Home Depot Plywood Quality

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message ne
> Swingman wrote:
>
> > Inflation? ... what inflation?
>
> Try energy costs.

Tell me about it ... even the trades are putting "fuel cost" clauses in
their bids the past two months.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 25, 11:11 am, HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:
> There's no point to this message, other than I need to vent somewhere...
> :)
>
> I'm building a new entertainment center and just bought three sheets of
> 3/4" birch plywood and one sheet of 1/2" birch plywood from my local Home
> Depot. This has to be some of the worst plywood I have ever purchased!
>
> I didn't notice it till I got home and unloaded, but the faces of the
> sheet had numerous blemishes and patches (both sides). I should have
> looked it over better at the store, BEFORE I started cutting. :)
> Thankfully, I managed to cut around the major blemishes, or hide them in
> places where they can't be seen. Unfortunately, this left me a little
> short, so now I need to pick up a quarter sheet to build the last two
> shelves.
>
> The plywood is also riddled with numerous voids. I don't think I have
> made a cut yet that hasn't had pieces of the core falling out.
>
> Even the grain pattern of the sheets is less than attractive. I'm not
> sure what kind of birch trees they got the wood from, but this stuff is
> ugly! :)
>
> Perhaps worst of all, the surface veneers are extremely thin and fragile.
> It appears to be thinner than a sheet of paper. I bought brand new saw
> blades for making this project, and the chipout is absolutely horrible. I
> also sanded a couple of pieces yesterday, and can sand through the veneer
> in less than 20 seconds with 100 grit paper. Now my project is almost
> finished, and I'm almost scared to sand it for fear of sanding through
> the veneer and exposing the core.
>
> Worst of all, I paid $40 a sheet for this stuff at Home Depot, and then
> saw MUCH better quality lumber at Lowes (where I normally get my plywood)
> for only $30 a sheet.
>
> The plywood sucks, but a lot of the fault obviously lies with me. I made
> the mistake of shopping on a weekend, when the rest of the DIY crowd was
> crowding into the store. I thought the convenience of having my wife and
> daughter there to help load the cart would be nice. But, in my attempt to
> get in and out of the store, I didn't inspect the sheets closely enough.
>
> Anyway, I'm almost finished with my entertainment center and am happy
> with the way it is turning out. Despite the poor quality lumber, I have
> managed to hide the worst blemishes. If I can pull off sanding the
> project next week without destroying it, there's still a chance it might
> turn out OK.
>
> Live and learn...
>
> Anthony

The Aruca (sp?) at Lowes is decent as far as splintering and has few
voids and it is cheaper than the Birch. Never tried staining it.

On May 25, 10:44 am, "efgh" <[email protected]> wrote:

> All the more reason to use solid wood instead of plywood.- Hide quoted text -
>

You bet. At about $5.5 a bf for clear birch here, that would make the
material cost around $450 when you include sales tax and a tiny bit of
waste. Makes great sense.

Then of course, you get to do the monster layup. I don't know if you
have ever glued up a really wide,long section of wood, but it can be
really hard to control well once you get past about 16" when doing
larger lengths. Plus with the crappy, poorly dried and conditioned
product we are sold today, my personal experience is that a really
large glue up is more of an adventure than an exercise in skill.

But - think of all the extra time in the shop doing glue ups! Extra
shop time for a much more difficult project, 5 times the price for
material... what's not to like?

Robert

On May 25, 10:44 am, HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:

>Assuming I don't destroy the project when I start >sanding, it will all work out in the end.

You really need to be extra careful when sanding. I finished up some
tables for the VFW (utility type tables) and this was the material
that was in their budget.

I have never seen face veneer that thin. I don't think you could
spray it on any thinner. I sanded right through that stuff due to
some little bumps in the underlying substrate. Luckily, the face of
the pieces weren't all that interesting, so with some finish on the
top it didn't matter.

I used to buy the "China ply" at HD and it was a decent product. No
matter whose plywood it is, it won't be the baltic/russian/cabinet ply
stuff with no voids at all in the layers of wood, so that wasn't a big
thing.

But the faces on the stuff I bought last week were really bad. The
veneer splintered really badly, some of the pieces were covered with
footballs (plugs), and the pink glue they used to press the plies
together stunk like something was burning.

So for me that stuff has not been relegated to utility/paint grade
material.

I fear that if I go to my hardwood supplier though, his $60 a sheet
birch won't be that much better.

Robert

On May 25, 11:44 am, HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon,
>
> >> I'm building a new entertainment center and just bought three sheets
> >> of 3/4" birch plywood and one sheet of 1/2" birch plywood from my
> >> local Home Depot. This has to be some of the worst plywood I have
> >> ever purchased!
> > Learning to look at what you are buying is a good practice.
>
> Yeah, I usually inspect the lumber I buy with much greater detail, but I
> guess I was busy looking at my lady and talking with her instead. :)
>
> > BUT when the plywood becomes delaminated or pieces start falling out I
> > Take It Back. Sure it is cut but the piece is defective, how would
> > you know if you had not cut it?
>
> Good point, but it's all hindsight now. Assuming I don't destroy the
> project when I start sanding, it will all work out in the end.
>
> Anthony

I had a similar experience, but the real problem was in finishing it.
The oak veneer I got was so thin that the pores opened to the adhesive
surface underneath. The stain would not take on the adhesive, so I
had a poor stain job. I ended up having to use Mohawk's Blendal
sticks to correct it.

On May 25, 12:10 pm, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:


> Two (2) mistakes:
>
> 1) Walking thru the doors of Home Depot.
> 2) Thinking they even know what Birch cabinet plywood is, much less
> sell it.
>
> Plywood distributors exist for a reason.
>
> Lew

You know, as a sidebar to this, Home Depot sold quality plywood a few
years ago. (5?- 7?) It was the same stuff I got at my hardwoods guy,
even the same stamps sometimes. It was just a about 20% less.

Then they sold a hardwood faced ply that was called something like
"cabply" or "cabinet ply" with no claims as to what wood it was. It
was clear, had the appearance of first veneer cut ash, not anything at
all resemblign birch, but was very close grained. Not porous at all.
It came from Chile, so of course we called it Chiliply. I used a lot
of it for all kinds of things stained and painted.

Now they sell that junk. When I built the aforementioned tables, I
was really surprised as some of that stuff was a full 3/16" out of
square! OK, we are all past thinking that a sheet of >anything< is
square. But 3/16"?

My point is that when they sold the better stuff, there was a thriving
market for it. A lot of the cabinet guys and smaller contractors ate
that stuff up. Many times I would go to HD to get some, and they
would be out. At the price, it made wonderful small cabinets, paint
grade vanities, uitlity room cabinets, etc. I know it is a function
of money/time on the rack/bottom line, etc., but I can't figure out
why they QUIT carrying a better grade since it was selling. The sold
the daylights out of that stuff.

Now they have the Chinaply whenever I would want it. Problem is, I
don't. There is so much in the racks, apparently a lot of others
don't either.

Robert

On May 25, 1:56 pm, HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > the pink glue they used to press the plies
> > together stunk like something was burning.
>
> Interesting, I noticed that smell when I was making some cuts, but didn't
> see any signs of burning on the wood.
>
> Anthony

Nothing burned, it just smelled like it. That was the confusing
part. I am sure the Chinaply is bound by something made from boiled
animals and food remnants.

Just as a tip, if you are going to edge this stuff, put your edging up
a little where you can, covering the edge plus a little and then sand
by hand to get down to the whisper of veneer.

Robert

Just out of boredom, I went by HD at lunch today. This was in Fort
Smith, Arkansas. I noticed they had two kinds of birch ply. One was
labeled "3/4 inch birch plywood" and sold for 39.00. The other was
labeled "3/4 inch Classic birch plywood" and sold for 29.00. Both
were stamped "Made in China". I didn't ask what the difference was
because I knew no one working there would know. Anyone have a clue? I
miss Jerry's Home Center in Eugene Oregon.

On May 25, 11:53 pm, [email protected] (Larry W) wrote:
> Welcome to the wonderful world of modern materials. I've used the birch
> and oak ply from both Lowes and Home Depot. I never let 100 grit or anything
> coarser than 150 get anywhere near it. As you've noticed, the face veneer
> is extremely thin. I don't think there's much you can do do change this
> without a time machine.
>
> --
> When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.
>
> Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

Larry,

I in Balto as well. The last batch of HD oak ply I bought (about 5
sheets) was horrible. Thin veneer as you said, but it seems to me
that the glue is crap. Unacceptable splintering on crosscuts (to the
veneer) and wonderful suprise voids. Recently I used Freestate
Timbers for solid hardwood. Who do you use for quality hardwood
plywood?

