I recently finished building a QS White Oak bench, shelves, and
surrouding panelling for our mudroom entrance.
My goals in finishing are:
- I would like to darken the wood (a little) and bring out more of the
natural color, beauty, and flecking of the QS White Oak
- I want to give it a strong protective coat from the abuse
and wetness that one can get in a mudroom.
I am at best a novice at finishing having only used basic Home Depot
stains & polys.
So:
- How fine should I sand?
Is 220 enough?
Can I use my ROS the whole way or should I switch to by hand at
some point?
- Do I need to seal or fill pores in White Oak before?
If so, what products do you recommend?
- What type of stain works best on White Oak?
Are gel stains better than "normal" oil-based stains?
Any suggestions on brand or color to give it a little deeper &
warmer natural oak color?
- What type of final finish?
Poly? Shellac? other?
What sheen is typically best for bench or panelling? (I'm
thinking maybe satin???)
How many coats?
I know some of the answers are subjective, but I would love to get
some expert opinions.
On May 19, 12:57 pm, depictureboy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Should I generally thin Poly before I apply it with a brush?
I don't. To me, poly is thin enough out of the can to work fine with
a brush. To see what works best with the finish you have chosen, put
a little in a separate container and brush out enough of it to see how
it lays out, and how easy it is to get a smooth finish.
Now thin the remaining material in your container, no more than 10% by
volume. Test it against your previous results.
Allow both sample to dry, and pick which sample you like best, thinned
or unthinned.
>How about
> wood conditioner?
Wood conditiner won't hurt, and it can reduce brush drag. But for me,
wood conditioner is best for when you are staining soft woods as it
allows the stain to soak in more evenly.
For a good grip, I would use a sanding sealer like the Zinsser
product. It is "white" or dewaxed sellac, not a regular shellac. You
can top coat that brand of sanding sealer very quickly, and it is easy
to apply.
>I am totaly new to finishing, and am planning on
> finishing my garage workshop projects to get the hang for it. I
> realize its not the Best medium, but any practice is good practice...
Absolutely.
> I bought some minwax polyshades satin and wood conditioner(its all
> dimensional lumber, I still want it to look good when I am done)
Polyshades is a pretty good product. Be careful, as you can't touch
it up - the toner is in the blend of poly. And uneven application can
result in a blotchy finish, or one that has "holidays".
Practice is the key....
Don't worry about using the stuff from the big box. Most of it is
geared towards the occasional user and is quite forgiving. Buy it,
try it, and learn with it.
Robert
On Mon, 19 May 2008 04:50:51 GMT, blueman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Should I worry about this or can I use 0000 steel wool as you
>suggested?
With what finish? I've only had problems with steel wool with water
base.
I've heard rumors that steel wool can react with tannic acid, but I
don't use steel wool on raw wood, only over top coats. If you're
worried, use 400 grit and a felt block.
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
blueman wrote:
> I recently finished building a QS White Oak bench, shelves, and
> surrouding panelling for our mudroom entrance.
>
> My goals in finishing are:
> - I would like to darken the wood (a little) and bring out more of the
> natural color, beauty, and flecking of the QS White Oak
>
> - I want to give it a strong protective coat from the abuse
> and wetness that one can get in a mudroom.
>
> I am at best a novice at finishing having only used basic Home Depot
> stains & polys.
>
> So:
> - How fine should I sand?
> Is 220 enough?
> Can I use my ROS the whole way or should I switch to by hand at
> some point?
>
> - Do I need to seal or fill pores in White Oak before?
> If so, what products do you recommend?
>
> - What type of stain works best on White Oak?
> Are gel stains better than "normal" oil-based stains?
> Any suggestions on brand or color to give it a little deeper &
> warmer natural oak color?
>
> - What type of final finish?
> Poly? Shellac? other?
> What sheen is typically best for bench or panelling? (I'm
> thinking maybe satin???)
> How many coats?
>
> I know some of the answers are subjective, but I would love to get
> some expert opinions.
The 220 is fine but I like to do a final sanding by hand going straight
with the grain. If you want a perfectly smooth surface then you need to
fill the grain. A dye stain from Mohawk will really make it come alive,
go with a light color. Go with a semi gloss poly, three thin coats
applied within a couple hours of each other to keep them married together.
