Beginners Syndrome

On 11/25/2015 5:09 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> I can put long thin points on the pencils for trims, and will often sharpen "point up" to make just two or three marks. I can put on blunt points for general marking, or for writing all over job walls as I am known to do. That way for me, one pencil fits all. If I am actually doing a day of framing (rare these days) I buy a framing pencil.

A pocket knife sharpened pencil is the only way I've had any luck
keeping a pencil lead from breaking on a construction project.

> I carry my pencil behind my ear as I have since I started out.

I was issued ears that are the non-hold variety, so I carry a pencil
above my ear, stuck up underneath my hat brim ... just don't take off
the hat for any reason during the day.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:41:20 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 11/20/15 8:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>> learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>> doesn't make mistakes.
>>
>
>Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
>it home.
>
>I'm stealing that.
Just preface it with "a smart guy I met on the internet said"

On 11/21/2015 1:39 PM, Bill wrote:
>
> Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
> the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
> advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
> (as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
> the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
> its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
> that's a different discussion).
>
> Bill

I just built, I had it in my head.
Sometimes I would come up with a new idea while working on it.

I have never built to plans. Just my head. I do have rough drawings and
sizes when working on big things, you need to, to avoid material loss.
And also if something requires an operation before another.. I make
those notes, so I don't wind up in a spot without a way to hold, or get
to a feature.

--
Jeff

On 11/21/2015 5:22 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/21/2015 3:49 PM, G. Ross wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> On 11/21/2015 9:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
>>>>> school.
>>>>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
>>>>> especially if
>>>>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not
>>>>> necessarily
>>>>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>>>>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable
>>>>> with
>>>>> the dimensions you want.
>>>>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check
>>>>> your
>>>>> thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
>>>> seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from
>>>> different
>>>> angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
>>>> based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
>>>> available.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons.
>>> Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably
>>> glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting
>>> that turned me off on drafting.
>>>
>>> Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I
>>> got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like
>>> program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines
>>> were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not
>>> Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now.
>>> Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke
>>> represented.
>>> Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I
>>> finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time.
>>> Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you
>>> mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project
>>> will look.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I did some drafting when I thought I wanted to be an engineer. Back
>> then it was SHARP pencil, t-square, triangles, and dividers to take a
>> measurement off the ruler. For final we had to do it in India ink.
>> Blueprints were really blue. Those were the days of slide rules with a
>> carrying case that fastened to your belt. I still have my K&E drawing
>> set.
>>
>
>
> Yeah! We were fancy though, we used the mechanical pencil with the
> rotary desk sharpener. We only used the India ink for the borders. Our
> drawings failed if the pencil lines did not shine.

You talking about the pencil sharpener that you put the pencil in, and
move the pencil around and it sharpens it? I have one of those. I like
the old style pencils for layouts When I can't see my knife lines, I'll
switch to one of those and put a new point on my pencil.
>
> I mentioned that I got a bad taste in my mouth with architectural
> drafting. We were graded on the blueprint, not the drawing for our
> final grade. The instructor sent a seating chart around to all of us,
> we drew lines or scribbled in the spot that represented where we sat.
> That was our only practice to see how a blueprint would come out from
> our drawings. Luckily I got a 99 on that blueprint but he subtracted 10
> points because I did not turn the drawing in on time. The drawing was
> in the class room and completed 1 week before it was due. I had been
> out of school sick for 4 days. Still got an A. That was in the early
> 70's.
>
> I still have everything too, except I have not seen the drawing board
> for a loooong time. ;!)
>
> OH! I still have my electric eraser too!
>


--
Jeff

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 8:20:27 PM UTC-8, Bill wrote:
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
> that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
> something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
> books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
> haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
> the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
> Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
> usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
> more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
>
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
> ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
> that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
> to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
> pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
>
> Bill

hah, just wait until you start getting welding or metal machining, that's a black hole you never come out of.

been, there, hell, still there now.

Al

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 10:20:27 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,=20
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome".=20

I typically figure things in my head and use drawings/measurements, in tand=
om. I generally like curvy constructions, so it's hard to figure, exactly=
, a curve or matching curves, in my head. I measure for the basics, then =
when it comes to forming the mirror image curves, I back off, "pass my eye"=
, then proceed to form the matching curves for each side, in essence, wingi=
ng it and making adjustments, as I go.

Sometimes, my "beginners syndrome" issue is "beginning the project", but mo=
re often I suffer from "finishers syndrome".

Sonny

Well... I think we all have things we intend to do, and just don't get arou=
nd to doing them. For many, buy the accoutrements is the most fun, learnin=
g to use them, not so much.=20

I think too, how long it took me to develop fluency with the tools I use al=
l the time, and honestly, to use them well took years. So I sympathize wit=
h the guy that dreams of being a cabinet builder, gets inspired by watching=
Krenov video, looks at Karl or Leon's work, or looks at a magazine and say=
s to himself "hey, I think I could do that". Sadly, they don't understand =
that it isn't the tools that make the craftsman, but the years spent using =
them to gain proficiency.

Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am surprised =
at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many folks have thousa=
nds of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a coffee table or a nig=
ht stand once a year. Sometimes a keepsake box for good measure. Second, =
I am surprised by the industrious few that do great work with very inexpens=
ive tools and at that, damn few of them. Hand me down saws used with homem=
ade guides, chisels that need to be sharpened every 20 minutes of use, no p=
neumatic guns (not even a brad nailer), just a few clamps, no drill/driver,=
etc., and yet they have a ball. And as mentioned, some really turn out so=
me nice work. Their only downfall is that it takes them months of their sp=
are time to do what it takes a pro to do in a day. =20

I think is like the guy that likes to play golf that reads a ton of magazin=
es, puts thousands into clubs, cleats, gloves, and occasional lesson, balls=
, etc., but only plays once a month. Never goes to the driving range, but =
thinks he can learn by simply playing more often.

No matter what it is, when you are doing anything that requires processes o=
f some sort, motor skills of some sort, and the confidence to use both of t=
hose skills, you don't learn without a lot of perseverance and practice. I=
know a lot of folks that have the money and the desire to do certain thing=
s, but as one of my amigos says, "then life gets in the way" and they never=
get to do the things they want.

But they can still read that magazine while sitting on the hopper first thi=
ng in the morning and keep their dreams alive.

Robert

On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 11:56:50 AM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

> Ditto ... always wear a Rockler Apron in the shop (have worn three out=20
> so far), less often on a job site.
>=20
> My paternal grandfather gave me one when I was five years old and=20
> _helping_ him in his shop. Old habits are hard to break (used a fold up=
=20
> rule, just like him, until I was in my forties).

They are indeed hard to break. When I was finally allowed to use tools, I =
was advised to purchase a heavy duty canvas waist type apron. It held my t=
ape, a ton of nails, had a pencil slot, and room for my tri square. My ham=
mer was slipped in behind one of the ties, and then later, one of the guys =
showed me how to make a hanger from heavy wire.

Leather tool bags followed, and my "teacher" advised me that if I didn't ha=
ve my bags on (with tools at the ready) then I must be a laborer, so he wou=
ld make me sweep or carry wood. So I wore my bags ALL the time.=20

Now I have two sets of bags I wear. One for trim work to hold the necessar=
ies for that work, and another set for demo/framing/siding/cornice.

Never became one with a baker style apron, and have tried more than once. =
Creature of habit, I guess.

Robert

Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:n2ngjg$dns$1
@dont-email.me:

> On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
>> lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
>> chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a
>
>
> they described some symptoms but not the real problem
>
> the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
> prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors
>
> definitely not limited to working with wood

My favorite concept in building model railroads is that of the "chainsaw
layout." It's a model railroad that you build with no other purpose than
to be a learning experience. Go, screw up, make mistakes. Make ugly
holes in the table if that's what it takes.

When you get to the point you've learned what you need to, take a
chainsaw to it and cut it out. Start fresh.

You can apply that concept to just about anything. I do it often,
sometimes I call it "iteration 1" and repeat the process 3-4 times until
I have something I'm happy with.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
> Yep, and it - AKA frugality - can be learned.
>
> When I was young and in the Navy, my camera spent most of its time in
> pawn shops. Somewhere around my freshman year in college I started
> being more frugal.
>
> Now - 60 years later - I save bits and pieces of wood...some offcuts,
> some knots cut out (I resaw the latter and make pulls from them, lots
> of swirly grain). At the moment I am making drawer dividers, all from
> "scrap".
>
> I also glue up small pieces to make bigger ones. All our closet
> hanging rods are made that way from butternut offcuts from when I made
> all our passage doors.
>
> I not only enjoy saving the $$, I enjoy finding a use for them.
>
>

I made a habit of building entire high school shop projects out of the
off-cuts and scraps saved from other's projects. First day of building,
I'd be the one in the classroom, piece of paper on the desk finalizing
(or starting ;-)) my plans... and generally avoiding the material
gathering rush.

It's harder to do that now, despite all the variety of pieces I have I
never seem to have the one I want. Things get complicated when you get
beyond 1x12 pine boards.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> What a weird website.
>
> "How to prepare your pet for rain"

It's important to prepare your fish for rain. Go to the local
party/drinks store and buy some little umbrellas for drinks. The fish
love those, and it will keep them from getting wet.

> "What panties are best for a small butt"

Take your boyfriend along and ask his opinion. He'll make sure you look
awesome, so long as he doesn't trip over his tongue.

> "How to draw bats"

It's like drawing straws, only you pick up bats instead.

> These mostly seem to be questions that don't need to
> be asked...
>
> John

Do I qualify as an expert?

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I happend to fly model airplanes (he was a team member) with a
> professor, who was a phd, a head of the engineering dept, and he had
> never worked in the private sector, only for the university. No I
> won't mention which Univ. He was good, smart, had to get grants to
> keep the program going. He did some neat stuff, but He never worked
> outside of the university. He's retired .. He had to have the best of
> everything, but did not put the time into practicing. He jumped from
> thing to thing, because he never mastered the skills required for any
> of the disciplines. He thought it was the equipment that would make
> it better.
> I cared less about the equip, and concentrated on flying, strategy,
> and learning the ropes.
>
> I also worked with 2 professors in a finance company. They did work
> for the company. Their code sucked, and their designs sucked. They
> were not practical.
>
> I also worked in the pharma research area (I'm IT) , where some of the
> phd's needed assistants to prevent them from getting lost, or for
> other basic reasons.
>
> Yes it does happen. Some of the least educated can be the most
> practical, or self sufficient. But there are real smart guys who are
> also very down to earth. The problem is there are more that are not
> well grounded.
>
>

That's why I say formal education is not the path to true intelligence,
merely one of the steps along the way.

