I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
It died.
I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
if I'm buying something new anyway...
Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
regular paper? Which do you prefer?
Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
something for under $100.
Thanks in advance.
Greg Guarino
Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> It died.
>
> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Guarino
I've been using a B&D mouse as my primary sander. It's low vibration,
and uses hook and loop sand paper. The big selling point when it was new
was the shape, as it comes to a point in the front to get in to corners.
There is no dust collection at all, but other than that it's a pretty
decent tool.
I built a sander out of an old lathe, and initially used PSA sand paper
with a pine backing board. It worked great until I wanted to change
grits. I figured once the paper is removed it's not worth trying to get
back on. So a short time later I upgraded to a H&L replacement disk.
Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> There are ROS that use self-sick sandpapers. The hook-and-loop type
> is better for changing papers quickly and better at being reusable.
I'm gonna defend PSA paper a little bit here. A "good quality" PSA paper is
no harder or slower to replace than a Hook & Loop paper. For many years I
used 3M PSA paper exclusively, I got it for free. The body shop guys would
not have put up with a hard to replace paper had PSA been a PIA to use.
After leaving the automotive business and loosing my free source for 3M
paper I switched to Porter Cable paper and it was just as easy to deal
with.
Then as per the advice given here, recommending Klingspore paper, I bought a
roll of PSA disks. That stuff was CRAP! It sanded well but I now know why
so many consider the PSA paper a PIA to remove. Klingspore offered no help.
I just knew that I had a bad roll, apparently not. Good PSA paper "does
not" need a peel off separator to keep the adhesive from sticking to the
pieces below.
Oddly I now only use H&L or until Festool makes pads to accept it.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> when the sander hangs over the edge of the work. A warning however, you
may
> need to clamp down small pieces, variable speed on the vac is almost a
must.
Misread your message. My ROS is variable speed, but I don't have a variable
speed vac per se, however it does have adjustable air flow inlet on the
hose. I'm hoping that can do the same thing.
"dpb" wrote:
>..... the cost of abrasive is probably of no concern but H&L is
>roughly 50% more than PSA and w/ heavy use it adds up.
If you pay a 50% premium for H&L, somebody saw you coming.
I use 6" on a Bosch 3727 and last time I bought paper, 60 grit and
finer was less than $25/100 (std box) for H&L.
Maybe you need to find a new source.
Lew
On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:32:53 -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:31:42 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Apr 1, 3:29 pm, "Russ Stanton" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I've looked at most messages in this thread and I am not sure why no one has
>>> mentioned the samll Bosch palm sander. You tear a regular sheet of sandpaper
>>> in fourths, the grippers on the Bosch hold it very tight and it is very easy
>>> to load. Use the provided punch to make holes in the paper after it is on
>>> the sander, attach it to a vac and you're in business. I use this for most
>>> all sanding and it works great.
>>> Russ"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> > I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
>>> > unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
>>> > last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
>>> > was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>>>
>>> > It died.
>>>
>>> > I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
>>> > use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>>>
>>> > Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
>>> > if I'm buying something new anyway...
>>>
>>> > Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
>>> > regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>>>
>>> > Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
>>> > something for under $100.
>>>
>>> > Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> > Greg Guarino
>
>Getting here late on this one but my 2 cents.....
>
>Have used over the past 8 years Porter Cables, Bosch, Dewalt, (and
>seen them all die), now I have a Milwaukee. They were all fine when
>new, but not one (with the possible exception of the Dewalt) more than
>a year or so before developing problems.
>The Milwaukee is very nice! Better, in my opinion, than any of the
>others were when new. For about $80 it's where you should start
>looking. No doubt you can get a better sander (Festool ?) but for lots
>more $$$$.
>Oh, and Milwaukee's tools have a 5 years warranty.
>
>Lenny
I am considering a Milwaukee, althought the PC I saw has more power,
if I remember correctly. I'm getting the impression that a sander has
an inherently violent mode of operation and can't be expected to last
forever. With any luck what might last you a year will last me ten.
Thanks again to all for more advice than I could have dreamt of. I
even read with interest the comments on things that that are over my
budget, above my volume of use and beyond my skill level. I probably
won't be buying that large compressor for awhile though.
Greg Guarino
"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I waited for the paper to actually tear before I replaced it. It's
> self-defeating laziness too, leaving on a piece that's as effective as
> typing paper only lengthens the job.
Hey, consider the benefits. You get to go from sanding to polishing
non-stop. :)
On Mar 31, 11:16=A0am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> Greg Guarino wrote:
> > On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:04:01 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> >> "Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>> I waited for the paper to actually tear before I replaced it. It's
> >>> self-defeating laziness too, leaving on a piece that's as effective a=
s
> >>> typing paper only lengthens the job.
> >> Hey, consider the benefits. You get to go from sanding to polishing
> >> non-stop. =A0:)
>
> > I'm seeing a whole new product idea now, a layer cake of three
> > different grits, then friction-activated poly, steel wool, poly, steel
> > wool, paste wax, buffer., all to fit a "Roomba"-type robot sander. We
> > could get Ron Popeil to sell it "Just set it...and forget it!".
>
> And that's not all - if you order in the next fifteen minutes, we'll
> also send you our new in-line sawdust compactor attachment that
> compresses your sawdust into easy-to-dispose-of #2 biscuits!
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
ONLY $ 25.95!!!
*whispers* 3 payments of
ONLY $ 25.95!!!
.
.
*whispers* plus shipping and handling.
Translation: $ 140.00 by the time it gets to your door.
Greg Guarino wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:04:01 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> "Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> I waited for the paper to actually tear before I replaced it. It's
>>> self-defeating laziness too, leaving on a piece that's as effective as
>>> typing paper only lengthens the job.
>> Hey, consider the benefits. You get to go from sanding to polishing
>> non-stop. :)
>>
> I'm seeing a whole new product idea now, a layer cake of three
> different grits, then friction-activated poly, steel wool, poly, steel
> wool, paste wax, buffer., all to fit a "Roomba"-type robot sander. We
> could get Ron Popeil to sell it "Just set it...and forget it!".
