
>expensive than examples from Bosch, Porter Cable, Makita, DeWalt,
>etc...
>
>It's really NOT about status, most brand name tools actually do
>perform better.
I'll second that. The only non-name brand tools I've got were gifts
from the wife, and I'm replacing them all. The DeWalt stuff I've got
has never caused me a second's worth of grief- even the cordless drill
is still going strong after 4 years of heavy use on the batteries,
repeated use out in the elements, some pretty impressive falls off a
ladder into the driveway, heavy saturation with drywall dust and even
the occasional dousing with muddy water. I'd be willing to bet the
other name-brands are just as good, but I wouldn't spend another dime
on cheap knock-offs that are "for the home handyman". Too many of my
just-about-finished projects have been destroyed by inferior tools
breaking on the final cut.
>Barry (Who fits cleanly into LRod's "Had Craftsman and moved on"
>category)
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:25:17 -0600, the inscrutable Duane Bozarth
<[email protected]> spake:
>Teamcasa wrote:
>>
>...
>> Most any Craftsman tool functions better, has higher quality and has a far
>> better warranty coverage/support than anything sold by Harbor Freight.
>
>Man, what an endorsement...I'm sure K-Mart management will be after you
>to head their new ad campaign! :)
Especially since, AFAIC (and I've BTDT), it's not even -true-.
==========================================================
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Mark Cooper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1110426487.2884732748ac7cd1adb8ec7a886e701a@teranews...
>> Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "ARHA" feature?
>
> I don't recall the exact words but something like, Automatic bit
> adjustment while it is running, ready or not, feature.
Automatic (or Autonomous) Router Height Adjustment
Not a good thing.
OK. LROD... LOL Do you not get it? Bosch is building the red outer that
looks like the Bosch 1617EVS. Dewalt did or still builds the black and
silver plate joiner, and Dewalt did build the drills.
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:51:19 -0800, Steve <Steve> wrote:
>
>>Let's see--I have the following Craftsman tools WITH moving parts:
>
> [extensive list of wasted money snipped]
>
>>In short, I take exception to Hoyt's implication that Craftsman power
>>tools aren't any good.
>
> There are two kinds of wooddorkers: those who have bought Craftsman
> power tools and learned from the experience that there are much better
> choices, and those who have bought Craftsman power tools and never get
> it.
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:10:06 -0800, the inscrutable "Teamcasa"
<[email protected]> spake:
>"Larry Jaques"
>> I've had better luck with HF than Searz.
>
>Like what for example?
Google my name and sears/crapsman/craftsman for the whole ugly
stories.
When I first started shopping HF nearly 30 years ago, I got some
real loser items. But once I learned to distinguish super low quality
tools and stopped buying those there, I've had only one or two
returns. Searz, OTOH, was visited daily by me in the late 70s when
I was using their tools professionally (or attempting to use crappy
tools professionally) while being employed as an auto mechanic because
their tools kept breaking.
==========================================================
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:27:28 -0800, the inscrutable "TeamCasa"
<[email protected]> spake:
>snip
>Dave said:
>>>Most any Craftsman tool functions better, has higher quality and has a far
>>>better warranty coverage/support than anything sold by Harbor Freight.
>>
>>Larry Jaques said:
>> THAT, sir, is disputable.
>>
>Go ahead - dispute it. The real downside is that you'll have to shop at HF
>to do so.
>As for me, I'll pass.
I've had better luck with HF than Searz.
==========================================================
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:17:45 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>OK. LROD... LOL Do you not get it? Bosch is building the red outer that
>looks like the Bosch 1617EVS. Dewalt did or still builds the black and
>silver plate joiner, and Dewalt did build the drills.
Well, that may be, but I have my own list:
1960s era 10" table saw. Original fence was a POS. I replaced it with
a '90s Sears fence. Much better, but no Bies. Overall, usable, but
just no comparison to my Uni.
