"Joe C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Is a 30,000 BTU heater big enough for a two car gar-shop with 10 foot
> ceilings? This would be a ventless natural gas heater.
>
> OR....
>
> Does anyone have a link for a conversion table for BTU needed per square
> (cubic?) foot?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joe C.
>
>
Depends on a few variables! How well insulated, quality of the doors and
windows, outdoor temps for a start. But, a well insulated garage should heat
fine with 30,000 BTU. I have a 24'x38' garage with 10 foot ceilings that I
heat with 50,000 BTU, insulation is good, but could be better, but the
furnace is plenty large. North Dakota climate.
I would avoid a ventless heater though. Our area they are not even allowed
by code.
Greg
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Joe C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Ok, yeah, I guess I could've given some more details. I live in Chicago
> > which means temps down to zero (occasionally, more like teens), ceiling
of
> > the garage is drywall with 12" of insulation blown in, but the walls are
> > bare brick. Door is relatively well insulated. Garage dimensions are:
> > 18'
> > X 21' with 9' ceilings (not 10" as in original post). I wouldn't do
> > ventless with kerosene or propane (do they even make them?) but how
about
> > with natural gas?
> >
> > Thanks again,
>
> IMO, not going to make it. I have that sized heater for my shop (propane)
,
> about the size of yours. I get a 30 degree temperature rise, so when it
is
> zero outside, plan on 30 inside. From the end of December until the end
of
> February, I do very little in the shop. Add some insulation on the walls
> and you will get better performance. If I was buying a heater now, I'd
go
> for a variable model from 30 to 80,000 Btu. If I was going to spend every
> day out there, I'd install a small furnace.
> Ed
>
>
Geez Ed, here I go agreeing with you again! (ABPW!)
To the OP
Those bare brick walls are going to be a killer for heat. Some 2x2 furring
strips, some 1-1/2 styrofoam, plastic, and a few pieces of sheetrock would
help alot!
When you were talking ventless I was assuming a ventless wall mount heater.
You can buy wall mount vented heaters too, propane or natural gas. I still
caution against a ventless heater.
I think you will need at least 60,000 BTU, maybe more unless you add some
insulation to the walls. Although a 30,000 may buy you some comfort on most
days. A Reznor or Hot Dawg heater is really the way to go.
Greg
"Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Greg O wrote:
> > "Joe C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Is a 30,000 BTU heater big enough for a two car gar-shop with 10
> foot
> > > ceilings? This would be a ventless natural gas heater.
> > >
> > > OR....
> > >
> > > Does anyone have a link for a conversion table for BTU needed per
> square
> > > (cubic?) foot?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Joe C.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Depends on a few variables! How well insulated, quality of the doors
> and
> > windows, outdoor temps for a start. But, a well insulated garage
> should heat
> > fine with 30,000 BTU. I have a 24'x38' garage with 10 foot ceilings
> that I
> > heat with 50,000 BTU, insulation is good, but could be better, but
> the
> > furnace is plenty large. North Dakota climate.
> > I would avoid a ventless heater though. Our area they are not even
> allowed
> > by code.
> > Greg
>
> Hi Greg. What part of N.D. are you in? I see that Menards has the
> ventless type heaters in Fargo. I'm surprised they can sell them if
> they are not code rated. I think that Harbor Freight has them as well.
> Ciao',
>
> Paul
>
Fargo.
Not allowed in the city of Fargo. Out in the sticks you can kill yourself
anyway you want, so they can sell them. Here in the big city we have codes
to prevent you from doing that! Just mention non-wented heaters to the
mechanical imspector and watch him get excited!
