On Dec 24, 2016, [email protected] wrote
(in article<[email protected]>):
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 10:00:15 -0800, Electric Comet
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > anyone know if would glue breaks down at hi temps
> >
> > say 200-300 f
> Depends what kind of "wood glue".
>
> Hide glue melts at 150 to 180F.
> Casein glue should not be heated beyond about 150F
> PVAgoes "plastic" at about 160F
>
> So the short answer to your question is "yes, many wood glues will
> fail well below 200 to 300 degrees F"
Also, what do we mean by âfailsâ?
I have two heavy wooden doors bought 10 or 15 years ago that quickly sagged
trapezoidal in the summer heat - the Sun hits them in the afternoon. The
original doors were ratty, but never sagged. The problem is that the door
manufacturer used some kind of plastic based glue (Titebond?) that creeps in
the heat of the day, which is inappropriate in an exterior door. My solution
is a turnbuckle brace, but that door manufacturer needs to use a suitable
glue. Like Resorcinol or epoxy - something that chemically sets, versus being
thermoplastic.
Joe Gwinn
On Dec 24, 2016, whit3rd wrote
(in article<[email protected]>):
> On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 11:59:38 AM UTC-8, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> > On Dec 24, 2016, [email protected] wrote
>
> > I have two heavy wooden doors bought 10 or 15 years ago that quickly sagged
> > trapezoidal in the summer heat - the Sun hits them in the afternoon. The
> > original doors were ratty, but never sagged. The problem is that the door
> > manufacturer used some kind of plastic based glue (Titebond?) that creeps...
>
> If the joints were tight, there wouldn't be creep at any reasonable
> temperatures.
The joints appear to be cope and stick,which depends entirely on the glue,
even if the glue line is tight.
Even mortise and tenon will rack unless the tenons fit the sockets perfectly
on all four faces; this is unlikely in US production - too fiddly.
> Methinks the manufacturer didn't use good construction OR good glue.
It looks to be the glue, but I did not take the door apart.
While Titebond is a very good general-purpose glue, Iâm betting it will
creep quickly at 150 F.
"Polyvinyl Acetate (PVA) Glue: Any glue consisting primarily of polyvinyl
acetate polymer. This category includes most traditional white glues and more
advanced yellow aliphatic resin glues. Although PVA glues can vary in
strength, flexibility, water-resistance and sandability, they offer good
performance, cleanup with water and are non-toxic. Because PVA glues tend to
âcreepâ, or slowly stretch under long-term loads, they are not
recommended for structural applications.â
.<http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF683_GlueGuideTB.sflb.ashx
>
Elsewhere on the Titebond website, it says that their hide glue offers
superior creep resistance. As do epoxy and resorcinol.
> Did the rail/stile joints open and show a crack?
Yes. The cracks are tapered exactly as one would expect if the jamb side
stile dropped down, but stayed parallel to the hinge side stile. The
turnbuckles prevented further creep.
Joe Gwinn
On Dec 24, 2016, [email protected] wrote
(in article<[email protected]>):
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 17:45:47 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 24, 2016, whit3rd wrote
> > (in article<[email protected]>):
> >
> > > On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 11:59:38 AM UTC-8, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> > > > On Dec 24, 2016, [email protected] wrote
> > >
> > > > I have two heavy wooden doors bought 10 or 15 years ago that quickly
> > > > sagged
> > > > trapezoidal in the summer heat - the Sun hits them in the afternoon. The
> > > > original doors were ratty, but never sagged. The problem is that the door
> > > > manufacturer used some kind of plastic based glue (Titebond?) that
> > > > creeps...
> > >
> > > If the joints were tight, there wouldn't be creep at any reasonable
> > > temperatures.
> >
> > The joints appear to be cope and stick,which depends entirely on the glue,
> > even if the glue line is tight.
> >
> > Even mortise and tenon will rack unless the tenons fit the sockets perfectly
> > on all four faces; this is unlikely in US production - too fiddly.
> >
> >
> > > Methinks the manufacturer didn't use good construction OR good glue.
> >
> > It looks to be the glue, but I did not take the door apart.
> >
> > While Titebond is a very good general-purpose glue, Iâm betting it will
> > creep quickly at 150 F.
> >
> > "Polyvinyl Acetate (PVA) Glue: Any glue consisting primarily of polyvinyl
> > acetate polymer. This category includes most traditional white glues and
> > more
> > advanced yellow aliphatic resin glues. Although PVA glues can vary in
> > strength, flexibility, water-resistance and sandability, they offer good
> > performance, cleanup with water and are non-toxic. Because PVA glues tend to
> > âcreepâ, or slowly stretch under long-term loads, they are not
> > recommended for structural applications.â
> > .<http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF683_GlueGuideTB.sflb.as
> > hx
> >
> > Elsewhere on the Titebond website, it says that their hide glue offers
> > superior creep resistance. As do epoxy and resorcinol.