And that's not all - if you order in the next fifteen minutes, we'll
also send you our new in-line sawdust compactor attachment that
compresses your sawdust into easy-to-dispose-of #2 biscuits!
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> Palm and orbital are really different animals. The orbital will take
> off more material but with a light hand it can do generally the same
> job as a palm and is therefore more versatile.
>
> Hook and loop is the way to go. The pad portion on th sander can be
> replaced after it wears out. Your other option is the stickem variety
> and not good. No one has invented a way to use regular paper on a
> round orbital yet that I have seen.
>
You must be a young whippersnapper... All round (random) orbitals
used regular paper discs held on with a non-setting adhesive that came
in a tube shaped much like a smallish toothpaste tube. Strangely enough
it was known as sanding disc adhesive, and available at any place that
sold the discs, sanders (air powered) or pads. You spread the
adhesive on the pad, waited for it to dry to medium tack and pressed on
the paper. The adhesive would last through several paper changes
mostly depending on how long between changes. Working as a bodyman and
painter in an automotive body shop, I probably went through a few
thousand discs before I left the industry. During normal days, you
might make it a couple of days before having to clean off the adhesive
and reapply it, but it was certain to change on Monday morning. The
pads were a sort of canvas like material before the advent of PSA type
discs. Still have one around here somewhere... Back in the day, the
popular brand was Devilbiss (like for spray guns) and then Rodac took
over for a while. [sigh] So much for the trip down memory lane.
If you really want to experience it like we "usta do", get some spray
contact cement like 3M 77, spray a standard PSA pad with some, spread it
out with your finger and wait for it to tack up, then press on the
paper. Trim around the edge to make it round if you don't have any disc
shaped (non PSA, non H&Loop) around and you're off to the races, so to
speak. How to get it off? Well, if you do it soon enough, it will pull
off just like PSA. If not, you just whip out the torch, fire it up and
briefly heat the surface of the paper (it will typically turn brown, or
black if you over do it. Fairly quickly, while the adhesive is still
warm, pull off the old paper and apply new. You can keep this on for
quite a while before you need to replace the adhesive...
Oh, you ask, does it work with PSA also? Yep, you betcha. Got some old
PSA paper that just doesn't want to stay on? A quick spray, spread and
wait cycle and the paper will stick until you want it off!
However, to answer the original poster's question, which sander to buy
is dependent on how long you want it to last. Which pad is how much
time you want to invest in changing discs. With H&L, you can whip
through the grits pretty fast, and re-use them without major problems.
With PSA, you either need a separate pad (and/or sander) for each grit
you use, or you need some place to stick the discs to when you change
grits. Not all that convenient, and the pressure sensitive glue on the
back of the discs gets contaminated with sawdust and the like, so they
don't work for more than a change or two.
Personally, I use H&L with a 5" pad for 60 through 150 grits, and have
dedicated units with PSA pads for 180, 220, 320 and 400 grit. As I'm
doing turning, I don't need random action heads and just use Milwaukee
angle drills as the units, and built up sponge padded heads with
naugahide surfaces for the PSA pads. Works quite well.
For flat surfaces, an ancient random orbit air sander with (now) 5" pad,
down from the 6" I used in the bodyshop days, and all is well.
--Rick
On Mar 30, 6:42=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > There are ROS that use self-sick sandpapers. =A0 The hook-and-loop type
> > is better for changing papers quickly and better at being reusable.
>
> I'm gonna defend PSA paper a little bit here. =A0A "good quality" PSA pap=
er is
> no harder or slower to replace than a Hook & Loop paper. =A0For many year=
s I
> used 3M PSA paper exclusively, I got it for free. =A0The body shop guys w=
ould
> not have put up with a hard to replace paper had PSA been a PIA to use.
>
> After leaving the automotive business and loosing my free source for 3M
> paper I switched to Porter Cable =A0paper and it was just as easy to deal
> with.
>
> Then as per the advice given here, recommending Klingspore paper, I bough=
t a
> roll of PSA disks. =A0That stuff was CRAP! =A0It sanded well but I now kn=
ow why
> so many consider the PSA paper a PIA to remove. =A0Klingspore offered no =
help.
> I just knew that I had a bad roll, apparently not. =A0Good PSA paper "doe=
s
> not" need a peel off separator to keep the adhesive from sticking to the
> pieces below.
>
> Oddly I now only use H&L or until Festool makes pads to accept it.
Then there is that little known problem that Hook & Loop and Velcro do
not always play nice together. I seem to recall, there is also a
third player in the H&L business, again, a wee bit different.
The Festool H&L grabs Mirka Abranet like dog snot to a screen door,
some of the pads on other sanders, such as Ridgid, not so much. The
Lee Valley replacement hook pad, doesn't hang onto all papers either.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:25:13 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>like dog snot to a screen door
That's a new one on me. I assume you mean that it holds well, but
lacking both dogs and knee-height screens, I can't be sure.
Thanks to all for the great info. A high traffic group like this is a
real boon to a hobbyist with more questions than skills.
I now feel confident that a ROS with hook & loop will suit my needs.
Thanks especially to the person who explained why H&L is functionally
superior to clamped plain paper.
Greg Guarino
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:04:01 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I waited for the paper to actually tear before I replaced it. It's
>> self-defeating laziness too, leaving on a piece that's as effective as
>> typing paper only lengthens the job.
>
>Hey, consider the benefits. You get to go from sanding to polishing
>non-stop. :)
>
I'm seeing a whole new product idea now, a layer cake of three
different grits, then friction-activated poly, steel wool, poly, steel
wool, paste wax, buffer., all to fit a "Roomba"-type robot sander. We
could get Ron Popeil to sell it "Just set it...and forget it!".
Greg Guarino
On Mar 31, 10:04=A0am, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On Mar 31, 9:45 am, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Well no, but since when have people in this forum ever refrained from
> >> going off on a tangent? =A0:-) =A0This thread's already full of that..=
.
