I just used a water-based polyurethane for the first time. (I'm no
woodworking expert. The last time I refinished anything was my
grandma's old oak table, 20 years ago. Now it's time to refinish it
and I'm using water-based this time.)
I noticed the grain popped up after the first coat of poly. I assumed
that was because the water soaked into the wood. I sanded lightly with
220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.
It looks pretty good now. Not as smooth as the old poly, but that
might have been because the old stuff has 20 years of wear. I think I
might sand it again and put a few more coats on -- any harm in that?
It seems to me the water poly isn't filling in the open oak grain as
well as the old poly did. This is a kitchen/dining table that gets
plenty of use every day, including lots of spills from my 7-yr-old. I
want to make sure the wood is appropriately protected from spills and
is easy to clean up. Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats until
it looks like the grain is filled in better?
Thanks,
Gary
remove xxx's to email
Minwax's Polycrylic is not polyurethane and is much softer than traditional
oil-based polyurethanes. Flecto's water-based Varathane is much harder than
Polycrylic. I've used many gallons of Polycrylic on cabinets because I like
the way it applies and settles, but I use Varathane on shelves for it's
toughness.
They should be compatible. Sand the Polycrylic with 320 grit, then apply a
coat or two of Varathane.
-Dave
--
http://plumpe.home.mindspring.com
email: [email protected]
ANTI-SPAM: To email, replace "lastname" with "plumpe"
-------------------------------
"Gary Fritz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wes Stewart <n7ws_@_yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What (whose) material did you use.
>
> Minwax Polycrylic, clear semi-gloss.
"Gary Fritz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
>
> I noticed the grain popped up after the first coat of poly. I assumed
> that was because the water soaked into the wood. I sanded lightly with
> 220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.
Typically when using water based products on bare wood you should lightly
wet the wood surface, let thoroughly dry, lightly sand to get rid of the
fuzzy grain that popped up and then apply the water based product.
>
> It looks pretty good now. Not as smooth as the old poly, but that
> might have been because the old stuff has 20 years of wear. I think I
> might sand it again and put a few more coats on -- any harm in that?
No harm.
[email protected] wrote:
>> On 26 Oct 2004 15:26:56 GMT, Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
>>>>> for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
>>>>> both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.
>>>
>>> Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I
>>> can fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That
>>> would NEVER stand up to my kids.
>>
>> it takes a while.
>>
>> there are two things going on. first, the water used as a carrier has
>> to evaporate. that takes anywhere from a few minutes to an hour or
>> so. at that point it's dry to the touch, can be sanded and recoated
>> and the new layer will bond chemically. second, there is a cure
>> process where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's crosslinking bit
>> and releases it's primary solvent, usually one of the slower
>> alcohols. this takes a few days, during which it becomes harder and
>> more chemically inert. once this is complete new layers no longer
>> bond chemically, and witness lines and delamination start to become
>> problems.
>>
[snip]
In my experience it took 7-21 days depending of the humidity, after that
surfaces were as good as pre-poly varnishes.
Josie
Those marks you got are from moving the sander too fast over the
surface. Slow down, and don't put apply hardly any downward pressure;
you don't want to bog (slow) down the sander.
David
Gary Fritz wrote:
> I went over it with 150 and 220, and got it to a glassy-smooth finish.
> But I apparently have troubles running my new random-orbit sander
> right.
>
> The first time I did this, I found two small spots (after staining)
> that showed corkscrew sanding marks. I sanded them out by hand and
> restained over them, and they seemed OK.
>
> This time, even though I was being extra-careful, I've got corkscrew
> marks all over the place. There must be at least 6-8 of them. And
> naturally you can't see them until you stain.
>
> Am I doing something wrong here? Should I only use the random-orbit
> sander for rough sanding, removing material, etc, and use a regular
> sander for everything else? Except most of these marks probably came
> from the 40/60 grit, didn't they??
>
> sigh
Gary Fritz wrote:
> I just used a water-based polyurethane for the first time. (I'm no
> woodworking expert. The last time I refinished anything was my
> grandma's old oak table, 20 years ago. Now it's time to refinish it
> and I'm using water-based this time.)
>
> I noticed the grain popped up after the first coat of poly. I assumed
> that was because the water soaked into the wood. I sanded lightly with
> 220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.
Good.
>
> It looks pretty good now. Not as smooth as the old poly, but that
> might have been because the old stuff has 20 years of wear. I think I
> might sand it again and put a few more coats on -- any harm in that?
Nope!
>
> It seems to me the water poly isn't filling in the open oak grain as
> well as the old poly did. This is a kitchen/dining table that gets
> plenty of use every day, including lots of spills from my 7-yr-old. I
> want to make sure the wood is appropriately protected from spills and
> is easy to clean up. Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats until
> it looks like the grain is filled in better?
You can. Usually pore/defect filling is best done before the finish is
applied, but the only real drawback for you is more work and extra coats.
