On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:40:12 -0800, Charlie Groh
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:44:07 -0500, "J. Clarke"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Charlie Groh wrote:
>>> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:54:18 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "mac davis" wrote
>>>>
>>>>> My feelings, probably tainted by my experience in Nam, is that we
>>>>> probably did
>>>>> the right thing initially, which was to stop invasion of
>>>>> neighboring
>>>>> countries...
>>>>> Once we did that, it was time to say "we won" and get our people
>>>>> back home..
>>>>>
>>>>> As you said, I support our people in harm's way, but not always
>>>>> the
>>>>> people that
>>>>> sent them there..
>>>>
>>>> I agree ... regardless of whether pundits want to consider the war
>>>> won or lost, I was in beaucoup battles in Nam and never lost a
>>>> one!
>>>
>>> ...I flew scouts in a Cav Troop...always came home with a broomstick
>>> tied to the periscope...heh...
>>>>
>>>> And to this day, I would work up a good spit for both Robert
>>>> McNamara and Westmoreland were the opportunity to arise.
>>>
>>> ...I'll save some for LBJ, brother. The Tonkin Gulf Resolution
>>> alone
>>> accounted for 90% of us guys being sent over there...and *it* was
>>> based on fabrication of events...
>>>>
>>>> ( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy
>>>> staying
>>>> alive to grasp the vileness of the situation)
>>>
>>> ...I hear you, bro!
>>
>>Ever read "Giap"? He knew he had been beaten and said as much. Shame
>>that American schoolteachers aren't as honest.
>>
>>As for saying "we won" and then going home, why bother? If you do
>>that you're going to keep fighting the same war over and over again.
>>Either finish the job or don't start it.
>>
>>The trouble with Iraq is that we're trying to rush the "finishing the
>>job" part of it and it's going to end up a mess. Have you ever read
>>the Iraqi constitution? It pays lip service to a lot of high ideals
>>but has no checks and balances and mechanisms for guaranteeing those
>>ideals.
>
>Oh, a buddy of mine turned me on to "The Fall of Saigon" (an account
>by a French author/reporter whom I can't seem to find the name of
>right now...sheesh)...that, along with seeing documentation that I
>trusted about Tonkin, was quite the mental watershed. We had no
>business being involved in a Civil War...
>
>cg
>>
>>--
OK, after checking thoroughly: "Giai Phong! The Fall and Liberation
of Saigon" by Tiziano Terzani (that noted *French* author...heh).
Great read.
cg
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> In the 5th Special Forces O-club in Nha Trang, the only other one I ever
> got close to while in country, they had "top notch" entertainment ... like
> the ubiquitous, third rate, Filipino rock 'n roll band, who played "Magic
> Carpet Ride" at least once every set. :(
>
... and Yellow Reever...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
J. Clarke wrote:
> mac davis wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:54:18 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I agree ... regardless of whether pundits want to consider the war
>>> won or lost, I was in beaucoup battles in Nam and never lost a
>>> one!
>>>
>>> And to this day, I would work up a good spit for both Robert
>>> McNamara and Westmoreland were the opportunity to arise.
>>>
>>> ( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy
>>> staying
>>> alive to grasp the vileness of the situation)
>> Ahh.. 2 of my least favorite folks...
>> McNamara took away or M-14's (real rifle) and gave us the Mattel
>> M-16..
>> I know that the one's that my kid uses now are ok, but the early
>> ones
>> that we "beta-tested" got a lot of folks killed.. real POS..
>
> Hey, McNamara was no fool. Do you think that he _wanted_ any Army that
> he was in charge of to have rifles that had a hope of putting a hole
> in him?
>
>> Met "Westy" a few times but wasn't allowed to tell him that he
>> couldn't use WWII tactics in Nam..
>>
>> Loved Bradley's (supposed) quote when he was asked if he would
>> continue Westmorelands's "hearts and minds" strategy..
>> "It's been my experience that if you grab someone by the balls,
>> their
>> hearts and minds follow"
>>
>> Never been able to prove or disprove that quote, but ya gotta love
>> it..
>
> That is a good one. And I've been of the opinion for a while that our
> big mistake in Iraq was trying to win "hearts and minds" before first
> making it abundantly clear to _everyone_ there that their asses had
> been kicked. Although I'm not sure that Saddam was sane enough for be
> able to understand that concept.
