In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I connect ev=
erything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp (120VAC)circuits with=
12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI outlet and then a chain of=
normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had this a =
few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off less tha=
t 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this might be t=
he GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit. Same proble=
m. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which is on a sepa=
rate 240VAC circuit. =20
The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6' from th=
e panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the cove=
r off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I have this=
connected to my DC.
I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's worth=
of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a piece of the=
leftover maple.
Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit breake=
r? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought the jo=
inter new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
Thanks,
Bill Leonhardt
On 10/15/2013 12:41 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:
> On 10/14/2013 7:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I
>> connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp
>> (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI
>> outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>>
>> On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had
>> this a few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
>>
>> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off
>> less that 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking
>> this might be the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second
>> circuit. Same problem. The only other piece of equipment running was
>> the DC which is on a separate 240VAC circuit.
>>
>> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6'
>> from the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
>>
>> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the
>> cover off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I
>> have this connected to my DC.
>>
>> I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's
>> worth of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a
>> piece of the leftover maple.
>>
>> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit
>> breaker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I
>> bought the jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bill Leonhardt
>>
> I'm wondering if the same reason a GFI is not used on a fridge circuit,
> is the same reason it should not be used in shops for other motors (a
> compressor at its guts is a motor), not for the food spoilage, but more
> because of possible leakage.
>
So for what it's worth all my tools are on gfci's.
Compressor, tablesaw, drill press, bandsaw, jointer, 2 stationary
sanders, planer, router table, shop vacs.
Nothing pops the gfci. Occasionaly I pop a ckt breaker when starting the
ts..
I think the refrig is to prevent lost food, and spoiling.
But our hardware should be sound... and it is better to have it, than
not. Long ago they didn't have them... I'm sure there were occaisonal
electrocutions. I have been to many garage sales, I can't believe how
some guys keep their equip or work with frayed wires or just not well
maintained cords/boxes,switches. A gfci is cheap insurance.
--
Jeff
Update on my GFI issue. Recap: Jointer kept popping GFI outlet. Got lots=
of good advice here but life got in the way and I wasn't able to resolve t=
he problem until after Christmas.
I pulled the motor out of the unit. I cleaned it but it actually had very =
little dust buildup. I connected it (without the original switch) to a GFI=
circuit and it ran without any problem.
I then took the switch apart. It was set up so it broke the connection of =
both the black wire and white wire. I bought the jointer set up for 120 VA=
C and ran it that way but I guess the switch was wired that way so you coul=
d re-wire for 240 VAC. The switch had two contactors (one for each wire) t=
hat looked like the points I used to have in my car back when I understood =
how to work on my car. They were both in bad shape. I filed and sanded th=
e contacts with the intention of reusing the switch but, when I attempted t=
o reassemble the switch, I broke it enough to make repair impractical. Thu=
s I replaced the original switch with this one (actually, the same switch m=
anufacturer):
http://www.grizzly.com/products/H8243
After a little extra work (switch didn't fit in a standard electrical box j=
ust as the reviews warned), I was back in business.
Bottom-line: The old switch caused the GFI outlet to pop.
Thanks again for all the input from the "rec",
Bill Leonhardt
On Monday, October 14, 2013 7:50:23 PM UTC-4, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I connect =
everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp (120VAC)circuits wi=
th 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI outlet and then a chain =
of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had this =
a few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off less t=
hat 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this might be=
the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit. Same prob=
lem. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which is on a se=
parate 240VAC circuit. =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6' from =
the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the co=
ver off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I have th=
is connected to my DC.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's wor=
th of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a piece of t=
he leftover maple.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit brea=
ker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought the =
jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Bill Leonhardt
On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:38:35 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>
>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped right away.
>>
>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>>
>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>
>> Here's my plan.
>>
>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>>
>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>>
>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line (non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.
>
>To those "in the know". If there is "leakage" like this, does it mean
>that their might be risk of shock to the user or fire (from
>overheating?). Just curious.
Highly unlikely, though possible. Older GFCIs weren't very good at
rejecting stray (capacitive or inductive) current paths. The
possibility of false trips with these is high. This is why there were
exceptions in the NEC for refrigerators/freezers. Replace the GFCI and
see if your problem goes away. If it does, then you had nothing to
worry about. ;-)
>I've already picked up a new question I've saving for I look at used
>equipment for sale: "Yes, But will it run on a GFCI-protected circuit?" : )
With a new GFCI, there should be fewer problems. ...and those are
serious.
Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I
>> connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp
>> (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a
>> GFCI
>> outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>>
> ...
>
>> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off
>> less that 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking
>> this
>> might be the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second
>> circuit.
>> Same problem. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC
>> which
>> is on a separate 240VAC circuit.
>>
>> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6'
>> from the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from
>> that.
>>
>> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled
>> the cover off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either
>> since Ihave this connected to my DC.
>>
> ...
>
>> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the
>> circuit
> breaker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I
> bought
> the jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
------------------------------------------------------------------
"dpb" wrote:
> GFCIs work on the current imbalance between the two legs and trip as
> low as 5-6 mA. What this indicates is that the motor now has a
> leakage path that ends up being above the GFCI threshold--it
> probably started off at just barely under and know with some age
> there's some insulation degradation that has let it now be just over
> instead of just under.
>
> Your choices as I see it are--
>
> a) replace the GFCI w/ a different/newer one and see if goes away
> for at least a while,
>
> b) replace the motor w/ one that doesn't have the leakage current.
> It's highly unlikely you'll be able to change its characteristics
> any although despite no heavy dust buildup you might try blowing it
> out thoroughly w/ compressed air to see if internal dust could be
> contributing to the problem, or
>
> c) do away w/ the GFCIs
>
> Oh, there's no fluorescent lighting on the circuit is there?
----------------------------------------------------
I vote for "C" above.
The GFCI is a bit much in this application, IMHO.
Lew
Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>Follow-up
I have my lights (fluorescent) coming off the main house panel and all
else coming off a sub panel for the shop. That way I can lock out all
machines and outlets when I have grand kids working in the shop.
The shop is in my basement and I believe that general circuits (those
not dedicated to a specific use) are required have a GFCI.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't think so.
If you follow that logic, EVERY receptacle in the house would
require GFCI protection which obviously is not the case.
Do you have water plumbed into your shop?
If so, you may require GFCI protection if receptacle close to
a water faucet, otherwise not.
Try replacing the GFCI receptacle with an industrial grade
receptacle (5262), which you may not be able to get at HD,
but may have to get from an electrical distributor.
It will be a heavy duty, 20A receptacle, that may cost as much
as $10 for a single unit.
Lew
Forgot to add, look for a Hubbell 5262 receptacle, every electrical
counter person will recognize what you are trying to find.
Lew
----------------------------------------------------
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>
>>Follow-up
>
> I have my lights (fluorescent) coming off the main house panel and
> all else coming off a sub panel for the shop. That way I can lock
> out all machines and outlets when I have grand kids working in the
> shop.
>
> The shop is in my basement and I believe that general circuits
> (those not dedicated to a specific use) are required have a GFCI.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Don't think so.
>
> If you follow that logic, EVERY receptacle in the house would
> require GFCI protection which obviously is not the case.
>
> Do you have water plumbed into your shop?
>
> If so, you may require GFCI protection if receptacle close to
> a water faucet, otherwise not.
>
> Try replacing the GFCI receptacle with an industrial grade
> receptacle (5262), which you may not be able to get at HD,
> but may have to get from an electrical distributor.
>
> It will be a heavy duty, 20A receptacle, that may cost as much
> as $10 for a single unit.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"Bill Leonhardt" wrote:
OK this is an update on my issue:
Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original
circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4
minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped
right away.
