When you take your car to the shop, they have
a basic book on what the repair costs, which
reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
when to you go the dealer.
Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
coffee table, &c?
When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
an X, it would be a good reference.
Thanks,
S.
On Oct 31, 11:23 am, samson <[email protected]> wrote:
> When you take your car to the shop, they have
> a basic book on what the repair costs, which
> reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
> are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
> when to you go the dealer.
>
> Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
> how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
> coffee table, &c?
Think for a minute what you are asking; if you are talking about
standard carcass construction cabinets, you can get software that does
it for you, including pricing out doors, drawer fronts, etc. For that
matter, go to HD for carcass style construction. It works for them
because they used standardized contruction methods, standardized
hardware, standardized dimensions, standardized materials, and
standardized finishing protocols.
Just in this group, I'll bet you if you gave 10 people a dimensioned
drawing of a bookcase, with no specs on wood for structure, the kind
of joints you want, what kind of glue to use and no assembly protocol,
etc., you would get 10 very different projects that would appear to be
the same, but stop at appearance.
Different techniques change the amount of time spent not only on
contruction, but on finishing. The variables are too many and the
differences are to vast to make a standard call on the prices.
Robert
On Oct 31, 9:00 pm, "tdup2" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Depending on detail, most things should be priced 2 to 3 times the cost of
> materials. That makes life a lot easier. Again, that depends on how much you
> want to charge for your labor.
>
> Tim"samson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > When you take your car to the shop, they have
> > a basic book on what the repair costs, which
> > reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
> > are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
> > when to you go the dealer.
>
> > Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
> > how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
> > coffee table, &c?
>
> > When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
> > an X, it would be a good reference.
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > S.
It may make life easier, but it isn't always realistic. Cost times
three is great for a fairly simple project, but, in fact, cost times
two almost never works, and cost times three can be tricky. Cost HAS
to include time, and more complex projects run well past the materials
cost times three area when you include time. Let's not forget little
things: mechanic's mark-up on parts (used to be 35%), current garage
charges for labor seem to range from $55 an hour up, mostly up (for
some reason Mercedes dealers charge much, much more for their
mechanics' work; I never knew metric wrenches were that much more
expensive).
That is for repairs. Generally, when you build a project, you are not
repairing, so what you want is a final project cost, for which you
charge enough to make a decent living. Today, 20 bucks an hour isn't a
decent living in many areas (it's close to great here). There is an
awful lot that has to be covered, and too many of us fall for the
"times cost" bit with materials being cost. Not so. Shop expenses,
from tool amortization to electricity to light bulb replacement needs
to be considered, as do phone bills, computer costs and similar
budgetary fun items.
Actual cost of a project, without labor, is probably gong to run at
least 1-1/2 times what most of us have been figuring. At that point,
add your labor. A reminder: do NOT tell the customer how much you
charge per hour. This is not a repair. You are not giving estimates.
Do NOT charge 20 bucks an hour, either, unless you're in hobby mode.
Sit down and figure your labor costs plus your other costs. Add them.
Multiply by 1.15 to allow for waste (time, material, whatnot). Now,
figure how much profit you want, or need to make. Use a percentage:
15%, 20%, or, for high art work, 150% or more. Your choice. Tell the
customer.
Most will probably walk on by. You are usually just as well off
without that kind of customer: the particleboard junk at WalMart is
what they're using for a pricing guide. You can't match it. You don't
even WANT to match it. If your work is good enough, you'll make it.
We've got one guy near here who has been selling beautifully designed
and made furniture for years, training apprentices and so on, and, a
decade ago, Mike was getting $3,800 for a double bed. This is not a
one-off. It is limited production, from a guy with excellent training
and who does superb work. I don't know what his prices are today, but
bet on higher, not lower.
It is not an easy way to make a living, as Tom Watson will attest. He
has the skills, the training and made it for many years but finally
went where things were better, if not easier.
Rant over.
