On 3/18/2017 1:23 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 3/18/2017 10:19 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:
>> On 3/17/2017 7:16 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>
>>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>>
>>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>>> carb
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Four-stroke lawn mower does not care. Empty and run dry, or add
>> stabilizer, or just park it - does not seem to matter. Starts with one
>> or two pulls, runs fine.
>>
>> Two-stroke blower, trimmer and chain saw are emptied and run until they
>> stop, with every use. Otherwise, ethanol in the gas destroys the fuel
>> line from the tank within a year.
>>
>
> "Simple" solution is to buy the pre-mixed gasoline from the 2-cycle
> companies. Made with ethanol free premium (92 octane). My Echo
> equipment starts first time, every time using it. Can has a shelf life
> of 24 (?) months once opened.
I think the solution might be more expensive than the repair. In the
Houston area the premix is between $5~$8 per "quart".
Does that have the oil premixed too?
>
> Cheaper, not as simple, mix up your 2-cycle fuel using premium, ethanol
> free gasoline if it's available in your state. Ethanol means death to
> small gasoline engines. ;)
And I have been told by many repair shops to use Echo brand oil additive
for 2 stroke engines.
On 18 Mar 2017 02:24:19 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:oahqjv$fb3$1
>@dont-email.me:
>
>>
>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>
>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>> carb
>>
>
>I think it's extremely dependent on where you live. My grandpa never
>drained fuel, I never do, a buddy of mine doesn't, and the tools seem to
>run fine after sitting for a few months.
The instructions for my tractor specifically said not to drain the
gas. It dries out the rubber bits. They did recommend a stabilizer,
which I don't bother with.
>
>In some cases, where the machine has been sitting longer I've had to
>inject fuel directly into the cylinder through the spark plug hole and
>try to get it to fire. Once it does, it usually starts pulling fuel
>through the system and runs fine. Sometimes it takes a second squirt of
>fuel.
i have used a shot of ether in the air cleaner. Also, I fill the tank
with new gas. One year my snow blower didn't want to run until the
old gas ran out but that's the worst I've had.
>
>In other areas, I've heard claims that when they let the machine sit for
>a month the fuel's already gone bad.
>
>Puckdropper
Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:oahqjv$fb3$1
@dont-email.me:
>
> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>
> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
> carb
>
I think it's extremely dependent on where you live. My grandpa never
drained fuel, I never do, a buddy of mine doesn't, and the tools seem to
run fine after sitting for a few months.
In some cases, where the machine has been sitting longer I've had to
inject fuel directly into the cylinder through the spark plug hole and
try to get it to fire. Once it does, it usually starts pulling fuel
through the system and runs fine. Sometimes it takes a second squirt of
fuel.
In other areas, I've heard claims that when they let the machine sit for
a month the fuel's already gone bad.
Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 18 Mar 2017 02:24:19 GMT, Puckdropper
> <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>>
>>I think it's extremely dependent on where you live. My grandpa never
>>drained fuel, I never do, a buddy of mine doesn't, and the tools seem
>>to run fine after sitting for a few months.
>
> The instructions for my tractor specifically said not to drain the
> gas. It dries out the rubber bits. They did recommend a stabilizer,
> which I don't bother with.
*trim*
Oh yeah, stabilizer... I don't use it. Stabilizer seems to be one of
those "doesn't hurt" products that some areas actually need but others
are just wasting money on.
Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!
On 3/18/2017 10:19 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:
> On 3/17/2017 7:16 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>
>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>
>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>> carb
>>
>>
>
> Four-stroke lawn mower does not care. Empty and run dry, or add
> stabilizer, or just park it - does not seem to matter. Starts with one
> or two pulls, runs fine.
>
> Two-stroke blower, trimmer and chain saw are emptied and run until they
> stop, with every use. Otherwise, ethanol in the gas destroys the fuel
> line from the tank within a year.
>
"Simple" solution is to buy the pre-mixed gasoline from the 2-cycle
companies. Made with ethanol free premium (92 octane). My Echo
equipment starts first time, every time using it. Can has a shelf life
of 24 (?) months once opened.
Cheaper, not as simple, mix up your 2-cycle fuel using premium, ethanol
free gasoline if it's available in your state. Ethanol means death to
small gasoline engines. ;)
On 3/18/2017 1:51 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/18/2017 1:23 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> On 3/18/2017 10:19 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:
>>> On 3/17/2017 7:16 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>
>>>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>>>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>>>
>>>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>>>> carb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Four-stroke lawn mower does not care. Empty and run dry, or add
>>> stabilizer, or just park it - does not seem to matter. Starts with one
>>> or two pulls, runs fine.
>>>
>>> Two-stroke blower, trimmer and chain saw are emptied and run until they
>>> stop, with every use. Otherwise, ethanol in the gas destroys the fuel
>>> line from the tank within a year.
>>>
>>
>> "Simple" solution is to buy the pre-mixed gasoline from the 2-cycle
>> companies. Made with ethanol free premium (92 octane). My Echo
>> equipment starts first time, every time using it. Can has a shelf life
>> of 24 (?) months once opened.
>
> I think the solution might be more expensive than the repair. In the
> Houston area the premix is between $5~$8 per "quart".
>
> Does that have the oil premixed too?
Yes, you pour it direct from the can and you're good to go.
And, yes, it is expensive. I sure wouldn't want to run a lawnmower on
the stuff, but in my case, I use it for string trimmer, leaf blower and
chain saw. Still expensive to buy but since I don't use all that much
of it, it's really not bad considering everything starts right up every
time and I can store it without worrying about degradation of the fuel
or the equipment.
For larger equipment including my emergency generator, I stick with the
premium non-ethanol gasoline. Note that I'm buying premium not for the
octane but rather for the lack of ethanol. Unavailable in all but a few
spots in Illinois but since I live close to the state line, it's easy
for me to go up and pick up 5 gallons when needed. Friggin' ethanol
destroyed one carb on the generator. Not going to happen again if I can
help it.
>>
>> Cheaper, not as simple, mix up your 2-cycle fuel using premium, ethanol
>> free gasoline if it's available in your state. Ethanol means death to
>> small gasoline engines. ;)
>
> And I have been told by many repair shops to use Echo brand oil additive
> for 2 stroke engines.
My small engine shop sells and recommends the pre-mix and non-alcohol
fuel for ALL their small engines. They also recommend "Sea Foam" over
Sta-Bil. I still use Sta-bil in the gasoline stored in Jerry cans for
the generator but always use Sea Foam in the last tank of gas in the
fall and first tank in the spring.
I don't know how much difference Echo brand oil would make in the fuel
equation, but what could it hurt other than, maybe, your wallet. I
think that if you get rid of the alcohol you've gotten rid of 95% of the
problem.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> You do not need gas stabilizer,,,,until you do. Bigger cities that
> have pollution problems tend to use fuels that seem more prone to go
> bad.
>
> My 30 year old Honda never needed special stabilized gas,,,, until it
> did, starting about 6~7 years ago. Still runs like a top with a
> single pull to get it started after using gas stabilizers.
>
> Just because you have not had gas issues does not dictate what other
> regions of the country experience.
>
>
>
Now that you mention bigger cities, I wonder if their special blends
(AKA wallet lining) of pollution control fuels introduce additives that
need stabilizer.
Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!
Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
*snip*
>
> True enough. Just wondering what those other experiences are? Pgh
> weather is all over the place, from hot and humid to cold and dry?
> I guess northern Alaska or the desert might get significantly extreme
> weather that could effect things, but most weather experienced in the
> US also occurs in Pgh. I think more likely it is the Texas gas, or
> even more likely, the imagination and hype.
>
What's your averages? We run about 55-60F with 40-60% RH on average for
the year. The range is more like 0-100F, with 30-100% RH normal.
Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
*snip*
>
> When everything you see has a warning label on
> it, the warning label no longer provides
> information.
>
*snip*
I can't recall if it was a joke or an actual happenstance, but I seem to
recall something where warning labels were recalled because they
contained products known to the state of California to cause cancer or
other reproductive harm.
I do remember certain gel candles were recalled because they would catch
on fire.
Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!
On 3/20/2017 4:18 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 3/20/2017 11:10 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Interesting. I have a 40 year old chain saw, and a 20 year old weed
>>> wacker. For years I mixed regular gas and regular NON-detergent, 20
>>> weight oil in the gas at I think 16-1 ratio. The mixture would sit for
>>> YEARS before being used up, and never had a problem.
>>>
>
>> Jack - you live a charmed life ! .. and I'm truly happy for you.
>
> I reckon. My brother also leads a charmed life. Couple of others in
> here also lead a "charmed life" as they also don't have a problem. At
> some point, certainly after 60+ years, I think there is more than
> "charmed life" going on.
Absolutely, no knowledge of how other areas of the country deal with
real and specific problems.
>
>> But for those of us who aren't quite so lucky - the link below is
>> what Honda advises.
> http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/eu-generator-fuel-recommendations
>
>
> A quick reading of that link leads me to call total hogwash on that.
> Number 4 says:
> "If you do not plan to operate the generator frequently (less than once
> a month), drain the carburetor following the directions shown in the
> owners manual."
>
> That is about as stupid as it gets. If it's true, and it isn't, I would
> never buy a Honda generator as there is something drastically wrong with
> an engine that needs gas less than 1 month old.
I suspect that all new power equipment has this statement.
Stihl Page 22
https://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/instructionmanuals/038_Manual.pdf
Echo Page 26
http://www.echo-usa.com/getattachment/91de015a-c958-430b-8393-bf69b4411437/GT225es111226_032213.pdf
>
> By all means do what ever floats your boat. Simply sharing my personal,
> first hand experiences.
As are we.
I doubt Luck is any part of the picture. No
> one gets away with 60+ years of luck, with so much varied equipment.
>
I have no doubt that you are having spectacular results with how ever
you are dealing. Bring your equipment to Houston and buy gas here and
you will understand after a few years.
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 13:23:25 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/18/2017 10:19 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:
>> On 3/17/2017 7:16 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>
>>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>>
>>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>>> carb
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Four-stroke lawn mower does not care. Empty and run dry, or add
>> stabilizer, or just park it - does not seem to matter. Starts with one
>> or two pulls, runs fine.
>>
>> Two-stroke blower, trimmer and chain saw are emptied and run until they
>> stop, with every use. Otherwise, ethanol in the gas destroys the fuel
>> line from the tank within a year.
>>
>
>"Simple" solution is to buy the pre-mixed gasoline from the 2-cycle
>companies. Made with ethanol free premium (92 octane). My Echo
>equipment starts first time, every time using it. Can has a shelf life
>of 24 (?) months once opened.