>
> > Especially since everything is Clinton's fault.
>
> Shit disturber. =A0:-)
>
*haughty sniff*
"Moi??"
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Greg Guarino" wrote:
>
>> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
>> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> 5" will get a lot of work done.
>
> If you are an ocassional user as you suggest, it will certainly be
> acceptable.
>
>> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
>> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> Your choices are H&L and PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive).
>
> H&L paper is slightly more expensive by a small amount.
>
> Personally, I prefer H&L since trying to keep a PSA surface clean is more
> of a PITA than I am willing to accept.
>
> Lew
>
>
>> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
>> something for under $100.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Greg Guarino
>
Agreed on all of Lew's points. The stick 'em discs suck. If you forget
once to take it off, you'll spend more time cleaning the pad than sanding
your next project. Going with an outfit like:
http://www.stockroomsupply.com/
It is possible to stock your sandpaper needs for years to come pretty darned
cheaply.
About 15 years ago I bought a Sears Industrial 4.5" model and quickly
converted it to H&L. About a year ago, I replaced the pad. It runs every
bit as it should and does a great job. I think all of theirs are H&L and 5"
these days.
Ed
On Mar 31, 12:47=A0am, Charlie Groh <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:01:35 -0600, [email protected] (Gene Tracy)
> wrote:
>
> > =A0 The absolute best one ? MILWAUKEE ! I've got a DeWalt and a Porter
> >Cable and they don't come close . Incredible as it seems , the MILWAUKEE
> >cost $69.00 and comes with a case .
>
> ...I'd say Milwaukee simply on the basis of every other product of
> theirs that I own...goooood stuff. =A0That said my 5" ROS broke down the
> other day (it's a Porter Cable and has been worked to death...RIP, it
> did a good job!) and I ended up combining a couple of trips and stood
> in front of the Home Depot display. =A0I walked out with the Rigid (for
> 69 bux)...curiosity drove the purchase (I know Rigid makes a pretty
> decent product, so was reasonably sure the sander wouldn't be *bad*),
> got it home, hooked it up and was pleasently surprised...at least I
> know it's a step or two above my dead PC. =A0I like the ergonomics and
> the speed adjustment was a nice, new (to me!) touch. =A0Takes 8 hole
> paper but I've been using universals for awhile so that was no prob...
>
> cg
Hear hear on the Milwaukee products. Porter Cable is a mere shadow of
its former self, mostly inferior stuff these days.
DeWalt is also highly overrated in my opinion. Both those brands meant
something 20 years ago, now they're marketing companies.
The spot those guys filled back then are now handled by the Festool,
Fein, and Milwaukee brands, with a few others. True professional
grades. I absolutely love Milwaukee routers... especially the big
fella.
I wonder how much money I have spent figuring some of that out. The
other day, I was at my old shop, and looked at the 25-year old Porter
Cable production router. All cast, big heavy brute. Then they were
replaced with the 'new 4.2" motors, and they weren't so great anymore.
Then they dropped another couple of plasticized notches. Now they're
good for 6-months to a year. Not 3-5 years. (Keep in mind these run
all day.)
On Mar 31, 12:47=A0am, Charlie Groh <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:01:35 -0600, [email protected] (Gene Tracy)
> wrote:
>
> > =A0 The absolute best one ? MILWAUKEE ! I've got a DeWalt and a Porter
> >Cable and they don't come close . Incredible as it seems , the MILWAUKEE
> >cost $69.00 and comes with a case .
>
> ...I'd say Milwaukee simply on the basis of every other product of
> theirs that I own...goooood stuff. =A0That said my 5" ROS broke down the
> other day (it's a Porter Cable and has been worked to death...RIP, it
> did a good job!) and I ended up combining a couple of trips and stood
> in front of the Home Depot display. =A0I walked out with the Rigid (for
> 69 bux)...curiosity drove the purchase (I know Rigid makes a pretty
> decent product, so was reasonably sure the sander wouldn't be *bad*),
> got it home, hooked it up and was pleasently surprised...at least I
> know it's a step or two above my dead PC. =A0I like the ergonomics and
> the speed adjustment was a nice, new (to me!) touch. =A0Takes 8 hole
> paper but I've been using universals for awhile so that was no prob...
>
> cg
The Home Depot Ridgid line is spotty at best. For instance, their 6"
ROS, the 2610, was made by Metabo in Germany and is an excellent
sander. It was superseded (improved????) by the 6" 2611, which by all
accounts sucks canal water. They look very similar, but it is another
typical example of some MBA in some engineering dept came up with a
'better' way to make an extra few dollars per sander by sending the
job off-shore. Conversely, Sears Craftsman had a router built by Bosch
which is a good router, not cheap, but a good piece of equipment.
You just have to learn to flip over rocks and see what crawls out from
under.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> The spot those guys filled back then are now handled by the Festool,
> Fein, and Milwaukee brands, with a few others. True professional
> grades. I absolutely love Milwaukee routers...
Isn't Milwaukee primarily build overseas now? That's what I was told and it
played a large part in my buying a number DeWalt cordless tools. My previous
cordless drill (a 12v model bought about 15 years ago) *was* a Milwaukee and
was a decent tool.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:01:35 -0600, [email protected] (Gene Tracy)
wrote:
> The absolute best one ? MILWAUKEE ! I've got a DeWalt and a Porter
>Cable and they don't come close . Incredible as it seems , the MILWAUKEE
>cost $69.00 and comes with a case .