On May 19, 12:06=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On May 19, 12:04 am, blueman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > B A R R Y <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > > I'd then wipe on 3-5 coats of Minwax wipe-on poly...
>
> A great suggestion.
>
> > Also, when I was at Rockler today, the manager suggested some
> > alternative poly brands.
>
> > - Normal oil-based brush-on Minwax (but he discourage this as being a "c=
heap"
> > brand and warned that brush-on will be harder to apply)
>
> Not to disparage the guys at Rockler, but that was a really stupid
> comment. =A0Although I haven't used it for a few years, the Minwax
> products are mostly pretty good, and some really good.
>
> As a matter of fact, I have a desk that I finished years ago by
> padding on Minwax poly and the surface had been hard, durable,
> cleanable and all around 100% satisfactory.
>
> One more thing on the Minwax, I remember about 18 months ago or so FWW
> tested the most common polys from different stores including the
> General finish, and the Minwax out performed it. =A0In the finishing
> community, there was a lot of nasty discussion from that report, but
> they had their stats t back it up.
>
> > - General Finishes Arm-R-Seal Urethane Topcoat (a wipe one product)
> > which he said has better "oils" and will go on better and give a
> > "richer" finish than the normal brush-on Minwax product.
>
> Not true. =A0What are "better oils"? =A0The composition of the product
> will make a different, but like it or not, they are all pretty much
> the same stuff with a different ratio/mixture of the same chemicals
> and resins.
>
> > - Rockler brand Polyurethane Gel Finish -- he said that this product
> > =A0 is easiest to apply since you just wipe up the excess. He also
> > =A0 thought that since it is thicker it might need fewer coats.
>
> Wipe on finishes have come a long way. =A0Some are great, and they have
> a niche to fill, which they do well. =A0 But if you are doing a big
> project like a staircase, a large built in bookshelf/TV center, etc.,
> they are not practical. =A0I don't like to put 53 coats of anything on
> something to get a good finish.
>
> When you wipe on, then wipe off, you leave little finish. =A0You can do
> this many, many times to get a good, durable finish that will stand up
> for years in something like a mudroom entry way. =A0If this was a
> dresser, that would be something different. =A0But you need to wind up
> with something like a 4 -5 mill final finish on those mudroom surfaces
> to stand up to punishment. =A0I don't have any idea how much wipe on
> product it takes to get there...
>
> =A0You will get better advice here than you will down in the hardware
> store. =A0 Don't be buffaloed by someone that may know less than you do
> about the subject.
>
> Poly is easy to brush as it has a long lay out time. =A0Like DJ, I don't
> fool with the quick dry stuff. =A0I usually recoat in about 8 - 10 hours
> when I brush. =A0I don't even scuff or do any of the other things unless
> I am trying to work with a blemish (read: drip, bug, nib, etc.).
>
> Don't make it harder than it is.
>
> You might want to make yourself a test box of the same material and
> try out different finishes and see which one you find the best for
> your own level of finishing expertise.
>
> Robert
Should I generally thin Poly before I apply it with a brush? How about
wood conditioner? I am totaly new to finishing, and am planning on
finishing my garage workshop projects to get the hang for it. I
realize its not the Best medium, but any practice is good practice...
I bought some minwax polyshades satin and wood conditioner(its all
dimensional lumber, I still want it to look good when I am done)
On Sat, 17 May 2008 02:47:38 GMT, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>When you finish the drawer fronts with the dovetail do you do them when they
>are together or apart?
Together and apart, or a combo! <G> Depends on the project...
Sometimes, the finishing process needs to be split into coloring and
coating stages. In this case, I preferred to color individually, and
coat as one.
In this case, I wanted the drawer sides and insides finished, so
here's what I did:
- I rubbed the QSWO portions with Robert's Blend for color, assembled
the drawer (minus the bottom) with glue, and sprayed the assembly with
Ultrastar
- I sprayed the bottoms alone, then installed them into grooves, with
two small screws up from the bottom into the drawer backs.
Spraying the drawers without bottoms cuts way down on bounce-back and
associated orange peel.
> If apart does the finish cause the glue not to
>stick?
It probably would. Blue masking tape is your friend.