Dave - Parkville

On May 25, 11:11 am, HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:
> There's no point to this message, other than I need to vent somewhere...
> :)
>
> I'm building a new entertainment center and just bought three sheets of
> 3/4" birch plywood and one sheet of 1/2" birch plywood from my local Home
> Depot. This has to be some of the worst plywood I have ever purchased!

...

It's paint grade. Shellac isn't the only favorite finish on this ng.

On May 26, 8:27 am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "HerHusband" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Perhaps worst of all, the surface veneers are extremely thin and fragile.
> > It appears to be thinner than a sheet of paper. I bought brand new saw
> > blades for making this project, and the chipout is absolutely horrible. I
> > also sanded a couple of pieces yesterday, and can sand through the veneer
> > in less than 20 seconds with 100 grit paper. Now my project is almost
> > finished, and I'm almost scared to sand it for fear of sanding through
> > the veneer and exposing the core.
>
> > Worst of all, I paid $40 a sheet for this stuff at Home Depot, and then
> > saw MUCH better quality lumber at Lowes (where I normally get my plywood)
> > for only $30 a sheet.
>
> THD has a 30 day satisfaction return policy on just about everything. You'd
> be surprised at what they will allow to be returned. You should have
> returned the plywood when you noticed it was so substandard. They will also
> price match, plus a 10% kicker on any competitor's like product.
>
> I have a problem with all of the posts here about lumber that guys go out
> and buy (... and select from the pile themselves), and then post complaints
> about the inferior quality of such things as should have been obvious when
> they were buying it. Plys are easy to see, right on the rack. Fills are
> easy to see. Shame on you for not taking the time to look it over better,
> but why post a vent about how crummy the product is when you are the one who
> selected it?
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]

Mike,

In my case, I knew I was buying lower quality at $40 sheet for oak
plywood. I was making a base for a workbench (someone gave me a solid
core door). I knew the veneer was thin, but this was OK for my
purpose. The biggest problem I had was with the glue holding the
veneer on. It seemed weak and I think contributed to the chipping on
the cross cuts. All in all my base is fine. The quality was just
lower than low. (not to mention the crappy looking dark wood mixed in
with the plys - but as you said, I saw that when I bought it)

Dave

On May 26, 11:47 am, HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> > THD has a 30 day satisfaction return policy on just about everything.
> > You'd be surprised at what they will allow to be returned.
>
> I guess I figured wood was one of those "non-returnable" items. Like buying
> anything electrical at an autoparts store. Especially after I have cut it.
>
> > I have a problem with all of the posts here about lumber that guys go
> > out and buy (... and select from the pile themselves), and then post
> > complaints about the inferior quality of such things as should have
> > been obvious when they were buying it.
>
> In my case, it's not like I have many options. Home Depot or Lowes are
> about it for cabinet plywood. There used to be a hardwood supplier in town,
> but they closed down a few years ago. Some of the lumber yards "might" have
> cabinet ply, but it's not typically out where you can see it. You usually
> have to pay first, and hope there's something good when you drive back to
> pick it up.
>
> So, I guess I figured plywood is plywood, and would be about the same
> everywhere. Like I said, live and learn...
>
> > Plys are easy to see, right on the rack. Fills are easy to see.
> > Shame on you for not taking the time to look it over better
>
> In all fairness, I "did" examine the sheets in the store. I dug through
> several sheets to find the best three in the stack. But even the "best" had
> problems. I also didn't notice any real voids in the ply's on the edge.
> Maybe one or two small ones, but I had no idea the whole sheet was filled
> with them.
>
> As for the thin veneer, it's not visible to the naked eye. What I
> "thought" was the veneer layer on each side was actually just another core
> ply. Even after cutting and intensely examining a small piece, I can't see
> the veneer layer. It's that thin...
>
> I also had no way of knowing the wood would splinter so badly when
> crosscut, until I cut into it.

Use a zero clearance plate to support the board right up to the
blade. Make two
passes. First cut should be a light scratch to score the veneer,
followed by a
second, full thickness cut. That applies whether you're sawing cheap
HD
ply or expensive furniture grade.

On May 25, 3:23 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I just got a quote from my hardwood dealer yesterday for 3/4"x4x8 A1 rift
> sawn red oak - $115.95/sheet; up $11/sheet since I bought the last load just
> about one year ago.
>
> Inflation? ... what inflation?

No shit, eh? Some pundits insist it has to do with fuel costs and
exchange rates.
I'm thinking multi-million dollar exec bonuses can't help either.
Inflation is a dirty word with ANY ruling party. They all want you to
think that they have the economy under control.
But you can't keep pouring mega-billions into a bonfire and you can't
keep printing more to make up for it without causing inflation.

But you know what? It has never, ever been different. The biggest
difference is that we have a better, more accurate view of the mess,
due to accelerated information sharing.

It is a bit like riding through a sewer in a glass-bottomed boat.
Donkey and elephant turds all stink.

On May 25, 5:44 pm, "EXT" <[email protected]> wrote:
> What most Americans don't know is that the US currency is in the toilet. I
> run a Canadian company which has 99% of its income in US dollars. Our
> revenue is up but when converted to Canadian dollars it becomes less than
> years before. I used to get $1.60 Canadian for every one US dollar, now I
> only get $1.08 per US dollar and the experts say that the two currencies
> will be par by year end.
>
> This means that whatever you bought a couple of years ago that was imported,
> now it is going to cost you almost 50% more today because the other
> currencies in the world have not dropped as much as the US dollar.
>
> Home Depot, Wal-Mart and many others compensate by buying even cheaper crap
> so that the price doesn't go up, that is why the plywood is now pure junk.
>
Precisely. Well put.

On May 26, 2:29 pm, Dave Balderstone
<dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Lew
>
>
>
> Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Brian Henderson wrote:
>
> > > There really is no way to have effective mass transit in Southern
> > > California without tearing down the entire state and starting over.
> > > It just wasn't designed that way. Most of the currently existing mass
> > > transit we have runs nearly empty because it just doesn't fulfill the
> > > needs of the majority of potential users.
>
> > Seems there may be a change underway.
>
> > Trying to use the mass transit system to get someplace in a hurry, is
> > a lost cause at present; however, every time I ride the light rail, it
> > is full, especially the Long Beach run.
>
> > Other "commuter" runs are showing an increase in ridership.
>
> > Personally, would like to see $10/gal gasoline.
>
> > Suddenly, there would be a whole new way of looking at things.
>
> In some places. Here in Canada, it would have a nasty economic impact
> because of the huge distances we have to move goods, both imported and
> for export. It would kill western Canadian farmers.

Question would be, where would the yield of that huge increase go?
Who knows, maybe we can start over and move stuff the efficient way
again? Like trains?
What's with all them damned trucks on the road?

The farmers could simply say: "If you want this farking grain, come
and get it, you asshats!!"

But I'm afraid you're right, Dave... it would kill them first.

On the imported goods front, maybe we'd get off our collective asses
and start making our own plywood again?

On May 26, 1:38 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Here in Houston we are burdened with these extra long, >foul smelling, smoke spewing, articulated buses that'll >hold around 100, half full.
>
> In 20 years I don't think I've ever seen one with more > than 6 passengers, including the driver.

Witnessed that myself on many a time. But I always thought the
billows of unburned fuel were to help with the mosquito population..
no?

The only time I saw a lot of folks on public transportation there in
Houston was when they opened the downtown rail. Jeez... I remember
how hard some fought that. I was actually there when they ticketed a
lady and towed her car because she parked on the tracks and wouldn't
move her car - not even for the train.

Robert

On May 26, 1:14 pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

SNIP

> But you know what? It has never, ever been different. >The biggest difference is that we have a better, more >accurate view of the mess, due to accelerated >information sharing.
>
> It is a bit like riding through a sewer in a glass-bottomed >boat. Donkey and elephant turds all stink.

Well said. I absolutely couldn't agree more. It is stupid beyond all
description to think that governmental waste and stupidity is
something new.

And with our political party system, it is hard to tell one from the
other these days as they will tell you anything you want to hear to
get elected and stay in office.

They all suck, it just depends on how you want your poison.

Robert

On May 26, 3:02 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[schnipferizectomy]
>
> And with our political party system, it is hard to tell one from the
> other these days as they will tell you anything you want to hear to
> get elected and stay in office.

No different here in Canuckistan.
But that blantant sell-out of the Dems, for a paltry 20 billion in
pork, so they could give Chimp his 100 billion is extortion, pure and
simple. I let you have 20 if you give me my 100. That Pelosi is as big
a piece of shit as that DeLay was.
As long as it costs half a billion to get elected POTUS, big business
will always dictate who it is going to be. That is especially handy
these days with corruptable electronic voting machines.
This will go on and on and on. So will the attempts to take away the
right to bear arms..can't have the serfs too pissed, you know...

