How far?

George responds:

>The machine has no nationality.
>
>"Mark L." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> How true. I'm a tool and die maker who has been in the trade for 25
>> years and now I'm seeing 9 out of 10 toolmakers I know retraining for a
>> different career path. Most dies and molds are built and run in China.
>>
>> Eric Tonks wrote:
>> > It won't be long before the US military has to order it's battleships
>from
>> > Tiawan and it's missles from mainland China because there are no skilled
>> > workers nor competent factories that can make them.

True. But what happens if US foreign policy goes against the grain of China or
Taiwan? They then refuse to manufacture whatever it is the US needs to create
policy, and whoops! You can bet your tuchus we're then going to see some
factories and foundries recreated.

Charlie Self
"Democracy is a process by which people are free to choose the man who will get
the blame." Laurence J. Peter

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 09:27:56 -0400, "George" <george@least> wrote:

>Nope, too many years of litigation involved. Not to mention we'd have to
>recreate the machine tool industry first.
>
>

and that in the face of sanctions to prevent washington from building
weapons of mass destruction....




>"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> George responds:
>>
>> >The machine has no nationality.
>
>
>>
>> True. But what happens if US foreign policy goes against the grain of
>China or
>> Taiwan? They then refuse to manufacture whatever it is the US needs to
>create
>> policy, and whoops! You can bet your tuchus we're then going to see some
>> factories and foundries recreated.
>

Nope, too many years of litigation involved. Not to mention we'd have to
recreate the machine tool industry first.


"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George responds:
>
> >The machine has no nationality.


>
> True. But what happens if US foreign policy goes against the grain of
China or
> Taiwan? They then refuse to manufacture whatever it is the US needs to
create
> policy, and whoops! You can bet your tuchus we're then going to see some
> factories and foundries recreated.

George wrote:

> Nope, too many years of litigation involved. Not to mention we'd have to
> recreate the machine tool industry first.

If it got down to an impending war with China then you can bet that
litigation would not be an issue--when Congress decides that the lawyers
need to be told to take a hike the lawyers will take a hike, and when
Congress figures out that once the Chinese take over they will all fail of
re-election (the worst disaster that can possibly befall the universe, from
the viewpoint of a politician, is that that politician fail of re-election)
then they will decide to serve notice on the lawyers.

Constitutional Amendment--"no person practicing law in the United States may
be paid more than fifty percent of the mean income of a machinist of
equivalent experience and no person may practice law in the United States
until they have demonstrated proficiency in the operation of machine
tools."

As for recreating the machine tool industry, that's a more serious concern.

> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> George responds:
>>
>> >The machine has no nationality.
>
>
>>
>> True. But what happens if US foreign policy goes against the grain of
> China or
>> Taiwan? They then refuse to manufacture whatever it is the US needs to
> create
>> policy, and whoops! You can bet your tuchus we're then going to see some
>> factories and foundries recreated.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Brian Homan writes:

>Blame it on NAFTA (Now America is F***ednin The Ass). Passed by politicians
>already retired and got their money so to hell with us.
>John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> How far can it go? Bought some toothpicks last week. Toothpicks! Made in
>> China! "Made in China" will soon become the most used words in the
>> English language.
>>

Actually, that's North American Free Trade Agreement which doesn't have a
f***king thing to do with China. The aim was Mexico and Canada, which created
enough turmoil.

Some birds are coming home to roost, though: I've read that some Mexican jobs,
imported from the U.S., are now being exported to China, Malaysia, et al.

Another scary part is the export of many, maybe most, customer service jobs to
India. Having had personal experience of Dell's version of this, with one of
their "fluent" English speakers, I have to hope it doesn't move on to China.
It's a horror story from the customer's point of view already.