>I'm a little new to finishing and dovetails but getting ready to
>attempt it. Or is this the result of the different wood species and the end
>grain of the dovetail standing out??
I try to make my dovetails (regardless of method) so the pins are
slightly (1/64"-1/32") proud, and easily trainable with a sharp plane.
This allows for a nice final fit, and prevents the alternative of
having to plane down an entire drawer side, due to too shallow cuts
for the tails. When all that is done, finishing after assembly makes
sense. So this would be my most common choice.
Now, for some other views...
For dressers and clothing chests, I don't finish drawer sides and
interiors at all. I like to use pine or cedar sides, and BB ply
bottoms, and put absolutely nothing on them. Here, I'd color the
fronts if necessary, run a strip of blue tape along the back edge of
the DT's (where the "depth scribe" lands when hand cutting) and finish
the front
You'd also not want to pre-finish drawer front edges and ends that
might need to be planed for final fitting to an opening.
If you look closely at antiques, it's not uncommon to see a stripe of
stain along the dovetails where the front was colored after
attachment. This is also common where a colored oil was used to
finish the fronts after assembly.
So, the final answer is... it's up to you! As usual in woodworking,
there are 15 paths to a final result.
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
B A R R Y wrote:
> On Sat, 17 May 2008 02:47:38 GMT, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>When you finish the drawer fronts with the dovetail do you do them when
>>they are together or apart?
>
> Together and apart, or a combo! <G> Depends on the project...
>
> Sometimes, the finishing process needs to be split into coloring and
> coating stages. In this case, I preferred to color individually, and
> coat as one.
>
> In this case, I wanted the drawer sides and insides finished, so
> here's what I did:
>
> - I rubbed the QSWO portions with Robert's Blend for color, assembled
> the drawer (minus the bottom) with glue, and sprayed the assembly with
> Ultrastar
>
> - I sprayed the bottoms alone, then installed them into grooves, with
> two small screws up from the bottom into the drawer backs.
>
> Spraying the drawers without bottoms cuts way down on bounce-back and
> associated orange peel.
>
>> If apart does the finish cause the glue not to
>>stick?
>
> It probably would. Blue masking tape is your friend.
>
>>I'm a little new to finishing and dovetails but getting ready to
>>attempt it. Or is this the result of the different wood species and the
>>end grain of the dovetail standing out??
>
> I try to make my dovetails (regardless of method) so the pins are
> slightly (1/64"-1/32") proud, and easily trainable with a sharp plane.
> This allows for a nice final fit, and prevents the alternative of
> having to plane down an entire drawer side, due to too shallow cuts
> for the tails. When all that is done, finishing after assembly makes
> sense. So this would be my most common choice.
And makes sense.
>
> Now, for some other views...
>
> For dressers and clothing chests, I don't finish drawer sides and
> interiors at all. I like to use pine or cedar sides, and BB ply
> bottoms, and put absolutely nothing on them. Here, I'd color the
> fronts if necessary, run a strip of blue tape along the back edge of
> the DT's (where the "depth scribe" lands when hand cutting) and finish
> the front
>
> You'd also not want to pre-finish drawer front edges and ends that
> might need to be planed for final fitting to an opening.
>
> If you look closely at antiques, it's not uncommon to see a stripe of
> stain along the dovetails where the front was colored after
> attachment. This is also common where a colored oil was used to
> finish the fronts after assembly.
Ive seen that.
>
> So, the final answer is... it's up to you! As usual in woodworking,
> there are 15 paths to a final result.
Just like most things in life. I appriciate the time. Thanks, post worth
saving for later review. Well, time to dive in.
Thanks again
Rich
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> ** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
> ---------------------------------------------
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
On May 16, 8:16 pm, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
SNIP of great guidance...
> What "Robert's Blend" looks like on white oak, with a semi-gloss
> lacquer:
> <http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html>
Hey, thanks for the tip of the hat!
Barry - I thought you would get a charge out of this. I recently got
down to the bottom of my KK stuff, and decided to see how well it
would brush. In all this time, I have never tried it!
Nor will I again. It was such an overwhelming disaster that I finally
stopped putting it on as I had the worst mess I have ever made when
finishing. It was just a test, no harm/no foul, but WOW... when Dave
said it definitely wasn't brushing lacquer - HE WASN'T KIDDING!