Greg
"Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hmmm. I'll have to check the codes here in D.L. I was thinking of
> getting one for my shop. One thing I don't like (as mentioned
> elsewhere in the thread) is the high condensation you get going from 20
> degrees up to 65 or so with the gas heaters. I have a couple of
> electric heaters now, but usually blast a small gas heater to preheat
> the shop quickly. I run around wiping everything down as it heats up
> to fend off the rust. On another aside, I just got an email from the
> wife & it looks like we're getting a Menards in D.L. Woohoo! Not a
> Rockler or Woodcraft, but pretty big doin's for us.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Paul
>
Condensation is from non-vented heaters, vented heaters do not create
condesation in the shop as it is vented outside. As for Menards, I rarely go
there! The one in Fargo is so damned busy all the time it takes over an hour
to get some sticks if you get them out of the yard. I hit the local yards,
Simonsons, Crane Johnson. Most of the big box stores' prices are not any
better than I can get else where, and get help that actually knows their
product too. I may hit Home depot, Lowes or Menards on a sunday when the
locals are closed.
If D.L. gets a Menards, you will lose the local lumber yards, perhaps a
hardware store too!
Greg
"Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Greg O wrote:
> > "Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Hmmm. I'll have to check the codes here in D.L. I was thinking of
> > > getting one for my shop. One thing I don't like (as mentioned
> > > elsewhere in the thread) is the high condensation you get going
> from 20
> > > degrees up to 65 or so with the gas heaters. I have a couple of
> > > electric heaters now, but usually blast a small gas heater to
> preheat
> > > the shop quickly. I run around wiping everything down as it heats
> up
> > > to fend off the rust. On another aside, I just got an email from
> the
> > > wife & it looks like we're getting a Menards in D.L. Woohoo! Not
> a
> > > Rockler or Woodcraft, but pretty big doin's for us.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> >
> > Condensation is from non-vented heaters, vented heaters do not create
> > condesation in the shop as it is vented outside. As for Menards, I
> rarely go
> > there! The one in Fargo is so damned busy all the time it takes over
> an hour
> > to get some sticks if you get them out of the yard. I hit the local
> yards,
> > Simonsons, Crane Johnson. Most of the big box stores' prices are not
> any
> > better than I can get else where, and get help that actually knows
> their
> > product too. I may hit Home depot, Lowes or Menards on a sunday when
> the
> > locals are closed.
> > If D.L. gets a Menards, you will lose the local lumber yards, perhaps
> a
> > hardware store too!
> > Greg
>
>
> This is true, and I generally support the "small guy" over the big box
> retail, but there is an attitude at some of the places in town where if
> "you don't like it you can go to Fargo". I am also willing to pay more
> for service, but do not like being gouged. If the service is not
> there, then you may as well go for price. I agree totally with you
> however and the places I do frequent that give me service may be hurt.
> That to me would not be worth the convenience and slightly lower
> prices. I guess I just want to have my cake & eat it too.
> Also thanks for the tip on the vented /nonvented condensation problem.
> I guess I will look into punching a hole in the wall. Not really a big
> deal I suppose
>
> Paul
>
If you are looking for shop heat, consider a Modine Hot Dawg or a Reznor
UDAP heater. I think you can buy the Hot Dawg heater at Mills Fleet Farm for
about $400. Also the venting will add to the cost too. In the end instead of
just a convection wall heater you get a heater hanging from the ceiling, out
of the way, with a fan to help circulate the air.
It depends on how big of shop you are heating as to the size of heater, of
course!
Greg
"Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>
> I'm only going to be heating a largeish single car size garage. I'm
> not sure right off hand what the measurements are. It is well
> insulated, but being a garage, there are areas around the door etc.,
> that show some light. I will check into the Hot Dawg and see what size
> they recommend. Sounds like I will need a good heater. The wife said
> snowing, blowing and 50mph gusts. Not nice...
>
> Paul
>
1-1/2 car garage should heat very well with a 30,000 BTU Hot Dawg. That is
the smallest they make. Weather strip the door well to cut down on the
drafts.
I assume the overhead door in insulated?