But... maybe 100 years from now our children's children will have
their own Bastille Day.

And just because I want to help the poor, that doesn't disqualify me
from drawing a bead on the first fool who wants to send my kids off to
a foreign land to fetch some oil for the governor's Hummer.

> They all suck, it just depends on how you want your poison.

I'll take mine from a tap at the pub. Freedom through death, one pint
at the time..(I'll be 100)

On May 25, 5:10 pm, Mike in Arkansas <[email protected]> wrote:
...
> ... two kinds of birch ply. One was
> labeled "3/4 inch birch plywood" and sold for 39.00. The other was
> labeled "3/4 inch Classic birch plywood" and sold for 29.00. Both
> were stamped "Made in China". I didn't ask what the difference was...

$10/sheet...

On May 26, 6:16 pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> *Fewer military deaths in six years of Afghanistan/Iraq war than in 8 years
> of the previous administration's peace years.

Excuse me?

On May 27, 2:13 pm, "EXT" <[email protected]> wrote:
[schnipperectomized]
>

> Enough said, this is a thread about rising costs for wood products while
> quality is going down in the US, not about Toronto's mismanagement of money.

My company sold and installed quite a few solid surface countertops in
Michigan when the exhange was $1.55. I was getting full margins and
the US customer had a built-in fabulous discount.
I haven't done any serious business in Michigan for 2 years now.
I do get a break buying stuff in Michigan for my business and personal
use.

On May 27, 10:39 pm, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote:

> or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?
>
But FIRST we do a feasibility study to see if the desired path
warrants a steering committee in order to fund a research group in
order to see if we can synchronise all the lobbies and focus groups to
make discoveries to establish re-electabilty. After they write a
proposal to investigate the ramifications due to financial and
environmental impact of any and all proposals...when we get that all
ironed out, it's time to move on to the next big step: we drum up
support by printing leaflets which we will hand out at all the White
Castle outlets. THEN we develop a plan. As long as it doesn't impact
the Slippy-Bellied Snail population and/or the spotted owls. Oh.. and
we need to hire some lawyers.

Is that what you mean, Morris?

o=BFo

(tongue firmly planted in cheek)

On May 28, 1:26 am, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Ever the optimist, I keep hoping that "addressing the problem" will
> mean more than just endlessly (re)specifying the problem.
>
> Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
> that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack the
> will to implement.
>
In my quest to find a place to work and grow into, an option to buy a
strip-mall with light industrial zoning resulted in having a few
meetings with a few 'doers'. The place was simply too big for just
lill' ol' me and I wanted to offset my financial commitments. I
offered a symbiotic environment to a few small contractors which
bolted on to what it is I do. they included a high-end tile merchant
and a hardwood flooring installer. We've all know each other for years
and felt we had a marvellous opportunity.
The property in question had been a water treatment plant for bottled
water and some of the stainless tanks were still there, left for
scrap.
I noticed a little tag dangling from one of the valves which
instructed me to get in touch with an agency regarding the
'decommissioning' of installed equipment.

The meetings that ensued could have been straight from a horror
movie.... a psychological thriller. Marquis deSade with an MBA and
sandals and some training in extortion.
He spent an hour with his Powerpoint presentation explaining how
incredibly powerful and important he was. He then handed out 10-pound
1000-page questionnaires (ok, I am embellishing a little here) and it
went down-hill from there. About an hour later, as I scanned the room,
I saw faces looking at me with 'WTF' eyes and it was instantly clear
that the meeting had come to an abrupt end. As I snapped my briefcase
closed, I heard the simultaneous snapping of the other briefcases, and
we were outta there.
I thanked the bureaucrat for his time and told him I'd be in touch.

That farktard was going to bury us in bullshit so he could justify his
existence.
We were there to get going, to get started, roll up sleeves and go
nuts...he was there to make sure that wasn't going to happen. Almost a
year later, that building is still sitting there... and farktard is
wringing his hands looking for somebody who wants to play his game.

On May 31, 9:51 am, HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> So, today I'm going to start applying the finish coats of >polyurethane. That will probably take a few days to >complete. I'll try to post some
> pictures in the binaries newsgroup when I'm finished.
>
> Take care,
>
> Anthony

Sounds like you got it licked. Good for you! I for one would like to
see your work and hope you post some pics.

Robert

On May 25, 1:49 pm, HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:
> > All the more reason to use solid wood instead of plywood.
>
> It's hard to beat the cost and stability of plywood, and solid wood has
> it's own share of issues. Warping, cupping, splitting, etc. I did buy a lot
> of solid wood for trim, drawer fronts, etc. and it's not picture perfect
> either.
>
> Of course, then there's the issue of gluing up panels and the labor (and
> goofs) involved with that.
>
> Anthony

I buy solid wood and hardwoodplywoods at www.creativewoodworksusa.com
Birch is only $1.95 per foot and plywoods are around $35.They will
ship and it isn't as expensive as I thought it would be for shipping.

HerHusband wrote:
> Because of the blemishes in my full sheets, I had to run down and
> pick up another 1/4 sheet of 3/4" plywood today. I didn't want to
> spring for a full sheet, and Lowes was out of the precut panels, so
> it was back to Home Depot.
snip
> Anthony

If I recall your local to me (Vancouver area).....have you ever tried
Shurway(on St. Johns rd)?.....they have quite a selection of hardwood ply
(lots), hardwood lumber and other interesting odds and ends. Prices seem
competitive and even sometimes low. I haven't bought full sheets lately but
last fall they had stacks of 2ft by 4ft birch panels (less than $8.00 ea)
that worked great for a few small projects.....Rod

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> EXT wrote:
>> What most Americans don't know is that the US currency is in the
>> toilet. I run a Canadian company which has 99% of its income in US
>> dollars. <snip>
>
> Didn't realize the Canadian situation; however, I can tell you that
> the USD is also in the tank vs the Euro.
>
> Spending money you don't have, to finance a war, will do that.
>
> Lew

Not really....the massive trade deficit will do that.....tis a function of
floating currency values. As we import massive quantities of expensive oil,
Natural gas, Chinese everything etc. other countries can only hold on to so
much U.S. currency before the relative currency value goes down. Imports may
cost more but American products become more competitive and U.S. jobs
increase....In fact our deficit spending keeps relative currency values from
plummeting further since exporters buy our "notes" with their excess U.S.
currency.......Rod

Morris Dovey wrote:
> Actually, most Americans /do/ know it. If you look at it from the
> outside, then the dollar is in the tank - and when you look at it from
> the inside, then the cost of everything bought with dollars is
> skyrocketing. Either way, it's the same inflation.

Uh, no. The current inflation rate of about 34% compares favorably with the
inflation rate of 2000-06 of 2.45%, 1990-99 of 3.0%, and 1980-89 of 5.55%.

"Skyrocketing" ocurred during the Carter years: 1970-79 7.09%

>
> What most Americans don't seem to recognize is that it's all happening
> in a completely predictable "cause and effect" sequence, and that the
> current level of inflation is merely a gentle introduction...

Very gentle. Productivity, GDP, and personal income all exceed inflation.

>
>> This means that whatever you bought a couple of years ago that was
>> imported, now it is going to cost you almost 50% more today because
>> the other currencies in the world have not dropped as much as the
>> US dollar.

Nothing bought two years ago costs 50% more today (except maybe energy). Not
steel, aluminum, grain, manganese, or manufactured goods.

>
> It's not just imported goods - the cost of doing business in the US is
> being affected and the cost of domestic goods is on the same track as
> imported goods. It's just a little further back on the train because a
> lot of American businesses are dragging their feet on raising prices.
>
> There's not much good anywhere in the picture. As the US dollar drops
> relative to other currencies, Americans will necessarily cut back on
> their purchases of imported goods - leaving exporters with excessive
> inventory, excessive capacity, and excessive employment. Worse, or at
> least as bad, obligations payable in US dollars will be paid in
> devalued currency (which you're already experiencing).
>
>> Home Depot, Wal-Mart and many others compensate by buying even
>> cheaper crap so that the price doesn't go up, that is why the
>> plywood is now pure junk.
>
> That can only be carried so far. At some point the merchandise becomes
> so crappy that no one wants to buy it, the prices are forced up anyway
> to the point where the merchandise becomes unaffordable, and the
> commercial structure needs to be rebuilt.

This has never happened in the past, but your predictions of economic mayhem
are just as valid as other economists.

>
> About then some damn political cowboy will come along and tell us:
> "Hey! War is _good_ for business."