On Nov 1, 7:46 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Charlie Self" wrote
>
> > It may make life easier, but it isn't always realistic.
>
> Well said, Charlie. That's the kind of informative post that are few and far
> between these days ... and from someone with the knowledge/track record to
> back it up.
>
> Worth paying attention to ...
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/25/07
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
Thanks, Swing. I've got an "Oops" in my note: Mike is getting $2,800
for his canopy bed (canopy frame is nearly $600 extra). The spindle
bed works out differently, depending on what footboard is selected. He
used to apprentice four or five younger woodworkers each, provide room
and board, and train them for a year. I don't know if he still does,
but for anyone who wants to work in solid wood, almost all cherry with
walnut accents (drawer pulls, etc.), MT Maxwell might be a place to
consider. Most is power tool work, but the designs are really
superb...and the local scenery (Blue Ridge Mountains) is hard to beat.
Actually, it's unbeatable, IMO.
On Oct 31, 1:23 pm, samson <[email protected]> wrote:
> When you take your car to the shop, they have
> a basic book on what the repair costs, which
> reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
> are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
> when to you go the dealer.
>
> Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
> how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
> coffee table, &c?
>
> When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
> an X, it would be a good reference.
>
> Thanks,
>
> S.
A secondary point: you're comparing a flat rate manual for auto
repairs with charges for the creation of furniture. Apples and donuts.
They're not even both fruits. If you need to make the comparison, get
the cost of parts for building a car, then figure the number of hours
needed for assembly (in the past, back when cars were a bit more
reasonably price--say $5,000 or so---I was told this figure would
range upwards from $27,000, just for the parts..1978? God knows,
today, with car rices hanging around the high 20s).
Even then...I recently shot photos of a Dodge Challenger R/T ('70,
none of this new stuff) for a magazine. The guy who rebuilt this
bought the body after the garage it was sitting next to burned out.
Talk about a mess. It was already pretty well rusted. The heat ruined
every plastic part on it. Using mostly used replacement parts, plus
his own labor and skills (and new pistons, rings, gaskets, etc.), he
dropped about 25K getting it to show ready status. He even did his own
painting: he's good, but not top notch, but a top notch painter for
vintage cars is going to charge about $8,000 a pop for a vehicle
that's mostly ready to shoot. I know another guy who put $100,000 in a
'53 Buick convertible, only to yank it from the restorer because of a
lack of progress...he's now doing the work in his spare time, which he
tends to lack, so the work is going even more slowly (but a lot more
cheaply).
You simply cannot use a flat rate manual for everything.
On Nov 1, 10:43 am, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm a turner, mostly, but My guess is flat work has to at >least as dependant on what the wood used is...
>
> If the "value" of the piece is based on a multiple of the >material costs, all my projects would/wood be done with >VERY exotic wood... *g*
Hi, Mac. Good to see you over here, too.
Pricing woodturning is a totally different color of horse, and is
almost completely dependent on the popularity and recognition of the
turner. Woodturning seems to be priced more as an artist's works are
priced: some starve to death, and others prosper apparently with no
rhyme or reason. A wonderful 12" maple bowl from XXX will fetch $250
(or more!) if signed, but that same quality of bowl from YYY will be
looked at as a salad bowl and get about $60 at a show.
Everyone has their strong suit at the lathe, and that is usually the
type and style of turning piece they produce. I have seen wonderfully
talented people on the lathe that take 3X as long to do something as
the demonstrator I saw doing the same process a couple of months
earlier. So how do you price?
For lathe pricing, I take what I think >> I << should get per hour,
then after a few practice pieces, come up with and average time per
piece to determine the price, reflective of included materials. If I
cannot sell the pieces for my desired price, then I don't sell them.
They become gifts.
And I have found few that will pay for any kind of exotic wood work.