Charlie Self
"Democracy is a process by which people are free to choose the man who will get
the blame." Laurence J. Peter

Charlie Self wrote:

> Brian Homan writes:
>
>>Blame it on NAFTA (Now America is F***ednin The Ass). Passed by
>>politicians already retired and got their money so to hell with us.
>>John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> How far can it go? Bought some toothpicks last week. Toothpicks! Made in
>>> China! "Made in China" will soon become the most used words in the
>>> English language.
>>>
>
> Actually, that's North American Free Trade Agreement which doesn't have a
> f***king thing to do with China. The aim was Mexico and Canada, which
> created enough turmoil.
>
> Some birds are coming home to roost, though: I've read that some Mexican
> jobs, imported from the U.S., are now being exported to China, Malaysia,
> et al.
>
> Another scary part is the export of many, maybe most, customer service
> jobs to India. Having had personal experience of Dell's version of this,
> with one of their "fluent" English speakers, I have to hope it doesn't
> move on to China. It's a horror story from the customer's point of view
> already.

China would be an improvement in one way--at least they'd have people who
could read the manuals for the stuff in their original language--I can
imagine some guy in India for whom English is a second language trying to
make sense of some of the transliterated Cantonese manuals that I've seen
and going postal, or whatever they do in India when job stress removes
sanity.



> Charlie Self
> "Democracy is a process by which people are free to choose the man who
> will get the blame." Laurence J. Peter

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Andy Dingley asks:

>
>>Japan, sure, but when did "Made in Germany" _ever_ mean second-rate?
>
>Did you ever see _East_ German imports in the USA, or were they
>excluded by some McCarthyist hangover ? There were some pretty rough
>things made there in the last decades.

Mostly condemned to the same limbo as Cuban items and culture...people could
come, but leave the manufactured things home.

Charlie Self
"Give me golf clubs, fresh air and a beautiful partner, and you can keep the
clubs and the fresh air." Jack Benny

>Case in point: Go to the BORG, any BORG, to buy four hardware widgets.

The BORG is not a hardware store. Go to Ace. They will sell you one screw or a
box of screws. By the box they are pretty cheap.

Swingman states:

>And while we are on the subject, what is also amazing, at least to those of
>us old enough to note the difference between then and now, is the
>terminology used by corporations to foster the impression that they give a
>shit, like "customer care" and "customer service" ... if there are any words
>more contradictory in today's lexicon, I've yet to see them, particularly if
>a telephone is involved.
>
>Because of lack of perspective, relatively young consumers have NO earthly
>idea just how much more MORONIC the average employee, responsible for
>interface with the customer, is these days.

Bet your bippy. My wife is looking for a job right now. There are not more jobs
for clerks. They are all "customer service" types and all employees are now
"associates."

What horseshit. It's still minimum wage, annual 2% raises (or none), no
bennies, no incentive whatsoever to do a decent job. Lacking incentive, no
sensible person applies for that kind of job, so the dipshits take over. Years
ago, my wife had a job with an office supply store. She was there when we got
married--that's where I met her, in fact. For four years after we were married,
her boss didn't give her a raise. No bennies, either. Reason: I was working and
making semi-decent money. Pfui. He was mildly puzzled when she quit to take
care of grandchildren for no pay.

Charlie Self
"Democracy is a process by which people are free to choose the man who will get
the blame." Laurence J. Peter

In article <pelPc.16216$Xn.11201@fed1read05>,
AArDvarK <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Rick, I keep seeing this term "BORG", what does it mean? Big Organization?
>Alex
>
>

Weak pun on the like-named aliens from "Star Trek: The Next Generation",
who inhabit large box-shaped vessels, and take-over anything within reach
"Resistance is futile -- prepare to be assimilated."

Acronym for <B>ig <O>range <R>etail <G>iant.

Any of the so-called super-stores. As well as specifically the Orange-
colored home-improvement one.

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:57:13 +0000, Eugene <[email protected]> wrote:

>Greg wrote:
>
>>>Case in point: Go to the BORG, any BORG, to buy four hardware widgets.
>>
>> The BORG is not a hardware store. Go to Ace. They will sell you one screw
>> or a box of screws. By the box they are pretty cheap.
>Ace always has a better selection, however the ACE near me always has a
>bunch of boxes of screws almost empty and half of the screws left in that
>box don't match the label and they almost never have the hole boxes.