Well, it is. GDP increased 26% from 2000 to 2005 ($9.8 to $12.4 trillion) or
about $3,000 per person in constant 2000 dollars.

This, coupled with a net saving in military lives*, makes war a win-win
scenario.

====
*Fewer military deaths in six years of Afghanistan/Iraq war than in 8 years
of the previous administration's peace years.

Robatoy wrote:
> On May 26, 3:02 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> As long as it costs half a billion to get elected POTUS, big business
> will always dictate who it is going to be.

How so? You do know the individual limit on campaign contribution is just a
thousand or two, corporations can't officially buy their way in.... although
speech, book and Presidential libraries do allow rewards beyond
oversight.......The media's favorite candidate does get a leg up on the
process(free & biased coverage) but often as not the voters reject the
chosen darling

>That is especially handy
> these days with corruptable electronic voting machines.

Agreed....Without a paper trail it is not a question of if but rather when.

Our state has moved to "mail ballots only" of which is as bad .....Even
worse we lose a sense of community and patriotism.....Our family including
the grown kids would gather prior to a election to discuss issues and
candidates then troop down in mass to vote together (same
district)......when the youngest came of age we documented the vote with
pictures and a voting pizza party

Rod

Han wrote:
> Don't know whether it would. It might kill a bit of the road and auto
> industry, but people will need food. Currently (at least here in
> North Jersey) there is a growing "need" for people to feel good and
> shop for groceries/veggies/whatever that is grown "nearby".

a tiny yuppie filled feel good niche.....The other 80% depend on the
efficient farm or the norm.....Incidentally even local farms require lots of
fuel for tractors and equipment .......Transportation of crops to the market
accounts for a tiny slice.



That
> would impact faraway growers as well, be they West Canadians or
> Australians. IMHO, things that will reduce petroleum production are
> good, for very many reasons.

The Sierra club would be proud however sloppy thinking is still slop
.....personal affordable transportation based on oil has done more for the
"everyday man" than almost any other 20th century invention.......The
freedom for work, play and life necessities would fill volumes. The very
fact that virtually all alternatives require massive subsidies often as not
from oil itself to become remotely viable tells volumes....we have to make a
"good thing" pay for those things "not so good'...doesn't this beg the
question of why? Rod

CW wrote:
> If you can't think of ways around that, you're not thinking very hard.

I covered that under "speech, book and Presidential libraries" nonetheless
the $100-200 million or whatever directly raised for a presidential election
is from "small" contributors.....without this support it is not going to
happen .... not to mention that most "big business" contribute to both
parties to hedge their bets. Rod

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "HeyBub"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>> Actually, most Americans /do/ know it. If you look at it from the
>>> outside, then the dollar is in the tank - and when you look at it
>>> from the inside, then the cost of everything bought with dollars is
>>> skyrocketing. Either way, it's the same inflation.
>>
>> Uh, no. The current inflation rate of about 34% compares favorably
>> with the
> ^^^
> Isn't there supposed to be a decimal point in there somewhere?

Yeah. My bad. 3.4%.

Robatoy wrote:
> On May 26, 6:16 pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> *Fewer military deaths in six years of Afghanistan/Iraq war than in
>> 8 years of the previous administration's peace years.
>
> Excuse me?

The US has been fighting the War on Terror for over 5 years and has lost
just over half the soldiers in battle as the Clinton Administration was
losing during peacetime in 8 years.

In five years of the WOT, the US has lost about 3800 soldiers, from all
causes (hostile action, training, accidents, homicide, disease, suicide,
etc.), during wartime. In 8 years of the previous administration, the US
lost 7,500 active duty military personell.

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/004581.html

Robatoy wrote:
>
> My company sold and installed quite a few solid surface countertops in
> Michigan when the exhange was $1.55. I was getting full margins and
> the US customer had a built-in fabulous discount.
> I haven't done any serious business in Michigan for 2 years now.
> I do get a break buying stuff in Michigan for my business and personal
> use.

Michigan is an economic basket case. And there is a move afoot to raise
taxes even more.

Poor Michigan. Shame, really.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
>> That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...
>
> I'm not sure how that relates.
>
> The natural disaster of Katrina, turned the light of reality on
> blatant racism as well as complete government indifference and
> incompetence at all levels, especially federal; however, none of that
> relates to alternate energy pursuits, IMHO.

I don't see how you can accuse the federal government of incompetence. Oh
sure, mistakes were made, but there will always be mistakes when billions of
dollars worth of stuff and people have to move in a short time.

Better to look at what the federal government DID do properly - and by
"properly" I mean within the law and according to the requests of local and
state officials.

Remember, the feds can't do much of anything unless asked by local
functionaries. It's sad that the feds were hamstrung by the stunning
incompetence of the local folk. For example, there were enough school busses
to take a goodly portion of the people in the dome all the way to Houston
(one "stolen" bus made the trip).

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> HeyBub wrote:
>
>> I don't see how you can accuse the federal government of
>> incompetence.
>
> Let me spell it out for you: BUSH
>
> He has proven to be unqualified as well as arrogant, and has
> surrounded himself with like kind.
>
> The systematic dismantling of gov't seems to be their only objective
> and they are doing a pretty good job of it.
>
> The wealthy get wealthier, the poor get poorer, and the middle class
> gets screwed.
>
> Ain't life grand?
>
> Lew

And yet in your rant in spite of Bush's grave incompetence you failed to
provide a single fact.......Reality a bit hard for you? Rod

In article <[email protected]>, Lew
Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:

> Brian Henderson wrote:
>
> > There really is no way to have effective mass transit in Southern
> > California without tearing down the entire state and starting over.
> > It just wasn't designed that way. Most of the currently existing mass
> > transit we have runs nearly empty because it just doesn't fulfill the
> > needs of the majority of potential users.
>
> Seems there may be a change underway.
>
> Trying to use the mass transit system to get someplace in a hurry, is
> a lost cause at present; however, every time I ride the light rail, it
> is full, especially the Long Beach run.
>
> Other "commuter" runs are showing an increase in ridership.
>
> Personally, would like to see $10/gal gasoline.
>
> Suddenly, there would be a whole new way of looking at things.

In some places. Here in Canada, it would have a nasty economic impact
because of the huge distances we have to move goods, both imported and
for export. It would kill western Canadian farmers.

In article <[email protected]>,
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> On May 26, 2:29 pm, Dave Balderstone
> <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, Lew
> >
> >
> >
> > Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Brian Henderson wrote:
> >
> > > > There really is no way to have effective mass transit in Southern
> > > > California without tearing down the entire state and starting over.
> > > > It just wasn't designed that way. Most of the currently existing mass
> > > > transit we have runs nearly empty because it just doesn't fulfill the
> > > > needs of the majority of potential users.
> >
> > > Seems there may be a change underway.
> >
> > > Trying to use the mass transit system to get someplace in a hurry, is
> > > a lost cause at present; however, every time I ride the light rail, it
> > > is full, especially the Long Beach run.
> >
> > > Other "commuter" runs are showing an increase in ridership.
> >
> > > Personally, would like to see $10/gal gasoline.
> >
> > > Suddenly, there would be a whole new way of looking at things.
> >
> > In some places. Here in Canada, it would have a nasty economic impact
> > because of the huge distances we have to move goods, both imported and
> > for export. It would kill western Canadian farmers.
>
> Question would be, where would the yield of that huge increase go?
> Who knows, maybe we can start over and move stuff the efficient way
> again? Like trains?

That would require Parliament to do something. Fat chance.

> What's with all them damned trucks on the road?

And there's a shortage of something like 30,000 drivers in Canada...

>
> The farmers could simply say: "If you want this farking grain, come
> and get it, you asshats!!"
>
> But I'm afraid you're right, Dave... it would kill them first.
>
> On the imported goods front, maybe we'd get off our collective asses
> and start making our own plywood again?

That would be a good thing. There are a whole lot of mills that would
restart.

In article <[email protected]>, Lew
Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:

> Dave Balderstone wrote:
>
> > In some places. Here in Canada, it would have a nasty economic impact
> > because of the huge distances we have to move goods, both imported and
> > for export. It would kill western Canadian farmers.
>
> You know, I doubt that.
>
> What you are suggesting is that the way of life of the Canadian grain
> farmer would be put in peril, and they would just give up and quit farming.
>
> When the human animal's survival is attacked, they can be very
> resourceful and adaptable.
>
> My money would be on the farmers.

As an aside, I work for the largest agricultural newspaper in Canada. I
understand the resilience of the farmer, but I also understand the
market and financial pressures they're under here in the prairies.

I'm not suggesting they'd give up. I'm suggesting they'd be forced into
bankruptcy.