I also believe that after a certain point, formal education holds you
back.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 11/21/2015 12:39 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
>> the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
>> advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and
>> materials (as has been adequately discussed here before). This does
>> not imply that the drawing created needs to be complete, not at
>> all--just adequate for its purpose...you don't get paid for the
>> drawing (unless you do, and that's a different discussion).
>>
>> Bill
>
>
> Being a little slow, I finally realized that BS did not mean BS. ;~)
>
> I do get paid for the drawings and what I build from them. ;~)

I does sorta work for BS, though. It's a common problem with track plan
dreaming. A curve looks absolutely beautiful on the track plan, then
you build it to scale and find out it's actually 12" radius and you need
an absolute minimum of 18"!

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:n32ptk$apd$1
@dont-email.me:

> On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:28:49 -0800 (PST)
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> 1) That's why we have trash cans.
>
> i was thinking salvage it or the fireplace
>
>> 2) Mistakes are part of the learning experience.
>
> mistakes are the learning experience
>

Mistakes are only part of the learning experience. Success is a critical
part of the experience as well. In fact, learning is a constant process
of knowledge gathering, knowledge testing and feedback. These three
stages are nicely separated for writing, but can happen at the same time
or not at all or any combination thereof.

My biggest advantage in the shop is that I play dumb: I don't know I
can't do something. I attempt it, and sometimes it works and sometimes
it doesn't.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 11/21/2015 7:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 19:37:19 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:14:36 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
>>>>>>> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
>>>>>> dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
>>>>>> I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
>>>>>> (I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
>>>>>> ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
>>>>>> the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>>>>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>>>>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>>>>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>>>>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>>>>> the dimensions you want.
>>>>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>>>>> thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
>>>> dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
>>>> of trees.
>>> Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
>>> as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
>>> more quickly.
>>
>> For trivial projects, perhaps.
> And exactly what did the craftsmen of yesteryear do, before computers
> and CAD??? They did the calculations in their heads, and drew
> "diagrams" showing how it was to go together. A lot looked like
> leonardo Davinci's drawings 0 dimensioned but not accurately scaled.
>
>
You said nothing about paper and pencil. But now that you have, yes
that is how it was done, me included, before computers. I suspect
calculations were done on paper too.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 20:41:36 -0500, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>woodchucker wrote:
>> On 11/21/2015 1:39 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>
>>> Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
>>> the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
>>> advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
>>> (as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
>>> the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
>>> its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
>>> that's a different discussion).
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> I just built, I had it in my head.
>> Sometimes I would come up with a new idea while working on it.
> The "design phase" we're talking about is designed to keep just
>that (expensive thing) from occurring!
>
>>
>> I have never built to plans. Just my head. I do have rough drawings
>> and sizes when working on big things, you need to, to avoid material
>> loss.
>> And also if something requires an operation before another.. I make
>> those notes, so I don't wind up in a spot without a way to hold, or
>> get to a feature.
>Yes, last time I did drywall work, I drew pencil lines on the walls and
>divided it up into 30 numbered parts, so I could keep track of how much
>mud I had on each part of the walls, my tape defects, etc. I recall how
>thankful I was in the spring when, I resumed my work, that I had my
>"list" (because, covered with mud, they all looked the same!)
>
Why didn't you just write the information on the walls? ;-)/2

> ... the real problem is fear of making mistakes ....

There are two positive aspects:

1) That's why we have trash cans.

2) Mistakes are part of the learning experience.

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:41:20 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 11/20/15 8:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>> learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>> doesn't make mistakes.
>>
>
>Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
>it home.
>
>I'm stealing that.
No need to steal it - I placed it in the public domain a few years
ago.

On 11/21/2015 10:55 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
>> accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
>> measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in
>> the drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up
>> what the dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations
>> can be entered.
>
> I'm not looking for an accurate view of what I'm drawing,
> and I'm not intending to take measurements off the
> drawing (which is an incredibly inaccurate thing to do,
> which is why boatbuilders loft their drawings at full
> size, so they can take accurate measurements).

Screw boat builders. ;~) Think Empire state building and bigger.
FWIW in my formal drafting classes, mechanical and architectural the
drawings had damn well better measure to scale to the dimensions drawn.

If you get buy with sketches and that works for you that is great. I'll
dare say that all drawings for building on a professional level are
drawn to scale.



>
> I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
> results of that drawing determine the measurements.
> I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
> worry about the exactness of the drawing.
>
> John
>

No, you don't get it, but unless you use drawing programs you probably
will not. That is OK.

