I'm brand new here. This forum was recommended by a friend. I'm an avid DI=
Y-er but finishes are not my specialty.
The problem:
I built a steam radiator cover (out of red oak) for my 8mth old son's room =
(turned out great). The minwax oil based fast drying semigloss polyurethan=
e has not dried properly and is giving off a smell as the radiator heats up=
. I'm concerned about safety (fumes) so I have removed the cover until I c=
an fix the problem.
The finishing process:
We live in a small 2 bed APT in NYC, so I have less than ideal circumstance=
s for woodworking.=20
For the first coat I applied the polyurethane directly to the (sanded/wiped=
clean) surface of the wood. *it it possible that the can was not stirred =
well enough. * the first coat was possibly thick but had no runs. I sat out=
side my apt in the sun waiting for the finish to off-gas. After an hour I =
brought it inside to cure. =20
After 4 hours the finish seemed cured (the can recommends 3-4hrs). I sande=
d with 220 and wiped clean with a slightly damp cloth.
For the second coat (around 9pm) I had to change location, so I applied the=
finish standing inside our apt with the project sitting outside on the fir=
e escape (on a cardboard box to catch drips). It was cold - about 50 degree=
s. I left it out there to off-gas for an hour, then brought it inside to cu=
te overnight. *Again the can was possibly not stirred well enough.
The next day everything seemed fine other than a slight oily film (like the=
project had the tiniest film of cooking oil over it). I figured it would h=
arden with heat and time, so I attached the aluminum mesh and installed it.=
.. And now we have the problem.
Thoughts, guys? I'd love to avoid sanding this whole thing back to bare wo=
od (as it will be by hand on my kitchen floor).
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:50:58 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
> Finish formulas have changed (15-20 yrs ago?), to accommodate new VOC reg=
s and concerns, yet many of the can's instructions remained the same. Unl=
ess you have perfect weather and other conditions, etc., drying and curing =
times may very well vary, from the ideal, and remedies, for mistakes, can b=
e aggravating, not only for a novice, but for the experienced, as well.
>=20
Formulas for most states (of course with the huge exception of CA) didn't c=
hange much 20 or so years ago. The labels did. The instructions became 50=
% warnings about how dangerous the product was.
About 15 years or so ago product ingredients changed >>all for the best<< a=
nd so did application methods and protocols. Better resins, better synthet=
ic oils, better product/quality control, and better application research st=
arted to come to the front of the line. When I took a class at the Sherwin=
Williams commercial coatings division traveling seminars, it was fascinati=
ng. They loaded me up with all kinds of practical and technical informatio=
n, product manuals, etc. And better still, I got to talk to some of the gu=
ys that had actually applied the products.
I realized then how awful finishing is for the home guy. They don't like i=
t (the battle cry of "I am a woodworker, not a painter") still rings in my =
ears from time to time. So the average woodworker learns exactly enough to=
get by. And, when they find something they like, THEY NEVER CHANGE. =20
I am being bit silly here, but it is almost like "Robert, I would paint the=
house myself, but with my wipe on products it might take me a while, and p=
robably 10,000 cans of finish."
I spotted this trend at least 15 years back, and realized that "finishing" =
also known as "paintin", "stainin" and "varnishin" is widely viewed as a v=
oodoo art. I rarely meet folks that read the cans, follow the protocols an=
d procedures, and interface with the manufacturer. So finishing becomes al=
most folkloric, with bits and pieces of "knowledge" passed around on a slow=
day over coffee, or in an emergency situation like this one. Anything is =
better than doing the right prep, following the instructions on the can (wh=
at... read the instructions?), and the worst bugaboo of all... practicing y=
our technique.
It is much more fun to sit and chat knowingly about a simple finish that is=
a favorite, and offer suggestions to others that in the end amount to pass=
ing verbal gas. Pure conjecture. I have heard more downright bullshit abou=
t finishing than just about any other craft. It is a craft unto itself, so =
how the guy that had literally applied finish to a hand full of pieces that=
only uses one or two finishes feels capable of dispensing advice, I don't =
know.
Folks that finish one piece a year (but have been doing one piece a year fo=
r 20 years)feel free to opine their expert opinion, because afterall, they =
have been doing it for 20 years! BTW, this isn't a slap at non professiona=
ls, many "professionals" are just as frickin' bad about not following instr=
uctions or learning their finishing products.
Anyone can pull off good finishing, just follow the instructions on the can=
. That's what stumps me. Today's finishes are so good, so forgiving, and =
so easy to apply (follow the instructions) I don't really understand fouled=
finishes on projects made with new materials.
You are a professional finisher when you know your products well enough to =
know what VOC of solvent to thin with depending on the day's weather, you k=
now which tip you want in your gun because there is a difference in "hangin=
g" a coating and "laying" it out. You are fluent with paints, coatings, cl=
ear coats, and their application and methods of application. Better still,=
you understand prep.
For everyone else, just follow the instructions on the can. No guessing on=
application techniques from others, no folkloric advice from around the ca=
mp fire, no Google experts needed, and no "I know a guy that does this XXXX=
X this way... I haven't tried it, but he swears by it" thus divesting himse=
lf from any responsibility for his answer.
Robert
Another update:
I disassembled the reflectix lining. As suspected, the finish underneath was still smelly and had some of that oily residue (very minor). This had obviously not cured as well as the exposed finish.
So...
Mesh is still attached. New plan is to leave the lining out for a few days/week to see if the smell goes away. I'll put the cover next to another radiator so it has the heat to help the process.
How's my rationale here, guys. Hoping to avoid possible conflicts with neighbors over a smelly basement.
Oh, to have a working space!!
Tim
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 10:11:04 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 10/27/2014 3:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> > "Greg Guarino"=20
> >
> >> I find myself especially curious about this so I'd like to recap.
> >>
what accounts for this strange result?
re are (some of the) possibilities:
> >>
> >> 1. The state of the can of finish.
> > How old is old? =20
3) How much was the can stirred, in the first place?
This seems to be a good case study, at any rate.
No matter! For now and for the OP's sake, I doubt the project is ruined an=
d we may never know, exactly, the problem. Clean off the oil film, scuff t=
he finish (as DadiOH says) and let it sit/cure, some more. I think, as lon=
g as the second coat doesn't start peeling off, it should be fine.
As long as there's no more fumes, oders, etc., the baby should be safe. Co=
ver the radiator and wait until next spring/summer to recoat or redo the fi=
nish, if need be.
Maybe keep us posted, as to subsequent drying/curing results or further pro=
blems, so we can explore the problem solving, some more.
Finish formulas have changed (15-20 yrs ago?), to accommodate new VOC regs =
and concerns, yet many of the can's instructions remained the same. Unles=
s you have perfect weather and other conditions, etc., drying and curing ti=
mes may very well vary, from the ideal, and remedies, for mistakes, can be =
aggravating, not only for a novice, but for the experienced, as well.
