Long sad story:
One of my best friends, you know, the one that always comes to me for
advice. The pressure relief valve on his water heater failed.
Slowly, over a period of at least a month. The plumber that
originally installed the water heater just drilled a hole in the floor
and piped the relief valve into the dirt crawl space. So, for at
least a month, they thought they had a running toilet. But no, the
relief valve was turning the crawl space into a steaming lake. They
noticed the wood floors buckling a week ago, but we had just
experienced an unusual weather pattern that brought us 17 straight
days of rain. Passed it off to high humidity. Noticed that the front
yard had developed a running spring halfway down the slope. But lots
of rain lately. They noticed that the air conditioner was running all
the time too. Made a note to have it serviced when they got time.
Finally, yesterday, they opened the utility closet and found the leak
. . . and the lake under the crawl space. When I shone a light across
the underside of the floor joists, a million tiny sparkles shown from
a million drops of water clinging to the bottom of each joist and the
underside of the subfloor. Over the entire 2000 square feet. The
foundation walls had a little trench around the inside where the
builder over-excavated the footings. So there's a 6" deep moat of
standing water all along the perimeter wall. The footings for the
support piers in the middle of the house were similarly
over-excavated. They each stand in their own little pond. When I
crawled around to survey the damage, my knees and hands sunk 4 to 6
inches into the heavy clay in some places. Just wanted you to
understand the nature of the problem.
Yes, he'll have foundation problems, but we have lots of foundation
experts locally because of the expansive nature of that clay.
What I want help with are his floors. 100 year old heart pine
salvaged from a cotton gin or something, planed and finished. Don't
know if it's poly or varnish, but it's quite shiny. The flooring
expert he called took some moisture readings and said they were
hopeless. The expert wants to tear them out and replace them. Maybe
the subfloor too.
I said yes, take them out. Dry them out. Send them to a kiln if you
have to. But when they are dry, they should go back pretty close to
their original shape, Right? If they were worth salvaging from a
cotton gin or wherever, aren't they worth salvaging now?
Should the finish be removed by sanding or planing before drying to
let the moisture escape equally to avoid cupping?
Is this guy trying to sell new flooring, or could the wood be damaged
beyond repair?
Like most of us, I'm the recognized wood expert in my circle of
friends. But this is beyond the realm of my experience. Big bucks
ride on the decision. Help me out here. What to do?
DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 16 Jul 2004 19:59:43 -0700, DonkeyHody <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I said yes, take them out. Dry them out. Send them to a kiln if you
> have to. But when they are dry, they should go back pretty close to
> their original shape, Right? If they were worth salvaging from a
> cotton gin or wherever, aren't they worth salvaging now?
Leave 'em in, run the A/C and some dehumidifiers, and see what you get.
If that fails, *then* take 'em out. I've seen some amazing floor buckling
due to water come out just by environmental drying.
> Is this guy trying to sell new flooring, or could the wood be damaged
> beyond repair?
Waaaay to early to tell.
> But this is beyond the realm of my experience. Big bucks
> ride on the decision. Help me out here. What to do?
Wait and see, all may be fine.
Dave Hinz
On 17 Jul 2004 07:09:16 -0700, DonkeyHody <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks for the replies so far. A couple of things I forgot to
> mention. The floor boards are about 6 inches wide, laid over 3/4 inch
> plywood subfloor. They LOOK old, so a little cupping or cracks
> between boards would be more acceptable than on a traditional hardwood
> floor.
That's good news!
> We're in central Mississippi. Ambient relative humidity hovers around
> 70% outside, even when it's not raining.
That's news that's less good, but you'll still get there.
>
> I tend to agree with the advice to wait. I'm thinking he should focus
> on drying out first. The floor, subfloor and joists don't appear to
> be rotten at all, they're just wet. So there should be no rush to rip
> things out until we see where things go back to when they are dried.
> As long as the damage has been well documented, the insurance should
> cover it even if he waits a year or so, right?
Unless they're schmucks, yes. Get lots of air moving, and get that
air as dry as you can make it. Between those two, as long as you're not
blowing air in that's wetter than the air already in there, you'll be
making progress. Slower might even be better in this case, I don't know.
> On the other hand, I'm a little concerned about how long it will take
> to get all that moisture out of the floor and subfloor with so little
> drying potential available. I have visions of all sorts of fungus
> growing in the space between the floor and subfloor.