Seriously, what a mess. But since it was on scrap, it still makes me
laugh.
Robert
On May 19, 12:04 am, blueman <[email protected]> wrote:
> B A R R Y <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > I'd then wipe on 3-5 coats of Minwax wipe-on poly...
A great suggestion.
> Also, when I was at Rockler today, the manager suggested some
> alternative poly brands.
>
> - Normal oil-based brush-on Minwax (but he discourage this as being a "cheap"
> brand and warned that brush-on will be harder to apply)
Not to disparage the guys at Rockler, but that was a really stupid
comment. Although I haven't used it for a few years, the Minwax
products are mostly pretty good, and some really good.
As a matter of fact, I have a desk that I finished years ago by
padding on Minwax poly and the surface had been hard, durable,
cleanable and all around 100% satisfactory.
One more thing on the Minwax, I remember about 18 months ago or so FWW
tested the most common polys from different stores including the
General finish, and the Minwax out performed it. In the finishing
community, there was a lot of nasty discussion from that report, but
they had their stats t back it up.
> - General Finishes Arm-R-Seal Urethane Topcoat (a wipe one product)
> which he said has better "oils" and will go on better and give a
> "richer" finish than the normal brush-on Minwax product.
Not true. What are "better oils"? The composition of the product
will make a different, but like it or not, they are all pretty much
the same stuff with a different ratio/mixture of the same chemicals
and resins.
> - Rockler brand Polyurethane Gel Finish -- he said that this product
> is easiest to apply since you just wipe up the excess. He also
> thought that since it is thicker it might need fewer coats.
Wipe on finishes have come a long way. Some are great, and they have
a niche to fill, which they do well. But if you are doing a big
project like a staircase, a large built in bookshelf/TV center, etc.,
they are not practical. I don't like to put 53 coats of anything on
something to get a good finish.
When you wipe on, then wipe off, you leave little finish. You can do
this many, many times to get a good, durable finish that will stand up
for years in something like a mudroom entry way. If this was a
dresser, that would be something different. But you need to wind up
with something like a 4 -5 mill final finish on those mudroom surfaces
to stand up to punishment. I don't have any idea how much wipe on
product it takes to get there...
You will get better advice here than you will down in the hardware
store. Don't be buffaloed by someone that may know less than you do
about the subject.
Poly is easy to brush as it has a long lay out time. Like DJ, I don't
fool with the quick dry stuff. I usually recoat in about 8 - 10 hours
when I brush. I don't even scuff or do any of the other things unless
I am trying to work with a blemish (read: drip, bug, nib, etc.).
Don't make it harder than it is.
You might want to make yourself a test box of the same material and
try out different finishes and see which one you find the best for
your own level of finishing expertise.
Robert
On Sat, 17 May 2008 08:15:13 -0400, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
>
>I try to make my dovetails (regardless of method) so the pins are
>slightly (1/64"-1/32") proud, and easily trainable with a sharp plane.
That's "TRIMMABLE"!
Damn spell check...
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
B A R R Y wrote:
>
> What "Robert's Blend" looks like on white oak, with a semi-gloss
> lacquer:
> <http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html>
>
> The drawer sides are maple, with Ultrastar only, for a comparison.
> Note the warm color of the oak. I normally prefer dull lacquer, but
> the gloss was required to match another item.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> ** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
> ---------------------------------------------
When you finish the drawer fronts with the dovetail do you do them when they
are together or apart? If apart does the finish cause the glue not to
stick? I'm a little new to finishing and dovetails but getting ready to
attempt it. Or is this the result of the different wood species and the end
grain of the dovetail standing out??
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
On Mon, 19 May 2008 05:04:38 GMT, blueman <[email protected]> wrote:
>- General Finishes Arm-R-Seal Urethane Topcoat (a wipe one product)
>which he said has better "oils" and will go on better and give a
>"richer" finish than the normal brush-on Minwax product.
GF makes good stuff, and has never disappointed me.
>
>- Rockler brand Polyurethane Gel Finish -- he said that this product
> is easiest to apply since you just wipe up the excess. He also
> thought that since it is thicker it might need fewer coats.
I have no experience with this.