Sonny
"Experienced" woodworkers use this time-tested remedy: Postpone the projec=
t until next year. That's why we have so many ongoing projects in our shop=
s. :)
Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> That though does not
>> apply to the OP's question about an oily feel. I can't figure out
>> how he's
>> getting that - it's just not what one would expect from poly. If I
>> were
>> him, I'd scuff it down and re-apply with proper stirring.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
> That would be step two. Step one is to put a coat on a scrap of
> wood Let it dry, sand, recoat as you did on the original. If it is
> properly dried, I'd think operator error on the first try. If it is
> oily, I'd think possibly something wrong with the poly. Very odd
> that would happen though.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
One of the reasons I left Ohio was to get away from weather
problems like this.
The only way to do it was down in the heated basement, apply
a coat and allow a week to cure between coats and learning
to live with the stink.
Based on what I read so far, it's time to go to Goodwill and buy
a bag of rags, then to HD for a gallon of denatured alcohol.
Wipe as much of the defective material as possible, then sand
out starting with 150 grit using the +/- 45 degree bias method.
When finished sanding, WAIT a WEEK before applying new
material that has been prepared like Bond's martini.
(Don't bruise it.)<grin>
Wipe the surface down one final time before applying new finish.
And now the tough part, keep the piece INSIDE and learn
to live with the stink while it dries.
After the 2nd or 3rd day, the stink won't be so bad.
DAMHIKT.
Lew
Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>
>>>> That though does not
>>>> apply to the OP's question about an oily feel. I can't figure
>>>> out
>>>> how he's
>>>> getting that - it's just not what one would expect from poly. If
>>>> I
>>>> were
>>>> him, I'd scuff it down and re-apply with proper stirring.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
>>
>>> That would be step two. Step one is to put a coat on a scrap of
>>> wood Let it dry, sand, recoat as you did on the original. If it
>>> is
>>> properly dried, I'd think operator error on the first try. If it
>>> is
>>> oily, I'd think possibly something wrong with the poly. Very odd
>>> that would happen though.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> One of the reasons I left Ohio was to get away from weather
>> problems like this.
>>
>> The only way to do it was down in the heated basement, apply
>> a coat and allow a week to cure between coats and learning
>> to live with the stink.
>>
>> Based on what I read so far, it's time to go to Goodwill and buy
>> a bag of rags, then to HD for a gallon of denatured alcohol.
>>
>> Wipe as much of the defective material as possible, then sand
>> out starting with 150 grit using the +/- 45 degree bias method.
>>
>> When finished sanding, WAIT a WEEK before applying new
>> material that has been prepared like Bond's martini.
>>
>> (Don't bruise it.)<grin>
>>
>> Wipe the surface down one final time before applying new finish.
>>
>> And now the tough part, keep the piece INSIDE and learn
>> to live with the stink while it dries.
>>
>> After the 2nd or 3rd day, the stink won't be so bad.
>>
>> DAMHIKT.
>>
>> Lew
--------------------------------------------------
"woodchucker" wrote:
> Denatured alcohol won't put a dent in poly..
> I'm not sure about acetone..
---------------------------------------------------
If it won't attack "weakened" poly, then it's acetone or xylene time.
Lew
"John McCoy" wrote:
>> "woodchucker" wrote:
>>
>>> Denatured alcohol won't put a dent in poly..
>>> I'm not sure about acetone..
---------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> If it won't attack "weakened" poly, then it's acetone or xylene
>> time.
--------------------------------------------
"John McCoy" wrote:
> Considering he's worried about an infant in the house, acetone
> or xylene is probably the last thing he wants to experiment
> with.
---------------------------------------------
That should probably apply to the total project if the infant can't be
isolated when working on the project.
Basic problem of working inside during winter months.
Lew
Lew
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> I spotted this trend at least 15 years back, and realized that
>> "finishing" also known as "paintin", "stainin" and "varnishin" is
>> widely
>> viewed as a voodoo art.
--------------------------------------------------------
"dadiOH" wrote:
>
> I agree with all you wrote but snipped most in the interest of
> brevity.
>
> It seems to me that the manufacturers themselves are at least
> partially responsible ofr the "voodoo art" concept. Take spar
> varnish for one example...thanks mostly to the manufacturers, the
> average Joe thinks spar varnish is a superior, harder varnish. Not
> true. Heck, I don't even know if what is labled as such IS spar
> varnish. I do know that it isn't easy to find a plain old alkyd
> one.
---------------------------------------------------------
Amen.
Lew
>
> Teak oil is another. Oil FROM teak? Nope. Oil FOR teak?
> Sure...and for any other wood.
>
> Minwax's Polycrylic is another. Is it multiple acrylics?
> Polyurethane + acrylic? I won't even get into the puffery by many
> such as "rock hard".
>
> I would like to know what things are without having to delve into
> the MSDS/Tech sheets.
>
> --
>
> dadiOH
> ____________________________
>
> Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
> Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
> Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 10/27/2014 3:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>> I find myself especially curious about this so I'd like to recap.
>>
>> Its seems we have several factors here, and two questions. The first
>> question: what accounts for this strange result?
>>
>> Here are (some of the) possibilities:
>>
>> 1. The state of the can of finish.
>>
>> Do these have date codes? I have seen some pretty un-saleable things
>> returned to the shelves of Home Depot. What happens to old poly?
>
> How old is old? I've used stuff that was at least five years old, maybe
> ten, without problems.
> _______________
I have stains that are still good after 20 years, once I open a gel
varnish it could be good for 6 weeks to 6 months before beginning to
harden and or not perform correctly. When working on something that is
worth more because of your time and materials involved, if there is the
slightest doubt spend $20 on a new can of varnish.
>
>> 2. Insufficient stirring.
>>
>> The instructions say to mix thoroughly before - and even during -
>> application. But what happens if we don't? Is it simply that we will
>> have a more dilute mixture near the top of the can? If so it's hard to
>> imagine that causing the reported symptom. After all, some of us have
>> thinned poly on purpose without that result. Or maybe something else
>> separates out as well?
>
> If I don't use a can of oil paint for some time the linseed oil
> separates out and floats on the top. Stirring gets it mixed back in.
>
> If the varnish is non-glossy, one also has to mix in the flatting
> agent...the gelatinous goo in the bottom. Takes lots of mixing. Time
> was that the flatting material was talc; now I suspect it is fumed silica.
And even on gloss varnishes the varnish should be stirred. The delivery
part that evaporates can separate from the protective film left on the
piece.
> _________________
>
>> If I remember correctly, poly "dries" by two processes. First the
>> solvent evaporates, then the "polymerization" reaction occurs over time.