1960s era jigsaw, er scrollsaw they call them now. POS. Oil filled
crank shaft got oil on everything within 3'.
1972 saber saw, er, jigsaw they call them now. POS. Cranking down on
one of the two screws to hold the blade (and you had to) cracked the
casting. Couldn't make a square cut. No comparison to my Bosch.
1972 RAS. Okay, but no DeWalt and won't stay in alignment past a
couple of bumps.
1972 belt sander. POS. Can't wait to replace it--just as soon as I
have a need for a belt sander.
1972 router. The mother of all POS. It's when I discovered the ARHA
"feature.".
1972 drill press. Usable, but developed a vertical slop in the quill
that I cannot fix. No comparison to my Delta.
1974 bandsaw. Underpowered, underweight, undersized. No comparison to
my Delta.
1975 jointer. POS never would line up right. You could make the infeed
table coplanar with the outfeed, OR you could raise and lower the
infeed table, but you couldn't do both. Need I say DJ20?
1980 lathe. Odd size Morse tapers and spindle thread. No comparison to
my Delta.
Last summer my S-I-L bought one of their routers (Ryobi POS). Guess
what? ARHA. I gave him a P-C 690 for Christmas.
That's 0 for 10 or 11 depending on how you score my S-I-L's router.
You don't have to hit me over the head with a 2x4. I absolutely do get
it. The lathe is the last Sears tool I will EVER buy; I don't care who
makes them. I don't even trust that if Bosch makes their jigsaw it's
the same jigsaw as Bosch's jigsaw.
One may ask, "why did you buy so many Sears tools if they were POS?"
It's more or less a fair question, but basically back in the '70s
there weren't any places to buy Deltas or Powermatics. Or not that I
was aware of. Schools and professionals had them, but not us garage
'dorkers. And they commanded more of a premium over the Sears than
they do today.
Shoot, because there was no Norm or Boob or David J. we average DIY
guys hardly even knew those tools existed. We couldn't ask Jon Eakes.
There was no Scott Phillips, no Ron Hazelton, no David Thiel. There
was no Jet, no Chiwanese tools, no Harbor Freight (thank god). A lot
of you guys don't realize how good we have it nowadays compared to
then.
I don't even give the hand tools a pass anymore. Go to the borg and
buy a Klein #2 Phillips screwdriver. Use it hard for a week. Then go
get a Sears and use it hard for an hour. That's all it'll take. The
wrenches are okay, but don't be convinced by the warranty. When Ace
Hardware started warranting their Master Mechanic line of wrenches
with the same warranty back in the '90s I figured it out. It's an
actuarial thing, not a measure of tool quality. Just like rebates.
Practically everyone warrants their wrenches for life, now.
Want to call me a tool snob? Go ahead. I wear that tag proudly. I've
used low end and I've used high end. I may not be able to do better
work with the high end, but I do easier work since I'm not fighting
the tool, and if you don't understand what the simple pleasure of
using a good tool adds to the project there's no explaining it to you.
And probably no point in you buying the tools I buy.
Life is too short for third rate tools. Although in all fairness, I
guess I should acknowledge that if I hadn't wallowed in so much
Craftsman I may never have truly appreciated my Deltas, Makitas,
Bosches, Porter-Cables, Milwaukees, Kleins, etc. when I got them. But
if I could keep just one person from having to learn that lesson the
way I did...
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:15:02 -0800, the inscrutable "Teamcasa"
<[email protected]> spake:
>snip
>> There are two kinds of wooddorkers: those who have bought Craftsman
>> power tools and learned from the experience that there are much better
>> choices, and those who have bought Craftsman power tools and never get
>> it.
>>
>Most any Craftsman tool functions better, has higher quality and has a far
>better warranty coverage/support than anything sold by Harbor Freight.
THAT, sir, is disputable.