Fri, May 25, 2007, 10:11am (EDT-1) [email protected] (HerHusband) doth
lament:
<snip> Worst of all, I paid $40 a sheet for this stuff at Home Depot,
and then saw MUCH better quality lumber at Lowes (where I normally get
my plywood) for only $30 a sheet. <snip>

Going by your description, the lsst plywood I bought at Lowes,
cnstruction grade, for shop projects, was better then what you got, and
ran me about $13 a sheet - the good side actually was. I don't shop at
Home Depot, period.



JOAT
What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new
humiliations?
- Peter Egan

[email protected] wrote:

> I know it is a function
> of money/time on the rack/bottom line, etc., but I can't figure out
> why they QUIT carrying a better grade since it was selling. The sold
> the daylights out of that stuff.

It's known as "bean counter mentality".


If you want to quickly destroy a business, put a bean counter in charge.

The examples are numerous.

1) L Townsend at Chrysler
2) R Smith at GM

They are the first to come to mind, but there are others.

Lew

What most Americans don't know is that the US currency is in the toilet. I
run a Canadian company which has 99% of its income in US dollars. Our
revenue is up but when converted to Canadian dollars it becomes less than
years before. I used to get $1.60 Canadian for every one US dollar, now I
only get $1.08 per US dollar and the experts say that the two currencies
will be par by year end.

This means that whatever you bought a couple of years ago that was imported,
now it is going to cost you almost 50% more today because the other
currencies in the world have not dropped as much as the US dollar.

Home Depot, Wal-Mart and many others compensate by buying even cheaper crap
so that the price doesn't go up, that is why the plywood is now pure junk.


"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> You know, as a sidebar to this, Home Depot sold quality plywood a few
>> years ago. (5?- 7?) It was the same stuff I got at my hardwoods guy,
>> even the same stamps sometimes. It was just a about 20% less.
>
> You're right ... last time I got good Oak 3/4" ply from HD was around
> 2002.
> IIRC, it was around $42/sheet, which was a pretty good price at the time,
> void free, relatively thick veneer compared to the higher wood boutique
> prices, and much heavier than what they sell as plywood at any BORG today.
>
> I just got a quote from my hardwood dealer yesterday for 3/4"x4x8 A1 rift
> sawn red oak - $115.95/sheet; up $11/sheet since I bought the last load
> just
> about one year ago.
>
> Inflation? ... what inflation?
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 2/20/07
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
>
>

Ralph E Lindberg wrote:

> I travel to Canada almost every month, trust me, I've noticed. Just
> wish I'd bought $10K in Canadian years ago... The Euro is at an all-time
> high, the British pound is at a 26 year high, on and on
>

( I've seen threads go off topic/track - but this one's headed off
in some interesting directions - economics, public policy, trans-
-portation and land use policy. So let's head off onto foreign
policy.)

Ah - the Half Full view. The other way of seeing it is that the
US dollar is declining significantly, as is how much of the rest
of the world's opinion of the US in terms of our foreign policy.

We, the United States, are a relatively young country and are
still learning how to deal with problems. At the moment, we
happen to be being led by a child, and a not very bright one
at that. Not the best situation to be in when crisis arise
(see 911/Afgahnistan/Iraq/Iran/Katrina/Enron/Abrimoff/...)
and more on the horizon (global warming/impending energy
crisis/culture clash/social security/medical costs/...). We
will get over it in time. Please bear with us a bit longer.
Sorry about the inconvenience we're causing - we're working
on getting back on track.

charlie b

EXT wrote:

| What most Americans don't know is that the US currency is in the
| toilet. I run a Canadian company which has 99% of its income in US
| dollars. Our revenue is up but when converted to Canadian dollars
| it becomes less than years before. I used to get $1.60 Canadian for
| every one US dollar, now I only get $1.08 per US dollar and the
| experts say that the two currencies will be par by year end.

Actually, most Americans /do/ know it. If you look at it from the
outside, then the dollar is in the tank - and when you look at it from
the inside, then the cost of everything bought with dollars is
skyrocketing. Either way, it's the same inflation.

What most Americans don't seem to recognize is that it's all happening
in a completely predictable "cause and effect" sequence, and that the
current level of inflation is merely a gentle introduction...

| This means that whatever you bought a couple of years ago that was
| imported, now it is going to cost you almost 50% more today because
| the other currencies in the world have not dropped as much as the
| US dollar.

It's not just imported goods - the cost of doing business in the US is
being affected and the cost of domestic goods is on the same track as
imported goods. It's just a little further back on the train because a
lot of American businesses are dragging their feet on raising prices.

There's not much good anywhere in the picture. As the US dollar drops
relative to other currencies, Americans will necessarily cut back on
their purchases of imported goods - leaving exporters with excessive
inventory, excessive capacity, and excessive employment. Worse, or at
least as bad, obligations payable in US dollars will be paid in
devalued currency (which you're already experiencing).

| Home Depot, Wal-Mart and many others compensate by buying even
| cheaper crap so that the price doesn't go up, that is why the
| plywood is now pure junk.

That can only be carried so far. At some point the merchandise becomes
so crappy that no one wants to buy it, the prices are forced up anyway
to the point where the merchandise becomes unaffordable, and the
commercial structure needs to be rebuilt.

About then some damn political cowboy will come along and tell us:
"Hey! War is _good_ for business."

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

HeyBub wrote:
| Doug Miller wrote:
|| In article <[email protected]>, "HeyBub"
|| <[email protected]> wrote:
||| Morris Dovey wrote:
|||| Actually, most Americans /do/ know it. If you look at it from the
|||| outside, then the dollar is in the tank - and when you look at it
|||| from the inside, then the cost of everything bought with dollars
|||| is skyrocketing. Either way, it's the same inflation.
|||
||| Uh, no. The current inflation rate of about 34% compares favorably
||| with the
|| ^^^
|| Isn't there supposed to be a decimal point in there somewhere?
|
| Yeah. My bad. 3.4%.

You missed the point (I wasn't comparing inflation rates, rather
perspectives of people inside the US vs people outside the US)

I'm not interested in arguing with your statistics - what I'm
experiencing is nothing like 3.4% - but that may only reflect a
difference between the way the number is produced and my real world
spending.

[ The majority of my spending is for clear hardwood, plywood, glue,
solar glazing, stock aluminum extrusions, stainless steel screws,
carbide cutting tools, OTR shipping, and the usual gasoline,
electricity, phone/dsl, natural gas, rent, and groceries. ]

I wish /I/ were seeing your 3.4% - and (probably) so do my customers.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "EXT" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> What most Americans don't know is that the US currency is in the toilet.
>> I
>> run a Canadian company which has 99% of its income in US dollars. Our
>> revenue is up but when converted to Canadian dollars it becomes less than
>> years before. I used to get $1.60 Canadian for every one US dollar, now I
>> only get $1.08 per US dollar and the experts say that the two currencies
>> will be par by year end.
>
> Funny how our great Canadian dollar is worth so much, yet our mayor David
> Miller of Toronto, Canada's largest city is crying how Toronto is broke.
> He
> is and will be taxing everything in sight including stuff like putting
> a10%
> tax on all purchased beer and alcohol.
>
> American currency may or may not be in the toilet, but what good is a
> strong
> Canadian dollar when our government literally taxes us into the poor
> house,
> effectively taking away any advantage to the ordinary citizen?
>
A strong Canadian dollar is not good for the economy. They are saying it has
cost 250,000 jobs to date, with another 250,000 jobs if it goes par. The
city of Toronto has many problems with trying to favour many groups and not
doing any of it well. Hotels are not earning much profit with the scarcity
of tourists, so they are not paying so much on business tax. The city is way
undertaxed compared to the 905 area. I see every day people who used to
complain that their property taxes doubled during re-evaluation, so now they
are paying $2000.00 in property taxes instead of $1000.00, where houses in
the suburbs are paying $4000.00 for houses with the same evaluation. The
differences are still apparent.

Enough said, this is a thread about rising costs for wood products while
quality is going down in the US, not about Toronto's mismanagement of money.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
| Dave Balderstone wrote:
|
| > I'm not suggesting they'd give up. I'm suggesting they'd be
| forced into > bankruptcy.
|
| Not all will survive, that's life; however, most can, and $10/gal
| gasoline is on the horizon, but it won't happen over night.
|
| There is time, but we can't waste it.
|
| Time to start addressing the problem, IMHO.

