"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
> experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
Unfortunately, one doesn't need that first hand experience to complain about
Festool prices. I admit to not liking them at all, but I don't complain
about them because I do have first hand experience with several Festool
products. And since my initial foray into Festool territory gave me what I
wanted most which was dust collection, I've reconciled myself to those
prices. Coupled with Festool's 30 day, no hassle, full refund if you're not
completely satisifed with their products, there was really no risk for me to
take that first step into Festool territory to see if the tool met my needs.
There's a special type of satisfaction in buying and owning a tool that in
most cases, you know it will do what it's supposed to do first time and
everytime. Yeah, that satisfaction usually costs extra money. But for me
anyway, I'd much prefer that to buying some tool really cheaply that I'm
less confident about and always have the thought in the back of my minding
wondering if or when it was going to fail.
On Mar 18, 2:10=A0pm, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers =
to
> >> one of the ones you push, Festool :)
>
> > I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
> > that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
> > In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
> > few.
> > Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
> > and I'm not talking chocolates either.
> > No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
> > taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
> > Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
> > routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
> > Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with =A095%
> > of the performance for half the money.
>
> > Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
> > some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
>
> Thats why there is a smiley face behind it. Ok maybe "push" was the wrong
> word. Leon is always talkin Festool and Leon mentioned that PC was not wh=
at
> they use to be, which is true. I just made a comment about the difference=
in
> value to cost. Hell, I don't even know if Festool makes a router. Why is =
it
> that there is always someone that has to make a big deal about something
> that doesn't deserve it. Geeeeeeeeeeeez
Keep your shirt on, bro'. I didn't notice the smiley...my bad.... It
was neither a big deal, nor did I make it one.... just a gentle
ribbing. I was just trying to help you out by pointing out the error
of your ways before Swingman got a hold of you......>>>SMILY!!<<<
Myself... I am ordering a CEROS MIRKA because I am just too damned
awesome to be using that agricultural Festool brand. :o}
"Robatoy" wrote:
Make that 20 years .... That started with their belt sander motor
bearings, then the smaller bodies on the 'production' routers. I gave
up on them after that.
------------------------------------
The ONLY belt sander that PC ever made that was worth a good fiddly
fuck was the "Choo-Choo", Model 504, which may explain why the don't
make it any more.
Personally burned out the 350 & 360 series units several times before
biting the bullet ($) and getting the 504.
Like someone said, today's Porter-Cable and POS have a lot in common.
Lew
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
> some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
Ahhh......, but that begs the question, "Are there some hack fiddlers who
deserve Festools?"
On Mar 17, 5:53=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:iltps8$2fq$4@blue.=
rahul.net...
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Rich =A0<[email protected]> wrote:
> >>Thought you guys might want to know of this deal.
>
> >>http://tiny.cc/alyja
>
> > Sweet. =A0It's a low-end router, but it's got both the 1/4
> > and 1/2" collets. =A0Description doesn't say anything about
> > variable speed or electronic control, which probably means
> > it doesn't have it, but still, it's a Porter Cable.
>
> =A0but still, it's a Porter Cable
>
> That used to mean something 10 years ago. =A0Now you better do your homew=
ork.
> PC is not what it use'ta be as they are becoming more and more hobbiest
> grade.
Make that 20 years .... That started with their belt sander motor
bearings, then the smaller bodies on the 'production' routers. I gave
up on them after that.
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 14:06:57 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
>>>purchase, you would have a gripe. I cannot afford a Bently but don't
>>> gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range
>>> you
>>>believe Festool to be in.
>>
>> How many people are pushing (or even mentioning) Bentleys around here
>> on almost a daily basis, hmmm? If they were, some gripes might come
>> out in the wash. <shrug>
>
>How many here are actually pushing Festool other than reporting first hand
>knowledge about the product and the value of the product. I seriousely
>doubt any one here that uses Festool benefits a whole lot from a Festool
>sale.
Aw, c'mon, Leon. You three -gush- over Festools, every time.
>> Do I complain when people diss my HF line? <titter>
>
>I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that just because you don't see
>the value, it does not mean that value does not exist. No need to
>cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
>experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
I am familiar with the products. They just didn't let the vendors plug
anything in outside the store that day, so I can't judge performance.
I'm good at judging the quality (or lack thereof) of tools from their
feel and action, even unplugged, so I was disappointed when I didn't
feel the silky smoothness of Festool when I did pick them up and run
them through their ranges of motion and such. I couldn't tell any
difference from their Bosch, DeWalt, Ridgid, or Makita counterparts,
and that really surprised me. THAT is why I say "Festering" when I
see their prices.
From what you converts say, they probably perform much better with
power. I wish I knew someone local who would let me play with their
agro-colored toys sometime.
--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey
On Mar 18, 11:38=A0am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers to =
one
> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>
I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
few.
Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
and I'm not talking chocolates either.
No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
of the performance for half the money.
Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:32:43 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Bill" wrote:
>
>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>> pleased. So far, so good.
>----------------------------------------
>All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>complete.
OK, boys, proof that U.S. manufacturing is not yet dead:
http://tinyurl.com/4dtr4al
http://tinyurl.com/4b73ode
Oy vay!
--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:32:43 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Bill" wrote:
>>
>>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>>> pleased. So far, so good.
>>----------------------------------------
>>All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>>complete.
>
> OK, boys, proof that U.S. manufacturing is not yet dead:
> http://tinyurl.com/4dtr4al
> http://tinyurl.com/4b73ode
>
> Oy vay!
Used to be a place in Seaside or Rockaway that sold all of that stuff,
including Gnomes and concrete deer. Back in the day you could even get the
hitching posts - you know the ones. 'Course the Oregon coast also was the
last bastion of Sambo's restaurants (Lincoln City).
On Mar 18, 2:13=A0pm, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast
dot net> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>
>
> > Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
> > some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
>
> Ahhh......, =A0but that begs the question, "Are there some hack fiddlers =
who
> deserve Festools?"
IF the hack fiddler can't fiddle worth a fig, but he can make a nice
jewelry box...yes, he/she could deserve a Festool. :-)
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:6a6fc7fb-e008-4e55-bfb1-4c15c768131a@s18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 2:13 pm, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast
dot net> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>
>
> > Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
> > some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
>
> Ahhh......, but that begs the question, "Are there some hack fiddlers who
> deserve Festools?"
IF the hack fiddler can't fiddle worth a fig, but he can make a nice
jewelry box...yes, he/she could deserve a Festool. :-)
Like this'n? ;~)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/4335052930/#/photos/lcb11211/4335052930/lightbox/
"Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Thought you guys might want to know of this deal.
>>
>>http://tiny.cc/alyja
>
> Sweet. It's a low-end router, but it's got both the 1/4
> and 1/2" collets. Description doesn't say anything about
> variable speed or electronic control, which probably means
> it doesn't have it, but still, it's a Porter Cable.
but still, it's a Porter Cable
That used to mean something 10 years ago. Now you better do your homework.
PC is not what it use'ta be as they are becoming more and more hobbiest
grade.
On Mar 18, 4:38=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Mar 18, 11:38=A0am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers =
to one
> >> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>
> >I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
> >that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
> >In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
> >few.
> >Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
> >and I'm not talking chocolates either.
> >No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
> >taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
> >Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
> >routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
> >Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with =A095%
> >of the performance for half the money.
>
> Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
> the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
> gripe at 'em about.
BUT... for many of their tools and dust-collection integration,
Festool is unbeatable.
Their sanders alone are unequalled.... and worth every nickel.
That's the feedback I'm getting, without exception, about the Tracksaw
System as well... again, another winner.
>
> >Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
> >some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
>
> The number of unworthies comes up to at least 80% of all violinists,
> doesn't it, Toy? =A0Then again, a really nice tool can make a hack a bit
> better, so what's the harm? =A0Now, -which- are the really nice tools?
In powertools, across the board, you can't lose with Festool. Is their
jigsaw THAT much better than Bosch's? Are their routers THAT much
better than Milwaukee's? Is that Kapex (aside from dust-collection)
THAT much better than quite a few good sliders, like the Makita, newer
Bosch, and now that Milwaukee brute?
Does anybody else make a Domino? Well? Huh? I'm asking!!
Their cordless drills? Overpriced, IMHO, as is their electric
planer... but.. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG buying ANY Festool product..and
THAT, my dear C-less, is worth a shitload to a guy who wants
reliability and integration.... and has a solid enough business,
current and in outlook, that he can afford those expenditures.
Does Snap-On make shite? Will an ACE hardware store 2.00 dollar
screwdriver do?
>
> --
> A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -=
- William S. Burroughs
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:49:25 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
>> experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
>
>Unfortunately, one doesn't need that first hand experience to complain about
>Festool prices. I admit to not liking them at all, but I don't complain
>about them because I do have first hand experience with several Festool
>products. And since my initial foray into Festool territory gave me what I
>wanted most which was dust collection, I've reconciled myself to those
>prices. Coupled with Festool's 30 day, no hassle, full refund if you're not
>completely satisifed with their products, there was really no risk for me to
>take that first step into Festool territory to see if the tool met my needs.
>
>There's a special type of satisfaction in buying and owning a tool that in
>most cases, you know it will do what it's supposed to do first time and
>everytime. Yeah, that satisfaction usually costs extra money. But for me
>anyway, I'd much prefer that to buying some tool really cheaply that I'm
>less confident about and always have the thought in the back of my minding
>wondering if or when it was going to fail.
I've lived with crappy tools for many years but didn't want to replace them
because they still "worked". When I finally did replace the original Sears
crap the difference was amazing and I promised myself that I'd never buy a
cheap tool again (unless it was a one-job throw-away). If I couldn't afford
the "best", I didn't buy anything. Now that I'm in a position where I can buy
pretty much anything I want, I do. The Kapex (or a Laguna BS, for that
matter) is still beyond what I'm willing to pay.
On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:17:45 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:17:46 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> see the need.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a
>>>>>>>breaker
>>>>>>>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not
>>>>>>>unusual
>>>>>>>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my
>>>>>>>cabinet
>>>>>>>saw
>>>>>>>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you
>>>>>>>might
>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker
>>>>>> trips
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>>>>
>>>>>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern breakers.
>>>>>Too
>>>>>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to the
>>>>>breakers.
>>>>
>>>> I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll keep a
>>>> lookout for it in the future, though.
>>>
>>>Unfortunately I have experienced it with my new house and the replacement
>>>breaker. On a 20 amp dedicated circuit with a small freezer, and a
>>>compressor. One a week when both would come on at the same time the
>>>breaker
>>>would trip. Continued with the replacement. The solution was to put one
>>>on
>>>another circuit. Connections at breaker box and recepticle are tight.
>>>The
>>>electrician hinted at the solution and the problem... ;~(
>>
>> Why do you say that that was a problem with the breaker? Sounds normal to
>> me.
>
>Compressor max load, 15 amp, Freezer max load according to repair technition
>2 amp. Well under the 20 amp rating.
The startup current exceeds the running current for these sorts of devices by
several times.
>Compressor does fine on a 15 amp circuit. I suspect that the freezer pulls
>much more than 2 amps and according to the electrician I really don't have
>a breaker problem according to industry standards. He listed a host of
>brands of breakers and their designed trip points. Most all according to
>him trip at 80% load. He indicated that they ain't like they ust'a be. A
>couple on his list would trip at the designated amp rating however they are
>terribly expensive and or no longer in business.
The compressor may draw 50A when it starts.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:17:45 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:17:46 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> see the need.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a
>>>>>>>>breaker
>>>>>>>>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not
>>>>>>>>unusual
>>>>>>>>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my
>>>>>>>>cabinet
>>>>>>>>saw
>>>>>>>>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you
>>>>>>>>might
>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but
>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker
>>>>>>> trips
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern
>>>>>>breakers.
>>>>>>Too
>>>>>>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>breakers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll keep
>>>>> a
>>>>> lookout for it in the future, though.
>>>>
>>>>Unfortunately I have experienced it with my new house and the
>>>>replacement
>>>>breaker. On a 20 amp dedicated circuit with a small freezer, and a
>>>>compressor. One a week when both would come on at the same time the
>>>>breaker
>>>>would trip. Continued with the replacement. The solution was to put
>>>>one
>>>>on
>>>>another circuit. Connections at breaker box and recepticle are tight.
>>>>The
>>>>electrician hinted at the solution and the problem... ;~(
>>>
>>> Why do you say that that was a problem with the breaker? Sounds normal
>>> to
>>> me.
>>
>>Compressor max load, 15 amp, Freezer max load according to repair
>>technition
>>2 amp. Well under the 20 amp rating.
>
> The startup current exceeds the running current for these sorts of devices
> by
> several times.
>
>>Compressor does fine on a 15 amp circuit. I suspect that the freezer
>>pulls
>>much more than 2 amps and according to the electrician I really don't
>>have
>>a breaker problem according to industry standards. He listed a host of
>>brands of breakers and their designed trip points. Most all according to
>>him trip at 80% load. He indicated that they ain't like they ust'a be. A
>>couple on his list would trip at the designated amp rating however they
>>are
>>terribly expensive and or no longer in business.
>
> The compressor may draw 50A when it starts.
Understand that start up is greater than running speed however it seldom
tripped a 15 amp breaker in my old home when it came on and a 15 amp
router, dust collector, and radio were all already running on the same
circuit. Come summer time that was another story.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:86c24899-f4c8-436a-b437-4ca044477bb1@y26g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 4:38 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers
> >> to one
> >> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>
> >I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
> >that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
> >In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
> >few.
> >Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
> >and I'm not talking chocolates either.
> >No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
> >taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
> >Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
> >routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
> >Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
> >of the performance for half the money.
>
> Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
> the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
> gripe at 'em about.
BUT... for many of their tools and dust-collection integration,
Festool is unbeatable.
Their sanders alone are unequalled.... and worth every nickel.
That's the feedback I'm getting, without exception, about the Tracksaw
System as well... again, another winner.
>
> >Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
> >some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
>
> The number of unworthies comes up to at least 80% of all violinists,
> doesn't it, Toy? Then again, a really nice tool can make a hack a bit
> better, so what's the harm? Now, -which- are the really nice tools?
In powertools, across the board, you can't lose with Festool. Is their
jigsaw THAT much better than Bosch's? Are their routers THAT much
better than Milwaukee's? Is that Kapex (aside from dust-collection)
THAT much better than quite a few good sliders, like the Makita, newer
Bosch, and now that Milwaukee brute?
Does anybody else make a Domino? Well? Huh? I'm asking!!
Have you seen the new yet to be released Festool Jigsaw? The battery
powered version willl work with any Festool battery that will fit back to
2006 and will use any voltage battery. The LED light that strobes like a
timing light to give a better view of the blade and makes it appear to not
be moving when in an up right position. The shoe comes off so you can
replace it with a "dial in your bevel angle" shoe that lets you lean the saw
over to the desired bevel, left or right, with out readjusting. The base
forms a "V" obtuse or acute.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/carvex-a-tricked-out-jigsaw-from-festool?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+(Popular+Woodworking)
Their cordless drills? Overpriced, IMHO, as is their electric
planer... but.. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG buying ANY Festool product..and
THAT, my dear C-less, is worth a shitload to a guy who wants
reliability and integration.... and has a solid enough business,
current and in outlook, that he can afford those expenditures.
New drill coming out also with right angle attachment, $240-$300 range.
"Leon" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>"Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> but still, it's a Porter Cable
>>>>
>>>> That used to mean something 10 years ago. Now you better do your
>>>> homework. PC is not what it use'ta be as they are becoming more and more
>>>> hobbiest grade.
>>
>> :( :(
>>
>>>Agree that PC quality has gone downhill. But I do believe they still make
>>>a
>>>decent router.
>>
>> Actually, I have one about four years old with the electronic speed
>> control and it seems solid and reliable to me.
>
>
>I should hope so, but will it last 15~20 years like the old stuff did? I
>have a 22 year old PC right angle ROS that I retired 3 years ago, it still
>runs as good as it did when new although I have worn out the pad 3 or 4
>times, same goes for my old PC SpedBloc. The SpedBloc however did poop out
>about 5 years ago and I replaced it with the same model but unfortunately it
>is not the same tool. That was my last PC purchase. My type 1 557 plate
>joiner still works well as did its belt driven predecessor.
>
>
My 7336 ROS (1991) and two 690 Routers (1993 and 2002) are rock solid.
Have had to replace the PSA pad on the 7336 once, just this year.
scott
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers to
>>> one
>>> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>>>
>>
>>I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
>>that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
>>In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
>>few.
>>Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
>>and I'm not talking chocolates either.
>>No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
>>taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
>>Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
>>routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
>>Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
>>of the performance for half the money.
>
> Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
> the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
> gripe at 'em about.
I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
purchase, you would have a gripe. I cannot afford a Bently but don't
gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range you
believe Festool to be in.
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 22:30:32 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've not
>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker trips
>> with
>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>
>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern breakers. Too
>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to the
>breakers.
These things were never designed to go aboard the Ark, guys.
Yeah, what amperage are common GFIs set to kick off, 5A or sumpin?
Picky li'l bastids, ain't they?
--
"I probably became a libertarian through exposure to tough-minded
professors" James Buchanan, Armen Alchian, Milton Friedman "who
encouraged me to think with my brain instead of my heart. I
learned that you have to evaluate the effects of public policy
as opposed to intentions."
-- Walter E. Williams
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 22:30:32 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've
>>> not
>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker
>>> trips
>>> with
>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>
>>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern breakers.
>>Too
>>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to the
>>breakers.
>
> These things were never designed to go aboard the Ark, guys.
>
> Yeah, what amperage are common GFIs set to kick off, 5A or sumpin?
> Picky li'l bastids, ain't they?
I think they will trip at any amperage, GFI. They are suppose to trip if
the ground carries the current, indicating a short, instead of only the
black and white leads. ARC fault is a different matter altoghther and is
problematic from what I understand.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>> see the need.
>>>
>>>>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a
>>>>breaker
>>>>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not
>>>>unusual
>>>>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my cabinet
>>>>saw
>>>>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you might
>>>>be
>>>>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>>
>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've
>>> not
>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker
>>> trips
>>> with
>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>
>>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern breakers.
>>Too
>>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to the
>>breakers.
>
> I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll keep a
> lookout for it in the future, though.
Unfortunately I have experienced it with my new house and the replacement
breaker. On a 20 amp dedicated circuit with a small freezer, and a
compressor. One a week when both would come on at the same time the breaker
would trip. Continued with the replacement. The solution was to put one on
another circuit. Connections at breaker box and recepticle are tight. The
electrician hinted at the solution and the problem... ;~(
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Somebody wrote:
>
>>If a 20A breaker trips
>> with
>> less than 20A, it's defective.
> --------------------------------------
> Spoken like a true dumb fuck.
>
> It all depends on the thermal environment.
>
> Lew
>
>
Totally agree with that. I had a breaker triping problem in the hot summer,
using the same power tools, that went away when the temperature cooled off.
Winter, Spring, and Fa, there was never a problem.
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:26:28 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:32:43 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Bill" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>>>>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>>>>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>>>>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>>>>> pleased. So far, so good.
>>>>----------------------------------------
>>>>All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>>>>complete.
>>>
>>> OK, boys, proof that U.S. manufacturing is not yet dead:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/4dtr4al
>>> http://tinyurl.com/4b73ode
>>>
>>> Oy vay!
>>
>>Used to be a place in Seaside or Rockaway that sold all of that stuff,
>>including Gnomes and concrete deer. Back in the day you could even get the
>>hitching posts - you know the ones. 'Course the Oregon coast also was the
>>last bastion of Sambo's restaurants (Lincoln City).
>
> Hey, the good stuff is still available. <gag>
> http://tinyurl.com/4q696g9
And a Very High Sellout Risk!!
>
>
> And music to suit: http://tinyurl.com/4fbkklh
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:26:28 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:32:43 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Bill" wrote:
>>>
>>>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>>>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>>>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>>>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>>>> pleased. So far, so good.
>>>----------------------------------------
>>>All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>>>complete.
>>
>> OK, boys, proof that U.S. manufacturing is not yet dead:
>> http://tinyurl.com/4dtr4al
>> http://tinyurl.com/4b73ode
>>
>> Oy vay!
>
>Used to be a place in Seaside or Rockaway that sold all of that stuff,
>including Gnomes and concrete deer. Back in the day you could even get the
>hitching posts - you know the ones. 'Course the Oregon coast also was the
>last bastion of Sambo's restaurants (Lincoln City).
Hey, the good stuff is still available. <gag>
http://tinyurl.com/4q696g9
And music to suit: http://tinyurl.com/4fbkklh
--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 22:30:32 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:19:16 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 08:17:21 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:49:25 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first
>>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>>> experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Unfortunately, one doesn't need that first hand experience to complain
>>>>>>>about
>>>>>>>Festool prices. I admit to not liking them at all, but I don't
>>>>>>>complain
>>>>>>>about them because I do have first hand experience with several
>>>>>>>Festool
>>>>>>>products. And since my initial foray into Festool territory gave me
>>>>>>>what
>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>wanted most which was dust collection, I've reconciled myself to those
>>>>>>>prices. Coupled with Festool's 30 day, no hassle, full refund if
>>>>>>>you're
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>completely satisifed with their products, there was really no risk for
>>>>>>>me
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>take that first step into Festool territory to see if the tool met my
>>>>>>>needs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There's a special type of satisfaction in buying and owning a tool
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>most cases, you know it will do what it's supposed to do first time
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>everytime. Yeah, that satisfaction usually costs extra money. But for
>>>>>>>me
>>>>>>>anyway, I'd much prefer that to buying some tool really cheaply that
>>>>>>>I'm
>>>>>>>less confident about and always have the thought in the back of my
>>>>>>>minding
>>>>>>>wondering if or when it was going to fail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've lived with crappy tools for many years but didn't want to replace
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> because they still "worked". When I finally did replace the original
>>>>>> Sears
>>>>>> crap the difference was amazing and I promised myself that I'd never
>>>>>> buy
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> cheap tool again (unless it was a one-job throw-away). If I couldn't
>>>>>> afford
>>>>>> the "best", I didn't buy anything. Now that I'm in a position where I
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> buy
>>>>>> pretty much anything I want, I do. The Kapex (or a Laguna BS, for
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> matter) is still beyond what I'm willing to pay.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would love to own a Kapex but I probably would not use it. I have a
>>>>>Delta
>>>>>CMS and absolutely quit using it, in the shop, when I bought a cabinet
>>>>>saw
>>>>>and found it to be superior,coupled with the Dubby jigs, compared to the
>>>>>miter saw.
>>>>
>>>> I looked at the Kapex, for about a microsecond, before I bought a Bosch
>>>> to
>>>> replace my HF. I'll likely still use the HF rebuilding a fence this
>>>> spring. I
>>>> won't fear leaving it outside. ;-)
>>>
>>>Is it the new style Bosch with the articulating arm?