>
The problem with our stratigy in Iraq is that most people are still of
an anti-Vietnam mind set.
BTW: In my opinion McNamara should be set in front of the wall and be
subjected to a couple dozen marksmen.
On Nov 10, 1:28=A0pm, Ron <[email protected]> wrote:
> Veterans :
> Thank GOD for Veterans. Thank all of you Veterans for your service to
> our country.
> God Bless
> Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com
A big genuine THANK YOU to all vintages of Veterans. Some I know well.
That takes a special kind of human to volunteer for that kinda work.
My dear Angela's father was a grunt in WW2 and came home to raise 4
men and my wife, all of them left with a purpose to make the world a
better place.
Respectfully, I submit my deepest gratitude.
Rob
On Nov 10, 7:17=A0pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:321875ba-ebbc-4e23-bd3a-
> [email protected]:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 10, 1:28=A0pm, Ron <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Veterans :
> >> Thank GOD for Veterans. Thank all of you Veterans for your service to
> >> our country.
> >> God Bless
> >> Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com
>
> > A big genuine THANK YOU to all vintages of Veterans. Some I know well.
> > That takes a special kind of human to volunteer for that kinda work.
>
> > My dear Angela's father was a grunt in WW2 and came home to raise 4
> > men and my wife, all of them left with a purpose to make the world a
> > better place.
>
> > Respectfully, I submit my deepest gratitude.
>
> > Rob
>
> I second that sentiment. =A0Born October 1944 in nazi-occupied Holland.
>
> --
> Best regards
> Han
> email address is invalid
My school in Alphen, wore the scars of bullets. Some big holes,
obviously re-bricked. It was near a railroad line, between Leiden and
Utrecht. I was born later in the 40's but old enough to see and
remember the devastation in downtown Rotterdam.
I also played hide and seek in many pillbox bunkers and abandoned
tanks. We, as kids, found lots and lots of empty shell casings. (The
latter, we would strap onto Dinky Toys and fill them with KCLO3 and
sugar and made fun rocket cars.)
I also recall some neighbourhoods being evacuated because yet another
UXB would be found.
"Ron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:023469e0-f086-467a-86d3-1ebb5902a084@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Veterans :
> Thank GOD for Veterans. Thank all of you Veterans for your service to
> our country.
> God Bless
> Millwright Ron
> www.unionmillwright.com
Every year about this time I set and think about friends I will never talk
with or see again, friends I have lost touch with but still stand tall in my
memories,and friends who still stand with me even over many miles and years,
"Companions" who stood with me that I never knew, all who wore or wear the
uniform of this their country. I am proud to have walked with you and may
'God bless you every one
On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:28:46 -0800 (PST), Ron <[email protected]> wrote:
>Veterans :
>Thank GOD for Veterans. Thank all of you Veterans for your service to
>our country.
>God Bless
>Millwright Ron
>www.unionmillwright.com
Thank you, Ron...
Damn, it's been almost 40 friggin' years now!
I sent my first "Happy Vet's Day" email to our son today... Back from Iraq last
month with all body parts intact..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:21:08 -0800, Charlie Groh <[email protected]>
wrote:
>...I get the same feeling...Nam all over again when we pull out. Hope
>not..
I've heard of Iraq referred to as "Vietnam in the sand" but disagree..
My fear is that it seems more like the "US version of Ireland" and we'll be
there forever..
I sure hope I'm wrong..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Nov 14, 8:14=A0am, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:16:59 GMT, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> w=
rote:
> >"mac davis" wrote:
>
> >> "It's been my experience that if you grab someone by the balls,
> >> their hearts and
> >> minds follow"
>
> >For years, had a framed poster on the wall that read:
>
> >"When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."
>
> >Lew
>
> that is probably the actual quote, Lew..
> Mine's filtered through 40 years of interference.. lol
>
> mac
>
> Please remove splinters before emailing
Vietnam
68,69,70
144th. avn company
Ankhe
Be safe and look after your brothers
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com
"Charlie Groh" wrote
Swingman"
>>Good talking to you, Charlie .... thanks for the mammaries! (I didn't get
>>to
>>see Bob Hope either)
>
> ...we got Mamie Van Doren in our O-club once...our CO ran off with her
> to Hawaii! Yup...we troopers only got to imagine...sigh...
tsk, tsk ... we had to make do with the occasional Doughnut Dolly fly in.