I found the "simple" solution was to buy 4-cycle tools. ;-)
>
>Cheaper, not as simple, mix up your 2-cycle fuel using premium, ethanol
>free gasoline if it's available in your state. Ethanol means death to
>small gasoline engines. ;)
>
On 3/20/2017 9:23 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 3/19/2017 1:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/19/2017 9:21 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 3/18/2017 2:27 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh yeah, stabilizer... I don't use it. Stabilizer seems to be one of
>>>> those "doesn't hurt" products that some areas actually need but others
>>>> are just wasting money
>>>
>>> Agreed, although not sure what areas you need stabilizer?
>>> I live in Pgh Pa where the weather ranges from 20 below to over 100, so
>>> the climate seems to be a non-issue.
>>>
>>> Over the past 60+ years my brother an I have owned over 16 gas powered
>>> machines. Most of them we still have and use, none of them have we ever
>>> used stabilizer or drained the gas. Never had a problem.
>>>
>>> My brother, who at one time was a chemical engineer for Gulf Research,
>>> said oil companies put additives in gas that keep it good for long
>>> periods of time. Gas turning to varnish is probably something that you
>>> needed to wring your hands over pre-1950-60's. I don't think they had
>>> stabilizer then, when it was needed.
>>>
>>> I will add that a friend of my brother gave him an old snow blower that
>>> didn't run. There was no gas in it and the carburetor was all gummed
>>> up. Turns out the guy USED stabilizer in it, let the gas dry up and the
>>> stabilizer turned into gum. The main thing I guess is don't let the gas
>>> evaporate if you use stabilizer.
>>>
>>> The other issue I never worry about is keep the tank full, otherwise
>>> water vapor will condense and you get water in your gas. Never worried
>>> about that either, and never had a problem.
>>>
>>> Oh, our 1954 and 1956 Gravely Tractors and my 1975 Sears chainsaw can be
>>> hard to start, have been that way since birth. A squirt of ether cures
>>> that. Older equipment has inferior electrical systems and can be hard
>>> to start. Newer stuff seems to fire up first pull. My lawnmower, which
>>> I rarely use, has 2 year old gas in it, and it starts first pull every
>>> time.
>>>
>>> Of course, my 60+ years of first hand experience shouldn't stop anyone
>>> from wringing their hands and buying the hype, but since EC asked, I
>>> shared...
>>
>>
>> You do not need gas stabilizer,,,,until you do.
>
> 60 years of not needing stabilizer seems somewhat significant.
>
> Bigger cities that have
>> pollution problems tend to use fuels that seem more prone to go bad.
>
> I live in Pgh. Pa., actually Allegheny County. It is not well known for
> it's pollution free environment, particularly when steel mills lived
> here. Also not particularly small, with population of over a million
> it's considered large.
A tiny town compared to the Houston metro area and the pollution we are
talking about is from gasoline engines. Pittsburgh is about 5% of Houston.
>
>> My 30 year old Honda never needed special stabilized gas,,,, until it
>> did, starting about 6~7 years ago.
>
> Our 61 year old Gravely never needed special stabilized gas, and still
> doesn't. Perhaps Texas is selling inferior gas to the rest of the country?
Special formula gas.
>
> Still runs like a top with a single
>> pull to get it started after using gas stabilizers.
>
> All our equipment runs like a top, some of it for over 60 years. None
> of it is Honda though, perhaps Honda has a defect that requires brand
> new inferior Texas gas?
New Honda's probably do have defects, the have been tweaked to prevent
cancer in California.
>
>> Just because you have not had gas issues does not dictate what other
>> regions of the country experience.
>
> True enough. Just wondering what those other experiences are? Pgh
> weather is all over the place, from hot and humid to cold and dry?
> I guess northern Alaska or the desert might get significantly extreme
> weather that could effect things, but most weather experienced in the US
> also occurs in Pgh. I think more likely it is the Texas gas, or even
> more likely, the imagination and hype.
>
Not the imagination when you have to use the additives to keep the
equipment running. I did not start with additives but ended up there.
On 3/18/2017 10:19 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:
> On 3/17/2017 7:16 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>
>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>
>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>> carb
>>
>>
>
> Four-stroke lawn mower does not care. Empty and run dry, or add
> stabilizer, or just park it - does not seem to matter. Starts with one
> or two pulls, runs fine.
In Houston my 30 year old Honda likes gas stabilizer, no wasted gas
bought 2 gallons at a time. And that can sit over the winter.
>
> Two-stroke blower, trimmer and chain saw are emptied and run until they
> stop, with every use. Otherwise, ethanol in the gas destroys the fuel
> line from the tank within a year.
>
I use Echo 2 strokes and mine is 10 years old. I leave fuel in it
through the season but try to drain and run dry for the winter if I am
not going to use if for more than 2 months.
As a tip from my repair guy, only use Premium fuel. Some Premium fuels
do not have ethanol/alcohol added.
On 3/19/2017 9:21 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 3/18/2017 2:27 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>
>> Oh yeah, stabilizer... I don't use it. Stabilizer seems to be one of
>> those "doesn't hurt" products that some areas actually need but others
>> are just wasting money
>
> Agreed, although not sure what areas you need stabilizer?
> I live in Pgh Pa where the weather ranges from 20 below to over 100, so
> the climate seems to be a non-issue.
>
> Over the past 60+ years my brother an I have owned over 16 gas powered
> machines. Most of them we still have and use, none of them have we ever
> used stabilizer or drained the gas. Never had a problem.
>
> My brother, who at one time was a chemical engineer for Gulf Research,
> said oil companies put additives in gas that keep it good for long
> periods of time. Gas turning to varnish is probably something that you
> needed to wring your hands over pre-1950-60's. I don't think they had
> stabilizer then, when it was needed.
>
> I will add that a friend of my brother gave him an old snow blower that
> didn't run. There was no gas in it and the carburetor was all gummed
> up. Turns out the guy USED stabilizer in it, let the gas dry up and the
> stabilizer turned into gum. The main thing I guess is don't let the gas
> evaporate if you use stabilizer.
>
> The other issue I never worry about is keep the tank full, otherwise
> water vapor will condense and you get water in your gas. Never worried
> about that either, and never had a problem.
>
> Oh, our 1954 and 1956 Gravely Tractors and my 1975 Sears chainsaw can be
> hard to start, have been that way since birth. A squirt of ether cures
> that. Older equipment has inferior electrical systems and can be hard
> to start. Newer stuff seems to fire up first pull. My lawnmower, which
> I rarely use, has 2 year old gas in it, and it starts first pull every
> time.
>
> Of course, my 60+ years of first hand experience shouldn't stop anyone
> from wringing their hands and buying the hype, but since EC asked, I
> shared...
You do not need gas stabilizer,,,,until you do. Bigger cities that have
pollution problems tend to use fuels that seem more prone to go bad.
My 30 year old Honda never needed special stabilized gas,,,, until it
did, starting about 6~7 years ago. Still runs like a top with a single
pull to get it started after using gas stabilizers.
Just because you have not had gas issues does not dictate what other
regions of the country experience.
Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>On 3/20/2017 7:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/20/2017 4:45 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> Well, anything over 300,000 is considered large.
>>
>> Maybe to you. I grew up in corpus Christi, Tx. I consider it a
>> small place, 305,000.
>
>Not to me, the National league of Cities.
Leon did, indeed, qualify his statement. He made no claims about
either you, or the National League of Cities.
[snip NLoC URL]
>
>You want to argue that, you can tell them.
I don't believe Leon indicated any desire to argue the topic with
anyone, much less the National League of Cities.
>> That is why we have the special fuels that don't last.
>
>A great reason to not live in Houston Metro. If my gas suddenly started
>to go bad like it used to in the 1920's, I'd be looking for some
What relevence do the 1920's have in this context? Not even you
were driving then.
>explanations from someone. Is everything in Texas this backward?
What's your problem? There are many places in the country that require
special fuel blends for various reasons (climate, smog abatement, politics, et
alia).
>Perhaps all the chemical plants are affecting judgement?
Or perhaps you simply don't understand the problem and the current
set of solutions.
>
>Would seem to me that if adding stabilizers to fuel fixed the problem,
>then why on earth would the refractories not do it for you, like they
>have been doing for us for over 50 years?
You do realize, I'm sure, that you are posting in a thread which is
discussing the long-term storage of gasoline motor fuels, right? Why
would the refineries want to spend to add an additive to all gasoline when the
by far vast majority of it is burned up with a few days of refining?
>
>At any rate, just because Houston has problems, doesn't mean the rest of
>the country does.
But it does. Look at any large metro area, whether it is the NYC area,
Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix, Los Angeles or the SF bay area - all of which
use fuel blends designed to reduce smog. Even Davenport Iowa, hardly
a large metro area, has mostly E15 and E85 blends - both of which are
difficult to store over long periods without causing problems in two-stroke
carbourated engines (primarily due to the propensity of the alcohol to
adsorb water).
On 3/20/2017 4:45 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 3/20/2017 2:23 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/20/2017 9:23 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 3/19/2017 1:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/19/2017 9:21 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>> On 3/18/2017 2:27 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh yeah, stabilizer... I don't use it. Stabilizer seems to be one of
>>>>>> those "doesn't hurt" products that some areas actually need but
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> are just wasting money
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed, although not sure what areas you need stabilizer?
>>>>> I live in Pgh Pa where the weather ranges from 20 below to over
>>>>> 100, so
>>>>> the climate seems to be a non-issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Over the past 60+ years my brother an I have owned over 16 gas powered
>>>>> machines. Most of them we still have and use, none of them have we
>>>>> ever
>>>>> used stabilizer or drained the gas. Never had a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> My brother, who at one time was a chemical engineer for Gulf Research,
>>>>> said oil companies put additives in gas that keep it good for long
>>>>> periods of time. Gas turning to varnish is probably something that
>>>>> you
>>>>> needed to wring your hands over pre-1950-60's. I don't think they had
>>>>> stabilizer then, when it was needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will add that a friend of my brother gave him an old snow blower
>>>>> that
>>>>> didn't run. There was no gas in it and the carburetor was all gummed
>>>>> up. Turns out the guy USED stabilizer in it, let the gas dry up and
>>>>> the
>>>>> stabilizer turned into gum. The main thing I guess is don't let the
>>>>> gas
>>>>> evaporate if you use stabilizer.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other issue I never worry about is keep the tank full, otherwise
>>>>> water vapor will condense and you get water in your gas. Never
>>>>> worried
>>>>> about that either, and never had a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, our 1954 and 1956 Gravely Tractors and my 1975 Sears chainsaw
>>>>> can be
>>>>> hard to start, have been that way since birth. A squirt of ether
>>>>> cures
>>>>> that. Older equipment has inferior electrical systems and can be hard
>>>>> to start. Newer stuff seems to fire up first pull. My lawnmower,
>>>>> which
>>>>> I rarely use, has 2 year old gas in it, and it starts first pull every
>>>>> time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, my 60+ years of first hand experience shouldn't stop anyone
>>>>> from wringing their hands and buying the hype, but since EC asked, I
>>>>> shared...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You do not need gas stabilizer,,,,until you do.
