Electrical help: 20 amp vs 30 amp

Thanks for the help everyone.

Since I already have the double 30 amp breaker
and the 10 g wire with hot,hot,ground, I am
going to use it as soon as I get to the Borg to
get the proper outlet and plug.

Nothing like an electrical question to
stimulate discussion - especially in a woodworking
group!

Lou

In article <070120051716319758%[email protected]>, loutent
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
> several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
> information I believe. Now I actually have something to
> work with!
>
> I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
> (almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
> neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
> power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
> is less than 20 years old (just for reference).
>
> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
> out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
> harm the magnetic switch or anything else?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Lou

I'd just like to thank everyone again. The saw now
has power.

I left the 30 amp breaker. Bought a single outlet
rated 20 amps/240 v and a matching plug. It
is dedicated to the saw (nothing else can/will be
plugged into it).

It's a bitch working with that 10 g wire though.

The 1023 SL is just humming right along! I haven't
put a blade in it yet - still fiddling with the wings &
fence. I want to try to get everything as perfect as I can
from the get-go.


Lou

"loutent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:070120051716319758%[email protected]...
>I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
> several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
> information I believe. Now I actually have something to
> work with!
>
> I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
> (almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
> neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
> power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
> is less than 20 years old (just for reference).
>
> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
> out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
> harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Use the 30 amp. Also, the power would be hot, hot, ground and NOT neutral,
hot, ground.
SH - The "used to wire houses" woodworker

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
>> describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
>> wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
>> used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
>> a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
>> breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
>> 240V circuit (North America).
>
> With that in mind, and I agree about ground, hot, hot on a 3 wire set up.
> Many newer homes with 220 have 4 wires, 1 being ground. What do you call
> the other 3?

Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground
I have the 4 wire running to my table saw. Of which I branched off and
created a duplex 110 recepticle where the neutral was needed.
SH

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:01:46 -0800, "Slowhand" <I'm@work> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
>>>> describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
>>>> wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
>>>> used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
>>>> a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
>>>> breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
>>>> 240V circuit (North America).
>>>
>>> With that in mind, and I agree about ground, hot, hot on a 3 wire set
>>> up.
>>> Many newer homes with 220 have 4 wires, 1 being ground. What do you
>>> call
>>> the other 3?
>>
>>Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground
>>I have the 4 wire running to my table saw. Of which I branched off and
>>created a duplex 110 recepticle where the neutral was needed.
>
> All that is true, and I'm sure as an old sparky you remember when a
> 240V circuit was just the two hots; the ground wire is a relatively
> new (40 or 50 years?) requirement.

Hey, I'm not old. (38). ;-)
As long as I've been sparkin (wired my first house in 1992), it's been two
hots and a ground.

I have a buddy who's a electrical contractor who pretty much taught me
enough to be dangerous. I'm still not sure why electricity works the way it
does. I just do what I've been taught.
SH

"loutent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:070120051716319758%[email protected]...
> I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
> several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
> information I believe. Now I actually have something to
> work with!
>
> I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
> (almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
> neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
> power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
> is less than 20 years old (just for reference).
>
> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
> out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
> harm the magnetic switch or anything else?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Lou

Go ahead and use the circuit. The circuit breaker is there to protect your
wires. Your saw probably has an overload cutout on the motor.

Plugging your saw into a bigger circuit is like plugging a night light into
a circuit that could power a toaster. No problem.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > Perhaps. Most of the time it is one or the other but both together is
still
> > about 12 amp under the circuit capacity IIRC.
>
> Don't think that's the issue...I think (US anyway) code only allows a
> single outlet on a dedicated circuit for the dryer...
>
> Note I'm not saying it's an unsafe combination, just pointing out what
> might be an issue when (and, of course, if) you were to sell or other
> reason to need to ensure compliance...

Technically I think Duane is correct here. The preferred way would be to
have the circuit feed a sub-panel and have two circuits branch off from
there. Keep this in mind if you are going to have your electrical
inspected.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"Roy Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You do need to make sure you've got the voltage right. Many motors can
> be configured to run on either 110 or 220 by moving a jumper or
> connecting to different terminals, but make sure you got it right. A
> mixup in either direction won't be good.

If it can be configured to run on either, run it on the 220.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eRTDd.17273$8l.12748@pd7tw1no...
> A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
> principle that the system should run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
> whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
> wiring on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of
> current. In the owner's manual they will say that they want a 20 amp
> circuit, not a 30 amp circuit. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system
> to internally trip with excess current. But if you blow the motor and
Grizz
> find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find
cause
> to blame you for some of that problem. Changing the breaker is a
one-minute
> job. Cheap insurance.
>
> Dave

I think you are thinking that the circuit breaker protects the item powered
by the circuit. This is not the case. The breaker or fuse protects the
wire from being overloaded, not the device. Quite common to plug a 60 watt
lamp into a 20 amp circuit. If the lamp developed a short to ground it
would hit 20 amps in a big hurry.