...I'd say Milwaukee simply on the basis of every other product of
theirs that I own...goooood stuff. That said my 5" ROS broke down the
other day (it's a Porter Cable and has been worked to death...RIP, it
did a good job!) and I ended up combining a couple of trips and stood
in front of the Home Depot display. I walked out with the Rigid (for
69 bux)...curiosity drove the purchase (I know Rigid makes a pretty
decent product, so was reasonably sure the sander wouldn't be *bad*),
got it home, hooked it up and was pleasently surprised...at least I
know it's a step or two above my dead PC. I like the ergonomics and
the speed adjustment was a nice, new (to me!) touch. Takes 8 hole
paper but I've been using universals for awhile so that was no prob...
cg
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ed Edelenbos" wrote:
>
>> http://www.stockroomsupply.com/
>
> Very pricey.
>
> Lew
>
Where do you buy?
Ed
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Ed Edelenbos" wrote:
>
>> Where do you buy?
>
>
> Klingspor.
>
> Buy boxes of 100/grit/box.
>
> Have them shipped UPS.
>
> Lew
>
> PS: Sometimes need to buy more than one box to meet minimum order.
>
Ah... I don't need anywhere near that quantity. For what I need, Stockroom
is fine. And, sometimes more time is spent trying to save money than money
is saved. (If that makes sense.)
Ed
"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:32:20 -0500, Dr. Deb wrote:
>
>> I concur with Phisherman. I bought a Milwalkee random orbit sander with
>> hook and loop, or my wife did for my birthday, a few months back. My
>> only complaint is, "Why didn't I do this years ago!"
>
> I haven't used Milwaukee, but it seems to have a good rep. But I'm
> surprised nobody has mentioned either Bosch or Festool. Festool is a bit
> pricey, but I've had a Bosch ROS for many years and it does everything
> well except dust collection - I understand the newer ones are better at
> that.
>
> --
> Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
Part of the orig. request was "under $100". I don't think you are allowed
to enter the Festool section of the store for under $100.
"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:21:45 -0400, Ed Edelenbos wrote:
>
>> "Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:32:20 -0500, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>>
>>>> I concur with Phisherman. I bought a Milwalkee random orbit sander
>>>
>>> I haven't used Milwaukee, but it seems to have a good rep. But I'm
>>> surprised nobody has mentioned either Bosch or Festool.
>>
>> Part of the orig. request was "under $100". I don't think you are
>> allowed to enter the Festool section of the store for under $100.
>
> Can you buy a Milwauke for < $100?
>
There's a 5" one that comes in between $70 and $80. There's a Bosch that
comes in at around $60.
Ed
"Russ Stanton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've looked at most messages in this thread and I am not sure why no one
> has mentioned the samll Bosch palm sander. You tear a regular sheet of
> sandpaper in fourths, the grippers on the Bosch hold it very tight and it
> is very easy to load. Use the provided punch to make holes in the paper
> after it is on the sander, attach it to a vac and you're in business. I
> use this for most all sanding and it works great.
> Russ
Probably because the orig. question (see below) was for a random orbital.
Those quarter sheet sanders are orbital, and they can leave tiny swirls on
the work if you're not careful. Random orbit sanders can (and tend to) give
a better result, for me. YMMV.
Ed
> "Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
>> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
>> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
>> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>>
>> It died.
>>
>> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
>> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>>
>> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
>> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>>
>> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
>> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>>
>> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
>> something for under $100.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Greg Guarino
>
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> If you buy a sander with a port to use with a shop vac your paper will
last
> longer and most likely your paper will look fine although it may be worn
out
> after a period of sanding.
I was wondering about that. For the past twenty years, I've used a small
Makita pad sander. I've just recently bought a DeWalt orbital 8 hole sander
with attached dust collector (which I have yet to use).
1) I was wondering if through experience (feel, touch, sound, whatever) one
can realize that it's time to replace the sandpaper and 2) aside from the
small dust collection bag becoming filled, is there any greater benefit to
connecting it to a shop vac instead?
"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:25:13 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>like dog snot to a screen door
>
> That's a new one on me. I assume you mean that it holds well, but
> lacking both dogs and knee-height screens, I can't be sure.
>
> Thanks to all for the great info. A high traffic group like this is a
> real boon to a hobbyist with more questions than skills.
>
> I now feel confident that a ROS with hook & loop will suit my needs.
> Thanks especially to the person who explained why H&L is functionally
> superior to clamped plain paper.
>
> Greg Guarino
Now that you have made your decision, let me also warn you about hook and
loop and PSA sand paper. ;~) Because this type sand paper wears out on the
business side and not all over it is often difficult to determine when to
change out to a new sheet. Clamp on paper often simply falls off or tears
and that is your indicator. With the PSA and hook and loop papers the
minerals typically wear out and the paper may appear to still be in very
good shape. Even worn out minerals can look brand new especially if you use
an attached vacuum.
Several ways to determine if you need to change sheets.
1. Does the sander seem to not be working as fast?
2. Have you been using the paper more than 15 minutes?
3. With your finger rub the mineral surface of the paper you are using and
compare its sharpness to a brand new sheet, same grit.
If you buy a sander with a port to use with a shop vac your paper will last
longer and most likely your paper will look fine although it may be worn out
after a period of sanding. This is one trait that I had a hard time getting
use to when I switched to Festool sanders and use the vac at the same time.
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:21:45 -0400, Ed Edelenbos wrote:
> "Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:32:20 -0500, Dr. Deb wrote:
>>
>>> I concur with Phisherman. I bought a Milwalkee random orbit sander
>>
>> I haven't used Milwaukee, but it seems to have a good rep. But I'm
>> surprised nobody has mentioned either Bosch or Festool.
>
> Part of the orig. request was "under $100". I don't think you are
> allowed to enter the Festool section of the store for under $100.
Can you buy a Milwauke for < $100?
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Steve Turner" wrote:
>
>> I've been watching this thread with interest, and I'm really
>> intrigued that no one has mentioned air power. A couple of years
>> ago a fellow woodworker turned me on to Dynabrade sanders and
>> they're such a joy to use that I've all but thrown away my electric
>> sanders:
> <snip>
>> You do need a fairly substantial air compressor to run them (the
>> Supreme eats a LOT of air; the Spirit is not nearly so hungry), but
>> if you have the air power I would give these sanders serious
>> consideration. Lots of power, and the speed is infinitely
>> adjustable (up to the maximum of 12,000 RPM), first with an
>> adjustment knob to regulate the incoming air pressure, then on
>> demand by varying the amount of palm pressure you apply to the main
>> lever.