>Also, the sales person mentioned two alternatives for getting to a
>Satin finish:
> - Use satin on all coats
> - Use gloss on all but the final coat which is Satin - he thought
> this might be better since repeated satin coats may make the
> finish less clear
Try a sample board, and see if you can see the difference. I did,
and I couldn't on white oak.
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
On Sun, 18 May 2008 06:58:44 GMT, blueman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Just a follow-up question on the poly topcoats:
>What are your thoughts about Minwax Oil vs. Water-based poly when
>doing a wipe on coat? (environmental issues aside)
I much prefer oil based for wiping on. The handling and drying time
of the oil based finish is easily adjusted with solvent. Water based
products are complex and not easy to adjust.
> The water-based dries faster (and presumably will have fewer dust
> problems) but will it dry too fast?
Possibly, along with an "cold" color. The cooler color of home center
WB polyurethanes is a plus on some very white woods, but definitely
not on white oak. Most consumer WB products will also raise the grain
significantly.
> Will water-based be as durable and rich as a traditional
> oil-based poly?
Between those two products:
Durability? - probably
Rich color? - no
The ML Campbell WB products I use are not sold in home centers and are
designed to be sprayed straight from the container, after stirring and
straining.
I will often use a shellac based sanding sealer (Seal Coat) to
minimize grain raising, which is much less to start with than consumer
products, and sometimes add additional ambering dye (Trans Tint Honey
Amber). Steel wool needs to be replaced with the synthetic version
if water is involved, so remnants don't create rusty or black stains.
Most oil based products are also slightly clearer once cured.
While they have come a long way, I have not yet met a consumer WB
product I felt I could trust. I can do nice finishes with consumer
solvent based products, it just takes more time and I have to watch
for occasional product inconsistencies.
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
"blueman" wrote
> - How fine should I sand?
> Is 220 enough?
> Can I use my ROS the whole way or should I switch to by hand at
> some point?
IME, and when applying stain and a film finish to a project, going finer
than 180 is not even necessary, and may not even be desirable due less
absorption/penetration of the pigments when sanded at higher grits.
That said, a _light_ hand sanding with 220 to ease the edges usually won't
have that much impact on absorption/pigment penetration, IME.
When using an oil/poly finish, a la Sam Maloof, is about the only time I go
above 220, usually to 320... YMMV.
As always, experiment with the stain of your choice on scraps as you may
find that the final sanding grit can have an impact on the darkness/depth of
color, or the number of coats you will need to get you where you want to be.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Thu, 22 May 2008 01:52:44 GMT, blueman <[email protected]> wrote:
>B A R R Y <[email protected]> writes:
>> I only fill White Oak pores on table tops, and sometimes, I don't even
>> do those.
>
>I noticed after applying a gel stain, that the pores (actually
>streaks) stain very dark and really stand out. This occured
>predominantly on the QS white oak plywood panels rather than on the
>solid QS white oak trim.
>
>I was able to tone down the dark streaks, by applying thinned down
>wunderfill wood fill and then sanding it off prior to applying the gel
>stain.
>
>- First, is this a common occurence with the QS veneer plywood causing
> prominent streaks?
>
>- Second, is filling the best way to resolve this or would some type of
> sealer be better/easier?
>
>- Finally, if filling is best, is Wunderfill wood fill (slightly watered
> down per the instructions) a good product or are there better ones for
> the job?
>
Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with gel stain on white oak ply or
Wunderfill. In fact, I don't often use pigment stains on QSWO.
I usually use plain old boiled linseed oil (in "Robert's Blend") or a
light to medium dye stain (Solar Lux, Lockwood, Trans-Tint. etc...) to
pop the ray flecks. When requested, I'll use a dark glaze before the
clear coats, or a dark wax after the clear coats, to accentuate pores.
As a general rule, plywood will usually take stain differently than
the solid version of the same wood. It's always a good idea to make
test panels (document the details on the back), to see if you need to
adjust wait before wipe times or if a spit or sealer coat is needed.
You can also sand the plywood a grit or two higher to limit the way it
holds pigment. The sanding trick also works on end grain.
I try not to get too heavy with the sealer coats, as I like the pores
of oaks to slightly show in most cases, vs. a "plastized" look.
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
B A R R Y <[email protected]> writes:
...