>> If memory serves, the second reaction at least (the "curing") is
>> retarded by lower temperatures. But the piece was eventually brought
>> into a heated space. Would it then cure properly, even if the process
>> had been slowed by the lower temperature?
>
> Can't say for sure but I don't see why not. Regardless, the finish
> should NOT have an oily film at any time under any conditions.
I find that too hot, too cold, and too humid can slow down the curing
process.
Personlly, going with daddiOH and Mike Marlow on this one.
Important note to all finishers:
READ, UNDERSTAND, AND FOLLOW ALL INSTRUCTIONS ON THE CAN. While many think=
they know the manufacturer's product better than the manufacturer, this si=
mply isn't true. =20
Poly will indeed desegregate with the heavier resins going to the bottom of=
the can and the ligher oils coming to the top. While it may not be appare=
nt to the naked eye, especially when looking down into a can, it happens. =
Storage in hot weather can really make a difference in how fast this happen=
s, too. (Hint: hotter weather makes the oil rise..)
No doubt, you have the long oils on top of your project. They may not dry =
for a long time, and if they do, your finish is already fouled. I can tell=
you as a professional that does this, you cannot "salvage" a finish. You =
either do it right or wrong, there is nothing in between. Don't spend the =
next couple of weeks trying to put a band aid on this project. If your pol=
y isn't dry to the touch in a day, unless there are unusual weather conditi=
ons, something went wrong. Strip the old stuff off, buy new poly, STIR IT =
UP, and apply it. Put this behind you and go to the next project.
Robert
On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 08:35:19 -0700 (PDT), [email protected]
wrote:
>I'm brand new here. This forum was recommended by a friend. I'm an avid DIY-er but finishes are not my specialty.
>
>The problem:
>I built a steam radiator cover (out of red oak) for my 8mth old son's room (turned out great). The minwax oil based fast drying semigloss polyurethane has not dried properly and is giving off a smell as the radiator heats up. I'm concerned about safety (fumes) so I have removed the cover until I can fix the problem.
>
>The finishing process:
>We live in a small 2 bed APT in NYC, so I have less than ideal circumstances for woodworking.
>
>For the first coat I applied the polyurethane directly to the (sanded/wiped clean) surface of the wood. *it it possible that the can was not stirred well enough. * the first coat was possibly thick but had no runs. I sat outside my apt in the sun waiting for the finish to off-gas. After an hour I brought it inside to cure.
>
>After 4 hours the finish seemed cured (the can recommends 3-4hrs). I sanded with 220 and wiped clean with a slightly damp cloth.
>
>For the second coat (around 9pm) I had to change location, so I applied the finish standing inside our apt with the project sitting outside on the fire escape (on a cardboard box to catch drips). It was cold - about 50 degrees. I left it out there to off-gas for an hour, then brought it inside to cute overnight. *Again the can was possibly not stirred well enough.
>
>The next day everything seemed fine other than a slight oily film (like the project had the tiniest film of cooking oil over it). I figured it would harden with heat and time, so I attached the aluminum mesh and installed it... And now we have the problem.
>
>Thoughts, guys? I'd love to avoid sanding this whole thing back to bare wood (as it will be by hand on my kitchen floor).
Your concern about not stirring the polyurethane well enough is
unwarranted. The thicker contents at the bottom of the can that needs
stirring will only effect the sheen. That contents is not present in
the clear gloss polyurethane and that is why that polyurethane is
glossy.
Don't be too concerned about the smell unless it really bothers you or
your son. It will stop soon. When polyurethane is curing it gives off
those fumes. The off-gassing is exacerbated when it is heated such as
being near a radiator.
On Saturday, November 1, 2014 2:32:03 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> I hope you don't feel that way because of my post.
Yes, Robert, but I was aware of where you're coming from. No problem with your guiding us, this way. I always welcome your input. Thanks.
Maybe I should have been more direct.... and taking a cue from DadiOH:
To the OP....
1) wipe the oil off
2) Scuff it
3) Allow it to dry or cure, as best as possible
4) Install the cover, as long as there's no odor to effect the child
*) And since your weather may have contributed to the issue and you have no decent place to work, other than the kitchen table
5)Wait until spring or summer to do any fix that may need to be done.
6) In the meantime, keep us updated, so "we" can further troubleshoot some possible fixes.... *That's what us non-pros do, postpone the project, until a more convenient time, like next year.
One way or the other, there are folks, here, that can and will help solve your problem. That's one reason why I visit, here, often.
Sonny
On 10/25/2014 6:24 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> That though does not
> apply to the OP's question about an oily feel. I can't figure out how he's
> getting that - it's just not what one would expect from poly. If I were
> him, I'd scuff it down and re-apply with proper stirring.
>
That would be step two. Step one is to put a coat on a scrap of wood
Let it dry, sand, recoat as you did on the original. If it is properly
dried, I'd think operator error on the first try. If it is oily, I'd
think possibly something wrong with the poly. Very odd that would
happen though.
On 10/25/2014 3:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Thanks, John. I'll definitely look into shellac.
>
> Update: the finish seems fine until I run fingers over it. There is a slight oily residue that comes off on my fingers. This hasn't gone away after a week. Is this normal for poly??
>
do not apply shellac, it's not very good with heat.
It's a great finish, but it does not like heat.
I would have waited 24 hours before recoating.
Then I would wait a week before putting it to use.
Just wait and see what happens.
I'm not a big poly user, but I don't think you need to stir it.
--
Jeff
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I'm brand new here. This forum was recommended by a friend. I'm an
> avid DIY-er but finishes are not my specialty.
>
> The problem:
> I built a steam radiator cover (out of red oak) for my 8mth old son's
> room (turned out great). The minwax oil based fast drying semigloss
> polyurethane has not dried properly and is giving off a smell as the
> radiator heats up. I'm concerned about safety (fumes) so I have
> removed the cover until I can fix the problem.
In my experience poly smells for a while. It seems that
whatever formula Minwax is using now is worse than it was
10 or so years ago, too.
In any event, my first thought would be to just leave it
awhile - the smell will probably go away in a week or so.
My second thought is, you could try sealing it with shellac.
FWIW, shellac is a non-toxic finish (they coat M&Ms with it),
so if you're making other kid-stuff that needs a finish you
might consider it. Altho toys and things like that are
generally best left bare wood.
John
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:544d9e62$0$46573
[email protected]:
> "woodchucker" wrote:
>
>> Denatured alcohol won't put a dent in poly..
>> I'm not sure about acetone..
> ---------------------------------------------------
> If it won't attack "weakened" poly, then it's acetone or xylene time.
Considering he's worried about an infant in the house, acetone
or xylene is probably the last thing he wants to experiment
with.