Keep in mind that water based poly is nothing at all like oil based.
They have the same name bit that is about it. Water based poly is much
like latex paint, it is not a very good water barrier at all. The finish
is emusified, which basically means the dried finish is much like scales
on a fish, lots of small "plates" each overlapping each other. Oil based
poly is actually cross linked and much more water tight.
I really like water based poly however since it is very easy to apply (I
like to spray), clean up, and adds no tint to the project.
-Bruce
>
> Thanks,
> Gary
> remove xxx's to email
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Gary Fritz wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>>a cure process where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's
>>crosslinking bit and releases it's primary solvent, usually one of
>>the slower alcohols. this takes a few days, during which it
>>becomes harder and more chemically inert. once this is complete
>>new layers no longer bond chemically, and witness lines and
>>delamination start to become problems.
>
>
> Hmm. So it's been almost 24 hrs since the last coat. Am I going to
> regret it if I add another coat 24-48 hrs after the last coat?
One thing to watch for is making too many layers with a semigloss
finish. Each layer reduces the clarity and begins to hide the wood.
Usually you do all the base coats with "clear" and then do the final
satin coat with the satin or SG finish.
I've only used the minwax stuff and have applied extra coats within
minutes and sometimes weeks later. I would avoid any recoats in the 4-24
hour range since the surface is too dry for the next coat to adhere well
and too soft to properly "scuff" it up.
After 24 hours you can do whatever leveling sanding you need and apply
another coat.
-Bruce
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On 26 Oct 2004 15:26:56 GMT, Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
>>> for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
>>> both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.
>
>Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
>fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
>NEVER stand up to my kids.
it takes a while.
there are two things going on. first, the water used as a carrier has
to evaporate. that takes anywhere from a few minutes to an hour or so.
at that point it's dry to the touch, can be sanded and recoated and
the new layer will bond chemically. second, there is a cure process
where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's crosslinking bit and releases
it's primary solvent, usually one of the slower alcohols. this takes a
few days, during which it becomes harder and more chemically inert.
once this is complete new layers no longer bond chemically, and
witness lines and delamination start to become problems.
>
>I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.
>
>Gotta say though, the surface is nice and satiny. Just a few dust pips
>here and there. Not sure why it would be necessary to use the uber-
>fine sandpapers unless you wanted a glassy finish.
>
>Gary
Gary Fritz wrote:
>> "Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly for
>>> finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's both
>>> hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.
>>
>> Well that's good to hear. From what some of the other posters were
>> saying, I was starting to think it was going to dissolve the first
>> time my son spilled his juice on it. :-)
>>
[snip]
I've used it for floor cloths and was shocked at the amount of traffic
they withstood, some are 5 years old now and were used in kitchens.
Josie
The Flecto WB Varathane label states "Our hardest finish".
On 26 Oct 2004 17:03:24 GMT, Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm more concerned about the durability of the water-based. Unless it
>hardens as it cures, this will never work out. I can easily
>dent/scratch it with a fingernail.
Larry, WB finishes are designed to be recoated in a short time frame.
Failure to do so can result in finish failure (adhesion issues).
David
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On 26 Oct 2004 15:26:56 GMT, Gary Fritz <[email protected]> calmly
> ranted:
>
>
>>Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
>>>>for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
>>>>both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.
>>
>>Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
>>fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
>>NEVER stand up to my kids.
>>
>>I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.
>
>
> I make it a point NEVER to put on more than one coat of any finish
> ('cept shellac) within 24 hours. Giving the finish time to dry between
> coats is half its hardness factor, IMHO. And putting another coat
> on top of a gooey coat keeps the lower coat from hardening in a fair
> amount of time...if ever.
>
> You're using a PLASTIC finish, so moisture removal is of utmost
> importance between coats. The upper coat could keep the bottom
> coat wet forever.
>
>
Wes, the crosslinker DOES harden the finish by a noticeable amount. I'm
not sure it is the 7 times that they claim. :)
David
Wes Stewart wrote:
> On 26 Oct 2004 17:19:13 GMT, Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> |David <[email protected]> wrote:
> |> It will harden over time, Gary, but I'll bet you the contents of
> |> my shop that even 3 months from now, you will be able to scratch
> |> it with your fingernail
> |
> |Eeesh. In 3 months my kids could make a mess of my beautiful new
> |finish. How long until it's fully hardened? Hopefully it will get a
> |whole lot harder than fingernail-scratching level!!!
> |
> |I'm starting to wonder if water-based was such a good idea after all...
>
> What (whose) material did you use. As I believe David said, Enduro
> makes a crosslinking material that is claimed to improve chemical and
> abrasion resistance by a factor of seven or so when added to their
> finish.
>
> I have some of this material but have yet use it, so I can't confirm.
It will harden over time, Gary, but I'll bet you the contents of my shop
that even 3 months from now, you will be able to scratch it with your
fingernail (dragged vertically in line with the edge of the fingernail).