>
> As you note, air supply is the issue, in the range of 15 SCFM.
>
> For a typical home shop with only single phase power, a 5HP,
> 240V,1PH,60HZ motor driving a 2 stage compressor setting on a verticl
> 80 gal tank.
No way. I've got a single stage compressor with a 60 gallon tank (3HP,
220V) and with the "Spirit" sander in continuous use the motor on the
compressor only runs about 20% of the time. With the "Supreme" the
motor runs quite a bit more, maybe 60% of the time. Granted, that's
more compressor than the average home shop probably has, but it's not
THAT out of the question. I can run the Spirit on my small Porter Cable
compressor, but it does keep the motor running pretty much continuously.
> PRICE: About $1,200 + installation which will require a 2P-40A c'bkr
> and #8 AWG minimum, (#6 AWG preferred)..
>
> It gets pricey in a hurry.
A compressor equivalent to the one I'm using is a common item at the
Borg, and they "only" cost about $500.
But I really wouldn't expect somebody to consider a Dynabrade sander as
a replacement for an electric unless they already *have* a decent air
compressor.
--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:32:20 -0500, Dr. Deb wrote:
> I concur with Phisherman. I bought a Milwalkee random orbit sander with
> hook and loop, or my wife did for my birthday, a few months back. My
> only complaint is, "Why didn't I do this years ago!"
I haven't used Milwaukee, but it seems to have a good rep. But I'm
surprised nobody has mentioned either Bosch or Festool. Festool is a bit
pricey, but I've had a Bosch ROS for many years and it does everything
well except dust collection - I understand the newer ones are better at
that.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Ed Edelenbos" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Part of the orig. request was "under $100". I don't think you are
>> allowed to enter the Festool section of the store for under $100.
>>
>
> Some stores require you to have at least a hankerchief (there's a word I
> haven't heard/seen/used in a long time!) to catch the drool. :-)
>
I thought that was to wipe the tears from your eyes when you saw the prices.
"Ed Edelenbos" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Part of the orig. request was "under $100". I don't think you are
> allowed to enter the Festool section of the store for under $100.
>
Some stores require you to have at least a hankerchief (there's a word I
haven't heard/seen/used in a long time!) to catch the drool. :-)
Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as some
writers are incorrigible.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
Greg Guarino wrote:
> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> It died.
>
> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Guarino
Here's an orbital sander for $12.00 that uses regular sand paper.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40070
Here's a hook-and-loop palm sander for $13.00
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98622
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> when the sander hangs over the edge of the work. A warning however, you
> may
>> need to clamp down small pieces, variable speed on the vac is almost a
> must.
>
> Misread your message. My ROS is variable speed, but I don't have a
> variable
> speed vac per se, however it does have adjustable air flow inlet on the
> hose. I'm hoping that can do the same thing.
>
You should be fine.
Leon wrote:
> "Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:fXgAl.11120$%[email protected]...
>
>> I've been watching this thread with interest, and I'm really intrigued
>> that no one has mentioned air power.
>
> Did you miss the opening statements,
>
> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf unit
> or some other "box with face frame" level of project.
Well no, but since when have people in this forum ever refrained from
going off on a tangent? :-) This thread's already full of that...
--
For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
"Ed Edelenbos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> Part of the orig. request was "under $100". I don't think you are allowed
> to enter the Festool section of the store for under $100.
That is entirely correct! Although you can enter there after you buy a
sander to buy sand paper. ;~)
Robatoy wrote:
> On Mar 31, 9:45 am, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Well no, but since when have people in this forum ever refrained from
>> going off on a tangent? :-) This thread's already full of that...
>
> Especially since everything is Clinton's fault.
Shit disturber. :-)
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> It died.
>
> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...+
NO not too small. I have been using that size for 20+ years. Random orbit
sanders can ve very agressive so large is not needed to cover a large area
quick.
>
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
You want to up grade from regular paper. Why! Because regular paper will
never fit as tightly as hook and loop or PSA backed paper. Why is this
improtant? Becase all of the action og the sander and paper is transmitted
to the work. Regular clamp fit paper tends to permit the sander pad to not
transfer all the action to the paper and work. In many cases the paper will
simply grab the work and let the sander vibrate on the back side of the
paper and often the only work being done is when you are moving the sander.
Hook and loop is prefable if you dont wear your sand paper out before
changing grits. If you use only one grit and always remove the paper after
a day of use, PSA, Pressure Sensitive Adhesive sand paper is cheaper. Hook
and loop is probably your best bet.
>
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
Porter Cable, DeWalt
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Guarino
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> If you buy a sander with a port to use with a shop vac your paper will
> last
>> longer and most likely your paper will look fine although it may be worn
> out
>> after a period of sanding.
>
> I was wondering about that. For the past twenty years, I've used a small
> Makita pad sander. I've just recently bought a DeWalt orbital 8 hole
> sander
> with attached dust collector (which I have yet to use).
> 1) I was wondering if through experience (feel, touch, sound, whatever)
> one
> can realize that it's time to replace the sandpaper
My first indicator is that it seems to take a bit longer to get the job
done, I feel the work. Then I pick the sander up and feel the paper.
and 2) aside from the
> small dust collection bag becoming filled, is there any greater benefit to
> connecting it to a shop vac instead?
Probably better dust control, the supply of suction is endless. Next, the
sander pretty much stays clean, even when sanding something like face frames
when the sander hangs over the edge of the work. A warning however, you may
need to clamp down small pieces, variable speed on the vac is almost a must.
You can have too much suction and that will actually work against you. You
want just enough suction to keep the area clear of dust.
YMMV. Festool sanders blow air through the center of the paper out to the
outer holes which suck up the dust.