John
Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> 4.The timing.
>
> The online instructions say to wait 4-6 hours between coats. So again,
> what happens if we don't wait long enough, "long enough" perhaps being
> lengthened by the ambient temperature during the first hour outside?
> Does the second coat prevent enough oxygen from getting to the first
> coat, perhaps?
Like you, finishing isn't really my strong suit. But my
understanding is that, if you recoat too soon, you're basically
just creating one very thick coat. Since the solvent has to
evaporate, and that happens very slowly once a skin forms on
the finish, very thick coats are not recommended...
(I note that professional finishers often spray on coats on a
much shorter schedule than 4-6 hours. But they're spraying, so
a much thinner coat to start with).
> Perhaps, given the apartment setting and his infant son, a water-borne
> poly would have been a good choice. I thought I read somewhere that
> despite being *carried* by water, the poly is still poly.
Water-borne poly is just that, regular poly carried by water.
To be specific, it's regular poly in an emulsion in water.
Once the water evaporates, you're left with the normal poly
solvents (just much less of them).
The only non-hazardous finish that comes to mind is shellac.
But as someone pointed out (and I'd forgotten), that's not
such a good choice with the heat from the radiator.
John
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> It seems to me that the manufacturers themselves are at least
> partially responsible ofr the "voodoo art" concept. Take spar varnish
> for one example...thanks mostly to the manufacturers, the average Joe
> thinks spar varnish is a superior, harder varnish. Not true. Heck, I
> don't even know if what is labled as such IS spar varnish. I do know
> that it isn't easy to find a plain old alkyd one.
I'll agree with you on that specific one. Mass-market
manufacturers putting random crap in the big-box stores
and calling it "spar varnish" does no-one any good. Use
a real spar varnish, like Petit or Epifanes and you
quickly see the difference.
BTW, for those not familiar with it, spar varnish is _not_
harder than other varnish, it's softer. That's because
it's intended to go on spars, and not crack when the spar
flexes with the wind.
John
On Thursday, October 30, 2014 2:13:24 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:50:58 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
>=20
> > Finish formulas have changed (15-20 yrs ago?), ......
> >=20
>=20
> Formulas for most states (of course with the huge exception of CA) didn't=
change much 20 or so years ago. The labels did. The instructions became =
50% warnings about how dangerous the product was.
>=20
> About 15 years or so ago product ingredients changed >>all for the best<<=
and so did application methods and protocols. Better resins, better synth=
etic oils, better product/quality control, and better application research =
started to come to the front of the line. .....
I kinna feel like I got castigated, here, and, to some extent, rightly so. =
I don't mind, at all, being guided in the right direction.
Gradully, over those years, many things changed, with respect to finishing =
products. For us non-experts, these changes can be confusing. For someo=
ne as I, and likely the OP (my reasoning), finding one or two finishes and =
techniques and, somewhat, mastering those, is also reasonable. But this wa=
sn't the crux of my post. I suppose I shouldn't have commented about any o=
f this. It has nothing to do with fixing his problem.
The OP's project is not fine furniture, requiring absolute expert finishing=
. He seemed to be concerned that he might have to strip and refinish the r=
adiator cover, maybe even if the project was ruined, and the concern for th=
e baby. =20
With the info we have, it's unlikely the project is ruined, it's unlikely i=
t may need to be stripped and refinished, if he allows time for more curing=
, and if more curing solves the odors/fumes issue, then the concerns for th=
e baby should be resolved. I was also treating the "patient", to be patien=
t with his project, not just treating the project. =20
Despite the probable mistakes involved, a fix, to his finish, is likely ava=
ilable with a little patience, allowing the finish to dry or cure a little =
longer. We can't fix his problem, from our distance, but we can guide him,=
to the best of our experience, for him to have the best confidence in his =
work, to have the best immediate finishing results, possible (I assume he w=
ants the cover installed ASAP), and for him to have confidence that everyth=
ing will be safe for the baby.
I suppose the spirit of our words don't always get posted, as we are thinki=
ng of them, as we write.
Sonny
On Saturday, October 25, 2014 12:12:16 PM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:
> In my experience poly smells for a while. It seems that
> whatever formula Minwax is using now is worse than it was
> 10 or so years ago, too.
The formula was changed to accommodate the newer VOC concerns.
> In any event, my first thought would be to just leave it
> awhile - the smell will probably go away in a week or so.
I agree with John. Just let it sit a good while.
*First coat applied on raw wood: Some has soaked in, a bit, so it would take longer to dry, than what the can says. Would have been good to let it dry overnight. Despite the short time before recoating, it should cure, properly, after a good week.
So, until then, the penalty assessed is: Your son sleeps with Mom and you sleep on the couch!
Sonny
On Friday, October 31, 2014 8:48:07 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
=20
> I kinna feel like I got castigated, here, and, to some extent, rightly so=
. I > don't mind, at all, being guided in the right direction.
I hope you don't feel that way because of my post. I take for granted we a=
re all guys here, and when I am in "contractor" mode, I tend to write and s=
peak as I do when on the job. Besides, remember what I post is my opinion,=
based on my experience(s). It certainly isn't anything written in stone.
Sometimes too, I tend to skip the niceties. I am around contractors, sub co=
ntractors, vendors and such all day long and our language and while polite,=
our interface with one another can be extremely crisp and brief.
=20
> Gradully, over those years, many things changed, with respect to finishin=
g products. For us non-experts, these changes can be confusing. For som=
eone as I, and likely the OP (my reasoning), finding one or two finishes an=
d techniques and, somewhat, mastering those, is also reasonable. But this =
wasn't the crux of my post. I suppose I shouldn't have commented about any=
of this. It has nothing to do with fixing his problem.
I disagree. These threads rarely stay exactly on topic and often times tha=
t leads to another adjoining issue that is pertinent to the discussion. I =
say "fire away" and let the chips fall where they will. No one owns this j=
oint and everyone is entitled to post as they please.
=20
> The OP's project is not fine furniture, requiring absolute expert finishi=
ng. He seemed to be concerned that he might have to strip and refinish the=
radiator cover, maybe even if the project was ruined, and the concern for =
the baby. =20
>=20
> With the info we have, it's unlikely the project is ruined, it's unlikely=
it may need to be stripped and refinished, if he allows time for more curi=
ng, and if more curing solves the odors/fumes issue, then the concerns for =
the baby should be resolved. I was also treating the "patient", to be pati=
ent with his project, not just treating the project. =20
>=20
In all likelihood, the project is fine, but the finish is not. If you have=
a finish that should dry to the touch in a few hours, and it is still oily=
after a few days, that should be a signal that things are screwed up. If =
you poured concrete and it didn't get hard in a day, you would know somethi=
ng was wrong. If you painted a wall and it was "wet" for a few days, you w=
ould understand that things weren't right. If you laid brick and the morta=
r didn't set up, you would assume something went wrong.