> I'd then wipe on 3-5 coats of Minwax wipe-on poly, lightly scuffing
> with 0000 steel wool between coats. Use the steel wool properly by
> unfolding it and orienting the wires ACROSS your rubbing direction.
>
When I was at Rockler today, the guy there warned that Steel wool
may cause some reaction with White Oak and suggested using a synthetic
fine abrasive product instead.
Should I worry about this or can I use 0000 steel wool as you
suggested?
Thanks,
Jeff
B A R R Y <[email protected]> writes:
> With your equipment and experience:
>
> I'd stop @ 150 with the ROS, then hand sand WITH THE GRAIN with 150 on
> a hard felt or rubber block. Woodcraft sells really nice hard felt
> sanding blocks for about $5.
>
> Next, I'd wipe the entire item down with "Robert's Blend", which is
> simply equal amounts of Seal Coat shellac, Boiled Linseed Oil, and
> genuine (pine base) turpentine. Seal Coat is dewaxed shellac, as is
> the dewaxed flake you mix yourself, Zinnser "Clear" and "Amber" have
> wax, and are not suitable.
>
> I'd then wipe on 3-5 coats of Minwax wipe-on poly, lightly scuffing
> with 0000 steel wool between coats. Use the steel wool properly by
> unfolding it and orienting the wires ACROSS your rubbing direction.
>
> Since you're going to do this entire process on a scrap board before
> you'll do the whole item (hint... hint... <G>) do 1/2 of the scrap
> with satin and the other with gloss, and decide what YOU like. You
> can also mix satin and gloss together to create sheens in between.
>
> I only fill White Oak pores on table tops, and sometimes, I don't even
> do those.
>
> With my equipment and experience, I'd spray it with ML Campbell
> Ultrastar or DuraVar, or "Kwick Kleen Fast Dry Poly, in place of the
> wiped poly. This is mainly for speed and the fast dry time of tehse
> products that doesn't allow dust to stick.
>
> What "Robert's Blend" looks like on white oak, with a semi-gloss
> lacquer:
> <http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html>
>
> The drawer sides are maple, with Ultrastar only, for a comparison.
> Note the warm color of the oak. I normally prefer dull lacquer, but
> the gloss was required to match another item.
>
Barry,
Thanks very much for the detailed advice.
Just a follow-up question on the poly topcoats:
What are your thoughts about Minwax Oil vs. Water-based poly when
doing a wipe on coat? (environmental issues aside)
The water-based dries faster (and presumably will have fewer dust
problems) but will it dry too fast?
Will water-based be as durable and rich as a traditional
oil-based poly?
B A R R Y <[email protected]> writes:
> I only fill White Oak pores on table tops, and sometimes, I don't even
> do those.
I noticed after applying a gel stain, that the pores (actually
streaks) stain very dark and really stand out. This occured
predominantly on the QS white oak plywood panels rather than on the
solid QS white oak trim.
I was able to tone down the dark streaks, by applying thinned down
wunderfill wood fill and then sanding it off prior to applying the gel
stain.
- First, is this a common occurence with the QS veneer plywood causing
prominent streaks?
- Second, is filling the best way to resolve this or would some type of
sealer be better/easier?
- Finally, if filling is best, is Wunderfill wood fill (slightly watered
down per the instructions) a good product or are there better ones for
the job?
Thanks,
Jeff
B A R R Y <[email protected]> writes:
> I'd then wipe on 3-5 coats of Minwax wipe-on poly...
Also, when I was at Rockler today, the manager suggested some
alternative poly brands.
- Normal oil-based brush-on Minwax (but he discourage this as being a "cheap"
brand and warned that brush-on will be harder to apply)
- General Finishes Arm-R-Seal Urethane Topcoat (a wipe one product)
which he said has better "oils" and will go on better and give a
"richer" finish than the normal brush-on Minwax product.
- Rockler brand Polyurethane Gel Finish -- he said that this product
is easiest to apply since you just wipe up the excess. He also
thought that since it is thicker it might need fewer coats.