Hmmm. "Addressing the problem" - does that mean 'talking it to death'
or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Robatoy wrote:
| On May 27, 10:39 pm, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote:
|
|| or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?
||
| But FIRST we do a feasibility study to see if the desired path
| warrants a steering committee in order to fund a research group in
| order to see if we can synchronise all the lobbies and focus groups
| to make discoveries to establish re-electabilty. After they write a
| proposal to investigate the ramifications due to financial and
| environmental impact of any and all proposals...when we get that all
| ironed out, it's time to move on to the next big step: we drum up
| support by printing leaflets which we will hand out at all the White
| Castle outlets. THEN we develop a plan. As long as it doesn't impact
| the Slippy-Bellied Snail population and/or the spotted owls. Oh..
| and we need to hire some lawyers.
|
| Is that what you mean, Morris?
|
| o¿o
|
| (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

Tongue in cheek or not, there's enough truth in that to be downright
discouraging.

'develop a plan and take action' ::= 'talk it to death'

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Lew Hodgett wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| Hmmm. "Addressing the problem" - does that mean 'talking it to
|| death' or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?
|
| Good question, why do you ask?

Ever the optimist, I keep hoping that "addressing the problem" will
mean more than just endlessly (re)specifying the problem.

Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack the
will to implement.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Lew Hodgett wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
|| that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack
|| the will to implement.
|
| Nobody wants to see their ox gored.
|
| As soon as people can see personal gain, it will happen.

That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

todd wrote:
| "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news:[email protected]...
|| Lew Hodgett wrote:
||| Morris Dovey wrote:
|||
|||| Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded
|||| me that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we
|||| lack the will to implement.
|||
||| Nobody wants to see their ox gored.
|||
||| As soon as people can see personal gain, it will happen.
||
|| That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...
|
| Would that be the "don't build a large city below sea level" lesson
| or another one?

All of them. New Orleans did not, of course, begin as a large city
when the French established a trading outpost near the mouth of the
Mississippi. I'm ignorant of the period in which New Orleans acquired
"large city" status.

Let's begin with that point in time when we first knew for certain
that the levees were inadequate to perform the function for which
they'd been constructed, and work our way forward from there. Perhaps
we will learn enough to do better when, for example, the "Big One"
hits the Los Angeles area.

Let's enumerate the lessons (and there are /so/ many) without
consideration of the political entities involved. The lessons to be
learned won't be made any more clear by allowing their examination to
devolve into finger pointing.

There are a lot of lessons (at least hundreds!) to be learned, and one
of them is that when major interests are in conflict, /someone's/ ox
is going to be gored, and wanting or not wanting that to happen is not
necessarily going to affect what happens to the ox.

Another is that as long as we see life as a zero sum game, relying on
stakeholders to prevent ox-gorings is only wishful thinking. Some
stakeholders delight in seeing others' oxes gored.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Lew Hodgett wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...
|
| I'm not sure how that relates.
|
| The natural disaster of Katrina, turned the light of reality on
| blatant racism as well as complete government indifference and
| incompetence at all levels, especially federal; however, none of
| that relates to alternate energy pursuits, IMHO.

Many people are delaying action in order to maximize a hoped-for
government payment (either an entitlement or a tax incentive), much as
many people lived in New Orleans staking their futures on hoped-for
government maintenance of the levee system.

The lesson: It would appear to be a mistake to make important
decisions based on expected behavior of government - regardless of
whether those expectations involve public safety or energy policy.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Just Wondering wrote:
| charlieb wrote:
||
|| We, the United States, are a relatively young country and are
|| still learning how to deal with problems. At the moment, we
|| happen to be being led by a child, and a not very bright one
|| at that.
|
| The President has relatively little influence on the national
| economy. Congress, Big Business, Bis Labor, and the Federal Reserve
| all have more to do with it.

As reflected in the decision to not open the Iraqi reconstruction to a
normal bidding process?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

HeyBub wrote:

| Remember, the feds can't do much of anything unless asked by local
| functionaries. It's sad that the feds were hamstrung by the stunning
| incompetence of the local folk. For example, there were enough
| school busses to take a goodly portion of the people in the dome
| all the way to Houston (one "stolen" bus made the trip).

Lesson: Do not depend on competence of government.
Be prepared.

I'm an amateur radio operator. It's not just an interesting hobby -
there are associated responsibilities: provide communications in
emergency situations; provide communications equipment, on demand, to
the federal government; cease operations instantly when radio silence
is ordered, etc.

I inquired as to the need for communications volunteers in NO and was
told to stay away - that volunteers would just get in the way. I've
heard that other people volunteered to take boats, food, and just
about everything else you can imagine - and that they were told the
same thing.

Lesson: If volunteers are needed, just go. The command and control
crap can all be sorted out when the immediate needs have
been met. When lives are at stake, it's not about "who's in
charge."

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Brian Henderson wrote:

> There really is no way to have effective mass transit in Southern
> California without tearing down the entire state and starting over.
> It just wasn't designed that way. Most of the currently existing mass
> transit we have runs nearly empty because it just doesn't fulfill the
> needs of the majority of potential users.

Seems there may be a change underway.

Trying to use the mass transit system to get someplace in a hurry, is
a lost cause at present; however, every time I ride the light rail, it
is full, especially the Long Beach run.

Other "commuter" runs are showing an increase in ridership.

Personally, would like to see $10/gal gasoline.

Suddenly, there would be a whole new way of looking at things.

Lew

"HerHusband" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike,
>
> > THD has a 30 day satisfaction return policy on just about everything.
> > You'd be surprised at what they will allow to be returned.
>
> I guess I figured wood was one of those "non-returnable" items. Like
buying
> anything electrical at an autoparts store. Especially after I have cut it.

As we all would - based on what makes common sense. I found it quite
surprising when I discovered that one could buy something like piece of
plywood, and return it once we cut it up, but you sure can.

>
> > I have a problem with all of the posts here about lumber that guys go
> > out and buy (... and select from the pile themselves), and then post
> > complaints about the inferior quality of such things as should have
> > been obvious when they were buying it.
>
> In my case, it's not like I have many options. Home Depot or Lowes are
> about it for cabinet plywood. There used to be a hardwood supplier in
town,
> but they closed down a few years ago. Some of the lumber yards "might"
have
> cabinet ply, but it's not typically out where you can see it. You usually
> have to pay first, and hope there's something good when you drive back to
> pick it up.
>
> So, I guess I figured plywood is plywood, and would be about the same
> everywhere. Like I said, live and learn...
>
> > Plys are easy to see, right on the rack. Fills are easy to see.
> > Shame on you for not taking the time to look it over better
>
> In all fairness, I "did" examine the sheets in the store. I dug through
> several sheets to find the best three in the stack. But even the "best"
had
> problems. I also didn't notice any real voids in the ply's on the edge.
> Maybe one or two small ones, but I had no idea the whole sheet was filled
> with them.
>
> As for the thin veneer, it's not visible to the naked eye. What I
> "thought" was the veneer layer on each side was actually just another core
> ply. Even after cutting and intensely examining a small piece, I can't see
> the veneer layer. It's that thin...
>
> I also had no way of knowing the wood would splinter so badly when
> crosscut, until I cut into it.

Hey Anthony - I might have been harsher than I should have been in my reply
to your post. I'm sorry for that. It's just that we see posts like yours
almost weekly here, and at a point you begin to think that no-one should be
surprised by what they get in a piece of plywood at THD at this point.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:09:47 GMT, Han <[email protected]> wrote:

> Of course, gasoline here in the US is still
>very cheap compared to Europe - about Euro 1.42 per liter in Wageningen,
>Netherlands. If I calculate correctly, that comes to ~US$7.30 per gallon,
>or more than twice the price in North Jersey.

Don't most european countries subsidize mass transit (railroads) with
gas taxes? I remember hearing this in Switzerland, but was under
the impression many European countries do the same.

Actually, not a bad idea, at least for the northeast, southeast,
Chicagoland, and So Cal. US.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> In my quest to find a place to work and grow into, an option to buy a
> strip-mall with light industrial zoning resulted in having a few
> meetings with a few 'doers'. The place was simply too big for just
> lill' ol' me and I wanted to offset my financial commitments.

Where was this "almost to be" working environment? Would be bureaucrats
aside, it would brighten my day at even the possibility of something like
that within travelling distance from where I live.

> year later, that building is still sitting there... and farktard is
> wringing his hands looking for somebody who wants to play his game.

<[email protected]> wrote in message

> You know, as a sidebar to this, Home Depot sold quality plywood a few
> years ago. (5?- 7?) It was the same stuff I got at my hardwoods guy,
> even the same stamps sometimes. It was just a about 20% less.

You're right ... last time I got good Oak 3/4" ply from HD was around 2002.
IIRC, it was around $42/sheet, which was a pretty good price at the time,
void free, relatively thick veneer compared to the higher wood boutique
prices, and much heavier than what they sell as plywood at any BORG today.