Here's what I don't get. The finish OP describes stays oily for a few days=
and no one thinks that much of it, and is actually advised all could be we=
ll with patience. So to boil it down, there is an application of an incorr=
ectly mixed solution to a surface that, since it was not mixed well (specif=
ically using the product NOT as designed), refuses to create the chemical r=
eaction it is designed to do. So the application is fouled, as is the fina=
l product.
Even if the coating finally "dries", no doubt it will not perform as intend=
ed.
What grinds my gears is the folks that advise "repairs" and "things to try"=
based on rumor and hearsay. No professional finisher or even an experienc=
ed home finisher would advise some of the nonsense that shows up. For exam=
ple, you clearly have a non miscible, oil finish that is being used. Why w=
ould you put shellac ON TOP of a non bondable substrate to begin with, and =
worse, why would you put a finish on top of wet finish that uses a complete=
ly different solvent/carrier? Maybe some of those things might be OK as a =
completely last ditch effort, but even then, when you have screwed up it is=
time to move forward.
I AM NOT singling you out or pointing a finger at you. But for the casual =
poster that taps out reply, sometimes they don't think of the consequences =
of what they post. Someone might actually TRY the methods they post or the=
materials they suggest, even if the respondent doesn't have any real knowl=
edge to know if it will work. I have seen many suggestions over the years =
posted here as advice on repairs that I KNOW have made the problem worse, c=
aused more work, and wasted more time than should have ever happened.
> I suppose the spirit of our words don't always get posted, as we are thin=
king of them, as we write.
>=20
True enough. It is difficult to get the intent of the spoken word to the p=
age, and it all sounds different to each of us. As we do more and more int=
erfacing by way of keyboard, I always try to think twice before I post to s=
ee if my post was too offensive, or if I could tone down my response if I w=
as in torch mode.=20
All the best to you, Sonny. I enjoy your posts.
Robert
On 10/25/2014 2:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Thanks, John. I'll definitely look into shellac.
>
> Update: the finish seems fine until I run fingers over it. There is a slight oily residue that comes off on my fingers. This hasn't gone away after a week. Is this normal for poly??
>
Not normal. Is that "new" can of finish?
Hey guys!
OP back with an update. =20
Like any dad, woodworking time is limited. So, partly because of lack of t=
ime and partly out of hope that the finish would continue to cure, I have m=
ade no change to the 2x coats already applied.
The results:
The oily residue has gone. Once I noticed this (1.5 weeks after applicatio=
n), I decided to put the cover back into action. The finish looks great, a=
nd I would have no reason for concern other than, the finish still gives of=
f a smell when the radiator gets hot.
I have been careful to air out the room and limit time spent when the odor =
is strong. BUT I am concerned about 2x things 1) is this odor dangerous 2)=
dangerous or not it is not pleasant
I have time today. Thinking that the best answer is to
1) remove the aluminum mesh. Remove reflectix reflective lining covering th=
e inside of the top. Top is 4"x32".=20
2) scuff the finish back with 220
3) wipe with paint thinner to remove dust and any oily residue that may sti=
ll exist (ie possibly under the lining inside)
4) STIR THE CAN. This is 100% the problem. I'm convinced that the can is fi=
ne. The problem was that I did not stir well enough. (I will never make tha=
t mistake again.)
5) re coat with final coat indoors (heated/shared basement area)
Any thoughts or tips? The de-construction of mesh (many staples) and linin=
g is not an insignificant task, but I suspect will be worth the effort.
On 11/1/2014 4:47 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> I have been careful to air out the room and limit time spent when the odor is strong. BUT I am concerned about 2x things
>
> 1) is this odor dangerous 2) dangerous or not it is not pleasant
>
the odor is off gassing and will get better with time. What I can't say
is how much time, but a second coat, properly applied, may seal in
whatever the problem is. Heating is forcing a cure and while
unpleasant, it may shorten the time.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> After 4 hours the finish seemed cured (the can recommends 3-4hrs). I
> sanded with 220 and wiped clean with a slightly damp cloth.
It may be dry to the touch but it won't be cured for at least two weeks,
month is closer.
I hope you dried it after wiping with before the damp cloth before
applying coat #2.
____________
> For the second coat (around 9pm) I had to change location, so I applied
> the finish standing inside our apt with the project sitting outside on
> the fire escape (on a cardboard box to catch drips). It was cold - about
> 50 degrees. I left it out there to off-gas for an hour, then brought it
> inside to cute overnight. *Again the can was possibly not stirred well
> enough.
>
> The next day everything seemed fine other than a slight oily film (like
> the project had the tiniest film of cooking oil over it). I figured it
> would harden with heat and time, so I attached the aluminum mesh and
> installed it... And now we have the problem.
If it had an oily film, regardless of how slight, you didn't stir it
enough. The 50 degree weather didn't help either.
__________________
> Thoughts, guys? I'd love to avoid sanding this whole thing back to bare
> wood (as it will be by hand on my kitchen floor).
Try wiping it down well with paint thinner. If the oily film goes away,
scuff sand and apply another coat after stirring well. "Well" = twice
what you think it needs.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
[email protected] wrote:
> Thanks, John. I'll definitely look into shellac.
>
> Update: the finish seems fine until I run fingers over it. There is
> a slight oily residue that comes off on my fingers. This hasn't gone
> away after a week. Is this normal for poly??
Not in my experience - at all. After 24 hours it should be completely dry
to the touch - no residue, no oily residue. After 24 hours I scuff it down
with a 3M pad and re-coat. Works every time. You absolutely should not get
an oily feel from poly.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
woodchucker wrote:
>
> I'm not a big poly user, but I don't think you need to stir it.
Yes Jeff - you do need to stir it. With any poly - not just with satin
finishes, stir slowly and don't shake. You don't want to introduce air
bubbles into poly which will happen when shaking it. That though does not
apply to the OP's question about an oily feel. I can't figure out how he's
getting that - it's just not what one would expect from poly. If I were
him, I'd scuff it down and re-apply with proper stirring.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I'm brand new here. This forum was recommended by a friend. I'm an avid
DIY-er but finishes are not my specialty.
The problem:
I built a steam radiator cover (out of red oak) for my 8mth old son's room
(turned out great). The minwax oil based fast drying semigloss polyurethane
has not dried properly and is giving off a smell as the radiator heats up.
I'm concerned about safety (fumes) so I have removed the cover until I can
fix the problem.
The finishing process:
We live in a small 2 bed APT in NYC, so I have less than ideal circumstances
for woodworking.