On Mar 30, 7:25=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote:
>
> Then there is that little known problem that Hook & Loop and Velcro do
> not always play nice together. =A0I seem to recall, there is also a
> third player in the H&L business, again, a wee bit different.
>
> The Festool H&L grabs Mirka Abranet like dog snot to a screen door,
> some of the pads on other sanders, such as Ridgid, not so much. The
> Lee Valley replacement hook pad, doesn't hang onto all papers either.
>
> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> SFWIW, Klingspor H&L works well with Bosch 3727.
>
Das ist ein Deutsche Konspiracy!!!
Palm and orbital are really different animals. The orbital will take
off more material but with a light hand it can do generally the same
job as a palm and is therefore more versatile.
Hook and loop is the way to go. The pad portion on th sander can be
replaced after it wears out. Your other option is the stickem variety
and not good. No one has invented a way to use regular paper on a
round orbital yet that I have seen.
All things being equal, go for the most amps you can get for the
dollar.
On Mar 30, 11:38=A0am, Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> It died.
>
> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Guarino
True, but the sander that broke was a palm sander that the OP said was
adequate for his use.
"Ed Edelenbos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Russ Stanton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I've looked at most messages in this thread and I am not sure why no one
>> has mentioned the samll Bosch palm sander. You tear a regular sheet of
>> sandpaper in fourths, the grippers on the Bosch hold it very tight and it
>> is very easy to load. Use the provided punch to make holes in the paper
>> after it is on the sander, attach it to a vac and you're in business. I
>> use this for most all sanding and it works great.
>> Russ
>
> Probably because the orig. question (see below) was for a random orbital.
> Those quarter sheet sanders are orbital, and they can leave tiny swirls on
> the work if you're not careful. Random orbit sanders can (and tend to)
> give a better result, for me. YMMV.
>
> Ed
>
>
>> "Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
>>> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
>>> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
>>> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>>>
>>> It died.
>>>
>>> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
>>> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>>>
>>> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
>>> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>>>
>>> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
>>> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>>>
>>> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
>>> something for under $100.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> Greg Guarino
>>
"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> It died.
>
> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Guarino
I have several sanders:
Milwaukee 6010 orbital 1/2 sheet
Makita BO4556 1/4 sheet
Porter Cable 7336, 6" ROS, (PSA)
Ridgid 26001, 5" ROS, (hook & loop)
Ridgid 2611, 6", ROS, " "
Bosch 3727, 6", " " "
Milwaukee 6021-21, 5", ROS (H & L)
plus belt sanders of various sizes.
The sheet sanders, bought before the ROS were widely available, rarely gets
used.
The Milwaukee ROS gets the *most* use.
The Porter Cable is the most aggressive, (I believe it's because the
abrasive sheet is more firmly attached, but that's just MHO)
I *think* you would be most satisfied with the Milwaukee 6021 (but that's
just MHO)
Max
On Mar 30, 5:53=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> > unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> > last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> > was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> > It died.
>
> > I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> > use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> > Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> > if I'm buying something new anyway...+
>
> NO not too small. =A0 I have been using that size for 20+ years. =A0Rando=
m orbit
> sanders can ve very agressive so large is not needed to cover a large are=
a
> quick.
>
>
>
> > Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> > regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> You want to up grade from regular paper. =A0Why! =A0Because regular paper=
will
> never fit as tightly as hook =A0and loop or PSA backed paper. =A0Why is t=
his
> improtant? =A0Becase all of the action og the sander and paper is transmi=
tted
> to the work. =A0Regular clamp fit paper tends to permit the sander pad to=
not
> transfer all the action to the paper and work. =A0In many cases the paper=
will
> simply grab the work and let the sander vibrate on the back side of the
> paper and often the only work being done is when you are moving the sande=
r.
>
Excellent point. As per usual. (Well.. other than *cough* SSKK
*cough*....)
.
.
.
:-)
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> need to clamp down small pieces, variable speed on the vac is almost a
must.
> You can have too much suction and that will actually work against you.
You
> want just enough suction to keep the area clear of dust.
Ok, thanks. Fortunately, I did buy the variable speed ROS.
http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=9434
On Apr 1, 3:29=A0pm, "Russ Stanton" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've looked at most messages in this thread and I am not sure why no one =
has
> mentioned the samll Bosch palm sander. You tear a regular sheet of sandpa=
per
> in fourths, the grippers on the Bosch hold it very tight and it is very e=
asy
> to load. Use the provided punch to make holes in the paper after it is on
> the sander, attach it to a vac and you're in business. I use this for mos=
t
> all sanding and it works great.
> Russ"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> > unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> > last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> > was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> > It died.
>
> > I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> > use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> > Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> > if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> > Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> > regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> > Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> > something for under $100.
>
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> > Greg Guarino
I have one of these:
1297DK Bosch. Just love it.
On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:38:21 GMT, Greg Guarino <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
>unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
>last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
>was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
>It died.
>
>I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
>use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
>Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
>if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
>Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
>regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
>Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
>something for under $100.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Greg Guarino
Milwaulkee makes an excellent ROS.
Small projects, small sanders,
Big projects, big sanders.
There are ROS that use self-sick sandpapers. The hook-and-loop type
is better for changing papers quickly and better at being reusable.
Greg Guarino wrote:
> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> It died.
>
> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Guarino
I've been watching this thread with interest, and I'm really intrigued
that no one has mentioned air power. A couple of years ago a fellow
woodworker turned me on to Dynabrade sanders and they're such a joy to
use that I've all but thrown away my electric sanders:
http://www.dynabrade.com/dyn09/content.php?page=lit
or more specifically:
http://www.dynabrade.com/pdf/lit/D0701Sect/D0701_pg44-59ROS.pdf
The models I'm familiar with are the "Dynorbital-Spirit" and "Dynorbital
Supreme".
Both styles use PSA (stick-on) paper which I've found to be cheap and
easy to use (even though most people here seem to dislike it), and with
a little double-sided tape you can use almost any sandpaper you danged
well please.