Our battalion HQ O-club, in Ban Me Thuot, which I got to about once a month,
was sandbagged ammo box walls, with sandbagged PSP over head, and a plywood
floor, and FULLY equipped with a PacEx tape deck and a pop corn machine ...
providing Charlie hadn't knocked out the generator with an RPG that
particular night.
In the 5th Special Forces O-club in Nha Trang, the only other one I ever got
close to while in country, they had "top notch" entertainment ... like the
ubiquitous, third rate, Filipino rock 'n roll band, who played "Magic Carpet
Ride" at least once every set. :(
But, a hot shower and clean sheets was much more important!
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Ron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:023469e0-f086-467a-86d3-1ebb5902a084@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Veterans :
> Thank GOD for Veterans. Thank all of you Veterans for your service to
> our country.
> God Bless
> Millwright Ron
> www.unionmillwright.com
And a big Thank You!, from a Veteran, for the thought behind your post!
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"mac davis" wrote
> My feelings, probably tainted by my experience in Nam, is that we probably
> did
> the right thing initially, which was to stop invasion of neighboring
> countries...
> Once we did that, it was time to say "we won" and get our people back
> home..
>
> As you said, I support our people in harm's way, but not always the people
> that
> sent them there..
I agree ... regardless of whether pundits want to consider the war won or
lost, I was in beaucoup battles in Nam and never lost a one!
And to this day, I would work up a good spit for both Robert McNamara and
Westmoreland were the opportunity to arise.
( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy staying alive
to grasp the vileness of the situation)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:321875ba-ebbc-4e23-bd3a-
[email protected]:
> On Nov 10, 1:28 pm, Ron <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Veterans :
>> Thank GOD for Veterans. Thank all of you Veterans for your service to
>> our country.
>> God Bless
>> Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com
>
> A big genuine THANK YOU to all vintages of Veterans. Some I know well.
> That takes a special kind of human to volunteer for that kinda work.
>
> My dear Angela's father was a grunt in WW2 and came home to raise 4
> men and my wife, all of them left with a purpose to make the world a
> better place.
>
> Respectfully, I submit my deepest gratitude.
>
> Rob
I second that sentiment. Born October 1944 in nazi-occupied Holland.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in
news:3d892ef6-d302-4e64-b859-35e4849e23fa@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 10, 7:17 pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:321875ba-ebbc-4e23-bd3a-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 10, 1:28 pm, Ron <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> Veterans :
>> >> Thank GOD for Veterans. Thank all of you Veterans for your service
>> >> to our country.
>> >> God Bless
>> >> Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com
>>
>> > A big genuine THANK YOU to all vintages of Veterans. Some I know
>> > well. That takes a special kind of human to volunteer for that
>> > kinda work.
>>
>> > My dear Angela's father was a grunt in WW2 and came home to raise 4
>> > men and my wife, all of them left with a purpose to make the world
>> > a better place.
>>
>> > Respectfully, I submit my deepest gratitude.
>>
>> > Rob
>>
>> I second that sentiment. Born October 1944 in nazi-occupied Holland.
>>
>> --
>> Best regards
>> Han
>> email address is invalid
>
> My school in Alphen, wore the scars of bullets. Some big holes,
> obviously re-bricked. It was near a railroad line, between Leiden and
> Utrecht. I was born later in the 40's but old enough to see and
> remember the devastation in downtown Rotterdam.
> I also played hide and seek in many pillbox bunkers and abandoned
> tanks. We, as kids, found lots and lots of empty shell casings. (The
> latter, we would strap onto Dinky Toys and fill them with KCLO3 and
> sugar and made fun rocket cars.)
>
> I also recall some neighbourhoods being evacuated because yet another
> UXB would be found.
I grew up in Wageningen, which was frontline in 1940 during the 5-day
battle of the Grebbe line. Then again in the fall and winter of 1944/5
after Operation Market Garden failed. I was born in Hilversum, though,
at least 50 miles away. I walked many times in the Airborn walking tour
in Oosterbeek.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
mac davis <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I sent my first "Happy Vet's Day" email to our son today... Back from
> Iraq last month with all body parts intact..
