I've got in floor radiant heating in the garshop, and have been thinking...
If the power goes out, so goes the circulation pump and the heat. However,
were a propane (already there) generator installed, the circulation pump
would be all that's necessary to keep the heat going at its normal setting,
right?
Has anyone done anything like this? It seems to be almost too easy to not
do it.
Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as some
writers are incorrigible.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:bOj2l.380$P5.283
@nwrddc02.gnilink.net:
> "Puckdropper" wrote:
>
>> I've got in floor radiant heating in the garshop, and have been
>> thinking...
>> If the power goes out, so goes the circulation pump and the heat.
>> However,
>> were a propane (already there) generator installed, the circulation
>> pump
>> would be all that's necessary to keep the heat going at its normal
>> setting,
>> right?
>>
>> Has anyone done anything like this? It seems to be almost too easy
>> to not
>> do it.
>
> I once lived in a hot water heated house and lost power a few times,
> so can relate to above.
>
> Also considered what you are thinking about, but didn't act.
>
> You need to isolate three (3) circuits, the recirc pump, the gas
> valve, and the thermostat.
I forgot about the gas valve... it makes sense that it'd be electrically
operated. The thermostat seems to be a simple on-off switch, so it
shouldn't need anything special.
> None of these draw much power.
>
> The pump is probably 1/15-1/20 HP max.
>
> Rather than a generator, might consider a wet cell battery and an
> inverter.
>
> A couple of T-105 golf cart batteries in series gives you 12VDC and
> 200+ AH capacity which along with a 500W sine wave inverter gives you
> the package for maybe $500-$600.
It looks like propane generators start at that price point and go up.
The only advantage to a generator would be extra power to run things like
tools.
> The rewiring will be the biggest PITA part of the job.
Wouldn't it be as simple as moving the 120V connection from the breaker
box over to the alternate energy source? It wouldn't be auto switch
over, but the thermal capacitor (concrete) would keep the garshop warm
for several hours.
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
>
>
I'm curious now if someone's thought about integrating a small generator
into a boiler to solve this problem...
Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
In article <[email protected]>,
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
> I'm curious now if someone's thought about integrating a small generator
> into a boiler to solve this problem...
See:
http://www.whispergen.com/
--
Stuart Winsor
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
On Dec 17, 9:14 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Doug Winterburn" wrote:
> > I picked up two golf cart 6V batteries at Lowes for less than $70 a
> > pop
> > and a 1000 watt inverter at Costco for $50.
>
> At $50, sounds like it might be a modified square wave inverter.
Probably, Costco has sold Xantrex XPower 1000's off and on for $40 or
$50, depending on when you buy. Even though not sine wave, a terrific
buy for a 1KW sustained, 2KW surge inverter.
TrippLite makes some very nice units that are "UPS/inverters". It's
essentially an inverter with built-in charge control, you supply the
batteries. Add the two golf-cart batteries, and you're set. The low-
end ones aren't true sine waves, but I believe that their higher-end
ones are.
Puckdropper wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:bOj2l.380$P5.283
> @nwrddc02.gnilink.net:
>
>> "Puckdropper" wrote:
>>
>>> I've got in floor radiant heating in the garshop, and have been
>>> thinking...
>>> If the power goes out, so goes the circulation pump and the heat.
>>> However,
>>> were a propane (already there) generator installed, the circulation
>>> pump
>>> would be all that's necessary to keep the heat going at its normal
>>> setting,
>>> right?
>>>
>>> Has anyone done anything like this? It seems to be almost too easy
>>> to not
>>> do it.
>> I once lived in a hot water heated house and lost power a few times,
>> so can relate to above.
>>
>> Also considered what you are thinking about, but didn't act.
>>
>> You need to isolate three (3) circuits, the recirc pump, the gas
>> valve, and the thermostat.
>
> I forgot about the gas valve... it makes sense that it'd be electrically
> operated. The thermostat seems to be a simple on-off switch, so it
> shouldn't need anything special.
>
>> None of these draw much power.
>>
>> The pump is probably 1/15-1/20 HP max.
>>
>> Rather than a generator, might consider a wet cell battery and an
>> inverter.
>>
>> A couple of T-105 golf cart batteries in series gives you 12VDC and
>> 200+ AH capacity which along with a 500W sine wave inverter gives you
>> the package for maybe $500-$600.
>
> It looks like propane generators start at that price point and go up.
> The only advantage to a generator would be extra power to run things like
> tools.
>
>> The rewiring will be the biggest PITA part of the job.