Moisture left on the surface for most of the day will mar the finish.
Short term spills shouldn't bother it, however.
David
Gary Fritz wrote:
> Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
>>>for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
>>>both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.
>
>
> Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
> fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
> NEVER stand up to my kids.
>
> I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.
>
> Gotta say though, the surface is nice and satiny. Just a few dust pips
> here and there. Not sure why it would be necessary to use the uber-
> fine sandpapers unless you wanted a glassy finish.
>
> Gary
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats until
> it looks like the grain is filled in better?
>
>
You would have been better off filling the with a filler or several
coats of thinned and sanded back coats of your finish. Now you don't
have much choice but to plow forward adding coats.
The only real way you are going to accomplish the task without adding
three, four, five, or six more coats is to sand what you have now all
the way down to where it is flat, note, not to the wood, just so it is
level, and add another coat or two on the sanded flat surface.
--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
[email protected]
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> MikeG <[email protected]> wrote:
> > You would have been better off filling the with a filler or
> > several coats of thinned and sanded back coats of your finish. Now
> > you don't have much choice but to plow forward adding coats.
>
> Yeah, I realize that now. The "texture" of the grain doesn't bother me
> as long as the wood is protected and the grain doesn't collect too much
> spilled milk and other gunk.
>
> > The only real way you are going to accomplish the task without
> > adding three, four, five, or six more coats is to sand what you
> > have now all the way down to where it is flat, note, not to the
> > wood, just so it is level, and add another coat or two on the
> > sanded flat surface.
>
> Can't. It's quarter-sawn oak with a very "open" grain. Some of the
> "pits" in the grain are lower than the surface of the wood.
>
> I dunno if another 3 or more coats will actually "fill in" the grain,
> but maybe it will help?
>
> I'm more concerned about the durability of the water-based. Unless it
> hardens as it cures, this will never work out. I can easily
> dent/scratch it with a fingernail.
>
> I don't suppose it's possible to put solvent-based poly on top of
> water-based poly? :-(
>
> Gary
>
Hi Gary
Of course the pits are lower then the wood, that's oaks job.
Lets look at it this way. Suppose you dug a six foot hole in your back
yard and the powers that be didn't like it and told you to get rid of
it.
Now, you decide to get rid of it by, rather then just filling it in,
putting layers of fill over the whole back yard. Yes, I know, of course
you wouldn't actually do that but bear with me.
Ok, after about the fifteenth load of fill when half the back door is
covered you find the hole is filling up. You've only got three more feet
to fill. Kind of like where you are now.
So, where do you go from there. You scrape off all the layers down the
three feet and the yard is level. Not all the way back to the original
level, just till you reach the level the hole is filled too.
If you have multiple layers of finish on now you should be able to
"scrape" that back to a level where all is flat and without hitting the
wood. If you're not comfortable with that do a couple of more layers
then sand it back. Do not expect large pores to be filled anytime soon
by just adding more coats.
As for the strength of the poly. It'll take weeks before it cures fully,
oil takes even longer. It'll help if you give each coat twice as long to
cure as recommended before adding the next. Also, depending where you
live of course, environmental factors can effect curing time. 50
degrees, which it is here right now, is not the ideal temperature for
finishes. Finishes like about seventy.
--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
[email protected]
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> OK, you had me wondering there. :-) So you're saying just smooth out
> the finish and don't worry about the pits in the open grain.
>
>
>
No Gary, what I am saying is that if you continue to just add varnish in
and attempt to level the low spots you could be at it for the next
month.
Level out the finish to the level of the low spots caused by the open
grain then add a coat or two.
--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
[email protected]
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Typically when using water based products on bare wood you should
> lightly wet the wood surface, let thoroughly dry, lightly sand to
> get rid of the fuzzy grain that popped up and then apply the water
> based product.
Hm. There was no mention on the can. They just said sand with 220
after the first coat. Hopefully that does the job as well.
"Ron Magen" <[email protected]> wrote:
> No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly for
> finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's both
> hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.
Well that's good to hear. From what some of the other posters were
saying, I was starting to think it was going to dissolve the first time
my son spilled his juice on it. :-)
> Agreed, for a faster 'dead flat' & smooth surface, you should have
> filled the pores first. However, that type of surface is not a
> necessity but more of a cosmetic choice. To fill the existing
> grain with the poly, think about 6 coats . . . as a start.
I have no problem with doing more coats. It only takes about 20-30
minutes to slap on a coat. I did 3 coats yesterday and I can easily do
another 3 today if I want to. Except 220 is the finest grit I have, so
I'll have to go out to the store to get 320/400/600.
Thanks!
Gary
Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>> No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
>> for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
>> both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.
Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
NEVER stand up to my kids.
I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.