>>
>> No, the old style.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I do have the LT16 HD Laguna however.... You just walk up to it,
>>>>>tension
>>>>>the blade, turn it on, and start cutting. It has been months since I
>>>>>switched blades so there has been no guide adjustments and it has
>>>>>probably
>>>>>been a couple of years since I have adjusted the top wheel tilt angle
>>>>>regardless of which blade is mounted. When you are ready to simply cut
>>>>>with
>>>>>the saw and quit tweeking the guides or top wheel the Laguna and or the
>>>>>MiniMax saws fill the bill. I avoided my old BS in the past simply
>>>>>because
>>>>>of the adjustements that were constantly needed, no longer. Oh and the
>>>>>4.5
>>>>>hp monster hanging off the back side of the saw never strains. ;~) AND
>>>>>oddly the longer 150" blades are easier to deal with then folding up or
>>>>>opening than the short ones.
>>>>
>>>> Would you STOP! <sheesh> ;-) I got into the Festool swamp listening to
>>>> you
>>>> guys. I don't want to spend as much on a bandsaw as I did on the Unisaw.
>>>> ;-)
>>>
>>>LOL, well when you want to work "with" the saw instead of "on" the
>>>saw.....
>>>;~)
>>
>> <mutter>
>>
>>>> I wouldn't go for a motor that big. I'd rather not wire that much juice
>>>> into
>>>> the "shop". Not that it would be impossible (the "shop has no walls
>>>> yet),
>>>> but
>>>> 20A, 240V is enough.
>>>
>>>Actually it will run on 20 amp 240 and that is the smallest IIRC motor
>>>available on the HD series saws. The Baldor motor requires 19 amp in 240
>>>volt mode and 38 amp in 120 volt mode. My garage has a single 30 amp 240
>>>volt receptacle.
>>
>> I might do that, but I really don't want to. I guess it's that I really
>> don't
>> see the need.
>>
>>>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a
>>>breaker
>>>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not
>>>unusual
>>>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my cabinet
>>>saw
>>>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you might be
>>>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>
>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've not
>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker trips
>> with
>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>
>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern breakers. Too
>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to the
>breakers.
I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll keep a
lookout for it in the future, though.
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 14:06:57 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>>How many here are actually pushing Festool other than reporting first hand
>>knowledge about the product and the value of the product. I seriousely
>>doubt any one here that uses Festool benefits a whole lot from a Festool
>>sale.
>
> Aw, c'mon, Leon. You three -gush- over Festools, every time.
>
I like Festool, I get no benefit from any one buying one.
>
>>> Do I complain when people diss my HF line? <titter>
>>
>>I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that just because you don't
>>see
>>the value, it does not mean that value does not exist. No need to
>>cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
>>experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
>
> I am familiar with the products. They just didn't let the vendors plug
> anything in outside the store that day, so I can't judge performance.
>
> I'm good at judging the quality (or lack thereof) of tools from their
> feel and action, even unplugged, so I was disappointed when I didn't
> feel the silky smoothness of Festool when I did pick them up and run
> them through their ranges of motion and such. I couldn't tell any
> difference from their Bosch, DeWalt, Ridgid, or Makita counterparts,
> and that really surprised me. THAT is why I say "Festering" when I
> see their prices.
Ignorance guides your thought process. You think you are good at judging
quality. Untill you actually use the tool you don't know squat about how
well that tool operates. Results, day in and day out are what count.
>
> From what you converts say, they probably perform much better with
> power.
Duh!
I wish I knew someone local who would let me play with their
> agro-colored toys sometime.
Any one that sells them should let you try them, even if you mail order you
have 30 days to decide.
"Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> but still, it's a Porter Cable
>>>
>>> That used to mean something 10 years ago. Now you better do your
>>> homework. PC is not what it use'ta be as they are becoming more and more
>>> hobbiest grade.
>
> :( :(
>
>>Agree that PC quality has gone downhill. But I do believe they still make
>>a
>>decent router.
>
> Actually, I have one about four years old with the electronic speed
> control and it seems solid and reliable to me.
I should hope so, but will it last 15~20 years like the old stuff did? I
have a 22 year old PC right angle ROS that I retired 3 years ago, it still
runs as good as it did when new although I have worn out the pad 3 or 4
times, same goes for my old PC SpedBloc. The SpedBloc however did poop out
about 5 years ago and I replaced it with the same model but unfortunately it
is not the same tool. That was my last PC purchase. My type 1 557 plate
joiner still works well as did its belt driven predecessor.
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>>I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
>>purchase, you would have a gripe. I cannot afford a Bently but don't
>> gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range
>> you
>>believe Festool to be in.
>
> How many people are pushing (or even mentioning) Bentleys around here
> on almost a daily basis, hmmm? If they were, some gripes might come
> out in the wash. <shrug>
>
How many here are actually pushing Festool other than reporting first hand
knowledge about the product and the value of the product. I seriousely
doubt any one here that uses Festool benefits a whole lot from a Festool
sale.
> Do I complain when people diss my HF line? <titter>
I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that just because you don't see
the value, it does not mean that value does not exist. No need to
cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
"Leon" wrote:
> Compressor does fine on a 15 amp circuit. I suspect that the
> freezer pulls much more than 2 amps and according to the
> electrician I really don't have a breaker problem according to
> industry standards. He listed a host of brands of breakers and
> their designed trip points. Most all according to him trip at 80%
> load. He indicated that they ain't like they ust'a be. A couple on
> his list would trip at the designated amp rating however they are
> terribly expensive and or no longer in business.
-----------------------------------
Thermal-magnetic c'bkrs are designed to carry 100% of name plate
rating on a continuous basis in free air.
Mount the c'bkr in an enclosure and a 20% thermal de-rate applies.
A load center (panel) is considered an enclosure.
Thus the following applies:
15A c'bkr will carry 15(80%) = 12Amps continuous
20A c'bkr will carry 20(80%) = 16Amps continuous
30A c'bkr will carry 30(80%) = 24Amps continuous
No magic involved, just basic engineering.
Lew
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> Compressor does fine on a 15 amp circuit. I suspect that the
>> freezer pulls much more than 2 amps and according to the
>> electrician I really don't have a breaker problem according to
>> industry standards. He listed a host of brands of breakers and
>> their designed trip points. Most all according to him trip at 80%
>> load. He indicated that they ain't like they ust'a be. A couple on
>> his list would trip at the designated amp rating however they are
>> terribly expensive and or no longer in business.
> -----------------------------------
> Thermal-magnetic c'bkrs are designed to carry 100% of name plate
> rating on a continuous basis in free air.
>
> Mount the c'bkr in an enclosure and a 20% thermal de-rate applies.
>
> A load center (panel) is considered an enclosure.
>
> Thus the following applies:
>
> 15A c'bkr will carry 15(80%) = 12Amps continuous
>
> 20A c'bkr will carry 20(80%) = 16Amps continuous
> 30A c'bkr will carry 30(80%) = 24Amps continuous
>
> No magic involved, just basic engineering.
>
> Lew
That all sounds in line Lew.
On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:17:46 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>>> see the need.
>>>>
>>>>>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a
>>>>>breaker
>>>>>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not
>>>>>unusual
>>>>>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my cabinet
>>>>>saw
>>>>>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you might
>>>>>be
>>>>>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>>>
>>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've
>>>> not
>>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker
>>>> trips
>>>> with
>>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>>
>>>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern breakers.
>>>Too
>>>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to the
>>>breakers.
>>
>> I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll keep a
>> lookout for it in the future, though.
>
>Unfortunately I have experienced it with my new house and the replacement
>breaker. On a 20 amp dedicated circuit with a small freezer, and a
>compressor. One a week when both would come on at the same time the breaker
>would trip. Continued with the replacement. The solution was to put one on
>another circuit. Connections at breaker box and recepticle are tight. The
>electrician hinted at the solution and the problem... ;~(
Why do you say that that was a problem with the breaker? Sounds normal to me.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:17:46 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>> see the need.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a
>>>>>>breaker
>>>>>>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not
>>>>>>unusual
>>>>>>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my
>>>>>>cabinet
>>>>>>saw
>>>>>>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you
>>>>>>might
>>>>>>be
>>>>>>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>>>>
>>>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've
>>>>> not
>>>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker
>>>>> trips
>>>>> with
>>>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>>>
>>>>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern breakers.
>>>>Too
>>>>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to the
>>>>breakers.
>>>
>>> I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll keep a
>>> lookout for it in the future, though.
>>
>>Unfortunately I have experienced it with my new house and the replacement
>>breaker. On a 20 amp dedicated circuit with a small freezer, and a
>>compressor. One a week when both would come on at the same time the
>>breaker
>>would trip. Continued with the replacement. The solution was to put one
>>on
>>another circuit. Connections at breaker box and recepticle are tight.
>>The
>>electrician hinted at the solution and the problem... ;~(
>
> Why do you say that that was a problem with the breaker? Sounds normal to
> me.
Compressor max load, 15 amp, Freezer max load according to repair technition
2 amp. Well under the 20 amp rating.
Compressor does fine on a 15 amp circuit. I suspect that the freezer pulls
much more than 2 amps and according to the electrician I really don't have
a breaker problem according to industry standards. He listed a host of
brands of breakers and their designed trip points. Most all according to
him trip at 80% load. He indicated that they ain't like they ust'a be. A
couple on his list would trip at the designated amp rating however they are
terribly expensive and or no longer in business.
On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:04:37 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 22:30:32 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've
>>>> not
>>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker
>>>> trips
>>>> with
>>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>>
>>>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern breakers.
>>>Too
>>>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to the
>>>breakers.
>>
>> These things were never designed to go aboard the Ark, guys.
>>
>> Yeah, what amperage are common GFIs set to kick off, 5A or sumpin?
>> Picky li'l bastids, ain't they?
>
>
>I think they will trip at any amperage, GFI. They are suppose to trip if
>the ground carries the current, indicating a short, instead of only the
>black and white leads.
Not if "the ground carries current", rather, if *not* only the hot and neutral
(black and white). If there is a leakage path somewhere else they will trip
also. IOW, the ground wire has nothing to do with it.
>ARC fault is a different matter altoghther and is
>problematic from what I understand.
Wouldn't surprise me, though GFCI had a lot of teething problems, too. Those
are pretty much gone now, so you can assume that you have a problem if there's
a trip.
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Like this'n? ;~)
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/4335052930/#/photos/lcb11211/4335052930/lightbox/
>
> That's not a jewelery box. Admit it, you were making a tool box for all
> your Festool accessories and decided it wasn't big enough. <g>
>
That why I built 2 ;~)
On Mar 19, 12:56=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers=
to
> >>> one
> >>> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>
> >>I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
> >>that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
> >>In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
> >>few.
> >>Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
> >>and I'm not talking chocolates either.
> >>No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
> >>taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
> >>Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
> >>routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
> >>Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with =A095%
> >>of the performance for half the money.
>
> > Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
> > the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
> > gripe at 'em about.
>
> I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
> purchase, you would have a gripe. =A0I cannot afford a Bently but don't
> =A0gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range=
you
> believe =A0Festool to be in.
The profit margins C-less thinks are so high are in reality nowhere
near that range.
Festool annual sales currently run about 200 million. They have to
compete with the big dogs and insane margins simply won't let them
compete. I would be surprised if they made 10% on their gross
turnover.
I am also willing to bet that the margins are way higher for HF shit.
Their router, for instance, maybe costs them 15 bucks to make because
they spend bugger-all on R&D (They steal all ideas), use inferior
materials and pay their workers dick-all in wages. Those commie
bastards are ripping you off, C-less! $ 59.00 for that router? Guess
who's screwing who here?
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:37:48 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>How do you plan to Clean it?
>>
>> A bristle brush and water from a garden hose? Birdchit's easy, mon.