> >
> >
> > > Did the rail/stile joints open and show a crack?
> >
> > Yes. The cracks are tapered exactly as one would expect if the jamb side
> > stile dropped down, but stayed parallel to the hinge side stile. The
> > turnbuckles prevented further creep.
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
> Easy to fix. Drill and pin with good hardwood dowels, the way the old
> doors were made - -
Itâs a good idea, although the old-timers used hide glue as well.
Joe Gwinn
On Jan 11, 2017, Electric Comet wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 14:40:28 -0500
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Depends what kind of "wood glue".
>
> tbii
Huh?
> > Hide glue melts at 150 to 180F.
> > Casein glue should not be heated beyond about 150F
>
> hide glue and casein are the same or no
Different. Only Hide Glue is much used these days.
A special-purpose variant is Fish Glue.
These are for indoor uses only, not being moisture proof.
> > PVAgoes "plastic" at about 160F
>
> which glues are pva
All the milky white or yellow emulsion types, that resemble and often smell
like Elmers Glue.
> > So the short answer to your question is "yes, many wood glues will
> > fail well below 200 to 300 degrees F"
>
> more research for me then
The research is simple - the manufacturerâs data sheet will say what the
operating temperature range is.
If you want to cut to the chase, use only glues intended for fabricating
wooden boats, as these will resist both temperature and moisture, and are
strong and creep-resistant.
In for instance the magazine Wooden Boat, you will find everything necessary.
There are also numerous web sites. These glues can be bought online, and in
West Marine stores.<https://www.westmarine.com/>
Joe Gwinn
On Jan 17, 2017, Electric Comet wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 14:04:11 -0500
> Joseph Gwinn <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Huh?
>
> titebondii
>
> > Different. Only Hide Glue is much used these days.
>
> everybody has a bottle of hide glue around
>
> > All the milky white or yellow emulsion types, that resemble and often
> > smell like Elmers Glue.
>
> i see
Itâs best the leave the context in above, so people can understand what is
being responded to.
> > If you want to cut to the chase, use only glues intended for
> > fabricating wooden boats, as these will resist both temperature and
> > moisture, and are strong and creep-resistant.
>
> thought wood boats were made so that the wood swelled and created
> the water proof joint but had to be wet to stay sealed
>
> but maybe that is ancient technique
Yes. Even in the Viking Age, they caulked the seams with wool saturated with
beeswax. In the Age of Sail, it was oakum (rotten rope) driven in with a
caulking iron and hammer.
More recently, people use Resorcinol or Epoxy. See Wooden Boat.
> > In for instance the magazine Wooden Boat, you will find everything
> > necessary. There are also numerous web sites. These glues can be
> > bought online, and in West Marine stores.<https://www.westmarine.com/>
>
> westmarine has the highest prices almost always but sometimes there are
> deals
>
> glues are not often discounted either
Glue is not a good place to be saving money. Itâs like a tailor who uses
expensive fabric and cheap thread.
In the other thread, yes the wooden door sagging trapezoidal in the summer
heat is a failure. There are no marks on the door saying who made it, or
Iâd be lecturing them.
Joe Gwinn
On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 11:59:38 AM UTC-8, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> On Dec 24, 2016, [email protected] wrote
> I have two heavy wooden doors bought 10 or 15 years ago that quickly sagged
> trapezoidal in the summer heat - the Sun hits them in the afternoon. The
> original doors were ratty, but never sagged. The problem is that the door
> manufacturer used some kind of plastic based glue (Titebond?) that creeps...
If the joints were tight, there wouldn't be creep at any reasonable temperatures.
Methinks the manufacturer didn't use good construction OR good glue.
Did the rail/stile joints open and show a crack?
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 10:00:15 -0800, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>anyone know if would glue breaks down at hi temps
Sure. Wood breaks down at high temperature.
>
>say 200-300 f
>
...something like 451F.
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 17:45:47 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Dec 24, 2016, whit3rd wrote
>(in article<[email protected]>):
>
>> On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 11:59:38 AM UTC-8, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>> > On Dec 24, 2016, [email protected] wrote
>>
>> > I have two heavy wooden doors bought 10 or 15 years ago that quickly sagged
>> > trapezoidal in the summer heat - the Sun hits them in the afternoon. The
>> > original doors were ratty, but never sagged. The problem is that the door
>> > manufacturer used some kind of plastic based glue (Titebond?) that creeps...