Pens, OK. But no one is going to pay a couple of hundred dollars for
an oil lamp just because it is made from Cocobolo. I can dye maple or
poplar to look like cherry and sell them all day long for $45 - $55,
but that Cocobolo lamp I would probably take to my grave. It is far
better to use your exotics as accents on your cheaper woods to enhance
their appearance.
In all the demos I have attended, all the discussions I have had with
different "recognized" turners, VERY few have ever thought they could
support themselves with turning alone. What a hill to climb
there... They all teach, get sponsors, demo, write articles and
shill different products to make it worthwhile as they could not
support themselves on selling turned pieces.
Price your stuff by the hourly rate you want, and see where you come
out. For me, that not only helped me determine >what< to turn as an
easy sale to pay for more turning "stuff" (damn that's an expensive
hobby) but to also make some extra cash.
Juuuuust my 0.02.
Robert
On Nov 1, 11:39 am, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> Charlie Self wrote:
>
> > A secondary point: you're comparing a flat rate manual for auto
> > repairs with charges for the creation of furniture. Apples and donuts.
> > They're not even both fruits. If you need to make the comparison, get
> > the cost of parts for building a car, then figure the number of hours
> > needed for assembly
>
> A better comparison might be a collision repair shop to a custom or race
> car builder creating parts from scratch.
>
> In one place they're bolting and/or welding mass-produced parts
> together, maybe with a little shimming and filling, then finishing. The
> other takes raw materials and creates the parts first.
>
> In the scratch building arena, use a hood as the example. One part
> might be a simple, relatively flat, race car hood, the other might be a
> classic reproduction, with fair curves created by hand on an english
> wheel. On a secondary note, the race car hood has to be "good enough"
> to look good from a distance, the restoration part needs to look nice
> under gloss black lacquer, viewed up close.
>
> As to pricing as a multiple of material cost, both examples might use
> the same amount of materials, but would command far different finished
> prices.
Good comparison. I recently met a young man who was adept at using an
English wheel: he had built a sports car, with every body panel coming
from his own hands. I didn't ask the price. My nerves will only take
so much, but the fully-loaded Cobra engine might give a hint. You
could probably get a Ferrari cheaper...or maybe not.
On Nov 1, 12:37 pm, Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 12:08:18 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:
> > ...and the local scenery (Blue Ridge Mountains) is hard to beat.
> > Actually, it's unbeatable, IMO.
>
> Now you're going to start a scenery war :-).
>
> We're between the Cascade and the Cabinet mountains and not all that far
> from British Columbia - I'll see your Blue Ridge and raise you a Cascade :-).
>
> But you do have a much better local hardwood selection.
Yes. Cherry. Walnut. Several kinds of ash. Several kinds of oak. Much
tulip poplar. Hickory. Pecan. Apple. Magnolia. Actually, too many to
name, really, and almost all of it in abundance.
On Nov 2, 12:28 pm, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> If they're "art" and will be displayed, they're worth up to >$100 each... because someone loves it and wants it..
Too true. I see work that goes for higher amounts than local turners/
artists can get simply because their bowls are turned by "Pennsylvania
Craftsmen". Hey... what are we? Chopped liver?
> If they're going to eat their cereal out if it every >morning, I might be able to sell it for the $10 - $15 that it >cost me to make it..
Not counting your time of course.
> I have a lady that sells some of my stuff for a >commission and she can talk about the "highly skilled >artist" all day... If I said that, they'd laugh...
Too true.
> I guess perception really DOES become reality? lol
In the world of art, craftwork, or arts and crafts that certainly
seems to be the truth.
But somehow I don't think I will be able to change the reality of the
turnings I do for the cash. I cannot imagine anyone saying: "hey
wait... is that a GENUINE <nailshooter> lamp?"
Makes me laugh!
Robert
Charlie Self wrote:
>
> A secondary point: you're comparing a flat rate manual for auto
> repairs with charges for the creation of furniture. Apples and donuts.