I have a 50,000 BTU residential furnace in my garage. It is a model that can
be laid sideways so I hung it near the ceiling, added a air filter and a bit
of duct to it. My garage is 24 x 38 feet, and it heats it well, t-shirt
weather all year 'round. Plus I also have AC connected to it all to, so in
those hot humid, misquito filled evenings I can close the door to stay bite
and sweat free!
Greg
I just picked up a 35,000 btu "Reddy Heater". My shop is 20x20 and the
walls are insulated but it has no celing (want storage) and the trusses are
not insulated yet. It was 8 degrees in Iowa the other morning and I fired
it up - in twenty minutes, I could take my coat off.
Don
"Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sounds like the 30,000 BTU unit is the one for me. The garage is quite
> well insulated, but as you say I will have to weatherstrip the door a
> bit better. With the two electric heaters in there I can maintain
> decent heat, but it takes quite a while to heat it up. I never thought
> about air conditioning. That's another possibility. Maybe even just a
> window type unit.
>
> Paul
>
"Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sounds like the 30,000 BTU unit is the one for me. The garage is quite
> well insulated, but as you say I will have to weatherstrip the door a
> bit better. With the two electric heaters in there I can maintain
> decent heat, but it takes quite a while to heat it up. I never thought
> about air conditioning. That's another possibility. Maybe even just a
> window type unit.
>
> Paul
>
I had a window unit before I ripped it all out and went this way. It helps
that I do HVAC work for a living! The condensing unit cost me nothing, it is
actually parts from two differant units that were heading for the trash. The
furnace was a scratch and dent from a distributor we deal with.
Greg
Greg O wrote:
> "Joe C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Is a 30,000 BTU heater big enough for a two car gar-shop with 10
foot
> > ceilings? This would be a ventless natural gas heater.
> >
> > OR....
> >
> > Does anyone have a link for a conversion table for BTU needed per
square
> > (cubic?) foot?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Joe C.
> >
> >
>
> Depends on a few variables! How well insulated, quality of the doors
and
> windows, outdoor temps for a start. But, a well insulated garage
should heat
> fine with 30,000 BTU. I have a 24'x38' garage with 10 foot ceilings
that I
> heat with 50,000 BTU, insulation is good, but could be better, but
the
> furnace is plenty large. North Dakota climate.
> I would avoid a ventless heater though. Our area they are not even
allowed
> by code.
> Greg
Hi Greg. What part of N.D. are you in? I see that Menards has the
ventless type heaters in Fargo. I'm surprised they can sell them if
they are not code rated. I think that Harbor Freight has them as well.
Ciao',
Paul
Hmmm. I'll have to check the codes here in D.L. I was thinking of
getting one for my shop. One thing I don't like (as mentioned
elsewhere in the thread) is the high condensation you get going from 20
degrees up to 65 or so with the gas heaters. I have a couple of
electric heaters now, but usually blast a small gas heater to preheat
the shop quickly. I run around wiping everything down as it heats up
to fend off the rust. On another aside, I just got an email from the
wife & it looks like we're getting a Menards in D.L. Woohoo! Not a
Rockler or Woodcraft, but pretty big doin's for us.
Cheers,
Paul
Greg O wrote:
> "Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hmmm. I'll have to check the codes here in D.L. I was thinking of
> > getting one for my shop. One thing I don't like (as mentioned
> > elsewhere in the thread) is the high condensation you get going
from 20
> > degrees up to 65 or so with the gas heaters. I have a couple of
> > electric heaters now, but usually blast a small gas heater to
preheat
> > the shop quickly. I run around wiping everything down as it heats
up
> > to fend off the rust. On another aside, I just got an email from
the
> > wife & it looks like we're getting a Menards in D.L. Woohoo! Not
a
> > Rockler or Woodcraft, but pretty big doin's for us.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Paul
> >
>
> Condensation is from non-vented heaters, vented heaters do not create
> condesation in the shop as it is vented outside. As for Menards, I
rarely go
> there! The one in Fargo is so damned busy all the time it takes over
an hour
> to get some sticks if you get them out of the yard. I hit the local
yards,
> Simonsons, Crane Johnson. Most of the big box stores' prices are not
any
> better than I can get else where, and get help that actually knows
their
> product too. I may hit Home depot, Lowes or Menards on a sunday when
the
> locals are closed.
> If D.L. gets a Menards, you will lose the local lumber yards, perhaps
a
> hardware store too!
> Greg
This is true, and I generally support the "small guy" over the big box
retail, but there is an attitude at some of the places in town where if
"you don't like it you can go to Fargo". I am also willing to pay more
for service, but do not like being gouged. If the service is not
there, then you may as well go for price. I agree totally with you
however and the places I do frequent that give me service may be hurt.
That to me would not be worth the convenience and slightly lower
prices. I guess I just want to have my cake & eat it too.
Also thanks for the tip on the vented /nonvented condensation problem.
I guess I will look into punching a hole in the wall. Not really a big
deal I suppose
Paul
Greg O wrote:
> "Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Greg O wrote:
> > > "Paul in MN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Hmmm. I'll have to check the codes here in D.L. I was
thinking of
> > > > getting one for my shop. One thing I don't like (as mentioned
> > > > elsewhere in the thread) is the high condensation you get going
> > from 20
> > > > degrees up to 65 or so with the gas heaters. I have a couple
of
> > > > electric heaters now, but usually blast a small gas heater to
> > preheat
> > > > the shop quickly. I run around wiping everything down as it
heats
> > up
> > > > to fend off the rust. On another aside, I just got an email
from
> > the
> > > > wife & it looks like we're getting a Menards in D.L. Woohoo!
Not
> > a
> > > > Rockler or Woodcraft, but pretty big doin's for us.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > >
> > > Condensation is from non-vented heaters, vented heaters do not
create
> > > condesation in the shop as it is vented outside. As for Menards,
I
> > rarely go
> > > there! The one in Fargo is so damned busy all the time it takes
over
> > an hour
> > > to get some sticks if you get them out of the yard. I hit the
local
> > yards,
> > > Simonsons, Crane Johnson. Most of the big box stores' prices are
not
> > any
> > > better than I can get else where, and get help that actually
knows
> > their
> > > product too. I may hit Home depot, Lowes or Menards on a sunday
when
> > the
> > > locals are closed.
> > > If D.L. gets a Menards, you will lose the local lumber yards,
perhaps
> > a
> > > hardware store too!
> > > Greg
> >
> >
> > This is true, and I generally support the "small guy" over the big
box
> > retail, but there is an attitude at some of the places in town
where if
> > "you don't like it you can go to Fargo". I am also willing to pay
more
> > for service, but do not like being gouged. If the service is not
> > there, then you may as well go for price. I agree totally with you
> > however and the places I do frequent that give me service may be
hurt.
> > That to me would not be worth the convenience and slightly lower
> > prices. I guess I just want to have my cake & eat it too.
> > Also thanks for the tip on the vented /nonvented condensation
problem.
> > I guess I will look into punching a hole in the wall. Not really a
big
> > deal I suppose
> >
> > Paul
> >
>
> If you are looking for shop heat, consider a Modine Hot Dawg or a
Reznor
> UDAP heater. I think you can buy the Hot Dawg heater at Mills Fleet
Farm for
> about $400. Also the venting will add to the cost too. In the end
instead of
> just a convection wall heater you get a heater hanging from the
ceiling, out
> of the way, with a fan to help circulate the air.
> It depends on how big of shop you are heating as to the size of
heater, of
> course!
> Greg
I'm only going to be heating a largeish single car size garage. I'm
not sure right off hand what the measurements are. It is well
insulated, but being a garage, there are areas around the door etc.,
that show some light. I will check into the Hot Dawg and see what size
they recommend. Sounds like I will need a good heater. The wife said
snowing, blowing and 50mph gusts. Not nice...