On a saw, if you were trying to cut through some nasty gnarly sappy wood
with a dull blade mounted backwards the thermal cutout would pop to protect
the windings on the motor long before it would pop the breaker.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:16:31 -0500, loutent <[email protected]> wrote:

>I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
>several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
>information I believe. Now I actually have something to
>work with!
>
>I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
>(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
>neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
>power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
>is less than 20 years old (just for reference).
>
>Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
>out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
>harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Roger's analogy is right. You don't sweat running your electric shaver
on that 20A bathroom breaker, do you?

The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
240V circuit (North America).


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:01:46 -0800, "Slowhand" <I'm@work> wrote:

>
>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
>>> describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
>>> wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
>>> used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
>>> a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
>>> breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
>>> 240V circuit (North America).
>>
>> With that in mind, and I agree about ground, hot, hot on a 3 wire set up.
>> Many newer homes with 220 have 4 wires, 1 being ground. What do you call
>> the other 3?
>
>Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground
>I have the 4 wire running to my table saw. Of which I branched off and
>created a duplex 110 recepticle where the neutral was needed.

All that is true, and I'm sure as an old sparky you remember when a
240V circuit was just the two hots; the ground wire is a relatively
new (40 or 50 years?) requirement.

In any event, I'm also sure you will agree that in a 240V circuit that
will supply only a motor or a heater, there won't be any neutral
because there is no neutral in a 240V circuit.

Now I am fully aware that dryer circuits are now required to be four
wire, that one may no longer use the ground for the neutral path
needed for the 120V parts of a dryer circuit which the NEC permitted
as a special use. But that's an exception. I think that may also be an
exception in range circuits, but for water heaters, table saws,
planers, jointers, dust collectors, ACs, etc., all that's required is
three (and electrically, all that's needed is two), and neutral isn't
one of them.

Your example of the 120V receptacle is simply a variation of a multi
wire circuit which looks just like a 240V circuit everywhere along the
circuit except at the loads. But a neutral IS needed in a multiwire
circuit. It isn't in a 240V circuit excepting the dryer/range
applications.



- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Do yourself a favor. Ask a qualified electrician. The advice you get here
will be good/bad/bullshit. Do you know how to tell which one is which? If
you did, you wouldn't have to ask. Ask the professional, it's worth it.

"loutent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:070120051716319758%[email protected]...
> I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
> several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
> information I believe. Now I actually have something to
> work with!
>
> I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
> (almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
> neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
> power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
> is less than 20 years old (just for reference).
>
> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
> out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
> harm the magnetic switch or anything else?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Lou

Leon wrote:
>
...
> ...I have my TS sharing a 50 amp circuit with a clothes dryer.

Don't think that's code unless you're using the dryer outlet or the saw,
not both?

Leon wrote:
>
> "Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Leon wrote:
> >>
> > ...
> >> ...I have my TS sharing a 50 amp circuit with a clothes dryer.
> >
> > Don't think that's code unless you're using the dryer outlet or the saw,
> > not both?
>
> Perhaps. Most of the time it is one or the other but both together is still
> about 12 amp under the circuit capacity IIRC.

Don't think that's the issue...I think (US anyway) code only allows a
single outlet on a dedicated circuit for the dryer...

Note I'm not saying it's an unsafe combination, just pointing out what
might be an issue when (and, of course, if) you were to sell or other
reason to need to ensure compliance...

Leon wrote:
>
> "Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Don't think that's the issue...I think (US anyway) code only allows a
> > single outlet on a dedicated circuit for the dryer...
> >
> > Note I'm not saying it's an unsafe combination, just pointing out what
> > might be an issue when (and, of course, if) you were to sell or other
> > reason to need to ensure compliance...
>
> I see. I feared that when I install the extra outlet so it is mounted out
> side the wall and easily taken apart in the event I ever move. I have been
> gonna move since 1986. I'm still here LOL.

Of course, the other outlet needs to be wired to the same ampacity of
the breaker to protect that wiring as well as the original...otherwise,
one would have an unsafe condition in that section of the circuit. I
was agreeing w/ the load of the saw as not being an excessive load w/
the dryer for short periods, especially since one has to be there to
operate it...

Dave wrote:
>
...A bunch of stuff...

Dave, you're way off here. Breakers are sized for the ampacity of the
circuit wiring. As long as the <total> load on the circuit is within
the rating, it's just fine and will do it's job as designed. There's no
protection for the device itself (in this case the saw) implied by the
breaker, simply the protection from overcurrent so that the household
wiring does not overheat.

Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
...
> >So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...

The word you were looking for is moot. It's too bad you chose to not be
mute.

Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> Duane Bozarth <[email protected]> writes:
> >Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>
> >...
> >> >So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...
> >
> >The word you were looking for is moot. It's too bad you chose to not be
> >mute.
>
> Duane,
>
> Please be more careful with your attributions. I did
> not write the statement you have attributed to me.
>
> scott

Sorry, you're correct Scott, my bad...inadvertent, for sure.