>
>
> mac
Congratulations to your son and thanks for his efforts on behalf of
civilization. I have always been against the war in Iraq, but that enmity
is against the socalled leaders who got us into that war, not against the
service personnel who carry out the job. Hopefully all will be back soon,
and we can all be civilized soon.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:45:31 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Good talking to you, Charlie .... thanks for the mammaries! (I didn't get to
>see Bob Hope either)
Funny you mention that... brought up a flashback..
I was on light duty in Long Bien when he had his show there and had the best
experience of my "career"... Drove Barbara McNair to the show..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Nov 11, 9:25=A0pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
> mac davis <[email protected]> wrote innews:95djh4tvqccgffov5g14=
[email protected]:
>
> > I sent my first "Happy Vet's Day" email to our son today... Back from
> > Iraq last month with all body parts intact..
>
> > mac
>
> Congratulations to your son and thanks for his efforts on behalf of
> civilization. =A0I have always been against the war in Iraq, but that enm=
ity
> is against the socalled leaders who got us into that war, not against the
> service personnel who carry out the job. =A0Hopefully all will be back so=
on,
> and we can all be civilized soon.
>
Idem.
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:25:15 GMT, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>mac davis <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> I sent my first "Happy Vet's Day" email to our son today... Back from
>> Iraq last month with all body parts intact..
>>
>>
>> mac
>
>Congratulations to your son and thanks for his efforts on behalf of
>civilization. I have always been against the war in Iraq, but that enmity
>is against the socalled leaders who got us into that war, not against the
>service personnel who carry out the job. Hopefully all will be back soon,
>and we can all be civilized soon.
I sure hope you're right... He only has a 90 day "window" before they can deploy
him again for another 15 months..
My feelings, probably tainted by my experience in Nam, is that we probably did
the right thing initially, which was to stop invasion of neighboring
countries...
Once we did that, it was time to say "we won" and get our people back home..
As you said, I support our people in harm's way, but not always the people that
sent them there..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
Charlie Groh wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:54:18 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> "mac davis" wrote
>>
>>> My feelings, probably tainted by my experience in Nam, is that we
>>> probably did
>>> the right thing initially, which was to stop invasion of
>>> neighboring
>>> countries...
>>> Once we did that, it was time to say "we won" and get our people
>>> back home..
>>>
>>> As you said, I support our people in harm's way, but not always
>>> the
>>> people that
>>> sent them there..
>>
>> I agree ... regardless of whether pundits want to consider the war
>> won or lost, I was in beaucoup battles in Nam and never lost a
>> one!
>
> ...I flew scouts in a Cav Troop...always came home with a broomstick
> tied to the periscope...heh...
>>
>> And to this day, I would work up a good spit for both Robert
>> McNamara and Westmoreland were the opportunity to arise.
>
> ...I'll save some for LBJ, brother. The Tonkin Gulf Resolution
> alone
> accounted for 90% of us guys being sent over there...and *it* was
> based on fabrication of events...
>>
>> ( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy
>> staying
>> alive to grasp the vileness of the situation)
>
> ...I hear you, bro!
Ever read "Giap"? He knew he had been beaten and said as much. Shame
that American schoolteachers aren't as honest.
As for saying "we won" and then going home, why bother? If you do
that you're going to keep fighting the same war over and over again.
Either finish the job or don't start it.
The trouble with Iraq is that we're trying to rush the "finishing the
job" part of it and it's going to end up a mess. Have you ever read
the Iraqi constitution? It pays lip service to a lot of high ideals
but has no checks and balances and mechanisms for guaranteeing those
ideals.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
mac davis wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:54:18 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>> I agree ... regardless of whether pundits want to consider the war
>> won or lost, I was in beaucoup battles in Nam and never lost a
>> one!
>>
>> And to this day, I would work up a good spit for both Robert
>> McNamara and Westmoreland were the opportunity to arise.
>>
>> ( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy
>> staying
>> alive to grasp the vileness of the situation)
>
> Ahh.. 2 of my least favorite folks...
> McNamara took away or M-14's (real rifle) and gave us the Mattel
> M-16..
> I know that the one's that my kid uses now are ok, but the early
> ones
> that we "beta-tested" got a lot of folks killed.. real POS..