>
>Got the statuary in the middle just waiting to bark a knuckle ...
Silly wabbit. http://tinyurl.com/5thq2uv Cut the bristles down to
fit it under the low spots and Roberta's yer auntie.
--
"I probably became a libertarian through exposure to tough-minded
professors" James Buchanan, Armen Alchian, Milton Friedman "who
encouraged me to think with my brain instead of my heart. I
learned that you have to evaluate the effects of public policy
as opposed to intentions."
-- Walter E. Williams
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Sweet. It's a low-end router, but it's got both the 1/4
>> and 1/2" collets. Description doesn't say anything about
>> variable speed or electronic control, which probably means
>> it doesn't have it, but still, it's a Porter Cable.
> but still, it's a Porter Cable
> That used to mean something 10 years ago. Now you better do your
> homework. PC is not what it use'ta be as they are becoming more and more
> hobbiest grade.
Yes, sad to say. It's the old formula, big company buys smaller company,
keeps the name, drops the quality. PC might not be done to Black & Decker
level yet, but they're headed there.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Like this'n? ;~)
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/4335052930/#/photos/lcb11211/4335052930/lightbox/
That's not a jewelery box. Admit it, you were making a tool box for all your
Festool accessories and decided it wasn't big enough. <g>
On Mar 19, 11:51=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:57:40 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Mar 19, 12:56=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>news:[email protected]...
>
> >> > On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >>On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these rout=
ers to
> >> >>> one
> >> >>> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>
> >> >>I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agr=
ee
> >> >>that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
> >> >>In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just=
a
> >> >>few.
> >> >>Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil=
'
> >> >>and I'm not talking chocolates either.
> >> >>No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everythin=
g,
> >> >>taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
> >> >>Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
> >> >>routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
> >> >>Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with =A09=
5%
> >> >>of the performance for half the money.
>
> >> > Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed =
up
> >> > the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything =
to
> >> > gripe at 'em about.
>
> >> I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
> >> purchase, you would have a gripe. =A0I cannot afford a Bently but don'=
t
> >> =A0gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the ra=
nge you
> >> believe =A0Festool to be in.
>
> >The profit margins C-less thinks are so high are in reality nowhere
> >near that range.
> >Festool annual sales currently run about 200 million. They have to
> >compete with the big dogs and insane margins simply won't let them
> >compete. I would be surprised if they made 10% on their gross
> >turnover.
> >I am also willing to bet that the margins are way higher for HF shit.
> >Their router, for instance, maybe costs them 15 bucks to make because
> >they spend bugger-all on R&D (They steal all ideas), use inferior
> >materials and pay their workers dick-all in wages. Those commie
>
> Do you realize that the Red Dragon Noodle and Machine Tool Factory is
> also paying its laborers at much higher rates than other industries?
> Workers in those factories are VERY happy to be working there.
> Googlit.
>
> >bastards are ripping you off, C-less! $ 59.00 for that router? Guess
> >who's screwing who here?
>
> I think mine cost $32 or thereabouts.
>
> (See, Leon? People diss HF, too. =A0Get over it.)
>
> --
> "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
> against his government." =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --Edward Abbey
People who buy HF tools support communism.
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:57:40 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 19, 12:56Â am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >>On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers to
>> >>> one
>> >>> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>>
>> >>I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
>> >>that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
>> >>In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
>> >>few.
>> >>Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
>> >>and I'm not talking chocolates either.
>> >>No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
>> >>taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
>> >>Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
>> >>routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
>> >>Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with  95%
>> >>of the performance for half the money.
>>
>> > Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
>> > the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
>> > gripe at 'em about.
>>
>> I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
>> purchase, you would have a gripe. Â I cannot afford a Bently but don't
>> Â gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range you
>> believe  Festool to be in.
>
>The profit margins C-less thinks are so high are in reality nowhere
>near that range.
>Festool annual sales currently run about 200 million. They have to
>compete with the big dogs and insane margins simply won't let them
>compete. I would be surprised if they made 10% on their gross
>turnover.
>I am also willing to bet that the margins are way higher for HF shit.
>Their router, for instance, maybe costs them 15 bucks to make because
>they spend bugger-all on R&D (They steal all ideas), use inferior
>materials and pay their workers dick-all in wages. Those commie
Do you realize that the Red Dragon Noodle and Machine Tool Factory is
also paying its laborers at much higher rates than other industries?
Workers in those factories are VERY happy to be working there.
Googlit.
>bastards are ripping you off, C-less! $ 59.00 for that router? Guess
>who's screwing who here?
I think mine cost $32 or thereabouts.
(See, Leon? People diss HF, too. Get over it.)
--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey
On Mar 18, 7:54=A0pm, [email protected] (Edward A. Falk) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>
> Rich =A0<[email protected]> wrote:
> >Leon wrote:
>
> >> =A0but still, it's a Porter Cable
>
> >> That used to mean something 10 years ago. =A0Now you better do your
> >> homework. PC is not what it use'ta be as they are becoming more and mo=
re
> >> hobbiest grade.
>
> :( :(
>
> >Agree that PC quality has gone downhill. But I do believe they still mak=
e a
> >decent router.
>
> Actually, I have one about four years old with the electronic speed
> control and it seems solid and reliable to me.
>
> --
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -Ed Falk, [email protected]
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
That 557 biscuit joiner seems to be an okay machine as well. It's not
ALL crap... but there *is* 'crap-creep'.
In article <[email protected]>,
Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>Thought you guys might want to know of this deal.
>
>http://tiny.cc/alyja
Sweet. It's a low-end router, but it's got both the 1/4
and 1/2" collets. Description doesn't say anything about
variable speed or electronic control, which probably means
it doesn't have it, but still, it's a Porter Cable.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
"Bill" wrote:
> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
> pleased. So far, so good.
----------------------------------------
All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
complete.
Lew
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:28:49 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 19, 11:51Â am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> (See, Leon? People diss HF, too. Â Get over it.)
>
>People who buy HF tools support communism.
That's just low, bananaboy.
--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 11:28:49 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 19, 11:51 am, Larry Jaques<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>
>>> (See, Leon? People diss HF, too. Get over it.)
>>
>> People who buy HF tools support communism.
>
> That's just low, bananaboy.
I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
"virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The "equivalent" at
Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking about what could
possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is pleased. So far, so good.
Bill
>
> --
> "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
> against his government." --Edward Abbey
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>> pleased. So far, so good.
> ----------------------------------------
> All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
> complete.
>
> Lew
>
Yes, there were a couple of flamingos in our yard in the late 60's
(too)! The "virdigris" finish should complement our tan bricks--I
actually decided that was what the color I wanted before I even saw the
one in the HF advertisement. Here's a link to the item (in case you want
to get one):
http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/garden-birdbath-37722.html
I'm not sure if they are still $39.99.
I wouldn't consider my landscaping complete though--even with the
flamingos. So I'll save them for last! : ) After I tend to everything
else, I may build some trellisi. Coming around to year 2 in the house,
I am getting better at coming up with ideas.
Bill
"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Bill" wrote:
>>
>>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>>> pleased. So far, so good.
>> ----------------------------------------
>> All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>> complete.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>
> Yes, there were a couple of flamingos in our yard in the late 60's (too)!
> The "virdigris" finish should complement our tan bricks--I actually
> decided that was what the color I wanted before I even saw the one in the
> HF advertisement. Here's a link to the item (in case you want to get one):
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/garden-birdbath-37722.html
>
> I'm not sure if they are still $39.99.
>
How do you plan to Clean it?
Lobby Dosser wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "Bill" wrote:
>>>
>>>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>>>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>>>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>>>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>>>> pleased. So far, so good.
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>> All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>>> complete.
>>>
>>> Lew
>>>
>>
>> Yes, there were a couple of flamingos in our yard in the late 60's
>> (too)! The "virdigris" finish should complement our tan bricks--I
>> actually decided that was what the color I wanted before I even saw
>> the one in the HF advertisement. Here's a link to the item (in case
>> you want to get one):
>>
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/garden-birdbath-37722.html
>>
>> I'm not sure if they are still $39.99.
>>
>
>
> How do you plan to Clean it?
I'm not the family birdothologist, hopefully, the same person who fills
up the feeders will clean it! ; )
Leon wrote:
>
> "Edward A. Falk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Thought you guys might want to know of this deal.
>>>
>>>http://tiny.cc/alyja
>>
>> Sweet. It's a low-end router, but it's got both the 1/4
>> and 1/2" collets. Description doesn't say anything about
>> variable speed or electronic control, which probably means
>> it doesn't have it, but still, it's a Porter Cable.
>
>
> but still, it's a Porter Cable
>
> That used to mean something 10 years ago. Now you better do your
> homework. PC is not what it use'ta be as they are becoming more and more
> hobbiest grade.
Agree that PC quality has gone downhill. But I do believe they still make a
decent router. Have a few of the newer ones and have not had a problem yet
with any of them. The Cordless Drills and sanders are worthless. Like you
said do your homework and look at the reviews.
Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers to one
of the ones you push, Festool :)
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Man. 2010.1 Spring
KDE4.4
2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 08:17:21 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:49:25 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
>>>> experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, one doesn't need that first hand experience to complain
>>>about
>>>Festool prices. I admit to not liking them at all, but I don't complain
>>>about them because I do have first hand experience with several Festool
>>>products. And since my initial foray into Festool territory gave me what I
>>>wanted most which was dust collection, I've reconciled myself to those
>>>prices. Coupled with Festool's 30 day, no hassle, full refund if you're
>>>not
>>>completely satisifed with their products, there was really no risk for me
>>>to
>>>take that first step into Festool territory to see if the tool met my
>>>needs.
>>>
>>>There's a special type of satisfaction in buying and owning a tool that in
>>>most cases, you know it will do what it's supposed to do first time and
>>>everytime. Yeah, that satisfaction usually costs extra money. But for me
>>>anyway, I'd much prefer that to buying some tool really cheaply that I'm
>>>less confident about and always have the thought in the back of my minding
>>>wondering if or when it was going to fail.
>>
>> I've lived with crappy tools for many years but didn't want to replace
>> them
>> because they still "worked". When I finally did replace the original
>> Sears
>> crap the difference was amazing and I promised myself that I'd never buy a
>> cheap tool again (unless it was a one-job throw-away). If I couldn't
>> afford
>> the "best", I didn't buy anything. Now that I'm in a position where I can
>> buy
>> pretty much anything I want, I do. The Kapex (or a Laguna BS, for that
>> matter) is still beyond what I'm willing to pay.
>
>I would love to own a Kapex but I probably would not use it. I have a Delta
>CMS and absolutely quit using it, in the shop, when I bought a cabinet saw
>and found it to be superior,coupled with the Dubby jigs, compared to the
>miter saw.
I looked at the Kapex, for about a microsecond, before I bought a Bosch to
replace my HF. I'll likely still use the HF rebuilding a fence this spring. I
won't fear leaving it outside. ;-)
>I do have the LT16 HD Laguna however.... You just walk up to it, tension
>the blade, turn it on, and start cutting. It has been months since I
>switched blades so there has been no guide adjustments and it has probably
>been a couple of years since I have adjusted the top wheel tilt angle
>regardless of which blade is mounted. When you are ready to simply cut with
>the saw and quit tweeking the guides or top wheel the Laguna and or the
>MiniMax saws fill the bill. I avoided my old BS in the past simply because
>of the adjustements that were constantly needed, no longer. Oh and the 4.5
>hp monster hanging off the back side of the saw never strains. ;~) AND
>oddly the longer 150" blades are easier to deal with then folding up or
>opening than the short ones.
Would you STOP! <sheesh> ;-) I got into the Festool swamp listening to you
guys. I don't want to spend as much on a bandsaw as I did on the Unisaw. ;-)
I wouldn't go for a motor that big. I'd rather not wire that much juice into
the "shop". Not that it would be impossible (the "shop has no walls yet), but
20A, 240V is enough.
Leon wrote:
> Circuit breakers do not measure amperage so to speak, they measure
> temperature in the breaker.
-----------------------------------
Only partially true.
C'bkrs found in buildings are thermal-magnetic devices.
The magnetic portion of the c'bkr measures the inrush current and
responds instantaneously to a fault condition independent of
temperature.
If a c'bkr trips when a load such as a motor is first turned on, the
magnetic portion of the c'bkr is responding to the inrush conditions.
Mean while the thermal portion of the c'bkr responds to the long term
conditions of the circuit such as when an overload on a continuous
basis exists.
Circuit conditions maybe be such that it may take several minutes for
the thermal portion of the c'bkr to trip.
Overload current vs. thermal trip time is an inverse ratio.
This explains why you can temporarily overload a table saw during a
cut and not trip the c'bkr, if you do it quickly enough.
-----------------------------------
> If the amperage draw is too high it gets hot
> and trips. In the summer it is already warm and the added load
> trips the breaker more quickly. During the cooler months the
> breaker has to warm up more before it trips.
--------------------------------
The above correctly describes only the functioning of the thermal
portion of a c'bkr.
------------------------------------
> We are only talking
> momnets but it only takes moments for a motor to start up. Think of
> a circuit breaker as a reusable fuse.
---------------------------------
The above describes only the magnetic portion of a functioning c'bkr
in a round about way and should not be confused with the thermal
function of a thermal-magnetic c'bkr.
All of this discussion helps to explain why 15A c'bkrs protecting #14
AWG wiring are basically a total waste of time in today's buildings,
and especially in the shop.
The electrical demands of today are much higher than they were 50
years ago and 15A ckt's are simply inadequate in today's world.
.
Lew
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 3/24/11 1:46 PM, Leon wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 07:22:16 -0500, "Leon"<[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:17:45 -0500, "Leon"<[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:17:46 -0500, "Leon"<[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>>>> see the need.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that
>>>>>>>>>>>> replaced
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> breaker
>>>>>>>>>>>> in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> unusual
>>>>>>>>>>>> to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my
>>>>>>>>>>>> cabinet
>>>>>>>>>>>> saw
>>>>>>>>>>>> and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A
>>>>>>>>>>> breaker
>>>>>>>>>>> trips
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern
>>>>>>>>>> breakers.
>>>>>>>>>> Too
>>>>>>>>>> much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> breakers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll
>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> lookout for it in the future, though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately I have experienced it with my new house and the
>>>>>>>> replacement
>>>>>>>> breaker. On a 20 amp dedicated circuit with a small freezer, and a
>>>>>>>> compressor. One a week when both would come on at the same time
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> breaker
>>>>>>>> would trip. Continued with the replacement. The solution was to
>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> another circuit. Connections at breaker box and recepticle are
>>>>>>>> tight.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> electrician hinted at the solution and the problem... ;~(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why do you say that that was a problem with the breaker? Sounds
>>>>>>> normal
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compressor max load, 15 amp, Freezer max load according to repair
>>>>>> technition
>>>>>> 2 amp. Well under the 20 amp rating.
>>>>>
>>>>> The startup current exceeds the running current for these sorts of
>>>>> devices
>>>>> by
>>>>> several times.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Compressor does fine on a 15 amp circuit. I suspect that the freezer
>>>>>> pulls
>>>>>> much more than 2 amps and according to the electrician I really
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> a breaker problem according to industry standards. He listed a host
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> brands of breakers and their designed trip points. Most all
>>>>>> according
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> him trip at 80% load. He indicated that they ain't like they ust'a
>>>>>> be.
>>>>>> A
>>>>>> couple on his list would trip at the designated amp rating however
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> terribly expensive and or no longer in business.
>>>>>
>>>>> The compressor may draw 50A when it starts.
>>>>
>>>> Understand that start up is greater than running speed however it
>>>> seldom
>>>> tripped a 15 amp breaker in my old home when it came on and a 15 amp
>>>> router, dust collector, and radio were all already running on the same
>>>> circuit. Come summer time that was another story.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You said:
>>> "One a week when both would come on at the same time the breaker
>>> would trip."
>>
>>
>> At the new house with the new breakers. Previous comment was about older
>> house.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The one starting while the other was running (or worse, both starting
>>> simultaneously) was enough to trip the breaker. Both running is not. I
>>> would
>>> expect this sort of behavior. The breaker in your old house may not
>>> have
>>> been
>>> working at all.
>>
>> Typically I would have the router, dust collector, and radio running.
>> Then
>> the compressor would cycle and trip the breaker only in the summer
>> months,
>> but never did in the fall through spring months.
>>
>
> I'm no electrical engineer and I'm just thinking out loud.....
> Summer months are high load months for the electric company, so maybe
> there is a slight voltage drop during those times.... ie: from 125+ down
> to 115- ????
Circuit breakers do not measure amperage so to speak, they measure
temperature in the breaker. If the amperage draw is too high it gets hot
and trips. In the summer it is already warm and the added load trips the
breaker more quickly. During the cooler months the breaker has to warm up
more before it trips. We are only talking momnets but it only takes moments
for a motor to start up. Think of a circuit breaker as a reusable fuse.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>
>> I'm no electrical engineer and I'm just thinking out loud.....
>> Summer months are high load months for the electric company, so maybe
>> there is a slight voltage drop during those times.... ie: from 125+ down
>> to 115- ????
>
>
> Circuit breakers do not measure amperage so to speak, they measure
> temperature in the breaker. If the amperage draw is too high it gets hot
> and trips. In the summer it is already warm and the added load trips the
> breaker more quickly. During the cooler months the breaker has to warm up
> more before it trips. We are only talking momnets but it only takes
> moments for a motor to start up. Think of a circuit breaker as a reusable
> fuse.
>
Better?
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 07:22:16 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:17:45 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:17:46 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>> see the need.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a
>>>>>>>>>breaker
>>>>>>>>>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not
>>>>>>>>>unusual
>>>>>>>>>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my
>>>>>>>>>cabinet
>>>>>>>>>saw
>>>>>>>>>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you
>>>>>>>>>might
>>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but
>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker
>>>>>>>> trips
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern
>>>>>>>breakers.
>>>>>>>Too
>>>>>>>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>breakers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll keep
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> lookout for it in the future, though.
>>>>>
>>>>>Unfortunately I have experienced it with my new house and the
>>>>>replacement
>>>>>breaker. On a 20 amp dedicated circuit with a small freezer, and a
>>>>>compressor. One a week when both would come on at the same time the
>>>>>breaker
>>>>>would trip. Continued with the replacement. The solution was to put
>>>>>one
>>>>>on
>>>>>another circuit. Connections at breaker box and recepticle are tight.
>>>>>The
>>>>>electrician hinted at the solution and the problem... ;~(
>>>>
>>>> Why do you say that that was a problem with the breaker? Sounds normal
>>>> to
>>>> me.
>>>
>>>Compressor max load, 15 amp, Freezer max load according to repair
>>>technition
>>>2 amp. Well under the 20 amp rating.
>>
>> The startup current exceeds the running current for these sorts of devices
>> by
>> several times.
>>
>>>Compressor does fine on a 15 amp circuit. I suspect that the freezer
>>>pulls
>>>much more than 2 amps and according to the electrician I really don't
>>>have
>>>a breaker problem according to industry standards. He listed a host of
>>>brands of breakers and their designed trip points. Most all according to
>>>him trip at 80% load. He indicated that they ain't like they ust'a be. A
>>>couple on his list would trip at the designated amp rating however they
>>>are
>>>terribly expensive and or no longer in business.
>>
>> The compressor may draw 50A when it starts.
>
>Understand that start up is greater than running speed however it seldom
>tripped a 15 amp breaker in my old home when it came on and a 15 amp
>router, dust collector, and radio were all already running on the same
>circuit. Come summer time that was another story.
>
You said:
"One a week when both would come on at the same time the breaker
would trip."
The one starting while the other was running (or worse, both starting
simultaneously) was enough to trip the breaker. Both running is not. I would
expect this sort of behavior. The breaker in your old house may not have been
working at all.
On 3/24/11 1:46 PM, Leon wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 07:22:16 -0500, "Leon"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:17:45 -0500, "Leon"<[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:17:46 -0500, "Leon"<[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>>> see the need.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> breaker
>>>>>>>>>>> in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> unusual
>>>>>>>>>>> to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my
>>>>>>>>>>> cabinet
>>>>>>>>>>> saw
>>>>>>>>>>> and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but
>>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A
>>>>>>>>>> breaker
>>>>>>>>>> trips
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern
>>>>>>>>> breakers.
>>>>>>>>> Too
>>>>>>>>> much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> breakers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll
>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> lookout for it in the future, though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unfortunately I have experienced it with my new house and the
>>>>>>> replacement
>>>>>>> breaker. On a 20 amp dedicated circuit with a small freezer, and a
>>>>>>> compressor. One a week when both would come on at the same time the
>>>>>>> breaker
>>>>>>> would trip. Continued with the replacement. The solution was to put
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> another circuit. Connections at breaker box and recepticle are tight.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> electrician hinted at the solution and the problem... ;~(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do you say that that was a problem with the breaker? Sounds
>>>>>> normal
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compressor max load, 15 amp, Freezer max load according to repair
>>>>> technition
>>>>> 2 amp. Well under the 20 amp rating.
>>>>
>>>> The startup current exceeds the running current for these sorts of
>>>> devices
>>>> by
>>>> several times.
>>>>
>>>>> Compressor does fine on a 15 amp circuit. I suspect that the freezer
>>>>> pulls
>>>>> much more than 2 amps and according to the electrician I really don't
>>>>> have
>>>>> a breaker problem according to industry standards. He listed a host of
>>>>> brands of breakers and their designed trip points. Most all according
>>>>> to
>>>>> him trip at 80% load. He indicated that they ain't like they ust'a be.
>>>>> A
>>>>> couple on his list would trip at the designated amp rating however they
>>>>> are
>>>>> terribly expensive and or no longer in business.
>>>>
>>>> The compressor may draw 50A when it starts.
>>>
>>> Understand that start up is greater than running speed however it seldom
>>> tripped a 15 amp breaker in my old home when it came on and a 15 amp
>>> router, dust collector, and radio were all already running on the same
>>> circuit. Come summer time that was another story.
>>>
>>
>> You said:
>> "One a week when both would come on at the same time the breaker
>> would trip."
>
>
> At the new house with the new breakers. Previous comment was about older
> house.
>
>
>>
>> The one starting while the other was running (or worse, both starting
>> simultaneously) was enough to trip the breaker. Both running is not. I
>> would
>> expect this sort of behavior. The breaker in your old house may not have
>> been
>> working at all.
>
> Typically I would have the router, dust collector, and radio running. Then
> the compressor would cycle and trip the breaker only in the summer months,
> but never did in the fall through spring months.
>
I'm no electrical engineer and I'm just thinking out loud.....
Summer months are high load months for the electric company, so maybe
there is a slight voltage drop during those times.... ie: from 125+ down
to 115- ????
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 07:22:16 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 02:17:45 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:17:46 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>> see the need.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced
>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>breaker
>>>>>>>>>>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is
>>>>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>>>>unusual
>>>>>>>>>>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my
>>>>>>>>>>cabinet
>>>>>>>>>>saw
>>>>>>>>>>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you
>>>>>>>>>>might
>>>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but
>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A
>>>>>>>>> breaker
>>>>>>>>> trips
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> less than 20A, it's defective.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern
>>>>>>>>breakers.
>>>>>>>>Too
>>>>>>>>much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>breakers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've never heard that problem before (rather the opposite). I'll
>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> lookout for it in the future, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Unfortunately I have experienced it with my new house and the
>>>>>>replacement
>>>>>>breaker. On a 20 amp dedicated circuit with a small freezer, and a
>>>>>>compressor. One a week when both would come on at the same time the
>>>>>>breaker
>>>>>>would trip. Continued with the replacement. The solution was to put
>>>>>>one
>>>>>>on
>>>>>>another circuit. Connections at breaker box and recepticle are tight.
>>>>>>The
>>>>>>electrician hinted at the solution and the problem... ;~(
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you say that that was a problem with the breaker? Sounds
>>>>> normal
>>>>> to
>>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>>Compressor max load, 15 amp, Freezer max load according to repair
>>>>technition
>>>>2 amp. Well under the 20 amp rating.
>>>
>>> The startup current exceeds the running current for these sorts of
>>> devices
>>> by
>>> several times.
>>>
>>>>Compressor does fine on a 15 amp circuit. I suspect that the freezer
>>>>pulls
>>>>much more than 2 amps and according to the electrician I really don't
>>>>have
>>>>a breaker problem according to industry standards. He listed a host of
>>>>brands of breakers and their designed trip points. Most all according
>>>>to
>>>>him trip at 80% load. He indicated that they ain't like they ust'a be.
>>>>A
>>>>couple on his list would trip at the designated amp rating however they
>>>>are
>>>>terribly expensive and or no longer in business.
>>>
>>> The compressor may draw 50A when it starts.
>>
>>Understand that start up is greater than running speed however it seldom
>>tripped a 15 amp breaker in my old home when it came on and a 15 amp
>>router, dust collector, and radio were all already running on the same
>>circuit. Come summer time that was another story.
>>
>
> You said:
> "One a week when both would come on at the same time the breaker
> would trip."
At the new house with the new breakers. Previous comment was about older
house.
>
> The one starting while the other was running (or worse, both starting
> simultaneously) was enough to trip the breaker. Both running is not. I
> would
> expect this sort of behavior. The breaker in your old house may not have
> been
> working at all.
Typically I would have the router, dust collector, and radio running. Then
the compressor would cycle and trip the breaker only in the summer months,
but never did in the fall through spring months.
On 3/20/11 2:19 PM, Leon wrote:
> Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a breaker
> in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not unusual
> to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my cabinet saw
> and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you might be
> borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>
Leon, are you buying those cheap HF breakers again? :-)
--
Froz...
The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 08:17:21 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:49:25 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
>>>>> experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
>>>>
>>>>Unfortunately, one doesn't need that first hand experience to complain
>>>>about
>>>>Festool prices. I admit to not liking them at all, but I don't complain
>>>>about them because I do have first hand experience with several Festool
>>>>products. And since my initial foray into Festool territory gave me what
>>>>I
>>>>wanted most which was dust collection, I've reconciled myself to those
>>>>prices. Coupled with Festool's 30 day, no hassle, full refund if you're
>>>>not
>>>>completely satisifed with their products, there was really no risk for
>>>>me
>>>>to
>>>>take that first step into Festool territory to see if the tool met my
>>>>needs.
>>>>
>>>>There's a special type of satisfaction in buying and owning a tool that
>>>>in
>>>>most cases, you know it will do what it's supposed to do first time and
>>>>everytime. Yeah, that satisfaction usually costs extra money. But for me
>>>>anyway, I'd much prefer that to buying some tool really cheaply that I'm
>>>>less confident about and always have the thought in the back of my
>>>>minding
>>>>wondering if or when it was going to fail.
>>>
>>> I've lived with crappy tools for many years but didn't want to replace
>>> them
>>> because they still "worked". When I finally did replace the original
>>> Sears
>>> crap the difference was amazing and I promised myself that I'd never buy
>>> a
>>> cheap tool again (unless it was a one-job throw-away). If I couldn't
>>> afford
>>> the "best", I didn't buy anything. Now that I'm in a position where I
>>> can
>>> buy
>>> pretty much anything I want, I do. The Kapex (or a Laguna BS, for that
>>> matter) is still beyond what I'm willing to pay.
>>
>>I would love to own a Kapex but I probably would not use it. I have a
>>Delta
>>CMS and absolutely quit using it, in the shop, when I bought a cabinet saw
>>and found it to be superior,coupled with the Dubby jigs, compared to the
>>miter saw.
>
> I looked at the Kapex, for about a microsecond, before I bought a Bosch to
> replace my HF. I'll likely still use the HF rebuilding a fence this
> spring. I
> won't fear leaving it outside. ;-)
Is it the new style Bosch with the articulating arm?
>>I do have the LT16 HD Laguna however.... You just walk up to it, tension
>>the blade, turn it on, and start cutting. It has been months since I
>>switched blades so there has been no guide adjustments and it has probably
>>been a couple of years since I have adjusted the top wheel tilt angle
>>regardless of which blade is mounted. When you are ready to simply cut
>>with
>>the saw and quit tweeking the guides or top wheel the Laguna and or the
>>MiniMax saws fill the bill. I avoided my old BS in the past simply
>>because
>>of the adjustements that were constantly needed, no longer. Oh and the
>>4.5
>>hp monster hanging off the back side of the saw never strains. ;~) AND
>>oddly the longer 150" blades are easier to deal with then folding up or
>>opening than the short ones.
>
> Would you STOP! <sheesh> ;-) I got into the Festool swamp listening to
> you
> guys. I don't want to spend as much on a bandsaw as I did on the Unisaw.
> ;-)
LOL, well when you want to work "with" the saw instead of "on" the saw.....
;~)
>
> I wouldn't go for a motor that big. I'd rather not wire that much juice
> into
> the "shop". Not that it would be impossible (the "shop has no walls yet),
> but
> 20A, 240V is enough.
Actually it will run on 20 amp 240 and that is the smallest IIRC motor
available on the HD series saws. The Baldor motor requires 19 amp in 240
volt mode and 38 amp in 120 volt mode. My garage has a single 30 amp 240
volt receptacle.
Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a breaker
in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not unusual
to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my cabinet saw
and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you might be
borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
Robatoy wrote:
> On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers to
>> one of the ones you push, Festool :)
>>
>
> I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
> that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
> In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
> few.
> Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
> and I'm not talking chocolates either.
> No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
> taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
> Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
> routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
> Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
> of the performance for half the money.
>
> Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
> some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
Thats why there is a smiley face behind it. Ok maybe "push" was the wrong
word. Leon is always talkin Festool and Leon mentioned that PC was not what
they use to be, which is true. I just made a comment about the difference in
value to cost. Hell, I don't even know if Festool makes a router. Why is it
that there is always someone that has to make a big deal about something
that doesn't deserve it. Geeeeeeeeeeeez
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Man. 2010.1 Spring
KDE4.4
2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb
Robatoy wrote:
> On Mar 18, 2:10 pm, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:
>> > On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers
>> >> to one of the ones you push, Festool :)
>>
>> > I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
>> > that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
>> > In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
>> > few.
>> > Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
>> > and I'm not talking chocolates either.
>> > No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
>> > taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
>> > Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
>> > routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
>> > Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
>> > of the performance for half the money.
>>
>> > Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
>> > some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
>>
>> Thats why there is a smiley face behind it. Ok maybe "push" was the wrong
>> word. Leon is always talkin Festool and Leon mentioned that PC was not
>> what they use to be, which is true. I just made a comment about the
>> difference in value to cost. Hell, I don't even know if Festool makes a
>> router. Why is it that there is always someone that has to make a big
>> deal about something that doesn't deserve it. Geeeeeeeeeeeez
>
> Keep your shirt on, bro'. I didn't notice the smiley...my bad.... It
> was neither a big deal, nor did I make it one.... just a gentle
> ribbing. I was just trying to help you out by pointing out the error
> of your ways before Swingman got a hold of you......>>>SMILY!!<<<
>
> Myself... I am ordering a CEROS MIRKA because I am just too damned
> awesome to be using that agricultural Festool brand. :o}
Ok I admit I wrote the response with my shirt off and in my boxers. Thanks
again for the heads up on Swingman, but I'm a big boy. Thinking I can handle
him. >>>>SMILY!!!<<<<<<
Nice sander!
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
http://rentmyhusband.biz/
In article <[email protected]>,
Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>Leon wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> but still, it's a Porter Cable
>>
>> That used to mean something 10 years ago. Now you better do your
>> homework. PC is not what it use'ta be as they are becoming more and more
>> hobbiest grade.
:( :(
>Agree that PC quality has gone downhill. But I do believe they still make a
>decent router.
Actually, I have one about four years old with the electronic speed
control and it seems solid and reliable to me.
--
-Ed Falk, [email protected]
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b1a1c508-f324-4806-a6de-054a698790d0@p16g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 19, 12:56 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers
> >>> to
> >>> one
> >>> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>
> >>I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
> >>that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
> >>In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
> >>few.
> >>Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
> >>and I'm not talking chocolates either.
> >>No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
> >>taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
> >>Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
> >>routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
> >>Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
> >>of the performance for half the money.
>
> > Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
> > the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
> > gripe at 'em about.
>
> I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
> purchase, you would have a gripe. I cannot afford a Bently but don't
> gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range you
> believe Festool to be in.
The profit margins C-less thinks are so high are in reality nowhere
near that range.
Festool annual sales currently run about 200 million. They have to
compete with the big dogs and insane margins simply won't let them
compete. I would be surprised if they made 10% on their gross
turnover.
I am also willing to bet that the margins are way higher for HF shit.
Their router, for instance, maybe costs them 15 bucks to make because
they spend bugger-all on R&D (They steal all ideas), use inferior
materials and pay their workers dick-all in wages. Those commie
bastards are ripping you off, C-less! $ 59.00 for that router? Guess
who's screwing who here?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I only paid $29 or so. So complete a rip-off of a Makita, it had to be made
in the same factory. Yes, it has an inferior motor and a fair amount of
fettling was needed but my time fettling wasn't worth the difference in
price with the real thing. Plus it works better than my off the shelf DeWalt
and I can buy Makita parts, if needed.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:d84c156f-83f9-416a-9f71-2e4c9fe3070b@f31g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 19, 11:51 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:57:40 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Mar 19, 12:56 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>news:[email protected]...
>
> >> > On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >>On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these
> >> >>> routers to
> >> >>> one
> >> >>> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>
> >> >>I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most
> >> >>agree
> >> >>that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
> >> >>In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just
> >> >>a
> >> >>few.
> >> >>Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
> >> >>and I'm not talking chocolates either.
> >> >>No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at
> >> >>everything,
> >> >>taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
> >> >>Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
> >> >>routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
> >> >>Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
> >> >>of the performance for half the money.
>
> >> > Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed
> >> > up
> >> > the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything
> >> > to
> >> > gripe at 'em about.
>
> >> I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
> >> purchase, you would have a gripe. I cannot afford a Bently but don't
> >> gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range
> >> you
> >> believe Festool to be in.
>
> >The profit margins C-less thinks are so high are in reality nowhere
> >near that range.
> >Festool annual sales currently run about 200 million. They have to
> >compete with the big dogs and insane margins simply won't let them
> >compete. I would be surprised if they made 10% on their gross
> >turnover.
> >I am also willing to bet that the margins are way higher for HF shit.