On 11/20/2015 1:22 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>
>> Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
>> them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
>> real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
>> grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
>> anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
>> School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)
>
> That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
> not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do
> as well as teach.
>
> In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding 'tenured
> professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors are not
> alike.
>
> Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.
>

I happend to fly model airplanes (he was a team member) with a
professor, who was a phd, a head of the engineering dept, and he had
never worked in the private sector, only for the university. No I won't
mention which Univ. He was good, smart, had to get grants to keep the
program going. He did some neat stuff, but He never worked outside of
the university. He's retired .. He had to have the best of everything,
but did not put the time into practicing. He jumped from thing to
thing, because he never mastered the skills required for any of the
disciplines. He thought it was the equipment that would make it better.
I cared less about the equip, and concentrated on flying, strategy,
and learning the ropes.

I also worked with 2 professors in a finance company. They did work for
the company. Their code sucked, and their designs sucked. They were not
practical.

I also worked in the pharma research area (I'm IT) , where some of the
phd's needed assistants to prevent them from getting lost, or for other
basic reasons.

Yes it does happen. Some of the least educated can be the most
practical, or self sufficient. But there are real smart guys who are
also very down to earth. The problem is there are more that are not well
grounded.


--
Jeff

On 11/26/2015 9:42 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 11/25/2015 3:07 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>> When I use an apron, seldom in the summer because of the heat, I use
>>> this one.
>
>> Apron? APRON?? Heh...I just wear old clothes and wipe my hands on
>> them :)
>
> Aprons keep most of the sawdust off but they also hold the tools a
> cabinet maker needs with him all the time. Besides holding your pencil
> so you don't misplace it, I keep my safety glasses in one pocket, tape
> in another, small tri-square in another, Still have one left for my
> remote dust control when Santa comes, and my calculator and note pad
> in the larger chest pocket.
>
Damn Jack you are just one step away from needing a roll around tool
box. ;~) And I actually have a tool around tool box for many of the
items that you mentioned. It will roll under the right extension of my TS.


> This Rockler apron is the first one I had that can do all that
> comfortably. This has cut my old age woodworking time by at least a
> factor of 3, because most of my shop time lately has been spent looking
> for each of those "misplaced items".
>
> Now, first thing I do is put on my apron, and I can spend my time more
> usefully searching for other misplaced items I just laid down somewhere.
>
I mostly only wear my apron in the winter or if I am removing less than
a blade width of material on the TS.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >
> >Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
> >them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
> >real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
> >grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
> >anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
> >School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)
>
> That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
> not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do
> as well as teach.
>
> In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding 'tenured
> professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors are not
> alike.
>
> Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.

I learned more engineering in my first month at United Technologies than
I did in four years at Georgia Tech.

Academia has long since gone off in its own direction that has little to
do with life outside of academia.

You haven't seen a new hire with a computer science degree from a highly
regarded university struggling to write a simple program.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> Greg Guarino wrote:
> > On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
> >>> On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>> After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
> >>>> or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
> >>>> often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
> >>>> "wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
> >>>> simply doing it instead of reading about it.
> >>>
> >>> Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
> >>> magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
> >>> net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
> >>> bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.
> >>>
> >>> Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
> >>> be a criminal offense to have published it.
> >>>
> >>
> >> There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
> >> instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
> >> field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."
> >>
> >> Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0
> >>
> >>
> > It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.
>
> It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
> was somehow "wrong".
> I thought he "talked too much"!

I was an "expert" on one of those sites for a while. Didn't want to be,
wasn't my idea, my boss got invited to be the "expert" and didn't have
time to do it so he told me to do it. Aero engineering or programming
I'd be fine with--been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. Art,
antiques, and jewelry, not a clue, and that's what he had me doing. I
told him I didn't have a clue, he didn't care, then he was surprised
when they figured out that I didn't have a clue and pulled his account.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> On 11/22/2015 12:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> > I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I don't
> > want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)
>
> Buy a good apron to hold your pencil. I recommend a Rockler
> cabinetmakers Mechanical Pencil for around 10 bucks. It comes with a box
> of thick and strong 2mm lead, and a sharpener. Really nice for the shop.
>
> http://www.rockler.com/cabinetmakers-pencil-set

That's not a bad price for a leadholder and leads these days. But all
it is is a standard draftsman's leadholder and a box of leads.