> They're not even both fruits. If you need to make the comparison, get
> the cost of parts for building a car, then figure the number of hours
> needed for assembly
A better comparison might be a collision repair shop to a custom or race
car builder creating parts from scratch.
In one place they're bolting and/or welding mass-produced parts
together, maybe with a little shimming and filling, then finishing. The
other takes raw materials and creates the parts first.
In the scratch building arena, use a hood as the example. One part
might be a simple, relatively flat, race car hood, the other might be a
classic reproduction, with fair curves created by hand on an english
wheel. On a secondary note, the race car hood has to be "good enough"
to look good from a distance, the restoration part needs to look nice
under gloss black lacquer, viewed up close.
As to pricing as a multiple of material cost, both examples might use
the same amount of materials, but would command far different finished
prices.
Wed, Oct 31, 2007, 12:23pm (EDT-1) [email protected] (samson) doth
query:
<snip> Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? <snip>
Too many variables to be viable.
JOAT
It's not hard, if you get your mind right.
- Granny Weatherwax
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 12:10:22 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In the world of art, craftwork, or arts and crafts that certainly
>seems to be the truth.
>
>But somehow I don't think I will be able to change the reality of the
>turnings I do for the cash. I cannot imagine anyone saying: "hey
>wait... is that a GENUINE <nailshooter> lamp?"
>
>Makes me laugh!
>
>Robert
>
Well, ya never know...
When I "sign" the pieces, I also burn in a number.. every piece that I think
might be "art" is numbered and put in the computer.. when something sells, the
DB prints a "Certificate of Authenticity" with the number and brief description
of the piece and that it was "Hand crafted by Mac Davis of Baja Woodcraft"..
Someday they might be worth big bucks, but as I tell my wife, I'm not ready to
die to make them more valuable.. *lol*
It took a lot of suggestions from friends and some nagging by the wife before I
could do these... just seemed very pompous and elitist... but I guess that's
marketing for ya... ;-[
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:23:33 -0500, samson <[email protected]> wrote:
>When you take your car to the shop, they have
>a basic book on what the repair costs, which
>reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
>are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
>when to you go the dealer.
>
>Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
>how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
>coffee table, &c?
>
>When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
>an X, it would be a good reference.
>
>Thanks,
>
>S.
AWI has a cost book.
It costs more to join AWI to find out what the book is about than what
a small shop makes in a month.
I got one.
I was a little disappointed.
Regards,
Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Depending on detail, most things should be priced 2 to 3 times the cost of
materials. That makes life a lot easier. Again, that depends on how much you
want to charge for your labor.
Tim
"samson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> When you take your car to the shop, they have
> a basic book on what the repair costs, which
> reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
> are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
> when to you go the dealer.
>
> Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
> how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
> coffee table, &c?
>
> When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
> an X, it would be a good reference.
>
> Thanks,
>
> S.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Oct 31, 9:00 pm, "tdup2" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Depending on detail, most things should be priced 2 to 3 times the cost of
> > materials. That makes life a lot easier. Again, that depends on how much you
> > want to charge for your labor.
> >
> > Tim"samson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> > > When you take your car to the shop, they have
> > > a basic book on what the repair costs, which
> > > reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
> > > are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
> > > when to you go the dealer.
> >
> > > Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
> > > how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
> > > coffee table, &c?
> >
> > > When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
> > > an X, it would be a good reference.
> >
> > > Thanks,
> >
> > > S.
>
> It may make life easier, but it isn't always realistic. Cost times
> three is great for a fairly simple project, but, in fact, cost times
> two almost never works, and cost times three can be tricky. Cost HAS
> to include time, and more complex projects run well past the materials
> cost times three area when you include time. Let's not forget little
> things: mechanic's mark-up on parts (used to be 35%), current garage
> charges for labor seem to range from $55 an hour up, mostly up (for
> some reason Mercedes dealers charge much, much more for their
> mechanics' work; I never knew metric wrenches were that much more
> expensive).