Man, and all this time, I've been using drill bits for the holes. :-)


> Maybe
>its just the old 'hood that I live in, I haven't driven to any other yet.
>I have been buying some plastic storage boxes and am going to build a nice
>box to hold them all then start buying screws/bolts by the box from
>internet suppliers.

Sorry, no matter what quantity you have on hand, or is available in a
package, it will be two (too) short of your requirement.

"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Case in point: Go to the BORG, any BORG, to buy four hardware widgets.
>
> The BORG is not a hardware store. Go to Ace. They will sell you one screw
or a
> box of screws. By the box they are pretty cheap.

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 06:57:13 -0600, Eugene wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

> Greg wrote:

> Ace always has a better selection, however the ACE near me always has a
> bunch of boxes of screws almost empty and half of the screws left in that
> box don't match the label and they almost never have the hole boxes. Maybe
> its just the old 'hood that I live in, I haven't driven to any other yet.
> I have been buying some plastic storage boxes and am going to build a nice
> box to hold them all then start buying screws/bolts by the box from
> internet suppliers.
>

Same here! Another problem is the box of screws (the cheap ones) usually are
hecho in China....


-Bruce

"Leon" wrote in message
> Hey Swingman, you are close to Bearings Hardware... LOL.. You can get a
> Cappuccino and a flower arrangement to go with your purchase.

On that same subject, were you aware that there is a Rockler
Woodworking/Hardware store on the N bound feeder street of SW FWY between
Buffalo Speedway and Kirby?

Took my youngest to lunch today and had to park away off from target
restaurant in the same strip ... ended up walking past a shop with Jet
woodworking tools in the front window?? ... for a second there I thought I
was in the wrong time warp.

Had no idea a Rockler existed less than 2 miles from my house ... said they
had been there since December. Lordy, I can feel the crowbar prying away
already.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

SNIP
. Years
> ago, my wife had a job with an office supply store. She was there when we got
> married--that's where I met her, in fact. For four years after we were married,
> her boss didn't give her a raise. No bennies, either. Reason: I was working and
> making semi-decent money. Pfui. He was mildly puzzled when she quit to take
> care of grandchildren for no pay.
>
> Charlie Self

My mom worked as a secretary for the steelworkers union before she
married my dad. (Back in the good old days). When she got married the
union promptly fired her because her "husband should now take care of
her". I really do not think today is worse - and that was a union's
attitude.

Dave Hall

"Leon" wrote in message

> Hey Swingman, you are close to Bearings Hardware... LOL.. You can get a
> Cappuccino and a flower arrangement to go with your purchase.

... and pay a dollar each for an .08 cent part for the privilege. That said,
Bering's does have good help who know their areas, BUT, if you're male it's
required that you wear Italian tassel loafers with no socks to get waited
on.

Besides, I wouldn't want to take the chance that any woodworking friends
would see me go in there.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> For four years after we were married,
> her boss didn't give her a raise. No bennies, either. Reason: I was
working and
> making semi-decent money. Pfui. He was mildly puzzled when she quit to
take
> care of grandchildren for no pay.
>
> Charlie Self

If she was not already employed there, she may not have been hired since
she'd only get pregnant and stay home with the baby. It was a common reason
back then, not to hire women.

Still is but they have made it illegal to say that anymore.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:JM9Pc.3818
>
> If she was not already employed there, she may not have been hired since
> she'd only get pregnant and stay home with the baby. It was a common
reason
> back then, not to hire women.
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, Chris Dubea <[email protected]> wrote:

>I would much rather deal with the professionals, but unfortunately I
>have a day job and generally don't have that opportunity. I have
>switched to a position where we do the 9-80 thing and then get off
>every other friday. I will go to Ace on Friday, but NEVER on the
>weekends.

I used to work at a place that had that schedule. Ain't it great? A three-day
weekend every other week!

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

Hey Swingman, you are close to Bearings Hardware... LOL.. You can get a
Cappuccino and a flower arrangement to go with your purchase.