But arguments about the style of sandpaper aside, it's the FEEL of these
babies that will get you hooked. They are *much* lighter than their
electric counterparts, and their low profile and center of gravity
practically makes fatigue a non-issue. You do need a fairly substantial
air compressor to run them (the Supreme eats a LOT of air; the Spirit is
not nearly so hungry), but if you have the air power I would give these
sanders serious consideration. Lots of power, and the speed is
infinitely adjustable (up to the maximum of 12,000 RPM), first with an
adjustment knob to regulate the incoming air pressure, then on demand by
varying the amount of palm pressure you apply to the main lever.
An excellent example of a quality American made product built to last a
lifetime, but the company also offers parts and repair kits if you do
manage to wear something out.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On Mar 31, 9:45=A0am, Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> > "Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:fXgAl.11120$%[email protected]...
>
> >> I've been watching this thread with interest, and I'm really intrigued
> >> that no one has mentioned air power.
>
> > Did you miss the opening statements,
>
> > =A0I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf=
unit
> > or some other "box with face frame" level of project.
>
> Well no, but since when have people in this forum ever refrained from
> going off on a tangent? =A0:-) =A0This thread's already full of that...
>
> --
> For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism.
> To reply, eat the taco.http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Especially since everything is Clinton's fault.
Greg Guarino wrote:
...
> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
...
I'd recommend the 5" for casual/occasional use.
I'm partial to the PC although I don't like the new revisions as well as
those of roughly 10 years ago. But, if you only use it occasionally for
relatively short periods at a time you'll probably not ever observe the
primary problem of the pad "brake" -- it's just an o-ring around a fixed
stud. W/ continuous use the friction heats the sucker to the point of
discomfort and fries bearings early. I remove it first thing on a new one.
As opposed to the other two earlier posts, I prefer the PSA for the bulk
of the work although if one changes grits frequently H&L has some
advantage. Again, for light/infrequent use, the cost of abrasive is
probably of no concern but H&L is roughly 50% more than PSA and w/ heavy
use it adds up.
I keep about three and have both H&L and PSA pads for at least two of
them so can simply switch at a whim depending on what am doing at the time.
Overall, they're basically throwaway items -- if at all possible go to a
place and handle them; comfort and feel and convenience of on/off switch
is a biggie. I personally haven't found any other that is nearly as
comfortable ergonomically as the PC and its knockoffs. Many of the
others are taller, have sharper corners, lousy switch designs or other
pita details...
--
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "dpb" wrote:
>
>
>> ..... the cost of abrasive is probably of no concern but H&L is
>> roughly 50% more than PSA and w/ heavy use it adds up.
>
> If you pay a 50% premium for H&L, somebody saw you coming.
Klingspor, typically. Been a while since needed to reorder I
checked--seems closer than I recalled at the moment; about 25-30%
differential. Not huge unless use a lot as we were when prepping the
barn...
--
Lew Hodgett wrote:
...
> 100pc/grit/box are less than $25/box for 6" H&L.
...
I've never found a catalog number for H&L for more than 50/box at
Klingspor (nor for Mirka from Woodworkers Supply or others as well) --
that's part of the problem making the price differential ime.
It does seem that the differential isn't as great as was from a number
of years ago when were going thru so much, though...hard to believe that
was 5 years ago now--where _does_ the time go??? :)
--
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "dpb" wrote:
>> I've never found a catalog number for H&L for more than 50/box at
>> Klingspor (nor for Mirka from Woodworkers Supply or others as
>> well) --
>> that's part of the problem making the price differential ime.
>
>
> That's retail.
>
> They have an industrial section if you order as a business.
I'm sure that's useful for the OP who was self-described as an
infrequent woodworker... :)
--
dpb wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "dpb" wrote:
>>> I've never found a catalog number for H&L for more than 50/box at
>>> Klingspor (nor for Mirka from Woodworkers Supply or others as
>>> well) --
>>> that's part of the problem making the price differential ime.
>>
>>
>> That's retail.
>>
>> They have an industrial section if you order as a business.
>
> I'm sure that's useful for the OP who was self-described as an
> infrequent woodworker... :)
Doesn't mean he doesn't have a business license. One doesn't have to have a
_woodworking_ business to have a business license.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "dpb" wrote:
>
>> I'm sure that's useful for the OP who was self-described as an
>> infrequent woodworker... :)
>
> The O/P's issue wasn't consumption, but rather cost which is the turn
> our conversation had taken.
Actually, OP only raised the cost on the initial purchase--which is
where the point I made that H&L is more expensive than PSA came
from--and on which I said it probably doesn't make a lot of difference
_UNLESS_ there's high consumption but it is a factor to consider.
And, yes, I'll agree take lashes about the 50% number if it makes you
feel better...
--
On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:31:42 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Apr 1, 3:29 pm, "Russ Stanton" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I've looked at most messages in this thread and I am not sure why no one has
>> mentioned the samll Bosch palm sander. You tear a regular sheet of sandpaper
>> in fourths, the grippers on the Bosch hold it very tight and it is very easy
>> to load. Use the provided punch to make holes in the paper after it is on
>> the sander, attach it to a vac and you're in business. I use this for most
>> all sanding and it works great.
>> Russ"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
>> > unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
>> > last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
>> > was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>>
>> > It died.
>>
>> > I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
>> > use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>>
>> > Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
>> > if I'm buying something new anyway...
>>
>> > Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
>> > regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>>
>> > Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
>> > something for under $100.
>>
>> > Thanks in advance.
>>
>> > Greg Guarino
Getting here late on this one but my 2 cents.....
Have used over the past 8 years Porter Cables, Bosch, Dewalt, (and
seen them all die), now I have a Milwaukee. They were all fine when
new, but not one (with the possible exception of the Dewalt) more than
a year or so before developing problems.
The Milwaukee is very nice! Better, in my opinion, than any of the
others were when new. For about $80 it's where you should start
looking. No doubt you can get a better sander (Festool ?) but for lots
more $$$$.
