Cedar vs Douglas Fir for indoor dining table

The very little work that I have done with cedar gave me the
experience
that when you put a finish on cedar, the grains will raise and raise.
Leaving you
to continually sand your project.
There is no reason you can't go to a hardwood supplier for a couple
of
4/4 and match the grain to achieve your 4x4 goal. You may even want to
measure
another tables legs to see if you should be that thick.
Lou

> For something that size, I'd send it FedEx Ground.

I need to SAND it before I send it :)

> Consider maple, oak,
> cherry, mahogany, walnut, or other hardwood that will stand up to a
> little abuse and look much better than cedar or fir. Search for your
> local hardwood dealers. It is common practice to glue up legs and if
> done properly the seams won't be very noticeable and the glued-up legs
> will be stronger than solid wood. A belt sander is too aggressive,
> consider an ROS, finishing palm sander, or hand sanding with a sanding
> block.

I'll second all of that advice! The hardwood will be more expensive
than construction-grade 4x4 type lumber, but it will be more durable,
probably more stable, and it will sure look nice. If cost is an
issue, you could get something like ash which is a good hardwood, but
is cheaper than the others (at least in my neck of the woods).

I finished a bed about a year ago, in which each post is 3 boards of 1
1/4"-thick oak, glued up to make a 3 3/4" square post. You could also
make the legs hollow - 4 pieces of 1" lumber (called 4/4 in hardwood-
ese) around a hollow (or solid) core. If the seams were on the
corners, and joined tightly, they would be very hard to see. Stickley
used this technique (called quadralinear or something like that) in
order to get quartersawn figure on all 4 sides of a square post. You
could use a miter lock router bit, but I guess those can be finicky to
set up. I'd probably just laminate thinner boards up to the thickness
you want - if you're careful, the lamination lines and grain pattern
differences won't be too obvious.

For the sander, I'd say a Random Orbit Sander (ROS) is probably the
most versatile - Home Depot has a Ryobi model for $35 which is good
for the price. Be sure to get good sandpaper (Norton 3X from Home
Depot or Mirka Gold from Amazon are my picks); that will make a big
difference. It will also improve sanding performance (and reduce
cleanup time) if you hook the sander to a vacuum cleaner or shopvac
while you're sanding. This keeps sawdust from building up on the
paper, which will leave scratches on the wood. Get an assortment of
grits and work up through all of them (100-150-180-220, maybe?) so you
don't have any swirly scratches left.

Good luck and have fun,
Andy

It sounds like maybe this project is a little bit beyond your current
skills if you aren't yet even sure what type of sander you might need.
But all of us started there too and this is a good place to learn. I'd
suggest you maybe find a basic book on table construction to ensure
you have a good understanding of how to properly attach the aprons
(lip) to the legs. and how to attach the top to the aprons, etc.

I would find someones design that seems close to what you need and
just edit it to fit your needs. There are considerations such as wood
movement (it expands and contracts and a bad design can allow it to
tear itself apart over time), sag, racking, etc.

Besides thinking about how you attach the parts as mentioned above.
Also think about how is the table top constructed. Maybe you can
describe your plan for that and some here can help you develop a good
strategy.

If you have the right tools (or access to them), you can glue up any
sized legs from any wood. The hardwood species recomended by others
cover the most common.

On Aug 15, 10:04 pm, JackpipE <[email protected]> wrote:
> I need to build indoor dining table using Cedar or Douglas Fir. That's
> the only wood I can get in 4x4 size for the legs. Ane recommendations
> as far as the wood type goes? I was told that Cedar is soft and I
> shouldn't use it for dining table. The table will be 4 x 8"x5/4"x8'
> and will have a lip around 2"x4" to create 4" table thickens effect.
>
> I'll need to polish/send the wood. Any recommendations for the sender
> type and brand. I see few different types of senders: Belt Sander,
> Disc Sander and Sheet Sander. Which one should I use for my table
> project?
>
> This is the table my wife liked and we're trying to get the same old
> style/country natural look of the table:http://www.crateandbarrel.com/family.aspx?c=881&f=14071&q=table&fromL...
>
> All tips and comments are appreciated.
> JP

Here is the table design: http://www.existonline.com/temp/table.gif

A few questions just to get you thinking.