Maybe a bleach solution is in your future? 10% bleach is what we use
to decontaminate our ambulance after calls, kills pretty much everything.
I'd start the ventilation/drying by mounting some small fans on some of the
foundation vents. When things start looking fairly dry, then put a couple
of home dehumidifiers in the crawlspace. They need draining, of course, so
put them where you can get to the buckets. If you can get a hose out
through the foundation, it would save a lot of trouble. Maybe a small bilge
pump in the bucket? Then you could pump up and out.
Once everything gets stabilized, a plastic membrane over the whole
crawlspace floor will keep ground moisture from coming up. The fans may
need to be permanent.
Good luck and let us know what happens.
Wilson
"DonkeyHody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Long sad story:
> One of my best friends, you know, the one that always comes to me for
> advice. The pressure relief valve on his water heater failed.
> Slowly, over a period of at least a month. The plumber that
> originally installed the water heater just drilled a hole in the floor
> and piped the relief valve into the dirt crawl space. So, for at
> least a month, they thought they had a running toilet. But no, the
> relief valve was turning the crawl space into a steaming lake. They
> noticed the wood floors buckling a week ago, but we had just
> experienced an unusual weather pattern that brought us 17 straight
> days of rain. Passed it off to high humidity. Noticed that the front
> yard had developed a running spring halfway down the slope. But lots
> of rain lately. They noticed that the air conditioner was running all
> the time too. Made a note to have it serviced when they got time.
>
> Finally, yesterday, they opened the utility closet and found the leak
> . . . and the lake under the crawl space. When I shone a light across
> the underside of the floor joists, a million tiny sparkles shown from
> a million drops of water clinging to the bottom of each joist and the
> underside of the subfloor. Over the entire 2000 square feet. The
> foundation walls had a little trench around the inside where the
> builder over-excavated the footings. So there's a 6" deep moat of
> standing water all along the perimeter wall. The footings for the
> support piers in the middle of the house were similarly
> over-excavated. They each stand in their own little pond. When I
> crawled around to survey the damage, my knees and hands sunk 4 to 6
> inches into the heavy clay in some places. Just wanted you to
> understand the nature of the problem.
>
> Yes, he'll have foundation problems, but we have lots of foundation
> experts locally because of the expansive nature of that clay.
>
> What I want help with are his floors. 100 year old heart pine
> salvaged from a cotton gin or something, planed and finished. Don't
> know if it's poly or varnish, but it's quite shiny. The flooring
> expert he called took some moisture readings and said they were
> hopeless. The expert wants to tear them out and replace them. Maybe
> the subfloor too.
>
> I said yes, take them out. Dry them out. Send them to a kiln if you
> have to. But when they are dry, they should go back pretty close to
> their original shape, Right? If they were worth salvaging from a
> cotton gin or wherever, aren't they worth salvaging now?
>
> Should the finish be removed by sanding or planing before drying to
> let the moisture escape equally to avoid cupping?
>
> Is this guy trying to sell new flooring, or could the wood be damaged
> beyond repair?
>
> Like most of us, I'm the recognized wood expert in my circle of
> friends. But this is beyond the realm of my experience. Big bucks
> ride on the decision. Help me out here. What to do?
>
> DonkeyHody
> "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
> that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
> on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
> again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
> one anymore." - Mark Twain
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
I agree. Let them dry in place and see what develops.
My story. I decorated a new dining room. Paint, wallpaper and a chair
rail. I used a pnuematic nail gun. When installing the chair rail, I hit a
waterpipe to the upstairs laundry room. Dead center. Aluminum nail into
copper pipe. You would think it would carom off of the water pipe. Hit it
dead center. Not once but twice. Both sealed like a nail in a tire. Very
slow leak took a month to notice. Wood floors in adjoining office buckled.
No damage to newly decorated room. Floors healed. Gotta go on vacation
now. bye
"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 16 Jul 2004 19:59:43 -0700, DonkeyHody <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I said yes, take them out. Dry them out. Send them to a kiln if you
> > have to. But when they are dry, they should go back pretty close to
> > their original shape, Right? If they were worth salvaging from a
> > cotton gin or wherever, aren't they worth salvaging now?
>
> Leave 'em in, run the A/C and some dehumidifiers, and see what you get.
> If that fails, *then* take 'em out. I've seen some amazing floor buckling
> due to water come out just by environmental drying.