>>>
>>> 60 years of not needing stabilizer seems somewhat significant.
>>>
>>> Bigger cities that have
>>>> pollution problems tend to use fuels that seem more prone to go bad.
>>>
>>> I live in Pgh. Pa., actually Allegheny County. It is not well known for
>>> it's pollution free environment, particularly when steel mills lived
>>> here. Also not particularly small, with population of over a million
>>> it's considered large.
>>
>> A tiny town compared to the Houston metro area and the pollution we are
>> talking about is from gasoline engines. Pittsburgh is about 5% of
>> Houston.
>
> Well, anything over 300,000 is considered large.
Maybe to you. ;~) I grew up in corpus Christi, Tx. I consider it a
small place, 305,000.
Houston is 626 sq
> miles with population of 2.2 million. Allegheny County is 745 sq miles
> with a population of 1.2 million. Closer to 50% than 5% I think.
> Still, don't see what that has to do with anything as far as gas going
> stale is concerned.
I said, Houston Metro, 6 million. That would be 8,928 square miles, 12
times larger than Allegheny County. Houston encompasses at least 9
small cities and is adjacent to probably a dozen others. And the metro
area includes everything between Houston and Galveston with little open
land to distinguish city limits.
That is why we have the special fuels that don't last.
Snip
>>>
>>
>> Not the imagination when you have to use the additives to keep the
>> equipment running. I did not start with additives but ended up there.
>
> True that. All I could add is if you own Honda, or buy gas in Houston,
> use gas stabilizer.
>
Or any other brand yard equipment.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >
> >Yeah, and California has statements cancer warnings plastered on
> >everything. Doesn't make it true.
>
> Only on substances that are known to the medical world to cause
> or influence the progression of cancer or other adverse conditions.
The trouble is that according to the state of
californica just about every substance known to
man is "known to the medical world to cause or
influence the progression of cancer or ther
adverse conditions".
I mean in the real world how many people have
gotten cancer from electrical cords?
> It is about the consumer
> having enough information to make informed choices. You may
> discount the evidence at will, nobody is forcing you to read
> the notice. Feel free use all the lead pipe you want for
> your drinking water - clearly there isn't any problem with it
> in Pennsylvania - Lead must work differently there than everywhere
> else.
When everything you see has a warning label on
it, the warning label no longer provides
information.
> > None of my newer stuff has had a
> >problem with "stale gas" either. Two John Deer tractors and a snow
> >blower bought in the last 5 years and no problems whatsoever.
>
> Wow. Proof by single ancecote. Damn, I gotta get one of those
> tractors now.
>
> BTW - I'm not a big fan of Houston, particularly in the summer,
> but your ignorance of the rest of the country is appalling.
>
> FWIW: As gas gets old, it turns to varnish and clogs up the passageways inside the carburetor, not allowing enough gas to get to the engine.
> http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-24652.html
In article <58d1bafc$0$57961$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6
@news.astraweb.com>, Puckdropper says...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
> >
> > When everything you see has a warning label on
> > it, the warning label no longer provides
> > information.
> >
> *snip*
>
> I can't recall if it was a joke or an actual happenstance, but I seem to
> recall something where warning labels were recalled because they
> contained products known to the state of California to cause cancer or
> other reproductive harm.
>
> I do remember certain gel candles were recalled because they would catch
> on fire.
>
> Puckdropper
My favorite is the packages of peanuts, clearly
labeled as such, that in addition to the label,
say say "WARNING: Contains peanuts".
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> >[email protected] says...
> >>
> >> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Yeah, and California has statements cancer warnings plastered on
> >> >everything. Doesn't make it true.
> >>
> >> Only on substances that are known to the medical world to cause
> >> or influence the progression of cancer or other adverse conditions.
> >
> >The trouble is that according to the state of
> >californica just about every substance known to
> >man is "known to the medical world to cause or
> >influence the progression of cancer or ther
> >adverse conditions".
> >
> >I mean in the real world how many people have
> >gotten cancer from electrical cords?
>
> In over thirty years living in California, I've never seen
> an electrical cord with a prop 65 notice. I have seen
> brass plumbing fittings which are alloyed with lead marked
> with the prop 65 notice.
I've seen them and I don't even live in
California so you must not be paying attention.
Here's an example:
<http://s935.photobucket.com/user/Dartmouthmtb/m
edia/cord-made-in-china_zpscb359dc2.gif.html>
> >> It is about the consumer
> >> having enough information to make informed choices. You may
> >> discount the evidence at will, nobody is forcing you to read
> >> the notice. Feel free use all the lead pipe you want for
> >> your drinking water - clearly there isn't any problem with it
> >> in Pennsylvania - Lead must work differently there than everywhere
> >> else.
> >
> >When everything you see has a warning label on
> >it, the warning label no longer provides
> >information.
>
> See, here is where your logic fails, since everything
> _doesn't_ have a warning label.
And there's that excessive literal-mindedness
which makes you such an pain in the butt to try
to converse with. You've missed the point
entirely.
On 3/17/2017 7:54 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 7:17:02 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>
>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>> carb
>
> Always put Stabil in all my small engine fuel. Store tool in garage for the winter, engines usually start with reasonable effort in the spring. Other than my 40 year old Dolmar chainsaw...it always gives me fits...
>
Same here. Snowblower with year old gas started on first pull.
On 3/22/2017 8:55 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 3/21/2017 1:06 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>>> On 3/20/2017 7:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/20/2017 4:45 PM, Jack wrote:
>>
>>>>> Well, anything over 300,000 is considered large.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe to you. I grew up in corpus Christi, Tx. I consider it a
>>>> small place, 305,000.
>>>
>>> Not to me, the National league of Cities.
>>
>> Leon did, indeed, qualify his statement. He made no claims about
>> either you, or the National League of Cities.
>
> Perhaps you missed where he said "Maybe to you" I simply clarified it
> was not my claim, it was the National League of Cities claim. According
> to them, any city over 300,000 is a very, very large city.
If any city over 300K is sited as a very, very large city.... Houston
should be classified as a very very very very very very very very very
very very very large state.
>
>>> You want to argue that, you can tell them.
>>
>> I don't believe Leon indicated any desire to argue the topic with
>> anyone, much less the National League of Cities.
>
> By disagreeing with my statement he is in reality arguing with me. I
> simply pointed out it was the opinion of the National League of Cities
> he was arguing with, not me.
>
>>>> That is why we have the special fuels that don't last.
>>>
>>> A great reason to not live in Houston Metro. If my gas suddenly started
>>> to go bad like it used to in the 1920's, I'd be looking for some
>>
>> What relevence do the 1920's have in this context? Not even you
>> were driving then.
>
> Fuel went bad in the early days. Since then, refineries have developed
> methods to keep fuel from going bad so quickly. I know this from 1st
> hand experience, and from my brother, who worked in a research lab for
> Gulf Oil as a Chemical engineer. No need to drive cars in the 1920's to
> have a clue.
>
>>> explanations from someone. Is everything in Texas this backward?
>>
>> What's your problem? There are many places in the country that require
>> special fuel blends for various reasons (climate, smog abatement,
>> politics, et
>> alia).
>
> I don't have a problem, my engines have been running like a top with no
> stabilizer whatsoever for over 60 years. How about your's?
If that is true, you should sell them, I am sure the manufacturers would
want them back to see why they last that long. You could get millions
of dollars for the rare specimens.
>
>>> Perhaps all the chemical plants are affecting judgement?
>>
>> Or perhaps you simply don't understand the problem and the current
>> set of solutions.
>
> Right, I'm not a chemical engineer in a major oil companies lab. My
> brother was, and he uses no stabilizer in his engines w/o a problem.
I bet you brother would be better at explaining, to you, why stabilizers
are need for most all small engines that are used in very very very very
very very very very very very very very large states.
>
>>> Would seem to me that if adding stabilizers to fuel fixed the problem,
>>> then why on earth would the refractories not do it for you, like they
>>> have been doing for us for over 50 years?
>>
>> You do realize, I'm sure, that you are posting in a thread which is
>> discussing the long-term storage of gasoline motor fuels, right?
>
> Welp, Honda apparently thinks anything over a month old requires adding
> stabilizer. If your fuel goes bad in a month, I'd say you are storing
> it out doors in the rain without a lid...
Honda, Stihl. Brigs & Strattem. Echo, Toro, Kawasaki, Milwaukee
Robinson, just to name a few.
>
> Why
>> would the refineries want to spend to add an additive to all gasoline
>> when the
>> by far vast majority of it is burned up with a few days of refining?
>
> I dunno, ask them, they have been putting additives in fuel for a very,
> very long time. If one company sold fuel that lasted a month before
> gumming up your engine, and another fuel that lasted a year, at the same
> price, what do you think would happen in a competitive economy?
>
>>> At any rate, just because Houston has problems, doesn't mean the rest of
>>> the country does.
>
>> But it does.
>
> But it doesn't.
Jack you live in a relatively small area that does not have chronic
pollution caused by gasoline engines. You are just being belligerent at
this point. I suggest you do some research on your own as you don't
believe 99% of anything that differs from you "Opinion".
>
> Look at any large metro area, whether it is the NYC area,
>> Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix, Los Angeles or the SF bay area - all of which
>> use fuel blends designed to reduce smog.
>
> As I'm sure Pgh. also does. It is after all, a "large" city with a
> history of pollution.
I think I clarified that this if pollution caused by vehicles.
So what? Are you saying because areas have
> pollution, refineries quit adding additives to fuel to make it last more
> than a month? If so, what evidence do you have of that? I have 60+
> years of experience that says it ain't so in my "very large", polluted
> city. You have a silly ass manual written by a marketing/lawyer team at
> Honda with no empirical evidence, which holds as much weight as a cancer
> warning on a plastic flashlight in California...
Now you are just being stupid.
Larry Kraus <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/17/2017 7:16 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> >
> > only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
> > practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
> >
> > do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
> > carb
> >
> >
>
> Four-stroke lawn mower does not care. Empty and run dry, or add
> stabilizer, or just park it - does not seem to matter. Starts with one
> or two pulls, runs fine.
>
> Two-stroke blower, trimmer and chain saw are emptied and run until they
> stop, with every use. Otherwise, ethanol in the gas destroys the fuel
> line from the tank within a year.
http://www.pure-gas.org
"Welcome to the definitive list of stations that sell pure,
ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada!"
On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 7:17:02 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>
> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
> carb
Always put Stabil in all my small engine fuel. Store tool in garage for the winter, engines usually start with reasonable effort in the spring. Other than my 40 year old Dolmar chainsaw...it always gives me fits...
