[I've already tried this query on sci.botany and sci.pharmacy; no joy.
And there doesn't seem to be a publicly accessible toxicology forum
where such a question could be posted.]
I am well aware of how hazardous giant hogweed is, before anybody
posts trivial responses to this.
A friend of mine made himself a very nice musical instrument
(a harmonic whistle resembling a Hungarian tilinko) from part
of a giant hogweed stem. His had been detoxified - he lives
on the shore of the Forth, and the stem was washed up after
sloshing around in the sea, maybe for weeks (the Forth has
strong and chaotic tides). Cutting, polishing, painting and
playing it produced no adverse reactions, so the toxin must
have all gone after its saline soak and subsequent drying.
I would like to try the same, using an intact stem to make a
longer, deeper instrument. There's plenty of giant hogweed
growing around here, but I don't have a private ocean to dunk
it in. Any ideas on how to detoxify the stuff at home? I was
thinking of simply standing the stems in a bucket of saline or
alcohol, but maybe there's some specific chemical agent that
will deactivate furanocoumarin? Is drying enough? (I doubt it).
And to repeat, yes I know I'm talking about handling something
as hazardous as a chemical warfare agent. I'm thinking Tyvek
overalls, rubber gloves and a full-face mask when harvesting it
(using a small handsaw which will be immediately disposed of
along with the clothing).
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
On Jul 10, 6:44 pm, Jack Campin - bogus address
<[email protected]> wrote:
> [I've already tried this query on sci.botany and sci.pharmacy; no joy.
> And there doesn't seem to be a publicly accessible toxicology forum
> where such a question could be posted.]
>
> I am well aware of how hazardous giant hogweed is, before anybody
> posts trivial responses to this.
>
> A friend of mine made himself a very nice musical instrument
> (a harmonic whistle resembling a Hungarian tilinko) from part
> of a giant hogweed stem. His had been detoxified - he lives
> on the shore of the Forth, and the stem was washed up after
> sloshing around in the sea, maybe for weeks (the Forth has
> strong and chaotic tides). Cutting, polishing, painting and
> playing it produced no adverse reactions, so the toxin must
> have all gone after its saline soak and subsequent drying.
>
> I would like to try the same, using an intact stem to make a
> longer, deeper instrument. There's plenty of giant hogweed
> growing around here, but I don't have a private ocean to dunk
> it in. Any ideas on how to detoxify the stuff at home? I was
> thinking of simply standing the stems in a bucket of saline or
> alcohol, but maybe there's some specific chemical agent that
> will deactivate furanocoumarin? Is drying enough? (I doubt it).
>
> And to repeat, yes I know I'm talking about handling something
> as hazardous as a chemical warfare agent. I'm thinking Tyvek
> overalls, rubber gloves and a full-face mask when harvesting it
> (using a small handsaw which will be immediately disposed of
> along with the clothing).
I understand the stuff is free, but if they _paid_ me to use it, I
still wouldn't. Where's the benefit?
http://www.life.uiuc.edu/berenbaum/newpage1.htm
This is a tilinko http://danmoi.de/shop/images/medium/kt-1_MED.jpg
Seems to me that you could make one out of wood in any number of
ways. If you're not limiting yourself to wood, you could expand the
construction possibilities by quite a bit.
How about using an acrylic tube and wrapping it with wood veneer and
plugging the ends with solid wood or bone as required?
R
On Jul 11, 8:48 am, Jack Campin - bogus address
<[email protected]> wrote:
> RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Jack Campin - bogus address <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> A friend of mine made himself a very nice musical instrument
> >> (a harmonic whistle resembling a Hungarian tilinko) from part
> >> of a giant hogweed stem. [...]
> >> I would like to try the same, using an intact stem to make a
> >> longer, deeper instrument. [...]
>
> > I understand the stuff is free, but if they _paid_ me to use it,
> > I still wouldn't. Where's the benefit?
>
> It sounds good. Which harmonics you get, and how strong each one is,
> depends on fine details of the bore geometry. Whatever the exact
> shape of the bore of a giant hogweed might be, in practice it gives
> an instrument it's particularly easy to blow tunes on; I found it
> far preferable to the parallel bore of a conventional tilinko. The
> only way to reproduce that would be to X-ray a giant hogweed and use
> computer machining to replicate it. I don't have anything like the
> tools required to do that.