At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said
that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or
work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I
have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit
and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).
Here's my plan.
1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to
because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I
want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line
(non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.
I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
----------------------------------------------------------
Based on the above, the first thing I would do is verify whether motor
can be wired for 240V.
If so, problem is solved.
Rewire and move on.
If not, then assuming you don't already have one, get a 50 ft, 10-3
molded cord set and use it to plug jointer into non GFCI receptacle
and get on with life.
Why a 10-3 rather than a less expensive 12-3?
Less voltage drop at the motor terminals.
Last choice would be to replace GFCI receptacle.
BTW, a coat of paint on the walls could be called "Finished" in some
parts of the country.
Have fun.
Lew
On 10/16/2013 06:19 PM, Bill wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>> On 10/16/2013 11:25 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "Bill Leonhardt" wrote:
>>>
>>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>>
>>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original
>>> circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4
>>> minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped
>>> right away.
>>>
>>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said
>>> that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or
>>> work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I
>>> have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>>>
>> Not true. A finished basement needs gfci too. I had put them in, and
>> when inspected we talked about them, they had to be on each ckt.
>
> You can also buy a GFCI circuit breaker for about $90, or so--which may
> outweigh installing multiple GFCI duplex outlets--your call.
> It would depend on how many you have, I guess.
>
>
>>
>>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit
>>> and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>>
>>> Here's my plan.
>>>
>>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to
>>> because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I
>>> want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>>>
>>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>>>
>>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line
>>> (non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.
>>>
>>> I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> Based on the above, the first thing I would do is verify whether motor
>>> can be wired for 240V.
>>>
>>> If so, problem is solved.
>>>
>>> Rewire and move on.
>>>
>>> If not, then assuming you don't already have one, get a 50 ft, 10-3
>>> molded cord set and use it to plug jointer into non GFCI receptacle
>>> and get on with life.
>>>
>>> Why a 10-3 rather than a less expensive 12-3?
>>>
>>> Less voltage drop at the motor terminals.
>>>
>>> Last choice would be to replace GFCI receptacle.
>>>
>>> BTW, a coat of paint on the walls could be called "Finished" in some
>>> parts of the country.
>>>
>>> Have fun.
>>>
>>> Lew
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
You only need one GFCI up stream from the rest of the outlets - just
like a GFCI breaker for the entire circuit. No need for GFCIs on each
outlet.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
"Larry Blanchard" wrote:
> Oh, this is number one and the fun has just begun ...
------------------------------------------
Roll me over, lay me down and do it again.....
Lew
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Or: Roll her over in the clover, do it again."
----------------------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/mkxsdqn
Lew
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 12:55:50 -0700 (PDT), Bill Leonhardt
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Hello All,
>
>I am the OP (if that means original poster). I very much appreciate all the follow-up. I too am concerned as to why this happens.
>
>I need the weekend to pull the motor and have a look. Some additional info on my set-up:
>
>1. The jointer is plugged into a string of outlets I have mounted on the first floor joists. I am in the basement so the outlets are overhead.
>
>2. The power cord has a molded in plug.
>
>3. The power cord runs straight up from the jointer to the outlet and is protected from abuse. It is mounted next to and in the shadow of the DC ducting.
After all the back and forth, I forgot whether you changed the GFCI.
If not, that's your next step (should have been the first).
>In conversations I have had, some folks have suggested that motors and GFCI outlets don't play together nice which is why you are warned to not plug your freezer into a GFCI outlet. OK, I accept that but I had several years without an issue.
Things fail. This wouldn't be the first time this happened.
>I sure hope that after I pull the motor and open all the covers, I something loose, or chaffed or covered with a lot of dust. That I could fix. If I find nothing, I'm not sure how to proceed.
I'd sure change the GFCI before going to that hassle. An ohmmeter
might help finding the culprit.
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 20:39:14 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>dpb wrote:
>> On 10/14/2013 6:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I
>>> connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp
>>> (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI
>>> outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>>>
>
>>
>> GFCIs work on the current imbalance between the two legs and trip as
>> low as 5-6 mA. What this indicates is that the motor now has a
>> leakage path that ends up being above the GFCI threshold--it probably
>> started off at just barely under and know with some age there's some
>> insulation degradation that has let it now be just over instead of
>> just under.
>
>Or it indicates an aging GFCI. These things do not have long life
>expectancies.
>
>>
>> Your choices as I see it are--
>>
>> a) replace the GFCI w/ a different/newer one and see if goes away for
>> at least a while,
>
>That would be my first approach.
>
>>
>> b) replace the motor w/ one that doesn't have the leakage current. It's
>> highly unlikely you'll be able to change its characteristics any
>> although despite no heavy dust buildup you might try blowing it out
>> thoroughly w/ compressed air to see if internal dust could be
>> contributing to the problem, or
>
>I find this one to be less likely.
Actually not uncommon.
OK this is an update on my issue:
Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original circuit. (=
Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the=
GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped right away.
At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said that the=
code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the ou=
tlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to do is finish=
the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit and i=
t ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load). =20
Here's my plan.
1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to becau=
se I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see=
if 220VAC is a possibility.
2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line (non-GFCI)=
to the jointer and get on with my life.
I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
Thanks for all the responses, especially since it was only marginally a WW =
topic. I love this group.=20
Bill Leonhardt
____________________________________________________________________
On Monday, October 14, 2013 7:50:23 PM UTC-4, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I connect =
everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp (120VAC)circuits wi=
th 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI outlet and then a chain =
of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had this =
a few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off less t=
hat 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this might be=
the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit. Same prob=
lem. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which is on a se=
parate 240VAC circuit. =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6' from =
the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the co=
ver off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I have th=
is connected to my DC.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's wor=
th of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a piece of t=
he leftover maple.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit brea=
ker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought the =
jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Bill Leonhardt
On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 06:28:28 -0700, jo4hn <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 10/18/2013 9:30 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 10/18/2013 11:24 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> OK, I'll help you get your mind off that image:
>>>
>>> It's a small world after all
>>> It's a small world after all
>>> It's a small world after all
>>> It's a small, small world
>>
>>
>> Thanks, but I prefer "Tiptoe, through the tulips".
>>
>> Much more power, in one line.
>>
>Now you've done it, bozo. I now have this image of Tiny Tim and his
>ukelele firmly imprinted. Grumble.
>Snort.
Tiny Tim's TipToe is like 220 to small world's 110 - more power in
the same sized package.
On 10/16/2013 11:25 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill Leonhardt" wrote:
>
> OK this is an update on my issue:
>
> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original
> circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4
> minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped
> right away.
>
> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said
> that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or
> work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I
> have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>
Not true. A finished basement needs gfci too. I had put them in, and
when inspected we talked about them, they had to be on each ckt.
> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit
> and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>
> Here's my plan.
>
> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to
> because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I
> want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>
> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>
> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line
> (non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.
>
> I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Based on the above, the first thing I would do is verify whether motor
> can be wired for 240V.
>
> If so, problem is solved.
>
> Rewire and move on.
>
> If not, then assuming you don't already have one, get a 50 ft, 10-3
> molded cord set and use it to plug jointer into non GFCI receptacle
> and get on with life.
>
> Why a 10-3 rather than a less expensive 12-3?
>
> Less voltage drop at the motor terminals.
>
> Last choice would be to replace GFCI receptacle.
>
> BTW, a coat of paint on the walls could be called "Finished" in some
> parts of the country.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
>
>
--
Jeff
On 10/18/2013 10:29 AM, Bill wrote:
> Doug, You are coming to the party late. This has been discussed all week.