==========================================================
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming
Nope....3 kinds...you left out the most obvious denizens of this forum...the
TOOL SNOB.
bill
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:51:19 -0800, Steve <Steve> wrote:
>
>>Let's see--I have the following Craftsman tools WITH moving parts:
>
> [extensive list of wasted money snipped]
>
>>In short, I take exception to Hoyt's implication that Craftsman power
>>tools aren't any good.
>
> There are two kinds of wooddorkers: those who have bought Craftsman
> power tools and learned from the experience that there are much better
> choices, and those who have bought Craftsman power tools and never get
> it.
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:07:37 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>LOL That's what I call BAD luck... I only have 2 Craftsman tools left to
>get rid of.
Yabbut, it's not "luck." That's the point.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
>
>I'm saying that after using both stores' tools for 30 years, I have
>had to return far, far more to Searz than I have to HF, and that
>includes a few HF tools which were tossed for being useless. My
>statement that I've had better luck with HF than Searz is the honest
>to gods truth.
=============
No reason to doubt your experience...I just would not place any bets
on the average "shade tree mechanic' haveing similar "luck"
I am not a professional mechanic...(too slow)...But I am a guy now in
his 60's who has restored more then a few cars over the years AND have
2 grown sons who could not keep their hands out of my tool
chests..once they were old enought to "try" to work on their own
"wheels"
My Quick solution was to lock my tool chest and fill a second tool
chest with wrenches etc from HF.... Chicago/or Pittsburg brands I
believe... .
Sorry but Those HF wrenches were close to being classified as
disposibles... they served my purpose as I usually ended up
doing the work anyway...with my tools...
To be truthful my toolchest is filled with mostly Craftsman tools
BUT all my Impact , line & crow foot wrenches, are Snap -on
scale of 1-10
Harbor Freight ....2
Craftsman ........ 7
Snap On 10
Bob Griffiths
> This router, BTW, while suitable for light -duty work, was not up to the
> heavy load I put on it, and that's why I bought the new one at Christmas
> (the Craftsman Pro/Bosch). It cuts deeper and smoother than the old one
> ever did, and it seems to do it effortlessly, with the same bits. 50%
> more power and a nice rigid aluminum motor housing make quite a difference
> in how a router behaves. Very happy with it so far.
>
> Not sure what to do with the old one--any suggestions?
Assign it to light duty. Put a round-over bit in it and leave it there.
Keep it handy and just grab it when you need to ease an edge. Don't put any
bit that pulls out, like a dovetail, in it.
Steve
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:31:29 -0600, Hoyt Weathers <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>
>
> if they have no moving parts !
You best be havin' yer head on a swivel, keepin' a lookout fer Uncle
Jessie.
Thomas J. Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
So far I only have bought a Pittsburg Professional duo-metric impact
socket set from HF, but I have a friend who buys all his grinders and
drills and cement mixers at HF - and it's all crap!
I still buy Craftsman hand tools at Sears, and I have bought some name
brand tools at Sears - I got a great deal on a Milwaukee hammer drill
and a Porter-Cable circular saw. I won't buy tools made in China
anymore, which leaves almost the entire Craftsman power tool line
untouchable. I will buy Craftsman tools - hand tools and power tool
accessories - that are made in America. I still have a 3/8" Craftsman
drill that is 25 years old and runs great.
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:10:06 -0800, the inscrutable "Teamcasa"
> <[email protected]> spake:
>
>
>>"Larry Jaques"
>>
>>>I've had better luck with HF than Searz.
>>
>>Like what for example?
>
>
> Google my name and sears/crapsman/craftsman for the whole ugly
> stories.
>
> When I first started shopping HF nearly 30 years ago, I got some
> real loser items. But once I learned to distinguish super low quality
> tools and stopped buying those there, I've had only one or two
> returns. Searz, OTOH, was visited daily by me in the late 70s when
> I was using their tools professionally (or attempting to use crappy
> tools professionally) while being employed as an auto mechanic because
> their tools kept breaking.