For the first coat I applied the polyurethane directly to the (sanded/wiped
clean) surface of the wood. *it it possible that the can was not stirred
well enough. * the first coat was possibly thick but had no runs. I sat
outside my apt in the sun waiting for the finish to off-gas. After an hour
I brought it inside to cure.
After 4 hours the finish seemed cured (the can recommends 3-4hrs). I sanded
with 220 and wiped clean with a slightly damp cloth.
For the second coat (around 9pm) I had to change location, so I applied the
finish standing inside our apt with the project sitting outside on the fire
escape (on a cardboard box to catch drips). It was cold - about 50 degrees.
I left it out there to off-gas for an hour, then brought it inside to cute
overnight. *Again the can was possibly not stirred well enough.
The next day everything seemed fine other than a slight oily film (like the
project had the tiniest film of cooking oil over it). I figured it would
harden with heat and time, so I attached the aluminum mesh and installed
it... And now we have the problem.
Thoughts, guys? I'd love to avoid sanding this whole thing back to bare
wood (as it will be by hand on my kitchen floor).
*********************************************************************************
Give it time. It is not unusual for it to out-gas for 4 days or more.
Being around some heat will speed the process and make it harder.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim in NC
---
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On 10/26/2014 12:51 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 10/25/2014 2:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> Thanks, John. I'll definitely look into shellac.
>>
>> Update: the finish seems fine until I run fingers over it. There is a
>> slight oily residue that comes off on my fingers. This hasn't gone
>> away after a week. Is this normal for poly??
>>
>
>
> Not normal. Is that "new" can of finish?
I find myself especially curious about this so I'd like to recap.
Its seems we have several factors here, and two questions. The first
question: what accounts for this strange result?
Here are (some of the) possibilities:
1. The state of the can of finish.
Do these have date codes? I have seen some pretty un-saleable things
returned to the shelves of Home Depot. What happens to old poly?
2. Insufficient stirring.
The instructions say to mix thoroughly before - and even during -
application. But what happens if we don't? Is it simply that we will
have a more dilute mixture near the top of the can? If so it's hard to
imagine that causing the reported symptom. After all, some of us have
thinned poly on purpose without that result. Or maybe something else
separates out as well?
3. The temperature.
If I remember correctly, poly "dries" by two processes. First the
solvent evaporates, then the "polymerization" reaction occurs over time.
If memory serves, the second reaction at least (the "curing") is
retarded by lower temperatures. But the piece was eventually brought
into a heated space. Would it then cure properly, even if the process
had been slowed by the lower temperature?
4.The timing.
The online instructions say to wait 4-6 hours between coats. So again,
what happens if we don't wait long enough, "long enough" perhaps being
lengthened by the ambient temperature during the first hour outside?
Does the second coat prevent enough oxygen from getting to the first
coat, perhaps?
5. The radiator heat.
But of course, all of the above is to some degree an academic exercise,
with the possible exception of the condition of the can of finish. What
does Tim do now to fix it?
I'm guessing he finished the inside surfaces of the project as well. So
perhaps the first bit of advice would be to try out a repair strategy on
the inside surfaces. If successful, repeat on the surfaces that will show.
Finishing figures prominently among the topics I'm ignorant about, but
if this were my own project I'd be inclined to try removing the oily
residue with a solvent like mineral spirits. If that seemed successful,
I'd probably scuff the finish a little and reapply poly - from a
different can - just to be safe. I'd stir, and watch the temperature,
and wait a whole day before considering any further coats.
One other thing:
Perhaps, given the apartment setting and his infant son, a water-borne
poly would have been a good choice. I thought I read somewhere that
despite being *carried* by water, the poly is still poly. Does this mean
that he could try water-borne poly over what he's got (with some surface
prep, but without sanding down to bare wood)? Or is there perhaps some
other choice that's sufficiently non-hazardous to do entirely inside his
heated apartment?
Sorry for the long-winded questions (my specialty), but I have taken a
special interest in this young man's predicament for some reason. :)
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On 10/25/2014 4:44 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>
> I hope you dried it after wiping with before the damp cloth before
> applying coat #2.
I wondered about that possibility as well. Any one else have thoughts on
this?
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"Greg Guarino" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I find myself especially curious about this so I'd like to recap.
>
> Its seems we have several factors here, and two questions. The first
> question: what accounts for this strange result?
>
> Here are (some of the) possibilities:
>
> 1. The state of the can of finish.
>
> Do these have date codes? I have seen some pretty un-saleable things
> returned to the shelves of Home Depot. What happens to old poly?
How old is old? I've used stuff that was at least five years old, maybe
ten, without problems.
_______________
> 2. Insufficient stirring.
>
> The instructions say to mix thoroughly before - and even during -
> application. But what happens if we don't? Is it simply that we will
> have a more dilute mixture near the top of the can? If so it's hard to
> imagine that causing the reported symptom. After all, some of us have
> thinned poly on purpose without that result. Or maybe something else
> separates out as well?
If I don't use a can of oil paint for some time the linseed oil separates
out and floats on the top. Stirring gets it mixed back in.
If the varnish is non-glossy, one also has to mix in the flatting
agent...the gelatinous goo in the bottom. Takes lots of mixing. Time was
that the flatting material was talc; now I suspect it is fumed silica.
_________________
> If I remember correctly, poly "dries" by two processes. First the
> solvent evaporates, then the "polymerization" reaction occurs over time.
> If memory serves, the second reaction at least (the "curing") is
> retarded by lower temperatures. But the piece was eventually brought
> into a heated space. Would it then cure properly, even if the process
> had been slowed by the lower temperature?
Can't say for sure but I don't see why not. Regardless, the finish should
NOT have an oily film at any time under any conditions.
_____________________
> 4.The timing.
>
> The online instructions say to wait 4-6 hours between coats. So again,
> what happens if we don't wait long enough, "long enough" perhaps being
> lengthened by the ambient temperature during the first hour outside?
> Does the second coat prevent enough oxygen from getting to the first
> coat, perhaps?
All the floors in my house are Saltillo tile top coated with oil poly. I
apply 3-4 coats in one day, waiting between coats until I can walk on it
without sticking. That is usually 3-4 hours.
I mop on the poly so coat thickness varies considerably. The tile is also
a bit curved so in areas where the coat is particularly thick, it will run
to and pool at the corners between tiles. I try to avoid that, I look for
and smooth out any I see, but it is pretty much inevitable that I'll miss
some. In the thickest spots, the poly winds up 1/16" thick - maybe more -
but eventually dries and cures.
_________________
> 5. The radiator heat.
>
> But of course, all of the above is to some degree an academic exercise,
> with the possible exception of the condition of the can of finish. What
> does Tim do now to fix it?
>
> I'm guessing he finished the inside surfaces of the project as well. So
> perhaps the first bit of advice would be to try out a repair strategy on
> the inside surfaces. If successful, repeat on the surfaces that will
> show.