>
>only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>carb
>
I use fuel stabilizer - year round. on sale = ~ $ 15 per year.
.. a few little 6 ounce containers will go a long way.
My 2 lawn mowers < 20 hp rider and 4 hp push > always start
well in the springtime after ~ 6 months <southern Canada>
I have never drained the gas ; I sometimes run the 4 hp B&S
out of gas at the end of autumn - not the rider..
The portable generator - 10 hp Honda - emergency use only -
I always test run it at 3 - 4 month intervals - I left it for 6
months once and it didn't like it. I have drained the tank
~ twice in 17 years - bought it used in 1999 - can't say it
matters. When test running it, I will run it for 15 - 20 minutes and
put some load on it - and usually turn off the gas valve & let it
run the carb dry, before storage.
This is just my experience.
Tiny fussy engines - like weed whackers or chainsaws always
seem to give more trouble - I don't own either.
The times that I've helped-out with firewood - the chainsaw guy
is either really good or really bad
with starting their chainsaw. My theory is that the really bad guys
are flooding it.
John T.
Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>
>Yeah, and California has statements cancer warnings plastered on
>everything. Doesn't make it true.
Only on substances that are known to the medical world to cause
or influence the progression of cancer or other adverse conditions.
It is about the consumer
having enough information to make informed choices. You may
discount the evidence at will, nobody is forcing you to read
the notice. Feel free use all the lead pipe you want for
your drinking water - clearly there isn't any problem with it
in Pennsylvania - Lead must work differently there than everywhere
else.
> None of my newer stuff has had a
>problem with "stale gas" either. Two John Deer tractors and a snow
>blower bought in the last 5 years and no problems whatsoever.
Wow. Proof by single ancecote. Damn, I gotta get one of those
tractors now.
BTW - I'm not a big fan of Houston, particularly in the summer,
but your ignorance of the rest of the country is appalling.
FWIW: As gas gets old, it turns to varnish and clogs up the passageways inside the carburetor, not allowing enough gas to get to the engine.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-24652.html
Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>On 3/21/2017 1:17 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>> Yeah, and California has statements cancer warnings plastered on
>>> everything. Doesn't make it true.
>>
>> Only on substances that are known to the medical world to cause
>> or influence the progression of cancer or other adverse conditions.
>
>Like if I eat my plastic flashlight I might eventually develop cancer?
Go ahead and eat it. I don't give a shit what you do. I do wish
to have all the information available to me so I can make an informed
choice.
Please cite a flashlight that comes with a prop 65
warning. If you can, which I find unlikely, you'll find that, just
perhaps, the plastic may contain Bisphenol A.
From the Mayo Clinic:
"Some research has shown that BPA can seep into food or beverages
from containers that are made with BPA. Exposure to BPA is a concern
because of possible health effects of BPA on the brain, behavior and
prostate gland of fetuses, infants and children. Additional research
suggests a possible link between BPA and increased blood pressure."
>
>> It is about the consumer
>> having enough information to make informed choices.
>
>No, it's about hand wringing fools assuming stupid stuff, and plastering
>dire warnings on everything in site.
I can cite a site that is quite a sight.
>
>You may
>> discount the evidence at will, nobody is forcing you to read
>> the notice.
>
>The problem of course is after a few million stupid, misleading warning
>labels, no one pays any attention to them, so if one is actually true,
>it is ignored.
>
>Feel free use all the lead pipe you want for
>> your drinking water - clearly there isn't any problem with it
>> in Pennsylvania - Lead must work differently there than everywhere
>> else.
>
>WTF are you going on about?
You're the one that brought up prop 65.
>
>16 plus small engines over 60 years w/o stabilizer, 3 rather new, w/o
>nary a problem is hardly a single anecdote.
Actually, it is by definition.
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:20:01 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 13:33:11 -0500
>Markem <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> As is replacing all the fuel lines made of rubber and rebuilding the
>> carburetion system with gaskets that are good with alcohol, otherwise
>> the gas just leaks out all over.
>
>for a motorcycle what choice do you have
Buy alcohol-free gas? AIUI, most premium is (a political thing).
>you have to burn ethanol fuel since that is all there is now with some
>scattered places offering ethanol-free
It's available all over here. That's what I use in my tools. It's
expensive but not completely outrageous.
>and further it is hard to confirm ethanol-free
>
>
>maybe avgas would do
...and you then real gas is expensive!
>
>Interesting. I have a 40 year old chain saw, and a 20 year old weed
>wacker. For years I mixed regular gas and regular NON-detergent, 20
>weight oil in the gas at I think 16-1 ratio. The mixture would sit for
>YEARS before being used up, and never had a problem.
>
Jack - you live a charmed life ! .. and I'm truly happy for you.
But for those of us who aren't quite so lucky - the link below is
what Honda advises.
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/eu-generator-fuel-recommendations
John T.
"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> "Simple" solution is to buy the pre-mixed gasoline from the 2-cycle
>> companies. Made with ethanol free premium (92 octane). My Echo
>> equipment starts first time, every time using it. Can has a shelf life
>> of 24 (?) months once opened.
>
> I think the solution might be more expensive than the repair. In the
> Houston area the premix is between $5~$8 per "quart".
FYI, Gallons of pre-mix at Lowes is $20. That's the only fuel I put in
my 2-strokes.
Dave in SoTex
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:16:38 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>
>do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>carb
A gas treatment is your best friend.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>>
>> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> >
>> >Yeah, and California has statements cancer warnings plastered on
>> >everything. Doesn't make it true.
>>
>> Only on substances that are known to the medical world to cause
>> or influence the progression of cancer or other adverse conditions.
>
>The trouble is that according to the state of
>californica just about every substance known to
>man is "known to the medical world to cause or
>influence the progression of cancer or ther
>adverse conditions".
>
>I mean in the real world how many people have
>gotten cancer from electrical cords?
In over thirty years living in California, I've never seen
an electrical cord with a prop 65 notice. I have seen
brass plumbing fittings which are alloyed with lead marked
with the prop 65 notice.
>
>> It is about the consumer
>> having enough information to make informed choices. You may
>> discount the evidence at will, nobody is forcing you to read
>> the notice. Feel free use all the lead pipe you want for
>> your drinking water - clearly there isn't any problem with it
>> in Pennsylvania - Lead must work differently there than everywhere
>> else.
>
>When everything you see has a warning label on
>it, the warning label no longer provides
>information.
See, here is where your logic fails, since everything
_doesn't_ have a warning label.
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 02:24:19 +0000, Puckdropper wrote:
> Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:oahqjv$fb3$1
> @dont-email.me:
>
>
>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>
>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>> carb
>>
>>
> I think it's extremely dependent on where you live. My grandpa never
> drained fuel, I never do, a buddy of mine doesn't, and the tools seem to
> run fine after sitting for a few months.
>
> In some cases, where the machine has been sitting longer I've had to
> inject fuel directly into the cylinder through the spark plug hole and
> try to get it to fire. Once it does, it usually starts pulling fuel
> through the system and runs fine. Sometimes it takes a second squirt of
> fuel.
>
> In other areas, I've heard claims that when they let the machine sit for
> a month the fuel's already gone bad.
>
> Puckdropper
Old fuel will go bad. Really old fuel will turn into "varnish". This
varnish will coat the inside of your carburetor and fuel lines. It can
also
coat the inside of your fuel tank.
An easy way to detect for a varnished fuel system is to sniff with your
nose. With the engine OFF, get close to your carburetor and sniff. If it
smells like varnish, the carb will have to be rebuilt. Don't even waste
your time spraying carb cleaner into the carb, it won't help.
Once a carb is varnished it has to be disassembled and physically scrubbed
out. The varnished fuel is stubborn and it clogs the small passages and
jets. Running an engine with a varnished carb is very bad. It will cause
the engine to run lean and this can cause serious internal cylinder and
piston damage.
All it takes for fuel to varnish is about 10 to 18 months of sitting.
Temperature and other factors will have an effect on the level of
varnishing. Fuel additives can help prevent varnishing but don't do the
common mistake and add too much fuel conditioner. Follow the instructions
on the bottle.
Once the inside of your fuel tank becomes varnished you have a big problem.
The varnished areas along the upper sides and top of the tank can dry up.
The dried varnish turns into flakes and these flakes will clog your fuel
system.
--
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 10:50:53 -0500
Markem <[email protected]> wrote:
> A gas treatment is your best friend.
have some of this now but i am too late
so far have the four stroke running again
next i deal with the two stroke
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 20:12:07 -0400
[email protected] wrote:
> I use fuel stabilizer - year round. on sale = ~ $ 15 per year.
> .. a few little 6 ounce containers will go a long way.
not sure what stabilizer is or does i have some fuel treatment for
next time
> put some load on it - and usually turn off the gas valve & let it
> run the carb dry, before storage.
need to add a valve and do this as i think this is the most sure fire
way
> Tiny fussy engines - like weed whackers or chainsaws always
> seem to give more trouble - I don't own either.
yeah the two stroke is next now that the four stroke is running
combustion engines seem archaic compared to electric but you cannot
beat the power and portability and operation time
but they are loud
On 3/18/2017 2:27 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Oh yeah, stabilizer... I don't use it. Stabilizer seems to be one of
> those "doesn't hurt" products that some areas actually need but others
> are just wasting money
Agreed, although not sure what areas you need stabilizer?
I live in Pgh Pa where the weather ranges from 20 below to over 100, so
the climate seems to be a non-issue.
Over the past 60+ years my brother an I have owned over 16 gas powered
machines. Most of them we still have and use, none of them have we ever
used stabilizer or drained the gas. Never had a problem.
My brother, who at one time was a chemical engineer for Gulf Research,
said oil companies put additives in gas that keep it good for long
periods of time. Gas turning to varnish is probably something that you
needed to wring your hands over pre-1950-60's. I don't think they had
stabilizer then, when it was needed.
I will add that a friend of my brother gave him an old snow blower that
didn't run. There was no gas in it and the carburetor was all gummed
up. Turns out the guy USED stabilizer in it, let the gas dry up and the
stabilizer turned into gum. The main thing I guess is don't let the gas
evaporate if you use stabilizer.
The other issue I never worry about is keep the tank full, otherwise
water vapor will condense and you get water in your gas. Never worried
about that either, and never had a problem.
Oh, our 1954 and 1956 Gravely Tractors and my 1975 Sears chainsaw can be
hard to start, have been that way since birth. A squirt of ether cures
that. Older equipment has inferior electrical systems and can be hard
to start. Newer stuff seems to fire up first pull. My lawnmower, which
I rarely use, has 2 year old gas in it, and it starts first pull every time.