>
> > Is this guy trying to sell new flooring, or could the wood be damaged
> > beyond repair?
>
> Waaaay to early to tell.
>
> > But this is beyond the realm of my experience. Big bucks
> > ride on the decision. Help me out here. What to do?
>
> Wait and see, all may be fine.
>
> Dave Hinz
Rent dehumidifiers and run fans in the crawl space. Big ones. See what
happens with time.
A knowledgable floor shop won't want to touch them because they can do
strange things later, I know I've been burnt while managing a large shop.
Got called back a year later after the moisture meters said what they were
supposed to say. Nyet.
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
[email protected] (DonkeyHody) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
snip
> I tend to agree with the advice to wait. I'm thinking he should focus
> on drying out first. The floor, subfloor and joists don't appear to
> be rotten at all, they're just wet. So there should be no rush to rip
> things out until we see where things go back to when they are dried.
> As long as the damage has been well documented, the insurance should
> cover it even if he waits a year or so, right?
>
I would get the agreement with the insurance adjuster in writing, just to
be sure. Verbal agreements, particularly over time, tend to self-modify.
I am concerned about the mildew, however. Mold remediation issues are
becoming very contentious with insurance companies here in California.
Good luck with this. I hope your friend can save the character of this
home.
Patriarch
I Had something like this happen in my new house. the oak floor was
drenched with hundreds of gallon of water for a weekend(pipe in the kitchen
was not connected then power was applied to the well pump and the builder
left). the floor looked destroyed, really cupped badly. the builder removed
it and I claimed it (hate to see that much oak trashed)and put it in the
basement snickered. about four months later it all looks good, so I used it
to do the entire basement floor including the shop. At the time of the flood
the wood floor contractor told me that if left in place the floor would
return to normal in a few months(builder and my wife decided not to wait)
and would need only minor refinishing.
Len
"DonkeyHody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Long sad story:
> One of my best friends, you know, the one that always comes to me for
> advice. The pressure relief valve on his water heater failed.
> Slowly, over a period of at least a month. The plumber that
> originally installed the water heater just drilled a hole in the floor
> and piped the relief valve into the dirt crawl space. So, for at
> least a month, they thought they had a running toilet. But no, the
> relief valve was turning the crawl space into a steaming lake. They
> noticed the wood floors buckling a week ago, but we had just
> experienced an unusual weather pattern that brought us 17 straight
> days of rain. Passed it off to high humidity. Noticed that the front
> yard had developed a running spring halfway down the slope. But lots
> of rain lately. They noticed that the air conditioner was running all
> the time too. Made a note to have it serviced when they got time.
>
> Finally, yesterday, they opened the utility closet and found the leak
> . . . and the lake under the crawl space. When I shone a light across
> the underside of the floor joists, a million tiny sparkles shown from
> a million drops of water clinging to the bottom of each joist and the
> underside of the subfloor. Over the entire 2000 square feet. The
> foundation walls had a little trench around the inside where the
> builder over-excavated the footings. So there's a 6" deep moat of
> standing water all along the perimeter wall. The footings for the
> support piers in the middle of the house were similarly
> over-excavated. They each stand in their own little pond. When I
> crawled around to survey the damage, my knees and hands sunk 4 to 6
> inches into the heavy clay in some places. Just wanted you to
> understand the nature of the problem.
>
> Yes, he'll have foundation problems, but we have lots of foundation
> experts locally because of the expansive nature of that clay.
>
> What I want help with are his floors. 100 year old heart pine
> salvaged from a cotton gin or something, planed and finished. Don't
> know if it's poly or varnish, but it's quite shiny. The flooring
> expert he called took some moisture readings and said they were
> hopeless. The expert wants to tear them out and replace them. Maybe
> the subfloor too.
>
> I said yes, take them out. Dry them out. Send them to a kiln if you
> have to. But when they are dry, they should go back pretty close to
> their original shape, Right? If they were worth salvaging from a
> cotton gin or wherever, aren't they worth salvaging now?
>
> Should the finish be removed by sanding or planing before drying to
> let the moisture escape equally to avoid cupping?
>
> Is this guy trying to sell new flooring, or could the wood be damaged
> beyond repair?
>
> Like most of us, I'm the recognized wood expert in my circle of
> friends. But this is beyond the realm of my experience. Big bucks
> ride on the decision. Help me out here. What to do?
