I'm staining cherry to use as door and window casings, and blotchiness is an
on and off problem. I understand that cherry is inherently problematic with
uneven staining. I'm using a liberal coat of Minwax wood conditioner, and
about a half hour following up with the first coat of a light shade of
stain. The first 2 boards turned out fine, the third is unusable (Extremely
blotchy). I tried again, with only one board turning out well. Is there a
better way to condition cherry prior to staining. I read an article in the
current American Woodworker about cherry, and they pretty much advocate
using a couple coats of a gel topcoat from General finishes, followed by a
coat or two of gel stain. Before I start going through a lot of cherry
trying to fine tune the finishing process (and yes, I tried it on a piece of
scrap first, which looked fine), any ideas out there on sealing the cherry?
Maybe a wash coat of shellac cut with alcohol? Ideas??? Many thanks to
anyone able to help, Mark
On Jan 26, 12:11 am, "mark" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:8fbb8174-fd7d-4de3-99be-63e611437ae3@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...> On Jan 25, 12:18 pm, "mark" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I'm staining cherry
>
> > Alert! To the pitchforks and torches!
>
> > -Kevin
>
> I just wanted to ever so slightly enhance the color of the cherry. But it
> looks like a clear finish is the way to go. Please don't hurt me......
Give it a few months, it's self enhancing :)
-Kevin
On Jan 25, 12:18 pm, "mark" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm staining cherry
Alert! To the pitchforks and torches!
-Kevin
....A washcoat is a coat of thinned finish that's applied to bare wood to
partially seal the surface before a stain is applied......
I use a washcoat of shellac prior to *clear* finishing of cherry. Here's the
rub.. if I just applied it like any other layer of clear finish I would get
blotchiness. What works for me is to use a very thinned batch (1/2 cut) and
wipe (rag) on as little as possible. A brush would lay down way too much
material. The idea is to *not* give it enough liquid to soak in. Soaking in
= more in some areas (more porous) than others = blotchy. After dry, wipe
lightly with fine sandpaper to knock off any dusticles; repeat.
FWW had an article on mitigating cherry blotchiness recently. They had a
couple other suggestions: Sanding to a 600 grit, and wiping with DNA or MS
prior to finishing to at least identify problem boards.
YMMV
-Steve
mark wrote:
> I'm staining cherry to use as door and window casings, and blotchiness is an
> on and off problem.
There's an article on exactly this topic in the current Popular
Woodworking. Basically, there's no easy answer. Cherry blotches. Not
all boards blotch the same way, sometimes it looks good, sometimes not.
You can use a washcoat of shellac or a conditioner to reduce the
blotching, but that also makes any stain less effective.
Blotching tends to reduce itself over time...the lighter areas darken
with exposure to light.
Chris
This is probably 'way out, but:
has anyone ever tried to darken cherry by heating it? Heres my
anecdotal observation:
When I turn a cherry bowl, the wood seems to darken up as I am hand
sanding with the finer grits. The more heat I feel on my fingers, the
more pronounced it seems to be.
So, what might happen if one used a high speed buffing pad on the
boards pressing hard enough to heat and darken them? Might this blend
the "whatever it is that makes the cherry blotchy" spots?
Pete Stanaitis
----------------
mark wrote:
> I'm staining cherry to use as door and window casings, and blotchiness is an
> on and off problem. I understand that cherry is inherently problematic with
> uneven staining. I'm using a liberal coat of Minwax wood conditioner, and
> about a half hour following up with the first coat of a light shade of
> stain. The first 2 boards turned out fine, the third is unusable (Extremely
> blotchy). I tried again, with only one board turning out well. Is there a
> better way to condition cherry prior to staining. I read an article in the
> current American Woodworker about cherry, and they pretty much advocate
> using a couple coats of a gel topcoat from General finishes, followed by a
> coat or two of gel stain. Before I start going through a lot of cherry
> trying to fine tune the finishing process (and yes, I tried it on a piece of
> scrap first, which looked fine), any ideas out there on sealing the cherry?
> Maybe a wash coat of shellac cut with alcohol? Ideas??? Many thanks to
> anyone able to help, Mark
>
>
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:30:58 -0600, Chris Friesen wrote:
> mark wrote:
>> I'm staining cherry to use as door and window casings, and blotchiness
>> is an on and off problem.
>
> There's an article on exactly this topic in the current Popular
> Woodworking. Basically, there's no easy answer. Cherry blotches. Not
> all boards blotch the same way, sometimes it looks good, sometimes not.
I'm coming in late on this topic, so I apologize if someone else has
already covered what I'm going to suggest.
My favorite method of avoiding blotching is to apply 2 or 3 thin coats of
dewaxed shellac with a pad and then add an alcohol based dye to the next
coat or two of shellac. No pigment particles, therefore no blotching
from that source. And the dye never touches the wood, so no blotching
there either.