What leads you believe that your hogweed stick will sound the same as
your friend's? If the harmonics are dependent on the fine details of
the bore geometry, little differences can have a big effect, so why
would you think you'd be able to replicate that sound? You don't know
what the fine details are in your friend's stick and you're assuming
that your stick will have the same details. Maybe, maybe not. It's
also unclear what effect, if any, the brine soak had on the sound.
> It's also unusually light, and the ridges on the stem make for an
> interesting look, like something out of a Max Ernst or H.R. Giger
> picture.
That sounds attractive.
> > Seems to me that you could make one out of wood in any number of
> > ways. If you're not limiting yourself to wood, you could expand
> > the construction possibilities by quite a bit.
> > How about using an acrylic tube and wrapping it with wood veneer and
> > plugging the ends with solid wood or bone as required?
>
> That would give a parallel-bore instrument, which is not what I want.
You could built it up from laminations of veneer - either wrapped or
radiating from the center like bike spokes.
That would allow you to tweak the interior so the sides are not
parallel.
You could make a male mold and use a lost wax or similar process.
Etc.
I am not convinced that any piece of hogweed would make a nice
sounding instrument any more than any piece of bamboo would. I
suppose you're willing to make a number of test sticks to arrive at
one you like. Still seems like a lot of work, with potentially dire
consequences, with no guarantee of success.
I'm not sure what the equivalent agency would be on your side of the
drink, but the first people I'd ask would be my state's agricultural
department. They're the ones most familiar with the local flora, and
particularly the more problematic plants. You might find the
information on neutralizing the toxin is well known, or someone there
might be willing to do some leg work to help you out.
Good luck with it.
R
Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 11, 8:48 am, Jack Campin - bogus address
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > Jack Campin - bogus address <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >> A friend of mine made himself a very nice musical instrument
> > > >> (a harmonic whistle resembling a Hungarian tilinko) from part
> > > >> of a giant hogweed stem. [...]
> > > >> I would like to try the same, using an intact stem to make a
> > > >> longer, deeper instrument. [...]
> > >
> > > > I understand the stuff is free, but if they _paid_ me to use it,
> > > > I still wouldn't. Where's the benefit?
> > >
> > > It sounds good. Which harmonics you get, and how strong each one is,
> > > depends on fine details of the bore geometry. Whatever the exact
> > > shape of the bore of a giant hogweed might be, in practice it gives
> > > an instrument it's particularly easy to blow tunes on; I found it
> > > far preferable to the parallel bore of a conventional tilinko. The
> > > only way to reproduce that would be to X-ray a giant hogweed and use
> > > computer machining to replicate it. I don't have anything like the
> > > tools required to do that.
> >
> > What leads you believe that your hogweed stick will sound the same as
> > your friend's? If the harmonics are dependent on the fine details of
> > the bore geometry, little differences can have a big effect, so why
> > would you think you'd be able to replicate that sound? You don't know
> > what the fine details are in your friend's stick and you're assuming
> > that your stick will have the same details. Maybe, maybe not.
>
> For grass-family plants, bore geometry is highly reproducible (as in
> Chinese and Japanese flutes). Giant hogweed looks as uniform in its
> growth pattern as bamboo, so it seems worth a try.
>
> > It's also unclear what effect, if any, the brine soak had on the
> > sound.
>
> Crystalline materials are usually not good for tonal stability if you
> leave them in place - I would guess he washed it out, I'll ask. But
> soaking in simulated seawater is easy enough, if that's what it takes.
>
> One way of detoxifying it is just to leave it. The seeds were (maybe
> still are) harvested for culinary use, so presumably people didn't
> lose large areas of skin in the process - the toxins must have gone
> by late autumn. The problem with that approach is that the dead stem
> rots quite fast in damp Scottish autumn weather, the plants fall over
> around November.
>
> At least I don't already have a hypersensitivity to any other plant
> containing furanocoumarins, so I have some margin of safety.