I just got a quote from my hardwood dealer yesterday for 3/4"x4x8 A1 rift
sawn red oak - $115.95/sheet; up $11/sheet since I bought the last load just
about one year ago.

Inflation? ... what inflation?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Funny - I usually have better luck with Home Depot for plywood then I do
with Lowes.
When I want decent plywood I go to my local hardwoods store and spend a lot
of time just loooking before picking.
Lowes and Home Depot are not the places to buy your quality plywood -- good
sources for shop stuff but not what I would put in my family room.

Later and best of luck.
Thom

"HerHusband" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There's no point to this message, other than I need to vent somewhere...
> :)
>
> I'm building a new entertainment center and just bought three sheets of
> 3/4" birch plywood and one sheet of 1/2" birch plywood from my local Home
> Depot. This has to be some of the worst plywood I have ever purchased!
>
> I didn't notice it till I got home and unloaded, but the faces of the
> sheet had numerous blemishes and patches (both sides). I should have
> looked it over better at the store, BEFORE I started cutting. :)
> Thankfully, I managed to cut around the major blemishes, or hide them in
> places where they can't be seen. Unfortunately, this left me a little
> short, so now I need to pick up a quarter sheet to build the last two
> shelves.
>
> The plywood is also riddled with numerous voids. I don't think I have
> made a cut yet that hasn't had pieces of the core falling out.
>
> Even the grain pattern of the sheets is less than attractive. I'm not
> sure what kind of birch trees they got the wood from, but this stuff is
> ugly! :)
>
> Perhaps worst of all, the surface veneers are extremely thin and fragile.
> It appears to be thinner than a sheet of paper. I bought brand new saw
> blades for making this project, and the chipout is absolutely horrible. I
> also sanded a couple of pieces yesterday, and can sand through the veneer
> in less than 20 seconds with 100 grit paper. Now my project is almost
> finished, and I'm almost scared to sand it for fear of sanding through
> the veneer and exposing the core.
>
> Worst of all, I paid $40 a sheet for this stuff at Home Depot, and then
> saw MUCH better quality lumber at Lowes (where I normally get my plywood)
> for only $30 a sheet.
>
> The plywood sucks, but a lot of the fault obviously lies with me. I made
> the mistake of shopping on a weekend, when the rest of the DIY crowd was
> crowding into the store. I thought the convenience of having my wife and
> daughter there to help load the cart would be nice. But, in my attempt to
> get in and out of the store, I didn't inspect the sheets closely enough.
>
> Anyway, I'm almost finished with my entertainment center and am happy
> with the way it is turning out. Despite the poor quality lumber, I have
> managed to hide the worst blemishes. If I can pull off sanding the
> project next week without destroying it, there's still a chance it might
> turn out OK.
>
> Live and learn...
>
> Anthony

Say What? wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:

>> I buy solid wood and hardwoodplywoods at www.creativewoodworksusa.com
>> Birch is only $1.95 per foot and plywoods are around $35.They will
>> ship and it isn't as expensive as I thought it would be for shipping.
>>
>
> Your "testimonial" might have more credibility had you told us you were
> the same Mike Williams who OWNS Creative Woodworks and that rather than
> buying solid and plywood FROM them you buy it FOR the business and sell it.
>

At least now I know a place NOT to buy from :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Don't be too smug until you've sawed it. I bought about 20 sheets of
1/2" ---haha, 7/16" from Menards and at least half the sheets had SEVERE
delamination INSIDE where you couldn't see it without sawing!!!

Their A7 (or is it A9?) siding wasn't any better.

When I complained, they said "that's the way it is", but did give me
part of the money back. Of course that doesn't make up for the 50 mile
round trips and the extra labor. I thought they'd at least tell me
that they'd get back to the mfr and see that it didn't happen again.

Pete Stanaitis
----------------------------------------------------

Dave wrote:

> "HerHusband" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>There's no point to this message, other than I need to vent somewhere...
>>:)
>>
>>I'm building a new entertainment center and just bought three sheets of
>>3/4" birch plywood and one sheet of 1/2" birch plywood from my local Home
>>Depot. This has to be some of the worst plywood I have ever purchased!
>>
>>I didn't notice it till I got home and unloaded, but the faces of the
>>sheet had numerous blemishes and patches (both sides). I should have
>>looked it over better at the store, BEFORE I started cutting. :)
>>Thankfully, I managed to cut around the major blemishes, or hide them in
>>places where they can't be seen. Unfortunately, this left me a little
>>short, so now I need to pick up a quarter sheet to build the last two
>>shelves.
>>
>>The plywood is also riddled with numerous voids. I don't think I have
>>made a cut yet that hasn't had pieces of the core falling out.
>>
>
>
> Thanks for posting. Now I know where not to buy plywood. I bought some from
> Menards. I had to go through the stack before I found 4 acceptable sheets.
>
>
>
>>Even the grain pattern of the sheets is less than attractive. I'm not
>>sure what kind of birch trees they got the wood from, but this stuff is
>>ugly! :)
>>
>>Perhaps worst of all, the surface veneers are extremely thin and fragile.
>>It appears to be thinner than a sheet of paper. I bought brand new saw
>>blades for making this project, and the chipout is absolutely horrible. I
>>also sanded a couple of pieces yesterday, and can sand through the veneer
>>in less than 20 seconds with 100 grit paper. Now my project is almost
>>finished, and I'm almost scared to sand it for fear of sanding through
>>the veneer and exposing the core.
>>
>>Worst of all, I paid $40 a sheet for this stuff at Home Depot, and then
>>saw MUCH better quality lumber at Lowes (where I normally get my plywood)
>>for only $30 a sheet.
>>
>>The plywood sucks, but a lot of the fault obviously lies with me. I made
>>the mistake of shopping on a weekend, when the rest of the DIY crowd was
>>crowding into the store. I thought the convenience of having my wife and
>>daughter there to help load the cart would be nice. But, in my attempt to
>>get in and out of the store, I didn't inspect the sheets closely enough.
>>
>>Anyway, I'm almost finished with my entertainment center and am happy
>>with the way it is turning out. Despite the poor quality lumber, I have
>>managed to hide the worst blemishes. If I can pull off sanding the
>>project next week without destroying it, there's still a chance it might
>>turn out OK.
>>
>>Live and learn...
>>
>>Anthony
>
>
>

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message

> Other "commuter" runs are showing an increase in ridership.

Here in Houston we are burdened with these extra long, foul smelling, smoke
spewing, articulated buses that'll hold around 100, half full.

In 20 years I don't think I've ever seen one with more than 6 passengers,
including the driver.

Then again, it's a matter of priorities around here.

Neither Metro, nor the Houston Independent School District are in the
business of transportation or education, as you expect, but instead, in the
real estate business ... along with the overriding business of insuring that
their employee and management benefits far exceed what the taxpayer, who
pays for same, can afford for his/her family.

First things, first, after all.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:

>
> Tell me about it ... even the trades are putting "fuel cost" clauses in
> their bids the past two months.

"SurCharge" riders are nothing new.

Here in SoCal, been getting fuel surcharges on resin and glass
deliveries the last 3-4 years. Usually $10/delivery.

Still remember when the Hunt brothers tried to corner the silver market.

Almost everything I sold that had silver contacts, carried a silver
surcharge until things settled out.

Of course, back in the days of rampant inflation, "Price in effect at
time of shipment" was popular.

There was no such thing as a quote good for 30 days.

Lew

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On May 25, 12:10 pm, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
< big snip >

Does anyone with knowledge know the current status of the China plywood
flap? The last I heard was that the US was going to file a complaint
against China for selling the plywood that is marked as meeting standards
that it obviously doesn't meet.

Dave Balderstone wrote:

> In some places. Here in Canada, it would have a nasty economic impact
> because of the huge distances we have to move goods, both imported and
> for export. It would kill western Canadian farmers.

You know, I doubt that.

What you are suggesting is that the way of life of the Canadian grain
farmer would be put in peril, and they would just give up and quit farming.

When the human animal's survival is attacked, they can be very
resourceful and adaptable.

My money would be on the farmers.

Lew

[email protected] wrote:
> On May 25, 1:49 pm, HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> All the more reason to use solid wood instead of plywood.
>> It's hard to beat the cost and stability of plywood, and solid wood has
>> it's own share of issues. Warping, cupping, splitting, etc. I did buy a lot
>> of solid wood for trim, drawer fronts, etc. and it's not picture perfect
>> either.
>>
>> Of course, then there's the issue of gluing up panels and the labor (and
>> goofs) involved with that.
>>
>> Anthony
>
> I buy solid wood and hardwoodplywoods at www.creativewoodworksusa.com
> Birch is only $1.95 per foot and plywoods are around $35.They will
> ship and it isn't as expensive as I thought it would be for shipping.
>

Your "testimonial" might have more credibility had you told us you were
the same Mike Williams who OWNS Creative Woodworks and that rather than
buying solid and plywood FROM them you buy it FOR the business and sell it.