> >Their router, for instance, maybe costs them 15 bucks to make because
> >they spend bugger-all on R&D (They steal all ideas), use inferior
> >materials and pay their workers dick-all in wages. Those commie
>
> Do you realize that the Red Dragon Noodle and Machine Tool Factory is
> also paying its laborers at much higher rates than other industries?
> Workers in those factories are VERY happy to be working there.
> Googlit.
>
> >bastards are ripping you off, C-less! $ 59.00 for that router? Guess
> >who's screwing who here?
>
> I think mine cost $32 or thereabouts.
>
> (See, Leon? People diss HF, too. Get over it.)
>
> --
> "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
> against his government." --Edward Abbey
People who buy HF tools support communism.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not now, nor for the past couple decades. Don't you get news in Canada?
Only real Commie Bastids left are North Ko-rea and Cuber.
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 23:56:39 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers to
>>>> one
>>>> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>>>>
>>>
>>>I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
>>>that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
>>>In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
>>>few.
>>>Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
>>>and I'm not talking chocolates either.
>>>No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
>>>taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
>>>Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
>>>routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
>>>Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
>>>of the performance for half the money.
>>
>> Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
>> the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
>> gripe at 'em about.
>
>I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
>purchase, you would have a gripe. I cannot afford a Bently but don't
> gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range you
>believe Festool to be in.
How many people are pushing (or even mentioning) Bentleys around here
on almost a daily basis, hmmm? If they were, some gripes might come
out in the wash. <shrug>
Do I complain when people diss my HF line? <titter>
--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> From what you converts say, they probably perform much better with
> power. I wish I knew someone local who would let me play with their
> agro-colored toys sometime.
Don't know where you're located, but there's a number of hands on classes
for Festool in the US. As well, I've heard of several dealers that let
customers try out a few tools. Maybe you should call around. And finally,
Festool does have a 30 return policy.
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:08:53 -0700, Larry Jaques
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 14:06:57 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
>>>>purchase, you would have a gripe. I cannot afford a Bently but don't
>>>> gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range
>>>> you
>>>>believe Festool to be in.
>>>
>>> How many people are pushing (or even mentioning) Bentleys around here
>>> on almost a daily basis, hmmm? If they were, some gripes might come
>>> out in the wash. <shrug>
>>
>>How many here are actually pushing Festool other than reporting first hand
>>knowledge about the product and the value of the product. I seriousely
>>doubt any one here that uses Festool benefits a whole lot from a Festool
>>sale.
>
>Aw, c'mon, Leon. You three -gush- over Festools, every time.
>
>
>>> Do I complain when people diss my HF line? <titter>
>>
>>I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that just because you don't see
>>the value, it does not mean that value does not exist. No need to
>>cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
>>experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
>
>I am familiar with the products. They just didn't let the vendors plug
>anything in outside the store that day, so I can't judge performance.
>
>I'm good at judging the quality (or lack thereof) of tools from their
>feel and action, even unplugged, so I was disappointed when I didn't
>feel the silky smoothness of Festool when I did pick them up and run
>them through their ranges of motion and such. I couldn't tell any
>difference from their Bosch, DeWalt, Ridgid, or Makita counterparts,
>and that really surprised me. THAT is why I say "Festering" when I
>see their prices.
>
>From what you converts say, they probably perform much better with
>power. I wish I knew someone local who would let me play with their
>agro-colored toys sometime.
One thing that surprised me about their track-saw (TS-55) is the lack of
power. It's great for panels but forget it as a circular saw. I think my 18V
DeWalt has more power.
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 02:57:40 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 19, 12:56 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> > On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>On Mar 18, 11:38 am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these
>>> >>> routers to
>>> >>> one
>>> >>> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>>>
>>> >>I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
>>> >>that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
>>> >>In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
>>> >>few.
>>> >>Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
>>> >>and I'm not talking chocolates either.
>>> >>No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
>>> >>taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
>>> >>Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
>>> >>routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
>>> >>Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
>>> >>of the performance for half the money.
>>>
>>> > Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
>>> > the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
>>> > gripe at 'em about.
>>>
>>> I guess if you were actually buying Festool and not pleased with your
>>> purchase, you would have a gripe. I cannot afford a Bently but don't
>>> gripe about that, and I would suppose their profit margin is the range
>>> you
>>> believe Festool to be in.
>>
>>The profit margins C-less thinks are so high are in reality nowhere
>>near that range.
>>Festool annual sales currently run about 200 million. They have to
>>compete with the big dogs and insane margins simply won't let them
>>compete. I would be surprised if they made 10% on their gross
>>turnover.
>>I am also willing to bet that the margins are way higher for HF shit.
>>Their router, for instance, maybe costs them 15 bucks to make because
>>they spend bugger-all on R&D (They steal all ideas), use inferior
>>materials and pay their workers dick-all in wages. Those commie
>
> Do you realize that the Red Dragon Noodle and Machine Tool Factory is
> also paying its laborers at much higher rates than other industries?
> Workers in those factories are VERY happy to be working there.
> Googlit.
>
>>bastards are ripping you off, C-less! $ 59.00 for that router? Guess
>>who's screwing who here?
>
> I think mine cost $32 or thereabouts.
>
> (See, Leon? People diss HF, too. Get over it.)
Get over what Larry, I am not the one complaining? I'm perfectly happy with
my Festool tools and that brake adjusting tool I got from HF.
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 18, 11:38Â am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers to one
>> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>>
>
>I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
>that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
>In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
>few.
>Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
>and I'm not talking chocolates either.
>No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
>taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
>Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
>routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
>Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with 95%
>of the performance for half the money.
Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
gripe at 'em about.
>Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
>some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
The number of unworthies comes up to at least 80% of all violinists,
doesn't it, Toy? Then again, a really nice tool can make a hack a bit
better, so what's the harm? Now, -which- are the really nice tools?
--
A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on.
-- William S. Burroughs
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:22:15 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "Bill" wrote:
>>>
>>>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>>>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>>>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>>>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>>>> pleased. So far, so good.
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>> All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>>> complete.
>>>
>>> Lew
>>>
>>
>> Yes, there were a couple of flamingos in our yard in the late 60's (too)!
>> The "virdigris" finish should complement our tan bricks--I actually
>> decided that was what the color I wanted before I even saw the one in the
>> HF advertisement. Here's a link to the item (in case you want to get one):
>>
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/garden-birdbath-37722.html
>>
>> I'm not sure if they are still $39.99.
>
>How do you plan to Clean it?
A bristle brush and water from a garden hose? Birdchit's easy, mon.
--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:19:16 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 08:17:21 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:49:25 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
>>>>>> experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
>>>>>
>>>>>Unfortunately, one doesn't need that first hand experience to complain
>>>>>about
>>>>>Festool prices. I admit to not liking them at all, but I don't complain
>>>>>about them because I do have first hand experience with several Festool
>>>>>products. And since my initial foray into Festool territory gave me what
>>>>>I
>>>>>wanted most which was dust collection, I've reconciled myself to those
>>>>>prices. Coupled with Festool's 30 day, no hassle, full refund if you're
>>>>>not
>>>>>completely satisifed with their products, there was really no risk for
>>>>>me
>>>>>to
>>>>>take that first step into Festool territory to see if the tool met my
>>>>>needs.
>>>>>
>>>>>There's a special type of satisfaction in buying and owning a tool that
>>>>>in
>>>>>most cases, you know it will do what it's supposed to do first time and
>>>>>everytime. Yeah, that satisfaction usually costs extra money. But for me
>>>>>anyway, I'd much prefer that to buying some tool really cheaply that I'm
>>>>>less confident about and always have the thought in the back of my
>>>>>minding
>>>>>wondering if or when it was going to fail.
>>>>
>>>> I've lived with crappy tools for many years but didn't want to replace
>>>> them
>>>> because they still "worked". When I finally did replace the original
>>>> Sears
>>>> crap the difference was amazing and I promised myself that I'd never buy
>>>> a
>>>> cheap tool again (unless it was a one-job throw-away). If I couldn't
>>>> afford
>>>> the "best", I didn't buy anything. Now that I'm in a position where I
>>>> can
>>>> buy
>>>> pretty much anything I want, I do. The Kapex (or a Laguna BS, for that
>>>> matter) is still beyond what I'm willing to pay.
>>>
>>>I would love to own a Kapex but I probably would not use it. I have a
>>>Delta
>>>CMS and absolutely quit using it, in the shop, when I bought a cabinet saw
>>>and found it to be superior,coupled with the Dubby jigs, compared to the
>>>miter saw.
>>
>> I looked at the Kapex, for about a microsecond, before I bought a Bosch to
>> replace my HF. I'll likely still use the HF rebuilding a fence this
>> spring. I
>> won't fear leaving it outside. ;-)
>
>Is it the new style Bosch with the articulating arm?
No, the old style.
>
>
>>>I do have the LT16 HD Laguna however.... You just walk up to it, tension
>>>the blade, turn it on, and start cutting. It has been months since I
>>>switched blades so there has been no guide adjustments and it has probably
>>>been a couple of years since I have adjusted the top wheel tilt angle
>>>regardless of which blade is mounted. When you are ready to simply cut
>>>with
>>>the saw and quit tweeking the guides or top wheel the Laguna and or the
>>>MiniMax saws fill the bill. I avoided my old BS in the past simply
>>>because
>>>of the adjustements that were constantly needed, no longer. Oh and the
>>>4.5
>>>hp monster hanging off the back side of the saw never strains. ;~) AND
>>>oddly the longer 150" blades are easier to deal with then folding up or
>>>opening than the short ones.
>>
>> Would you STOP! <sheesh> ;-) I got into the Festool swamp listening to
>> you
>> guys. I don't want to spend as much on a bandsaw as I did on the Unisaw.
>> ;-)
>
>LOL, well when you want to work "with" the saw instead of "on" the saw.....
>;~)
<mutter>
>> I wouldn't go for a motor that big. I'd rather not wire that much juice
>> into
>> the "shop". Not that it would be impossible (the "shop has no walls yet),
>> but
>> 20A, 240V is enough.
>
>Actually it will run on 20 amp 240 and that is the smallest IIRC motor
>available on the HD series saws. The Baldor motor requires 19 amp in 240
>volt mode and 38 amp in 120 volt mode. My garage has a single 30 amp 240
>volt receptacle.
I might do that, but I really don't want to. I guess it's that I really don't
see the need.
>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a breaker
>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not unusual
>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my cabinet saw
>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you might be
>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've not
heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker trips with
less than 20A, it's defective.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:19:16 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 08:17:21 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:49:25 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first
>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>> experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Unfortunately, one doesn't need that first hand experience to complain
>>>>>>about
>>>>>>Festool prices. I admit to not liking them at all, but I don't
>>>>>>complain
>>>>>>about them because I do have first hand experience with several
>>>>>>Festool
>>>>>>products. And since my initial foray into Festool territory gave me
>>>>>>what
>>>>>>I
>>>>>>wanted most which was dust collection, I've reconciled myself to those
>>>>>>prices. Coupled with Festool's 30 day, no hassle, full refund if
>>>>>>you're
>>>>>>not
>>>>>>completely satisifed with their products, there was really no risk for
>>>>>>me
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>take that first step into Festool territory to see if the tool met my
>>>>>>needs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There's a special type of satisfaction in buying and owning a tool
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>most cases, you know it will do what it's supposed to do first time
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>everytime. Yeah, that satisfaction usually costs extra money. But for
>>>>>>me
>>>>>>anyway, I'd much prefer that to buying some tool really cheaply that
>>>>>>I'm
>>>>>>less confident about and always have the thought in the back of my
>>>>>>minding
>>>>>>wondering if or when it was going to fail.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've lived with crappy tools for many years but didn't want to replace
>>>>> them
>>>>> because they still "worked". When I finally did replace the original
>>>>> Sears
>>>>> crap the difference was amazing and I promised myself that I'd never
>>>>> buy
>>>>> a
>>>>> cheap tool again (unless it was a one-job throw-away). If I couldn't
>>>>> afford
>>>>> the "best", I didn't buy anything. Now that I'm in a position where I
>>>>> can
>>>>> buy
>>>>> pretty much anything I want, I do. The Kapex (or a Laguna BS, for
>>>>> that
>>>>> matter) is still beyond what I'm willing to pay.