Oh, and Milwaukee's tools have a 5 years warranty.
Lenny
I've looked at most messages in this thread and I am not sure why no one has
mentioned the samll Bosch palm sander. You tear a regular sheet of sandpaper
in fourths, the grippers on the Bosch hold it very tight and it is very easy
to load. Use the provided punch to make holes in the paper after it is on
the sander, attach it to a vac and you're in business. I use this for most
all sanding and it works great.
Russ
"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> It died.
>
> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Guarino
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:22:25 -0500, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:25:13 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>like dog snot to a screen door
>>
>> That's a new one on me. I assume you mean that it holds well, but
>> lacking both dogs and knee-height screens, I can't be sure.
>>
>> Thanks to all for the great info. A high traffic group like this is a
>> real boon to a hobbyist with more questions than skills.
>>
>> I now feel confident that a ROS with hook & loop will suit my needs.
>> Thanks especially to the person who explained why H&L is functionally
>> superior to clamped plain paper.
>>
>> Greg Guarino
>
>
>Now that you have made your decision, let me also warn you about hook and
>loop and PSA sand paper. ;~) Because this type sand paper wears out on the
>business side and not all over it is often difficult to determine when to
>change out to a new sheet. Clamp on paper often simply falls off or tears
>and that is your indicator.
I'm sure I'll need to develop a new "feel" for a new type of tool, but
even with my modest skill set, it was only in my laziest moments that
I waited for the paper to actually tear before I replaced it. It's
self-defeating laziness too, leaving on a piece that's as effective as
typing paper only lengthens the job.
Thanks again.
Greg Guarino
> With the PSA and hook and loop papers the
>minerals typically wear out and the paper may appear to still be in very
>good shape. Even worn out minerals can look brand new especially if you use
>an attached vacuum.
>Several ways to determine if you need to change sheets.
>
>1. Does the sander seem to not be working as fast?
>2. Have you been using the paper more than 15 minutes?
>3. With your finger rub the mineral surface of the paper you are using and
>compare its sharpness to a brand new sheet, same grit.
>
>If you buy a sander with a port to use with a shop vac your paper will last
>longer and most likely your paper will look fine although it may be worn out
>after a period of sanding. This is one trait that I had a hard time getting
>use to when I switched to Festool sanders and use the vac at the same time.
>
>
>
>
"Robatoy" wrote:
Then there is that little known problem that Hook & Loop and Velcro do
not always play nice together. I seem to recall, there is also a
third player in the H&L business, again, a wee bit different.
The Festool H&L grabs Mirka Abranet like dog snot to a screen door,
some of the pads on other sanders, such as Ridgid, not so much. The
Lee Valley replacement hook pad, doesn't hang onto all papers either.
>================================
SFWIW, Klingspor H&L works well with Bosch 3727.
If you do any work with a foam pad, you are stuck with PSA, with 3M
"green stikit" being the best.
Lew
"dpb" wrote:
> Klingspor, typically. Been a while since needed to reorder I
> checked--seems closer than I recalled at the moment; about 25-30%
> differential. Not huge unless use a lot as we were when prepping
> the barn...
I use Klingspor.
100pc/grit/box are less than $25/box for 6" H&L.
The only exception is 40 grit which is maybe $26-$28/box.
Lew
Greg Guarino wrote:
> I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf
> unit or some other "box with face frame" level of project. Up until
> last week I used a palm sander that I've had for maybe 15 years. It
> was nothing special, but seemed adequate for my low level use.
>
> It died.
>
> I see a lot of these random orbit units, mostly 5". They seem to all
> use hook and loop paper. I have questions.
>
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was, but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...
>
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
>
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Guarino
I concur with Phisherman. I bought a Milwalkee random orbit sander with
hook and loop, or my wife did for my birthday, a few months back. My only
complaint is, "Why didn't I do this years ago!" I have a Dewalt palm
sander than now is like "Mr. Mop" on the Swifter commercials.
Deb
"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:fXgAl.11120$%[email protected]...
>
> I've been watching this thread with interest, and I'm really intrigued
> that no one has mentioned air power.
Did you miss the opening statements,
I'm not a real woodworker, but every once in a while I build a shelf unit
or some other "box with face frame" level of project.
"Steve Turner" wrote:
> I've been watching this thread with interest, and I'm really
> intrigued that no one has mentioned air power. A couple of years
> ago a fellow woodworker turned me on to Dynabrade sanders and
> they're such a joy to use that I've all but thrown away my electric
> sanders:
<snip>
> You do need a fairly substantial air compressor to run them (the
> Supreme eats a LOT of air; the Spirit is not nearly so hungry), but
> if you have the air power I would give these sanders serious
> consideration. Lots of power, and the speed is infinitely
> adjustable (up to the maximum of 12,000 RPM), first with an
> adjustment knob to regulate the incoming air pressure, then on
> demand by varying the amount of palm pressure you apply to the main
> lever.
As you note, air supply is the issue, in the range of 15 SCFM.
For a typical home shop with only single phase power, a 5HP,
240V,1PH,60HZ motor driving a 2 stage compressor setting on a verticl
80 gal tank.
PRICE: About $1,200 + installation which will require a 2P-40A c'bkr
and #8 AWG minimum, (#6 AWG preferred)..
It gets pricey in a hurry.
Lew
"Greg Guarino" wrote:
> Is the 5" size too small? It's no smaller than my palm sander was,
> but
> if I'm buying something new anyway...
5" will get a lot of work done.
If you are an ocassional user as you suggest, it will certainly be
acceptable.
> Is hook & loop the only option, or are there decent sanders that use
> regular paper? Which do you prefer?
Your choices are H&L and PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive).
H&L paper is slightly more expensive by a small amount.
Personally, I prefer H&L since trying to keep a PSA surface clean is
more of a PITA than I am willing to accept.
Lew
> Are there any particular models you recommend? I'm hoping to get
> something for under $100.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Guarino