>
> Finishing figures prominently among the topics I'm ignorant about, but
> if this were my own project I'd be inclined to try removing the oily
> residue with a solvent like mineral spirits.
ONLY mineral spirits or other similar (paint thinner, turpentine).
> If that seemed successful,
> I'd probably scuff the finish a little and reapply poly - from a
> different can - just to be safe. I'd stir, and watch the temperature,
> and wait a whole day before considering any further coats.
If you wait a day, you have to sand between coats. The "window of
opportunity" for recoating without sanding stops at about eight hours
IIRC.
I would also want to assess the condition of the varnish once/if the oily
residue can be removed.
_________________
> One other thing:
>
> Perhaps, given the apartment setting and his infant son, a water-borne
> poly would have been a good choice. I thought I read somewhere that
> despite being *carried* by water, the poly is still poly.
Sort of. It is polycarbonate + acrylic. Oil poly is polycarbonate +
(probably) alkyd, could be phenolic but not likely.
Water base stuff has two useful features: 1., it doesn't color the wood
and 2., it washes out of applicators. When you get those you give up
hardness, durability and longevity.
________________
> Does this mean
> that he could try water-borne poly over what he's got (with some surface
> prep, but without sanding down to bare wood)? Or is there perhaps some
> other choice that's sufficiently non-hazardous to do entirely inside his
> heated apartment?
Once cured, you can put water poly over oil poly and vice versa.
__________________
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
> protection is active. http://www.avast.com
I'm pleased to note that, I will rest easier tonight even though this
isn't email.
PS: I use avast! too but I don't shill for them :)
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Folks that finish one piece a year (but have been doing one piece a
> year for 20 years)feel free to opine their expert opinion, because
> afterall, they have been doing it for 20 years! BTW, this isn't a
> slap at non professionals, many "professionals" are just as frickin'
> bad about not following instructions or learning their finishing
> products.
Preach it brother! I find this even in the world of "professional
automotive refinishers". These are the guys who are supposed to be tuned
into things like MSDS sheets, manufacturer's specifications, etc. but in
reality are seat of the pants-got lucky on that last job, sorts of guys. I
talk with manufacturers all of the time to confirm my notions that mix A can
really be compatible with mix B from a different manufacturer -or why that
may not be the case, and often enough there is a real reason why what seems
innocent, really isn't. Too many people think they're chemists because they
took a chemestry course in college 40 years ago and really don't have a clue
how thing interact - especially with today's compounds.
>
> Anyone can pull off good finishing, just follow the instructions on
> the can. That's what stumps me. Today's finishes are so good, so
> forgiving, and so easy to apply (follow the instructions) I don't
> really understand fouled finishes on projects made with new
> materials.
Time to pass the bread and the wine - and the collection basket! Preach it
brother!
>
> You are a professional finisher when you know your products well
> enough to know what VOC of solvent to thin with depending on the
> day's weather, you know which tip you want in your gun because there
> is a difference in "hanging" a coating and "laying" it out. You are
> fluent with paints, coatings, clear coats, and their application and
> methods of application. Better still, you understand prep.
And to this very day, I still shoot test panels - if only on a paper backer
taped up to the wall, if weather conditions are not exactly within the
definition of "normal". And... I look at that damned paper to see what is
happening - not just to see that I could seemingly shoot a spray that should
work. Man - I've screwed up enough paint jobs by thinking that conditions
were well within the range of a medium speed reducer and temps were fine
and, and, and... only to be stymied by hangs and runs that never should have
happened. Or had interactions between color coats and clear coats all for
the want of 5 more minutes of flash time. I know these interactions pretty
damned well, but I also know that there are factors that escape any attempt
to simply formulize this stuff.
>
> For everyone else, just follow the instructions on the can. No
> guessing on application techniques from others, no folkloric advice
> from around the camp fire, no Google experts needed, and no "I know a
> guy that does this XXXXX this way... I haven't tried it, but he
> swears by it" thus divesting himself from any responsibility for his
> answer.
And... just test everything you embark on. Testing is cheap and easy.
Re-working is not.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:50:58 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
> I spotted this trend at least 15 years back, and realized that
> "finishing" also known as "paintin", "stainin" and "varnishin" is
> widely
> viewed as a voodoo art.
I agree with all you wrote but snipped most in the interest of brevity.
It seems to me that the manufacturers themselves are at least partially
responsible ofr the "voodoo art" concept. Take spar varnish for one
example...thanks mostly to the manufacturers, the average Joe thinks spar
varnish is a superior, harder varnish. Not true. Heck, I don't even know
if what is labled as such IS spar varnish. I do know that it isn't easy
to find a plain old alkyd one.
Teak oil is another. Oil FROM teak? Nope. Oil FOR teak? Sure...and for
any other wood.
Minwax's Polycrylic is another. Is it multiple acrylics? Polyurethane +
acrylic? I won't even get into the puffery by many such as "rock hard".
I would like to know what things are without having to delve into the
MSDS/Tech sheets.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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On 10/30/14, 8:03 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> It seems to me that the manufacturers themselves are at least
>> partially responsible ofr the "voodoo art" concept. Take spar varnish
>> for one example...thanks mostly to the manufacturers, the average Joe
>> thinks spar varnish is a superior, harder varnish. Not true. Heck, I
>> don't even know if what is labled as such IS spar varnish. I do know
>> that it isn't easy to find a plain old alkyd one.
>
> I'll agree with you on that specific one. Mass-market
> manufacturers putting random crap in the big-box stores
> and calling it "spar varnish" does no-one any good. Use
> a real spar varnish, like Petit or Epifanes and you
> quickly see the difference.
You can smell the difference too!
I inherited several cans of "Helmsman" spar urethane and used it on an
outdoor project. It smelled exactly like Minwax poly, albeit a bit
thicker. It started flaking in about a year. I bought some Epifanes for
a different outdoor item and the first thing I noticed was the (rather
rank) odor. Wayyyy different from the Helmsman. Although the item is
mounted on a north facing exterior wall and is somewhat protected, it
has held up fine for the past 4 years.
-BR
>
> BTW, for those not familiar with it, spar varnish is _not_
> harder than other varnish, it's softer. That's because
> it's intended to go on spars, and not crack when the spar
> flexes with the wind.
>
> John
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 11/1/2014 4:47 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> I have been careful to air out the room and limit time spent when the
>> odor is strong. BUT I am concerned about 2x things
> >
>> 1) is this odor dangerous
Probably more so if you are very young or very old. It's
not the odor, it's the chemicals that are being outgassed that are the
issue. Suggest you open a window daily until you don't notice it anymore
unless you have somewhere else to put it.