Basically, I am a bit confused by the variety here and would like some
advice on how to pick the poly finish that offers the best combination
of the following attributes (ordered by importance as follows)
- Hard/durable surface
- Easy to apply without risk of bubbles or brush strokes or wet
edge drying to fast
- Fast drying (so I can do a few coats a day, or at least 2)
- Fewer required coats
Also, the sales person mentioned two alternatives for getting to a
Satin finish:
- Use satin on all coats
- Use gloss on all but the final coat which is Satin - he thought
this might be better since repeated satin coats may make the
finish less clear
Any thoughts on which method is better or whether there will even be a
significant difference to make it worth buying the gloss & satin
finishes?
Sorry for all these questions but I am bewildered by all the choices
and have not (yet) had a lifetime of experience to understand the
subtle differences.
Thanks,
Jeff
On Fri, 16 May 2008 23:05:47 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Barry - I thought you would get a charge out of this. I recently got
>down to the bottom of my KK stuff, and decided to see how well it
>would brush. In all this time, I have never tried it!
>
>Nor will I again. It was such an overwhelming disaster that I finally
>stopped putting it on as I had the worst mess I have ever made when
>finishing. It was just a test, no harm/no foul, but WOW... when Dave
>said it definitely wasn't brushing lacquer - HE WASN'T KIDDING!
>
>Seriously, what a mess. But since it was on scrap, it still makes me
>laugh.
Duly noted.
It's always worth a shot, though...
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
On Sat, 17 May 2008 13:47:33 GMT, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Thanks again
>Rich
My pleasure!
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
blueman wrote:
> B A R R Y <[email protected]> writes:
>> I'd then wipe on 3-5 coats of Minwax wipe-on poly...
>
> Also, when I was at Rockler today, the manager suggested some
> alternative poly brands.
>
> - Normal oil-based brush-on Minwax (but he discourage this as being a
> "cheap" brand and warned that brush-on will be harder to apply)
>
> - General Finishes Arm-R-Seal Urethane Topcoat (a wipe one product)
> which he said has better "oils" and will go on better and give a
> "richer" finish than the normal brush-on Minwax product.
>
> - Rockler brand Polyurethane Gel Finish -- he said that this product
> is easiest to apply since you just wipe up the excess. He also
> thought that since it is thicker it might need fewer coats.
>
>
> Basically, I am a bit confused by the variety here and would like some
> advice on how to pick the poly finish that offers the best combination
> of the following attributes (ordered by importance as follows)
> - Hard/durable surface
Any decent brand
_________
> - Easy to apply without risk of bubbles or brush strokes or wet
> edge drying to fast
Any decent brand
____________
> - Fast drying (so I can do a few coats a day, or at least 2)
Most oil base poly can be recoated in about four hours or a bit less. Wait
much longer and it should be lightly sanded prior to next coat.
Water base poly dries faster but it gives (to me) an uninteresting,
monochromatic appearance to the wood since it doesn't "wet" it like oil.
____________
> - Fewer required coats
Then use brush on. Wipe on = THIN coats, many required to equal 3-4 brush
on coats.
_____________
> Also, the sales person mentioned two alternatives for getting to a
> Satin finish:
> - Use satin on all coats
> - Use gloss on all but the final coat which is Satin - he thought
> this might be better since repeated satin coats may make the
> finish less clear
>
> Any thoughts on which method is better or whether there will even be a
> significant difference to make it worth buying the gloss & satin
> finishes?
Some people recommend what the salesman said. I doubt - *REALLY* doubt -
that they would be able to tell the difference between the two methods. I
would either...
A. use all satin
- OR -
B. use all gloss and rub out the final coat with #0000 steel wool once
the poly was thoroughly dry (a week or more). This also smooths the
surface, knocking off any dust nibs, lap marks, brush marks, etc. If the
resultant shine is too low, wax it.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
"RF" wrote
> > - What type of stain works best on White Oak?
> > Are gel stains better than "normal" oil-based stains?
> > Any suggestions on brand or color to give it a little deeper &
> > warmer natural oak color?
Rockler carries a gel stain called "Mission Oak" that is made by the
Lawrence McFadden Co. It is an excellent product and I find that a single
coat of the stain will generally get you where you want to be with regard to
a traditional white oak color.
The two examples below have only a single coat of this particular gel stain
and no top coat. The top coat will be up to you and the environment.
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/MSB5.JPG
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/CornCab22.jpg
Two coats will give you a much darker effect, and keep in mind that your
choice of top coat can also have an impact on the final color.