>
> That is for repairs. Generally, when you build a project, you are not
> repairing, so what you want is a final project cost, for which you
> charge enough to make a decent living. Today, 20 bucks an hour isn't a
> decent living in many areas (it's close to great here). There is an
> awful lot that has to be covered, and too many of us fall for the
> "times cost" bit with materials being cost. Not so. Shop expenses,
> from tool amortization to electricity to light bulb replacement needs
> to be considered, as do phone bills, computer costs and similar
> budgetary fun items.
>
> Actual cost of a project, without labor, is probably gong to run at
> least 1-1/2 times what most of us have been figuring. At that point,
> add your labor. A reminder: do NOT tell the customer how much you
> charge per hour. This is not a repair. You are not giving estimates.
> Do NOT charge 20 bucks an hour, either, unless you're in hobby mode.
> Sit down and figure your labor costs plus your other costs. Add them.
> Multiply by 1.15 to allow for waste (time, material, whatnot). Now,
> figure how much profit you want, or need to make. Use a percentage:
> 15%, 20%, or, for high art work, 150% or more. Your choice. Tell the
> customer.
>
> Most will probably walk on by. You are usually just as well off
> without that kind of customer: the particleboard junk at WalMart is
> what they're using for a pricing guide. You can't match it. You don't
> even WANT to match it. If your work is good enough, you'll make it.
> We've got one guy near here who has been selling beautifully designed
> and made furniture for years, training apprentices and so on, and, a
> decade ago, Mike was getting $3,800 for a double bed. This is not a
> one-off. It is limited production, from a guy with excellent training
> and who does superb work. I don't know what his prices are today, but
> bet on higher, not lower.
>
> It is not an easy way to make a living, as Tom Watson will attest. He
> has the skills, the training and made it for many years but finally
> went where things were better, if not easier.
>
> Rant over.
Good info, Charlie. Thanks.
S.
"Charlie Self" wrote
> It may make life easier, but it isn't always realistic.
Well said, Charlie. That's the kind of informative post that are few and far
between these days ... and from someone with the knowledge/track record to
back it up.
Worth paying attention to ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/25/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 11:39:51 -0400, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>In the scratch building arena, use a hood as the example. One part
>might be a simple, relatively flat, race car hood, the other might be a
>classic reproduction, with fair curves created by hand on an english
>wheel. On a secondary note, the race car hood has to be "good enough"
>to look good from a distance, the restoration part needs to look nice
>under gloss black lacquer, viewed up close.
>
>As to pricing as a multiple of material cost, both examples might use
>the same amount of materials, but would command far different finished
>prices.
Good points, Barry..
I'm a turner, mostly, but My guess is flat work has to at least as dependant on
what the wood used is...
If the "value" of the piece is based on a multiple of the material costs, all my
projects would/wood be done with VERY exotic wood... *g*
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:23:33 -0500, samson <[email protected]> wrote:
>When you take your car to the shop, they have
>a basic book on what the repair costs, which
>reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
>are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
>when to you go the dealer.
>
>Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
>how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
>coffee table, &c?
>
>When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
>an X, it would be a good reference.
>
>Thanks,
>
>S.
More applicable to factories or such that hand crafted pieces, IMHO..
The flat rate books at auto repair shops tell you that if you're replacing a
part on a specific vehicle, experience says that it should take "X" time to
perform the task..
If folks want that kind of production stuff, suggest that they try Wal-Mart..
YMWV
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
samson wrote:
> When you take your car to the shop, they have
> a basic book on what the repair costs, which
> reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
> are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
> when to you go the dealer.
>
> Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
> how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
> coffee table, &c?
>
> When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
> an X, it would be a good reference.
A hundred bucks might be too much for a coffee table or ten thousand
might be too little, depending on the design, materials, workmanship,
and detail.