>> 2) dangerous or not it is not pleasant
>>
>
>
> the odor is off gassing and will get better with time. What I can't
> say is how much time, but a second coat, properly applied, may seal in
> whatever the problem is. Heating is forcing a cure and while
> unpleasant, it may shorten the time.
On 10/27/2014 12:05 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> 4.The timing.
>>
>> The online instructions say to wait 4-6 hours between coats. So again,
>> what happens if we don't wait long enough, "long enough" perhaps being
>> lengthened by the ambient temperature during the first hour outside?
>> Does the second coat prevent enough oxygen from getting to the first
>> coat, perhaps?
>
> Like you, finishing isn't really my strong suit. But my
> understanding is that, if you recoat too soon, you're basically
> just creating one very thick coat. Since the solvent has to
> evaporate, and that happens very slowly once a skin forms on
> the finish, very thick coats are not recommended...
>
> (I note that professional finishers often spray on coats on a
> much shorter schedule than 4-6 hours. But they're spraying, so
> a much thinner coat to start with).
>
>> Perhaps, given the apartment setting and his infant son, a water-borne
>> poly would have been a good choice. I thought I read somewhere that
>> despite being *carried* by water, the poly is still poly.
>
> Water-borne poly is just that, regular poly carried by water.
> To be specific, it's regular poly in an emulsion in water.
> Once the water evaporates, you're left with the normal poly
> solvents (just much less of them).
>
> The only non-hazardous finish that comes to mind is shellac.
> But as someone pointed out (and I'd forgotten), that's not
> such a good choice with the heat from the radiator.
>
> John
>
Actually it can be worse than 1 thick coat.
In some situations the gassing off will cause a problem for the new
coat, rough finish, air bubbles, incomplete cure underneath...
It's not just a thicker coat.
--
Jeff
On 10/25/2014 11:25 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> That though does not
>>> apply to the OP's question about an oily feel. I can't figure out
>>> how he's
>>> getting that - it's just not what one would expect from poly. If I
>>> were
>>> him, I'd scuff it down and re-apply with proper stirring.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
>
>> That would be step two. Step one is to put a coat on a scrap of
>> wood Let it dry, sand, recoat as you did on the original. If it is
>> properly dried, I'd think operator error on the first try. If it is
>> oily, I'd think possibly something wrong with the poly. Very odd
>> that would happen though.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> One of the reasons I left Ohio was to get away from weather
> problems like this.
>
> The only way to do it was down in the heated basement, apply
> a coat and allow a week to cure between coats and learning
> to live with the stink.
>
> Based on what I read so far, it's time to go to Goodwill and buy
> a bag of rags, then to HD for a gallon of denatured alcohol.
>
> Wipe as much of the defective material as possible, then sand
> out starting with 150 grit using the +/- 45 degree bias method.
>
> When finished sanding, WAIT a WEEK before applying new
> material that has been prepared like Bond's martini.
>
> (Don't bruise it.)<grin>
>
> Wipe the surface down one final time before applying new finish.
>
> And now the tough part, keep the piece INSIDE and learn
> to live with the stink while it dries.
>
> After the 2nd or 3rd day, the stink won't be so bad.
>
> DAMHIKT.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>
Denatured alcohol won't put a dent in poly..
I'm not sure about acetone..
--
Jeff
On 10/30/2014 2:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:50:58 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
>
>> Finish formulas have changed (15-20 yrs ago?), to accommodate new VOC regs and concerns, yet many of the can's instructions remained the same. Unless you have perfect weather and other conditions, etc., drying and curing times may very well vary, from the ideal, and remedies, for mistakes, can be aggravating, not only for a novice, but for the experienced, as well.
>>
>
> Formulas for most states (of course with the huge exception of CA) didn't change much 20 or so years ago. The labels did. The instructions became 50% warnings about how dangerous the product was.
>
> About 15 years or so ago product ingredients changed >>all for the best<< and so did application methods and protocols. Better resins, better synthetic oils, better product/quality control, and better application research started to come to the front of the line. When I took a class at the Sherwin Williams commercial coatings division traveling seminars, it was fascinating. They loaded me up with all kinds of practical and technical information, product manuals, etc. And better still, I got to talk to some of the guys that had actually applied the products.
>
> I realized then how awful finishing is for the home guy. They don't like it (the battle cry of "I am a woodworker, not a painter") still rings in my ears from time to time. So the average woodworker learns exactly enough to get by. And, when they find something they like, THEY NEVER CHANGE.
>
> I am being bit silly here, but it is almost like "Robert, I would paint the house myself, but with my wipe on products it might take me a while, and probably 10,000 cans of finish."
>
> I spotted this trend at least 15 years back, and realized that "finishing" also known as "paintin", "stainin" and "varnishin" is widely viewed as a voodoo art. I rarely meet folks that read the cans, follow the protocols and procedures, and interface with the manufacturer. So finishing becomes almost folkloric, with bits and pieces of "knowledge" passed around on a slow day over coffee, or in an emergency situation like this one. Anything is better than doing the right prep, following the instructions on the can (what... read the instructions?), and the worst bugaboo of all... practicing your technique.
>
> It is much more fun to sit and chat knowingly about a simple finish that is a favorite, and offer suggestions to others that in the end amount to passing verbal gas. Pure conjecture. I have heard more downright bullshit about finishing than just about any other craft. It is a craft unto itself, so how the guy that had literally applied finish to a hand full of pieces that only uses one or two finishes feels capable of dispensing advice, I don't know.
>
> Folks that finish one piece a year (but have been doing one piece a year for 20 years)feel free to opine their expert opinion, because afterall, they have been doing it for 20 years! BTW, this isn't a slap at non professionals, many "professionals" are just as frickin' bad about not following instructions or learning their finishing products.
>
> Anyone can pull off good finishing, just follow the instructions on the can. That's what stumps me. Today's finishes are so good, so forgiving, and so easy to apply (follow the instructions) I don't really understand fouled finishes on projects made with new materials.
>
> You are a professional finisher when you know your products well enough to know what VOC of solvent to thin with depending on the day's weather, you know which tip you want in your gun because there is a difference in "hanging" a coating and "laying" it out. You are fluent with paints, coatings, clear coats, and their application and methods of application. Better still, you understand prep.
>
> For everyone else, just follow the instructions on the can. No guessing on application techniques from others, no folkloric advice from around the camp fire, no Google experts needed, and no "I know a guy that does this XXXXX this way... I haven't tried it, but he swears by it" thus divesting himself from any responsibility for his answer.
>
> Robert
>
LOL. no kidding...... I took me 8 separate quarts of Old Masters gel
varnish to get the hang if it. I think I am on my 4th case now and I am
happy once again. Reading the instructions and not reading anything
into the instructions helps.