Gotta say though, the surface is nice and satiny. Just a few dust pips
here and there. Not sure why it would be necessary to use the uber-
fine sandpapers unless you wanted a glassy finish.
Gary
MikeG <[email protected]> wrote:
> You would have been better off filling the with a filler or
> several coats of thinned and sanded back coats of your finish. Now
> you don't have much choice but to plow forward adding coats.
Yeah, I realize that now. The "texture" of the grain doesn't bother me
as long as the wood is protected and the grain doesn't collect too much
spilled milk and other gunk.
> The only real way you are going to accomplish the task without
> adding three, four, five, or six more coats is to sand what you
> have now all the way down to where it is flat, note, not to the
> wood, just so it is level, and add another coat or two on the
> sanded flat surface.
Can't. It's quarter-sawn oak with a very "open" grain. Some of the
"pits" in the grain are lower than the surface of the wood.
I dunno if another 3 or more coats will actually "fill in" the grain,
but maybe it will help?
I'm more concerned about the durability of the water-based. Unless it
hardens as it cures, this will never work out. I can easily
dent/scratch it with a fingernail.
I don't suppose it's possible to put solvent-based poly on top of
water-based poly? :-(
Gary
David <[email protected]> wrote:
> It will harden over time, Gary, but I'll bet you the contents of
> my shop that even 3 months from now, you will be able to scratch
> it with your fingernail
Eeesh. In 3 months my kids could make a mess of my beautiful new
finish. How long until it's fully hardened? Hopefully it will get a
whole lot harder than fingernail-scratching level!!!
I'm starting to wonder if water-based was such a good idea after all...
MikeG <[email protected]> wrote:
> Of course the pits are lower then the wood, that's oaks job.
OK, you had me wondering there. :-) So you're saying just smooth out
the finish and don't worry about the pits in the open grain.
> As for the strength of the poly. It'll take weeks before it cures
> fully, oil takes even longer. It'll help if you give each coat
> twice as long to cure as recommended before adding the next. Also,
> depending where you live of course, environmental factors can
> effect curing time. 50 degrees, which it is here right now, is not
> the ideal temperature for finishes. Finishes like about seventy.
I didn't give it all that much extra time, but I did it in the basement
to avoid 50deg temps. It was right around 70.
Gary
[email protected] wrote:
> a cure process where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's
> crosslinking bit and releases it's primary solvent, usually one of
> the slower alcohols. this takes a few days, during which it
> becomes harder and more chemically inert. once this is complete
> new layers no longer bond chemically, and witness lines and
> delamination start to become problems.
Hmm. So it's been almost 24 hrs since the last coat. Am I going to
regret it if I add another coat 24-48 hrs after the last coat?
"Dave Plumpe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Minwax's Polycrylic is not polyurethane and is much softer than
> traditional oil-based polyurethanes.
Gack. Great.
> Flecto's water-based
> Varathane is much harder than Polycrylic. I've used many gallons
> of Polycrylic on cabinets because I like the way it applies and
> settles, but I use Varathane on shelves for it's toughness.
>
> They should be compatible. Sand the Polycrylic with 320 grit,
> then apply a coat or two of Varathane.
Hmmm. OK. If I remember right it was a Varathane product that I used
on the table 20 years ago.
If sanding with 320 will ensure bonding to the polycrylic, then I think
I'll do that. Two coats (on top of 3 coats of the polycrylic?) will
be enough? Or should I sand down most of the polycrylic so the
varathane doesn't have a soft surface underneath it??
I definitely can't tolerate a soft finish from the polycrylic. This
table gets used 2-4 times every day and it needs to stand up to wear.
Thanks,
Gary
"Dave Plumpe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> No guarantees in life that I know of, Gary -
I guarantee this polycrylic would get trashed within a few months. :-\
I can easily gouge out pieces with my fingernail.
> Certainly, the less Polycrylic under the Varathane, the better,
> but what you suggest sounds good. If I had it to do, I'd probably
> sand down the Polycrylic until it's very thin, but not gone (I
> like the color of the first coat of Polycrylic better than
> Varathane), then apply 2-3 coats of glossy Varathane (sanding
> between coats, of course), followed by one coat of semi-gloss (I
> think that's the surface you wanted).
I sanded down the Polycrylic with 220. Much more than just "scuffing
it up," but not down to the wood. Unfortunately this means the
higher areas of the wood are glassy-smooth now, instead of having the
interesting grain pattern I had before. Oh well.
This stuff is nasty to sand, at least with a fine grit. I had to stop
every few minutes to scrape goobers of plastic off the sanding disk.
The sanding dust feels more like fine plastic balls than like the
silky-smooth dust you get from wood. Or even from the old Varathane.
I'm a bit concerned that the color seems a bit irregular now. I'm
hoping that evens out when I apply the Varathane. I really don't want
to have to start over and sand down to the wood again -- especially if
this polycrylic is as nasty to sand with 40-grit as it was with 220 --
but if that's the right thing to do, I'll do it. Better to do it now
before I put a couple of coats of Varathane on. I don't want to have
to refinish this thing again for 15-20 years so I want to do it right.