> Their shop apron is decent as well, for around $20, on sale. If you are
> over 6'2 and 280 or so, it won't fit, otherwise, pretty decent apron.
> This is the one I like:
>
> http://www.rockler.com/rockler-cross-back-shop-apron
>
> You won't misplace your pencil if it's a really nice one, and you have a
> handy place to keep it.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 2:07:47 PM UTC-6, dadiOH wrote:
> > Leon wrote:
> >
> > > When I use an apron, seldom in the summer because of the heat, I use
> > > this one.
> >
> > Apron? APRON?? Heh...I just wear old clothes and wipe my hands on them :)
>
> Right there with you dadiOH! Even in shop environment, I have became one with an apron. For all manner of reasons including the advent of sturdy $12 jeans, I don't worry about the clothes I wear on the job and see them as disposable tools that are replaced as needed. Shirts seem to last a long time, though.
>
> Worse still, when I start a job that is mostly cabinet/trims/moldings, I still use a regular yellow #2 pencil! And even worse than that, since I can usually shave with my pocket knives (I carry two every day to work), I hand sharpen out on site with a pocket knife! Yikes!
>
> I can put long thin points on the pencils for trims, and will often sharpen "point up" to make just two or three marks. I can put on blunt points for general marking, or for writing all over job walls as I am known to do. That way for me, one pencil fits all. If I am actually doing a day of framing (rare these days) I buy a framing pencil.
>
> I carry my pencil behind my ear as I have since I started out. If I am doing a lot of trim that requires a fine point on the marker, I will sharpen up two or three pencils at a time and carry the extras in my pocket until ready for use.
>
> I tried the 1.5mm and 2mm pencils and one wasn't sturdy enough and the other left a mark that was too fat. I bought harder leads from the office supply house, and the 1.5 left a mark that was too faint to see.
>
> Interestingly, one of the few very successful furniture makers I know uses a BIC brand fine point with the plain white barrel, sometimes medium, as his only marking tool. He also teaches, and that is what he recommends. Marks are easy to see, as fine as you would like, and the pen never needs sharpening.
>
> Robert

I find a .5mm pencil, the kind with the retractable metal shield, works
well. If the point breaks the shield just pushes back a little. Making
a long mark on a rough surface you need to make sure the mark went all
the way to the end but otherwise it works fine.

On 11/26/2015 9:42 AM, Jack wrote:

> Aprons keep most of the sawdust off but they also hold the tools a
> cabinet maker needs with him all the time. Besides holding your pencil
> so you don't misplace it, I keep my safety glasses in one pocket, tape
> in another, small tri-square in another, Still have one left for my
> remote dust control when Santa comes, and my calculator and note pad
> in the larger chest pocket.
>
> This Rockler apron is the first one I had that can do all that
> comfortably. This has cut my old age woodworking time by at least a
> factor of 3, because most of my shop time lately has been spent looking
> for each of those "misplaced items".
>
> Now, first thing I do is put on my apron, and I can spend my time more
> usefully searching for other misplaced items I just laid down somewhere.


Ditto ... always wear a Rockler Apron in the shop (have worn three out
so far), less often on a job site.

My paternal grandfather gave me one when I was five years old and
_helping_ him in his shop. Old habits are hard to break (used a fold up
rule, just like him, until I was in my forties).


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
>> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
>
> This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
> dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
> I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
> (I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
> ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
> the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.
>
> John
>


I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.

If you need one, buy a cooking one. Cheaper and replacements are handy.
Martin

On 11/25/2015 2:07 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> When I use an apron, seldom in the summer because of the heat, I use
>> this one.
>
> Apron? APRON?? Heh...I just wear old clothes and wipe my hands on them :)
>
>

On 11/21/2015 2:14 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
>>>>> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
>>>>
>>>> This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
>>>> dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
>>>> I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
>>>> (I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
>>>> ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
>>>> the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>>> the dimensions you want.
>>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>>> thoughts.
>>
>> Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
>> dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
>> of trees.
> Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
> as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
> more quickly.
>


I'll call you on using only your brain to keep up with hundreds of parts
on a project.

On 11/21/2015 2:23 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> John McCoy wrote:
>
>> I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
>> results of that drawing determine the measurements.
>> I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
>> worry about the exactness of the drawing.
>
> I pretty much get what you are saying as I did the same thing for
> years...make a rough sketch, add dimensions. If, eg, I wanted to make a box
> 24" x 10" x 3" it made no difference if the long side was 8x the shortest in
> my sketch, what counted were the dimensions.
>
> I still do that sometimes but I also use SketchUp. It does, of course, give
> me an accurate drawing but just as importantly (to me, at least) is the fact
> that it gives me an accurate idea of how things are going to look. It also
> lets me easily play with variations or modify. And, using my drawing, I can
> do a material takeoff and and a cutting list. It's handy :)
>
>
>


And I will add, I don't do drawings to cut a board to length. ;~)

Simple stuff no need. Hundreds of parts with dado's that interlock in
the x,y,z axis I better have detailed drawings to insure the dado's,
rabbet, and half laps get cut correctly and in the right place.

On 11/21/2015 9:45 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
>> school. The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
>> especially if not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does
>> not necessarily give correct dimensions.
>
> If the dimensions aren't right, then the drawing isn't right.
> There's no point in making an incorrect drawing, whatever
> tool you use to make it.

Well if the drawing is not to scale, the drawing is not right. You did
say you did not do true scale. Or do you consider true scale to be full
scale?



>
>> You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable
>> with the dimensions you want.
>
> If the dimensions add up correctly, then it's doable.

I may not be making myself clear about the advantages to using a drawing
program vs. pencil and paper drawing. The advantage to a drawing
program is that it shows 3D at any angle and can show whether the
internal parts fit together correctly. That is not often possible with
a hand drawn drawing, especially if you are not visualizing how the
pieces fit together when you draw it.
Additionally I use a program to import my pieces from a computer drawing
into an optimization program. It is a huge time saver and increases
accuracy dramatically.