>
> Actually I doubt this stuff is as bad in the long run as Dalbergia
> species. The irritants in those stay in the wood forever.
>
> I find one paper on the web about removing furanocoumarins from
> grapefruit juice using "food grade solvents" and absorption resins.
>
> ============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
> Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
> stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Have you thought of calling your nearest university biology department and asking
a botanist? I would think if anyone would know he'd be the one to ask.
ron
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:31:20 GMT, "Mike Dempsey"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Jack
>there are several plces where you coul try for information about giant
>hogweed.
Genesis "Nursery Crimes" track 3.
Mark
Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
> I would like to try the same, using an intact stem to make a
> longer, deeper instrument. There's plenty of giant hogweed
> growing around here, but I don't have a private ocean to dunk
> it in. Any ideas on how to detoxify the stuff at home?
Soak the newly harvested stems in brine for at least a month, changing the
water once a week.
Do not allow bare skin to contact the solution.
Then dry in an oven at about 180 F. for ten hours. Any parts of the stem that
may contact the skin should be well dressed with beeswax.
JJ
>> A friend of mine made himself a very nice musical instrument
>> (a harmonic whistle resembling a Hungarian tilinko) from part
>> of a giant hogweed stem. [...]
>> I would like to try the same, using an intact stem to make a
>> longer, deeper instrument. [...]
> I understand the stuff is free, but if they _paid_ me to use it,
> I still wouldn't. Where's the benefit?
It sounds good. Which harmonics you get, and how strong each one is,
depends on fine details of the bore geometry. Whatever the exact
shape of the bore of a giant hogweed might be, in practice it gives
an instrument it's particularly easy to blow tunes on; I found it
far preferable to the parallel bore of a conventional tilinko. The
only way to reproduce that would be to X-ray a giant hogweed and use
computer machining to replicate it. I don't have anything like the
tools required to do that.
It's also unusually light, and the ridges on the stem make for an
interesting look, like something out of a Max Ernst or H.R. Giger
picture.
> Seems to me that you could make one out of wood in any number of
> ways. If you're not limiting yourself to wood, you could expand
> the construction possibilities by quite a bit.
> How about using an acrylic tube and wrapping it with wood veneer and
> plugging the ends with solid wood or bone as required?
That would give a parallel-bore instrument, which is not what I want.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
In article <[email protected]>,
RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 11, 8:48 am, Jack Campin - bogus address
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Jack Campin - bogus address <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >> A friend of mine made himself a very nice musical instrument
> > >> (a harmonic whistle resembling a Hungarian tilinko) from part
> > >> of a giant hogweed stem. [...]
> > >> I would like to try the same, using an intact stem to make a
> > >> longer, deeper instrument. [...]
> >
> > > I understand the stuff is free, but if they _paid_ me to use it,
> > > I still wouldn't. Where's the benefit?
> >
> > It sounds good. Which harmonics you get, and how strong each one is,
> > depends on fine details of the bore geometry. Whatever the exact
> > shape of the bore of a giant hogweed might be, in practice it gives
> > an instrument it's particularly easy to blow tunes on; I found it
> > far preferable to the parallel bore of a conventional tilinko. The
> > only way to reproduce that would be to X-ray a giant hogweed and use
> > computer machining to replicate it. I don't have anything like the
> > tools required to do that.
>
> What leads you believe that your hogweed stick will sound the same as
> your friend's? If the harmonics are dependent on the fine details of
> the bore geometry, little differences can have a big effect, so why
> would you think you'd be able to replicate that sound? You don't know
> what the fine details are in your friend's stick and you're assuming
> that your stick will have the same details. Maybe, maybe not.
For grass-family plants, bore geometry is highly reproducible (as in
Chinese and Japanese flutes). Giant hogweed looks as uniform in its
growth pattern as bamboo, so it seems worth a try.
> It's also unclear what effect, if any, the brine soak had on the
> sound.
Crystalline materials are usually not good for tonal stability if you
leave them in place - I would guess he washed it out, I'll ask. But
soaking in simulated seawater is easy enough, if that's what it takes.