Gary
Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm a bit concerned that the color seems a bit irregular now. I'm
> hoping that evens out when I apply the Varathane.
BTW I thought I didn't get down to the wood. It still feels like
plastic in most areas. But e.g. there is a spot where I accidentally
gouged the wood with the 40-grit, and I smoothed out a depression
around it. Now that area shows a light ring around the depression.
Not sure why that would be, if I haven't touched the wood & thus the
stain. Maybe it will disappear when I apply the Varathane? Or maybe I
got down to the wood in a few spots and removed some of the stain. If
so, I probably ought to start over and take it down to the wood again.
***SIGH***
Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'm a bit concerned that the color seems a bit irregular now. I'm
>> hoping that evens out when I apply the Varathane.
>
> BTW I thought I didn't get down to the wood. It still feels like
> plastic in most areas. But e.g. there is a spot where I accidentally
> gouged the wood with the 40-grit, and I smoothed out a depression
> around it. Now that area shows a light ring around the depression.
> Not sure why that would be, if I haven't touched the wood & thus the
> stain. Maybe it will disappear when I apply the Varathane? Or maybe I
> got down to the wood in a few spots and removed some of the stain. If
> so, I probably ought to start over and take it down to the wood again.
> ***SIGH***
>
It sands better when it cures longer. The same reason you're trying to
take it off is the reason the paper clogs.
Is there any way you can just leave it alone for a couple of weeks? Use
another table, until this one cures?
The ingredient most often forgotten in the formula is patience. DAMHIKT.
Patriarch
patriarch <<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:
> Is there any way you can just leave it alone for a couple of
> weeks? Use another table, until this one cures?
Ick. We already have a temporary table but it's definitely a pain.
I'm wondering if the 40-grit will take the polycrylic off without so
much gunking-up. I might give it a try and see how it works so I can
get this project DONE and get this big honkin' table (4 leaves, 10'
long) off the floor & out of the way. If I waited a few weeks I'd at
least get it off the floor, but I'd like to finish this.
What was that you said about patience?? :-)
When I take it down to the wood again -- this time should I use a
filler before the Varathane? Or do you figure there's enough
polycrylic in the low spots to take care of it already?
OK, I got out the 60 grit (HD didn't have any 40) and took it down to
the wood. Don't know whether it was another few days of curing, or the
coarser grit, but it went much quicker and smoother than when I used
the 220. No plastic melting, etc.
So I need to do passes with 150 and 220, but does anybody have any
thoughts on wood filler? Should I just assume the deep grain pits are
full of Polycrylic and don't worry about it? Didn't worry about it
with the Polycrylic and it seemed OK.
Now I just gotta find the Varathane DWF Floors. HD didn't have it, and
neither did the local Ace hardware (except one 4oz can of gloss). They
had all kinds of Varathane products but not the DWF WB.
Gary
I went over it with 150 and 220, and got it to a glassy-smooth finish.
But I apparently have troubles running my new random-orbit sander
right.
The first time I did this, I found two small spots (after staining)
that showed corkscrew sanding marks. I sanded them out by hand and
restained over them, and they seemed OK.
This time, even though I was being extra-careful, I've got corkscrew
marks all over the place. There must be at least 6-8 of them. And
naturally you can't see them until you stain.
Am I doing something wrong here? Should I only use the random-orbit
sander for rough sanding, removing material, etc, and use a regular
sander for everything else? Except most of these marks probably came
from the 40/60 grit, didn't they??
sigh
Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I went over it with 150 and 220, and got it to a glassy-smooth finish.
> But I apparently have troubles running my new random-orbit sander
> right.
>
<snip of some additional hard lessons>
Well, after the ROS, at each grit, the procedure is to clean the surface.
Air, a soft bench brush, a shop vac, something. Then a quick wipe with a
rag, dampened with mineral spirits. That will show you what there is to
pay attention to.
With the ROS, I stop at 120 or 150. Everything thereafter is hand sanded,
with a block, to whatever the final grit is going to be. If oak, it's
often only 180, sometimes less, depending on what I'm going to do with it.
Someone said, probably more than one someone, that each grit is only to
take out the scratches from the previous grit. If you leave something
nasty from 60/80, then trying to take it out with 220 is a study in
frustration, and a waste of time.
If it were me, and it's not, I'd take a sharp card scraper, and go after
the spots with the swirls, then touch up the surface with the last grit you
used, only by hand, and with the grain, then clean and dampen the surface
one more time with the mineral spirits. That will give you the best
estimate of what the finish will look like, before you open another can of
poly.
Remember the patience part. Thanksgiving is still weeks away.
Patriarch
patriarch <<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:
> Remember the patience part. Thanksgiving is still weeks away.