Of course, my 60+ years of first hand experience shouldn't stop anyone
from wringing their hands and buying the hype, but since EC asked, I
shared...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/18/2017 11:41 AM, Trenbidia wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 02:24:19 +0000, Puckdropper wrote:
>
>> Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote in news:oahqjv$fb3$1
>> @dont-email.me:
>>
>>
>>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>>
>>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>>> carb
>>>
>>>
>> I think it's extremely dependent on where you live. My grandpa never
>> drained fuel, I never do, a buddy of mine doesn't, and the tools seem to
>> run fine after sitting for a few months.
>>
>> In some cases, where the machine has been sitting longer I've had to
>> inject fuel directly into the cylinder through the spark plug hole and
>> try to get it to fire. Once it does, it usually starts pulling fuel
>> through the system and runs fine. Sometimes it takes a second squirt of
>> fuel.
>>
>> In other areas, I've heard claims that when they let the machine sit for
>> a month the fuel's already gone bad.
>>
>> Puckdropper
>
> Old fuel will go bad. Really old fuel will turn into "varnish". This
> varnish will coat the inside of your carburetor and fuel lines. It can
> also
> coat the inside of your fuel tank.
>
> An easy way to detect for a varnished fuel system is to sniff with your
> nose. With the engine OFF, get close to your carburetor and sniff. If it
> smells like varnish, the carb will have to be rebuilt. Don't even waste
> your time spraying carb cleaner into the carb, it won't help.
>
> Once a carb is varnished it has to be disassembled and physically scrubbed
> out. The varnished fuel is stubborn and it clogs the small passages and
> jets. Running an engine with a varnished carb is very bad. It will cause
> the engine to run lean and this can cause serious internal cylinder and
> piston damage.
>
> All it takes for fuel to varnish is about 10 to 18 months of sitting.
> Temperature and other factors will have an effect on the level of
> varnishing. Fuel additives can help prevent varnishing but don't do the
> common mistake and add too much fuel conditioner. Follow the instructions
> on the bottle.
>
> Once the inside of your fuel tank becomes varnished you have a big problem.
> The varnished areas along the upper sides and top of the tank can dry up.
> The dried varnish turns into flakes and these flakes will clog your fuel
> system.
>
Everything you say makes sense, except my experience over the past 60
years says hogwash. It would be rare I'd keep gas over 2 years in any of
my equipment, but I have done it w/o a problem. This year, my lawn
mower gas will be 3 years old, as it was 2 years old last year and
started first pull. Still has the same tank of gas, I expect it will
start first pull again. I think the varnish issue is mostly left over
from the early days of gas refineries, otherwise none of my equipment
would be starting with out a problem.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/19/2017 1:00 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/19/2017 9:21 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 3/18/2017 2:27 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>
>>> Oh yeah, stabilizer... I don't use it. Stabilizer seems to be one of
>>> those "doesn't hurt" products that some areas actually need but others
>>> are just wasting money
>>
>> Agreed, although not sure what areas you need stabilizer?
>> I live in Pgh Pa where the weather ranges from 20 below to over 100, so
>> the climate seems to be a non-issue.
>>
>> Over the past 60+ years my brother an I have owned over 16 gas powered
>> machines. Most of them we still have and use, none of them have we ever
>> used stabilizer or drained the gas. Never had a problem.
>>
>> My brother, who at one time was a chemical engineer for Gulf Research,
>> said oil companies put additives in gas that keep it good for long
>> periods of time. Gas turning to varnish is probably something that you
>> needed to wring your hands over pre-1950-60's. I don't think they had
>> stabilizer then, when it was needed.
>>
>> I will add that a friend of my brother gave him an old snow blower that
>> didn't run. There was no gas in it and the carburetor was all gummed
>> up. Turns out the guy USED stabilizer in it, let the gas dry up and the
>> stabilizer turned into gum. The main thing I guess is don't let the gas
>> evaporate if you use stabilizer.
>>
>> The other issue I never worry about is keep the tank full, otherwise
>> water vapor will condense and you get water in your gas. Never worried
>> about that either, and never had a problem.
>>
>> Oh, our 1954 and 1956 Gravely Tractors and my 1975 Sears chainsaw can be
>> hard to start, have been that way since birth. A squirt of ether cures
>> that. Older equipment has inferior electrical systems and can be hard
>> to start. Newer stuff seems to fire up first pull. My lawnmower, which
>> I rarely use, has 2 year old gas in it, and it starts first pull every
>> time.
>>
>> Of course, my 60+ years of first hand experience shouldn't stop anyone
>> from wringing their hands and buying the hype, but since EC asked, I
>> shared...
>
>
> You do not need gas stabilizer,,,,until you do.
60 years of not needing stabilizer seems somewhat significant.
Bigger cities that have
> pollution problems tend to use fuels that seem more prone to go bad.
I live in Pgh. Pa., actually Allegheny County. It is not well known for
it's pollution free environment, particularly when steel mills lived
here. Also not particularly small, with population of over a million
it's considered large.
> My 30 year old Honda never needed special stabilized gas,,,, until it
> did, starting about 6~7 years ago.
Our 61 year old Gravely never needed special stabilized gas, and still
doesn't. Perhaps Texas is selling inferior gas to the rest of the country?
Still runs like a top with a single
> pull to get it started after using gas stabilizers.
All our equipment runs like a top, some of it for over 60 years. None
of it is Honda though, perhaps Honda has a defect that requires brand
new inferior Texas gas?
> Just because you have not had gas issues does not dictate what other
> regions of the country experience.
True enough. Just wondering what those other experiences are? Pgh
weather is all over the place, from hot and humid to cold and dry?
I guess northern Alaska or the desert might get significantly extreme
weather that could effect things, but most weather experienced in the US
also occurs in Pgh. I think more likely it is the Texas gas, or even
more likely, the imagination and hype.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/20/2017 7:02 AM, Dave in SoTex wrote:
>
> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>> "Simple" solution is to buy the pre-mixed gasoline from the 2-cycle
>>> companies. Made with ethanol free premium (92 octane). My Echo
>>> equipment starts first time, every time using it. Can has a shelf life
>>> of 24 (?) months once opened.
>>
>> I think the solution might be more expensive than the repair. In the
>> Houston area the premix is between $5~$8 per "quart".
>
> FYI, Gallons of pre-mix at Lowes is $20. That's the only fuel I put
> in my 2-strokes.
Interesting. I have a 40 year old chain saw, and a 20 year old weed
wacker. For years I mixed regular gas and regular NON-detergent, 20
weight oil in the gas at I think 16-1 ratio. The mixture would sit for
YEARS before being used up, and never had a problem. The last thing I
would do is pay $5-$8 a quart for pre mixed gas? $25 for $3 worth of
gas... Makes no sense to me. It is a good idea go heavy on the oil. I
think I went a bit overboard but all that does is smoke a bit more.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/20/2017 11:10 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> Interesting. I have a 40 year old chain saw, and a 20 year old weed
>> wacker. For years I mixed regular gas and regular NON-detergent, 20
>> weight oil in the gas at I think 16-1 ratio. The mixture would sit for
>> YEARS before being used up, and never had a problem.
>>
> Jack - you live a charmed life ! .. and I'm truly happy for you.
I reckon. My brother also leads a charmed life. Couple of others in
here also lead a "charmed life" as they also don't have a problem. At
some point, certainly after 60+ years, I think there is more than
"charmed life" going on.
> But for those of us who aren't quite so lucky - the link below is
> what Honda advises.
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/eu-generator-fuel-recommendations
A quick reading of that link leads me to call total hogwash on that.
Number 4 says:
"If you do not plan to operate the generator frequently (less than once
a month), drain the carburetor following the directions shown in the
owners manual."
That is about as stupid as it gets. If it's true, and it isn't, I would
never buy a Honda generator as there is something drastically wrong with
an engine that needs gas less than 1 month old.
By all means do what ever floats your boat. Simply sharing my personal,
first hand experiences. I doubt Luck is any part of the picture. No
one gets away with 60+ years of luck, with so much varied equipment.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/20/2017 11:41 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>>
>> True enough. Just wondering what those other experiences are? Pgh
>> weather is all over the place, from hot and humid to cold and dry?
>> I guess northern Alaska or the desert might get significantly extreme
>> weather that could effect things, but most weather experienced in the
>> US also occurs in Pgh. I think more likely it is the Texas gas, or
>> even more likely, the imagination and hype.
>>
>
> What's your averages? We run about 55-60F with 40-60% RH on average for
> the year. The range is more like 0-100F, with 30-100% RH normal.
>
> Puckdropper
>
Pittsburgh weather averages
Annual high temperature: 61.4°F
Annual low temperature: 42.6°F
Average temperature: 52°F
Average annual precipitation - rainfall: 34.8 inch
The range is from -20 to around 105. this is from memory, could be a few
degrees different. Averages mean something I guess, but if it is 0 for
6 months and 100 for 6 months, the average is 50, so averages don't
paint a clear picture by themselves. I really doubt weather or
pollution has anything at all to do with it. If you need additives in
your gas, I'm thinking it is a problem more with your gas than anything
else. I doubt gas in Pgh has needed more additives than the refinery
puts in our gas for over 50 years. Oh, both my, and my brothers
equipment lives in unheated garage/shed, so weather could effect things,
but doesn't seem too at all.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/20/2017 2:23 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/20/2017 9:23 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 3/19/2017 1:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/19/2017 9:21 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> On 3/18/2017 2:27 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Oh yeah, stabilizer... I don't use it. Stabilizer seems to be one of
>>>>> those "doesn't hurt" products that some areas actually need but others
>>>>> are just wasting money
>>>>
>>>> Agreed, although not sure what areas you need stabilizer?
>>>> I live in Pgh Pa where the weather ranges from 20 below to over 100, so
>>>> the climate seems to be a non-issue.
>>>>
>>>> Over the past 60+ years my brother an I have owned over 16 gas powered
>>>> machines. Most of them we still have and use, none of them have we ever
>>>> used stabilizer or drained the gas. Never had a problem.
>>>>
>>>> My brother, who at one time was a chemical engineer for Gulf Research,
>>>> said oil companies put additives in gas that keep it good for long
>>>> periods of time. Gas turning to varnish is probably something that you
>>>> needed to wring your hands over pre-1950-60's. I don't think they had
>>>> stabilizer then, when it was needed.
>>>>
>>>> I will add that a friend of my brother gave him an old snow blower that
>>>> didn't run. There was no gas in it and the carburetor was all gummed
>>>> up. Turns out the guy USED stabilizer in it, let the gas dry up and the
>>>> stabilizer turned into gum. The main thing I guess is don't let the gas
>>>> evaporate if you use stabilizer.