>>
>> If the joints were tight, there wouldn't be creep at any reasonable
>> temperatures.
>
>The joints appear to be cope and stick,which depends entirely on the glue,
>even if the glue line is tight.
>
>Even mortise and tenon will rack unless the tenons fit the sockets perfectly
>on all four faces; this is unlikely in US production - too fiddly.
>
>
>> Methinks the manufacturer didn't use good construction OR good glue.
>
>It looks to be the glue, but I did not take the door apart.
>
>While Titebond is a very good general-purpose glue, Im betting it will
>creep quickly at 150 F.
>
>"Polyvinyl Acetate (PVA) Glue: Any glue consisting primarily of polyvinyl
>acetate polymer. This category includes most traditional white glues and more
>advanced yellow aliphatic resin glues. Although PVA glues can vary in
>strength, flexibility, water-resistance and sandability, they offer good
>performance, cleanup with water and are non-toxic. Because PVA glues tend to
>creep, or slowly stretch under long-term loads, they are not
>recommended for structural applications.
>.<http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF683_GlueGuideTB.sflb.ashx
>>
>
>Elsewhere on the Titebond website, it says that their hide glue offers
>superior creep resistance. As do epoxy and resorcinol.
>
>
>> Did the rail/stile joints open and show a crack?
>
>Yes. The cracks are tapered exactly as one would expect if the jamb side
>stile dropped down, but stayed parallel to the hinge side stile. The
>turnbuckles prevented further creep.
>
>Joe Gwinn
Easy to fix. Drill and pin with good hardwood dowels, the way the old
doors were made - -
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 14:40:28 -0500
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Depends what kind of "wood glue".
>
> tbii
>
> > Hide glue melts at 150 to 180F.
> > Casein glue should not be heated beyond about 150F
>
> hide glue and casein are the same or no
No. Casein is milk-based. Hard to find in the
market now but you can make your own. Formerly
(before WWII) was used for aircraft
construction.
Hide is, well, hide (and hoof and fish and other
things) based, has the advantages that it can be
disassembled with heat and doesn't have to be
completely removed to effect a repair, as long
as the repair is also with hide glue.
>
> > PVAgoes "plastic" at about 160F
>
> which glues are pva
Most of the common "wood glues"--Elmer's,
Titebond, etc.
> > So the short answer to your question is "yes, many wood glues will
> > fail well below 200 to 300 degrees F"
>
> more research for me then
On 2016-12-24, Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote:
> anyone know if would glue breaks down at hi temps
Depends. Is "would glue" anything like "wood glue"? ;)
nb
On 2017-01-15, J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
> No. Casein is milk-based. Hard to find in the
> market now but you can make your own. Formerly
> (before WWII) was used for aircraft
> construction.
Xcelite tools usta be sold in casein capped sets, as late as the
1980's. You can smell it. Casein plastic smells like sour milk:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Xcelite-PS-120-Nut-Driver-Set-11-Pieces-with-case-/302192976026?hash=item465c1ae09a:g:s-UAAOSwt5hYZZix>
***OR***
http://tinyurl.com/hkfp45y
nb
What were the handles made of - same stuff ? If I leave mine in very
hot conditions and moisture - they turn snow white. I put them in my
RF vibration tank with some Green cleaner and they sparkle clean later.
Martin
On 1/15/2017 9:08 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2017-01-15, J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> No. Casein is milk-based. Hard to find in the
>> market now but you can make your own. Formerly
>> (before WWII) was used for aircraft
>> construction.
>
> Xcelite tools usta be sold in casein capped sets, as late as the
> 1980's. You can smell it. Casein plastic smells like sour milk:
>
> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Xcelite-PS-120-Nut-Driver-Set-11-Pieces-with-case-/302192976026?hash=item465c1ae09a:g:s-UAAOSwt5hYZZix>
>
> ***OR***
>
> http://tinyurl.com/hkfp45y
>
>
> nb
>
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 23:04:43 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Dec 24, 2016, [email protected] wrote
>(in article<[email protected]>):
>
>> On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 17:45:47 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > On Dec 24, 2016, whit3rd wrote
>> > (in article<[email protected]>):
>> >
>> > > On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 11:59:38 AM UTC-8, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>> > > > On Dec 24, 2016, [email protected] wrote
>> > >
>> > > > I have two heavy wooden doors bought 10 or 15 years ago that quickly
>> > > > sagged
>> > > > trapezoidal in the summer heat - the Sun hits them in the afternoon. The
>> > > > original doors were ratty, but never sagged. The problem is that the door
>> > > > manufacturer used some kind of plastic based glue (Titebond?) that
>> > > > creeps...