And since I've used dewaxed shellac, I can then, if I want, topcoat with
varnish or poly with no problem.
--
It's turtles, all the way down
I hope the following blather is of use.
P D Q
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How to Prevent Blotching Using a Washcoat
What is a Washcoat?
A washcoat is a coat of thinned finish that's applied to bare wood to =
partially seal the surface before a stain is applied. It keeps the stain =
from soaking into the wood and causing blotching. It works well on woods =
like alder, aspen, birch, cherry, and pine. The washcoat is usually made =
with shellac, vinyl sealer, or glu-size; but you can use other finishes =
as long as the stain does not dissolve it. To avoid problems, don't use =
an alcohol reduced dye with a shellac washcoat; a solvent based stain =
(e.g., lacquer stain) with vinyl sealer (oil-based stain is okay); or a =
water-soluble dye or stain with glu-size.=20
Thickness of the Washcoat
Depending on the effect you want and the type of wood and stain you're =
using, you will want to vary the thickness of the washcoat by =
controlling the solids content. Using shellac as an example, the =
approximate solids content (by volume, not weight) of a 2 lb. (2#) cut =
is 16%, a 1# cut is 10%, and a 1/2# cut is 5%. The lower the cut, the =
thinner each coat of shellac will be. The thinner the washcoat is, the =
less it fills the grain and pores of the wood which allows the stain to =
accentuate these features better. On wood with fine grain and pores, =
limiting the thickness of the washcoat is very important to the final =
look.=20
Some woods are more porous than others and some stains are more likely =
to cause blotching. By managing the solids content of the washcoat, you =
can account for and control these variables. Thick oil-base stains =
(e.g., gel stains) and glazes don't soak into the wood and penetrate =
very much so a thin (low solids) washcoat works well with them. Thin, =
penetrating stains soak into the wood deeper and the washcoat needs a =
higher solids content to keep them from blotching. But small variations =
in the solids content can make a significant difference in the =
appearance of the stain. If it's a little too thick, the blotching is =
gone, but the grain and pores aren't accentuated very well and the stain =
doesn't add much color (which may be the look you want!). To get the =
desired look, and be able to repeat it consistently, we have to =
intentionally control the exact solids content of the washcoat.=20
Calculating & Adjusting the Solids Content
To make a washcoat, start by finding out the solids content, by =
volume, of the finish you're using for the washcoat. The manufacturer of =
the finish can provide this information. Don't use the "solids content =
by weight" number that the manufacturer supplies, you need the "solids =
by volume" number.=20
To be effective, the solids content of a washcoat will generally range =
between 3% and 10%. To get good grain and figure definition while using =
a washcoat with a thick oil-base stain, the solids should be around 5%. =
To change our 20% solids finish to a 5% solids finish, we need to add =
the right amount of the proper thinner. For shellac, the thinner is =
alcohol; for vinyl sealer the thinner is lacquer thinner; and water is =
used with glu-size.=20
Applying the Washcoat
Pad, brush, or spray a regular wet coat of the thinned finish on the =
bare wood (after sanding), let it dry, then sand very lightly with a =
very fine grit (e.g., 220, 320, or 400)to smooth the surface. Excessive =
sanding will remove too much of the washcoat and allow the dye or stain =
to soak in and cause blotching. Your application technique will affect =
how much material you deposit on the surface; for example, spraying will =
lay down more than padding. Adjust the solids content to work with your =
application technique.=20
Preventing Blotching on End Grain (including raised panel doors)
End grain on table tops, dressers, cabinets, raised panel doors, etc. =
can absorb a lot more stain than the rest of the wood. That's because =
the end grain exposes the channels that the water that fed the wood used =
to flow through. To keep the end grain from getting EXTRA dark, just use =
a washcoat on it.=20
Start by sanding the end grain up to 220 grit. This will make it =
smoother and help limit how much it absorbs.=20
You can apply the washcoat just to the end grain if that's the only area =
that you need to control stain penetration. Don't worry if the washcoat =
gets on the flat surface of the wood when you apply it to the end =
grain... just let it dry and then sand the flat surfaces using a sander =
or sanding block to remove the sealer. Sand the washcoat very lightly =
with very fine grit paper or a sanding sponge, just enough to smooth it, =
and then stain the entire surface all at once.=20
As always, do a LARGE sample of your finish from start to end before =
starting on your actual piece(s). Small samples can look deceivingly =
good, but on a larger surface it's a disaster! Use the bottom of a table =
top, shelves, or the back of doors if you don't have sufficient scrap to =
work with. In the sample above showing the 2 washcoats, I used the back =
of a door and then sanded it off before I applied the final finish. Make =
sure everything works the way you expected and looks the way you want it =
to. If you're getting blotching, increase the solids content a couple =