>
> There's nothing that says a drawing has to be 1/4inch to the
> foot, or even have the same scale vertically as horizontally,
> for the dimensions to be correct. By the same token, every
> woodworking magazine starts every issue with a "corrections"
> paragraph for the dimensions that were wrong in the drawings
> in the previous issue, despite using some sort of CAD program
> to create the drawing.

That is correct and in fact I could not tell you what scale my printed
drawing are when they print but they are precisely to "some" scale. The
scale does not matter as long as everything is to the same scale. But if
you are not drawing to scale the drawing can easily be deceiving and
dimensions put in by you may not show a problem. With a drawing program
the dimensions are automatically calculated between the points you
choose and will immediately tell you if the part is the correct size.
If you don't use a CAD or drawing program this is very hard to appreciate.



>
> When I make a drawing, I do front view, side view, and top
> view (and detail views for internal or assembly if I need
> it for clarity). I dimension everything, and I make sure
> the dimensions add up. And that includes factoring in tenons,
> or overlaps on rabbets, or stuff like that. But I simply don't
> bother making it to scale.

Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in the
drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up what the
dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations can be
entered.


>
> I still cut stuff wrong on occasion, but that's the fault of
> poor measuring, not the drawing.

No doubt.
>
> John
>

On 11/20/2015 11:11 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
>> lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
>> chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a
>
>
> they described some symptoms but not the real problem
>
> the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
> prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors
>
> definitely not limited to working with wood
>
>

we all make mistakes. When you learn to fix them you have reached the
craftsman level :-)




--
Jeff

On 11/21/2015 12:39 PM, Bill wrote:
>
> Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
> the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
> advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
> (as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
> the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
> its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
> that's a different discussion).
>
> Bill


Being a little slow, I finally realized that BS did not mean BS. ;~)

I do get paid for the drawings and what I build from them. ;~)

Keith Nuttle <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I think there is another factor to consider. Buying tools is one
> thing, but buying materials is another.
>
> When a person sees this piece of furniture he like, he goes out to buy
> the materials. He finds the materials is a couple of hundred dollars.
> wood, finish, handles, etc.

That is certainly a big part of it in our hobby, maybe
not so much so in others.

But it's definately true for a beginner in woodworking,
not only because the lumber, etc, is expensive, but that
being a beginner he's likely not even aware that rough
lumber exists, let alone has the tools to make boards of
it. Also, the guys with more experience (not necessarily
more skill) are likely to stuff stashed - the lumber left
over from a project, the dozen hinges bought for pennies
in a closeout sale, the screws or sandpaper or whatever
bought in bulk-pack because it'll get used eventually.

Being cost-efficient is a skill, just like using the
tools.

John

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> The only way to learn and become better is to make mistakes.

There's much truth to that - but if you make a mistake,
don't understand how it happened, how to fix it, and how
to avoid making the mistake next time, then you're not
learning, you're just stuck.

Places like this newsgroup are a good way to avoid that.

John

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
> instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
> field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."

What a weird website.

"How to prepare your pet for rain"
"What panties are best for a small butt"
"How to draw bats"

These mostly seem to be questions that don't need to
be asked...

John

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
> school. The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
> especially if not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does
> not necessarily give correct dimensions.

If the dimensions aren't right, then the drawing isn't right.
There's no point in making an incorrect drawing, whatever
tool you use to make it.

> You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable
> with the dimensions you want.

If the dimensions add up correctly, then it's doable.

There's nothing that says a drawing has to be 1/4inch to the
foot, or even have the same scale vertically as horizontally,
for the dimensions to be correct. By the same token, every
woodworking magazine starts every issue with a "corrections"
paragraph for the dimensions that were wrong in the drawings
in the previous issue, despite using some sort of CAD program
to create the drawing.

When I make a drawing, I do front view, side view, and top
view (and detail views for internal or assembly if I need
it for clarity). I dimension everything, and I make sure
the dimensions add up. And that includes factoring in tenons,
or overlaps on rabbets, or stuff like that. But I simply don't
bother making it to scale.

I still cut stuff wrong on occasion, but that's the fault of
poor measuring, not the drawing.

John

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
> accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
> measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in
> the drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up
> what the dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations
> can be entered.

I'm not looking for an accurate view of what I'm drawing,
and I'm not intending to take measurements off the
drawing (which is an incredibly inaccurate thing to do,
which is why boatbuilders loft their drawings at full
size, so they can take accurate measurements).

I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
results of that drawing determine the measurements.
I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
worry about the exactness of the drawing.

John

-MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:

>
>Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
>them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
>real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
>grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
>anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
>School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)

That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do
as well as teach.

In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding 'tenured
professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors are not
alike.

Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.

Leon wrote:
> On 11/21/2015 9:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>>> the dimensions you want.
>>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>>> thoughts.
>>
>> Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
>> seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
>> angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
>> based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
>> available.
>>
>
> ;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons.
> Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably
> glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting
> that turned me off on drafting.
>
> Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I
> got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like
> program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines
> were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not
> Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now.
> Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke
> represented.
> Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I
> finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time.
> Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you
> mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project
> will look.
>
>
>
I did some drafting when I thought I wanted to be an engineer. Back
then it was SHARP pencil, t-square, triangles, and dividers to take a
measurement off the ruler. For final we had to do it in India ink.
Blueprints were really blue. Those were the days of slide rules with
a carrying case that fastened to your belt. I still have my K&E
drawing set.

--
GW Ross

Why isn't 'phonetically' spelled that
way? --Steven Wright

On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; )

Yep, not just poetic that the initials are also descriptive of its
manifestation.

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
> that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
> something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
> books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
> haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
> the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
> Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
> usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
> more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
>
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
> ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
> that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
> to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
> pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
>
> Bill


That describes a great number here.

On 11/21/2015 3:49 PM, G. Ross wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 11/21/2015 9:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
>>>> school.
>>>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
>>>> especially if
>>>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>>>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>>>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>>>> the dimensions you want.
>>>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check
>>>> your
>>>> thoughts.
>>>
>>> Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
>>> seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
>>> angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
>>> based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
>>> available.
>>>
>>
>> ;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons.
>> Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably
>> glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting
>> that turned me off on drafting.
>>
>> Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I
>> got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like
>> program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines
>> were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not
>> Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now.
>> Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke
>> represented.
>> Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I
>> finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time.
>> Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you
>> mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project
>> will look.
>>
>>
>>
> I did some drafting when I thought I wanted to be an engineer. Back
> then it was SHARP pencil, t-square, triangles, and dividers to take a
> measurement off the ruler. For final we had to do it in India ink.
> Blueprints were really blue. Those were the days of slide rules with a
> carrying case that fastened to your belt. I still have my K&E drawing set.
>


Yeah! We were fancy though, we used the mechanical pencil with the
rotary desk sharpener. We only used the India ink for the borders. Our
drawings failed if the pencil lines did not shine.

I mentioned that I got a bad taste in my mouth with architectural
drafting. We were graded on the blueprint, not the drawing for our
final grade. The instructor sent a seating chart around to all of us,
we drew lines or scribbled in the spot that represented where we sat.
That was our only practice to see how a blueprint would come out from
our drawings. Luckily I got a 99 on that blueprint but he subtracted 10
points because I did not turn the drawing in on time. The drawing was
in the class room and completed 1 week before it was due. I had been
out of school sick for 4 days. Still got an A. That was in the early 70's.

I still have everything too, except I have not seen the drawing board
for a loooong time. ;!)

OH! I still have my electric eraser too!

On 11/21/2015 9:46 AM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
>>>> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
>>>
>>> This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
>>> dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
>>> I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
>>> (I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
>>> ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
>>> the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>>
>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>> the dimensions you want.
>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>> thoughts.
>
> Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
> dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
> of trees.
>

Big time I do the joinery in the drawings. I draw every thing precisely
as it will be built "except" where I put in Domino tenons. Because
those can be accurately placed after the pieces are cut there is no need
to draw them in place, at least the way I do them.
Adding Dominos in a drawing does not change how the pieces will be cut,
let me put that another way. I know exactly what size the Domino is and
when I draw I make an allowance for the room it needs on the component.
Adding Dominos to a drawing along with two mortises for each is very
tedious. Now having said that perhaps Sketchup Pro will more quickly
draw those mortises using the "Solid Tools". You don't get full use of
Solid Tools with the free version.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>wrote:
>
>>On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
>>>> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
>>>
>>> This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
>>> dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
>>> I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
>>> (I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
>>> ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
>>> the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>>
>>I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>>The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>>not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>>give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>>not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>>the dimensions you want.
>>With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>>thoughts.
>
>Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
>dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
>of trees.
Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
more quickly.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 11:04:23 -0500, Casper <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[email protected] was heard to mutter:
>
>> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>>learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>>doesn't make mistakes.
>
>A smart man makes a mistake, learns from it, and never makes that
>mistake again. But a wise man finds a smart man and learns from him
>how to avoid the mistake altogether. -Roy H. Williams


True that, too.

[email protected] was heard to mutter:

> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>doesn't make mistakes.

A smart man makes a mistake, learns from it, and never makes that
mistake again. But a wise man finds a smart man and learns from him
how to avoid the mistake altogether. -Roy H. Williams

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 11:24:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/21/2015 7:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 19:37:19 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:14:36 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
>>>>>>>> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
>>>>>>> dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
>>>>>>> I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
>>>>>>> (I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
>>>>>>> ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
>>>>>>> the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>>>>>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>>>>>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>>>>>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>>>>>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>>>>>> the dimensions you want.
>>>>>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>>>>>> thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
>>>>> dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
>>>>> of trees.
>>>> Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
>>>> as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
>>>> more quickly.
>>>
>>> For trivial projects, perhaps.
>> And exactly what did the craftsmen of yesteryear do, before computers
>> and CAD??? They did the calculations in their heads, and drew
>> "diagrams" showing how it was to go together. A lot looked like
>> leonardo Davinci's drawings 0 dimensioned but not accurately scaled.
>>
>>
>You said nothing about paper and pencil. But now that you have, yes
>that is how it was done, me included, before computers. I suspect
>calculations were done on paper too.
Some on paper, some on what is used to make paper (scraps of wood)
and some right in the old cranium. I know some old guys that could
give you the cosin of an angle faster than you could enter it on a
keyboard, calculate the number of board feet of limber in a log. or on
a train -car, and lay out a tennon or a doevetail joint with an
engineers square and a compass quicker than you could enter it in
Autocad..Usually without writing anything down other than the final
required numbers.