>
> DonkeyHody
> "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
> that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
> on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
> again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
> one anymore." - Mark Twain
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
DonkeyHody wrote:
> Long sad story:
> One of my best friends, you know, the one that always comes to me for
> advice. The pressure relief valve on his water heater failed.
> Slowly, over a period of at least a month. The plumber that
> originally installed the water heater just drilled a hole in the floor
> and piped the relief valve into the dirt crawl space. So, for at
> least a month, they thought they had a running toilet. But no, the
> relief valve was turning the crawl space into a steaming lake. They
> noticed the wood floors buckling a week ago, but we had just
> experienced an unusual weather pattern that brought us 17 straight
> days of rain. Passed it off to high humidity. Noticed that the front
> yard had developed a running spring halfway down the slope. But lots
> of rain lately. They noticed that the air conditioner was running all
> the time too. Made a note to have it serviced when they got time.
>
> Finally, yesterday, they opened the utility closet and found the leak
> . . . and the lake under the crawl space. When I shone a light across
> the underside of the floor joists, a million tiny sparkles shown from
> a million drops of water clinging to the bottom of each joist and the
> underside of the subfloor. Over the entire 2000 square feet. The
> foundation walls had a little trench around the inside where the
> builder over-excavated the footings. So there's a 6" deep moat of
> standing water all along the perimeter wall. The footings for the
> support piers in the middle of the house were similarly
> over-excavated. They each stand in their own little pond. When I
> crawled around to survey the damage, my knees and hands sunk 4 to 6
> inches into the heavy clay in some places. Just wanted you to
> understand the nature of the problem.
>
> Yes, he'll have foundation problems, but we have lots of foundation
> experts locally because of the expansive nature of that clay.
>
> What I want help with are his floors. 100 year old heart pine
> salvaged from a cotton gin or something, planed and finished. Don't
> know if it's poly or varnish, but it's quite shiny. The flooring
> expert he called took some moisture readings and said they were
> hopeless. The expert wants to tear them out and replace them. Maybe
> the subfloor too.
>
> I said yes, take them out. Dry them out. Send them to a kiln if you
> have to. But when they are dry, they should go back pretty close to
> their original shape, Right? If they were worth salvaging from a
> cotton gin or wherever, aren't they worth salvaging now?
>
> Should the finish be removed by sanding or planing before drying to
> let the moisture escape equally to avoid cupping?
>
> Is this guy trying to sell new flooring, or could the wood be damaged
> beyond repair?
>
> Like most of us, I'm the recognized wood expert in my circle of
> friends. But this is beyond the realm of my experience. Big bucks
> ride on the decision. Help me out here. What to do?
Big question--does he need a nice floor _now_ or can he wait for it to dry
out before making a decision? If he needs a nice floor _now_ then the only
real choice is to take it up and replace it. Anything they do _now_ to the
existing flooring to improve the appearance is going to look like Hell when
it dries out. If you're going to keep it then _leave_ _it_ _alone_ until
it dries. If it was flat when it got wet, anything you do (sanding,
planing, etc) that tends to flatten it is going to make hollows when it
dries, then you'll have to sand or plane out the hollows and you may end up
running out of floor before you get it flat again.
As far as taking up the flooring, sending it out to a kiln, and putting it
back, that might be workable _if_ there's enough thickness left to permit
it to be refinished with enough thickness left after the refinishing to
allow a stable floor and a few additional refinishings, and _if_ there is
enough matching flooring available to allow for the pieces that are
inevitably going to be damaged in the removal. Lot of "if"s there.
There should be another party involved in this--what does the insurance
company want to do?
>
> DonkeyHody
> "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
> that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
> on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
> again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
> one anymore." - Mark Twain
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Thanks for the replies so far. A couple of things I forgot to
mention. The floor boards are about 6 inches wide, laid over 3/4 inch
plywood subfloor. They LOOK old, so a little cupping or cracks
between boards would be more acceptable than on a traditional hardwood
floor.
We're in central Mississippi. Ambient relative humidity hovers around
70% outside, even when it's not raining. Air conditioning only brings
it down to about 60% inside, so drying is very slow. The house is
already beginning to smell of mildew.
I tend to agree with the advice to wait. I'm thinking he should focus
on drying out first. The floor, subfloor and joists don't appear to
be rotten at all, they're just wet. So there should be no rush to rip
things out until we see where things go back to when they are dried.