>>>>
>>>> The other issue I never worry about is keep the tank full, otherwise
>>>> water vapor will condense and you get water in your gas. Never worried
>>>> about that either, and never had a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, our 1954 and 1956 Gravely Tractors and my 1975 Sears chainsaw
>>>> can be
>>>> hard to start, have been that way since birth. A squirt of ether cures
>>>> that. Older equipment has inferior electrical systems and can be hard
>>>> to start. Newer stuff seems to fire up first pull. My lawnmower, which
>>>> I rarely use, has 2 year old gas in it, and it starts first pull every
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, my 60+ years of first hand experience shouldn't stop anyone
>>>> from wringing their hands and buying the hype, but since EC asked, I
>>>> shared...
>>>
>>>
>>> You do not need gas stabilizer,,,,until you do.
>>
>> 60 years of not needing stabilizer seems somewhat significant.
>>
>> Bigger cities that have
>>> pollution problems tend to use fuels that seem more prone to go bad.
>>
>> I live in Pgh. Pa., actually Allegheny County. It is not well known for
>> it's pollution free environment, particularly when steel mills lived
>> here. Also not particularly small, with population of over a million
>> it's considered large.
>
> A tiny town compared to the Houston metro area and the pollution we are
> talking about is from gasoline engines. Pittsburgh is about 5% of Houston.
Well, anything over 300,000 is considered large. Houston is 626 sq
miles with population of 2.2 million. Allegheny County is 745 sq miles
with a population of 1.2 million. Closer to 50% than 5% I think.
Still, don't see what that has to do with anything as far as gas going
stale is concerned.
>>> My 30 year old Honda never needed special stabilized gas,,,, until it
>>> did, starting about 6~7 years ago.
>>
>> Our 61 year old Gravely never needed special stabilized gas, and still
>> doesn't. Perhaps Texas is selling inferior gas to the rest of the
>> country?
>
> Special formula gas.
>
>>
>> Still runs like a top with a single
>>> pull to get it started after using gas stabilizers.
>>
>> All our equipment runs like a top, some of it for over 60 years. None
>> of it is Honda though, perhaps Honda has a defect that requires brand
>> new inferior Texas gas?
>
> New Honda's probably do have defects, the have been tweaked to prevent
> cancer in California.
>
>
>
>>
>>> Just because you have not had gas issues does not dictate what other
>>> regions of the country experience.
>>
>> True enough. Just wondering what those other experiences are? Pgh
>> weather is all over the place, from hot and humid to cold and dry?
>> I guess northern Alaska or the desert might get significantly extreme
>> weather that could effect things, but most weather experienced in the US
>> also occurs in Pgh. I think more likely it is the Texas gas, or even
>> more likely, the imagination and hype.
>>
>
> Not the imagination when you have to use the additives to keep the
> equipment running. I did not start with additives but ended up there.
True that. All I could add is if you own Honda, or buy gas in Houston,
use gas stabilizer.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/20/2017 7:32 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/20/2017 4:45 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 3/20/2017 2:23 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/20/2017 9:23 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> On 3/19/2017 1:00 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/19/2017 9:21 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/18/2017 2:27 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh yeah, stabilizer... I don't use it. Stabilizer seems to be
>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>> those "doesn't hurt" products that some areas actually need but
>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>> are just wasting money
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed, although not sure what areas you need stabilizer?
>>>>>> I live in Pgh Pa where the weather ranges from 20 below to over
>>>>>> 100, so
>>>>>> the climate seems to be a non-issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Over the past 60+ years my brother an I have owned over 16 gas
>>>>>> powered
>>>>>> machines. Most of them we still have and use, none of them have we
>>>>>> ever
>>>>>> used stabilizer or drained the gas. Never had a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My brother, who at one time was a chemical engineer for Gulf
>>>>>> Research,
>>>>>> said oil companies put additives in gas that keep it good for long
>>>>>> periods of time. Gas turning to varnish is probably something that
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> needed to wring your hands over pre-1950-60's. I don't think they
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> stabilizer then, when it was needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will add that a friend of my brother gave him an old snow blower
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> didn't run. There was no gas in it and the carburetor was all gummed
>>>>>> up. Turns out the guy USED stabilizer in it, let the gas dry up and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> stabilizer turned into gum. The main thing I guess is don't let the
>>>>>> gas
>>>>>> evaporate if you use stabilizer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other issue I never worry about is keep the tank full, otherwise
>>>>>> water vapor will condense and you get water in your gas. Never
>>>>>> worried
>>>>>> about that either, and never had a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, our 1954 and 1956 Gravely Tractors and my 1975 Sears chainsaw
>>>>>> can be
>>>>>> hard to start, have been that way since birth. A squirt of ether
>>>>>> cures
>>>>>> that. Older equipment has inferior electrical systems and can be
>>>>>> hard
>>>>>> to start. Newer stuff seems to fire up first pull. My lawnmower,
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> I rarely use, has 2 year old gas in it, and it starts first pull
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, my 60+ years of first hand experience shouldn't stop
>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>> from wringing their hands and buying the hype, but since EC asked, I
>>>>>> shared...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You do not need gas stabilizer,,,,until you do.
>>>>
>>>> 60 years of not needing stabilizer seems somewhat significant.
>>>>
>>>> Bigger cities that have
>>>>> pollution problems tend to use fuels that seem more prone to go bad.
>>>>
>>>> I live in Pgh. Pa., actually Allegheny County. It is not well known
>>>> for
>>>> it's pollution free environment, particularly when steel mills lived
>>>> here. Also not particularly small, with population of over a million
>>>> it's considered large.
>>>
>>> A tiny town compared to the Houston metro area and the pollution we are
>>> talking about is from gasoline engines. Pittsburgh is about 5% of
>>> Houston.
>>
>> Well, anything over 300,000 is considered large.
>
> Maybe to you. I grew up in corpus Christi, Tx. I consider it a
> small place, 305,000.
Not to me, the National league of Cities. I found it on-line when
looking up population and and square miles of various cities. Note it
says "very large" not simply "large" ;~)
http://www.nlc.org/number-of-municipal-governments-population-distribution
"The U.S.'s 19,492 municipal governments range in population size from
very large (over 300,000) to very small (under 1,000). The vast
majority (over 90%) of municipal governments in the U.S. have
populations under 25,000."
You want to argue that, you can tell them.
> Houston is 626 sq
>> miles with population of 2.2 million. Allegheny County is 745 sq miles
>> with a population of 1.2 million. Closer to 50% than 5% I think.
>> Still, don't see what that has to do with anything as far as gas going
>> stale is concerned.
>
>
>
> I said, Houston Metro, 6 million. That would be 8,928 square miles, 12
> times larger than Allegheny County. Houston encompasses at least 9
> small cities and is adjacent to probably a dozen others. And the metro
> area includes everything between Houston and Galveston with little open
> land to distinguish city limits.
>
> That is why we have the special fuels that don't last.
A great reason to not live in Houston Metro. If my gas suddenly started
to go bad like it used to in the 1920's, I'd be looking for some
explanations from someone. Is everything in Texas this backward?
Perhaps all the chemical plants are affecting judgement?
Would seem to me that if adding stabilizers to fuel fixed the problem,
then why on earth would the refractories not do it for you, like they
have been doing for us for over 50 years?
At any rate, just because Houston has problems, doesn't mean the rest of
the country does.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snip
>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not the imagination when you have to use the additives to keep the
>>> equipment running. I did not start with additives but ended up there.
>>
>> True that. All I could add is if you own Honda, or buy gas in Houston,
>> use gas stabilizer.
>>
> Or any other brand yard equipment.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/20/2017 7:53 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/20/2017 4:18 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 3/20/2017 11:10 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting. I have a 40 year old chain saw, and a 20 year old weed
>>>> wacker. For years I mixed regular gas and regular NON-detergent, 20
>>>> weight oil in the gas at I think 16-1 ratio. The mixture would sit for
>>>> YEARS before being used up, and never had a problem.
>>>>
>>
>>> Jack - you live a charmed life ! .. and I'm truly happy for you.
>>
>> I reckon. My brother also leads a charmed life. Couple of others in
>> here also lead a "charmed life" as they also don't have a problem. At
>> some point, certainly after 60+ years, I think there is more than
>> "charmed life" going on.
>
> Absolutely, no knowledge of how other areas of the country deal with
> real and specific problems.
>
>
>
>>
>>> But for those of us who aren't quite so lucky - the link below is
>>> what Honda advises.
>> http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/eu-generator-fuel-recommendations
>>
>>
>>
>> A quick reading of that link leads me to call total hogwash on that.
>> Number 4 says:
>> "If you do not plan to operate the generator frequently (less than once
>> a month), drain the carburetor following the directions shown in the
>> owners manual."
>>
>> That is about as stupid as it gets. If it's true, and it isn't, I would
>> never buy a Honda generator as there is something drastically wrong with
>> an engine that needs gas less than 1 month old.
>
> I suspect that all new power equipment has this statement.
Yeah, and California has statements cancer warnings plastered on
everything. Doesn't make it true. None of my newer stuff has had a
problem with "stale gas" either. Two John Deer tractors and a snow
blower bought in the last 5 years and no problems whatsoever.
> Stihl Page 22
> https://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/instructionmanuals/038_Manual.pdf
My Brother has a Stihl chainsaw, and has no problem with old gas.
> Echo Page 26
> http://www.echo-usa.com/getattachment/91de015a-c958-430b-8393-bf69b4411437/GT225es111226_032213.pdf
>>
>> By all means do what ever floats your boat. Simply sharing my personal,
>> first hand experiences.
>
> As are we.
True enough. My recommendation is move out of Texas, where the gas lasts
about a month, according to your sources.
> I doubt Luck is any part of the picture. No
>> one gets away with 60+ years of luck, with so much varied equipment.
>>
> I have no doubt that you are having spectacular results with how ever
> you are dealing. Bring your equipment to Houston and buy gas here and
> you will understand after a few years.
I don't want to go to Houston, and have to deal with all the problems.
Why don't you come to Pgh where we have no such problems, and can safely
ignore the fanatical rants on Honda literature, and our engines need no
special treatments to start easily and last for decades, even with year
old gas.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/21/2017 1:06 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>> On 3/20/2017 7:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/20/2017 4:45 PM, Jack wrote:
>
>>>> Well, anything over 300,000 is considered large.
>>>
>>> Maybe to you. I grew up in corpus Christi, Tx. I consider it a
>>> small place, 305,000.
>>
>> Not to me, the National league of Cities.
>
> Leon did, indeed, qualify his statement. He made no claims about
> either you, or the National League of Cities.
Perhaps you missed where he said "Maybe to you" I simply clarified it
was not my claim, it was the National League of Cities claim. According
to them, any city over 300,000 is a very, very large city.
>> You want to argue that, you can tell them.
>
> I don't believe Leon indicated any desire to argue the topic with
> anyone, much less the National League of Cities.
By disagreeing with my statement he is in reality arguing with me. I
simply pointed out it was the opinion of the National League of Cities
he was arguing with, not me.