I personally don't bother will filler on quarter sawn white oak ... YMMV, so
experiment on scrap.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Fri, 16 May 2008 22:37:16 GMT, blueman <[email protected]> wrote:
>- How fine should I sand?
> Is 220 enough?
> Can I use my ROS the whole way or should I switch to by hand at
> some point?
>
>- Do I need to seal or fill pores in White Oak before?
> If so, what products do you recommend?
>
>- What type of stain works best on White Oak?
> Are gel stains better than "normal" oil-based stains?
> Any suggestions on brand or color to give it a little deeper &
> warmer natural oak color?
>
>- What type of final finish?
> Poly? Shellac? other?
> What sheen is typically best for bench or panelling? (I'm
> thinking maybe satin???)
> How many coats?
>
>I know some of the answers are subjective, but I would love to get
>some expert opinions.
With your equipment and experience:
I'd stop @ 150 with the ROS, then hand sand WITH THE GRAIN with 150 on
a hard felt or rubber block. Woodcraft sells really nice hard felt
sanding blocks for about $5.
Next, I'd wipe the entire item down with "Robert's Blend", which is
simply equal amounts of Seal Coat shellac, Boiled Linseed Oil, and
genuine (pine base) turpentine. Seal Coat is dewaxed shellac, as is
the dewaxed flake you mix yourself, Zinnser "Clear" and "Amber" have
wax, and are not suitable.
I'd then wipe on 3-5 coats of Minwax wipe-on poly, lightly scuffing
with 0000 steel wool between coats. Use the steel wool properly by
unfolding it and orienting the wires ACROSS your rubbing direction.
Since you're going to do this entire process on a scrap board before
you'll do the whole item (hint... hint... <G>) do 1/2 of the scrap
with satin and the other with gloss, and decide what YOU like. You
can also mix satin and gloss together to create sheens in between.
I only fill White Oak pores on table tops, and sometimes, I don't even
do those.
With my equipment and experience, I'd spray it with ML Campbell
Ultrastar or DuraVar, or "Kwick Kleen Fast Dry Poly, in place of the
wiped poly. This is mainly for speed and the fast dry time of tehse
products that doesn't allow dust to stick.
What "Robert's Blend" looks like on white oak, with a semi-gloss
lacquer:
<http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html>
The drawer sides are maple, with Ultrastar only, for a comparison.
Note the warm color of the oak. I normally prefer dull lacquer, but
the gloss was required to match another item.
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
blueman <[email protected]> writes:
> Basically, I am a bit confused by the variety here and would like some
> advice on how to pick the poly finish that offers the best combination
> of the following attributes (ordered by importance as follows)
> - Hard/durable surface
> - Easy to apply without risk of bubbles or brush strokes or wet
> edge drying to fast
> - Fast drying (so I can do a few coats a day, or at least 2)
> - Fewer required coats
The poly I use is a good quality floor-grade high gloss oil-based poly
(Sherwin Williams). I can recoat every 12 hours. I brush it on, and
sand or steel wool between coats. I've learned to dislike "fast
drying" poly as it dries before the brush strokes and bubbles can
"settle out" on their own. The only exception is sanding sealer,
which I'm going to sand flat anyway.
You can turn any poly into a "wipe on" poly by thinning it 30-50%.
Unthinned builds faster, I usually use 3 coats, whereas up to 10 coats
may be needed for just wipe-on.
I seem to recall a recent article, perhaps in FWW, comparing poly.
They found no noticable difference between minwax and "quality"
brands. YMMV.
As for bubbles, they can be avoided (mostly) by choosing the right
type of brush and technique.
> - Use satin on all coats
> - Use gloss on all but the final coat which is Satin - he thought
> this might be better since repeated satin coats may make the
> finish less clear
Use gloss for all but the last coat. The chemicals they use to make
semi and satin poly also make it softer than gloss.
If the surface is flat anyway (closed grain woods), consider using
just gloss and rubbing it out to get satin.
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
> On Sat, 17 May 2008 08:15:13 -0400, B A R R Y
> >
> >I try to make my dovetails (regardless of method) so the pins are
> >slightly (1/64"-1/32") proud, and easily trainable with a sharp plane.
>
> That's "TRIMMABLE"!
>
> Damn spell check...
Wirks iether whey ...
:)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)