Your posts aren't exactly truthful now, are they? They are, IMNSHO,
rather tacky.

BTW, fire your web designer (or hire one), for a commercial
establishment such as yours the site sucks!

Morris Dovey wrote:

>
> Hmmm. "Addressing the problem" - does that mean 'talking it to death'
> or does it mean 'develop a plan and take action'?


Good question, why do you ask?

Lew

Dave Balderstone wrote:

> As an aside, I work for the largest agricultural newspaper in Canada. I
> understand the resilience of the farmer, but I also understand the
> market and financial pressures they're under here in the prairies.
>
> I'm not suggesting they'd give up. I'm suggesting they'd be forced into
> bankruptcy.


Not all will survive, that's life; however, most can, and $10/gal
gasoline is on the horizon, but it won't happen over night.

There is time, but we can't waste it.

Time to start addressing the problem, IMHO.

As the cartoonist Walt Kelly voiced thru his Pogo comic strip, "We have
met the enemy, and it is us."

Lew

Morris Dovey wrote:

> Robatoy summarized the solution process fairly well and reminded me
> that it's not that we lack practical solutions, it's that we lack the
> will to implement.

Nobody wants to see their ox gored.

As soon as people can see personal gain, it will happen.

Lew

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Let's begin with that point in time when we first knew for certain
> that the levees were inadequate to perform the function for which
> they'd been constructed, and work our way forward from there. Perhaps
> we will learn enough to do better when, for example, the "Big One"
> hits the Los Angeles area.
>
> Let's enumerate the lessons (and there are /so/ many) without
> consideration of the political entities involved. The lessons to be
> learned won't be made any more clear by allowing their examination to
> devolve into finger pointing.

Of course it was politics and people that got them there. Engineers told
'em over and over what fools they were. Not that N.O. is unique, of
course. Most of the Yellow river and a couple of others in China are
"elevated" too.

What we need is a good dictator to get the public transportation running on
time and get those people out of the way of the river (and the woods, and
the owls and the wolves...) so the greater good is served. Where's Joe when
we need 'im?

HerHusband wrote:

> There's no point to this message, other than I need to vent
somewhere...
> :)
>
> I'm building a new entertainment center and just bought three
sheets of
> 3/4" birch plywood and one sheet of 1/2" birch plywood from my
local Home
> Depot.
<snip>

Two (2) mistakes:

1) Walking thru the doors of Home Depot.
2) Thinking they even know what Birch cabinet plywood is, much less
sell it.

Plywood distributors exist for a reason.

Lew

HeyBub wrote:

> I don't see how you can accuse the federal government of incompetence.

Let me spell it out for you: BUSH

He has proven to be unqualified as well as arrogant, and has surrounded
himself with like kind.

The systematic dismantling of gov't seems to be their only objective and
they are doing a pretty good job of it.

The wealthy get wealthier, the poor get poorer, and the middle class
gets screwed.

Ain't life grand?

Lew

Morris Dovey wrote:

> That doesn't bode well. Consider the lessons of Katrina...

I'm not sure how that relates.

The natural disaster of Katrina, turned the light of reality on blatant
racism as well as complete government indifference and incompetence at
all levels, especially federal; however, none of that relates to
alternate energy pursuits, IMHO.

Lew

[email protected] wrote:

> I fear that if I go to my hardwood supplier though, his $60 a sheet
> birch won't be that much better.


That rather depends upon the grade he is selling. Each face of
plywood is graded just as are other wood materials and you get what
you pay for. All plywood face veneers are skimpy now, have been for a
long time. The days of 1/24 are long gone, welcome 1/42 and skinnier.

Another consideration is how the face veneer has been cut...most
economical method and therefore the most common (nearly universay at
DIY stores) is rotary. Generally unatractive. There are also flat
cut and quartered, book or slip matched in either.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Tell me about it ... even the trades are putting "fuel cost" clauses in
> their bids the past two months.


I started noticing fuel Surcharges when fuel prices hit the $1.50 mark 45 or
so years ago. USP and Orkin started adding it to the bills.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> Personally, would like to see $10/gal gasoline.
>
> Suddenly, there would be a whole new way of looking at things.
>
Yeah, suddenly we'd see millions of middle class families become
poverty-stricken. Not to mention double digit inflation.

charlieb wrote:
>
> We, the United States, are a relatively young country and are
> still learning how to deal with problems. At the moment, we
> happen to be being led by a child, and a not very bright one
> at that.

The President has relatively little influence on the national economy.
Congress, Big Business, Bis Labor, and the Federal Reserve all have more
to do with it.

In article <[email protected]>, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Morris Dovey wrote:
>> Actually, most Americans /do/ know it. If you look at it from the
>> outside, then the dollar is in the tank - and when you look at it from
>> the inside, then the cost of everything bought with dollars is
>> skyrocketing. Either way, it's the same inflation.
>
>Uh, no. The current inflation rate of about 34% compares favorably with the
^^^
Isn't there supposed to be a decimal point in there somewhere?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

If you can't think of ways around that, you're not thinking very hard.

"Rod & Betty Jo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> How so? You do know the individual limit on campaign contribution is just
a
> thousand or two, corporations can't officially buy their way in....

Leon,

>> I'm building a new entertainment center and just bought three sheets
>> of 3/4" birch plywood and one sheet of 1/2" birch plywood from my
>> local Home Depot. This has to be some of the worst plywood I have
>> ever purchased!

> Learning to look at what you are buying is a good practice.

Yeah, I usually inspect the lumber I buy with much greater detail, but I
guess I was busy looking at my lady and talking with her instead. :)

> BUT when the plywood becomes delaminated or pieces start falling out I
> Take It Back. Sure it is cut but the piece is defective, how would
> you know if you had not cut it?

Good point, but it's all hindsight now. Assuming I don't destroy the
project when I start sanding, it will all work out in the end.

Anthony

> All the more reason to use solid wood instead of plywood.

It's hard to beat the cost and stability of plywood, and solid wood has
it's own share of issues. Warping, cupping, splitting, etc. I did buy a lot
of solid wood for trim, drawer fronts, etc. and it's not picture perfect
either.

Of course, then there's the issue of gluing up panels and the labor (and
goofs) involved with that.

Anthony

> I have never seen face veneer that thin.
> I don't think you could spray it on any thinner.

Yep, sounds like the same stuff! :)

> You really need to be extra careful when sanding.
> I sanded right through that stuff

That's the part I'm worried about. It shouldn't take much sanding on the
large flat areas, it's near the edges where the trim meets the plywood that
I'm most concerned. That and anywhere I need to fill a nail hole or
something.

> Luckily, the face of the pieces weren't all that interesting,
> so with some finish on the top it didn't matter.

The majority of my entertainment center will usually have "stuff" on it,
the top is higher than most people will see, and most of the front is solid
wood. So, maybe there's hope... :)

> I used to buy the "China ply" at HD and it was a decent product.

I've purchased birch ply at HD and Lowes for years and never had a problem.
I guess that's why I didn't give it much thought when I bought it. Now I
know better.

> the pink glue they used to press the plies
> together stunk like something was burning.

Interesting, I noticed that smell when I was making some cuts, but didn't
see any signs of burning on the wood.

Anthony

Robert,

> Nothing burned, it just smelled like it. That was the confusing
> part. I am sure the Chinaply is bound by something made from boiled
> animals and food remnants.

Because of the blemishes in my full sheets, I had to run down and pick up
another 1/4 sheet of 3/4" plywood today. I didn't want to spring for a
full sheet, and Lowes was out of the precut panels, so it was back to Home
Depot.

I was a lot more careful this time, making sure there were no blemishes on
either surface, and confidently carried my panel up and paid for it.

Unfortunately, when I got home I realized the grain didn't quite look
right. Now granted, I'm not all that familiar with wood species, but this
looks more like oak than birch. I double-checked the label, it says birch,
but it sure doesn't look like the usual stuff.

Of course, once again, I didn't catch on until I had cut the panel down to
the size of my shelves. Geez, I can't win... I got so busy looking at the
"quality" of the wood, I completely forgot to even check if it was the
right "type" of wood. Maybe I should just go sit down for a while. :)

Anyway, when I was cutting this panel, it smelled like... Well.... Urine.
Kind of disgusting actually.

Anthony