>>> That is why we have the special fuels that don't last.
>>
>> A great reason to not live in Houston Metro. If my gas suddenly started
>> to go bad like it used to in the 1920's, I'd be looking for some
>
> What relevence do the 1920's have in this context? Not even you
> were driving then.
Fuel went bad in the early days. Since then, refineries have developed
methods to keep fuel from going bad so quickly. I know this from 1st
hand experience, and from my brother, who worked in a research lab for
Gulf Oil as a Chemical engineer. No need to drive cars in the 1920's to
have a clue.
>> explanations from someone. Is everything in Texas this backward?
>
> What's your problem? There are many places in the country that require
> special fuel blends for various reasons (climate, smog abatement, politics, et
> alia).
I don't have a problem, my engines have been running like a top with no
stabilizer whatsoever for over 60 years. How about your's?
>> Perhaps all the chemical plants are affecting judgement?
>
> Or perhaps you simply don't understand the problem and the current
> set of solutions.
Right, I'm not a chemical engineer in a major oil companies lab. My
brother was, and he uses no stabilizer in his engines w/o a problem.
>> Would seem to me that if adding stabilizers to fuel fixed the problem,
>> then why on earth would the refractories not do it for you, like they
>> have been doing for us for over 50 years?
>
> You do realize, I'm sure, that you are posting in a thread which is
> discussing the long-term storage of gasoline motor fuels, right?
Welp, Honda apparently thinks anything over a month old requires adding
stabilizer. If your fuel goes bad in a month, I'd say you are storing
it out doors in the rain without a lid...
Why
> would the refineries want to spend to add an additive to all gasoline when the
> by far vast majority of it is burned up with a few days of refining?
I dunno, ask them, they have been putting additives in fuel for a very,
very long time. If one company sold fuel that lasted a month before
gumming up your engine, and another fuel that lasted a year, at the same
price, what do you think would happen in a competitive economy?
>> At any rate, just because Houston has problems, doesn't mean the rest of
>> the country does.
> But it does.
But it doesn't.
Look at any large metro area, whether it is the NYC area,
> Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix, Los Angeles or the SF bay area - all of which
> use fuel blends designed to reduce smog.
As I'm sure Pgh. also does. It is after all, a "large" city with a
history of pollution. So what? Are you saying because areas have
pollution, refineries quit adding additives to fuel to make it last more
than a month? If so, what evidence do you have of that? I have 60+
years of experience that says it ain't so in my "very large", polluted
city. You have a silly ass manual written by a marketing/lawyer team at
Honda with no empirical evidence, which holds as much weight as a cancer
warning on a plastic flashlight in California...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/21/2017 1:17 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>> Yeah, and California has statements cancer warnings plastered on
>> everything. Doesn't make it true.
>
> Only on substances that are known to the medical world to cause
> or influence the progression of cancer or other adverse conditions.
Like if I eat my plastic flashlight I might eventually develop cancer?
> It is about the consumer
> having enough information to make informed choices.
No, it's about hand wringing fools assuming stupid stuff, and plastering
dire warnings on everything in site.
You may
> discount the evidence at will, nobody is forcing you to read
> the notice.
The problem of course is after a few million stupid, misleading warning
labels, no one pays any attention to them, so if one is actually true,
it is ignored.
Feel free use all the lead pipe you want for
> your drinking water - clearly there isn't any problem with it
> in Pennsylvania - Lead must work differently there than everywhere
> else.
WTF are you going on about? 60+ years of not using stabilizer w/o a
problem to using lead pipes in our drinking water... Have you gone off
your meds?
>> None of my newer stuff has had a
>> problem with "stale gas" either. Two John Deer tractors and a snow
>> blower bought in the last 5 years and no problems whatsoever.
>
> Wow. Proof by single ancecote. Damn, I gotta get one of those
> tractors now.
16 plus small engines over 60 years w/o stabilizer, 3 rather new, w/o
nary a problem is hardly a single anecdote.
> BTW - I'm not a big fan of Houston, particularly in the summer,
> but your ignorance of the rest of the country is appalling.
I didn't know I was discussing the rest of country, other than where I
live and what I looked up regarding the population of Pgh and Houston.
California's stupid warning labels is common knowledge to about everyone
on earth.
> FWIW: As gas gets old, it turns to varnish and clogs up the passageways inside the carburetor, not allowing enough gas to get to the engine.
> http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-24652.html
We were talking about gas from a month old (Honda) to 2 years old.
Nobody said anything about 40 year old gas. Mostly gas left to winter
over in a small engines. I've gone a few years in 2 cycle gas for weed
wacker and chainsaws. Making no claims about 30-40 year old gas...
Well, yeah, if you are going to put stabilizer in your gas, make sure it
doesn't dry up and turn into a gummy mess. I mentioned earlier that a
guy gave my brother an old snow blower that he had stored with
stabilizer in it, and it wouldn't run. Had to tear down the carburetor
and clean out the gummy mess.
So, the only time in over 60 years we had a problem with gas, was when
someone had put stabilizer in it. THAT is perhaps anecdotal, but true
nonetheless.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/22/2017 11:11 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/22/2017 8:55 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 3/21/2017 1:06 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>>>> On 3/20/2017 7:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/20/2017 4:45 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Well, anything over 300,000 is considered large.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe to you. I grew up in corpus Christi, Tx. I consider it a
>>>>> small place, 305,000.
>>>>
>>>> Not to me, the National league of Cities.
>>>
>>> Leon did, indeed, qualify his statement. He made no claims about
>>> either you, or the National League of Cities.
>>
>> Perhaps you missed where he said "Maybe to you" I simply clarified it
>> was not my claim, it was the National League of Cities claim. According
>> to them, any city over 300,000 is a very, very large city.
>
> If any city over 300K is sited as a very, very large city.... Houston
> should be classified as a very very very very very very very very very
> very very very large state.
Again, you want to argue with National League of cities be my guest. I
simply repeated their claim, and gave the link so you can argue all you
want.
>>>> You want to argue that, you can tell them.
>>>
>>> I don't believe Leon indicated any desire to argue the topic with
>>> anyone, much less the National League of Cities.
>>
>> By disagreeing with my statement he is in reality arguing with me. I
>> simply pointed out it was the opinion of the National League of Cities
>> he was arguing with, not me.
>>
>>>>> That is why we have the special fuels that don't last.
>>>>
>>>> A great reason to not live in Houston Metro. If my gas suddenly started
>>>> to go bad like it used to in the 1920's, I'd be looking for some
>>>
>>> What relevence do the 1920's have in this context? Not even you
>>> were driving then.
>>
>> Fuel went bad in the early days. Since then, refineries have developed
>> methods to keep fuel from going bad so quickly. I know this from 1st
>> hand experience, and from my brother, who worked in a research lab for
>> Gulf Oil as a Chemical engineer. No need to drive cars in the 1920's to
>> have a clue.
>>
>>>> explanations from someone. Is everything in Texas this backward?
>>>
>>> What's your problem? There are many places in the country that require
>>> special fuel blends for various reasons (climate, smog abatement,
>>> politics, et
>>> alia).
>>
>> I don't have a problem, my engines have been running like a top with no
>> stabilizer whatsoever for over 60 years. How about your's?
>
> If that is true, you should sell them, I am sure the manufacturers would
> want them back to see why they last that long. You could get millions
> of dollars for the rare specimens.
Please do tell? We would be more than happy to sell any of our old
equipment that still runs like a top w/o stabilizers to anyone that
wishes to part with the millions you so flippantly speak of.
>>>> Perhaps all the chemical plants are affecting judgement?
>>>
>>> Or perhaps you simply don't understand the problem and the current
>>> set of solutions.
>>
>> Right, I'm not a chemical engineer in a major oil companies lab. My
>> brother was, and he uses no stabilizer in his engines w/o a problem.
>
>
> I bet you brother would be better at explaining, to you, why stabilizers
> are need for most all small engines that are used in very very very very
> very very very very very very very very large states.
>
>
>>
>>>> Would seem to me that if adding stabilizers to fuel fixed the problem,
>>>> then why on earth would the refractories not do it for you, like they
>>>> have been doing for us for over 50 years?
>>>
>>> You do realize, I'm sure, that you are posting in a thread which is
>>> discussing the long-term storage of gasoline motor fuels, right?
>>
>> Welp, Honda apparently thinks anything over a month old requires adding
>> stabilizer. If your fuel goes bad in a month, I'd say you are storing
>> it out doors in the rain without a lid...
>
> Honda, Stihl. Brigs & Strattem. Echo, Toro, Kawasaki, Milwaukee
> Robinson, just to name a few.
I never doubted they didn't warn to use stabilizer for gas over a month
old, I just stated in my experience it was hogwash.
>> Why
>>> would the refineries want to spend to add an additive to all gasoline
>>> when the
>>> by far vast majority of it is burned up with a few days of refining?
>>
>> I dunno, ask them, they have been putting additives in fuel for a very,
>> very long time. If one company sold fuel that lasted a month before
>> gumming up your engine, and another fuel that lasted a year, at the same
>> price, what do you think would happen in a competitive economy?
>>
>>>> At any rate, just because Houston has problems, doesn't mean the
>>>> rest of
>>>> the country does.
>>
>>> But it does.
>>
>> But it doesn't.
>
> Jack you live in a relatively small area that does not have chronic
> pollution caused by gasoline engines. You are just being belligerent at
> this point. I suggest you do some research on your own as you don't
> believe 99% of anything that differs from you "Opinion".
Not my opinion, my 60+ years of first hand experience. I don't doubt
Houston could be so polluted that gas can't live there more than a
month, or that Houston gas has had to put crap in the gas that causes it
to rot in a month or so unless the buyer puts in additives that makes it
last and last. I'm just really, really, really, really skeptical.
>> Look at any large metro area, whether it is the NYC area,
>>> Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix, Los Angeles or the SF bay area - all of which
>>> use fuel blends designed to reduce smog.
>> As I'm sure Pgh. also does. It is after all, a "large" city with a
>> history of pollution.
>
> I think I clarified that this if pollution caused by vehicles.
>
>
> So what? Are you saying because areas have
>> pollution, refineries quit adding additives to fuel to make it last more
>> than a month? If so, what evidence do you have of that? I have 60+
>> years of experience that says it ain't so in my "very large", polluted
>> city. You have a silly ass manual written by a marketing/lawyer team at
>> Honda with no empirical evidence, which holds as much weight as a cancer
>> warning on a plastic flashlight in California...
>
>
> Now you are just being stupid.
So you have zero information regarding refineries no longer adding
additives to make fuel last more than a month, requiring users to add
such stuff? Who'd thunk.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/22/2017 11:27 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>> On 3/21/2017 1:17 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>>> Yeah, and California has statements cancer warnings plastered on
>>>> everything. Doesn't make it true.