Paul
Sounds like the 30,000 BTU unit is the one for me. The garage is quite
well insulated, but as you say I will have to weatherstrip the door a
bit better. With the two electric heaters in there I can maintain
decent heat, but it takes quite a while to heat it up. I never thought
about air conditioning. That's another possibility. Maybe even just a
window type unit.
Paul
RonB wrote:
> I heat a 630 cubic foot, three car garage with 11 foot ceilings with a
> 24,000 btu kerosene heater and a ceramic heat cube.
Hmm. 630 ft³ ÷ 11 ft = 57.27 ft². If your garage were square then
it would be about 7.57 ft on each side...
What kind of cars are you parking in there?
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
I heat a 630 cubic foot, three car garage with 11 foot ceilings with a
24,000 btu kerosene heater and a ceramic heat cube. The garage is pretty
well insulated including foam backed door panels. It also shares a wall
with the house.
On moderated days (around 40 degrees) I can usually let the kero heater run
for an hour or so, turn it off and the cube can keep up.
On really cold Kansas days (0 to teens, both units can keep the temp around
50- 60 depending on wind.
"Joe C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Ok, yeah, I guess I could've given some more details. I live in Chicago
> which means temps down to zero (occasionally, more like teens), ceiling of
> the garage is drywall with 12" of insulation blown in, but the walls are
> bare brick. Door is relatively well insulated. Garage dimensions are:
> 18'
> X 21' with 9' ceilings (not 10" as in original post). I wouldn't do
> ventless with kerosene or propane (do they even make them?) but how about
> with natural gas?
>
> Thanks again,
IMO, not going to make it. I have that sized heater for my shop (propane) ,
about the size of yours. I get a 30 degree temperature rise, so when it is
zero outside, plan on 30 inside. From the end of December until the end of
February, I do very little in the shop. Add some insulation on the walls
and you will get better performance. If I was buying a heater now, I'd go
for a variable model from 30 to 80,000 Btu. If I was going to spend every
day out there, I'd install a small furnace.
Ed
"Joe C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Is a 30,000 BTU heater big enough for a two car gar-shop with 10 foot
> ceilings? This would be a ventless natural gas heater.
>
> OR....
>
> Does anyone have a link for a conversion table for BTU needed per square
> (cubic?) foot?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joe C.
Depends on where you are and how well insulated your building is.
-j
First, the required BTU's are *NOT* a function of volume, it is a function
of heat loss. Heat loss is a function of area, insulating value, and
temperature differential with the outside.That said... It's complicated.
When I tried to figure this out for my shop ( 500 sf over a 2-car attached
garage, 5.5" fiberglass in the walls/floor and a foot over the ceiliing,
similar climate, northern NY). I ended up guessing at 2 10K BTU toe-kick
heaters. In retrospect, could have gotten by with one.
You could approach this problem imperically. That is, borrow some electric
heaters (if you have enough circuits) and see how they perform. If you could
get four of the little 5K BTU jobbies going and see how they perform. I
would think that 20K BTUs on a chilly day would be a goos starting guess
give you a sense of how much oomph you need.
I would be concerned with dumping all that water vapor (the result of
natural gas combustion) into a space with cold cast iron. Unless you always
keep the space heated, that water vapor will condense on the cold cast iron
and rust it.
-Stvee
"Joe C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Is a 30,000 BTU heater big enough for a two car gar-shop with 10 foot
> ceilings? This would be a ventless natural gas heater.
>
> OR....
>
> Does anyone have a link for a conversion table for BTU needed per square
> (cubic?) foot?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joe C.
>
>
Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:26:23 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I heat a 630 cubic foot, three car garage with 11 foot ceilings
>
>
> Ron,
>
> I think you might have dropped a zero on that cube. Wouldn't 6300 cu ft be more
> reasonable for a 3 car garage???