>
> Wouldn't it be as simple as moving the 120V connection from the breaker
> box over to the alternate energy source? It wouldn't be auto switch
> over, but the thermal capacitor (concrete) would keep the garshop warm
> for several hours.
>
>> Have fun.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>
> I'm curious now if someone's thought about integrating a small generator
> into a boiler to solve this problem...
I got my Honda 2KW pure sine wave generator for $875 on Al Gore's
internet. It uses about 1 gal of gasoline for 8 hours at low load.
>
> Puckdropper
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I picked up two golf cart 6V batteries at Lowes for less than $70 a pop
> and a 1000 watt inverter at Costco for $50. This was all for a 5th
> wheel, but it would do the job for you.
Be sure to plug a charger for the batteries into the inverter to assure a
constant supply of power.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Doug Winterburn" wrote:
>
> http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/23/p/1/pt/29/product.asp
>
> Not enough info to tell; however, I'm on a sailing list with one of
> their design/application engineers.
>
> I ask him.
>
> Seems llike a winner for your 5th wheel.
>
> Does it affect the TV in any way? Snow, hum, etc.
>
> Lew
>
>
Everything works great with one little exception. I changed all the
120V night lites for electronic led night lights, and they seem to
"buzz" slightly. If they fry, I'll go back to the "Non-green" and power
sucking 4W 120V nite lites. I have already changed out all the 120V
incandescent bulbs for the curly green florescent crap - the light isn't
the same, but it extends dry camping time on batteries.
What's cool about the inverter is that I can run everything except the
AC and when the batteries get low, I can plug the converter (120V to 12V
charger) into the the generator (Honda 2000W) without missing a beat.
"Doug Winterburn" wrote:
> I picked up two golf cart 6V batteries at Lowes for less than $70 a
> pop
> and a 1000 watt inverter at Costco for $50.
At $50, sounds like it might be a modified square wave inverter.
AC motors are not real happy being fed modified square wave which is
why modified full sine wave was suggested.
Yes it's more expensive than modified square wave inverter.
Lew
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> "Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I picked up two golf cart 6V batteries at Lowes for less than $70 a pop
>> and a 1000 watt inverter at Costco for $50. This was all for a 5th
>> wheel, but it would do the job for you.
>
> Be sure to plug a charger for the batteries into the inverter to assure a
> constant supply of power.
>
>
The old perpetual motion machine :-)
I do plug the converter (120V -> 12V) into the generator and the shore
power into the inverter (12V -> 120V). Fire up the generator when the
batteries get a little low.
Also run the fridge and water heater on propane to keep the electrical
load as low as possible.
In article <[email protected]>, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Puckdropper" wrote:
>
>> I've got in floor radiant heating in the garshop, and have been thinking...
>> If the power goes out, so goes the circulation pump and the heat. However,
>> were a propane (already there) generator installed, the circulation pump
>> would be all that's necessary to keep the heat going at its normal setting,
>> right?
>>
>> Has anyone done anything like this? It seems to be almost too easy to not
>> do it.
>
>I once lived in a hot water heated house and lost power a few times,
>so can relate to above.
>
>Also considered what you are thinking about, but didn't act.
>
>You need to isolate three (3) circuits, the recirc pump, the gas
>valve, and the thermostat.
>
>None of these draw much power.
>
>The pump is probably 1/15-1/20 HP max.
Mmmmmm....dunno. I'd think a little heavier than that, but almost certainly
not over 1/6 HP. Still not much more power draw than a couple of light bulbs.
>
>Rather than a generator, might consider a wet cell battery and an
>inverter.
>
>A couple of T-105 golf cart batteries in series gives you 12VDC and
>200+ AH capacity which along with a 500W sine wave inverter gives you
>the package for maybe $500-$600.
Yabbut -- he already has the generator.
"Puckdropper" wrote:
> I've got in floor radiant heating in the garshop, and have been
> thinking...
> If the power goes out, so goes the circulation pump and the heat.
> However,
> were a propane (already there) generator installed, the circulation
> pump
> would be all that's necessary to keep the heat going at its normal
> setting,
> right?
>
> Has anyone done anything like this? It seems to be almost too easy
> to not
> do it.
I once lived in a hot water heated house and lost power a few times,
so can relate to above.
Also considered what you are thinking about, but didn't act.
You need to isolate three (3) circuits, the recirc pump, the gas
valve, and the thermostat.
None of these draw much power.
The pump is probably 1/15-1/20 HP max.
Rather than a generator, might consider a wet cell battery and an
inverter.
A couple of T-105 golf cart batteries in series gives you 12VDC and
200+ AH capacity which along with a 500W sine wave inverter gives you
the package for maybe $500-$600.