percentage points at a time until it goes away.=20
=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How to Pop the Curl in Cherry
A fail-safe finishing method, when you want some blotchiness to =
accentuate the grain=20
Begin by sanding only to P150.=20
Seal endgrain areas with a thin washcoat of shellac.=20
Then flood the wood with oil.=20
Let it cure for a week, then brush or spray on several coats of lacquer. =
Once the lacquer is fully cured, rub out the finish using very fine =
wet-or-dry sandpaper followed by polishing compounds.=20
Don't look for those products at a hardware store or home center, =
though. You're much more likely to find them at an auto-supply store.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> I'm staining cherry to use as door and window casings, and blotchiness =
is an=20
> on and off problem. I understand that cherry is inherently problematic =
with=20
> uneven staining. I'm using a liberal coat of Minwax wood conditioner, =
and=20
> about a half hour following up with the first coat of a light shade of =
> stain. The first 2 boards turned out fine, the third is unusable =
(Extremely=20
> blotchy). I tried again, with only one board turning out well. Is =
there a=20
> better way to condition cherry prior to staining. I read an article in =
the=20
> current American Woodworker about cherry, and they pretty much =
advocate=20
> using a couple coats of a gel topcoat from General finishes, followed =
by a=20
> coat or two of gel stain. Before I start going through a lot of cherry =
> trying to fine tune the finishing process (and yes, I tried it on a =
piece of=20
> scrap first, which looked fine), any ideas out there on sealing the =
cherry?=20
> Maybe a wash coat of shellac cut with alcohol? Ideas??? Many thanks =
to=20
> anyone able to help, Mark=20
>=20
>
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:18:24 -0600, "mark" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm staining cherry to use as door and window casings, and blotchiness is an
>on and off problem. I understand that cherry is inherently problematic with
>uneven staining. I'm using a liberal coat of Minwax wood conditioner, and
>about a half hour following up with the first coat of a light shade of
>stain. The first 2 boards turned out fine, the third is unusable (Extremely
>blotchy). I tried again, with only one board turning out well. Is there a
>better way to condition cherry prior to staining. I read an article in the
>current American Woodworker about cherry, and they pretty much advocate
>using a couple coats of a gel topcoat from General finishes, followed by a
>coat or two of gel stain. Before I start going through a lot of cherry
>trying to fine tune the finishing process (and yes, I tried it on a piece of
>scrap first, which looked fine), any ideas out there on sealing the cherry?
>Maybe a wash coat of shellac cut with alcohol? Ideas??? Many thanks to
>anyone able to help, Mark
>
If you want to stain best not to select cherry or pine. Oak stains
well, maple not too good.
Thanks both of you, I'm going to try this next.
"PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I hope the following blather is of use.
P D Q
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How to Prevent Blotching Using a Washcoat
What is a Washcoat?
A washcoat is a coat of thinned finish that's applied to bare wood to
partially seal the surface before a stain is applied. It keeps the stain
from soaking into the wood and causing blotching. It works well on woods
like alder, aspen, birch, cherry, and pine. The washcoat is usually made
with shellac, vinyl sealer, or glu-size; but you can use other finishes as
long as the stain does not dissolve it. To avoid problems, don't use an
alcohol reduced dye with a shellac washcoat; a solvent based stain (e.g.,
lacquer stain) with vinyl sealer (oil-based stain is okay); or a
water-soluble dye or stain with glu-size.
Thickness of the Washcoat
Depending on the effect you want and the type of wood and stain you're
using, you will want to vary the thickness of the washcoat by controlling
the solids content. Using shellac as an example, the approximate solids
content (by volume, not weight) of a 2 lb. (2#) cut is 16%, a 1# cut is 10%,
and a 1/2# cut is 5%. The lower the cut, the thinner each coat of shellac
will be. The thinner the washcoat is, the less it fills the grain and pores
of the wood which allows the stain to accentuate these features better. On
wood with fine grain and pores, limiting the thickness of the washcoat is
very important to the final look.
Some woods are more porous than others and some stains are more likely to
cause blotching. By managing the solids content of the washcoat, you can
account for and control these variables. Thick oil-base stains (e.g., gel
stains) and glazes don't soak into the wood and penetrate very much so a
thin (low solids) washcoat works well with them. Thin, penetrating stains
soak into the wood deeper and the washcoat needs a higher solids content to
keep them from blotching. But small variations in the solids content can
make a significant difference in the appearance of the stain. If it's a
little too thick, the blotching is gone, but the grain and pores aren't
accentuated very well and the stain doesn't add much color (which may be the
look you want!). To get the desired look, and be able to repeat it
consistently, we have to intentionally control the exact solids content of
the washcoat.