Lou said:
> I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground, neutral, hot) coming from a 30
> amp (unused) breaker
> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
> out the 30 breaker for a 20?

Lou, This sounds like a 110v Circuit. You need 220V for that saw. Change
the single pole (assumed) 30A 110V breaker with a dual pole breaker (20A -
220V).

Change or tag/lable the white wire as your second leg hot and you're good to
go.

Dave

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Whats the last water heater you saw connected to a 30a 120v line?
> It has to be 240v; he just thought the 2nd hot was a neutral.
> (However, it does suggest he shouldn't be doing any of this himself.)


Actually I saw one 5 years ago on a small 10 gallon tank.

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:06:32 GMT, "neal.don" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>just remember watts / volts = amps so a 600 watts runing 240 volts = 2.5
>amps and so on. you dont need a neutral but I would run a case ground.

You also should not post in electrical threads. The amount of current
draw in a circuit has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether a circuit
"needs" a neurtral or not.

Neutrals are a part of a 120V circuit. They are not an electrically
necessary part of a 240V circuit.

A "case ground", as you and no one else would put it, has been a
requirement for a long time, but as a safety item; it is not
electrically necessary.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 GMT, "Dave"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
>principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
>whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
>wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
>amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
>higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with
>excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
>automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you
>started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
>Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
>want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
>circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow
>the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires,
>they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a
>one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to
>the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you
>wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
> Cheap insurance.

As I said before:

Please. You should refrain from offering electrical advice. I'm sorry
if that hurts your feelings, but your reply does not reflect the
slightest bit of reality with regard to electrical theory,
engineering, or legal requirements.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"loutent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:070120051716319758%[email protected]...

> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
> out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
> harm the magnetic switch or anything else?

Grizzly is probably referring to a minimum vs. an exact recommendation.
Use it. I have my TS sharing a 50 amp circuit with a clothes dryer.
Like Roger has indicated, the 20 amp breaker is not to protect you saw.

Kevin Matthews <[email protected]> writes:
>The Grizzly saw hookup originally asked about is a 3 wire hookup to
>the electrical switch. Hot-Hot-Neutral. If the wire has a white
>jacket on it, it is a neutral. Ground wires are bare.
>
>Beyond that, if you open up your main service panel to your house,
>there SHOULD be a little green screw run through one edge of the
>NEUTRAL bar that connects to the back of the service panel, which in
>turn is connected to the GROUND bar in the service panel. That said
>in the main service panel there is a completed circuit between neutral
>and ground in a 4 wire hookup. In sub-panels, the "green screw" is
>removed and the 4 wires (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are run separately to
>the main service panel. It's just a formality done so that an

Just a formality? Like Dave, above, you should not be giving
electrical advice.

>electrician can tell it is a sub panel, since back at the main panel
>the ground and neutral are combined...see above. This is according to
>current NEC code.

While you may have actually looked at the code, you _clearly_
didn't understand it.

>
>So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...they connect
>together back at the panel. Therefore, if it's got a white jacket,
>call it neutral, if it's bare, call it a ground.

You couldn't be more wrong.

scott

Duane Bozarth <[email protected]> writes:
>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>...
>> >So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...
>
>The word you were looking for is moot. It's too bad you chose to not be
>mute.

Duane,

Please be more careful with your attributions. I did
not write the statement you have attributed to me.

scott

"Slowhand" <I'm@work> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground
> I have the 4 wire running to my table saw. Of which I branched off and
> created a duplex 110 recepticle where the neutral was needed.
> SH


That's what I was thinking.

DJ Delorie wrote:

> If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician.

Could probably find one of my students.

> Using the word "ground" to describe the center tap of a transformer is
> misleading. It is the neutral tap of a multi-tap transformer. It is
> grounded at some point, but it is not ground, nor is it a "return".

Go back and reread the post. After that go back and enroll again in
EE101, the power option.

Lew

just remember watts / volts = amps so a 600 watts runing 240 volts = 2.5
amps and so on. you dont need a neutral but I would run a case ground.
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:46:07 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> What I'm trying to say (and apparently unsuccesfully) is that
>>> *electrically* there is no neutral or need for a neutral in a 240V
>>> circuit in North America. All that's needed for a 240V load to work is
>>> the two hots. Period.
>>
>>I am not disagreeing with that statement, "There is no need for a Neutral
>>in a 240V circuit in N America."
>>But some what recently there is that 4th wire being used. My house does
>>not
>>have the 4th but the newer ones do. Previousely you indicated that there
>>was NO Neutral in a 240 circuit. I was just trying to clarifiy what the
>>4th
>>wire was exactly.
>
> It's a neutral. That doesn't contradict my original statement given in
> my previous post. It performs a function that most closely resembles a
> multiwire circuit.
>
> The best way to think of all of this is to not think of "neutral" and
> "240V" in the same breath (I think I may have mixed a metaphor there).
>
> "Neutral" only has meaning at 120V. If there is a neutral wire in a
> 240V circuit it's because there is some 120V load in the appliance
> that's being powered. NEC no longer permits the ground wire to perform
> that function (and rightly so) in new construction. That's why you see
> 4 wire "240V" circuits.
>
>
> - -
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

"Roger Shoaf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Technically I think Duane is correct here. The preferred way would be to
> have the circuit feed a sub-panel and have two circuits branch off from
> there. Keep this in mind if you are going to have your electrical
> inspected.