"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Greg" wrote in message
> > >Case in point: Go to the BORG, any BORG, to buy four hardware widgets.
> >
> > The BORG is not a hardware store. Go to Ace. They will sell you one
screw
> or a
> > box of screws. By the box they are pretty cheap.
>
> The closest Ace was one of the mentioned "hardware" stores that went out
of
> business.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 7/10/04
>
>
>

"Greg" wrote in message
> >Case in point: Go to the BORG, any BORG, to buy four hardware widgets.
>
> The BORG is not a hardware store. Go to Ace. They will sell you one screw
or a
> box of screws. By the box they are pretty cheap.

The closest Ace was one of the mentioned "hardware" stores that went out of
business.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

Greg wrote:

>>Case in point: Go to the BORG, any BORG, to buy four hardware widgets.
>
> The BORG is not a hardware store. Go to Ace. They will sell you one screw
> or a box of screws. By the box they are pretty cheap.
Ace always has a better selection, however the ACE near me always has a
bunch of boxes of screws almost empty and half of the screws left in that
box don't match the label and they almost never have the hole boxes. Maybe
its just the old 'hood that I live in, I haven't driven to any other yet.
I have been buying some plastic storage boxes and am going to build a nice
box to hold them all then start buying screws/bolts by the box from
internet suppliers.

Mark & Juanita wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 19:06:46 +0000, Eugene <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Bruce wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 06:57:13 -0600, Eugene wrote
>>> (in article <[email protected]>):
>>>
>>>> Greg wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ace always has a better selection, however the ACE near me always has a
>>>> bunch of boxes of screws almost empty and half of the screws left in
>>>> that box don't match the label and they almost never have the hole
>>>> boxes. Maybe its just the old 'hood that I live in, I haven't driven to
>>>> any other yet. I have been buying some plastic storage boxes and am
>>>> going to build a nice box to hold them all then start buying
>>>> screws/bolts by the box from internet suppliers.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Same here! Another problem is the box of screws (the cheap ones) usually
>>> are hecho in China....
>>>
>>>
>>> -Bruce
>>I love when you try to screw those china made screws in and they strip out
>>or break even with a pilot hole for them.
>
>
> I've just plain stopped buying screws from any of the Borgs (orange or
> blue) and have even thrown away the screws I had from them. I spent too
> much time dealing with broken screws when using them. McFeeleys is IMHO
> the way to go -- mail order a bunch of various sizes and keep them on
> hand. I have twisted off some McFeeleys screws, but when I have done so,
> it has
> been my fault by setting the torque too high. The chinese screws from the
> Borgs have twisted off for me at even the lowest settings.
I've started ordering ones like stainless steel for all jigs and new router
table as the polishedness seems to wear less on the threads.

Your Ace went out of biz?? I live in a small
town,(6000) a BORG moved in about 18 mo. ago.
One lumber yard closed, the other is still going
strong(?) But Ace is going all out. went there
yesterday, needed some "o" rings to rebuild a
kitchen. Had already been to HD, (closer), and
they didn't have both sizes. The guy at Ace took
about 3 seconds to find a pack w/ both sizes. He
knew the manufacturer, and such. Customer service
isn't dead yet!!


Swingman wrote:
> "Greg" wrote in message
>
>>>Case in point: Go to the BORG, any BORG, to buy four hardware widgets.
>>
>>The BORG is not a hardware store. Go to Ace. They will sell you one screw
>
> or a
>
>>box of screws. By the box they are pretty cheap.
>
>
> The closest Ace was one of the mentioned "hardware" stores that went out of
> business.
>

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 19:06:46 +0000, Eugene <[email protected]> wrote:

>Bruce wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 06:57:13 -0600, Eugene wrote
>> (in article <[email protected]>):
>>
>>> Greg wrote:
>>
>>> Ace always has a better selection, however the ACE near me always has a
>>> bunch of boxes of screws almost empty and half of the screws left in that
>>> box don't match the label and they almost never have the hole boxes.
>>> Maybe its just the old 'hood that I live in, I haven't driven to any
>>> other yet. I have been buying some plastic storage boxes and am going to
>>> build a nice box to hold them all then start buying screws/bolts by the
>>> box from internet suppliers.
>>>
>>
>> Same here! Another problem is the box of screws (the cheap ones) usually
>> are hecho in China....
>>
>>
>> -Bruce
>I love when you try to screw those china made screws in and they strip out
>or break even with a pilot hole for them.