Regardless, Doug is arguably one of the most informed posters here today
with regard to electrical code issues, and a good deal of
troubleshooting to boot.
Pay attention ... sometimes it is best to let the kibitzing dust settle
first. ;)
--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 10/18/2013 9:30 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/18/2013 11:24 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> OK, I'll help you get your mind off that image:
>>
>> It's a small world after all
>> It's a small world after all
>> It's a small world after all
>> It's a small, small world
>
>
> Thanks, but I prefer "Tiptoe, through the tulips".
>
> Much more power, in one line.
>
Now you've done it, bozo. I now have this image of Tiny Tim and his
ukelele firmly imprinted. Grumble.
Snort.
On 10/14/2013 6:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>
> On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had this a few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
>
> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off less that 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this might be the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit. Same problem. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which is on a separate 240VAC circuit.
>
> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6' from the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
>
> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the cover off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I have this connected to my DC.
>
> I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's worth of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a piece of the leftover maple.
>
> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit breaker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought the jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Leonhardt
>
Have you tried plugging another relatively heavy draw tool into the
circuit to rule out your jointer?
Bill Leonhardt <[email protected]> wrote in news:83a359b6-fcfb-44f3-8d84-
[email protected]:
> OK this is an update on my issue:
>
> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original circuit. (Some times
things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI
circuit and it popped right away.
Obvious conclusion: the problem is not the GFCIs.
>
> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said that the code said
that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the outlets needed to be
protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no
stinkin' GFCI.
>
> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit and it ran OK for
about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>
> Here's my plan.
>
> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to because I really want to
check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>
> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
In heaven's name, WHY? Isn't it clear already that the problem is the jointer, not the GFCI?
>
> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line (non-GFCI) to the jointer and
get on with my life.
Wrong solution. If the trouble persists, you need to find out what's wrong with the jointer
before "get on with your life" turns into "abbreviate your life" by electrocution. That GFCI is
tripping for a REASON. The reason is that your jointer is leaking current to ground -- which
means that its frame is becoming energized. And *that* means that you could receive a
fatal shock from touching it.
Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> To those "in the know". If there is "leakage" like this, does it mean
> that their might be risk of shock to the user or fire (from
> overheating?). Just curious.
Risk of shock, potentially fatal. The amount of current which can stop your heart, or send it into
atrial fibrillation, is astonishingly low, somewhere on the order of 20 to 50 mA.
> I've already picked up a new question I've saving for I look at used
> equipment for sale: "Yes, But will it run on a GFCI-protected circuit?" : )
Likely answer: "Beats me, I never tried." If you're concerned about it, buy an extension cord
with a built-in GFCI (or make one -- I can show you how) and take it with you when you're
shopping.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:525eafdf$0$12655$c3e8da3
[email protected]:
>
> Based on the above, the first thing I would do is verify whether motor
> can be wired for 240V.
>
> If so, problem is solved.
>
> Rewire and move on.
WRONG. If the GFCI is tripping because one or the other of the circuit conductors is leaking
to ground, rewiring the motor for 240V will do absolutely nothing to change that -- and hence
absolutely nothing to alter the existing shock hazard.
[...]
> Last choice would be to replace GFCI receptacle.
He's already tried it with multiple GFCIs with no change in behavior. Why would you think
that yet another one would make any difference?
>
> BTW, a coat of paint on the walls could be called "Finished" in some
> parts of the country.
No, it cannot, not in compliance with the National Electrical Code.
Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Doug, You are coming to the party late. This has been discussed all week.
I know -- I thought I'd better chime in, when I saw the OP about to decide to "solve" a problem
that sure looks to me like a jointer with a ground fault by taking away the ground-fault
protection.
Bill Leonhardt <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Hello All,
>
> I am the OP (if that means original poster).
It does.
> I very much
> appreciate all the follow-up. I too am concerned as to why this
> happens.
As you should be. Motors that have absolutely nothing wrong with them can cause nuisance
trips on GFCIs due to voltage and current being out-of-phase in an inductive load -- and
trips can also be caused by current leakage. As I noted in another post, it doesn't take very
much current to interrupt your heart, and so this needs to be taken seriously.
>
> I need the weekend to pull the motor and have a look. Some
> additional info on my set-up:
>
> 1. The jointer is plugged into a string of outlets I have
> mounted on the first floor joists. I am in the basement so the
> outlets are overhead.
>
> 2. The power cord has a molded in plug.
>
> 3. The power cord runs straight up from the jointer to the
> outlet and is protected from abuse. It is mounted next to and in
> the shadow of the DC ducting.
>
> In conversations I have had, some folks have suggested that
> motors and GFCI outlets don't play together nice which is why
> you are warned to not plug your freezer into a GFCI outlet.
This is true.
> OK, I accept that but I had several years without an issue.
And this is why I think you are right to be concerned.
>
> I sure hope that after I pull the motor and open all the covers,
> I something loose, or chaffed or covered with a lot of dust.
> That I could fix. If I find nothing, I'm not sure how to
> proceed.
I think my next step, on finding nothing, would be to remove the motor from the jointer and
see if it still trips the GFCI -- if so, I'd take it to a motor repair shop and ask them what they
make of it.
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:14:18 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Bill Leonhardt <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:83a359b6-fcfb-44f3-8d84- [email protected]:
>>
>>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>>
>>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the
>>> original circuit. (Some times
>>things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the
>>GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped right away.
>>
>>Obvious conclusion: the problem is not the GFCIs.
>>>
>>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He
>>> said that the code said
>>that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the
>>outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to
>>do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>>>
>>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI
>>> circuit and it ran OK for
>>about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>>
>>> Here's my plan.
>>>
>>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to
>>> get to because I really want to
>>check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see if
>>220VAC is a possibility.
>>>
>>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that
>>> circuit.
>>
>>In heaven's name, WHY? Isn't it clear already that the problem
>>is the jointer, not the GFCI?
>>>
>>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A
>>> line (non-GFCI) to the jointer and
>>get on with my life.
>>
>>Wrong solution. If the trouble persists, you need to find out
>>what's wrong with the jointer before "get on with your life"
>>turns into "abbreviate your life" by electrocution. That GFCI is
>>tripping for a REASON. The reason is that your jointer is
>>leaking current to ground -- which means that its frame is
>>becoming energized. And *that* means that you could receive a
>>fatal shock from touching it.
> If the dang thing is grounded, the way it SHOULD be he'll
> never get
> a shock off of it.
Nonsense. If he makes a second, parallel path to ground through
his body, and the case is energized, some of that current *will*
flow through his body. Hopefully, it won't be enough to do him any
damage.
>The frame will always be at fround potential, If
> the leakage gets bad enough it will kick a regular breaker.
Think that through just a bit farther, will you?
The current required to trip a breaker is THREE ORDERS OF
MAGNITUDE greater than the current required to stop a human heart
from beating. It doesn't take nearly as much leakage current to
pose a risk to human life as it takes to trip a breaker.
> GFCI protection is BASICALLY for un-grounded equipment.
Wrong. GFCI protection is BASICALLY for the protection of human
life, REGARDLESS of what type of electrical equipment said human
is using.
[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:27:54 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Bill Leonhardt <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> I am the OP (if that means original poster).
>>
>>It does.
>>
>>> I very much
>>> appreciate all the follow-up. I too am concerned as to why this
>>> happens.
>>
>>As you should be. Motors that have absolutely nothing wrong with them can cause
nuisance
>>trips on GFCIs due to voltage and current being out-of-phase in an inductive load -- and
>>trips can also be caused by current leakage. As I noted in another post, it doesn't take
very
>>much current to interrupt your heart, and so this needs to be taken seriously.