>
>
> ==========================================================
> I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
> --Socrates + Web Application Programming
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:03:28 GMT, Unisaw A-100 <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Patriarch wrote:
>>Automatic (or Autonomous) Router Height Adjustment
>
>Actually, it's Automatic Random Height Adjustment. Note the
>"random" part.
Yes. It's the "random" that's the killer.
> Oh yeah, tm Steve Wallace, the guy who
>coined the initialization.
Thanks. I wondered who did. Sadly, I instantly knew what it meant the
first time I heard it.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:51:19 -0800, Steve <Steve> wrote:
>Let's see--I have the following Craftsman tools WITH moving parts:
[extensive list of wasted money snipped]
>In short, I take exception to Hoyt's implication that Craftsman power
>tools aren't any good.
There are two kinds of wooddorkers: those who have bought Craftsman
power tools and learned from the experience that there are much better
choices, and those who have bought Craftsman power tools and never get
it.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
If they satisfy you, and you think they are great, ignore all the other
responses. But there are other manufactureres. I have a number of
Craftsman tools; some are good, others could be better. Applies to Delta
and DeWalt too.
Steve
<Steve> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Let's see--I have the following Craftsman tools WITH moving parts:
>
> 1) 9" RAS - purchased in 1973 and still going strong
> 2) 10" table saw - almost a year old, and it works great
> 3) 3/8 corded variable reversible drill - about 18 years old & still
> works & looks like it's new. It replaced the Craftsman Type 1
> drill I bought in '73 that was stolen in '86.
> 4) Fancy ROS - works great
> 5) 13.2V Cordless drill - works great after almost 2 years
> 6) Scroll saw - at least 25 years old, still going strong
> 7) 7-1/4" circular saw - about 18 years old, still works great.
> Replaced another Craftman tool that was stolen.
> 8) Electric staple gun - works great after 25 years, could use a
> new power cord
> 9) Craftsman Pro Fixed/Plunge router kit - 3 months old and the BEST
> router I've ever owned
> 10) Fixed router - 15 years old, still works good.
> 11) 4 x 21" belt sander - about 15 years old--still works good.
>
> I got the new Craftsman Pro router because I wanted more power (2-1/4 HP
> vs the 1.5 HP the old one has, and the new one will take 1/2" bits as well
> as 1/4"
>
> In short, I take exception to Hoyt's implication that Craftsman power
> tools aren't any good.
>
> --Steve
>
> Hoyt Weathers wrote:
>
>> if they have no moving parts !
RAS, 1972, Good. Used for everything under the sun, even firewood when I
bought slabs as a poor student. Maybe I should say impecunious student.
Small metal router, 1980, Excellent
Plastic router, 1990, so so.
TS, 1972, Good. Fence fair minus, but usable with a little care. Ripping
only.
TS, 1968, Very good. Fence bad, but used for crooscut only, so not an
issue.
Two big angle grinders, 1975, Good.
Sabre saw, 1975, OK.
Bandsaw, old, used, Excellent.
Planer, used, Very good, but a little short in the bed. Works fine.
Standup drillpress, 1999, Very good.
What they need is some tool people who can keep the quality consistent.
I've seen the junk, but there's lots of good too. Both these TS are very
square and have almost immeasureable runout.
Wilson
"Hoyt Weathers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> if they have no moving parts !
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:51:19 -0800, Steve <Steve> wrote:
>9) Craftsman Pro Fixed/Plunge router kit - 3 months old and the BEST
> router I've ever owned
This is actually a Bosch tool. <G> The Bosch version, known as the
1617EVS is subject to market price competition, the Craftsman version
isn't.
This is the router I'm referring to:
<http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_SessionID=@@@@0689633758.1110400247@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccheaddedgkhmldcehgcemgdffmdflk.0&vertical=TOOL&fromAuto=YES&bidsite=CRAFT&pid=00926620000>
and the genuine Bosch version:
<http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/bosc/1617evspk.htm?E+coastest>
Notice that freebies Coastal includes make the Bosch version cheaper
than the incomparable and non-price matchable Craftsman version.
>
>In short, I take exception to Hoyt's implication that Craftsman power
>tools aren't any good.
They're not, unless they're rebadged versions of what you called "high
end" in another post. I've never owned a Craftsman tool, that was
_less money_ than the competition, that was any good. The Craftsman
power tools that were serviceable were either the same price or more
expensive than examples from Bosch, Porter Cable, Makita, DeWalt,
etc...
It's really NOT about status, most brand name tools actually do
perform better.
Barry (Who fits cleanly into LRod's "Had Craftsman and moved on"
category)
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:17:45 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>OK. LROD... LOL Do you not get it? Bosch is building the red outer that
>>looks like the Bosch 1617EVS. Dewalt did or still builds the black and
>>silver plate joiner, and Dewalt did build the drills.
>
> Well, that may be, but I have my own list:
>
> 1960s era 10" table saw. Original fence was a POS. I replaced it with
> a '90s Sears fence. Much better, but no Bies. Overall, usable, but
> just no comparison to my Uni.
> 1960s era jigsaw, er scrollsaw they call them now. POS. Oil filled
> crank shaft got oil on everything within 3'.
> 1972 saber saw, er, jigsaw they call them now. POS. Cranking down on
> one of the two screws to hold the blade (and you had to) cracked the
> casting. Couldn't make a square cut. No comparison to my Bosch.
> 1972 RAS. Okay, but no DeWalt and won't stay in alignment past a
> couple of bumps.
> 1972 belt sander. POS. Can't wait to replace it--just as soon as I
> have a need for a belt sander.
> 1972 router. The mother of all POS. It's when I discovered the ARHA
> "feature.".
> 1972 drill press. Usable, but developed a vertical slop in the quill
> that I cannot fix. No comparison to my Delta.
> 1974 bandsaw. Underpowered, underweight, undersized. No comparison to
> my Delta.
> 1975 jointer. POS never would line up right. You could make the infeed
> table coplanar with the outfeed, OR you could raise and lower the
> infeed table, but you couldn't do both. Need I say DJ20?
> 1980 lathe. Odd size Morse tapers and spindle thread. No comparison to
> my Delta.
LOL That's what I call BAD luck... I only have 2 Craftsman tools left to
get rid of.
Oh great! Another sandlefoot with some whiny crap about
Craftsman. You and all your rubberneck friends wouldn't
know fine tools if each and every one of them came up and
whacked you in the face. Maybe that's your problem. You
don't know which end of the tool to use and which way to
swing it?
Some of you sandbaskets really need to get out to the shop
and get working on something that would make Uncle Jessy
proud, something that would give him the proper cause to
slide his thumbs in behind his suspenders and say, "Wee
Doggies!" and I'm not talking about another one of your Norm
inspired basket weave router tables I'm talking about
something that can only be made with your Craftsman tools.
Why there was once a day when all you needed was a shop full
of Craftsman tools and IQ higher than a grapefruit,
something you slow paced clown college rejects can only
aspire to and you could do anything. Now you knob polishers
can't stop wimpering until the tops on your Unisaws are
perfectly flat. Uncle Jessy just shakes his head in
disgust. What you all need is a Craftsman table saw from
the 80's, the ones that real craftsmen use, the one with
Uncle Jessy's stamp of approval.
Speaking of stamps, I think it's just about time one or two
of you maybe took up collecting the things. Then you
wouldn't be here making total ignoramuses of yourselves with
all your, "my Craftsman tools ruined my project". Well
guess what, you couldn't get a boo-hoo out of Uncle Jessy if
it was Halloween and you were telling Knock Knock jokes.
You disgust Uncle Jessy and tarnish everything that's good
about this country. See ya later sand butts. Knock
yourselves out.
Uncle Jessy
p.s. I love Uncle Jessy and don't mess with the Dukes! I
mean it.
Git 'er done!