:-) But I'm sick of using the folding table!!
Well, I took it down to the wood, stained it, and as I said the stain
showed up a few corkscrews. But I said screw it, I am sick of spending
up-close & personal quality time with this table. I went ahead and put
on 4 coats of the Varathane DWF, hand-sanding lightly after the 1st and
3rd coats with 320.
The Varathane didn't make the grain pop NEARLY as much as the
Polycrylic. The wood was satiny-smooth after I stained it, and the
first coat came out fairly smooth.
The corkscrews are barely visible. I have to look hard to find them.
I doubt anybody else will ever see them.
18 hrs after the last coat, I can still dent it with my fingernail, but
it's already WAY harder than the Polycrylic. I'll let it cure for a
couple of days and hope it's hard enough for kid use by then.
Thanks for all the tips, everyone!
Gary
Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> patriarch <<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:
>> Remember the patience part. Thanksgiving is still weeks away.
>
>:-) But I'm sick of using the folding table!!
>
> Well, I took it down to the wood, stained it, and as I said the stain
> showed up a few corkscrews. But I said screw it, I am sick of spending
> up-close & personal quality time with this table. I went ahead and put
> on 4 coats of the Varathane DWF, hand-sanding lightly after the 1st and
> 3rd coats with 320.
>
> The Varathane didn't make the grain pop NEARLY as much as the
> Polycrylic. The wood was satiny-smooth after I stained it, and the
> first coat came out fairly smooth.
>
> The corkscrews are barely visible. I have to look hard to find them.
> I doubt anybody else will ever see them.
>
> 18 hrs after the last coat, I can still dent it with my fingernail, but
> it's already WAY harder than the Polycrylic. I'll let it cure for a
> couple of days and hope it's hard enough for kid use by then.
>
It should cure a bit faster in the warm house, anyway.
I have a table that sits in our dining area, that my parents bought when
they bought a new home in 1955. The top has needed refinishing since about
1960. We keep a table cloth on it, and enjoy the best family dinners
around that table. I don't really know when I'll get around to building a
'fancy' one. Grandkids are too much fun.
Although I DID have a brief conversation with my daughter-in-law over the
wisdom of someone buying the kid a maple mallet and tool bench, and then
bringing same to my house. It left.
Collect memories.
Patriarch
patriarch <<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:
> It should cure a bit faster in the warm house, anyway.
I let it cure for 3 days, then put it into service. We're using
placemats for now to reduce wear & tear until it can cure for a few
weeks. It's already pretty hard. The surface is much smoother and
easier to clean than the old flaking-off poly, and it looks beautiful.
> I have a table that sits in our dining area, that my parents
> bought when they bought a new home in 1955. The top has needed
> refinishing since about 1960. We keep a table cloth on it, and
> enjoy the best family dinners around that table.
This table is too pretty to cover up. Big family dinners are a rarity,
unfortunately, since both sides of our family live 800-900 mi away.
But we've had as many as 15 friends around the table for holiday
feasts. Now it's in good shape to do that again. Unfortunately
everybody already had out-of-town plans for Thanksgiving, ohwell...
Gary
Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
> This table is too pretty to cover up. Big family dinners are a rarity,
> unfortunately, since both sides of our family live 800-900 mi away.
> But we've had as many as 15 friends around the table for holiday
> feasts. Now it's in good shape to do that again. Unfortunately
> everybody already had out-of-town plans for Thanksgiving, ohwell...
>
So make your own holiday! A quiet feast in mid to late January is often
welcome.
Glad you were successful in your refinishing quest.
Patriarch
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:03:15 -0700, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>On 26 Oct 2004 15:26:56 GMT, Gary Fritz <[email protected]> calmly
>ranted:
>
>>Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
>>>> for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
>>>> both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.
>>
>>Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
>>fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
>>NEVER stand up to my kids.
>>
>>I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.
>
>I make it a point NEVER to put on more than one coat of any finish
>('cept shellac) within 24 hours. Giving the finish time to dry between
>coats is half its hardness factor, IMHO. And putting another coat
>on top of a gooey coat keeps the lower coat from hardening in a fair
>amount of time...if ever.
>
>You're using a PLASTIC finish, so moisture removal is of utmost
>importance between coats. The upper coat could keep the bottom
>coat wet forever.
acrylic polyurethanes are an exception to that rule. they do their
final cure mostly by crosslinking rather than by drying. you're
supposed to recoat soon after they are dry to touch. otherwise the
layers won't bond well.
Gary Fritz wrote:
>> I went over it with 150 and 220, and got it to a glassy-smooth
>> finish. But I apparently have troubles running my new random-orbit
>> sander right.
>>
>> The first time I did this, I found two small spots (after staining)
>> that showed corkscrew sanding marks. I sanded them out by hand and
>> restained over them, and they seemed OK.