>>>
>>> I need the weekend to pull the motor and have a look. Some
>>> additional info on my set-up:
>>>
>>> 1. The jointer is plugged into a string of outlets I have
>>> mounted on the first floor joists. I am in the basement so the
>>> outlets are overhead.
>>>
>>> 2. The power cord has a molded in plug.
>>>
>>> 3. The power cord runs straight up from the jointer to the
>>> outlet and is protected from abuse. It is mounted next to and in
>>> the shadow of the DC ducting.
>>>
>>> In conversations I have had, some folks have suggested that
>>> motors and GFCI outlets don't play together nice which is why
>>> you are warned to not plug your freezer into a GFCI outlet.
>>
>>This is true.
>>
>>> OK, I accept that but I had several years without an issue.
>>
>>And this is why I think you are right to be concerned.
>>>
>>> I sure hope that after I pull the motor and open all the covers,
>>> I something loose, or chaffed or covered with a lot of dust.
>>> That I could fix. If I find nothing, I'm not sure how to
>>> proceed.
>>
>>I think my next step, on finding nothing, would be to remove the motor from the jointer and
>>see if it still trips the GFCI -- if so, I'd take it to a motor repair shop and ask them what they
>>make of it.
>
> Does it trip under load as well? If not it could be a power factor
> issue (current out of phase with voltage) - which is always better
> under load.
I believe I just said that...
>
On Monday, October 14, 2013 7:50:23 PM UTC-4, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I connect =
everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp (120VAC)circuits wi=
th 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI outlet and then a chain =
of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had this =
a few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off less t=
hat 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this might be=
the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit. Same prob=
lem. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which is on a se=
parate 240VAC circuit. =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6' from =
the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the co=
ver off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I have th=
is connected to my DC.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's wor=
th of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a piece of t=
he leftover maple.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit brea=
ker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought the =
jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Bill Leonhardt
Follow-up
I have my lights (fluorescent) coming off the main house panel and all else=
coming off a sub panel for the shop. That way I can lock out all machines=
and outlets when I have grand kids working in the shop.
The shop is in my basement and I believe that general circuits (those not d=
edicated to a specific use) are required have a GFCI.
All my outlets and plugs are in good shape but the GFCIs are 9 or 10 years =
old. Still, it's hard to imagine they both failed at the same time.
I will see if I can get compressed air into the motor (although I think it'=
s sealed)to further blow it out. My 13" Rigid planer ran OK on one of the =
circuits since I got enough of the board flattened before the jointer quit =
to plane both sides.
I'll report back after the air trial.
Bill
< snips >
>
>At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC.
> He said that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work,
> the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI.
> I guess all I have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>
.... hang a picture on the wall & call it "finished " !
Also - I'd check with a real life electrician or Inspector
before asking an electrical engineer ..
John T.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 10/16/2013 9:19 PM, Bill wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>> On 10/16/2013 11:25 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "Bill Leonhardt" wrote:
>>>
>>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>>
>>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original
>>> circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4
>>> minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped
>>> right away.
>>>
>>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said
>>> that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or
>>> work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I
>>> have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>>>
>> Not true. A finished basement needs gfci too. I had put them in, and
>> when inspected we talked about them, they had to be on each ckt.
>
> You can also buy a GFCI circuit breaker for about $90, or so--which may
> outweigh installing multiple GFCI duplex outlets--your call.
> It would depend on how many you have, I guess.
>
>
Each ckt must have one,I have about 10 ckts thats 10 breakers.
Would rather use the outlet type, cheap enough to replace.
>>
>>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit
>>> and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>>
>>> Here's my plan.
>>>
>>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to
>>> because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I
>>> want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>>>
>>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>>>
>>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line
>>> (non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.
>>>
>>> I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> Based on the above, the first thing I would do is verify whether motor
>>> can be wired for 240V.
>>>
>>> If so, problem is solved.
>>>
>>> Rewire and move on.
>>>
>>> If not, then assuming you don't already have one, get a 50 ft, 10-3
>>> molded cord set and use it to plug jointer into non GFCI receptacle
>>> and get on with life.
>>>
>>> Why a 10-3 rather than a less expensive 12-3?
>>>
>>> Less voltage drop at the motor terminals.
>>>
>>> Last choice would be to replace GFCI receptacle.
>>>
>>> BTW, a coat of paint on the walls could be called "Finished" in some
>>> parts of the country.
>>>
>>> Have fun.
>>>
>>> Lew
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
--
Jeff
>> c) do away w/ the GFCIs
>>
>> Oh, there's no fluorescent lighting on the circuit is there?
> ----------------------------------------------------
> I vote for "C" above.
>
> The GFCI is a bit much in this application, IMHO.
>
> Lew
>
>
That might not be possible. I have a basement shop, and I am required by
code to have 12g wiring and gfci on each ckt.
I would try a new gfci, it's cheap enough to give it a try.
--
Jeff
Hello All,
I am the OP (if that means original poster). I very much appreciate all the follow-up. I too am concerned as to why this happens.
I need the weekend to pull the motor and have a look. Some additional info on my set-up:
1. The jointer is plugged into a string of outlets I have mounted on the first floor joists. I am in the basement so the outlets are overhead.
2. The power cord has a molded in plug.
3. The power cord runs straight up from the jointer to the outlet and is protected from abuse. It is mounted next to and in the shadow of the DC ducting.
In conversations I have had, some folks have suggested that motors and GFCI outlets don't play together nice which is why you are warned to not plug your freezer into a GFCI outlet. OK, I accept that but I had several years without an issue.
I sure hope that after I pull the motor and open all the covers, I something loose, or chaffed or covered with a lot of dust. That I could fix. If I find nothing, I'm not sure how to proceed.
Bill L.
On 10/18/2013 11:24 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> OK, I'll help you get your mind off that image:
>
> It's a small world after all
> It's a small world after all
> It's a small world after all
> It's a small, small world
Thanks, but I prefer "Tiptoe, through the tulips".
Much more power, in one line.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 10/14/2013 6:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I
> connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp
> (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI
> outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>
...
> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off
> less that 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this
> might be the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit.
> Same problem. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which
> is on a separate 240VAC circuit.
>
> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6'
> from the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from
> that.
>
> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled
> the cover off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either
> since Ihave this connected to my DC.
>
...
> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit
breaker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought
the jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
...
GFCIs work on the current imbalance between the two legs and trip as low
as 5-6 mA. What this indicates is that the motor now has a leakage path
that ends up being above the GFCI threshold--it probably started off at
just barely under and know with some age there's some insulation
degradation that has let it now be just over instead of just under.
Your choices as I see it are--
a) replace the GFCI w/ a different/newer one and see if goes away for at
least a while,
b) replace the motor w/ one that doesn't have the leakage current. It's
highly unlikely you'll be able to change its characteristics any
although despite no heavy dust buildup you might try blowing it out
thoroughly w/ compressed air to see if internal dust could be
contributing to the problem, or
c) do away w/ the GFCIs
Oh, there's no fluorescent lighting on the circuit is there?
--
On 10/14/2013 7:13 PM, dpb wrote:
...
> Your choices as I see it are--
>
> a) replace the GFCI w/ a different/newer one and see if goes away for at
> least a while,
>
> b) replace the motor w/ one that doesn't have the leakage current. It's
> highly unlikely you'll be able to change its characteristics any
> although despite no heavy dust buildup you might try blowing it out
> thoroughly w/ compressed air to see if internal dust could be
> contributing to the problem, or
>
> c) do away w/ the GFCIs
>
> Oh, there's no fluorescent lighting on the circuit is there?
And, while it's less likely given the two circuits both behave the same
now, look for and check all circuit connections to eliminate any high
impedance ones (relatively) that could contribute to the small imbalance.
--
dpb wrote:
> On 10/14/2013 6:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I
>> connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp
>> (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI
>> outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>>
>
> GFCIs work on the current imbalance between the two legs and trip as
> low as 5-6 mA. What this indicates is that the motor now has a
> leakage path that ends up being above the GFCI threshold--it probably
> started off at just barely under and know with some age there's some
> insulation degradation that has let it now be just over instead of
> just under.
Or it indicates an aging GFCI. These things do not have long life
expectancies.
>
> Your choices as I see it are--
>
> a) replace the GFCI w/ a different/newer one and see if goes away for
> at least a while,
That would be my first approach.
>
> b) replace the motor w/ one that doesn't have the leakage current. It's
> highly unlikely you'll be able to change its characteristics any
> although despite no heavy dust buildup you might try blowing it out
> thoroughly w/ compressed air to see if internal dust could be
> contributing to the problem, or
I find this one to be less likely.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 10/14/2013 7:39 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> On 10/14/2013 6:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I
>>> connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp
>>> (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI
>>> outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>>>
>
>>
>> GFCIs work on the current imbalance between the two legs and trip as
>> low as 5-6 mA. What this indicates is that the motor now has a
>> leakage path that ends up being above the GFCI threshold--it probably
>> started off at just barely under and know with some age there's some
>> insulation degradation that has let it now be just over instead of
>> just under.
>
> Or it indicates an aging GFCI. These things do not have long life
> expectancies.
I'd find that more convincing if it weren't both failing at the same
exact time...that's just _too_ coincidental...
>> Your choices as I see it are--
>>
>> a) replace the GFCI w/ a different/newer one and see if goes away for
>> at least a while,
>
> That would be my first approach.
It's certainly the simplest...
>>
>> b) replace the motor w/ one that doesn't have the leakage current. It's
>> highly unlikely you'll be able to change its characteristics any
>> although despite no heavy dust buildup you might try blowing it out
>> thoroughly w/ compressed air to see if internal dust could be
>> contributing to the problem, or
>
> I find this one to be less likely.
Well, in the days of GFCIs originally motors were notoriously
high-enough leakage to cause them to trip. That a presumably
Chinese-motor on an import tool has enough after a few years to now
cause a trip (on two separate ones, no less) is less remarkable
occurrence to me than the two GFCIs failing identically.
--
On 10/14/2013 7:53 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
...
> "dpb" wrote:
>
...
>>
>> c) do away w/ the GFCIs
...
> I vote for "C" above.
>
> The GFCI is a bit much in this application, IMHO.
...
That's certainly what I'd do, too, but figured I'd be conservative... :)
I don't have any on the place, anywhere, and have survived so far. I
have considered putting one on the heater circuits for the stock
waterers as the one place could see it being a benefit but they've been
there for 60-year or so and haven't ever been a problem so it seems like
a solution looking for a problem more than a cure...so haven't ever
gotten one of them round tuits.
--
GFI is getting wore out?
Problem with the windings and or arcing in switch/motor?
The GFI is getting input either from the machine or the GF! i s wore out?
Are the plugs and receptacles in good condition?
john
"Bill Leonhardt" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I connect
everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp (120VAC)circuits
with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI outlet and then a chain
of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had this a
few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off less that
1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this might be the
GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit. Same problem.
The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which is on a separate
240VAC circuit.
The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6' from the
panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the cover
off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I have this
connected to my DC.
I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's worth
of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a piece of the
leftover maple.
Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit
breaker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought
the jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
Thanks,
Bill Leonhardt
dpb wrote:
> On 10/14/2013 7:39 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> On 10/14/2013 6:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I
>>>> connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp
>>>> (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a
>>>> GFCI outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20
>>>> amp.
>>
>>>
>>> GFCIs work on the current imbalance between the two legs and trip as
>>> low as 5-6 mA. What this indicates is that the motor now has a
>>> leakage path that ends up being above the GFCI threshold--it
>>> probably started off at just barely under and know with some age
>>> there's some insulation degradation that has let it now be just
>>> over instead of just under.
>>
>> Or it indicates an aging GFCI. These things do not have long life
>> expectancies.
>
> I'd find that more convincing if it weren't both failing at the same
> exact time...that's just _too_ coincidental...
Yeah - chock that up to poor reading. I'm sorry - I did not notice that.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 10/14/2013 8:55 PM, Bill wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, there's no fluorescent lighting on the circuit is there?
>>
>
> As someone who has been considering installing a ceiling dust collector
> (or something else) on the same circuit as fluorescent lighting, is
> there an issue here I should know about?
> Why did you raise the concern?
RFI from the fluorescent is sometimes factor in false GFCI trips...there
shouldn't be any need for GFCI on such a circuit.
--
dpb wrote:
> On 10/14/2013 8:55 PM, Bill wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, there's no fluorescent lighting on the circuit is there?
>>>
>>
>> As someone who has been considering installing a ceiling dust
>> collector (or something else) on the same circuit as fluorescent
>> lighting, is there an issue here I should know about?
>> Why did you raise the concern?
>
> RFI from the fluorescent is sometimes factor in false GFCI
> trips...there shouldn't be any need for GFCI on such a circuit.
Not to contradict, but to bring clarity... proximity matters. If you have
a GFCI at 4' on a wall, and fluorescent lights at 7 feet, you'll have no
problems. That assumes maybe something like 2 or 3 feet from the wall with
the light run. Maybe even closer, but experience can certainly say that 2
feet will cause you no problems.
dpb usually posts some pretty factual stuff - maybe he can add to the
distance thing with more accurate stuff than I did.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>
> Follow-up
>
> I have my lights (fluorescent) coming off the main house panel and
> all else coming off a sub panel for the shop. That way I can lock
> out all machines and outlets when I have grand kids working in the
> shop.
>
> The shop is in my basement and I believe that general circuits (those
> not dedicated to a specific use) are required have a GFCI.
>
> All my outlets and plugs are in good shape but the GFCIs are 9 or 10
> years old. Still, it's hard to imagine they both failed at the same
> time.
>
> I will see if I can get compressed air into the motor (although I
> think it's sealed)to further blow it out. My 13" Rigid planer ran OK
> on one of the circuits since I got enough of the board flattened
> before the jointer quit to plane both sides.
>
> I'll report back after the air trial.
>
For now, I'd nix the lighting concerns. I have to go back and look at your
original post tomorrow, as dpb pointed out that I had missed some thing(s)
earlier. Right now... absent that look tomorrow, I'm leaning toward a
problem at the device. But - I do have to look at this when I'm not tired.
Oh hell - that could take a while...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:24:10 -0700, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> The shop is in my basement and I believe that general circuits (those
> not dedicated to a specific use) are required have a GFCI.
I recently had our house inspected for a sale. The inspector required a
GFCI on any receptacle within 5' or so of a faucet, but not on any other
circuit. It may be different for new construction or for your state but
I've never heard of an overall requirement for a GFCI.
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
dpb wrote:
> On 10/14/2013 8:55 PM, Bill wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, there's no fluorescent lighting on the circuit is there?
>>>
>>
>> As someone who has been considering installing a ceiling dust collector
>> (or something else) on the same circuit as fluorescent lighting, is
>> there an issue here I should know about?
>> Why did you raise the concern?
>
> RFI from the fluorescent is sometimes factor in false GFCI
> trips...there shouldn't be any need for GFCI on such a circuit.
>
> --
Thank you. Indeed, my lighting is not on a GFCI circuit.
On 10/14/2013 7:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>
> On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had this a few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
>
> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off less that 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this might be the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit. Same problem. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which is on a separate 240VAC circuit.
>
> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6' from the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
>
> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the cover off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I have this connected to my DC.
>
> I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's worth of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a piece of the leftover maple.
>
> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit breaker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought the jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Leonhardt
>
I'm wondering if the same reason a GFI is not used on a fridge circuit,
is the same reason it should not be used in shops for other motors (a
compressor at its guts is a motor), not for the food spoilage, but more
because of possible leakage.
--
Froz...
The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>
> > Follow-up
>
> I have my lights (fluorescent) coming off the main house
> panel and all else coming off a sub panel for the shop. That way I can
> lock out all machines and outlets when I
> have grand kids working in the shop.
> The shop is in my basement and I believe that general
> circuits (those not dedicated to a specific use) are
> required have a GFCI.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Don't think so.
> If you follow that logic, EVERY receptacle in the house
> would require GFCI protection which obviously is not the case.
I'm thinking they are treating the basement as they do an exterior wall
because of the (potential) dampness.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 10/14/2013 9:24 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
...
> The shop is in my basement and I believe that general circuits
> (thosenot dedicated to a specific use) are required have a GFCI.
If you're covered by NEC in current area, theoretically that's
so...another case where the cure is worse than the disease in many cases. :(
...
> I will see if I can get compressed air into the motor (although I
> think it's sealed)to further blow it out. My 13" Rigid planer ran OK on
> one of the circuits since I got enough of the board flattened before the
> jointer quit to plane both sides.
>
> I'll report back after the air trial.
An potential alternative that fixes the problem longer term if it turns
out the motor leakage has gotten high enough for even a replacement GFCI
would be (presuming it's a dual-voltage motor) to switch it over to a
240V circuit--they're not under the NEC mandate. I'd prefer it on the
higher voltage anyways if possible.
Again, don't forget to check motor connections at the plug and motor end
to ensure they're as clean and tight as possible to eliminate any chance
of a higher impedance connection being the final straw on the current
imbalance.
Since you're hitting both circuits, it's pretty clear the cause is the
motor/wiring there, not the rest of the wiring altho again it's the
total so a little here, a little there, it all adds up...but that both
circuits cause it pretty much rules them out.
--
Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> OK this is an update on my issue:
>
> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped right away.
>
> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>
> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>
> Here's my plan.
>
> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>
> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>
> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line (non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.
To those "in the know". If there is "leakage" like this, does it mean
that their might be risk of shock to the user or fire (from
overheating?). Just curious.
I've already picked up a new question I've saving for I look at used
equipment for sale: "Yes, But will it run on a GFCI-protected circuit?" : )
>
> I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
>
> Thanks for all the responses, especially since it was only marginally a WW topic. I love this group.
>
>
> Bill Leonhardt
> ____________________________________________________________________
> On Monday, October 14, 2013 7:50:23 PM UTC-4, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>>
>>
>>
>> On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had this a few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
>>
>>
>>
>> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off less that 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this might be the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit. Same problem. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which is on a separate 240VAC circuit.
>>
>>
>>
>> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6' from the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
>>
>>
>>
>> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the cover off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I have this connected to my DC.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's worth of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a piece of the leftover maple.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit breaker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought the jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Leonhardt
On 10/15/2013 7:38 PM, Bill wrote:
...
> To those "in the know". If there is "leakage" like this, does it mean
> that their might be risk of shock to the user or fire (from
> overheating?). Just curious.
...
Theoretically (that's why the GFCI limit is set so low), yes, 4-5 mA
directly across the heart region is enough to be fatal. But, to get
that means you've got be be holding onto the side that is hot with one
hand and have the other on a solid ground so the path is through you and
the entire leakage current of that magnitude is through you.
So possible, yes; at all likely really not, especially in absence of
water or other way to get a solid ground. For pool equipment, other wet
areas like shavers, etc., around bath sinks, etc., and as I mentioned
before, heaters for livestock waterers and so on where there is a pretty
good chance that you could get the ground they've a purpose but for the
general shop area as a general rule they're really overdoing it imo.
It is not an overcurrent protection issue at all; that's what the
regular circuit breaker is for.
--
woodchucker wrote:
> On 10/16/2013 11:25 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Bill Leonhardt" wrote:
>>
>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>
>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original
>> circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4
>> minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped
>> right away.
>>
>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said
>> that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or
>> work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I
>> have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>>
> Not true. A finished basement needs gfci too. I had put them in, and
> when inspected we talked about them, they had to be on each ckt.
You can also buy a GFCI circuit breaker for about $90, or so--which may
outweigh installing multiple GFCI duplex outlets--your call.
It would depend on how many you have, I guess.
>
>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit
>> and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>
>> Here's my plan.
>>
>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to
>> because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I
>> want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>>
>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>>
>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line
>> (non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.
>>
>> I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Based on the above, the first thing I would do is verify whether motor
>> can be wired for 240V.
>>
>> If so, problem is solved.
>>
>> Rewire and move on.
>>
>> If not, then assuming you don't already have one, get a 50 ft, 10-3
>> molded cord set and use it to plug jointer into non GFCI receptacle
>> and get on with life.
>>
>> Why a 10-3 rather than a less expensive 12-3?
>>
>> Less voltage drop at the motor terminals.
>>
>> Last choice would be to replace GFCI receptacle.
>>
>> BTW, a coat of paint on the walls could be called "Finished" in some
>> parts of the country.
>>
>> Have fun.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>
>
Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 10/16/2013 06:19 PM, Bill wrote:
>> woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 10/16/2013 11:25 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> "Bill Leonhardt" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>>>
>>>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original
>>>> circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4
>>>> minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped
>>>> right away.
>>>>
>>>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said
>>>> that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or
>>>> work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I
>>>> have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>>>>
>>> Not true. A finished basement needs gfci too. I had put them in, and
>>> when inspected we talked about them, they had to be on each ckt.
>>
>> You can also buy a GFCI circuit breaker for about $90, or so--which may
>> outweigh installing multiple GFCI duplex outlets--your call.
>> It would depend on how many you have, I guess.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit
>>>> and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>>>
>>>> Here's my plan.
>>>>
>>>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to
>>>> because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I
>>>> want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>>>>
>>>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>>>>
>>>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line
>>>> (non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.
>>>>
>>>> I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Based on the above, the first thing I would do is verify whether motor
>>>> can be wired for 240V.
>>>>
>>>> If so, problem is solved.
>>>>
>>>> Rewire and move on.
>>>>
>>>> If not, then assuming you don't already have one, get a 50 ft, 10-3
>>>> molded cord set and use it to plug jointer into non GFCI receptacle
>>>> and get on with life.
>>>>
>>>> Why a 10-3 rather than a less expensive 12-3?
>>>>
>>>> Less voltage drop at the motor terminals.
>>>>
>>>> Last choice would be to replace GFCI receptacle.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, a coat of paint on the walls could be called "Finished" in some
>>>> parts of the country.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun.
>>>>
>>>> Lew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> You only need one GFCI up stream from the rest of the outlets - just
> like a GFCI breaker for the entire circuit. No need for GFCIs on each
> outlet.
>
>
Good point. Thanks!
[email protected] wrote:
>
> They also tend to be closer to where you're working, which shouldn't
> be important but too often is. In a previous house, we had one GFCI
> breaker for the three bathrooms (and outside outlets). It wasn't very
> convenient to have to step out of the shower and walk out onto the
> front porch to reset the GFCI.
Bad visions in my mind...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 10/18/2013 7:14 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Bill Leonhardt <[email protected]> wrote in news:83a359b6-fcfb-44f3-8d84-
> [email protected]:
>
>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>
>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original circuit. (Some times
> things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI
> circuit and it popped right away.
>
> Obvious conclusion: the problem is not the GFCIs.
>>
>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said that the code said
> that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the outlets needed to be
> protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no
> stinkin' GFCI.
>>
>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit and it ran OK for
> about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>
>> Here's my plan.
>>
>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to because I really want to
> check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>>
>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>
> In heaven's name, WHY? Isn't it clear already that the problem is the jointer, not the GFCI?
>>
>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line (non-GFCI) to the jointer and
> get on with my life.
>
> Wrong solution. If the trouble persists, you need to find out what's wrong with the jointer
> before "get on with your life" turns into "abbreviate your life" by electrocution. That GFCI is
> tripping for a REASON. The reason is that your jointer is leaking current to ground -- which
> means that its frame is becoming energized. And *that* means that you could receive a
> fatal shock from touching it.
>
Doug, You are coming to the party late. This has been discussed all week.
Leon wrote:
> On 10/18/2013 11:30 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 10/18/2013 11:24 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> OK, I'll help you get your mind off that image:
>>>
>>> It's a small world after all
>>> It's a small world after all
>>> It's a small world after all
>>> It's a small, small world
>>
>>
>> Thanks, but I prefer "Tiptoe, through the tulips".
>>
>> Much more power, in one line.
>>
>
> Who let the dogs out? Wolf, Wolf Wolf
Wheel in the sky keeps on turning;
Don't know where I'll be to-morrrr--arrr--oow;
Duh-da-dut-durrr..
Swingman wrote:
> On 10/18/2013 10:29 AM, Bill wrote:
>
>> Doug, You are coming to the party late. This has been discussed all
>> week.
>
> Regardless, Doug is arguably one of the most informed posters here
> today with regard to electrical code issues, and a good deal of
> troubleshooting to boot.
>
> Pay attention ... sometimes it is best to let the kibitzing dust
> settle first. ;)
>
>
Yessir.
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:30:48 -0500, Swingman wrote:
>> It's a small world after all
>> It's a small world after all
>> It's a small world after all
>> It's a small, small world
>
>
> Thanks, but I prefer "Tiptoe, through the tulips".
Oh, this is number one and the fun has just begun ...
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 12:55:50 -0700, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> 1. The jointer is plugged into a string of outlets I have mounted on
> the first floor joists. I am in the basement so the outlets are
> overhead.
Is the jointer outlet the first in the string? If not, have you tried it
on others in the string? It could be a faulty outlet.
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:00:25 -0700, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Larry Blanchard" wrote:
>
>> Oh, this is number one and the fun has just begun ...
> ------------------------------------------ Roll me over, lay me down and
> do it again.....
>
> Lew
Or: Roll her over in the clover, do it again."
--
This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub
they ripped it off.
On 10/18/2013 11:30 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/18/2013 11:24 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> OK, I'll help you get your mind off that image:
>>
>> It's a small world after all
>> It's a small world after all
>> It's a small world after all
>> It's a small, small world
>
>
> Thanks, but I prefer "Tiptoe, through the tulips".
>
> Much more power, in one line.
>
Who let the dogs out? Wolf, Wolf Wolf
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:14:18 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Bill Leonhardt <[email protected]> wrote in news:83a359b6-fcfb-44f3-8d84-
>[email protected]:
>
>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>
>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original circuit. (Some times
>things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI
>circuit and it popped right away.
>
>Obvious conclusion: the problem is not the GFCIs.
>>
>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said that the code said
>that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the outlets needed to be
>protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no
>stinkin' GFCI.
>>
>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit and it ran OK for
>about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>
>> Here's my plan.
>>
>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to because I really want to
>check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>>
>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>
>In heaven's name, WHY? Isn't it clear already that the problem is the jointer, not the GFCI?
>>
>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line (non-GFCI) to the jointer and
>get on with my life.
>
>Wrong solution. If the trouble persists, you need to find out what's wrong with the jointer
>before "get on with your life" turns into "abbreviate your life" by electrocution. That GFCI is
>tripping for a REASON. The reason is that your jointer is leaking current to ground -- which
>means that its frame is becoming energized. And *that* means that you could receive a
>fatal shock from touching it.
If the dang thing is grounded, the way it SHOULD be he'll never get
a shock off of it. The frame will always be at fround potential, If
the leakage gets bad enough it will kick a regular breaker.
GFCI protection is BASICALLY for un-grounded equipment.
On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 21:37:12 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> On 10/16/2013 06:19 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> woodchucker wrote:
>>>> On 10/16/2013 11:25 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>> "Bill Leonhardt" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>>>>
>>>>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original
>>>>> circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4
>>>>> minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped
>>>>> right away.
>>>>>
>>>>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said
>>>>> that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or
>>>>> work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I
>>>>> have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>>>>>
>>>> Not true. A finished basement needs gfci too. I had put them in, and
>>>> when inspected we talked about them, they had to be on each ckt.
>>>
>>> You can also buy a GFCI circuit breaker for about $90, or so--which may
>>> outweigh installing multiple GFCI duplex outlets--your call.
>>> It would depend on how many you have, I guess.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit
>>>>> and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my plan.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to
>>>>> because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I
>>>>> want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line
>>>>> (non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Based on the above, the first thing I would do is verify whether motor
>>>>> can be wired for 240V.
>>>>>
>>>>> If so, problem is solved.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rewire and move on.
>>>>>
>>>>> If not, then assuming you don't already have one, get a 50 ft, 10-3
>>>>> molded cord set and use it to plug jointer into non GFCI receptacle
>>>>> and get on with life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why a 10-3 rather than a less expensive 12-3?
>>>>>
>>>>> Less voltage drop at the motor terminals.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last choice would be to replace GFCI receptacle.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, a coat of paint on the walls could be called "Finished" in some
>>>>> parts of the country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have fun.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> You only need one GFCI up stream from the rest of the outlets - just
>> like a GFCI breaker for the entire circuit. No need for GFCIs on each
>> outlet.
>>
>>
>Good point. Thanks!
Make sure you get them in the right way 'round. They don't work well
the other way. DAMHIKT. :-(
On 10/15/2013 6:48 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
That should have been your very first troubleshooting act, more than
likely saving you a good deal of time, money and typing.
If it doesn't solve the problem, then it isolates the problem to
somewhere from the plug, to the motor on the tool itself.
> I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.
Think no further.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:57:15 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 10/15/2013 12:41 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:
>> On 10/14/2013 7:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I
>>> connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp
>>> (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI
>>> outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>>>
>>> On one circuit I have my Yorkcraft 6" jointer plugged in. I've had
>>> this a few years. It's been lightly used with no prior problems.
>>>
>>> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off
>>> less that 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking
>>> this might be the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second
>>> circuit. Same problem. The only other piece of equipment running was
>>> the DC which is on a separate 240VAC circuit.
>>>
>>> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6'
>>> from the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from that.
>>>
>>> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled the
>>> cover off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either since I
>>> have this connected to my DC.
>>>
>>> I have done a baby crib's worth of (soft)maple and 2 large bookcase's
>>> worth of cherry without incident. The piece I was working on was a
>>> piece of the leftover maple.
>>>
>>> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit
>>> breaker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I
>>> bought the jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Bill Leonhardt
>>>
>> I'm wondering if the same reason a GFI is not used on a fridge circuit,
>> is the same reason it should not be used in shops for other motors (a
>> compressor at its guts is a motor), not for the food spoilage, but more
>> because of possible leakage.
>>
>So for what it's worth all my tools are on gfci's.
>Compressor, tablesaw, drill press, bandsaw, jointer, 2 stationary
>sanders, planer, router table, shop vacs.
>
>Nothing pops the gfci. Occasionaly I pop a ckt breaker when starting the
>ts..
>
>I think the refrig is to prevent lost food, and spoiling.
Right, but that's because the inductive Power Factor causes the GFCI
to falsely detect a ground fault. The same happens with a large
motor.
>But our hardware should be sound... and it is better to have it, than
>not. Long ago they didn't have them... I'm sure there were occaisonal
>electrocutions. I have been to many garage sales, I can't believe how
>some guys keep their equip or work with frayed wires or just not well
>maintained cords/boxes,switches. A gfci is cheap insurance.
I doubt there were many such electrocutions (dry basement) but it's
not a big issue.
On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 21:50:45 -0400, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 10/16/2013 9:19 PM, Bill wrote:
>> woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 10/16/2013 11:25 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> "Bill Leonhardt" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>>>
>>>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original
>>>> circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4
>>>> minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped
>>>> right away.
>>>>
>>>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said
>>>> that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or
>>>> work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I
>>>> have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.
>>>>
>>> Not true. A finished basement needs gfci too. I had put them in, and
>>> when inspected we talked about them, they had to be on each ckt.
>>
>> You can also buy a GFCI circuit breaker for about $90, or so--which may
>> outweigh installing multiple GFCI duplex outlets--your call.
>> It would depend on how many you have, I guess.
>>
>>
>Each ckt must have one,I have about 10 ckts thats 10 breakers.
>Would rather use the outlet type, cheap enough to replace.
They also tend to be closer to where you're working, which shouldn't
be important but too often is. In a previous house, we had one GFCI
breaker for the three bathrooms (and outside outlets). It wasn't very
convenient to have to step out of the shower and walk out onto the
front porch to reset the GFCI.
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:14:18 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Bill Leonhardt <[email protected]> wrote in news:83a359b6-fcfb-44f3-8d84-
>[email protected]:
>
>> OK this is an update on my issue:
>>
>> Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original circuit. (Some times
>things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI
>circuit and it popped right away.
>
>Obvious conclusion: the problem is not the GFCIs.
>>
>> At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said that the code said
>that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the outlets needed to be
>protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no
>stinkin' GFCI.
>>
>> OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit and it ran OK for
>about 10-15 minutes (no load).
>>
>> Here's my plan.
>>
>> 1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to because I really want to
>check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.
>>
>> 2. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.
>
>In heaven's name, WHY? Isn't it clear already that the problem is the jointer, not the GFCI?
>>
>> 3. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line (non-GFCI) to the jointer and
>get on with my life.
>
>Wrong solution. If the trouble persists, you need to find out what's wrong with the jointer
>before "get on with your life" turns into "abbreviate your life" by electrocution. That GFCI is
>tripping for a REASON. The reason is that your jointer is leaking current to ground -- which
>means that its frame is becoming energized. And *that* means that you could receive a
>fatal shock from touching it.
One thing I haven't seen is to thouroughly inspect the cord for any
potential damage all it takes is a pin hole. Any sign of stress or
compression to the cord could have damaged the internal insulation. If
the cord cap isn't a molded type inspect it as well. If you have a
meter you can check for continuity between ground and either
conductor. Since it used to work OK you do have to be concerned with
a potential hazard.
Mike M
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:27:54 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Bill Leonhardt <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I am the OP (if that means original poster).
>
>It does.
>
>> I very much
>> appreciate all the follow-up. I too am concerned as to why this
>> happens.
>
>As you should be. Motors that have absolutely nothing wrong with them can cause nuisance
>trips on GFCIs due to voltage and current being out-of-phase in an inductive load -- and
>trips can also be caused by current leakage. As I noted in another post, it doesn't take very
>much current to interrupt your heart, and so this needs to be taken seriously.
>>
>> I need the weekend to pull the motor and have a look. Some
>> additional info on my set-up:
>>
>> 1. The jointer is plugged into a string of outlets I have
>> mounted on the first floor joists. I am in the basement so the
>> outlets are overhead.
>>
>> 2. The power cord has a molded in plug.
>>
>> 3. The power cord runs straight up from the jointer to the
>> outlet and is protected from abuse. It is mounted next to and in
>> the shadow of the DC ducting.
>>
>> In conversations I have had, some folks have suggested that
>> motors and GFCI outlets don't play together nice which is why
>> you are warned to not plug your freezer into a GFCI outlet.
>
>This is true.
>
>> OK, I accept that but I had several years without an issue.
>
>And this is why I think you are right to be concerned.
>>
>> I sure hope that after I pull the motor and open all the covers,
>> I something loose, or chaffed or covered with a lot of dust.
>> That I could fix. If I find nothing, I'm not sure how to
>> proceed.
>
>I think my next step, on finding nothing, would be to remove the motor from the jointer and
>see if it still trips the GFCI -- if so, I'd take it to a motor repair shop and ask them what they
>make of it.
Does it trip under load as well? If not it could be a power factor
issue (current out of phase with voltage) - which is always better
under load.
On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 21:14:07 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> They also tend to be closer to where you're working, which shouldn't
>> be important but too often is. In a previous house, we had one GFCI
>> breaker for the three bathrooms (and outside outlets). It wasn't very
>> convenient to have to step out of the shower and walk out onto the
>> front porch to reset the GFCI.
>
>Bad visions in my mind...
The neighbors didn't like it much either. ;-)
OK, I'll help you get your mind off that image:
It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small, small world
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:13:44 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 10/14/2013 6:50 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>> In my shop I have two general purpose electrical circuits that I
>> connect everything to except the big machines. They are 20 amp
>> (120VAC)circuits with 12 gauge wire. Each circuit starts with a GFCI
>> outlet and then a chain of normal outlets. All outlets are 20 amp.
>>
>...
>
>> This evening I was jointing a piece of 1 x 6 maple set to take off
>> less that 1/64 per pass. After a bit, the GFI would pop. Thinking this
>> might be the GFCI outlet, I connected the jointer to the second circuit.
>> Same problem. The only other piece of equipment running was the DC which
>> is on a separate 240VAC circuit.
>>
>> The circuit breaker (20 amp)never pops. The GFCI outlet is maybe 6'
>> from the panel and the second outlet (jointer) is about 8-10' from
>> that.
>>
>> The jointer has a 1 hp motor (running at 120VAC)and, when I pulled
>> the cover off, the motor was barely warm. No dust buildup either
>> since Ihave this connected to my DC.
>>
>...
>
>> Any thought why this would cause the GFCI to pop and not the circuit
>breaker? Also, what would I look for with respect to the cause. I bought
>the jointer new 8 or 9 years ago and it has been lightly used.
>...
>
>GFCIs work on the current imbalance between the two legs and trip as low
>as 5-6 mA. What this indicates is that the motor now has a leakage path
>that ends up being above the GFCI threshold--it probably started off at
>just barely under and know with some age there's some insulation
>degradation that has let it now be just over instead of just under.
>
>Your choices as I see it are--
>
>a) replace the GFCI w/ a different/newer one and see if goes away for at
>least a while,
That would be my first choice.
>b) replace the motor w/ one that doesn't have the leakage current. It's
>highly unlikely you'll be able to change its characteristics any
>although despite no heavy dust buildup you might try blowing it out
>thoroughly w/ compressed air to see if internal dust could be
>contributing to the problem, or
>
>c) do away w/ the GFCIs
...and that if a) didn't work.
>Oh, there's no fluorescent lighting on the circuit is there?