You _might_ be able to work up costs for specific tasks, like
"machine-cut dovetails" or "mortise straight leg for two aprons" but
even there there are going to be dependencies on the shop setup and
the quantity and the specifics of the design--you have both setup and
recurring costs and someone cutting dovetails on an Incra jig is going
to have a different setup charge and productivity rate from someone
using a Leigh for example even if the result is identical.
Then there are intangibles. If I were to make an exact copy of a
Maloof chair (assuming I could) I doubt that I could get a tenth what
he can get for it because he's established himself as an artist and
nobody's ever heard of me.
The bottom line is that furniture is worth what people will pay for
it.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 11:13:53 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
The best advice that I got when I moved to Mexico (think new start) was to get
into the mind set of "artist".. I still have a hard time doing it, but I sort of
force it..
Everything in life is marketing, and "art" sells for much more than "hand made
in my shop"..
Another example of your salad bowl would be the 6" to 9" diameter bowls I
sell...
If they're "art" and will be displayed, they're worth up to $100 each... because
someone loves it and wants it..
If they're going to eat their cereal out if it every morning, I might be able to
sell it for the $10 - $15 that it cost me to make it..
I've also found that most people will pay more for "art" from an "expert" or
"dealer" than they will from the artist... Might be because if the artist is out
selling his stuff, they think "starving artist" or something?
I have a lady that sells some of my stuff for a commission and she can talk
about the "highly skilled artist" all day... If I said that, they'd laugh...
I guess perception really DOES become reality? lol
>On Nov 1, 10:43 am, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm a turner, mostly, but My guess is flat work has to at >least as dependant on what the wood used is...
>>
>> If the "value" of the piece is based on a multiple of the >material costs, all my projects would/wood be done with >VERY exotic wood... *g*
>
>Hi, Mac. Good to see you over here, too.
>
>Pricing woodturning is a totally different color of horse, and is
>almost completely dependent on the popularity and recognition of the
>turner. Woodturning seems to be priced more as an artist's works are
>priced: some starve to death, and others prosper apparently with no
>rhyme or reason. A wonderful 12" maple bowl from XXX will fetch $250
>(or more!) if signed, but that same quality of bowl from YYY will be
>looked at as a salad bowl and get about $60 at a show.
>
>Everyone has their strong suit at the lathe, and that is usually the
>type and style of turning piece they produce. I have seen wonderfully
>talented people on the lathe that take 3X as long to do something as
>the demonstrator I saw doing the same process a couple of months
>earlier. So how do you price?
>
>For lathe pricing, I take what I think >> I << should get per hour,
>then after a few practice pieces, come up with and average time per
>piece to determine the price, reflective of included materials. If I
>cannot sell the pieces for my desired price, then I don't sell them.
>They become gifts.
>
>And I have found few that will pay for any kind of exotic wood work.
>Pens, OK. But no one is going to pay a couple of hundred dollars for
>an oil lamp just because it is made from Cocobolo. I can dye maple or
>poplar to look like cherry and sell them all day long for $45 - $55,
>but that Cocobolo lamp I would probably take to my grave. It is far
>better to use your exotics as accents on your cheaper woods to enhance
>their appearance.
>
>In all the demos I have attended, all the discussions I have had with
>different "recognized" turners, VERY few have ever thought they could
>support themselves with turning alone. What a hill to climb
>there... They all teach, get sponsors, demo, write articles and
>shill different products to make it worthwhile as they could not
>support themselves on selling turned pieces.
>
>Price your stuff by the hourly rate you want, and see where you come
>out. For me, that not only helped me determine >what< to turn as an
>easy sale to pay for more turning "stuff" (damn that's an expensive
>hobby) but to also make some extra cash.
>
>Juuuuust my 0.02.
>
>Robert
>
>
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:00:26 -0400, "tdup2" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Depending on detail, most things should be priced 2 to 3 times the cost of
>materials. That makes life a lot easier. Again, that depends on how much you
>want to charge for your labor.
>
>Tim
I'd love that kind of markup!