As long as the damage has been well documented, the insurance should
cover it even if he waits a year or so, right?
On the other hand, I'm a little concerned about how long it will take
to get all that moisture out of the floor and subfloor with so little
drying potential available. I have visions of all sorts of fungus
growing in the space between the floor and subfloor.
DonkeyHody
As Paul Harvey says, here's the Rest of the Story. My friend called
today and said if I wanted any of that flooring to come get it. When
I arrived, there were SIX contractor's vehicles parked in front of his
place including a dump truck. No way that contractor was messing
around trying to salvage anything. They were ripping the flooring up
with crowbars and wrecking hammers. And there were nails about every
foot or so. I couldn't have made anything larger than a jewelry box
from that stuff.
When I saw it, I decided the flooring contractor was probably right.
There was a layer of what appeared to be roofing felt between the pine
floor and the subfloor. Apparently, the hot water did not all make it
into the crawl space. Some of the water got between the pine flooring
and the roofing felt. The felt carried it to the farthest corners of
the house. There was standing water on the top of the felt in some
places. Mold was everywhere. You could smell it when you walked in,
and you could see it on the bottom of the pine boards. Insurance is
paying for replacement in kind and the flooring contractor promises he
can get more just like that. I still believe the flooring could have
been salvaged in place given enough time. But the mold is a whole
'nuther issue. My friend and his wife are happy with their decision,
so I am too.
Thanks for the advice,
DonkeyHody
That's why I suggested dehumidifiers. They will keep working and will pull
you lower than 70%. Of course, you have to do the preliminary with
circulation, then close off the crawlspace and start the dehumidifiers.
Running the machine with the crawlspace vents open is a waste of
electricity, less effective than fans changing the air. When you start
dehumidifiers in the crawlspace, start one in the house too. It will pull
down the humidity more efficiently than the A/C. Of course, you must keep
the house closed as much as possible or you will be drying the atmosphere, a
losing proposition.
Insurance should pay for all the machines if the floor is not replaced.
This will take several weeks and without plastic on the ground under the
house you are swimmiing upstream.
Wilson
"DonkeyHody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks for the replies so far. A couple of things I forgot to
> mention. The floor boards are about 6 inches wide, laid over 3/4 inch
> plywood subfloor. They LOOK old, so a little cupping or cracks
> between boards would be more acceptable than on a traditional hardwood
> floor.
>
> We're in central Mississippi. Ambient relative humidity hovers around
> 70% outside, even when it's not raining. Air conditioning only brings
> it down to about 60% inside, so drying is very slow. The house is
> already beginning to smell of mildew.
>
> I tend to agree with the advice to wait. I'm thinking he should focus
> on drying out first. The floor, subfloor and joists don't appear to
> be rotten at all, they're just wet. So there should be no rush to rip
> things out until we see where things go back to when they are dried.
> As long as the damage has been well documented, the insurance should
> cover it even if he waits a year or so, right?
>
> On the other hand, I'm a little concerned about how long it will take
> to get all that moisture out of the floor and subfloor with so little
> drying potential available. I have visions of all sorts of fungus
> growing in the space between the floor and subfloor.
>
>
> DonkeyHody
On 16 Jul 2004 19:59:43 -0700, [email protected] (DonkeyHody)
wrote:
>Long sad story:
><snip>
>Like most of us, I'm the recognized wood expert in my circle of
>friends. But this is beyond the realm of my experience. Big bucks
>ride on the decision. Help me out here. What to do?
>
>DonkeyHody
>"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
>that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
>on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
>again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
>one anymore." - Mark Twain
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had an oak floor soaked once and all of the boards cupped. Waited
almost 3 months before sanding and refinishing - Beautiful! Over the
next several months, the boards continued to dry. Now the boards are
all crowned : ( - advise: let the floor dry long enough and you
should be ok.
Bill
I agree with everyone who said to fix the leak, then wait and see.
Some years ago when I was living in a rowhouse, the house next door
had a fire. It sat vacant for about 2 years with a opening in the roof
about 10X10 feet. I made an offer to the owner and bought the building.
On the top floor, below the open roof, the floor was all wavy and bowed,
in some places a much as 6 inches too high. This was a mid-1800s
building with random width softwood flooring. After I fixed the roof,
within about 2-3 months the floor had almost leveled out, at least to
the same degree that most houses in the neighborhood had level floors,
and this was before even driving any new nails into it.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]