>>>
>>> Only on substances that are known to the medical world to cause
>>> or influence the progression of cancer or other adverse conditions.
>>
>> Like if I eat my plastic flashlight I might eventually develop cancer?
>
> Go ahead and eat it. I don't give a shit what you do. I do wish
> to have all the information available to me so I can make an informed
> choice.
>
> Please cite a flashlight that comes with a prop 65
> warning.
Can't, I never heard of prop 65. I, thankfully, don't live in the land
of fruits and nuts.
If you can, which I find unlikely, you'll find that, just
> perhaps, the plastic may contain Bisphenol A.
Regardless of what it contains, I had no plans on eating a flashlight.
>
> From the Mayo Clinic:
>
> "Some research has shown that BPA can seep into food or beverages
> from containers that are made with BPA. Exposure to BPA is a concern
> because of possible health effects of BPA on the brain, behavior and
> prostate gland of fetuses, infants and children. Additional research
> suggests a possible link between BPA and increased blood pressure."
>
>>
>>> It is about the consumer
>>> having enough information to make informed choices.
>>
>> No, it's about hand wringing fools assuming stupid stuff, and plastering
>> dire warnings on everything in site.
>
> I can cite a site that is quite a sight.
>> You may
>>> discount the evidence at will, nobody is forcing you to read
>>> the notice.
>>
>> The problem of course is after a few million stupid, misleading warning
>> labels, no one pays any attention to them, so if one is actually true,
>> it is ignored.
>>
>> Feel free use all the lead pipe you want for
>>> your drinking water - clearly there isn't any problem with it
>>> in Pennsylvania - Lead must work differently there than everywhere
>>> else.
>>
>> WTF are you going on about?
>
> You're the one that brought up prop 65.
Never bought up prop 65, don't even know, or want to know what it is.
>> 16 plus small engines over 60 years w/o stabilizer, 3 rather new, w/o
>> nary a problem is hardly a single anecdote.
>
> Actually, it is by definition.
I guess it depends on what your definition of is is, or it is, or
something equally ridiculous...
Could it be you ignored the warnings of eating too much lead?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:16:38 -0700
Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote:
> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
also seems that i used gas oil mix for two strokes in the four stroke
so maybe that has created the problem
might explain the greenish buildup i found in the carb float
found a fellow online that separates the ethanol out since his goldwing
does not like ethanol
seems like a lot trouble to go to though
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 13:33:11 -0500
Markem <[email protected]> wrote:
> As is replacing all the fuel lines made of rubber and rebuilding the
> carburetion system with gaskets that are good with alcohol, otherwise
> the gas just leaks out all over.
for a motorcycle what choice do you have
you have to burn ethanol fuel since that is all there is now with some
scattered places offering ethanol-free
and further it is hard to confirm ethanol-free
maybe avgas would do
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:16:38 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>
>do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>carb
Nothing. Well, the last time I use them, I do shut them off. ;-) I
just dump the remaining gas in the cans into my truck. I put in new
oil in the spring and I'm off and running. I've never had a problem
starting the engine in the spring. I did have a bad battery and spark
plug last year and I'll have to change all the belts on my tractor
this year but I don't to anything else.
On 3/19/2017 2:03 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> You do not need gas stabilizer,,,,until you do. Bigger cities that
>> have pollution problems tend to use fuels that seem more prone to go
>> bad.
>>
>> My 30 year old Honda never needed special stabilized gas,,,, until it
>> did, starting about 6~7 years ago. Still runs like a top with a
>> single pull to get it started after using gas stabilizers.
>>
>> Just because you have not had gas issues does not dictate what other
>> regions of the country experience.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Now that you mention bigger cities, I wonder if their special blends
> (AKA wallet lining) of pollution control fuels introduce additives that
> need stabilizer.
>
> Puckdropper
>
No doubt at all. Houston has a winter and "special" summer formula.
All I know is that for years I did not have to use stabilizer additives
for 2 cycle or 4 cycle gas. And in the last 10 or so years I do have to
use the stabilizer if I buy more than a seasons worth of gas.
My dad bought a new Honda lawn mower about 12 years ago, it replaced his
other 12 year old Honda. The new one passes California emissions but is
sold in all states. He immediately had problems with the new one and
even had to have the carb replaced within the first year.
He had to start using additives in his new mower.
It seems, the newer the equipment, the more Californicated they are and
less tolerant of less then fresh fuel.
On 18 Mar 2017 06:27:29 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 18 Mar 2017 02:24:19 GMT, Puckdropper
>> <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I think it's extremely dependent on where you live. My grandpa never
>>>drained fuel, I never do, a buddy of mine doesn't, and the tools seem
>>>to run fine after sitting for a few months.
>>
>> The instructions for my tractor specifically said not to drain the
>> gas. It dries out the rubber bits. They did recommend a stabilizer,
>> which I don't bother with.
>
>*trim*
>
>Oh yeah, stabilizer... I don't use it. Stabilizer seems to be one of
>those "doesn't hurt" products that some areas actually need but others
>are just wasting money on.
I've done the same in VT, AL, and GT, so that covers a lot of areas. I
think the problem is the gas not spoiling but drying out and leaving
gunk in the carb. Water won't help but fresh gas and perhaps some
cranking should clear water or "bad" gas.
On 3/22/2017 8:18 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> Jack <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, and California has statements cancer warnings plastered on
>>>> everything. Doesn't make it true.
>>>
>>> Only on substances that are known to the medical world to cause
>>> or influence the progression of cancer or other adverse conditions.
>>
>> The trouble is that according to the state of
>> californica just about every substance known to
>> man is "known to the medical world to cause or
>> influence the progression of cancer or ther
>> adverse conditions".
>>
>> I mean in the real world how many people have
>> gotten cancer from electrical cords?
>
> In over thirty years living in California, I've never seen
> an electrical cord with a prop 65 notice. I have seen
> brass plumbing fittings which are alloyed with lead marked
> with the prop 65 notice.
Ahhh. That explains brass hose fittings and garden sprinklers. Thanks!
I also have wondered if the chemicals/lubricants used in the
manufacturing could cause cancer for the factory workers, and was a
warning that the manufacturing of the product was the problem, not
necessarily to the end user.
On 3/17/2017 7:16 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>
> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>
> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
> carb
>
>
Four-stroke lawn mower does not care. Empty and run dry, or add
stabilizer, or just park it - does not seem to matter. Starts with one
or two pulls, runs fine.
Two-stroke blower, trimmer and chain saw are emptied and run until they
stop, with every use. Otherwise, ethanol in the gas destroys the fuel
line from the tank within a year.
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 12:11:05 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>Regardless of what it contains, I had no plans on eating a flashlight.
One where the plastic is made from corn starch, with the right spicing
might be edible!
"It's a joke son" to quote Foghorn Leghorn.
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:53:59 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:16:38 -0700
>Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>
>also seems that i used gas oil mix for two strokes in the four stroke
>so maybe that has created the problem
>
>might explain the greenish buildup i found in the carb float
>
>found a fellow online that separates the ethanol out since his goldwing
>does not like ethanol
>
>seems like a lot trouble to go to though
As is replacing all the fuel lines made of rubber and rebuilding the
carburetion system with gaskets that are good with alcohol, otherwise
the gas just leaks out all over.
On 3/18/2017 10:50 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 3/18/2017 1:51 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/18/2017 1:23 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>>> On 3/18/2017 10:19 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:
>>>> On 3/17/2017 7:16 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> only have two gas powered tools and apparently i do not follow best
>>>>> practices when i expect not to use them for 3 months or so
>>>>>
>>>>> do you empty the gas out or just shut off the gas from the tank to the
>>>>> carb
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Four-stroke lawn mower does not care. Empty and run dry, or add
>>>> stabilizer, or just park it - does not seem to matter. Starts with one
>>>> or two pulls, runs fine.
>>>>
>>>> Two-stroke blower, trimmer and chain saw are emptied and run until they
>>>> stop, with every use. Otherwise, ethanol in the gas destroys the fuel
>>>> line from the tank within a year.
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Simple" solution is to buy the pre-mixed gasoline from the 2-cycle
>>> companies. Made with ethanol free premium (92 octane). My Echo
>>> equipment starts first time, every time using it. Can has a shelf life
>>> of 24 (?) months once opened.
>>
>> I think the solution might be more expensive than the repair. In the
>> Houston area the premix is between $5~$8 per "quart".
>>
>> Does that have the oil premixed too?
>
> Yes, you pour it direct from the can and you're good to go.
>
> And, yes, it is expensive. I sure wouldn't want to run a lawnmower on
> the stuff, but in my case, I use it for string trimmer, leaf blower and
> chain saw. Still expensive to buy but since I don't use all that much
> of it, it's really not bad considering everything starts right up every
> time and I can store it without worrying about degradation of the fuel
> or the equipment.
>
> For larger equipment including my emergency generator, I stick with the
> premium non-ethanol gasoline. Note that I'm buying premium not for the
> octane but rather for the lack of ethanol. Unavailable in all but a few
> spots in Illinois but since I live close to the state line, it's easy
> for me to go up and pick up 5 gallons when needed. Friggin' ethanol
> destroyed one carb on the generator. Not going to happen again if I can
> help it.
>
>>>
>>> Cheaper, not as simple, mix up your 2-cycle fuel using premium, ethanol
>>> free gasoline if it's available in your state. Ethanol means death to
>>> small gasoline engines. ;)
>>
>> And I have been told by many repair shops to use Echo brand oil additive
>> for 2 stroke engines.
>
> My small engine shop sells and recommends the pre-mix and non-alcohol
> fuel for ALL their small engines. They also recommend "Sea Foam" over
> Sta-Bil. I still use Sta-bil in the gasoline stored in Jerry cans for
> the generator but always use Sea Foam in the last tank of gas in the
> fall and first tank in the spring.
>
> I don't know how much difference Echo brand oil would make in the fuel
> equation, but what could it hurt other than, maybe, your wallet. I
> think that if you get rid of the alcohol you've gotten rid of 95% of the
> problem.
>
I did have an issue with my 10 year old Echo last spring. I think it
was simply due for a tune up, it started out fine but after 3~4 uses it
got progressively worse. It took 3 trips to the repair shop to get it
right.
The questioning that went on was like this. Is your fuel fresh? Yes.
Are you using Premium fuel? Yes, And I use Echo oil and B&S fuel
treatment. That is great he said but you do not need to use the B&S
fuel treatment as the Echo also had that ingredient. I responded that I
treat a 2 gallon can that I fill my 4 stroke lawn mower with and I use
that 2 gallons can to fill my 1 gallon can for the 2 stroke Echo.
As I understand the fuel stabilizer prevents the mixture of fuel and air
at the top of the fuel can and seals the gasoline off from the the humid
air in the can, keeping the alcohol from absorbing moisture