Hey, McNamara was no fool. Do you think that he _wanted_ any Army that
he was in charge of to have rifles that had a hope of putting a hole
in him?
> Met "Westy" a few times but wasn't allowed to tell him that he
> couldn't use WWII tactics in Nam..
>
> Loved Bradley's (supposed) quote when he was asked if he would
> continue Westmorelands's "hearts and minds" strategy..
> "It's been my experience that if you grab someone by the balls,
> their
> hearts and minds follow"
>
> Never been able to prove or disprove that quote, but ya gotta love
> it..
That is a good one. And I've been of the opinion for a while that our
big mistake in Iraq was trying to win "hearts and minds" before first
making it abundantly clear to _everyone_ there that their asses had
been kicked. Although I'm not sure that Saddam was sane enough for be
able to understand that concept.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:54:18 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I agree ... regardless of whether pundits want to consider the war won or
>lost, I was in beaucoup battles in Nam and never lost a one!
>
>And to this day, I would work up a good spit for both Robert McNamara and
>Westmoreland were the opportunity to arise.
>
>( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy staying alive
>to grasp the vileness of the situation)
Ahh.. 2 of my least favorite folks...
McNamara took away or M-14's (real rifle) and gave us the Mattel M-16..
I know that the one's that my kid uses now are ok, but the early ones that we
"beta-tested" got a lot of folks killed.. real POS..
Met "Westy" a few times but wasn't allowed to tell him that he couldn't use WWII
tactics in Nam..
Loved Bradley's (supposed) quote when he was asked if he would continue
Westmorelands's "hearts and minds" strategy..
"It's been my experience that if you grab someone by the balls, their hearts and
minds follow"
Never been able to prove or disprove that quote, but ya gotta love it..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:45:31 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Charlie Groh" wrote
>
>> ...I flew scouts in a Cav Troop...always came home with a broomstick
>> tied to the periscope...heh...
>
>Hehe ... A clean sweep!
>
>> ...I'll save some for LBJ, brother. The Tonkin Gulf Resolution alone
>> accounted for 90% of us guys being sent over there...and *it* was
>> based on fabrication of events...
>
>"When will we ever learn ..."
>
>>>( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy staying alive
>>>to grasp the vileness of the situation)
>>
>> ...I hear you, bro!
>>
>> Charlie Groh
>
>Good talking to you, Charlie .... thanks for the mammaries! (I didn't get to
>see Bob Hope either)
...we got Mamie Van Doren in our O-club once...our CO ran off with her
to Hawaii! Yup...we troopers only got to imagine...sigh...
cg
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:54:18 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"mac davis" wrote
>
>> My feelings, probably tainted by my experience in Nam, is that we probably
>> did
>> the right thing initially, which was to stop invasion of neighboring
>> countries...
>> Once we did that, it was time to say "we won" and get our people back
>> home..
>>
>> As you said, I support our people in harm's way, but not always the people
>> that
>> sent them there..
>
>I agree ... regardless of whether pundits want to consider the war won or
>lost, I was in beaucoup battles in Nam and never lost a one!
...I flew scouts in a Cav Troop...always came home with a broomstick
tied to the periscope...heh...
>
>And to this day, I would work up a good spit for both Robert McNamara and
>Westmoreland were the opportunity to arise.
...I'll save some for LBJ, brother. The Tonkin Gulf Resolution alone
accounted for 90% of us guys being sent over there...and *it* was
based on fabrication of events...
>
>( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy staying alive
>to grasp the vileness of the situation)
...I hear you, bro!
Charlie Groh
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:44:07 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Charlie Groh wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:54:18 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "mac davis" wrote
>>>
>>>> My feelings, probably tainted by my experience in Nam, is that we
>>>> probably did
>>>> the right thing initially, which was to stop invasion of
>>>> neighboring
>>>> countries...
>>>> Once we did that, it was time to say "we won" and get our people
>>>> back home..
>>>>
>>>> As you said, I support our people in harm's way, but not always
>>>> the
>>>> people that
>>>> sent them there..
>>>
>>> I agree ... regardless of whether pundits want to consider the war
>>> won or lost, I was in beaucoup battles in Nam and never lost a
>>> one!