Yeah I agree and did not make the install modification permanent in the
event that I do ever move or have an inspection.

In article <[email protected]>, "BAF" <[email protected]> wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

Please turn off HTML before you post again. Thank you.
>
>Sounds like you're confusing 110 with 220

No reason at all to think that. He has a 220V table saw that needs a
(minimum) 20A circuit, and he's asking if it's OK to hook it up to a 30A 220V
breaker. No mention of 110 anywhere.
>
>To run your Griz Table Saw (I have the 1023Z) you need to add a 220
>breaker (looks like 2 breakers in 1 and takes up 2 slots) to you panel

No he doesn't. He already has a 220 breaker.

>and then have a 4 wire cable (Neutral, ground, 110 Phase A, 110 Phase B)
>run to the saw.

Wrong. He needs a three-wire cable (hot, hot, and ground). The table saw,
being a 220V device, doesn't need the neutral.
>
>The gauge of the wire is determined by the distance the saw is from the
>panel and the amount of current it will draw (in your case 20 Amps).

Wrong again. The gauge of the wire is determined principally by the rating of
the breaker protecting it. For the 30A breaker that the OP says he has, the
*minimum* wire size is 10ga copper (or 8ga aluminum) regardless of the
distance from the breaker to the equipment. In residential applications such
as the OP's, it is *highly* unlikely that the load can be far enough away from
the breaker as to require a heavier gauge of circuit conductor.

>There's a formula for this but I don't have it handy so you should
>really have someone who knows what they're doing (electrician?) help you
>if you have any doubt about doing it yourself!

Well, at least *that* is good advice.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

In article <[email protected]>, "TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Lou said:
>> I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground, neutral, hot) coming from a 30
>> amp (unused) breaker
>> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
>> out the 30 breaker for a 20?
>
>Lou, This sounds like a 110v Circuit.

Not if it used to power a water heater like he said. He's probably looking at
black-white-bare and thinking he's seeing hot-neutral-ground, when in fact
it's really hot-hot-ground on a 220V circuit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

You "can" do it, as long as you use a 30a plug and outlet.

Personally I would do the whole thing as 20a. Code only requires the
breaker to protect the house wiring, but it is nice when it protects the
machine wiring also. I bet when you compare 20a outlet/plugs to 30a, it is
actually cheaper to replace the breaker.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C4F4E2.8825C760
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lou,

=20

Sounds like you're confusing 110 with 220=20

=20

To run your Griz Table Saw (I have the 1023Z) you need to add a 220 =
breaker (looks like 2 breakers in 1 and takes up 2 slots) to you panel =
and then have a 4 wire cable (Neutral, ground, 110 Phase A, 110 Phase B) =
run to the saw.=20

=20

The gauge of the wire is determined by the distance the saw is from the =
panel and the amount of current it will draw (in your case 20 Amps). =
There's a formula for this but I don't have it handy so you should =
really have someone who knows what they're doing (electrician?) help you =
if you have any doubt about doing it yourself!

=20

Good Luck

=20

BAF

Woodworking Business Apprentice Program




"loutent" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:070120051716319758%[email protected]...
>I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
> several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
> information I believe. Now I actually have something to
> work with!
>=20
> I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
> (almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
> neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
> power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
> is less than 20 years old (just for reference).
>=20
> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
> out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
> harm the magnetic switch or anything else?
>=20
> Thanks for any input.
>=20
> Lou
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C4F4E2.8825C760
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Lou,<?xml:namespace=20
prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"=20
/><o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Sounds=20
like you=92re confusing 110 with 220 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">To=20
run your Griz Table Saw (I have the 1023Z) you need to add a 220 breaker =
(looks=20
like 2 breakers in 1 and takes up 2 slots) to you panel and then have a =
4 wire=20
cable (Neutral, ground, 110 Phase A, 110 Phase B) run to the saw.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">The=20
gauge of the wire is determined by the distance the saw is from the =
panel and=20
the amount of current it will draw (in your case 20 Amps). There=92s a =
formula for=20
this but I don=92t have it handy so you should really have someone who =
knows what=20
they=92re doing (electrician?) help you if you have any doubt about =
doing it=20
yourself!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Good=20
Luck<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'">BAF<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
class=3DStyleArial10pt><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><A=20
href=3D"http://bostonaccentfurniture.com/apprentice/">Woodworking =
Business=20
Apprentice Program</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in =
0pt"></SPAN></SPAN></P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"loutent" &lt;</FONT><A =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><FONT=20
size=3D2>[email protected]</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>&gt; wrote in message =
</FONT><A=20
href=3D"news:070120051716319758%[email protected]"><FONT=20
size=3D2>news:070120051716319758%[email protected]</FONT></A><FONT=20
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D2>&gt;I had an electrical&nbsp; =
question a few=20
months ago about this, and got<BR>&gt; several varied responses - mainly =
because=20
I did not have enough<BR>&gt; information I believe. Now I actually have =