1. How do the apron pieces attach at the legs?

2. It seems the main table top slats are in the same plane as the top
of the apron pieces. What happens when the slats expand\contract from
moisture fluxuation. Assume they might change size across the width by
2% to 3% during the year. At 32" width that is 1/3 of an inch per
percent of change. The aprons across the end won't stretch longer. I
assume the aprons at the side can't move out and in. The table top
will buckle or have gaps. If there are gaps between the slats already
you will be OK but are there? It looks not.

3. How are the table top slats held in the same plane as the top of
the aprons? The most traditional table designs have the top above the
aprons and are attached with connections (of various types) that allow
the table to expand and contract without breaking something.

You can surely make a table that looks just like your design, you just
need to build in the proper ability for movement or address it in some
manner.

On Aug 20, 7:26 am, JackpipE <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here is the table design:http://www.existonline.com/temp/table.gif

Thu, Aug 16, 2007, 5:04am (EDT+4) [email protected] (JackpipE) doth
sayeth:
<snip> I'll need to polish/send the wood. <snip>

Nah, that's OK, I'll polish it myself, you just send it.



JOAT
I do things I don't know how to do, so that I might learn how to do
them.
- Picasso

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Before you commit yourself to that width, try putting a sheet of 4x8
> ply on a pair of sawhorses and put a chair on each side. I think
> you'll find that the 48" width is more than you need. A width of
> 42" - 44" is more usual.

Good point. My dining table is 72 long but 40" wide. Even if I had the room
to accommodate larger, that extra 8" would be too far for pleasant dinner
conversation. As for length, that depends on the space you have and number
of people seated. We can comfortably seat six with no leaves and have lots
of room.

JackpipE wrote:
> I need to build indoor dining table using Cedar or Douglas Fir.
> That's the only wood I can get in 4x4 size for the legs.

As others say, there is no reason you can't glue up several thinner
pieces to reach the size you want. It is done all the time. Yes, the
glue lines may show. How much they show depends totally on your skill
in selecting the pieces for grain match and gluing them together...the
line might vary from virtually invisible to wildly obvious.

And there is no reason you can't get 4x4 lumber both in DF and cedar.
Not to mention hardwoods such as the oak table you linked to.
However, you won't find them at Home Depot/Lowes type stores...check
at a real lumber yard or on the web.
__________________

> Any recommendations as far as the wood type goes? I was told that
Cedar
> is soft and I shouldn't use it for dining table.

Pine is soft too and there are jillions of pine tables. Softness per
se doesn't preclude using a wood as long as you can accept an
occasional ding/dent/wear from use. Whack a hard wood table hard
enough and it will ding too.

One potential problem with Douglas Fir is that different areas within
the same board vary greatly as to hardness...the light colored, fast
growth wood is much softer than the orangey, slow growth part. When
sanding such, the operation will tend to take off too much of the soft
making it difficult to get the board flat. Smooth, yes; flat, no.
___________________

> I'll need to polish/send the wood. Any recommendations for the
> sender type and brand. I see few different types of senders:
> Belt Sander
> Disc Sander
> Sheet Sander.
> Which one should I use for my table project?

That really depends upon the initial condition of the wood...very
rough wood calls for more agressive sanding. That is a characteristic
of belt sanders but I wouldn't suggest one for you as it takes
considerable practice to avoid messing up your wood.

There are two kinds of disk sanders. One kind just rotates around the
central point - it is not for you as it can be even more difficult to
use and more aggresive than a belt sander. The second type rotates in
the same manner but ALSO in a small circle at the same time. They are
called "Random Orbit Sanders" (ROS). Personally, I don't much care
for them but they work OK and it is relatively hard to mess up your
work with them.

Sheet sanders come in two sizes...half sheet and quarter sheet. Each
can be had in either orbital or straight line. The orbital is most
common and they vibrate in small circles like the ROS. Straight line
aren't all that common any more and work much more slowly but give the
very best sanded surface possible. Sheet sanders don't cut as fast as
the other types but are easy to use and do a first rate job.