>>>>
>>>>I would love to own a Kapex but I probably would not use it. I have a
>>>>Delta
>>>>CMS and absolutely quit using it, in the shop, when I bought a cabinet
>>>>saw
>>>>and found it to be superior,coupled with the Dubby jigs, compared to the
>>>>miter saw.
>>>
>>> I looked at the Kapex, for about a microsecond, before I bought a Bosch
>>> to
>>> replace my HF. I'll likely still use the HF rebuilding a fence this
>>> spring. I
>>> won't fear leaving it outside. ;-)
>>
>>Is it the new style Bosch with the articulating arm?
>
> No, the old style.
>
>>
>>
>>>>I do have the LT16 HD Laguna however.... You just walk up to it,
>>>>tension
>>>>the blade, turn it on, and start cutting. It has been months since I
>>>>switched blades so there has been no guide adjustments and it has
>>>>probably
>>>>been a couple of years since I have adjusted the top wheel tilt angle
>>>>regardless of which blade is mounted. When you are ready to simply cut
>>>>with
>>>>the saw and quit tweeking the guides or top wheel the Laguna and or the
>>>>MiniMax saws fill the bill. I avoided my old BS in the past simply
>>>>because
>>>>of the adjustements that were constantly needed, no longer. Oh and the
>>>>4.5
>>>>hp monster hanging off the back side of the saw never strains. ;~) AND
>>>>oddly the longer 150" blades are easier to deal with then folding up or
>>>>opening than the short ones.
>>>
>>> Would you STOP! <sheesh> ;-) I got into the Festool swamp listening to
>>> you
>>> guys. I don't want to spend as much on a bandsaw as I did on the Unisaw.
>>> ;-)
>>
>>LOL, well when you want to work "with" the saw instead of "on" the
>>saw.....
>>;~)
>
> <mutter>
>
>>> I wouldn't go for a motor that big. I'd rather not wire that much juice
>>> into
>>> the "shop". Not that it would be impossible (the "shop has no walls
>>> yet),
>>> but
>>> 20A, 240V is enough.
>>
>>Actually it will run on 20 amp 240 and that is the smallest IIRC motor
>>available on the HD series saws. The Baldor motor requires 19 amp in 240
>>volt mode and 38 amp in 120 volt mode. My garage has a single 30 amp 240
>>volt receptacle.
>
> I might do that, but I really don't want to. I guess it's that I really
> don't
> see the need.
>
>>Keep in mind also that, according to the electrician that replaced a
>>breaker
>>in my new house, modern breakers tend to be overrated and it is not
>>unusual
>>to see one trip at 80% capacity. The typical 240 volt tool, my cabinet
>>saw
>>and stationary planer require 16 amps. With a 20 amp service you might be
>>borderline. Cheaper to go a little extra now than later.
>
> They often won't trip until they're loaded way over capacity, but I've not
> heard of them tripping under their rated current. If a 20A breaker trips
> with
> less than 20A, it's defective.
From what I understand it is pretty common with todays modern breakers. Too
much safety built in with GFI and Ark Fault interrupters built in to the
breakers.
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:22:15 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> "Bill" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>>>>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>>>>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>>>>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>>>>> pleased. So far, so good.
>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>>>> complete.
>>>>
>>>> Lew
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, there were a couple of flamingos in our yard in the late 60's
>>> (too)!
>>> The "virdigris" finish should complement our tan bricks--I actually
>>> decided that was what the color I wanted before I even saw the one in
>>> the
>>> HF advertisement. Here's a link to the item (in case you want to get
>>> one):
>>>
>>> http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/garden-birdbath-37722.html
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if they are still $39.99.
>>
>>How do you plan to Clean it?
>
> A bristle brush and water from a garden hose? Birdchit's easy, mon.
>
Got the statuary in the middle just waiting to bark a knuckle ...
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 00:26:16 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "Bill" wrote:
>>>
>>>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>>>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>>>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>>>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>>>> pleased. So far, so good.
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>> All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>>> complete.
>>>
>>> Lew
>>>
>>
>>Yes, there were a couple of flamingos in our yard in the late 60's
>>(too)! The "virdigris" finish should complement our tan bricks--I
>>actually decided that was what the color I wanted before I even saw the
>>one in the HF advertisement. Here's a link to the item (in case you want
>>to get one):
>>
>>http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/garden-birdbath-37722.html
>>
>>I'm not sure if they are still $39.99.
>>
>>I wouldn't consider my landscaping complete though--even with the
>>flamingos. So I'll save them for last! : ) After I tend to everything
>>else, I may build some trellisi. Coming around to year 2 in the house,
>>I am getting better at coming up with ideas.
>
> You'll certainly want some of these, too, Bill. Tres chic!
> http://www.fourcorners.com/product_details_Solar_Meerkats_Set_of_4.aspx
Jeez, those would get the neighborhood's attention quicker than parking a
car on the front lawn!
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 00:26:16 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Bill" wrote:
>>
>>> I bought the bird bath HF had on sale this week (aluminum with a
>>> "virdigris" finish and a cast iron base, 22 pounds). The
>>> "equivalent" at Sears/Kmart was plastic. I amused myself by thinking
>>> about what could possibly go wrong with the purchase. Wife is
>>> pleased. So far, so good.
>> ----------------------------------------
>> All you need now are some pink flamingos and your landscaping will be
>> complete.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>
>Yes, there were a couple of flamingos in our yard in the late 60's
>(too)! The "virdigris" finish should complement our tan bricks--I
>actually decided that was what the color I wanted before I even saw the
>one in the HF advertisement. Here's a link to the item (in case you want
>to get one):
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/garden-birdbath-37722.html
>
>I'm not sure if they are still $39.99.
>
>I wouldn't consider my landscaping complete though--even with the
>flamingos. So I'll save them for last! : ) After I tend to everything
>else, I may build some trellisi. Coming around to year 2 in the house,
>I am getting better at coming up with ideas.
You'll certainly want some of these, too, Bill. Tres chic!
http://www.fourcorners.com/product_details_Solar_Meerkats_Set_of_4.aspx
--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 16:59:21 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 18, 4:38Â pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Mar 18, 11:38Â am, Rich <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> Guess you could make the argument I could buy 3 or 4 of these routers to one
>> >> of the ones you push, Festool :)
>>
>> >I don't recall anyone here ever 'pushing' a Festool router. Most agree
>> >that it is a nice piece, but just too much money.
>> >In fact, I don't know very many people who own Festool routers. Just a
>> >few.
>> >Festool makes certain pieces of equipment that are simply 'nonpareil'
>> >and I'm not talking chocolates either.
>> >No manufacturer builds a line of tools that is the best at everything,
>> >taking simple value-for-dollar into consideration.
>> >Having said that, those routers from Festool are probably the best
>> >routers out there, but hard to justify the money.
>> >Same with that Kapex mitre saw... there are saws like that with  95%
>> >of the performance for half the money.
>>
>> Bingo. My gripe, exactly. (Half or less money.) If Festering dialed up
>> the profit number 20% instead of 200-350%, I wouldn't have anything to
>> gripe at 'em about.
>
>BUT... for many of their tools and dust-collection integration,
>Festool is unbeatable.
>Their sanders alone are unequalled.... and worth every nickel.
>That's the feedback I'm getting, without exception, about the Tracksaw
>System as well... again, another winner.
>>
>> >Besides, there are those who don't deserve a Festool tool, just like
>> >some hack fiddler doesn't deserve a Stradivarius.
>>
>> The number of unworthies comes up to at least 80% of all violinists,
>> doesn't it, Toy? Â Then again, a really nice tool can make a hack a bit
>> better, so what's the harm? Â Now, -which- are the really nice tools?
>
>In powertools, across the board, you can't lose with Festool. Is their
>jigsaw THAT much better than Bosch's? Are their routers THAT much
>better than Milwaukee's? Is that Kapex (aside from dust-collection)
>THAT much better than quite a few good sliders, like the Makita, newer
>Bosch, and now that Milwaukee brute?
Not to me.
>Does anybody else make a Domino? Well? Huh? I'm asking!!
"Not yet." he stated, quite impatiently.
>Their cordless drills? Overpriced, IMHO, as is their electric
>planer... but.. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG buying ANY Festool product..and
>THAT, my dear C-less, is worth a shitload to a guy who wants
>reliability and integration.... and has a solid enough business,
>current and in outlook, that he can afford those expenditures.
Reliability? Even with half my tool inventory consisting of HF tools,
I've had very few tool dropouts, and those which did did so in the
first minutes of their lives. How much better is a Festering sucker
than a ShopVac with an inch of water in the bottom + a HEPA filter?
OK, so it's considerably quieter. It's also ~$400 more expensive.
>Does Snap-On make shite? Will an ACE hardware store 2.00 dollar
>screwdriver do?
Not so much and no, respectively.
--
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country
against his government." --Edward Abbey
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 15:49:25 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> cannibalize the name or criticize the brand unless you have first hand
>>> experience with the product and have a legitimate complaint.
>>
>>Unfortunately, one doesn't need that first hand experience to complain
>>about
>>Festool prices. I admit to not liking them at all, but I don't complain
>>about them because I do have first hand experience with several Festool
>>products. And since my initial foray into Festool territory gave me what I
>>wanted most which was dust collection, I've reconciled myself to those
>>prices. Coupled with Festool's 30 day, no hassle, full refund if you're
>>not
>>completely satisifed with their products, there was really no risk for me
>>to
>>take that first step into Festool territory to see if the tool met my
>>needs.
>>
>>There's a special type of satisfaction in buying and owning a tool that in
>>most cases, you know it will do what it's supposed to do first time and
>>everytime. Yeah, that satisfaction usually costs extra money. But for me
>>anyway, I'd much prefer that to buying some tool really cheaply that I'm
>>less confident about and always have the thought in the back of my minding
>>wondering if or when it was going to fail.
>
> I've lived with crappy tools for many years but didn't want to replace
> them
> because they still "worked". When I finally did replace the original
> Sears
> crap the difference was amazing and I promised myself that I'd never buy a
> cheap tool again (unless it was a one-job throw-away). If I couldn't
> afford
> the "best", I didn't buy anything. Now that I'm in a position where I can
> buy
> pretty much anything I want, I do. The Kapex (or a Laguna BS, for that
> matter) is still beyond what I'm willing to pay.
I would love to own a Kapex but I probably would not use it. I have a Delta
CMS and absolutely quit using it, in the shop, when I bought a cabinet saw
and found it to be superior,coupled with the Dubby jigs, compared to the
miter saw.
I do have the LT16 HD Laguna however.... You just walk up to it, tension
the blade, turn it on, and start cutting. It has been months since I
switched blades so there has been no guide adjustments and it has probably
been a couple of years since I have adjusted the top wheel tilt angle
regardless of which blade is mounted. When you are ready to simply cut with
the saw and quit tweeking the guides or top wheel the Laguna and or the
MiniMax saws fill the bill. I avoided my old BS in the past simply because
of the adjustements that were constantly needed, no longer. Oh and the 4.5
hp monster hanging off the back side of the saw never strains. ;~) AND
oddly the longer 150" blades are easier to deal with then folding up or
opening than the short ones.