something to<BR>&gt; work with!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I have a brand new =
Grizzly=20
1023SL sitting in the basement<BR>&gt; (almost) ready to plug in. I have =
a=20
copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,<BR>&gt; neutral, hot) coming from a 30 =
amp=20
(unused) breaker which used to<BR>&gt; power a water heater (now gas). =
Our house=20
has 200 amp service and<BR>&gt; is less than 20 years old (just for=20
reference).<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to =

change<BR>&gt; out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will =
I<BR>&gt;=20
harm the magnetic switch or anything else?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thanks for =
any=20
input.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Lou</FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C4F4E2.8825C760--

"LRod" wrote:

>It's a neutral.

"Neutral" can be a very confusing term.

Rather than neutral, think of it as an "above ground return".

It can be a current carrying conductor and should be treated as such.

"Earth Ground", usually the green wire in the electrical world, is a
totally different issue.

HTH

Lew

"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>>
> ...
>> ...I have my TS sharing a 50 amp circuit with a clothes dryer.
>
> Don't think that's code unless you're using the dryer outlet or the saw,
> not both?

Perhaps. Most of the time it is one or the other but both together is still
about 12 amp under the circuit capacity IIRC.

Doesn't every electrical question here on the wReck have pretty much the
same effect as a troll? ;-)

Patriarch

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Your example of the 120V receptacle is simply a variation of a multi
> wire circuit which looks just like a 240V circuit everywhere along the
> circuit except at the loads. But a neutral IS needed in a multiwire
> circuit. It isn't in a 240V circuit excepting the dryer/range
> applications.

So do you still maintain, There is no neutral in a 240V circuit (North
America)?






>
>
> - -
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:26:50 GMT, "Dave"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
>principle that the system should run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
>whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
>wiring on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of
>current. In the owner's manual they will say that they want a 20 amp
>circuit, not a 30 amp circuit. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system
>to internally trip with excess current. But if you blow the motor and Grizz
>find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause
>to blame you for some of that problem. Changing the breaker is a one-minute
>job. Cheap insurance.

Please. You should refrain from offering electrical advice. I'm sorry
if that hurts your feelings, but your reply does not reflect the
slightest bit of reality with regard to electrical theory,
engineering, or legal requirements.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system should run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of
current. In the owner's manual they will say that they want a 20 amp
circuit, not a 30 amp circuit. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system
to internally trip with excess current. But if you blow the motor and Grizz
find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause
to blame you for some of that problem. Changing the breaker is a one-minute
job. Cheap insurance.

Dave

"loutent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:080120051043468100%[email protected]...
> Thanks for the help everyone.
>
> Since I already have the double 30 amp breaker
> and the 10 g wire with hot,hot,ground, I am
> going to use it as soon as I get to the Borg to
> get the proper outlet and plug.
>
> Nothing like an electrical question to
> stimulate discussion - especially in a woodworking
> group!
>
> Lou
>
> In article <070120051716319758%[email protected]>, loutent
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
>> several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
>> information I believe. Now I actually have something to
>> work with!
>>
>> I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
>> (almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
>> neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
>> power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
>> is less than 20 years old (just for reference).
>>
>> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
>> out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
>> harm the magnetic switch or anything else?
>>
>> Thanks for any input.
>>
>> Lou

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> What I'm trying to say (and apparently unsuccesfully) is that
> *electrically* there is no neutral or need for a neutral in a 240V
> circuit in North America. All that's needed for a 240V load to work is
> the two hots. Period.

I am not disagreeing with that statement, "There is no need for a Neutral
in a 240V circuit in N America."
But some what recently there is that 4th wire being used. My house does not
have the 4th but the newer ones do. Previousely you indicated that there
was NO Neutral in a 240 circuit. I was just trying to clarifiy what the 4th
wire was exactly.

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It's a neutral. That doesn't contradict my original statement given in
> my previous post. It performs a function that most closely resembles a
> multiwire circuit.
>
> The best way to think of all of this is to not think of "neutral" and
> "240V" in the same breath (I think I may have mixed a metaphor there).
>
> "Neutral" only has meaning at 120V. If there is a neutral wire in a
> 240V circuit it's because there is some 120V load in the appliance
> that's being powered. NEC no longer permits the ground wire to perform
> that function (and rightly so) in new construction. That's why you see
> 4 wire "240V" circuits.