I'm doing 3 goblets now for a client and the blanks were $40 each...
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 12:08:18 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:
> ...and the local scenery (Blue Ridge Mountains) is hard to beat.
> Actually, it's unbeatable, IMO.
Now you're going to start a scenery war :-).
We're between the Cascade and the Cabinet mountains and not all that far
from British Columbia - I'll see your Blue Ridge and raise you a Cascade :-).
But you do have a much better local hardwood selection.
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:23:33 -0500, samson <[email protected]> wrote:
>When you take your car to the shop, they have
>a basic book on what the repair costs, which
>reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
>are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
>when to you go the dealer.
>
>Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
>how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
>coffee table, &c?
>
>When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
>an X, it would be a good reference.
>
>Thanks,
>
>S.
We do not make X's (cf. "we do not sell pigs.")
We also do not sell Widgets.
We (and I am using the present tense albeit the near past tense is
more appropriate) sell custom woodwork.
There is no economy of scale in custom wooddorking.
Your analogy hinges (good lord, that was a trifle arch) on the missing
fact that there is a base of data for the replication of the item in
question.
I don't think that anyone would choose to apply Six Sigma analysis to
the custom wooddorking bidness.
What we do is - find out what the customer wants.
That was a damned small sentence but it embraces a module of the
process that might literally take months.
We then define the limits of the customer's expectations (and ours)
through drawings and submittals.
Since customers understand neither drawings, nor submittals, we go to
visit them again to make sure that we are all on the same page.
Sometimes we do mockups.
Sometimes we make shadow figures on the wall (strike that)
You are usually talking about owner's or partner's time at this level
(and if were paid like that it might make a lick of difference).
Then we start building stuff.
We work with an unpredictable material (Doug and Ed might disagree)
and we therefore buy a sufficient quantity to ensure our adequate
completion of the job. (incurring unrecoverable costs for custom
material that takes probably $4.00 per hour out of the shop).
We then machine the material ( which, if a normal business had
acquired the machinery would have been expensed to the job at a rate
of about $12.00 per hour).
We then join the material, which, since we are the only person who can
be relied on to do that job - gets billed out at owner's and partner's
rate ( or about $13.00 per hour - real money).
We then take it through the finishing process - which, since we are
all Pchem majors goes through without a hitch (and at the usual
partner's and owner's rate of $13.00 per hour).
Then we deliver it and install it and that costs us the union rate of
$54.00 per hour (for a guy who has demonstrated his past history by
showing up with a canvas bag full of tools applicable to the making of
concrete forms - but he does have a union card).
yadda
Regards,
Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:23:33 -0500, samson <[email protected]> wrote:
>When you take your car to the shop, they have
>a basic book on what the repair costs, which
>reflects how many hours it should take. So brakes
>are X amount pretty much anywhere you go, except
>when to you go the dealer.
>
>Has anyone devised such a book for woodwork? About
>how much it would cost someone for a bookcase, a
>coffee table, &c?
>
>When people ask, how much would it cost for you to make
>an X, it would be a good reference.
>
>Thanks,
>
>S.
I can easily do database analysis/development for $100 an hour, but
when I ask $20 for my woodworking that's too much. The truth is,
there's too much emotional attachment to everything I make out of
wood. Most furniture today is made from particle board and I can't
even buy the wood for less than the furniture piece. And then,
someone overseas works all day for $20 and carves elaborate
decorations.
"tdup2" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Depending on detail, most things should be priced 2 to 3 times the cost of
> materials. That makes life a lot easier. Again, that depends on how much
> you want to charge for your labor.
I can't believe that successful businesses would still price like that.
There are far too many factors to trust any "rule of thumb" pricing schemes
it you want to be profitable and competitive. I've been involved with
pricing for many years (different industry) and the companies that used to
price that way are long gone. Some of our jobs are 2X, others are up to
10X.
Your first three words "depending on detail" are the most important part of
pricing.