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 2:13:10 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:

> It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
> was somehow "wrong".
> I thought he "talked too much"!

Did you mean: I thought he talked "one two three one two" much.

On 11/21/2015 9:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>> the dimensions you want.
>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>> thoughts.
>
> Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
> seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
> angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
> based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
> available.
>

;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons.
Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably
glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting
that turned me off on drafting.

Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I
got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like
program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines
were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not
Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now.
Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke
represented.
Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I
finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time.
Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you
mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project
will look.

On Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 2:07:47 PM UTC-6, dadiOH wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>=20
> > When I use an apron, seldom in the summer because of the heat, I use
> > this one.
>=20
> Apron? APRON?? Heh...I just wear old clothes and wipe my hands on them =
:)

Right there with you dadiOH! Even in shop environment, I have became one wi=
th an apron. For all manner of reasons including the advent of sturdy $12 =
jeans, I don't worry about the clothes I wear on the job and see them as di=
sposable tools that are replaced as needed. Shirts seem to last a long tim=
e, though.=20

Worse still, when I start a job that is mostly cabinet/trims/moldings, I st=
ill use a regular yellow #2 pencil! And even worse than that, since I can =
usually shave with my pocket knives (I carry two every day to work), I hand=
sharpen out on site with a pocket knife! Yikes! =20

I can put long thin points on the pencils for trims, and will often sharpen=
"point up" to make just two or three marks. I can put on blunt points fo=
r general marking, or for writing all over job walls as I am known to do. =
That way for me, one pencil fits all. If I am actually doing a day of fram=
ing (rare these days) I buy a framing pencil.

I carry my pencil behind my ear as I have since I started out. If I am doi=
ng a lot of trim that requires a fine point on the marker, I will sharpen u=
p two or three pencils at a time and carry the extras in my pocket until re=
ady for use.

I tried the 1.5mm and 2mm pencils and one wasn't sturdy enough and the othe=
r left a mark that was too fat. I bought harder leads from the office supp=
ly house, and the 1.5 left a mark that was too faint to see.

Interestingly, one of the few very successful furniture makers I know uses =
a BIC brand fine point with the plain white barrel, sometimes medium, as hi=
s only marking tool. He also teaches, and that is what he recommends. Mar=
ks are easy to see, as fine as you would like, and the pen never needs shar=
pening.

Robert

On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
> that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
> something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
> books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
> haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
> the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
> Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
> usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
> more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
>
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
> ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
> that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
> to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
> pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
>
> Bill


And just to add a bit more.
Tools, not the ones you use to cut wood, the ones you use to design with.

I used tp build furniture long before I got my first computer and it
took me forever to build something.
It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)

And until Sketchup I was not terribly fast even using AutoCAD LT.
I suspect that Sketchup is as revolutionary to wood workers as the
SawStop and Festool Domino...

If you are not using that program yet you should be.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:14:36 -0500, [email protected] wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:46:41 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 11/20/2015 8:59 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
>>>>> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
>>>>
>>>> This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
>>>> dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
>>>> I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
>>>> (I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
>>>> ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
>>>> the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>>>The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>>>not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>>>give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>>>not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>>>the dimensions you want.
>>>With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>>>thoughts.
>>
>>Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
>>dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
>>of trees.
>Properly programmed, the software between your ears can do every bit
>as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
>more quickly.

For trivial projects, perhaps.

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:39:49 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 11/20/2015 11:11 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
>>> lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
>>> chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a
>>
>>
>> they described some symptoms but not the real problem
>>
>> the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
>> prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors
>>
>> definitely not limited to working with wood
>>
>>
>
>we all make mistakes. When you learn to fix them you have reached the
>craftsman level :-)
The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
doesn't make mistakes.

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 10:20:27 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
> that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
> something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
> books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
> haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
> the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
> Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
> usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
> more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
>
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
> ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
> that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
> to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
> pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
>
> Bill

And then for us the awesome sight of cheap woodworking tools at rummage sales.

On 11/20/2015 12:35 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/20/2015 11:56 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am
>> surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many
>> folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a
>> coffee table or a night stand once a year.
>
> Leon might remember this:
>
> Years back helped a dear friend sell off her ex's equipment out of his
> air conditioned, 3600 sf shop, after the divorce.
Snip



Yes I remember well.

On 11/20/2015 2:22 PM, Sonny wrote:
> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 2:13:10 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:
>
>> It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
>> was somehow "wrong".
>> I thought he "talked too much"!
>
> Did you mean: I thought he talked "one two three one two" much.
>


His lyrics suck

On 11/20/2015 12:29 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Electric Comet wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
>>> lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
>>> chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a
>>
>>
>> they described some symptoms but not the real problem
>>
>> the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
>> prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors
>>
>> definitely not limited to working with wood
>
> The only way to learn and become better is to make mistakes.
>
>

Exactly and you are not good until you can masterfully hide those
mistakes because they continue to happen. :~)