Calculating & Adjusting the Solids Content
To make a washcoat, start by finding out the solids content, by volume, of
the finish you're using for the washcoat. The manufacturer of the finish can
provide this information. Don't use the "solids content by weight" number
that the manufacturer supplies, you need the "solids by volume" number.
To be effective, the solids content of a washcoat will generally range
between 3% and 10%. To get good grain and figure definition while using a
washcoat with a thick oil-base stain, the solids should be around 5%. To
change our 20% solids finish to a 5% solids finish, we need to add the right
amount of the proper thinner. For shellac, the thinner is alcohol; for vinyl
sealer the thinner is lacquer thinner; and water is used with glu-size.
Applying the Washcoat
Pad, brush, or spray a regular wet coat of the thinned finish on the bare
wood (after sanding), let it dry, then sand very lightly with a very fine
grit (e.g., 220, 320, or 400)to smooth the surface. Excessive sanding will
remove too much of the washcoat and allow the dye or stain to soak in and
cause blotching. Your application technique will affect how much material
you deposit on the surface; for example, spraying will lay down more than
padding. Adjust the solids content to work with your application technique.
Preventing Blotching on End Grain (including raised panel doors)
End grain on table tops, dressers, cabinets, raised panel doors, etc. can
absorb a lot more stain than the rest of the wood. That's because the end
grain exposes the channels that the water that fed the wood used to flow
through. To keep the end grain from getting EXTRA dark, just use a washcoat
on it.
Start by sanding the end grain up to 220 grit. This will make it smoother
and help limit how much it absorbs.
You can apply the washcoat just to the end grain if that's the only area
that you need to control stain penetration. Don't worry if the washcoat gets
on the flat surface of the wood when you apply it to the end grain... just
let it dry and then sand the flat surfaces using a sander or sanding block
to remove the sealer. Sand the washcoat very lightly with very fine grit
paper or a sanding sponge, just enough to smooth it, and then stain the
entire surface all at once.
As always, do a LARGE sample of your finish from start to end before
starting on your actual piece(s). Small samples can look deceivingly good,
but on a larger surface it's a disaster! Use the bottom of a table top,
shelves, or the back of doors if you don't have sufficient scrap to work
with. In the sample above showing the 2 washcoats, I used the back of a door
and then sanded it off before I applied the final finish. Make sure
everything works the way you expected and looks the way you want it to. If
you're getting blotching, increase the solids content a couple percentage
points at a time until it goes away.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How to Pop the Curl in Cherry
A fail-safe finishing method, when you want some blotchiness to accentuate
the grain
Begin by sanding only to P150.
Seal endgrain areas with a thin washcoat of shellac.
Then flood the wood with oil.
Let it cure for a week, then brush or spray on several coats of lacquer.
Once the lacquer is fully cured, rub out the finish using very fine
wet-or-dry sandpaper followed by polishing compounds.
Don't look for those products at a hardware store or home center, though.
You're much more likely to find them at an auto-supply store.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm staining cherry to use as door and window casings, and blotchiness is
> an
> on and off problem. I understand that cherry is inherently problematic
> with
> uneven staining. I'm using a liberal coat of Minwax wood conditioner, and
> about a half hour following up with the first coat of a light shade of
> stain. The first 2 boards turned out fine, the third is unusable
> (Extremely
> blotchy). I tried again, with only one board turning out well. Is there a
> better way to condition cherry prior to staining. I read an article in the
> current American Woodworker about cherry, and they pretty much advocate
> using a couple coats of a gel topcoat from General finishes, followed by a
> coat or two of gel stain. Before I start going through a lot of cherry
> trying to fine tune the finishing process (and yes, I tried it on a piece
> of
> scrap first, which looked fine), any ideas out there on sealing the
> cherry?
> Maybe a wash coat of shellac cut with alcohol? Ideas??? Many thanks to
> anyone able to help, Mark
>
>
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:8fbb8174-fd7d-4de3-99be-63e611437ae3@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 25, 12:18 pm, "mark" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'm staining cherry
>
> Alert! To the pitchforks and torches!
>
> -Kevin
I just wanted to ever so slightly enhance the color of the cherry. But it
looks like a clear finish is the way to go. Please don't hurt me......
Snip
> How to Pop the Curl in Cherry
>
> A fail-safe finishing method, when you want some blotchiness to accentuate
> the grain
>
> Begin by sanding only to P150.
>
> Seal endgrain areas with a thin washcoat of shellac.
>
> Then flood the wood with oil.
Snip
IME, experience this exactly what the OP does *not* want to do. Curl has
grain going in an out of the surface. The wood fibers which are not parallel
to the wood surface will soak up more oil and look darker. This can be a
great look when you want to accentuate the curl. Not so good (blotchy), when
you have subtle, irregular density changes and meandering grain reversal.
YMMV, but at the end of the day there is only one finishing absolute:
Test on scrap (or the back side of your trim)...
Cheers,
Steve