>>
>> ...I flew scouts in a Cav Troop...always came home with a broomstick
>> tied to the periscope...heh...
>>>
>>> And to this day, I would work up a good spit for both Robert
>>> McNamara and Westmoreland were the opportunity to arise.
>>
>> ...I'll save some for LBJ, brother. The Tonkin Gulf Resolution
>> alone
>> accounted for 90% of us guys being sent over there...and *it* was
>> based on fabrication of events...
>>>
>>> ( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy
>>> staying
>>> alive to grasp the vileness of the situation)
>>
>> ...I hear you, bro!
>
>Ever read "Giap"? He knew he had been beaten and said as much. Shame
>that American schoolteachers aren't as honest.
>
>As for saying "we won" and then going home, why bother? If you do
>that you're going to keep fighting the same war over and over again.
>Either finish the job or don't start it.
...I get the same feeling...Nam all over again when we pull out. Hope
not...
>
>The trouble with Iraq is that we're trying to rush the "finishing the
>job" part of it and it's going to end up a mess. Have you ever read
>the Iraqi constitution? It pays lip service to a lot of high ideals
>but has no checks and balances and mechanisms for guaranteeing those
>ideals.
>
...didn't we "help" them write their document? If so, why not in our
image?
cg
"Charlie Groh" wrote
> ...I flew scouts in a Cav Troop...always came home with a broomstick
> tied to the periscope...heh...
Hehe ... A clean sweep!
> ...I'll save some for LBJ, brother. The Tonkin Gulf Resolution alone
> accounted for 90% of us guys being sent over there...and *it* was
> based on fabrication of events...
"When will we ever learn ..."
>>( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy staying alive
>>to grasp the vileness of the situation)
>
> ...I hear you, bro!
>
> Charlie Groh
Good talking to you, Charlie .... thanks for the mammaries! (I didn't get to
see Bob Hope either)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:44:07 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Charlie Groh wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:54:18 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "mac davis" wrote
>>>
>>>> My feelings, probably tainted by my experience in Nam, is that we
>>>> probably did
>>>> the right thing initially, which was to stop invasion of
>>>> neighboring
>>>> countries...
>>>> Once we did that, it was time to say "we won" and get our people
>>>> back home..
>>>>
>>>> As you said, I support our people in harm's way, but not always
>>>> the
>>>> people that
>>>> sent them there..
>>>
>>> I agree ... regardless of whether pundits want to consider the war
>>> won or lost, I was in beaucoup battles in Nam and never lost a
>>> one!
>>
>> ...I flew scouts in a Cav Troop...always came home with a broomstick
>> tied to the periscope...heh...
>>>
>>> And to this day, I would work up a good spit for both Robert
>>> McNamara and Westmoreland were the opportunity to arise.
>>
>> ...I'll save some for LBJ, brother. The Tonkin Gulf Resolution
>> alone
>> accounted for 90% of us guys being sent over there...and *it* was
>> based on fabrication of events...
>>>
>>> ( Actually missed the chance with McNamara, but was too busy
>>> staying
>>> alive to grasp the vileness of the situation)
>>
>> ...I hear you, bro!
>
>Ever read "Giap"? He knew he had been beaten and said as much. Shame
>that American schoolteachers aren't as honest.
>
>As for saying "we won" and then going home, why bother? If you do
>that you're going to keep fighting the same war over and over again.
>Either finish the job or don't start it.
>
>The trouble with Iraq is that we're trying to rush the "finishing the
>job" part of it and it's going to end up a mess. Have you ever read
>the Iraqi constitution? It pays lip service to a lot of high ideals
>but has no checks and balances and mechanisms for guaranteeing those
>ideals.
Oh, a buddy of mine turned me on to "The Fall of Saigon" (an account
by a French author/reporter whom I can't seem to find the name of
right now...sheesh)...that, along with seeing documentation that I
trusted about Tonkin, was quite the mental watershed. We had no
business being involved in a Civil War...
cg
>
>--
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:16:59 GMT, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"mac davis" wrote:
>
>> "It's been my experience that if you grab someone by the balls,
>> their hearts and
>> minds follow"
>
>For years, had a framed poster on the wall that read:
>
>"When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."
>
>Lew
>
that is probably the actual quote, Lew..
Mine's filtered through 40 years of interference.. lol
mac
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