For your project, I would suggest either the 1/2 sheet orbital sander
or a ROS. Of the former (of all sanders, in fact), my absolute
favorite is the Porter Cable 505. Not cheap at around $160 but a tool
worth owning.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"JackpipE" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I need to build indoor dining table using Cedar or Douglas Fir. That's
> the only wood I can get in 4x4 size for the legs. Ane recommendations
> as far as the wood type goes? I was told that Cedar is soft and I
> shouldn't use it for dining table. The table will be 4 x 8"x5/4"x8'
> and will have a lip around 2"x4" to create 4" table thickens effect.
>
> I'll need to polish/send the wood. Any recommendations for the sender
> type and brand. I see few different types of senders: Belt Sander,
> Disc Sander and Sheet Sander. Which one should I use for my table
> project?
>
> This is the table my wife liked and we're trying to get the same old
> style/country natural look of the table:
> http://www.crateandbarrel.com/family.aspx?c=881&f=14071&q=table&fromLocation=Search&DIMID=400881&SearchPage=1
>
> All tips and comments are appreciated.
> JP
>
My tip today is that I ran across a $9 book (magazine) by FWW at Lowes today
"building furniture". The book includes a section about designing a table
and how to properly build one. I recommend getting it if your serious about
the project.

You can pick up the skills by taking woodworking classes. Take the classes
before buying tools, it will save you money. :-)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Before you commit yourself to that width, try putting a sheet of
>> 4x8 ply on a pair of sawhorses and put a chair on each side. I
>> think you'll find that the 48" width is more than you need. A
>> width of 42" - 44" is more usual.
>
> Good point. My dining table is 72 long but 40" wide. Even if I had
> the room to accommodate larger, that extra 8" would be too far for
> pleasant dinner conversation.

Not mention that it would make grabbing goodies from the middle
difficult :)


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

JackpipE wrote:

> The table will be 4 x 8"x5/4"x8'

> All tips and comments are appreciated.

Before you commit yourself to that width, try putting a sheet of 4x8
ply on a pair of sawhorses and put a chair on each side. I think
you'll find that the 48" width is more than you need. A width of
42" - 44" is more usual.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 05:04:27 -0000, JackpipE <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I need to build indoor dining table using Cedar or Douglas Fir. That's
>the only wood I can get in 4x4 size for the legs. Ane recommendations
>as far as the wood type goes? I was told that Cedar is soft and I
>shouldn't use it for dining table. The table will be 4 x 8"x5/4"x8'
>and will have a lip around 2"x4" to create 4" table thickens effect.
>
>I'll need to polish/send the wood. Any recommendations for the sender
>type and brand. I see few different types of senders: Belt Sander,
>Disc Sander and Sheet Sander. Which one should I use for my table
>project?
>
>This is the table my wife liked and we're trying to get the same old
>style/country natural look of the table:
>http://www.crateandbarrel.com/family.aspx?c=881&f=14071&q=table&fromLocation=Search&DIMID=400881&SearchPage=1
>
>All tips and comments are appreciated.
>JP

Not very good wood choices for a dining table. Consider maple, oak,
cherry, mahogany, walnut, or other hardwood that will stand up to a
little abuse and look much better than cedar or fir. Search for your
local hardwood dealers. It is common practice to glue up legs and if
done properly the seams won't be very noticeable and the glued-up legs
will be stronger than solid wood. A belt sander is too aggressive,
consider an ROS, finishing palm sander, or hand sanding with a sanding
block.

"JackpipE" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I need to build indoor dining table using Cedar or Douglas Fir. That's
> the only wood I can get in 4x4 size for the legs. Ane recommendations
> as far as the wood type goes? I was told that Cedar is soft and I
> shouldn't use it for dining table. The table will be 4 x 8"x5/4"x8'
> and will have a lip around 2"x4" to create 4" table thickens effect.
>

Those 4 x 4's may not be the best solution. If they are construction grade
lumber, it may warp and or twist whenit dries out. If you really want to
use it, let it dry for some time before you start. Why not call a hardwood
supplier and ask about other types of wood, such as the white oak in the one
you want to copy?



> I'll need to polish/send the wood. Any recommendations for the sender
> type and brand. I see few different types of senders:

For something that size, I'd send it FedEx Ground.