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS USA
What? a type o on the wreck? It could never happen.
Joe
"Bob G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:48:08 -0500, "Stephen M"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >First, the required BTU's are *NOT* a function of volume, it is a
function
> >of heat loss. Heat loss is a function of area, insulating value, and
> >temperature differential with the outside.That said... It's complicated.
> >
> >
> The procedure to measure heating cooling needs etc is I believe called
> a Manuel J....Not sure but one of my sons is in the heating business
> and he wipped out his clipboard and figured out what I needed in about
> 10 minutes....Bet a local heating/ air contractor could tell the OP
> just what he needs... BUT yea you know damn well he would want to sell
> you a heater...
>
After researching, I got the impression that what the best method would be
to have someone with really good experience to "adjust" the formulas. In
theory the formulas work. They are a simulation, and with all simulations,
they simplify/round/estimate/assume. It really depends on the sophistication
of the algorithm. Does it account for the size/quality/tightness of windows
and doors? It probably works reasonably well with tight new construction,
goes downhill with 100-year-old houses where there is alot of leakage and
you don't know what's in the walls.
My gut says that a formula in the hands of the inexperienced could yeild
results that were off by a factor of two. In this case, a poorly fitting
garage door could double your heating needs. The trick is telling the
difference between an experienced heating pro and a hack with a formula that
only takes into account wall size and assumed insulation.
-Steve
In article <[email protected]>,
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> RonB wrote:
>
> > I heat a 630 cubic foot, three car garage with 11 foot ceilings with a
> > 24,000 btu kerosene heater and a ceramic heat cube.
>
> Hmm. 630 ft³ ÷ 11 ft = 57.27 ft². If your garage were square then
> it would be about 7.57 ft on each side...
>
> What kind of cars are you parking in there?
Maybe RonB is a Shriner?..*S*
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:26:23 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I heat a 630 cubic foot, three car garage with 11 foot ceilings
Ron,
I think you might have dropped a zero on that cube. Wouldn't 6300 cu ft be more
reasonable for a 3 car garage???
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA
"Greg O" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Joe C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Is a 30,000 BTU heater big enough for a two car gar-shop with 10 foot
> > ceilings? This would be a ventless natural gas heater.
> >
> > OR....
> >
> > Does anyone have a link for a conversion table for BTU needed per square
> > (cubic?) foot?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Joe C.
> >
> >
>
> Depends on a few variables! How well insulated, quality of the doors and
> windows, outdoor temps for a start. But, a well insulated garage should
heat
> fine with 30,000 BTU. I have a 24'x38' garage with 10 foot ceilings that I
> heat with 50,000 BTU, insulation is good, but could be better, but the
> furnace is plenty large. North Dakota climate.
> I would avoid a ventless heater though. Our area they are not even allowed
> by code.
> Greg
>
>
Ok, yeah, I guess I could've given some more details. I live in Chicago
which means temps down to zero (occasionally, more like teens), ceiling of
the garage is drywall with 12" of insulation blown in, but the walls are
bare brick. Door is relatively well insulated. Garage dimensions are: 18'
X 21' with 9' ceilings (not 10" as in original post). I wouldn't do
ventless with kerosene or propane (do they even make them?) but how about
with natural gas?
Thanks again,
Joe
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:48:08 -0500, "Stephen M"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>First, the required BTU's are *NOT* a function of volume, it is a function
>of heat loss. Heat loss is a function of area, insulating value, and
>temperature differential with the outside.That said... It's complicated.
>
>
The procedure to measure heating cooling needs etc is I believe called
a Manuel J....Not sure but one of my sons is in the heating business
and he wipped out his clipboard and figured out what I needed in about
10 minutes....Bet a local heating/ air contractor could tell the OP
just what he needs... BUT yea you know damn well he would want to sell
you a heater...
Bob Griffiths