One way of detoxifying it is just to leave it. The seeds were (maybe
still are) harvested for culinary use, so presumably people didn't
lose large areas of skin in the process - the toxins must have gone
by late autumn. The problem with that approach is that the dead stem
rots quite fast in damp Scottish autumn weather, the plants fall over
around November.
At least I don't already have a hypersensitivity to any other plant
containing furanocoumarins, so I have some margin of safety.
Actually I doubt this stuff is as bad in the long run as Dalbergia
species. The irritants in those stay in the wood forever.
I find one paper on the web about removing furanocoumarins from
grapefruit juice using "food grade solvents" and absorption resins.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Jack
there are several plces where you coul try for information about giant
hogweed.
Scottish Agricultural College, The Macaulay Land Institute near Aberdeen,
and the Royal Botannical Gardens in Edinburgh. There is an agricultural Dept
in the Scottish Executive in Edinburgh but their exact title escapes me at
present. I am based in Glenrothes myself and are aware of the dangers of
Hogweed and remind my kids regularly of the dangers from it, although we
dont seem to have much of it around here at our local pond and river.
There is a big campaign on the go just now to eradicate it and I cant
remember who the lead agency is, it might be SEPA.
Good luck with your hunt for info.
Mike Dempsey
"r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > On Jul 11, 8:48 am, Jack Campin - bogus address
>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > > RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > > > Jack Campin - bogus address <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >> A friend of mine made himself a very nice musical instrument
>> > > >> (a harmonic whistle resembling a Hungarian tilinko) from part
>> > > >> of a giant hogweed stem. [...]
>> > > >> I would like to try the same, using an intact stem to make a
>> > > >> longer, deeper instrument. [...]
>> > >
>> > > > I understand the stuff is free, but if they _paid_ me to use it,
>> > > > I still wouldn't. Where's the benefit?
>> > >
>> > > It sounds good. Which harmonics you get, and how strong each one is,
>> > > depends on fine details of the bore geometry. Whatever the exact
>> > > shape of the bore of a giant hogweed might be, in practice it gives
>> > > an instrument it's particularly easy to blow tunes on; I found it
>> > > far preferable to the parallel bore of a conventional tilinko. The
>> > > only way to reproduce that would be to X-ray a giant hogweed and use
>> > > computer machining to replicate it. I don't have anything like the
>> > > tools required to do that.
>> >
>> > What leads you believe that your hogweed stick will sound the same as
>> > your friend's? If the harmonics are dependent on the fine details of
>> > the bore geometry, little differences can have a big effect, so why
>> > would you think you'd be able to replicate that sound? You don't know
>> > what the fine details are in your friend's stick and you're assuming
>> > that your stick will have the same details. Maybe, maybe not.
>>
>> For grass-family plants, bore geometry is highly reproducible (as in
>> Chinese and Japanese flutes). Giant hogweed looks as uniform in its
>> growth pattern as bamboo, so it seems worth a try.
>>
>> > It's also unclear what effect, if any, the brine soak had on the
>> > sound.
>>
>> Crystalline materials are usually not good for tonal stability if you
>> leave them in place - I would guess he washed it out, I'll ask. But
>> soaking in simulated seawater is easy enough, if that's what it takes.
>>
>> One way of detoxifying it is just to leave it. The seeds were (maybe
>> still are) harvested for culinary use, so presumably people didn't
>> lose large areas of skin in the process - the toxins must have gone
>> by late autumn. The problem with that approach is that the dead stem
>> rots quite fast in damp Scottish autumn weather, the plants fall over
>> around November.
>>
>> At least I don't already have a hypersensitivity to any other plant
>> containing furanocoumarins, so I have some margin of safety.
>>
>> Actually I doubt this stuff is as bad in the long run as Dalbergia
>> species. The irritants in those stay in the wood forever.
>>
>> I find one paper on the web about removing furanocoumarins from
>> grapefruit juice using "food grade solvents" and absorption resins.
>>
>> ============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk
>> ==============
>> Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660
>> 4760
>> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870
>> 0554 975
>> stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800
>> 739 557
>
> Have you thought of calling your nearest university biology department and
> asking
> a botanist? I would think if anyone would know he'd be the one to ask.
>
> ron
>