I've just plain stopped buying screws from any of the Borgs (orange or
blue) and have even thrown away the screws I had from them. I spent too
much time dealing with broken screws when using them. McFeeleys is IMHO
the way to go -- mail order a bunch of various sizes and keep them on hand.
I have twisted off some McFeeleys screws, but when I have done so, it has
been my fault by setting the torque too high. The chinese screws from the
Borgs have twisted off for me at even the lowest settings.

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:57:13 +0000, Eugene <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Greg wrote:
>
>>>Case in point: Go to the BORG, any BORG, to buy four hardware widgets.
>>
>> The BORG is not a hardware store. Go to Ace. They will sell you one screw
>> or a box of screws. By the box they are pretty cheap.
>Ace always has a better selection, however the ACE near me always has a
>bunch of boxes of screws almost empty and half of the screws left in that
>box don't match the label and they almost never have the hole boxes. Maybe
>its just the old 'hood that I live in, I haven't driven to any other yet.
>I have been buying some plastic storage boxes and am going to build a nice
>box to hold them all then start buying screws/bolts by the box from
>internet suppliers.

The large Ace where I live is two different stores. The store on
weekdays, where they employ professionals who wait on professionals
and on weekends where they employ smart mouthed teenagers to wait on
the DIY'er. It's this type of service that makes the DIY'er go to the
Borg.

I would much rather deal with the professionals, but unfortunately I
have a day job and generally don't have that opportunity. I have
switched to a position where we do the 9-80 thing and then get off
every other friday. I will go to Ace on Friday, but NEVER on the
weekends.
===========================================================================
Chris

Rick, I keep seeing this term "BORG", what does it mean? Big Organization?
Alex

> Weak pun on the like-named aliens from "Star Trek: The Next Generation",
> who inhabit large box-shaped vessels, and take-over anything within reach
> "Resistance is futile -- prepare to be assimilated."
> Acronym for <B>ig <O>range <R>etail <G>iant.
> Any of the so-called super-stores. As well as specifically the Orange-
> colored home-improvement one.
>

Yeah we got us a damn HD and OSH =BORG, very poor with hand tools like
classic ones. Some sweet hardware stores went out of biz because of them.

"Learned Hardware ... come back - come back!"

Alex

Bruce wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 06:57:13 -0600, Eugene wrote
> (in article <[email protected]>):
>
>> Greg wrote:
>
>> Ace always has a better selection, however the ACE near me always has a
>> bunch of boxes of screws almost empty and half of the screws left in that
>> box don't match the label and they almost never have the hole boxes.
>> Maybe its just the old 'hood that I live in, I haven't driven to any
>> other yet. I have been buying some plastic storage boxes and am going to
>> build a nice box to hold them all then start buying screws/bolts by the
>> box from internet suppliers.
>>
>
> Same here! Another problem is the box of screws (the cheap ones) usually
> are hecho in China....
>
>
> -Bruce
I love when you try to screw those china made screws in and they strip out
or break even with a pilot hole for them.

Mark & Juanita wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:57:13 +0000, Eugene <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Greg wrote:
>>
>>>>Case in point: Go to the BORG, any BORG, to buy four hardware widgets.
>>>
>>> The BORG is not a hardware store. Go to Ace. They will sell you one
>>> screw or a box of screws. By the box they are pretty cheap.
>>Ace always has a better selection, however the ACE near me always has a
>>bunch of boxes of screws almost empty and half of the screws left in that
>>box don't match the label and they almost never have the hole boxes.
>
> Man, and all this time, I've been using drill bits for the holes. :-)
>
>
oops, one the spell checker doesn't catch.