The rewiring will be the biggest PITA part of the job.
Have fun.
Lew
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Puckdropper" wrote:
>
>> I've got in floor radiant heating in the garshop, and have been
>> thinking...
>> If the power goes out, so goes the circulation pump and the heat.
>> However,
>> were a propane (already there) generator installed, the circulation
>> pump
>> would be all that's necessary to keep the heat going at its normal
>> setting,
>> right?
>>
>> Has anyone done anything like this? It seems to be almost too easy
>> to not
>> do it.
>
> I once lived in a hot water heated house and lost power a few times,
> so can relate to above.
>
> Also considered what you are thinking about, but didn't act.
>
> You need to isolate three (3) circuits, the recirc pump, the gas
> valve, and the thermostat.
>
> None of these draw much power.
>
> The pump is probably 1/15-1/20 HP max.
>
> Rather than a generator, might consider a wet cell battery and an
> inverter.
>
> A couple of T-105 golf cart batteries in series gives you 12VDC and
> 200+ AH capacity which along with a 500W sine wave inverter gives you
> the package for maybe $500-$600.
>
> The rewiring will be the biggest PITA part of the job.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
>
>
As Lew said:
I picked up two golf cart 6V batteries at Lowes for less than $70 a pop
and a 1000 watt inverter at Costco for $50. This was all for a 5th
wheel, but it would do the job for you.
"Doug Winterburn" wrote:
> Everything works great with one little exception. I changed all the
> 120V night lites for electronic led night lights, and they seem to
> "buzz" slightly.
That tells me it is not pure sine wave.
> If they fry, I'll go back to the "Non-green" and power
> sucking 4W 120V nite lites. I have already changed out all the
> 120V
> incandescent bulbs for the curly green florescent crap - the light
> isn't
> the same, but it extends dry camping time on batteries.
>
> What's cool about the inverter is that I can run everything except
> the
> AC and when the batteries get low, I can plug the converter (120V to
> 12V
> charger) into the the generator (Honda 2000W) without missing a
> beat.
If you are interested, there is a national parks ranger in Montana who
developed a high efficiency, 12 VDC fluorescent. fixture to be used in
a cabin in the boonies.
I was thinking about putting them on the boat at one time.
Maybe I can still chase him down.
Lew
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Doug Winterburn" wrote:
>
>> I picked up two golf cart 6V batteries at Lowes for less than $70 a
>> pop
>> and a 1000 watt inverter at Costco for $50.
>
> At $50, sounds like it might be a modified square wave inverter.
>
> AC motors are not real happy being fed modified square wave which is
> why modified full sine wave was suggested.
>
> Yes it's more expensive than modified square wave inverter.
>
> Lew
>
>
Could be, but it has worked well for me with motors:
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/23/p/1/pt/29/product.asp
In article <[email protected]>,
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>I'm curious now if someone's thought about integrating a small generator
>into a boiler to solve this problem...
>
>Puckdropper
Better yet, how about a propane or NG fuel cell?
--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
"Puckdropper" wrote:
> I forgot about the gas valve... it makes sense that it'd be
> electrically
> operated. The thermostat seems to be a simple on-off switch, so it
> shouldn't need anything special.
You need a manual transfer switch (DPDT) aand have it handle all the
emergency circuits.
It is either in "Normal" or "Standby" mode.
> It looks like propane generators start at that price point and go
> up.
Not only that, there are combustion air as well as flue gas issues.
> The only advantage to a generator would be extra power to run things
> like
> tools.
Want to run a table saw? You need a 10HP-5KW gasoline powered
contractor garade generator.
BTDT.
> Wouldn't it be as simple as moving the 120V connection from the
> breaker
> box over to the alternate energy source?
No, see above comment.
> I'm curious now if someone's thought about integrating a small
> generator
> into a boiler to solve this problem...
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Lew
In article <[email protected]>, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>I've got in floor radiant heating in the garshop, and have been thinking...
>If the power goes out, so goes the circulation pump and the heat. However,
>were a propane (already there) generator installed, the circulation pump
>would be all that's necessary to keep the heat going at its normal setting,
>right?
Close, but not quite. You also need to power the ignition system on the
boiler, and the aquastat. Couple hundred watts, tops, though, including the
circulator.
>
>Has anyone done anything like this? It seems to be almost too easy to not
>do it.
My entire house has hot water radiant heat: four loops (hence four
circulators), ten zone valves, ten thermostats, four transformers, and an
array of relays controlling it all. You better believe I power those from a
genset when the utility power goes away. And you're right, it's too easy to
not do it.