Ok, I think I am see what you are saying now....Thanks

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:16:31 -0500, loutent <[email protected]> wrote:

>I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
>several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
>information I believe. Now I actually have something to
>work with!
>
>I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
>(almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
>neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
>power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
>is less than 20 years old (just for reference).
>
>Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
>out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
>harm the magnetic switch or anything else?
>
>Thanks for any input.
>
>Lou

No. No.

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 +0000, Dave wrote:
>
>> A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree
>> in
>> principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
>> whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The
>> internal
>> wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
>> amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
>> higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip
>> with excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
>> automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that
>> you
>> started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
>> Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
>> want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
>> circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you
>> blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the
>> wires, they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker
>> is a one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's
>> manual to the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp
>> later, if you wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
>> Cheap insurance.
>>
>> Dave
>
> Oh, Dave - A BIG Thank You!
>
> After reading your post and realizing the risks I've been taking with all
> those 60 watt lamps and 1/10th watt alarm clocks plugged into those
> humongous 15 and 20 amp circuits, I've rushed breathessly around the house
> and unplugged them all! Gawd only knows the risks we all take on a
> regular basis by plugging under-utilizing dangerous equipment into over
> rated outlets!!!
>
> Thanks again for saving me from disaster with my insurance company!
>
> In eternal debt to you,
>
> - Doug

Dear Doug,

Thankyou for your facetious comment, which I anticipated from someone.
Those appliances are all rated to be plugged into 15/20 amp 110v AC outlets.
So of course the manufacturers design those appliances with that point in
mind, and with appropriate safeguards to protect consumers based on that
maximum amperage the appliance could be subject to. However this table saw
is designed to be plugged into a 20 amp circuit. Sure, I think it will work
fine on a 30 amp circuit, provided there is no short circuit or higher than
anticipated draw. I do wonder why Grizz didn't just say that it will work
fine with 30 or even 50 amp breakers. But it didn't, maybe for reasons of
liability.... Therefore this analogy that you are making is not an accurate
comparison.

Dave

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:46:07 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> What I'm trying to say (and apparently unsuccesfully) is that
>> *electrically* there is no neutral or need for a neutral in a 240V
>> circuit in North America. All that's needed for a 240V load to work is
>> the two hots. Period.
>
>I am not disagreeing with that statement, "There is no need for a Neutral
>in a 240V circuit in N America."
>But some what recently there is that 4th wire being used. My house does not
>have the 4th but the newer ones do. Previousely you indicated that there
>was NO Neutral in a 240 circuit. I was just trying to clarifiy what the 4th
>wire was exactly.

It's a neutral. That doesn't contradict my original statement given in
my previous post. It performs a function that most closely resembles a
multiwire circuit.

The best way to think of all of this is to not think of "neutral" and
"240V" in the same breath (I think I may have mixed a metaphor there).

"Neutral" only has meaning at 120V. If there is a neutral wire in a
240V circuit it's because there is some 120V load in the appliance
that's being powered. NEC no longer permits the ground wire to perform
that function (and rightly so) in new construction. That's why you see
4 wire "240V" circuits.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 +0000, Dave wrote:

> A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
> principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
> whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
> wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
> amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
> higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip
> with excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
> automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you
> started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
> Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
> want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
> circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you
> blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the
> wires, they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker
> is a one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's
> manual to the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp
> later, if you wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
> Cheap insurance.
>
> Dave

Oh, Dave - A BIG Thank You!

After reading your post and realizing the risks I've been taking with all
those 60 watt lamps and 1/10th watt alarm clocks plugged into those
humongous 15 and 20 amp circuits, I've rushed breathessly around the house
and unplugged them all! Gawd only knows the risks we all take on a
regular basis by plugging under-utilizing dangerous equipment into over
rated outlets!!!

Thanks again for saving me from disaster with my insurance company!

In eternal debt to you,

- Doug

--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 04:42:58 +0000, Dave wrote:


>>
>> Oh, Dave - A BIG Thank You!
>>
>> After reading your post and realizing the risks I've been taking with
>> all those 60 watt lamps and 1/10th watt alarm clocks plugged into those
>> humongous 15 and 20 amp circuits, I've rushed breathessly around the
>> house and unplugged them all! Gawd only knows the risks we all take on
>> a regular basis by plugging under-utilizing dangerous equipment into
>> over rated outlets!!!
>>
>> Thanks again for saving me from disaster with my insurance company!
>>
>> In eternal debt to you,
>>
>> - Doug
>
> Dear Doug,
>
> Thankyou for your facetious comment, which I anticipated from someone.
> Those appliances are all rated to be plugged into 15/20 amp 110v AC
> outlets. So of course the manufacturers design those appliances with that
> point in mind, and with appropriate safeguards to protect consumers based
> on that maximum amperage the appliance could be subject to. However this
> table saw is designed to be plugged into a 20 amp circuit. Sure, I think
> it will work fine on a 30 amp circuit, provided there is no short circuit
> or higher than anticipated draw. I do wonder why Grizz didn't just say
> that it will work fine with 30 or even 50 amp breakers. But it didn't,
> maybe for reasons of liability.... Therefore this analogy that you are
> making is not an accurate comparison.