>> > >
>> > > If the joints were tight, there wouldn't be creep at any reasonable
>> > > temperatures.
>> >
>> > The joints appear to be cope and stick,which depends entirely on the glue,
>> > even if the glue line is tight.
>> >
>> > Even mortise and tenon will rack unless the tenons fit the sockets perfectly
>> > on all four faces; this is unlikely in US production - too fiddly.
>> >
>> >
>> > > Methinks the manufacturer didn't use good construction OR good glue.
>> >
>> > It looks to be the glue, but I did not take the door apart.
>> >
>> > While Titebond is a very good general-purpose glue, Im betting it will
>> > creep quickly at 150 F.
>> >
>> > "Polyvinyl Acetate (PVA) Glue: Any glue consisting primarily of polyvinyl
>> > acetate polymer. This category includes most traditional white glues and
>> > more
>> > advanced yellow aliphatic resin glues. Although PVA glues can vary in
>> > strength, flexibility, water-resistance and sandability, they offer good
>> > performance, cleanup with water and are non-toxic. Because PVA glues tend to
>> > creep, or slowly stretch under long-term loads, they are not
>> > recommended for structural applications.
>> > .<http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF683_GlueGuideTB.sflb.as
>> > hx
>> >
>> > Elsewhere on the Titebond website, it says that their hide glue offers
>> > superior creep resistance. As do epoxy and resorcinol.
>> >
>> >
>> > > Did the rail/stile joints open and show a crack?
>> >
>> > Yes. The cracks are tapered exactly as one would expect if the jamb side
>> > stile dropped down, but stayed parallel to the hinge side stile. The
>> > turnbuckles prevented further creep.
>> >
>> > Joe Gwinn
>> Easy to fix. Drill and pin with good hardwood dowels, the way the old
>> doors were made - -
>
>Its a good idea, although the old-timers used hide glue as well.
>
>Joe Gwinn
As well as dovetails instead of straight Mortise and Tenon
construction. Some of those early doors wouls stay together and square
with no glue or metallic fasteners.
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 10:00:15 -0800, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>anyone know if would glue breaks down at hi temps
>
>say 200-300 f
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Depends what kind of "wood glue".
Hide glue melts at 150 to 180F.
Casein glue should not be heated beyond about 150F
PVAgoes "plastic" at about 160F
So the short answer to your question is "yes, many wood glues will
fail well below 200 to 300 degrees F"
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 14:40:28 -0500
[email protected] wrote:
> Depends what kind of "wood glue".
tbii
> Hide glue melts at 150 to 180F.
> Casein glue should not be heated beyond about 150F
hide glue and casein are the same or no
> PVAgoes "plastic" at about 160F
which glues are pva
> So the short answer to your question is "yes, many wood glues will
> fail well below 200 to 300 degrees F"
more research for me then
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 17:45:47 -0500
Joseph Gwinn <[email protected]> wrote:
> Elsewhere on the Titebond website, it says that their hide glue
> offers superior creep resistance. As do epoxy and resorcinol.
may be but hide glue not good outdoors unless you have good moisture
barrier finish
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 14:59:31 -0500
Joseph Gwinn <[email protected]> wrote:
> Also, what do we mean by âfailsâ?
>
> I have two heavy wooden doors bought 10 or 15 years ago that quickly
> sagged trapezoidal in the summer heat - the Sun hits them in the
that is a failure
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 14:04:11 -0500
Joseph Gwinn <[email protected]> wrote:
> Huh?
titebondii
> Different. Only Hide Glue is much used these days.
everybody has a bottle of hide glue around
> All the milky white or yellow emulsion types, that resemble and often
> smell like Elmers Glue.
i see
> If you want to cut to the chase, use only glues intended for
> fabricating wooden boats, as these will resist both temperature and
> moisture, and are strong and creep-resistant.
thought wood boats were made so that the wood swelled and created
the water proof joint but had to be wet to stay sealed
but maybe that is ancient technique
> In for instance the magazine Wooden Boat, you will find everything
> necessary. There are also numerous web sites. These glues can be
> bought online, and in West Marine stores.<https://www.westmarine.com/>
westmarine has the highest prices almost always but sometimes there are
deals
glues are not often discounted either
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:59:01 -0800, Electric Comet wrote:
> thought wood boats were made so that the wood swelled and created the
> water proof joint but had to be wet to stay sealed
>
> but maybe that is ancient technique
>
Seems to me that one of the crucial features of boats is keeping the
water out! Almost as soon as multi-plank boats began to be built, people
used pitch or resins to seal the joints. Speaking as an amateur boat
builder, you *do not* want your seams expanding and contracting at all,
much less at different rates, depending on whether it rained last night.
Cheers,
Colin