>>
>> This time, even though I was being extra-careful, I've got corkscrew
>> marks all over the place. There must be at least 6-8 of them. And
>> naturally you can't see them until you stain.
>>
>> Am I doing something wrong here? Should I only use the random-orbit
>> sander for rough sanding, removing material, etc, and use a regular
>> sander for everything else? Except most of these marks probably came
>> from the 40/60 grit, didn't they??
>>
>> sigh
This is why I gave up on the random orbital sanders - seemed like maybe
some spot got clogged and *that* made the marks? Wasn't sure and the marks
really stand out. I've noticed the same in some craft show work.
Josie
On 26 Oct 2004 21:44:25 GMT, Gary Fritz <[email protected]> calmly
ranted:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> a cure process where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's
>> crosslinking bit and releases it's primary solvent, usually one of
>> the slower alcohols. this takes a few days, during which it
>> becomes harder and more chemically inert. once this is complete
>> new layers no longer bond chemically, and witness lines and
>> delamination start to become problems.
>
>Hmm. So it's been almost 24 hrs since the last coat. Am I going to
>regret it if I add another coat 24-48 hrs after the last coat?
Read the can and follow their suggestions unless you have
personal experience with the product and know what you can
get away with.
--
"Excess regulation and government spending destroy jobs and increase
unemployment. Every regulator we fire results in the creation of over
150 new jobs, enough to hire the ex-regulator, the unemployed, and
the able-bodied poor." -Michael Badnarik
VOTE LIBERTARIAN ON NOVEMBER 2, 2004 OR YOU WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING.
If you put the first coat on too thick that might have popped the grain.
What brand are you using? Sand to 22/330 between coats.
--
Rumpty
Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Gary Fritz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Typically when using water based products on bare wood you should
> > lightly wet the wood surface, let thoroughly dry, lightly sand to
> > get rid of the fuzzy grain that popped up and then apply the water
> > based product.
>
> Hm. There was no mention on the can. They just said sand with 220
> after the first coat. Hopefully that does the job as well.
Gary, as much as I like applying WB poly, it wouldn't be my finish of
choice for a well used dining room tabletop. You can increase the
durability (water resistance, abrasion resistance) of Enduro polys by
adding Crosslinker. It is expensive, at $30 for a small bottle, but it
goes a long way.
Another option would be to use a more durable finish such as C-V.
David
Gary Fritz wrote:
> I just used a water-based polyurethane for the first time. (I'm no
> woodworking expert. The last time I refinished anything was my
> grandma's old oak table, 20 years ago. Now it's time to refinish it
> and I'm using water-based this time.)
>
> I noticed the grain popped up after the first coat of poly. I assumed
> that was because the water soaked into the wood. I sanded lightly with
> 220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.
>
> It looks pretty good now. Not as smooth as the old poly, but that
> might have been because the old stuff has 20 years of wear. I think I
> might sand it again and put a few more coats on -- any harm in that?
>
> It seems to me the water poly isn't filling in the open oak grain as
> well as the old poly did. This is a kitchen/dining table that gets
> plenty of use every day, including lots of spills from my 7-yr-old. I
> want to make sure the wood is appropriately protected from spills and
> is easy to clean up. Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats until
> it looks like the grain is filled in better?
>
> Thanks,
> Gary
> remove xxx's to email
Gary,
No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly for finishing
a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's both hard and relatively
impervious to liquids & damage.
Agreed, for a faster 'dead flat' & smooth surface, you should have filled
the pores first. However, that type of surface is not a necessity but more
of a cosmetic choice. To fill the existing grain with the poly, think about
6 coats . . . as a start. {Bare in mind that I consider 6 coats of varnish,
etc. as normal !!}. Sand with progressively finer grits between coats. Use
220 for the first AND second, then 320, 400, and 600.
Note, that after the 2nd or 3rd coat the surface is sealed. Even if you see
the little 'dimples' of the pores, they have sufficient finish in them to
repel spills. Therefore, if you can live with the 'look', and still have it
after 6 coats . . . don't worry about it.
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
"Gary Fritz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I just used a water-based polyurethane for the first time. (I'm no
> woodworking expert. The last time I refinished anything was my
> grandma's old oak table, 20 years ago. Now it's time to refinish it
> and I'm using water-based this time.)
>
SNIP
I sanded lightly with 220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.
>
> It looks pretty good now. . . .I think I might sand it again and put a few
more coats on -- >
> It seems to me the water poly isn't filling in the open oak grain . . .
This is a kitchen/dining table that gets plenty of use every day, including
lots of spills from my 7-yr-old. I
> want to make sure the wood is appropriately protected from spills and
> is easy to clean up. Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats
On 26 Oct 2004 17:19:13 GMT, Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
|David <[email protected]> wrote:
|> It will harden over time, Gary, but I'll bet you the contents of
|> my shop that even 3 months from now, you will be able to scratch
|> it with your fingernail
|
|Eeesh. In 3 months my kids could make a mess of my beautiful new
|finish. How long until it's fully hardened? Hopefully it will get a
|whole lot harder than fingernail-scratching level!!!
|
|I'm starting to wonder if water-based was such a good idea after all...