Dear Dave,

Breakers are designed to protect the wiring to the load, not the load.
All modern motors (load) have thermal breakers integrated to protect the
motor.

Your friend,

- Doug

--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)

A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with
excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you
started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow
the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires,
they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a
one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to
the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you
wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
Cheap insurance.

Dave

"loutent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:090120051434165364%[email protected]...
> I'd just like to thank everyone again. The saw now
> has power.
>
> I left the 30 amp breaker. Bought a single outlet
> rated 20 amps/240 v and a matching plug. It
> is dedicated to the saw (nothing else can/will be
> plugged into it).
>
> It's a bitch working with that 10 g wire though.
>
> The 1023 SL is just humming right along! I haven't
> put a blade in it yet - still fiddling with the wings &
> fence. I want to try to get everything as perfect as I can
> from the get-go.
>
>
> Lou

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:

> Not if it used to power a water heater like he said. He's probably looking at
> black-white-bare and thinking he's seeing hot-neutral-ground, when in fact
> it's really hot-hot-ground on a 220V circuit.

Which is why you're supposed to wrap some red tape around the white wire
in the boxes at both ends, to indicate that it's a hot conductor.

In article <[email protected]>, DJ Delorie <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> writes:
> > DJ Delorie wrote:
> > > If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician.
> >
> > Could probably find one of my students.
>
> Or the guys who wired my house :-P
>
> > After that go back and enroll again in EE101, the power option.
>
> Sorry, already have an EE degree. I even know how to make
> transformers from scratch.

I always thought you made transformers from copper and iron :-)

In article <070120051716319758%[email protected]>,
loutent <[email protected]> wrote:

> I had an electrical question a few months ago about this, and got
> several varied responses - mainly because I did not have enough
> information I believe. Now I actually have something to
> work with!
>
> I have a brand new Grizzly 1023SL sitting in the basement
> (almost) ready to plug in. I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground,
> neutral, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which used to
> power a water heater (now gas). Our house has 200 amp service and
> is less than 20 years old (just for reference).
>
> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
> out the 30 breaker for a 20? If I leave it as is, will I
> harm the magnetic switch or anything else?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Lou

If you have ground/neutral/hot, it's 110, not 220. If you're trying to
run a motor designed for 220, you need to have two hots (one from column
A and one from column B). Typically you would do this by putting on a
different receptacle and moving rewiring the panel side of the circuit
to go to a double-pole breaker. Standard practice is to wrap red tape
around the white wire at both ends to indicate that it's now a hot
conductor.

Be that as it may, amperage requirements are *minimum* requirements. If
the machine needs 20 amps, it's perfectly fine to plug it into a 30 amp
circuit. It won't hurt the circuit and it won't hurt the machine.

You do need to make sure you've got the voltage right. Many motors can
be configured to run on either 110 or 220 by moving a jumper or
connecting to different terminals, but make sure you got it right. A
mixup in either direction won't be good.

The Grizzly saw hookup originally asked about is a 3 wire hookup to
the electrical switch. Hot-Hot-Neutral. If the wire has a white
jacket on it, it is a neutral. Ground wires are bare.

Beyond that, if you open up your main service panel to your house,
there SHOULD be a little green screw run through one edge of the
NEUTRAL bar that connects to the back of the service panel, which in
turn is connected to the GROUND bar in the service panel. That said
in the main service panel there is a completed circuit between neutral
and ground in a 4 wire hookup. In sub-panels, the "green screw" is
removed and the 4 wires (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are run separately to
the main service panel. It's just a formality done so that an
electrician can tell it is a sub panel, since back at the main panel
the ground and neutral are combined...see above. This is according to
current NEC code.

So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...they connect
together back at the panel. Therefore, if it's got a white jacket,
call it neutral, if it's bare, call it a ground.

Kevin

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:36:39 +0000, LRod
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 GMT, "Dave"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
>>principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
>>whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
>>wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
>>amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
>>higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with
>>excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
>>automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you
>>started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
>>Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
>>want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
>>circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow
>>the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires,
>>they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a
>>one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to
>>the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you
>>wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
>> Cheap insurance.
>
>As I said before:
>
>Please. You should refrain from offering electrical advice. I'm sorry
>if that hurts your feelings, but your reply does not reflect the
>slightest bit of reality with regard to electrical theory,
>engineering, or legal requirements.
>
>
>- -
>LRod
>
>Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
>Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
>http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 05:13:29 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Your example of the 120V receptacle is simply a variation of a multi
>> wire circuit which looks just like a 240V circuit everywhere along the
>> circuit except at the loads. But a neutral IS needed in a multiwire
>> circuit. It isn't in a 240V circuit excepting the dryer/range
>> applications.
>
>So do you still maintain, There is no neutral in a 240V circuit (North
>America)?

What I'm trying to say (and apparently unsuccesfully) is that
*electrically* there is no neutral or need for a neutral in a 240V
circuit in North America. All that's needed for a 240V load to work is
the two hots. Period.

The ground is a safety requirement that was added to the NEC several
years ago. It isn't electrically required for a strictly 240V load to
work (North America). In some other locations with solely 240V
service, it may be that they have a 240V and a neutral. Probably not,
but I don't know. But in North America, that's not how 240V works.

The "neutral" is a safety requirement that was added to the NEC
recently to alleviate the anomalous situation (elsewhere prohibited)
in dryers and ranges where the ground had previously been permitted to
perform the duties of a neutral as in a multi wire (2 x 120V/shared
neutral) circuit. That is, there were some 120V things going on in the
machine that is fed by a 240V circuit.

So, in the strictest sense of the words, yes I suppose you could say
that there is a neutral in [certain] 240V circuits (North America).
But it's not electrically necessary in order to run most 240V loads.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The other thing is make sure your terms are straight when you're
> describing your situation. You actually have a copper, 10 gauge (3
> wire - ground, hot,, hot) coming from a 30 amp (unused) breaker which
> used to power a water heater (now gas). The fact that it used to power
> a water heater tells us it's a 240V circuit protected by a 30A
> breaker, thus the wires are hot, hot, ground. There is no neutral in a
> 240V circuit (North America).

With that in mind, and I agree about ground, hot, hot on a 3 wire set up.
Many newer homes with 220 have 4 wires, 1 being ground. What do you call
the other 3?

"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Of course, the other outlet needs to be wired to the same ampacity of
> the breaker to protect that wiring as well as the original...otherwise,
> one would have an unsafe condition in that section of the circuit. I
> was agreeing w/ the load of the saw as not being an excessive load w/
> the dryer for short periods, especially since one has to be there to
> operate it...

Yes, and it is. I think we are seeing eye to eye here Duane... Thank you.

"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Don't think that's the issue...I think (US anyway) code only allows a
> single outlet on a dedicated circuit for the dryer...
>
> Note I'm not saying it's an unsafe combination, just pointing out what
> might be an issue when (and, of course, if) you were to sell or other
> reason to need to ensure compliance...

I see. I feared that when I install the extra outlet so it is mounted out
side the wall and easily taken apart in the event I ever move. I have been
gonna move since 1986. I'm still here LOL.

If you blow the motor and there was 30 amps running through the wires, it
would indicate a defective motor.

"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eRTDd.17273$8l.12748@pd7tw1no...
> A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
> principle that the system should run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
> whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
> wiring on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of
> current. In the owner's manual they will say that they want a 20 amp
> circuit, not a 30 amp circuit. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system
> to internally trip with excess current. But if you blow the motor and
Grizz
> find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find
cause
> to blame you for some of that problem. Changing the breaker is a
one-minute
> job. Cheap insurance.

Man, if the OP thinks he had confilicting advice last time, what is he
going to think now?


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]

LRod <[email protected]> writes:
> There is no neutral in a 240V circuit (North America).

There can be, it's a 4-wire circuit (black hot, red hot, white
neutral, bare ground) used for multi-voltage appliances like ovens and
dryers (240 for heat, 120 for lights, etc).

But a 3-wire 240 doesn't have a neutral. Or at least, it isn't
*supposed* to have a neutral. Circuits wired for 240v without a
neutral *should* have the white wire tagged with red tape or something
to indicate that it's not a neutral.

Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> writes:
> DJ Delorie wrote:
> > If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician.
>
> Could probably find one of my students.

Or the guys who wired my house :-P

> After that go back and enroll again in EE101, the power option.

Sorry, already have an EE degree. I even know how to make
transformers from scratch.

Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> writes:
> > It's a neutral.
>
> "Neutral" can be a very confusing term.

If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician.

> Rather than neutral, think of it as an "above ground return".

Using the word "ground" to describe the center tap of a transformer is
misleading. It is the neutral tap of a multi-tap transformer. It is
grounded at some point, but it is not ground, nor is it a "return".

"TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lou said:
>> I have a copper,10 gauge (3 wire - ground, neutral, hot) coming from a 30
>> amp (unused) breaker
>> Grizzly recommends 20 amp/220. Do I need to change
>> out the 30 breaker for a 20?
>
> Lou, This sounds like a 110v Circuit. You need 220V for that saw. Change
> the single pole (assumed) 30A 110V breaker with a dual pole breaker
> (20A - 220V).
>
Whats the last water heater you saw connected to a 30a 120v line?
It has to be 240v; he just thought the 2nd hot was a neutral.
(However, it does suggest he shouldn't be doing any of this himself.)