What (whose) material did you use. As I believe David said, Enduro
makes a crosslinking material that is claimed to improve chemical and
abrasion resistance by a factor of seven or so when added to their
finish.
I have some of this material but have yet use it, so I can't confirm.
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:01:27 -0600, BruceR <[email protected]> wrote:
>Gary Fritz wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>a cure process where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's
>>>crosslinking bit and releases it's primary solvent, usually one of
>>>the slower alcohols. this takes a few days, during which it
>>>becomes harder and more chemically inert. once this is complete
>>>new layers no longer bond chemically, and witness lines and
>>>delamination start to become problems.
>>
>>
>> Hmm. So it's been almost 24 hrs since the last coat. Am I going to
>> regret it if I add another coat 24-48 hrs after the last coat?
depends on the product. generally they recommend recoating pretty soon
after it's dry to the touch. what's it say on the can?
>
>One thing to watch for is making too many layers with a semigloss
>finish. Each layer reduces the clarity and begins to hide the wood.
depends on the product. some MFRs make satin by adding white powders
to the finish. they cloud with build. some make satin other ways.
enduro products for instance don't cloud with build.
>Usually you do all the base coats with "clear" and then do the final
>satin coat with the satin or SG finish.
>I've only used the minwax stuff and have applied extra coats within
>minutes and sometimes weeks later. I would avoid any recoats in the 4-24
>hour range since the surface is too dry for the next coat to adhere well
>and too soft to properly "scuff" it up.
>After 24 hours you can do whatever leveling sanding you need and apply
>another coat.
>
>-Bruce
>
>
>
>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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No guarantees in life that I know of, Gary - sometimes we just have to take
chances. I THINK Varathane should bond well to scuffed-up Polycrylic, but
can't remember ever actually doing that.
Certainly, the less Polycrylic under the Varathane, the better, but what you
suggest sounds good. If I had it to do, I'd probably sand down the
Polycrylic until it's very thin, but not gone (I like the color of the first
coat of Polycrylic better than Varathane), then apply 2-3 coats of glossy
Varathane (sanding between coats, of course), followed by one coat of
semi-gloss (I think that's the surface you wanted). Generally, you want to
use gloss for all but the last coat because it's much clearer than
semi-gloss or flat, but it depends on whether you think of your table as
"fine furniture". The Varathane I use is for floors, specifically:
"Varathane Crystal Clear Waterborne Diamond Wood Finish", "Floors".
-Dave
--
http://plumpe.home.mindspring.com
email: [email protected]
ANTI-SPAM: To email, replace "lastname" with "plumpe"
-----------------------------------
"Gary Fritz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Dave Plumpe" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Minwax's Polycrylic is not polyurethane and is much softer than
>> traditional oil-based polyurethanes.
>
> Gack. Great.
>
>> Flecto's water-based
>> Varathane is much harder than Polycrylic. I've used many gallons
>> of Polycrylic on cabinets because I like the way it applies and
>> settles, but I use Varathane on shelves for it's toughness.
>>
>> They should be compatible. Sand the Polycrylic with 320 grit,
>> then apply a coat or two of Varathane.
>
> Hmmm. OK. If I remember right it was a Varathane product that I used
> on the table 20 years ago.
>
> If sanding with 320 will ensure bonding to the polycrylic, then I think
> I'll do that. Two coats (on top of 3 coats of the polycrylic?) will
> be enough? Or should I sand down most of the polycrylic so the
> varathane doesn't have a soft surface underneath it??
>
> I definitely can't tolerate a soft finish from the polycrylic. This
> table gets used 2-4 times every day and it needs to stand up to wear.
>
> Thanks,
> Gary
On 26 Oct 2004 15:26:56 GMT, Gary Fritz <[email protected]> calmly
ranted:
>Gary Fritz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
>>> for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
>>> both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.
>
>Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
>fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
>NEVER stand up to my kids.
>
>I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.
I make it a point NEVER to put on more than one coat of any finish
('cept shellac) within 24 hours. Giving the finish time to dry between
coats is half its hardness factor, IMHO. And putting another coat
on top of a gooey coat keeps the lower coat from hardening in a fair
amount of time...if ever.
You're using a PLASTIC finish, so moisture removal is of utmost
importance between coats. The upper coat could keep the bottom
coat wet forever.
--
"Excess regulation and government spending destroy jobs and increase
unemployment. Every regulator we fire results in the creation of over
150 new jobs, enough to hire the ex-regulator, the unemployed, and
the able-bodied poor." -Michael Badnarik
VOTE LIBERTARIAN ON NOVEMBER 2, 2004 OR YOU WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING.