Ridgid, Grizzly, or other 6" Jointer?

On 2/14/2016 9:47 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/14/2016 5:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> John McCoy wrote:
>>> "dadiOH"<[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
>>>> do - get that with my drum sander.
>>>
>>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>>> smooth but not flat.
>>
>> I don't have a planer, never used one but I suspect it is the same...
>>
>> Run board through, concave side down to make convex side flat. Turn
>> over,
>> run through to make concave side flat (and parallel).
> ...
>
>
> I suppose with the little lunchbox planers, they may not have enough
> hold down force to not, but a "real" planer will (and a lunchbox has to,
> at least to a degree) take any bow out, smooth the top surface as it
> goes through, then the bow will come back out the other side.

>
> A jointer, otoh, takes the high spots off and leaves one with a flat
> surface _first_. _THEN_ one runs that face down through the planer and
> ends up with voila!! a flat and parallel-faced piece of stock.
>
> --

And that is the correct way to do it. But a planer can take the bow out
if the wood is sent through with a flat sled and several wedges under
the "bowed up" spots to prevent the planer from bending/flatenning the
wood out.



But I have to say WHAT A PAIN IN THE BUTT! It works well but the
process is labor intensive, especially with long boards. You have to
grab the sled and the work as a unit and run tem through several times.
Heavy work by comparison to no sled.

On 2/13/2016 3:57 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

> i know you rulled out buying used due to availability but i would look
> harder for something used for several reasons
>
>

Good thing you are keeping them reasons a secret too. If the general
public knew of them chaos would ensue.

On 20 Feb 2016 18:25:06 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work
>> about the same.
>>
>
>I suspect it's because of 4 letters: HEPA. I noticed looking at vacs a few
>years ago that those 4 letters double a Vac's price. Ridgid had two that
>were almost identical, but one was HEPA and the other not. $200 price
>difference, IIRC.
>
>I can see paying extra for some of the features a Festool or Fein vac has,
>but maybe not $400 extra. I sure do like the variable speed and automatic
>on, but those features alone aren't worth quite that much.
>
>(FYI, my price information could be out of date... or just plain wrong.
>I'm not checking figures for a Usenet post.)
>
>Puckdropper

The Goretex filters for a Shopvac will give you a good approximation
of a hepa filtered one.

Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Excellent post Leon, with a lot of great info. I'm not a dowel fan
> myself, and also have the same dowel jig you have that I inherited.
> Used it a few times, not accurate enough for dowels. A prime attraction
> of the Domino, among many, is the joints can adjust a bit, so perfect
> precision is not needed. Dowels must be absolutely perfect, something
> that is incompatible with custom woodwork, imo.

You got it Jack! :-).






>
> On 2/24/2016 9:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/24/2016 7:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 12:28:21 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>> IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a
>>>> Domino an plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2
>>>> holes for dowels.
>>>
>>> You remember correctly! For some strange reason, they quit making
>>> them about 4+ years ago. I don't know what happened to them as the
>>> machine got some great reviews and a double dowel system certainly
>>> has its strength. Oddly, it was Freud that stopped, so there must
>>> have been some kind of copyright or patent infringement.
>>>
>>> But they are still around, and quite affordable. I have been tempted
>>> for years, especially since they offer 1/4" and 3/8" sizes on the
>>> bits for dowels. Even a 1/4" striated dowel properly installed has
>>> quite a bit of holding power, but that 3/8" would be about as strong
>>> as I would need. And of course, there is always the option to take
>>> one bit out and use it as a single dowel machine.
>>>
>>> http://www.tritontools.com/en-AU/Model/TDJ600
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> http://goo.gl/OYQKUF (which is a great tool manufacturer located in
>>> Germany, and all tools made there)
>>>
>>> The problem with the Mafell doweling machine... it even MORE
>>> expensive than the Domino, and not by a little bit, either.
>>>
>>> No doubt thanks to you, I wouldn't consider the Mafell in light of
>>> the Domino's performance.
>>>
>>> That Triton sure looks interesting though from time to time.
>>
>> I thought it was a pretty good idea but you know how things don't pan
>> out as they appear? Thinking about it, and this was long after I bought
>> the Domino, I considered that a large percentage of my mortises are in
>> the end of a narrow piece of wood. If the dowels are too far apart you
>> can only drill one hole and then you give up the strength of two dowels
>> which would also prevent the joint from rotating, like it would with
>> only one dowel. Alternatively you could drill one hole and simply move
>> the tool over and drill another hole closer. BUT that presents a fit
>> problem, you must drill the mating holes exactly the same distance apart
>> on the mating side of the joint.
>>
>> And on top of that even if you use both bits to drill pairs of holes,
>> alignment of mating holes is going to become an issue with the next set
>> of holes and each after that. Aligning to a pencil mark is not going to
>> be accurate enough with precise fitting dowels. This is OK with a plate
>> joiner as the biscuit can slip back and forth a slight bit.
>>
>>
>> The Domino has a solution which I use on every one of my mating
>> mortises. I cut one side as an exact fit mortice to fit the domino
>> tenon and the opposite side mortice is cut slightly elongated, wiggle
>> room. The bit simply swings slightly wider left and right when cutting
>> on that setting. IIRC the smallest setting for an elongated mortice is
>> about 3/16" wider than an exact fit. FWIW I never mate exact fit
>> mortises together. The Domino has an indexing system to insure exact
>> placement however the Festool reps explained that this is accurate as
>> long as the internal adjustment on the side to side movement of the bit
>> remains dead center. There is an eccentric adjustment, to compensate,
>> on one of the indexing pins but I never use it.
>>
>> Knowing that, I decided to not bother with exact fit mortices holes on
>> both sides. This very reason may be why some Domino owners do not use
>> their machines as much as I do. I don't expect the tool to always
>> perform precisely as designed, due to normal wear or what ever, so I get
>> to use it ever where I want with out alignment problems 10,000+ mortises
>> later. Is that clear at a all? LOL
>>
>>>
>>> Heck, I remember when dowel joints were considered great woodworking
>>> and a sign of craftsmanship. When I learned to lay up panels, we
>>> always did a few dowels per joint. I remember doing doweled miter
>>> joints on rail/stile construction, too. Looks pretty old fashioned,
>>> now...
>>>
>>
>>>
>> Yeah! I have one of those doweling jigs around here somewhere, I think.
>> You know the one with a turret and probably sitting beside that one
>> the self centering one. ;~)
>>
>> I experienced similar problems with both that I mentioned above.
>>
>>
>
>

Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:
>>
>> My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
>> It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
>> coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.
>>
>
> Home Depot offers a HEPA filter for the WD1450, I think it was VF5000 or
> VF6000. There may still be a bit of blow-by, but it does seem like the
> vacuum seals pretty well.
>
> Puckdropper
>

If the vac is not HEPA certified the filter is not guaranteed to prevent
the particles that you are wanting to capture from escaping. The HEPA
filters in my vac remain almost spotless, even after 8 years of use. The
vast majority of the fine particles are captured by the primary disposable
filter bag. As a result I never have to clean those final HEPA filters, or
any filters. I take that back, about 9 months ago one of the bags broke
and the HEPA filters did all of the work and and yo be cleaned that 1 time.

dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 02/22/2016 9:05 AM, Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> FWIW variable speed is important if you use the vac attached to power tools
>> and especially if you attach sanders. For the Festool sanders whose pad
>> does not hang over the edge of the work high suction is a problem. With
>> high suction the sander is more difficult to maneuver. On the flip side
>> you need high suction for saws, routers, dominos, etc.
> ...
>> Typical Quiet HEPA certified vacs typically offer low noise so you are not
>> tortured with the loud sound, automatic switching so that you only have to
>> turn on the attached tool, variable speed to match sanding dust collection
>> or high volume suction, ...
> ...
>
> Does it automagically regulate suction level to the tool or is that
> manual, Leon?
>
> --
>
>

Suction strength is manually regulated. If you are sanding something like
face frames or the edge of a board you want to increase suction as the
sander pad extends over the edge of the work and dust can fall over the
edge and there will be a big suction leak.

Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/21/2016 11:24 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Just a bit of info concerning the Lamello to the Domino. I seriously
>> doubt that there is much difference in the quality of the two units.
>>
>> The huge difference however is what they are making cuts for, the
>> biscuit or the floating tenon. IMHO the floating tenons are stronger
>> and fit in a larger variety of places. While the biscuit comes in the
>> FF size for face frames it is still twice as wide as a 5mm Domino which
>> is approximately 3/4" wide. IIRC the FF biscuit is 1-3/16" wide and
>> penetrates 1/4" on both halves.
>> The 5mm Domino penetrated 1/2" on both halves and is about 3/4" wide.
>>
>> There is a smaller Domino tenon, 4mm, and a much larger one, 10mm, that
>> the smaller Domino mortiser will cut and it penetrates about 1" on each
>> half of the joint.
>>
>> Basically you can add floating tenons to the end of a 1" wide rail
>> with no worry of it showing, not so with a plate joiner.
>>
>> Just saying.
>
> All good reasons for buying the Domino I'd think. Assuming you are
> right about the Lamello, I wouldn't be comfortable joining legs and
> rails and such with a 1/4" biscuit depth. I don't *need* anything like
> that for edge gluing table tops and such, not needed imo. Pocket joints
> are fine for FF, but any where you would need/use a mortising machine, a
> Domino would seem the way to go. Your experience bears that out and if
> I were making my first cabinets, I'd be buying or saving up for one.
> Since I'm on closer to my last cabinet, I'll just get a drool cup and
> save my money for something more appropriate.
>
>

I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino for
panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and the ridged
floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work better with
alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating tenons work so
well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what all I would use them
for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and they certainly will, I suspect
the plate joiners will disappear.

Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
> Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work
> about the same.
>

I suspect it's because of 4 letters: HEPA. I noticed looking at vacs a few
years ago that those 4 letters double a Vac's price. Ridgid had two that
were almost identical, but one was HEPA and the other not. $200 price
difference, IIRC.

I can see paying extra for some of the features a Festool or Fein vac has,
but maybe not $400 extra. I sure do like the variable speed and automatic
on, but those features alone aren't worth quite that much.

(FYI, my price information could be out of date... or just plain wrong.
I'm not checking figures for a Usenet post.)

Puckdropper

Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:
>
> My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
> It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
> coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.
>

Home Depot offers a HEPA filter for the WD1450, I think it was VF5000 or
VF6000. There may still be a bit of blow-by, but it does seem like the
vacuum seals pretty well.

Puckdropper

Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:


> Finally a reason I'd want a Festool vac, never having to clean the
> filters. For the extra $500 though, I don't mind occasionally
> cleaning the filter. I usually do it each time I empty the 14 Gallon
> tank. My vac is also quiet enough I never consider not using it
> because of the noise, and no ear muffs needed. My 40 year old Shop
> Vac I hated to use because it required ear muffs or your ears would
> bleed. The main thing with the old shop vac was the high pitched
> scream. That is completely gone with the Ridged, so whatever noise it
> makes, it's simply not a problem at all.

*Snip*

Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags for
the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you only have
to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally clean, as
removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered about but you
don't have to clean the big filter.

I did put the dust diffuser/muffler on mine, and while it does help it's
only a marginal muffling. The diffuser is more important, as that vacuum
is set up with a marketing checkbox "can be used as leaf blower".

Puckdropper

Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> On 2/23/2016 2:11 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>
>> Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags
>> for the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you
>> only have to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally
>> clean, as removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered
>> about but you don't have to clean the big filter.
>
> I might consider that. Do you have a link to the bags you use? They
> seem to be all over the place price wise. My old shop vac had only a
> paper bag filter, and a sponge filter for water pickup. Is that how
> these things work?
>

These went up in price since I ordered... um I guess it was 3 years ago.
Still, at $6.50 a bag it's still not bad.

http://www.vacuumbags.com/rihiefwdmian.html

These attach to the suction inlet and trap the dust in the bag. It's
not like the shop vac paper filter that goes over the foam. The
original filter stays in place.

Puckdropper

On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 10:16:13 AM UTC-6, HerHusband wrote:
> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>

There's a used 6" powermatic in Portland for $475. Check it out.... Make an offer?... if it's still available.
https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/tls/5455011649.html

A 6" Jet in Vancouver for $450. Make an offer if still available.
https://portland.craigslist.org/clk/tls/5456569023.html

Sonny

Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work
>> about the same.
>>
>
> I suspect it's because of 4 letters: HEPA. I noticed looking at vacs a few
> years ago that those 4 letters double a Vac's price. Ridgid had two that
> were almost identical, but one was HEPA and the other not. $200 price
> difference, IIRC.
>
> I can see paying extra for some of the features a Festool or Fein vac has,
> but maybe not $400 extra. I sure do like the variable speed and automatic
> on, but those features alone aren't worth quite that much.

FWIW variable speed is important if you use the vac attached to power tools
and especially if you attach sanders. For the Festool sanders whose pad
does not hang over the edge of the work high suction is a problem. With
high suction the sander is more difficult to maneuver. On the flip side
you need high suction for saws, routers, dominos, etc.
FWIW also with a quiet vac you are more likely to use the vac with all of
your tools that work with a vac. I own 5 Festool power tools, not counting
the Festool vac. I never operate any of them with out the vac except for
the drill. So when ever I operate any of my corded Festool tools, the vac
automatically comes on.
Typical Quiet HEPA certified vacs typically offer low noise so you are not
tortured with the loud sound, automatic switching so that you only have to
turn on the attached tool, variable speed to match sanding dust collection
or high volume suction, and clean air exhaust. Clean air exhaust is
important for your lungs and for your finishes. I have no second thoughts
about sanding in close proximity to freshly stained or varnished pieces.

To sum it up, if you want to buy a vac that you will probably use more
because of these features buy better quality. If none of the above is
important to you then there are the ones they you find cheaply priced.
You do have the option of having a better vac.




>
> (FYI, my price information could be out of date... or just plain wrong.
> I'm not checking figures for a Usenet post.)
>
> Puckdropper
>

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 8:14:04 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

> The Domino has a solution which I use on every one of my mating=20
> mortises. I cut one side as an exact fit mortice to fit the domino=20
> tenon and the opposite side mortice is cut slightly elongated, wiggle=20
> room. The bit simply swings slightly wider left and right when cutting=20
> on that setting. IIRC the smallest setting for an elongated mortice is=
=20
> about 3/16" wider than an exact fit. FWIW I never mate exact fit=20
> mortises together. The Domino has an indexing system to insure exact=20
> placement however the Festool reps explained that this is accurate as=20
> long as the internal adjustment on the side to side movement of the bit=
=20
> remains dead center. There is an eccentric adjustment, to compensate,=20
> on one of the indexing pins but I never use it.

OK... no kidding... that makes perfect sense. I always thought that the mo=
rtises had to be nearly perfect for the actual Domino biscuit to work. Now=
I understand. This is kind of an "AHA!!" moment for me as I couldn't figu=
re out how anyone could get multiple dominoes places on the same surface wi=
thout the kind of accuracy that would make Krenov blush. Makes more sense,=
now.


>=20
> Knowing that, I decided to not bother with exact fit mortices holes on=20
> both sides. This very reason may be why some Domino owners do not use=20
> their machines as much as I do.

I have no doubt. I have never heard of that little "fudge factor" that wou=
ld make the tool imminently more usable. Doubtful most Domino owners have =
either. =20

> I don't expect the tool to always=20
> perform precisely as designed, due to normal wear or what ever, so I get=
=20
> to use it ever where I want with out alignment problems 10,000+ mortises=
=20
> later. Is that clear at a all? LOL

Read it a couple of times, but once I got the squirrel moving, my brain cau=
ght up with it. Makes perfect sense.


> Yeah! I have one of those doweling jigs around here somewhere, I think.=
=20
> You know the one with a turret and probably sitting beside that one=20
> the self centering one. ;~)

I used a clamp on model of the dowel drilling guide, one that had a long fl=
ange on it so that it could be secured to the work with a squeeze clamp. I=
t was a nice shop fixture, but undoubtedly we had alignment problems as you=
described. My solution (so kill me already...) was about the same as your=
Domino work around. One side of a glue up was drilled with the manufactur=
er's intended 1/4" dowels. The other I drilled with a slightly bigger hole=
to get that same fudge factor.

Not all that elegant, but it worked.

Robert

On 2/22/2016 10:05 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/22/2016 9:23 AM, Leon wrote:
>> dpb<[email protected]> wrote:
> ...
>
>>> Does it automagically regulate suction level to the tool or is that
>>> manual, Leon?
>>>
> ...
>
>> Suction strength is manually regulated. ...
>
> I figured as much or would be balleyhooed feature... :)
>
> "Inquiring minds..." :)
>
> --
>
>

LOL

On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 10:16:13 AM UTC-6, HerHusband wrote:
> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>
> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>
> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
> that price range I should consider?
>
> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anthony Watson
> www.watsondiy.com
> www.mountainsoftware.com



I have a 6" Grizzly (earlier version of)

http://grizzly.com/products/6-Jointer-with-Knock-Down-Stand/G0813

and have absolutely no complaints. Would a larger one be "nice," do I need that extra width? Not really. So, the bottom line is, what do normally use a jointer for? Then buy accordingly.

On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 12:50:18 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:
=20
> It's far more=20
> useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,=20
> most expensive solution.
>=20

Isn't that the truth. I have seen so many (especially hobbyists) paralyze =
themselves by waiting for a product that will make up for their lack of ski=
lls. Sometimes it isn't even a more expensive solution, just the simple pr=
omise that a new tool is coming out. With so many solutions out there for =
almost any woodworking challenge, unless you spot a tool that will be a bac=
kbone of your construction technique there isn't much of a reason to wait =
on a new product.

This is even more true when you stop and consider how many actual hours of =
usage said tool will face in a year's worth of work. To me it is almost alw=
ays better to find an immediate solution and get to work on the product.

Robert

On 2/21/2016 1:40 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/21/2016 12:34 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:
>>
>> My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
>
> OK, but immaterial...the comparison would show the same thing relatively.
>
>> It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
>> coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.
>
> It's what you _don't_ see that is typically the most most dangerous from
> a health standpoint.
>
> Again, HEPA and Festool's meet a certain market; in large part driven by
> the (relatively) new EPA RPP lead rules that mandate same under harsh
> penalty if not complied to by those who are subject to it. Ridgid won't
> cut it in that environment.
>
> ...
>
>> The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
>> well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
>> spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
>> owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
>> Leon contends:-)
>
> W/ <$30 oil, not likely to be any new wells popping up any time soon so
> you'd best not be waiting... :)
>
> I'm not likely to bite either as I have central dust collection for the
> big stuff and really just was too old and set in my ways to get
> concerned much about the little.
>
> But, the point is that there's a very definite reason the two aren't
> comparable in price and that is in what they do...and there is, of
> course, at least some that is the Festool premium simply because it is
> pea-green and white.
>


I prefer to think regular green and black. No white. LOL

On 2/14/2016 9:39 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 2/14/16 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/14/2016 5:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> John McCoy wrote:
>>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
>>>>> do - get that with my drum sander.
>>>>
>>>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>>>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>>>> smooth but not flat.
>>>
>>> I don't have a planer, never used one but I suspect it is the same...
>>>
>>> Run board through, concave side down to make convex side flat. Turn
>>> over,
>>> run through to make concave side flat (and parallel).
>>>
>>> Leon mentioned that drum sanders are slower and I imagine so. Still,I
>>> have
>>> a couple of hundred feet of mahogany I have been surfacing as needed
>>> and I
>>> can take off 1/16 per pass with #40 paper. Fast enough for me and no
>>> tear
>>> out :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> What model drum sander do you have? I have a Performax 22-44 with a
>> relatively fine grit compared to 40 but wow 1/16" in a pass is pretty
>> aggressive by my standards. :~) And thinking I should get some 40 grit
>> paper. I use my 15" planer when I need to do a lot but more often than
>> not the drum sander is adequate for small batches.
>
>
> I've got a 16/32 Performax, only 1 HP (not sure what the 22/44 has), but
> with a 36 grit belt I'll cut a 1/2 turn (1/32) per pass. I would
> hesitate to go deeper.
> One _big_ difference between a planer and drum is the drum has
> (comparatively) weaker hold down rollers and any bowing on boards longer
> than 2x the sanders bed width will leave divots (snipe).
>
> -BR
>

I believe I have 120 or 150 grit on my sander. I typically go a quarter
turn between passes.

I typically use the sander over the planer when I am dealing with wonky
grain. The sander is not going to present any tear out issues like a
planer will.

Additionally the big stationary planers, mine at least, have steel in
feed rollers with ridges to grab the wood. If you do not take off
enough material the in feed will leave shallow indentations in the wood.

I would have to guess this is if I am removing less than 1/64". It is
best to plan your last pass through the planer so that you are removing
a relatively measurable amount. Obviously the softer the wood the more
likely this is going to happen. I installed a digital depth gauge to
make sneaking up on the last pass a little easier.

On 2/13/2016 10:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>
> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>
> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
> that price range I should consider?
>
> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anthony Watson
> www.watsondiy.com
> www.mountainsoftware.com
>
>

I would say get as large as you can afford or have room for. I would
look for which might have longer beds. I had a short 6" jointer for
years. Mostly used it to tie the dog leash to. Several years ago I got
rid of it. It simply was too small. I would love to have a long bed
jointer but I have managed with out and I never buy rough cut lumber any
more. I use my track saw to straighten s2s when I buy that.

If you intend to use it a lot, one with the replaceable carbide cutters
might be a consideration. AND some joiners are now offering the throw
away replaceable blades similar to what is on the lunch box planers.
Use them, flip them and use again and then replace. I think those use
the Tersa knives. These are less expensive than the carbide
replacements but relatively easy to replace properly.

http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/jointer-planer-knives

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On 2/13/2016 8:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
> > I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
> >
> > So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
> > the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
> > and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
> > Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
> >
> > Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
> > that price range I should consider?
> >
> > I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>
> I will chime in here since I have the Ridgid jointer.
>
> In general, I am very happy with mine. It runs and cuts smoothly. The
> bed is long enough that you can really create a straight edge on a
> board. The bed height and the fence position adjustment are simple and
> straight forward. It came out of the box with the infeed and outfeed
> tables parallel. The tables are flat. (There is a minor 0.002 inch dip
> on one far corner of the infeed table but that is definitely not a
> problem since there is plenty of flat table before you get to the cutter
> head.)
>
> My only complaint is that the adjustment for the tilt of the fence seems
> a little strange to me. (This is my first and only jointer so I do not
> have any other data points for comparison.) The tilt adjustment
> articulates at a couple of points so that the fence can move up and down
> while adjusting the tilt. Since I wanted a small gap between the fence
> and the table tops, I used a piece of card stock to position the fence
> vertically while adjusting the tilt. I set it to 90 degrees when I first
> got the jointer and I have not changed it since.
>
> I bought the jointer is 2009. At that time it was listed at $428. I
> decided to buy it when Home Depot was having a 1/2 price sale. (I think
> that the reason for the sale was that this is when Home Deopt decided to
> no longer stock the jointers in the store.) I thought that $214 was a
> fair price. When I got to the store, the price that they charged me was
> $107 plus tax. I asked and they checked and that was the price that they
> had in their computer. The sales guy asked me if I wanted the second
> unit that they had in stock. I did not have room for a second unit and
> it was a good price but I declined.

You suck.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Jack wrote:
> > On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:
> >
> >> I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
> >> especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino
> >> for panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and
> >> the ridged floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work
> >> better with alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating
> >> tenons work so well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what
> >> all I would use them for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and
> >> they certainly will, I suspect the plate joiners will disappear.
> >
> > I wondered if anyone made Domino clone.
>
> Lots of people are making their own, numerous videos on Youtube.

Not really. Lots of people making jigs of one kind or another.
Something that does what the Domino does as conveniently and
efficiently, not so much.

Some guy with engineering talent and a well equipped machine shop might
have made an actual clone for his own use, but that's not something that
the average hobbyist is going to pull off.

On 2/14/2016 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> I think "if" I replaced mine I might look at the SuperMax, IIRC.
>> IIRC Jet bought Performax several years ago, just after I bought my
>> Performax, and sell it under the Jet and Powermatic name now. IIRC
>> the Jet was identical except for the name to my Performax
>
> Supermax are the same folks who started Performax with the accessory that
> mounted on a RAS. Nice folks, always responsive.
>
>


HUH! and no I know! I did notice that Jet is really getting onto this
type machinery and even some of their sanders closely resemble the SuperMax.


Oh BTY I was not pointing fingers at you about the difficulty you were
having with the slides or indicate that you were incapable of figuring
things out. Initially I had problems with the up/down thing too. BUT I
also had problems with pronouncing certain words until I learned and I
did not request that the words be spelled differently so that I could
say them. ;~) My comments were aimed more at those that do not do any
woodworking and try to tell us the best way to do so.

On 2/23/2016 9:30 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
>> especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino for
>> panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and the ridged
>> floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work better with
>> alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating tenons work so
>> well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what all I would use
>> them
>> for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and they certainly will, I
>> suspect
>> the plate joiners will disappear.
>
> I wondered if anyone made Domino clone. I certainly would be looking
> into getting a Domino if I were in the market. Jay Bates has a youtube
> video making a cabinet and he looks like he is using a domino. He makes
> pretty neat videos.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X0jdENSbJs
>
> Interesting watch even if you already have a domino...
>

I grinned through that and another of his video's. Took me back to
building furniture with construction grade lumber. I was amused at the
effort that went in to mounting the drawer slides too. ;~)

On 2/19/2016 7:54 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
> ...
>
>> So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
>> zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
>> cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
>> jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
>> your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
>> simply replaced with no touchy set up)
> ...
>
> A) Well eonough to satisfy me, yes...
> B) Not "zero" but it's quick-enough with a gauge and done infrequently
> enough as to not bother me...
> C) Eh?
> D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
> solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
> A) when it arises...
>
> I'm not saying there's no reason; only that I'd certainly never tell
> somebody to stop on that account from going forward; particularly when
> they've commented they're on a budget.
>
> --
>

Seems to be a lot of conjecture and speculation as to what the OP should
buy. We really need to get this right. To do it properly, the OP
should submit the following:
Income records for the past five years
Liabilities, mortgage, credit card statements.
List of woodworking projects from the past three years.
Projected projects for the next three years. Plans should be included
if available.
Inventory of wood and materials.

Once those materials are submitted the Equipment Committee will review
and recommend the right equipment.

>> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used
>> one.
>> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and
>> Grizzly, in the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers
>> aren't in stock yet, and the shipping costs would make it more
>> expensive. I could have the Ridgid shipped to my local store for
>> free, making it a bit cheaper.
>> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other
>> brands in that price range I should consider?
>> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.


> I have a 6" Grizzly (earlier version of)
> http://grizzly.com/products/6-Jointer-with-Knock-Down-Stand/G0813

I like the look of the newer Grizzly jointer, compared to the old one
with the controls up on a post. That just looks like an obstruction that
serves no other function than to place the controls up higher.

I have a G0555 Grizzly bandsaw that I've had a lot of trouble getting
aligned properly. Eventually had to drill out the riser holes to get the
adjustment I needed. So, that experience has left me a little leary of
Grizzly tools. Not enough to completely rule them out, but definitely
more cautious of the brand.

> Would a larger one be "nice," do I need that extra width? Not really.

Many people recommend getting an 8" jointer, but I really don't see
myself needing that. I very rarely use boards larger than 6", unless I
have glued up panels or something. A 6" jointer should be more than
adequate for my needs.

> what do you normally use a jointer for? Then buy accordingly.

The last few years I've started milling my own lumber. At first I was
just recycling old beams into new boards, but lately I've started sawing
trees into lumber and air-drying them. In every case, the boards are less
than 6" wide.

Until now, I've used a crude sled with my planer to flatten boards, but
it's a fairly tedious process.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>> Would a larger one be "nice," do I need that extra width? Not
>> really.
>
> Many people recommend getting an 8" jointer, but I really don't see
> myself needing that. I very rarely use boards larger than 6", unless I
> have glued up panels or something. A 6" jointer should be more than
> adequate for my needs.

The big advantage of a 8" jointer is a longer bed. Everything
else being equal, the longer the bed the better results you get.

I will note, as I have a 6" jointer, that there seem to be an
amazing number of 6.5" wide boards in the world.

John

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
> do - get that with my drum sander.

OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
smooth but not flat.

John

>>> Finally a reason I'd want a Festool vac, never having to clean the
>>> filters.

>> Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags for
>> the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you only have
>> to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally clean, as
>> removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered about but you
>> don't have to clean the big filter.
>
> I might consider that. Do you have a link to the bags you use?

I use the Ridgid brand filter bags from my local Home Depot. They end up
costing about $9 a piece, but each bag lasts a long time:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-High-Efficiency-Dust-Bags-for-RIDGID-12-
Gal-16-Gal-Vacuum-VF3502/100390230

Since I started using the filter bags I haven't changed the pleated filter
in years. The filter bags work great for fine dust like that from a sander,
drywall dust, and even COLD ash from the wood stove.

If you change the bag before it gets completely full, you can usually get
the bag out without spilling the dust all over. If you wait too long it
gets too big to remove from the tank without tearing. Don't ask me how I
know. :)

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On 2/21/2016 11:51 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/20/2016 9:37 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/20/2016 7:50 AM, Jack wrote:
>
>> As for sharpening, I have two sets; I send the one out and use the other
>> but it's normally at least a year between. At the amount of work I've
>> been doing it's been longer than that although was getting ready to ramp
>> up again to do the barn windows and hopefully some other stuff this
>> spring.
>>
>> That part, to me, just is a non-issue entirely and no reason to switch.
>
> I hear that. I'm not recommending anyone "switch", just not to go there
> in the first place. I myself have not switched my long blade jointer.
> I'm certain however, if I was 40 years younger and buying my first
> jointer/planer, they would have the segmented spiral cutter heads.
>
> I also would buy a Domino or similar tool rather than an el cheapo Delta
> mortise machine. I'd have to look into whether the extra 300 for the
> Festool was worth it vs say a Lamello, but I know I'd not be buying a
> dedicated mortiser, even though we lived many years w/o the Domino. This
> is based on owning a cheap delta mortiser, and Leon's comments on the
> Domino as well as watching them in use and seeing the advantages.
>
> This is just my opinion of course. Those just starting out can take it
> or leave it, it's just one guys opinion.


Just a bit of info concerning the Lamello to the Domino. I seriously
doubt that there is much difference in the quality of the two units.

The huge difference however is what they are making cuts for, the
biscuit or the floating tenon. IMHO the floating tenons are stronger
and fit in a larger variety of places. While the biscuit comes in the
FF size for face frames it is still twice as wide as a 5mm Domino which
is approximately 3/4" wide. IIRC the FF biscuit is 1-3/16" wide and
penetrates 1/4" on both halves.
The 5mm Domino penetrated 1/2" on both halves and is about 3/4" wide.

There is a smaller Domino tenon, 4mm, and a much larger one, 10mm, that
the smaller Domino mortiser will cut and it penetrates about 1" on each
half of the joint.

Basically you can add floating tenons to the end of a 1" wide rail
with no worry of it showing, not so with a plate joiner.

Just saying.

On 2/23/2016 9:30 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
>> especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino for
>> panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and the ridged
>> floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work better with
>> alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating tenons work so
>> well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what all I would use
>> them
>> for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and they certainly will, I
>> suspect
>> the plate joiners will disappear.
>
> I wondered if anyone made Domino clone. I certainly would be looking
> into getting a Domino if I were in the market. Jay Bates has a youtube
> video making a cabinet and he looks like he is using a domino. He makes
> pretty neat videos.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X0jdENSbJs
>
> Interesting watch even if you already have a domino...
>

Just a guess here, the Domino is unique and I'm sure it probably has
another 8~10 years of patent protection.

IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a Domino an
plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2 holes for dowels.

On 2/13/2016 8:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>
> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>
> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
> that price range I should consider?
>
> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.

I will chime in here since I have the Ridgid jointer.

In general, I am very happy with mine. It runs and cuts smoothly. The
bed is long enough that you can really create a straight edge on a
board. The bed height and the fence position adjustment are simple and
straight forward. It came out of the box with the infeed and outfeed
tables parallel. The tables are flat. (There is a minor 0.002 inch dip
on one far corner of the infeed table but that is definitely not a
problem since there is plenty of flat table before you get to the cutter
head.)

My only complaint is that the adjustment for the tilt of the fence seems
a little strange to me. (This is my first and only jointer so I do not
have any other data points for comparison.) The tilt adjustment
articulates at a couple of points so that the fence can move up and down
while adjusting the tilt. Since I wanted a small gap between the fence
and the table tops, I used a piece of card stock to position the fence
vertically while adjusting the tilt. I set it to 90 degrees when I first
got the jointer and I have not changed it since.

I bought the jointer is 2009. At that time it was listed at $428. I
decided to buy it when Home Depot was having a 1/2 price sale. (I think
that the reason for the sale was that this is when Home Deopt decided to
no longer stock the jointers in the store.) I thought that $214 was a
fair price. When I got to the store, the price that they charged me was
$107 plus tax. I asked and they checked and that was the price that they
had in their computer. The sales guy asked me if I wanted the second
unit that they had in stock. I did not have room for a second unit and
it was a good price but I declined.

Dan

On 2/13/2016 11:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>
> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>
> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
> that price range I should consider?
>
> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anthony Watson
> www.watsondiy.com
> www.mountainsoftware.com
>
>
Go big, go grizz 8" parallelogram.. or just 8" or more.
wider is better. I know I have a 6 and it's barely adequate, an 8" would
fit more needs. 12 perfect, but not reality.

--
Jeff

On 2/14/2016 10:18 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/14/2016 10:04 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/14/2016 9:47 AM, dpb wrote:
> ...
>
>>> I suppose with the little lunchbox planers, they may not have enough
>>> hold down force to not, but a "real" planer will (and a lunchbox has to,
>>> at least to a degree) take any bow out, smooth the top surface as it
>>> goes through, then the bow will come back out the other side.
>>
>>>
>>> A jointer, otoh, takes the high spots off and leaves one with a flat
>>> surface _first_. _THEN_ one runs that face down through the planer and
>>> ends up with voila!! a flat and parallel-faced piece of stock.
>>>
>> And that is the correct way to do it. But a planer can take the bow out
>> if the wood is sent through with a flat sled and several wedges under
>> the "bowed up" spots to prevent the planer from bending/flatenning the
>> wood out.
>>
>> But I have to say WHAT A PAIN IN THE BUTT! It works well but the process
>> is labor intensive, especially with long boards. You have to grab the
>> sled and the work as a unit and run tem through several times. Heavy
>> work by comparison to no sled.
>
> Yabbut... <VBG>
>
> I'd use a hand scrub plane first...for _a_ board.

Is that electric??? ;~) I did notice "a" board.


I do not do enough to warrant going further at this point. I hand pick
my S4S material. BUT several years ago I bought 200 BF of rough cut red
and white oak and flattened it on the sled and planer. Never again.
;~) I do not enjoy the process of turning rough lumber into "ready to
use" lumber.




>
> It's why I keep both planers and rue not having brought that large
> jointer altho I did finally break down and the last batch of maple I
> bought I paid for initial surfacing as it is almost all wider than 8"
> which the jointer here won't handle in a single pass...
>
> I may just check if TVA did ever get rid of it or whether it's still
> just sitting there -- might just have to take the truck next time go to
> visit the kids/grandkids!!! :)
>
> --

On 2/18/2016 11:34 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/14/2016 12:39 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/13/2016 10:17 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
>>>> do - get that with my drum sander.
>>>
>>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>>> smooth but not flat.
>
>> Obviously confused. Did he mention anything about a planer? I don't
>> believe that he said any thing about a drum sander being better suited
>> than a planer. He simply said, I can and do get a flat face with his
>> drum sander.
>>
>> But to answer your question, the drum sander pretty much will do what a
>> planer will do except at a much slower pace. Given that, a rum sander
>> has many advantages over a planer.
>
> A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
> required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
> their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get wood to
> a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or sander is
> fraught with disappointment.

True for the most part but with a sled, not just a panel so much as a
reinforced panel that remains flat, you can flatten a surface on a
planer, flip and make the opposite surface parallel with the other.

This is not an easy task and a jointer would better suited, but in a
pinch... The drum sander essentially works the same as a planer and can
do that of a planer but typically slower and with a smoother result.

>
> If you are using rough cut lumber, re-using, re-purposing lumber, making
> wood from firewood and other such things, you need a jointer and a
> planer. I would not but either unless they had segmented, spiral cutter
> heads. If you can't afford that, save your pennies.

On 2/15/2016 10:48 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 23:03:35 -0000 (UTC)
> HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> leary of Grizzly tools. Not enough to completely rule them out, but
>> definitely more cautious of the brand.
>
> i would not buy grizzly and i have exactly one of them and like jet
> they just have not put enough effort into the quality
>


Champagne on a beer budget?

On 2/13/2016 1:54 PM, Bill wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>> On 2/13/2016 11:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
>>> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>>>
>>> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and
>>> Grizzly, in
>>> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock
>>> yet,
>>> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
>>> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>>>
>>> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other
>>> brands in
>>> that price range I should consider?
>>>
>>> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Anthony Watson
>>> www.watsondiy.com
>>> www.mountainsoftware.com
>>>
>>>
>> Go big, go grizz 8" parallelogram.. or just 8" or more.
>> wider is better. I know I have a 6 and it's barely adequate, an 8"
>> would fit more needs. 12 perfect, but not reality.
>>
>
> This thread prompted me to go visit the Grizzly G490 8" jointer online.
> Discontinued? Replaced with G490W. From a brief comparison of the
> details:
>
> G490 is rated 15Amp, G490W 12 Amps.
> Cutterhead spead: G490 4800 RPM, G490W 5350 RPM, so
> Cuts per minute 19200, verus 21400.
> Table length has grown by 3/8" from 76 3/8" (long).
> At first I though the W was for "White", but they appear to be the
> identical,
> I'm not sure what the W stands for?
> Fence is identical size.
> The shipping weight is listed as identical (562 pounds), but they may
> not have
> thoroughly updated the web site.
> There was a small price increase ($30)
> Table thickness is now 2 7/8" instead of 1 1/2" --ahh, there's the 'W'.
> Table height (from ground) is now 3/8" lower.
>
> Clearly this one has been on my radar screen for a while. It's still
> unclear whether this will be the year...
>
> Anyway, care to know which jointer *I* would choose? : ) I'm curious
> whether Powermatic or Jet can even "compete" with a 2 7/8" table
> thickness? Interesting that this spec. feature doesn't even make it
> into their product description, but it's on the "specification sheet".
> And some of you may already know how I am about cast iron... :: wiping
> the saliva from my lips :: ; )
>
> Bill
>
I'm not sure table thickness guarantees quality of results. It could be
hollow under the edge, like the back side of it's fence and like many TS
tops.

BUT it looks decent. It certainly seems to be right for flattening 8"
material to to a certain length. ;~)

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 12:28:21 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
=20
> IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a Domino an=
=20
> plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2 holes for dowels.

You remember correctly! For some strange reason, they quit making them abo=
ut 4+ years ago. I don't know what happened to them as the machine got som=
e great reviews and a double dowel system certainly has its strength. Oddl=
y, it was Freud that stopped, so there must have been some kind of copyrigh=
t or patent infringement.

But they are still around, and quite affordable. I have been tempted for y=
ears, especially since they offer 1/4" and 3/8" sizes on the bits for dowel=
s. Even a 1/4" striated dowel properly installed has quite a bit of holdin=
g power, but that 3/8" would be about as strong as I would need. And of co=
urse, there is always the option to take one bit out and use it as a single=
dowel machine.

http://www.tritontools.com/en-AU/Model/TDJ600

or

http://goo.gl/OYQKUF (which is a great tool manufacturer located in Germany=
, and all tools made there)

The problem with the Mafell doweling machine... it even MORE expensive than=
the Domino, and not by a little bit, either. =20

No doubt thanks to you, I wouldn't consider the Mafell in light of the Domi=
no's performance.

That Triton sure looks interesting though from time to time.

Heck, I remember when dowel joints were considered great woodworking and a =
sign of craftsmanship. When I learned to lay up panels, we always did a fe=
w dowels per joint. I remember doing doweled miter joints on rail/stile co=
nstruction, too. Looks pretty old fashioned, now...

Robert

On 2/13/2016 11:00 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
> On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 10:16:13 AM UTC-6, HerHusband wrote:
>> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>>
>> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
>> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
>> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
>> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>>
>> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
>> that price range I should consider?
>>
>> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Anthony Watson
>> www.watsondiy.com
>> www.mountainsoftware.com
>
>
>
> I have a 6" Grizzly (earlier version of)
>
> http://grizzly.com/products/6-Jointer-with-Knock-Down-Stand/G0813
>
> and have absolutely no complaints. Would a larger one be "nice," do I need that extra width? Not really. So, the bottom line is, what do normally use a jointer for? Then buy accordingly.
>
Absolutely a good point. Buying a jointer to fit a location or space and
not to satisfy the need for one might be a disappointment. I know this
from experience.

On 2/24/2016 7:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 12:28:21 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>
>> IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a
>> Domino an plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2
>> holes for dowels.
>
> You remember correctly! For some strange reason, they quit making
> them about 4+ years ago. I don't know what happened to them as the
> machine got some great reviews and a double dowel system certainly
> has its strength. Oddly, it was Freud that stopped, so there must
> have been some kind of copyright or patent infringement.
>
> But they are still around, and quite affordable. I have been tempted
> for years, especially since they offer 1/4" and 3/8" sizes on the
> bits for dowels. Even a 1/4" striated dowel properly installed has
> quite a bit of holding power, but that 3/8" would be about as strong
> as I would need. And of course, there is always the option to take
> one bit out and use it as a single dowel machine.
>
> http://www.tritontools.com/en-AU/Model/TDJ600
>
> or
>
> http://goo.gl/OYQKUF (which is a great tool manufacturer located in
> Germany, and all tools made there)
>
> The problem with the Mafell doweling machine... it even MORE
> expensive than the Domino, and not by a little bit, either.
>
> No doubt thanks to you, I wouldn't consider the Mafell in light of
> the Domino's performance.
>
> That Triton sure looks interesting though from time to time.

I thought it was a pretty good idea but you know how things don't pan
out as they appear? Thinking about it, and this was long after I bought
the Domino, I considered that a large percentage of my mortises are in
the end of a narrow piece of wood. If the dowels are too far apart you
can only drill one hole and then you give up the strength of two dowels
which would also prevent the joint from rotating, like it would with
only one dowel. Alternatively you could drill one hole and simply move
the tool over and drill another hole closer. BUT that presents a fit
problem, you must drill the mating holes exactly the same distance apart
on the mating side of the joint.

And on top of that even if you use both bits to drill pairs of holes,
alignment of mating holes is going to become an issue with the next set
of holes and each after that. Aligning to a pencil mark is not going to
be accurate enough with precise fitting dowels. This is OK with a plate
joiner as the biscuit can slip back and forth a slight bit.


The Domino has a solution which I use on every one of my mating
mortises. I cut one side as an exact fit mortice to fit the domino
tenon and the opposite side mortice is cut slightly elongated, wiggle
room. The bit simply swings slightly wider left and right when cutting
on that setting. IIRC the smallest setting for an elongated mortice is
about 3/16" wider than an exact fit. FWIW I never mate exact fit
mortises together. The Domino has an indexing system to insure exact
placement however the Festool reps explained that this is accurate as
long as the internal adjustment on the side to side movement of the bit
remains dead center. There is an eccentric adjustment, to compensate,
on one of the indexing pins but I never use it.

Knowing that, I decided to not bother with exact fit mortices holes on
both sides. This very reason may be why some Domino owners do not use
their machines as much as I do. I don't expect the tool to always
perform precisely as designed, due to normal wear or what ever, so I get
to use it ever where I want with out alignment problems 10,000+ mortises
later. Is that clear at a all? LOL

>
> Heck, I remember when dowel joints were considered great woodworking
> and a sign of craftsmanship. When I learned to lay up panels, we
> always did a few dowels per joint. I remember doing doweled miter
> joints on rail/stile construction, too. Looks pretty old fashioned,
> now...
>

>
Yeah! I have one of those doweling jigs around here somewhere, I think.
You know the one with a turret and probably sitting beside that one
the self centering one. ;~)

I experienced similar problems with both that I mentioned above.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 13:34:56 -0500, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:
>
>My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
>It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
>coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.

6HP??? <giggle>
>
>Standard 2.5" hoses fit it, along with their attachments, so my old shop
>vac stuff works fine. It doesn't go on automatically when I plug a tool
>into it, but I don't care there either, because all my tools are on a
>dust collector system. I have no problem flicking the switch on my Long
>Ranger.
>
>My main reason for getting rid of the shop vac, which I've had for 40
>years, and it still works same as it did the day I got it, was
>noise.(damn things you want to break never do)
>
>The ridged sucks harder, a plus, but mainly it is quiet enough it
>doesn't bother me in the least. The old Shop Vac was the only tool I
>needed ear muffs with, and that includes chainsaws and routers, although
>routers are nasty noise wise. That shop vac made my ears bleed.
>
>The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
>well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
>spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
>owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
>Leon contends:-)

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 20:20:17 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2/19/2016 7:54 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
>>> zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
>>> cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
>>> jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
>>> your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
>>> simply replaced with no touchy set up)
>> ...
>>
>> A) Well eonough to satisfy me, yes...
>> B) Not "zero" but it's quick-enough with a gauge and done infrequently
>> enough as to not bother me...
>> C) Eh?
>> D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
>> solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
>> A) when it arises...
>>
>> I'm not saying there's no reason; only that I'd certainly never tell
>> somebody to stop on that account from going forward; particularly when
>> they've commented they're on a budget.
>>
>> --
>>
>
>Seems to be a lot of conjecture and speculation as to what the OP should
>buy. We really need to get this right. To do it properly, the OP
>should submit the following:
>Income records for the past five years
>Liabilities, mortgage, credit card statements.
>List of woodworking projects from the past three years.
>Projected projects for the next three years. Plans should be included
>if available.
>Inventory of wood and materials.
>
>Once those materials are submitted the Equipment Committee will review
>and recommend the right equipment.

I can recommend a tool without marrying the guy! ;-)

On 2/13/2016 6:03 PM, HerHusband wrote:
>>> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used
>>> one.
>>> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and
>>> Grizzly, in the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers
>>> aren't in stock yet, and the shipping costs would make it more
>>> expensive. I could have the Ridgid shipped to my local store for
>>> free, making it a bit cheaper.
>>> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other
>>> brands in that price range I should consider?
>>> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>
>
>> I have a 6" Grizzly (earlier version of)
>> http://grizzly.com/products/6-Jointer-with-Knock-Down-Stand/G0813
>
> I like the look of the newer Grizzly jointer, compared to the old one
> with the controls up on a post. That just looks like an obstruction that
> serves no other function than to place the controls up higher.
I have a Delta with the controls on a post. It's nice, but like you said
it gets in the way if you needed to bevel away from the cutter.
Generally you try to tilt the fence toward the cutter. But there was a
time that the grain would not allow me to flip it, so I needed to remove
the post.

>
> I have a G0555 Grizzly bandsaw that I've had a lot of trouble getting
> aligned properly. Eventually had to drill out the riser holes to get the
> adjustment I needed. So, that experience has left me a little leary of
> Grizzly tools. Not enough to completely rule them out, but definitely
> more cautious of the brand.
Had the same problem with an American made Delta..
>
>> Would a larger one be "nice," do I need that extra width? Not really.
>
> Many people recommend getting an 8" jointer, but I really don't see
> myself needing that. I very rarely use boards larger than 6", unless I
> have glued up panels or something. A 6" jointer should be more than
> adequate for my needs.
>
>> what do you normally use a jointer for? Then buy accordingly.
>
> The last few years I've started milling my own lumber. At first I was
> just recycling old beams into new boards, but lately I've started sawing
> trees into lumber and air-drying them. In every case, the boards are less
> than 6" wide.
That's mostly when you'll need the width. Right now I have about 70
board feet of 4/4 tiger maple mostly wider than 6"
and I have some 8/4 and 10/4 tiger maple that is 12 or more inches wide.
(leg stock). I will use the jointer to rough a bit, and wind up doing
the rest by hand. Wish I had 8", and wish I had carbide spiral cutter.
I think the tear out would be minimized.

>
> Until now, I've used a crude sled with my planer to flatten boards, but
> it's a fairly tedious process.

Yes it is. But so is hand planning some type of wood. Others absolutely
require it.

>
> Anthony Watson
> www.watsondiy.com
> www.mountainsoftware.com
>


--
Jeff

On 02/13/2016 10:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>
> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>
> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
> that price range I should consider?
>
> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.


Hmmmm....I was going to suggest looking at Rikon but it appears they no
longer build the 20-110 and only have a little benchtop model now...

I "know nuthink!" of the Ridgid stuff (which, of course, is off-shore,
TTI which is owned by the parent also of Ryobi) so there's really
nothing of them related to the Ridgid pipe wrench outfit other than they
licensed the name.

Grizzly does have a good reputation amongst the importers for standing
behind their stuff's...

As others said, first really analyze what it is you think you'll be
doing with it and buy accordingly, rather than to fit something into a
niche corner in the shop.

--

On 2/13/16 10:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>
> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>
> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
> that price range I should consider?
>
> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anthony Watson
> www.watsondiy.com
> www.mountainsoftware.com
>
>

Can you be entirely certain they aren't the same machines painted
differently and put on different stands?
Sometimes you can tell by looking up parts.

If not, I'd go for longest beds as others suggested.
Also, most powerful motor.
Best dust collection.
Ease of adjustability AND set-up-- not setting it up from out of the
box. Setting up everything to get perfect results: bed coplaner, knives
perfectly flat to beds, etc.
How easy is it to change knives?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

woodchucker wrote:
> On 2/13/2016 11:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
>> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>>
>> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and
>> Grizzly, in
>> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock
>> yet,
>> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
>> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>>
>> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other
>> brands in
>> that price range I should consider?
>>
>> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Anthony Watson
>> www.watsondiy.com
>> www.mountainsoftware.com
>>
>>
> Go big, go grizz 8" parallelogram.. or just 8" or more.
> wider is better. I know I have a 6 and it's barely adequate, an 8"
> would fit more needs. 12 perfect, but not reality.
>

This thread prompted me to go visit the Grizzly G490 8" jointer online.
Discontinued? Replaced with G490W. From a brief comparison of the
details:

G490 is rated 15Amp, G490W 12 Amps.
Cutterhead spead: G490 4800 RPM, G490W 5350 RPM, so
Cuts per minute 19200, verus 21400.
Table length has grown by 3/8" from 76 3/8" (long).
At first I though the W was for "White", but they appear to be the
identical,
I'm not sure what the W stands for?
Fence is identical size.
The shipping weight is listed as identical (562 pounds), but they may
not have
thoroughly updated the web site.
There was a small price increase ($30)
Table thickness is now 2 7/8" instead of 1 1/2" --ahh, there's the 'W'.
Table height (from ground) is now 3/8" lower.

Clearly this one has been on my radar screen for a while. It's still
unclear whether this will be the year...

Anyway, care to know which jointer *I* would choose? : ) I'm curious
whether Powermatic or Jet can even "compete" with a 2 7/8" table
thickness? Interesting that this spec. feature doesn't even make it
into their product description, but it's on the "specification sheet".
And some of you may already know how I am about cast iron... :: wiping
the saliva from my lips :: ; )

Bill

On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 16:13:14 -0000 (UTC)
HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:

> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other
> brands in that price range I should consider?

from what i have read here and elsewhere it seems that most stuff is
made by the same processes and techniques in different places in
china

so i really wonder how much difference there is grizzly vs rigid

i know you rulled out buying used due to availability but i would look
harder for something used for several reasons

On 02/13/2016 1:54 PM, Bill wrote:
...

> whether Powermatic or Jet can even "compete" with a 2 7/8" table
> thickness? Interesting that this spec. feature doesn't even make it into
> their product description, but it's on the "specification sheet". And
> some of you may already know how I am about cast iron... :: wiping the
> saliva from my lips :: ; )

You do know that's only web depth, right?

--

dpb wrote:
> On 02/13/2016 1:54 PM, Bill wrote:
> ...
>
>> whether Powermatic or Jet can even "compete" with a 2 7/8" table
>> thickness? Interesting that this spec. feature doesn't even make it into
>> their product description, but it's on the "specification sheet". And
>> some of you may already know how I am about cast iron... :: wiping the
>> saliva from my lips :: ; )
>
> You do know that's only web depth, right?

After looking at the picture a 2nd time, that's what I surmised. That
said, is this a valuable improvement? I couldn't locate comparable
specs for Shop Fox or Powermatic.

Bill

HerHusband wrote:
> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>
> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and
> Grizzly, in the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers
> aren't in stock yet, and the shipping costs would make it more
> expensive. I could have the Ridgid shipped to my local store for
> free, making it a bit cheaper.
>
> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other
> brands in that price range I should consider?

If they were still being made, I would suggest Bridgewood, distributed by
Wilke Machinery but they are not, nor is Wilke Machinery still in business.
However, that is what I bought a dozen or more years ago because they were
very well made and gave the most bang for the buck.

If I had it to do over, I would buy none. Why? Because I rarely use it and
because I can do what it does in other ways. Consider...

Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and do -
get that with my drum sander. Normally, I do both sides of a board on the
sander (I start with rough lumber); at that point it is very unlikely that
either edge is at right angles to the faces so I skim off one edge on the
table saw, flip it and skim off the other edge.

IME, even rough lumber almost always has one edge that is suitable for
guiding on the saw fence. On the rare occasions that is not true, I will
use the joiner to nip off a bit so it is; however I could do the same thing
with a hand plane, or with a saw or router and straight edge.

I also use the sander for edges; it will only do up to 3" wide but is is
surprising how many parts are that ot less. For wider pieces, I could use
the joiner but I'm more likely to use my router table, especially on very
wide pieces, because I can run it flat rather than on edge.

In short, if I had to give up a tool, the joiner would go first; last would
be the drum sander. Yes, I'd dump my table saw before I gave up the sander.
Which doesn't mean you shouldn't buy a joiner, just saying. If I were you,
I'd not worry about width; as others have said, longest bed is best. Why
not worry about width? Because a joiner can give you a flat face but not
parallel ones...you need something else for that. Plus, because I wouldn't
run wide boards through a joiner without some sort of power feed.

On 02/13/2016 3:37 PM, Bill wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> On 02/13/2016 1:54 PM, Bill wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> whether Powermatic or Jet can even "compete" with a 2 7/8" table
>>> thickness? Interesting that this spec. feature doesn't even make it into
>>> their product description, but it's on the "specification sheet". And
>>> some of you may already know how I am about cast iron... :: wiping the
>>> saliva from my lips :: ; )
>>
>> You do know that's only web depth, right?
>
> After looking at the picture a 2nd time, that's what I surmised. That
> said, is this a valuable improvement? I couldn't locate comparable specs
> for Shop Fox or Powermatic.
...

I strongly doubt it's discernible to the end user...my guess would be
it's simply a production change, nothing more (or less, either, for that
matter).

That the overall weight didn't change noticeably means there's certainly
not more actually material mass; possibly they did get a little more
stiffness by slightly increasing depth dimension at the expense of
number or thickness of ribbing keeping overall material at essentially
the same weight. The advent of FEA is a great boon to let designers
optimize such things as resonances, stiffness, etc., etc., with minimum
weight. Computer time is quite cheap and models are able to be
extremely accurate any more. Don't know Grizz goes to such efforts but
wouldn't surprise me.

--

HerHusband wrote:
>>> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used
>>> one.
>>> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and
>>> Grizzly, in the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers
>>> aren't in stock yet, and the shipping costs would make it more
>>> expensive. I could have the Ridgid shipped to my local store for
>>> free, making it a bit cheaper.
>>> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other
>>> brands in that price range I should consider?
>>> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>
>> I have a 6" Grizzly (earlier version of)
>> http://grizzly.com/products/6-Jointer-with-Knock-Down-Stand/G0813
> I like the look of the newer Grizzly jointer, compared to the old one
> with the controls up on a post. That just looks like an obstruction that
> serves no other function than to place the controls up higher.
>
> I have a G0555 Grizzly bandsaw that I've had a lot of trouble getting
> aligned properly. Eventually had to drill out the riser holes to get the
> adjustment I needed. So, that experience has left me a little leary of
> Grizzly tools. Not enough to completely rule them out, but definitely
> more cautious of the brand.
>
>> Would a larger one be "nice," do I need that extra width? Not really.
> Many people recommend getting an 8" jointer, but I really don't see
> myself needing that. I very rarely use boards larger than 6", unless I
> have glued up panels or something. A 6" jointer should be more than
> adequate for my needs.
>
>> what do you normally use a jointer for? Then buy accordingly.
> The last few years I've started milling my own lumber. At first I was
> just recycling old beams into new boards, but lately I've started sawing
> trees into lumber and air-drying them. In every case, the boards are less
> than 6" wide.
Maybe besides (or instead of) the width, think of the length of the
boards. "They say" you can joint a board up to 1.5 times, it's table
length (but that may be stretching it).

>
> Until now, I've used a crude sled with my planer to flatten boards, but
> it's a fairly tedious process.
>
> Anthony Watson
> www.watsondiy.com
> www.mountainsoftware.com

John McCoy wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
>> do - get that with my drum sander.
>
> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
> smooth but not flat.

I don't have a planer, never used one but I suspect it is the same...

Run board through, concave side down to make convex side flat. Turn over,
run through to make concave side flat (and parallel).

Leon mentioned that drum sanders are slower and I imagine so. Still,I have
a couple of hundred feet of mahogany I have been surfacing as needed and I
can take off 1/16 per pass with #40 paper. Fast enough for me and no tear
out :)

On 2/14/16 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/14/2016 5:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> John McCoy wrote:
>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
>>>> do - get that with my drum sander.
>>>
>>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>>> smooth but not flat.
>>
>> I don't have a planer, never used one but I suspect it is the same...
>>
>> Run board through, concave side down to make convex side flat. Turn
>> over,
>> run through to make concave side flat (and parallel).
>>
>> Leon mentioned that drum sanders are slower and I imagine so. Still,I
>> have
>> a couple of hundred feet of mahogany I have been surfacing as needed
>> and I
>> can take off 1/16 per pass with #40 paper. Fast enough for me and no
>> tear
>> out :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> What model drum sander do you have? I have a Performax 22-44 with a
> relatively fine grit compared to 40 but wow 1/16" in a pass is pretty
> aggressive by my standards. :~) And thinking I should get some 40 grit
> paper. I use my 15" planer when I need to do a lot but more often than
> not the drum sander is adequate for small batches.


I've got a 16/32 Performax, only 1 HP (not sure what the 22/44 has), but
with a 36 grit belt I'll cut a 1/2 turn (1/32) per pass. I would
hesitate to go deeper.
One _big_ difference between a planer and drum is the drum has
(comparatively) weaker hold down rollers and any bowing on boards longer
than 2x the sanders bed width will leave divots (snipe).

-BR

On 02/14/2016 5:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> John McCoy wrote:
>> "dadiOH"<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
>>> do - get that with my drum sander.
>>
>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>> smooth but not flat.
>
> I don't have a planer, never used one but I suspect it is the same...
>
> Run board through, concave side down to make convex side flat. Turn over,
> run through to make concave side flat (and parallel).
...


I suppose with the little lunchbox planers, they may not have enough
hold down force to not, but a "real" planer will (and a lunchbox has to,
at least to a degree) take any bow out, smooth the top surface as it
goes through, then the bow will come back out the other side.

A jointer, otoh, takes the high spots off and leaves one with a flat
surface _first_. _THEN_ one runs that face down through the planer and
ends up with voila!! a flat and parallel-faced piece of stock.

--

On 02/14/2016 10:04 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/14/2016 9:47 AM, dpb wrote:
...

>> I suppose with the little lunchbox planers, they may not have enough
>> hold down force to not, but a "real" planer will (and a lunchbox has to,
>> at least to a degree) take any bow out, smooth the top surface as it
>> goes through, then the bow will come back out the other side.
>
>>
>> A jointer, otoh, takes the high spots off and leaves one with a flat
>> surface _first_. _THEN_ one runs that face down through the planer and
>> ends up with voila!! a flat and parallel-faced piece of stock.
>>
> And that is the correct way to do it. But a planer can take the bow out
> if the wood is sent through with a flat sled and several wedges under
> the "bowed up" spots to prevent the planer from bending/flatenning the
> wood out.
>
> But I have to say WHAT A PAIN IN THE BUTT! It works well but the process
> is labor intensive, especially with long boards. You have to grab the
> sled and the work as a unit and run tem through several times. Heavy
> work by comparison to no sled.

Yabbut... <VBG>

I'd use a hand scrub plane first...for _a_ board.

It's why I keep both planers and rue not having brought that large
jointer altho I did finally break down and the last batch of maple I
bought I paid for initial surfacing as it is almost all wider than 8"
which the jointer here won't handle in a single pass...

I may just check if TVA did ever get rid of it or whether it's still
just sitting there -- might just have to take the truck next time go to
visit the kids/grandkids!!! :)

--

Leon wrote:
> On 2/14/2016 5:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> John McCoy wrote:
>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can -
>>>> and do - get that with my drum sander.
>>>
>>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>>> smooth but not flat.
>>
>> I don't have a planer, never used one but I suspect it is the same...
>>
>> Run board through, concave side down to make convex side flat. Turn
>> over, run through to make concave side flat (and parallel).
>>
>> Leon mentioned that drum sanders are slower and I imagine so. Still,I
>> have a couple of hundred feet of mahogany I have been
>> surfacing as needed and I can take off 1/16 per pass with #40 paper.
>> Fast enough for me and no tear out :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> What model drum sander do you have? I have a Performax 22-44 with a
> relatively fine grit compared to 40 but wow 1/16" in a pass is pretty
> aggressive by my standards. :~) And thinking I should get some 40
> grit paper. I use my 15" planer when I need to do a lot but more
> often than not the drum sander is adequate for small batches.

Performax 16-32. The 1/16" is depending...how wide, how hard, how even (in
thickness, wind, etc.). Oak, probably not; poplar, sure.

At the moment, I am skinnying down some mahogany so I can see the grain so I
can make a support knee for wife's makeup table (the last thing for the
vanities). One piece is 10 1/2 wide, the others 6 1/2+-. I had 80 grit on
the machine, didn't want to change it so I'm just taking 1/32 per pass.
With 40 grit I am pretty sure I could do 1/16" even though one of the narrow
boards had some wind in it.

The four grits I use are 40, 80, 120 and 180. With 120, I only do 1/48 per
pass, with 180, 1/64. I have no problem skipping grits...40 to 120, eg, or
80 to 180. I get full rolls from Econ-Abrasives.
https://www.econabrasives.com/products.php?id=163&size=3%22X50Yards

Brewster wrote:
> On 2/14/16 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/14/2016 5:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> John McCoy wrote:
>>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can -
>>>>> and do - get that with my drum sander.
>>>>
>>>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>>>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>>>> smooth but not flat.
>>>
>>> I don't have a planer, never used one but I suspect it is the
>>> same... Run board through, concave side down to make convex side flat.
>>> Turn
>>> over,
>>> run through to make concave side flat (and parallel).
>>>
>>> Leon mentioned that drum sanders are slower and I imagine so. Still,I
>>> have
>>> a couple of hundred feet of mahogany I have been surfacing as needed
>>> and I
>>> can take off 1/16 per pass with #40 paper. Fast enough for me and
>>> no tear
>>> out :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> What model drum sander do you have? I have a Performax 22-44 with a
>> relatively fine grit compared to 40 but wow 1/16" in a pass is pretty
>> aggressive by my standards. :~) And thinking I should get some 40
>> grit paper. I use my 15" planer when I need to do a lot but more
>> often than not the drum sander is adequate for small batches.
>
>
> I've got a 16/32 Performax, only 1 HP (not sure what the 22/44 has),
> but with a 36 grit belt I'll cut a 1/2 turn (1/32) per pass. I would
> hesitate to go deeper.
> One _big_ difference between a planer and drum is the drum has
> (comparatively) weaker hold down rollers and any bowing on boards
> longer than 2x the sanders bed width will leave divots (snipe).

The boards I'm doing now (see reply to Leon) are about 7 1/2' long. Two
have mild bowing. No snipe.

As I run the board through, more is taken on the ends from the side bowed
up, more from the center from the side bowed down; final result is flat or
close to. Once cut to final length (44") and finish sanded, all bow will be
gone. It functions like that because I made extendible, variable, in/out
feed supports. On the bowed up side, the weight of the board keeps the
leading and trailing edges of the board a bit high; consequently, more is
taken off; conversely for the other side.

If the hold down rollers aren't properly adjusted, one will get snipe
regardless of the board length.

dpb wrote:
> On 02/14/2016 5:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> John McCoy wrote:
>>> "dadiOH"<[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can -
>>>> and do - get that with my drum sander.
>>>
>>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>>> smooth but not flat.
>>
>> I don't have a planer, never used one but I suspect it is the same...
>>
>> Run board through, concave side down to make convex side flat. Turn
>> over, run through to make concave side flat (and parallel).
> ...
>
>
> I suppose with the little lunchbox planers, they may not have enough
> hold down force to not, but a "real" planer will (and a lunchbox has
> to, at least to a degree) take any bow out, smooth the top surface as
> it goes through, then the bow will come back out the other side.

I'm glad I have the drum sander :)

On 02/14/2016 10:57 AM, dadiOH wrote:
...

> I'm glad I have the drum sander :)

They're nice, indeed...in Lynchburg had access to a large (30")
dual-drum unit but never did invest in one of the home-shop Performax or
similar...would be nice, however, granted...

But, I get by... :)

--

On 02/14/2016 12:35 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/14/2016 10:18 AM, dpb wrote:
...

>> I'd use a hand scrub plane first...for _a_ board.
>
> Is that electric??? ;~) I did notice "a" board.

Indeed. Deliberately stated as you noticed... :)

> I do not do enough to warrant going further at this point. I hand pick
> my S4S material. BUT several years ago I bought 200 BF of rough cut red
> and white oak and flattened it on the sled and planer. Never again. ;~)
> I do not enjoy the process of turning rough lumber into "ready to use"
> lumber.
...

I got in the habit when in VA and there were all those little one-man
sawmills everywhere that could get gorgeous stuff from at "giveaway"
prices. Oak (any kind, sawn however wanted, just pick it out) was 10
cents, walnut 15-20 and cherry up to 25 for really wide stuff...

Later, when wasn't so handy in TN I bought just 2C of whatever I wanted
as the most economical choice. I moved most of a (small bobtail)
truckload when we came back of a mix of oak, walnut, hard maple, some
butternut and a smattering of a lot of other stuff collected over 30
years.

When doing windows for the barn, however, I could _not_ find any 5/4
clear white pine at the time as it was in the big housing boom time and
everything was being bought up by Andersen, Pella, etc., or being
exported. So, I bought the soft maple for the purpose through the mill
shop in Wichita that did the replacement siding and bed mould I needed
for me. I did let them surface one side of it plus some 8" SYP I bought
from which to pick through to find trim pieces so I do have one flat
starting side on it.

The rest of everything here at the moment is all roughsawn, though.

--

On 02/14/2016 12:54 PM, Leon wrote:
...

>
> As I commented in a previous post, when they are available your find
> more uses. I forgot to mention in another post that I used it to tweak
> the fit of small short/shallow drawers by sanding the top edges and
> bottom edges on the drum sander.
>
> Anyway.........

I know I've told the story before that when first got to Lynchburg where
there were TREES!!!! for heaven's sake!! and got the real ww'ing bug
that had been mildly planted in HS shop, first ran into a kid just out
of HS at the time making decoupage plaques on a one-at-a-time basis with
a little Craftsman shaper and hand sander. Mr Davis of Davis Paint, a
regional manufacturer there was selling them in their retail store
downtown for him and he was earning enough (with a lot of time invested)
to keep himself in school at least part time with a new wife, to boot.

Mr Davis offered to bankroll him a shop and it was answering his ad in
the Sunday paper to sell the shaper and the Powermatic planer that I met
him. Mr Davis upgraded him and set him up a shop in the 2nd basement
under the store (there were two more below it, 12-ft ceilings, dry,
well-lit, _great_ shop space) with a two-spindled shaper, the 24" PM
planer and a stroke sander.

Within five years, Eddie was running 40,000 bd-ft thru the shop in a
single year, primarily at that time doing the wooden platforms for
Craddock-Terry shoe company there in Lynchburg. At that time the plaque
business had fallen off but the remnant of it was access to the drum
sander when I wanted...

The sander was an old Smith unit Mr Davis got from Lane on a swap; iirc
it was 20hp. Initially there wasn't enough dust collection and things
got real messy the first time we turned it on! :)

--

Leon wrote:

> I think "if" I replaced mine I might look at the SuperMax, IIRC.
> IIRC Jet bought Performax several years ago, just after I bought my
> Performax, and sell it under the Jet and Powermatic name now. IIRC
> the Jet was identical except for the name to my Performax

Supermax are the same folks who started Performax with the accessory that
mounted on a RAS. Nice folks, always responsive.

Leon wrote:
> On 2/14/2016 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>> I think "if" I replaced mine I might look at the SuperMax, IIRC.
>>> IIRC Jet bought Performax several years ago, just after I bought my
>>> Performax, and sell it under the Jet and Powermatic name now. IIRC
>>> the Jet was identical except for the name to my Performax
>>
>> Supermax are the same folks who started Performax with the accessory
>> that mounted on a RAS. Nice folks, always responsive.
>>
>>
>
>
> HUH! and no I know! I did notice that Jet is really getting onto this
> type machinery and even some of their sanders closely resemble the
> SuperMax.
>
> Oh BTY I was not pointing fingers at you about the difficulty you were
> having with the slides or indicate that you were incapable of figuring
> things out. Initially I had problems with the up/down thing too.

NP. They make sense once one knows about it.

> BUT I also had problems with pronouncing certain words until I
> learned and I did not request that the words be spelled differently so
> that I could
> say them. ;~) My comments were aimed more at those that do not do
> any woodworking and try to tell us the best way to do so.

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach :)

On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 19:25:53 -0500
Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

> Good thing you are keeping them reasons a secret too. If the general
> public knew of them chaos would ensue.

i know

wait chaos has already ensued you are too late

On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 23:03:35 -0000 (UTC)
HerHusband <[email protected]> wrote:

> leary of Grizzly tools. Not enough to completely rule them out, but
> definitely more cautious of the brand.

i would not buy grizzly and i have exactly one of them and like jet
they just have not put enough effort into the quality

On 2/14/2016 10:42 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 2/14/2016 5:23 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> John McCoy wrote:
>>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can -
>>>>> and do - get that with my drum sander.
>>>>
>>>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>>>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>>>> smooth but not flat.
>>>
>>> I don't have a planer, never used one but I suspect it is the same...
>>>
>>> Run board through, concave side down to make convex side flat. Turn
>>> over, run through to make concave side flat (and parallel).
>>>
>>> Leon mentioned that drum sanders are slower and I imagine so. Still,I
>>> have a couple of hundred feet of mahogany I have been
>>> surfacing as needed and I can take off 1/16 per pass with #40 paper.
>>> Fast enough for me and no tear out :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> What model drum sander do you have? I have a Performax 22-44 with a
>> relatively fine grit compared to 40 but wow 1/16" in a pass is pretty
>> aggressive by my standards. :~) And thinking I should get some 40
>> grit paper. I use my 15" planer when I need to do a lot but more
>> often than not the drum sander is adequate for small batches.
>
> Performax 16-32. The 1/16" is depending...how wide, how hard, how even (in
> thickness, wind, etc.). Oak, probably not; poplar, sure.
>
> At the moment, I am skinnying down some mahogany so I can see the grain so I
> can make a support knee for wife's makeup table (the last thing for the
> vanities). One piece is 10 1/2 wide, the others 6 1/2+-. I had 80 grit on
> the machine, didn't want to change it so I'm just taking 1/32 per pass.
> With 40 grit I am pretty sure I could do 1/16" even though one of the narrow
> boards had some wind in it.
>
> The four grits I use are 40, 80, 120 and 180. With 120, I only do 1/48 per
> pass, with 180, 1/64. I have no problem skipping grits...40 to 120, eg, or
> 80 to 180. I get full rolls from Econ-Abrasives.
> https://www.econabrasives.com/products.php?id=163&size=3%22X50Yards
>
>


Sounds about right per my findings....

I bought from
http://www.abrasiveaccessories.com/abrasive-products.php?id=169&size=3X50YRD

I would not be supervised if they were both one in the same. They are
from the same metro area of Dallas TX

I do see that they have dropped their web pricing.

On 2/14/2016 12:39 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/13/2016 10:17 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
>>> do - get that with my drum sander.
>>
>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>> smooth but not flat.

> Obviously confused. Did he mention anything about a planer? I don't
> believe that he said any thing about a drum sander being better suited
> than a planer. He simply said, I can and do get a flat face with his
> drum sander.
>
> But to answer your question, the drum sander pretty much will do what a
> planer will do except at a much slower pace. Given that, a rum sander
> has many advantages over a planer.

A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get wood to
a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or sander is
fraught with disappointment.

If you are using rough cut lumber, re-using, re-purposing lumber, making
wood from firewood and other such things, you need a jointer and a
planer. I would not but either unless they had segmented, spiral cutter
heads. If you can't afford that, save your pennies.

If you use a planer (hopefully with a segmented spiral cutter head) you
probably need a jointer (hopefully with a segmented spiral cutter head)
Tis not easy to build fine furniture w/o a planer, as store bought
lumber is not always the correct thickness for proper esthetics, among
other things.

Jointing an edge is a luxury with a jointer, but can be done ok with a
TS. A Flat face, a requirement for use with a planer, is done on a
jointer. Generally speaking, 6" wide is enough, as (generally speaking)
wide boards should be made up of *less* than 6" wide pieces.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/13/2016 10:40 PM, woodchucker wrote:

> That's mostly when you'll need the width. Right now I have about 70
> board feet of 4/4 tiger maple mostly wider than 6"
> and I have some 8/4 and 10/4 tiger maple that is 12 or more inches wide.
> (leg stock). I will use the jointer to rough a bit, and wind up doing
> the rest by hand. Wish I had 8", and wish I had carbide spiral cutter.
> I think the tear out would be minimized.

You get about zero tear out with spiral cutter head, but that is only
one of the advantages. Others are: no setup (always level knives).
Stay sharp 4 times longer (4 edges instead of one) Small chips (don't
clog dust collector pipes, quiet as a mouse (you can plane wide tiger
maple in your basement, late at night, in your underwear, and not wake
the neighbors. I would not buy a planer or jointer without the spiral,
segmented cutters.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 02/18/2016 11:34 AM, Jack wrote:
...

> If you are using rough cut lumber, re-using, re-purposing lumber, making
> wood from firewood and other such things, you need a jointer and a
> planer. I would not but either unless they had segmented, spiral cutter
> heads. If you can't afford that, save your pennies.
...

The spiral segmented head has some advantages, granted, but we survived
just fine without for 100 year or so before they were available, so the
advice to do without unless is _way_ over the top imo. It's far more
useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,
most expensive solution.

--

Jack wrote:
> On 2/14/2016 12:39 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/13/2016 10:17 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can -
>>>> and do - get that with my drum sander.
>>>
>>> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
>>> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
>>> smooth but not flat.
>
>> Obviously confused. Did he mention anything about a planer? I don't
>> believe that he said any thing about a drum sander being better
>> suited than a planer. He simply said, I can and do get a flat face
>> with his drum sander.
>>
>> But to answer your question, the drum sander pretty much will do
>> what a planer will do except at a much slower pace. Given that, a
>> rum sander has many advantages over a planer.
>
> A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
> required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
> their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get wood
> to a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or sander
> is fraught with disappointment.

I've used my drum sander for that purpose (and others) with at least 1000
brd.ft. of lumber. I have never been disappointed.

On 2/18/2016 1:50 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/18/2016 11:34 AM, Jack wrote:
> ...
>
>> If you are using rough cut lumber, re-using, re-purposing lumber, making
>> wood from firewood and other such things, you need a jointer and a
>> planer. I would not but either unless they had segmented, spiral cutter
>> heads. If you can't afford that, save your pennies.
> ...
>
> The spiral segmented head has some advantages, granted, but we survived
> just fine without for 100 year or so before they were available, so the
> advice to do without unless is _way_ over the top imo. It's far more
> useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,
> most expensive solution.

I agree if you are talking about a $600 Festool shop vac vs a $100
Ridged. I don't agree if you are talking about a jointer or a planer.
The difference is not slight, it is major, and the results are not the
same. And, you don't have to buy the most expensive one, you can buy
Grizzly instead. In other words, buy a ridged shop vac for $100 and use
the $400-500 savings from Festool to step up to a helical segmented
planer/jointer.

As far as survival, we survived lots of stuff. We could always use a
hand plane if survival was the issue. If you are buying, might as well
get a tool that has major advantages. If you already own a lessor tool
(I own an archaic jointer) no need to run out and buy a new one, but
once you use a segmented cutter head, anything less is an aggravation.
My jointer is 60 years old, so keep in mind for home workshop use, these
things will be in use a LONG time, so why buy aggravation.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 02/19/2016 9:07 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/18/2016 1:50 PM, dpb wrote:
...

>> The spiral segmented head has some advantages, granted, but we survived
>> just fine without for 100 year or so before they were available, so the
>> advice to do without unless is _way_ over the top imo. It's far more
>> useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,
>> most expensive solution.
>
> I agree if you are talking about a $600 Festool shop vac vs a $100
> Ridged. I don't agree if you are talking about a jointer or a planer.
> The difference is not slight, it is major, and the results are not the
> same. And, you don't have to buy the most expensive one, you can buy
> Grizzly instead. In other words, buy a ridged shop vac for $100 and use
> the $400-500 savings from Festool to step up to a helical segmented
> planer/jointer.

That's not the same argument as not buying anything unless...

> As far as survival, we survived lots of stuff. We could always use a
> hand plane if survival was the issue. If you are buying, might as well
> get a tool that has major advantages. If you already own a lessor tool
> (I own an archaic jointer) no need to run out and buy a new one, but
> once you use a segmented cutter head, anything less is an aggravation.
> My jointer is 60 years old, so keep in mind for home workshop use, these
> things will be in use a LONG time, so why buy aggravation.

Mine is also (old Rockwell Delta 8") and I've used ones with both
helical solid knives and the segmented heads as well and just don't see
_that_ much difference, sorry. In fact, the segmented heads I've
seen/used left telltale marks behind...easy enough to remove, sure, but...

--

On 2/18/2016 2:26 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Jack wrote:

>> A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
>> required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
>> their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get wood
>> to a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or sander
>> is fraught with disappointment.
>
> I've used my drum sander for that purpose (and others) with at least 1000
> brd.ft. of lumber. I have never been disappointed.

How many brd.ft of 1 1/8" or 5/4" or 1/2" stock have you made with your
sander? Not much I imagine. How long would it take you to sand a 2x6x8
to 1 1/8" thickness?

Also, flattening twisted stock on a drum sander or a planer is a royal
pia, which is why jointers exist. Can you sand a hunk of black walnut
firewood flat? Simple with a jointer. If you don't do any of this
stuff, maybe a jointer/planer is not needed. If you do, then a drum
sander may be useful at some point, but it is not the right tool for
this stuff.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 02/19/2016 9:27 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/19/2016 9:07 AM, Jack wrote:
...

>> ... In other words, buy a ridged shop vac for $100 and use
>> the $400-500 savings from Festool to step up to a helical segmented
>> planer/jointer.
>
> That's not the same argument as not buying anything unless...
>
>> As far as survival, we survived lots of stuff. We could always use a
>> hand plane if survival was the issue. If you are buying, might as well
>> get a tool that has major advantages. If you already own a lessor tool
>> (I own an archaic jointer) no need to run out and buy a new one, but
>> once you use a segmented cutter head, anything less is an aggravation.
>> My jointer is 60 years old, so keep in mind for home workshop use, these
>> things will be in use a LONG time, so why buy aggravation.
...

The same argument could be made against the purchase of the Ridgid vis a
vis the Festool; they're far superior in many ways as well... :)

But, I hadn't realized the price differential had come down to that
level; just looked up a couple. Thought was still closer to 2X that...

Still I'd never tell somebody they _had_ to spend that extra $400-500 or
the rest was a mistake.

--

On 2/18/2016 7:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 12:50:18 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:
>
>> It's far more
>> useful to go get some work done than it is to wait for the ultimate,
>> most expensive solution.
>>

> Isn't that the truth. I have seen so many (especially hobbyists) paralyze themselves by waiting
> for a product that will make up for their lack of skills.

Just as common is a hobbyists buying the first cheap tool they see and
ending up replacing it with one that does the job, paying twice, or
quitting because their tools weren't up to the task. At any rate, the
tool is a helical spiral cutter head. Grizzly makes cheap ones, or you
can splurge and spend a ton on an industrial high dollar one. If you are
hard up for cash, get the grizzly rather than wait for the industrial one.

> Sometimes it isn't even a more expensivesolution, just the simple promise that a new tool is
> coming out. With so many solutions out therefor almost any woodworking challenge, unless you
> spot a tool that will be a backbone of yourconstruction technique there isn't much of a
> reason to wait on a new product.

In this case, it's not waiting for a new product, spiral cutter heads
have been around a long time.

> This is even more true when you stop and consider how many actual hours of usage said tool will
> face in a year's worth of work. To me it is almost always better to find an immediate solution and
> get to work on the product.

Often true, but in a planer/jointer, if buying one, you probably will be
using it a lot for many years. Much better to save up a few dollars and
buy one that does the job really well than buy a so-so one that you will
be stuck with for 40 years. If you are not going to use it long enough,
or often enough to justify the extra cost, you probably should re-think
buying it to begin with. Jointers and planers are not the first tool
woodworkers (particularly hobbyist) buy.

My recommendation is not to go Harbor Freight on this purchase, this is
not a throwaway purchase like a HF air stapler, and no need to sell the
wife and kids and go Festool, but at least go spiral, you will be happy
you did.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/19/2016 10:27 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/19/2016 9:07 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 2/18/2016 1:50 PM, dpb wrote:

> Mine is also (old Rockwell Delta 8") and I've used ones with both
> helical solid knives and the segmented heads as well and just don't see
> _that_ much difference, sorry. In fact, the segmented heads I've
> seen/used left telltale marks behind...easy enough to remove, sure, but...

So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
simply replaced with no touchy set up)

BTW, I've read that segmented knives leave knife marks, but I don't see
them. My long blade jointer doesn't either, although I've read they do,
and are harder to sand out than the segmented knives. I'm sure they
both do if you look with a magnifying glass, but they are of no
consequence, ie, a non issue to me.

What is an issue to me is I should have replaced my flat bladed jointer
with a spiral cutter head a long time ago. Now, I'm too old, and don't
do enough woodwork to justify it. I thought about getting a replacement
cutter head years ago but didn't, now I still think about it every time
I use it, can't justify it. They say it's not what you did that you
regret, but what you didn't do... That's what I'm talking about, and
why I say spend the extra on this.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote:
> On 2/18/2016 2:26 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Jack wrote:
>
>>> A jointer makes surfaces flat, planer makes them parallel and the
>>> required thickness and a drum sander makes them smooth. Confusing
>>> their purpose is common, but doesn't always work. Trying to get
>>> wood to a required thickness with parallel faces with a jointer or
>>> sander is fraught with disappointment.
>>
>> I've used my drum sander for that purpose (and others) with at least
>> 1000 brd.ft. of lumber. I have never been disappointed.
>
> How many brd.ft of 1 1/8" or 5/4" or 1/2" stock have you made with
> your sander? Not much I imagine.

Add 1/4, 3/8, 7/16, 3/4, 13/16, 7/8 and 15/16 and it is at least 1000.
Probably considerably more as I always buy rough stock.

> How long would it take you to sand a 2x6x8 to 1 1/8" thickness?

If it is actually 2" thick I would first rip down to 1 1/4 or a bit more.
After that, 4-5 passes...4-5 minutes.

> Also, flattening twisted stock on a drum sander or a planer is a royal
> pia, which is why jointers exist. Can you sand a hunk of black walnut
> firewood flat?

Sure, as long as it is no more than 3" thick.

> Simple with a jointer. If you don't do any of this
> stuff, maybe a jointer/planer is not needed. If you do, then a drum
> sander may be useful at some point, but it is not the right tool for
> this stuff.

You have your preference, I have mine. There is no doubt that a planer is
useful and faster but budgetary and space considerations are a
consideration. As I've said before, I would get rid of ANY other tool
before the sander.

On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
...

> So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
> zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
> cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
> jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
> your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
> simply replaced with no touchy set up)
...

A) Well eonough to satisfy me, yes...
B) Not "zero" but it's quick-enough with a gauge and done infrequently
enough as to not bother me...
C) Eh?
D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
A) when it arises...

I'm not saying there's no reason; only that I'd certainly never tell
somebody to stop on that account from going forward; particularly when
they've commented they're on a budget.

--

On 2/19/2016 7:54 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
> ...
>
>> So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
>> zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
>> cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
>> jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
>> your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
>> simply replaced with no touchy set up)

> D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
> solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
> A) when it arises...

They may last as long, but once they get dull, that's it, and
sharpening/set up is not fun. A segmented cutter can simply be rotated
so you have 4 times the usage before sharpening/replacement, and set up
is automatic. Also a nick in a blade is simple to fix just by rotating
one cutter, and again, alignment is automatic.

> I'm not saying there's no reason; only that I'd certainly never tell
> somebody to stop on that account from going forward; particularly when
> they've commented they're on a budget.

I guess it comes down to how long it would take you to save up a few
hundred bucks. My experience is it is well worth the wait, the
advantages are rather large. It's not like it cost 5-6 times as much,
it's just a bit more money. A Festool shop vac cost 5-6 times as much
as a normal shop vac, and the advantages are not really much.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 02/20/2016 7:50 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/19/2016 7:54 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/19/2016 10:59 AM, Jack wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> So you can joint against the grain, wild grain, knots, even plywood with
>>> zero tear out? You spend zero time setting your knives for a perfect
>>> cut? You don't risk going deaf with out wearing ear muffs when face
>>> jointing/planing a hard chunk of tiger maple? You don't have to sharpen
>>> your blades 4 times more often than with segmented knives, (which are
>>> simply replaced with no touchy set up)
>
>> D) No, they're also solid carbide so last at least as long being more
>> solid...I've sets of HSS that are extremely finely honed for work like
>> A) when it arises...
>
> They may last as long, but once they get dull, that's it, and
> sharpening/set up is not fun. A segmented cutter can simply be rotated
> so you have 4 times the usage before sharpening/replacement, and set up
> is automatic. Also a nick in a blade is simple to fix just by rotating
> one cutter, and again, alignment is automatic.
...

No, set up is _not_ much of an issue with a knife-setting jig. Does
your cutterhead have the back-pressure springs? If not, it can indeed
be a nuisance, but if have them to work against, it's quite a routine
exercise. I suppose it helps to have done enough to have developed both
a setup method and a little dexterity in the process over the 30+ years...

As for sharpening, I have two sets; I send the one out and use the other
but it's normally at least a year between. At the amount of work I've
been doing it's been longer than that although was getting ready to ramp
up again to do the barn windows and hopefully some other stuff this spring.

That part, to me, just is a non-issue entirely and no reason to switch.

--

On 02/20/2016 7:50 AM, Jack wrote:
...

> I guess it comes down to how long it would take you to save up a few
> hundred bucks. My experience is it is well worth the wait, the
> advantages are rather large. ...

I thought you above were rueing the fact you hadn't done so? If not,
what's the advantage other than pure hypothesis of which you speak?

I hadn't priced replacements so used Grizz...turns out they're basically
a wash for replacement as far as initial cost...the 8" head has 40
inserts that are roughly $40/10 so $40*4 = $160 per set or, dividing out
the four sides, $40/one edge. That's about the cost of their set of
straight knives. Of course, you've got 4X the cost outlay at one time
to counter that a little so there is more pain up front although one may
manage to stagger replacement such that never do buy a full new set at once.

OTOH, while the carbide solid knives were more up front, I've had these
sets for approaching 20 years and they'll outlast me with just a few
sharpenings as they're still wide enough for at least several more times
as long as they don't get deeply knicked...

Anyway, if I were in the market for a new one, I'd consider it but it
wouldn't be the primary reason for a go/no-go decision by any stretch
if, as OP notes, were on a budget and for a smaller machine to start with.

If I were back at the time I bought the PM Model 66, I'd probably be on
the same side of the fence -- I did, in fact, suffer along with an old
DeWalt RAS as the only thing for years until I could finally feel could
afford the 66 that I had lusted for for years...but I was _much_ younger
and full of plans at the time, then!!! :)

But, I don't get that's OP's position now and I'm counseling him, not
making my own decision here.

--

On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

> The same argument could be made against the purchase of the Ridgid vis a
> vis the Festool; they're far superior in many ways as well... :)

Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work about
the same.

> But, I hadn't realized the price differential had come down to that
> level; just looked up a couple. Thought was still closer to 2X that...
>
> Still I'd never tell somebody they _had_ to spend that extra $400-500 or
> the rest was a mistake.

Obviously I'm not telling anyone what they _had_ to do. I'm also not
telling them to buy an expensive planer. They can buy a cheap Grizzly
segmented helical planer for not a whole lot more than a cheap long
blade Grizzly planer. If money is not an issue, they can buy a better
Laguna, or similar spiral cutter head planer for 2x as much money. Both
tools will do the same job, and depending on your finances, and usage,
either will perform much better than a long blade planer. If you are a
hobbyist, or a small custom shop, either might work ok, if you're A huge
furniture manufacturer, then that little Laguna might look like a piece
of junk.

I don't recommend buying junk though. Harbor Freight sells a 12" planer
for under $300. That might suit some, but not me. If you need a planer
today, and only have $300 to spend, that could be your only choice I
guess, otherwise, I'd recommend against it. If you already own a decent
long blade planer or jointer, no need to sell them and buy ones with
helical segmented cutter heads, but if you did, you would _not_ be unhappy.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:
>
>> The same argument could be made against the purchase of the Ridgid vis a
>> vis the Festool; they're far superior in many ways as well... :)
>
> Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work about
> the same.

Not really they don't, no...they're two toally different class of
machines besides the premium for the

Rigid Festool
Drum Size 6 Gallons (US) 6.9 (6.3 filter bag capacity)
Peak HP 3.5 Nonsense spec
Air Watts 124
Voltage 120 120
CFM 62 137 CFM (Over double note)
Amps 5.8 2.9-10
Filter 1-Layer Standard HEPA(*)
pleated paper

(*) US DOE HEPA Definition--Must capture 99.997% of all particulates
>=0.3 microns.

Plus, the Festool has automatic switching of the associated tools
plugged into it and many other amenities/features. Just not the same
beasties at all to compare to each other.

...

--

On 02/20/2016 3:35 PM, Markem wrote:
...

> The Goretex filters for a Shopvac will give you a good approximation
> of a hepa filtered one.

Thru the filter itself, maybe; most non-HEPA-qualified vac's have quite
a lot of bypass leakage, however, which pretty much defeats the purpose...

--

On 2/20/2016 9:37 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/20/2016 7:50 AM, Jack wrote:

> As for sharpening, I have two sets; I send the one out and use the other
> but it's normally at least a year between. At the amount of work I've
> been doing it's been longer than that although was getting ready to ramp
> up again to do the barn windows and hopefully some other stuff this spring.
>
> That part, to me, just is a non-issue entirely and no reason to switch.

I hear that. I'm not recommending anyone "switch", just not to go there
in the first place. I myself have not switched my long blade jointer.
I'm certain however, if I was 40 years younger and buying my first
jointer/planer, they would have the segmented spiral cutter heads.

I also would buy a Domino or similar tool rather than an el cheapo Delta
mortise machine. I'd have to look into whether the extra 300 for the
Festool was worth it vs say a Lamello, but I know I'd not be buying a
dedicated mortiser, even though we lived many years w/o the Domino. This
is based on owning a cheap delta mortiser, and Leon's comments on the
Domino as well as watching them in use and seeing the advantages.

This is just my opinion of course. Those just starting out can take it
or leave it, it's just one guys opinion.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:

My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.

Standard 2.5" hoses fit it, along with their attachments, so my old shop
vac stuff works fine. It doesn't go on automatically when I plug a tool
into it, but I don't care there either, because all my tools are on a
dust collector system. I have no problem flicking the switch on my Long
Ranger.

My main reason for getting rid of the shop vac, which I've had for 40
years, and it still works same as it did the day I got it, was
noise.(damn things you want to break never do)

The ridged sucks harder, a plus, but mainly it is quiet enough it
doesn't bother me in the least. The old Shop Vac was the only tool I
needed ear muffs with, and that includes chainsaws and routers, although
routers are nasty noise wise. That shop vac made my ears bleed.

The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
Leon contends:-)

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

>>> The same argument could be made against the purchase of the Ridgid vis a
>>> vis the Festool; they're far superior in many ways as well... :)
>> Not really. A Festool vacuum costs 5-6 times the Ridgid, and work about
>> the same.
>
> Not really they don't, no...they're two toally different class of
> machines besides the premium for the
>
> Rigid Festool
> Drum Size 6 Gallons (US) 6.9 (6.3 filter bag capacity)
> Peak HP 3.5 Nonsense spec
> Air Watts 124
> Voltage 120 120
> CFM 62 137 CFM (Over double note)
> Amps 5.8 2.9-10
> Filter 1-Layer Standard HEPA(*)
> pleated paper
>
> (*) US DOE HEPA Definition--Must capture 99.997% of all particulates
> >=0.3 microns.
>
> Plus, the Festool has automatic switching of the associated tools
> plugged into it and many other amenities/features. Just not the same
> beasties at all to compare to each other.
>
> ...
>
> --

On 02/21/2016 12:34 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/20/2016 2:06 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/20/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 2/19/2016 11:12 AM, dpb wrote:
>
> My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.

OK, but immaterial...the comparison would show the same thing relatively.

> It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
> coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.

It's what you _don't_ see that is typically the most most dangerous from
a health standpoint.

Again, HEPA and Festool's meet a certain market; in large part driven by
the (relatively) new EPA RPP lead rules that mandate same under harsh
penalty if not complied to by those who are subject to it. Ridgid won't
cut it in that environment.

...

> The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
> well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
> spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
> owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
> Leon contends:-)

W/ <$30 oil, not likely to be any new wells popping up any time soon so
you'd best not be waiting... :)

I'm not likely to bite either as I have central dust collection for the
big stuff and really just was too old and set in my ways to get
concerned much about the little.

But, the point is that there's a very definite reason the two aren't
comparable in price and that is in what they do...and there is, of
course, at least some that is the Festool premium simply because it is
pea-green and white.

--

On 2/21/2016 11:24 PM, Leon wrote:

> Just a bit of info concerning the Lamello to the Domino. I seriously
> doubt that there is much difference in the quality of the two units.
>
> The huge difference however is what they are making cuts for, the
> biscuit or the floating tenon. IMHO the floating tenons are stronger
> and fit in a larger variety of places. While the biscuit comes in the
> FF size for face frames it is still twice as wide as a 5mm Domino which
> is approximately 3/4" wide. IIRC the FF biscuit is 1-3/16" wide and
> penetrates 1/4" on both halves.
> The 5mm Domino penetrated 1/2" on both halves and is about 3/4" wide.
>
> There is a smaller Domino tenon, 4mm, and a much larger one, 10mm, that
> the smaller Domino mortiser will cut and it penetrates about 1" on each
> half of the joint.
>
> Basically you can add floating tenons to the end of a 1" wide rail
> with no worry of it showing, not so with a plate joiner.
>
> Just saying.

All good reasons for buying the Domino I'd think. Assuming you are
right about the Lamello, I wouldn't be comfortable joining legs and
rails and such with a 1/4" biscuit depth. I don't *need* anything like
that for edge gluing table tops and such, not needed imo. Pocket joints
are fine for FF, but any where you would need/use a mortising machine, a
Domino would seem the way to go. Your experience bears that out and if
I were making my first cabinets, I'd be buying or saving up for one.
Since I'm on closer to my last cabinet, I'll just get a drool cup and
save my money for something more appropriate.


--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/21/2016 2:40 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/21/2016 12:34 PM, Jack wrote:

>> My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
>
> OK, but immaterial...the comparison would show the same thing relatively.
>
>> It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
>> coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.
>
> It's what you _don't_ see that is typically the most most dangerous from
> a health standpoint.

Yeah, I hear/read that all the time. I've done woodwork with no dust
collection or dust masks for going on 60 years. When younger, I've done
a ton of body work, sanding tons of body filler, not to mention dry wall
w/o dust masks, (usually with a smoke hanging from my lips) and painting
numerous cars and trucks with just a dust mask. If my lungs could talk
they would be mostly cursing. Not recommending anyone do that, but I'm
closing in on the end of my run and my lungs still work fine.

A side note, we bought a new sweeper a few years ago, and it has a HEPA
filter on it. Absolutely worthless imo. Just another filter to clean.
70 years of sweeping rugs w/o one and no ill effects convinces me a
lot of this stuff is salesman hype.

For me, I can use my shop vac and immediately stain/varnish with no
effects, so whatever invisible fine particles are spewing forth means
about nothing to me.

> Again, HEPA and Festool's meet a certain market; in large part driven by
> the (relatively) new EPA RPP lead rules that mandate same under harsh
> penalty if not complied to by those who are subject to it. Ridgid won't
> cut it in that environment.

The EPA can kiss my dusty little butt. Too many little people with big
government power forcing people to do things their way. I'm glad I'm
not beginning my life where these little tyrants are controlling
everything you do.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

>> The only way I'd spend all the cash on a Festool vac is if a Texas oil
>> well sprung up in my yard. Otherwise, I'd happily spend the cash on a
>> spiral cutter head, or towards purchase of a Domino, or if I already
>> owned those, maybe a ROTEX, just to see if it would make sanding fun, as
>> Leon contends:-)
>
> W/ <$30 oil, not likely to be any new wells popping up any time soon so
> you'd best not be waiting... :)
>
> I'm not likely to bite either as I have central dust collection for the
> big stuff and really just was too old and set in my ways to get
> concerned much about the little.
>
> But, the point is that there's a very definite reason the two aren't
> comparable in price and that is in what they do...and there is, of
> course, at least some that is the Festool premium simply because it is
> pea-green and white.
>
> --
>
>
>

On 02/22/2016 8:03 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2/21/2016 2:40 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 02/21/2016 12:34 PM, Jack wrote:
>
>>> My $99 Ridged is 14 gallon, not 6, and it's HP is rated at 6, not 3.5.
>>
>> OK, but immaterial...the comparison would show the same thing relatively.
>>
>>> It may not have hepa, but personally I don't care a lick, I see no dust
>>> coming out of it and it sucks plenty hard.
>>
>> It's what you _don't_ see that is typically the most most dangerous from
>> a health standpoint.
>
> Yeah, I hear/read that all the time. I've done woodwork with no dust
> collection or dust masks for going on 60 years. When younger, I've done
> a ton of body work, sanding tons of body filler, not to mention dry wall
> w/o dust masks, (usually with a smoke hanging from my lips) and painting
> numerous cars and trucks with just a dust mask. If my lungs could talk
> they would be mostly cursing. Not recommending anyone do that, but I'm
> closing in on the end of my run and my lungs still work fine.
...

What one individual gets lucky getting by with, many others get and die
early from lung cancer or other ailments...

<Other diatribes snipped for brevity...>

While I'm no fan of the RPP, that wasn't the point so much as that the
comparison drawn was to two markedly different product specifications
and target markets explains much of the significant price differential;
not that one is simply the same product as the other but over-priced.

--

On 02/22/2016 9:05 AM, Leon wrote:
...

> FWIW variable speed is important if you use the vac attached to power tools
> and especially if you attach sanders. For the Festool sanders whose pad
> does not hang over the edge of the work high suction is a problem. With
> high suction the sander is more difficult to maneuver. On the flip side
> you need high suction for saws, routers, dominos, etc.
...
> Typical Quiet HEPA certified vacs typically offer low noise so you are not
> tortured with the loud sound, automatic switching so that you only have to
> turn on the attached tool, variable speed to match sanding dust collection
> or high volume suction, ...
...

Does it automagically regulate suction level to the tool or is that
manual, Leon?

--

On 02/22/2016 9:23 AM, Leon wrote:
> dpb<[email protected]> wrote:
...

>> Does it automagically regulate suction level to the tool or is that
>> manual, Leon?
>>
...

> Suction strength is manually regulated. ...

I figured as much or would be balleyhooed feature... :)

"Inquiring minds..." :)

--

On 2/22/2016 10:18 AM, Leon wrote:
> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>> Home Depot offers a HEPA filter for the WD1450, I think it was VF5000 or
>> VF6000. There may still be a bit of blow-by, but it does seem like the
>> vacuum seals pretty well.
>> Puckdropper

> If the vac is not HEPA certified the filter is not guaranteed to prevent
> the particles that you are wanting to capture from escaping. The HEPA
> filters in my vac remain almost spotless, even after 8 years of use. The
> vast majority of the fine particles are captured by the primary disposable
> filter bag. As a result I never have to clean those final HEPA filters, or
> any filters. I take that back, about 9 months ago one of the bags broke
> and the HEPA filters did all of the work and and yo be cleaned that 1 time.

Finally a reason I'd want a Festool vac, never having to clean the
filters. For the extra $500 though, I don't mind occasionally cleaning
the filter. I usually do it each time I empty the 14 Gallon tank. My
vac is also quiet enough I never consider not using it because of the
noise, and no ear muffs needed. My 40 year old Shop Vac I hated to use
because it required ear muffs or your ears would bleed. The main thing
with the old shop vac was the high pitched scream. That is completely
gone with the Ridged, so whatever noise it makes, it's simply not a
problem at all.

The only small tool I attach a vac is my sander. The small hose to my
sander has an air port that I can open if the vac works too hard, so two
speeds isn't needed. I can't recall ever wanting to slow down a vac.

My recommendation remains spend the extra money on the spiral cutterhead
planer or jointer rather than a Festool shop vac. I guess if your prime
reason for buying a shop vac is keeping dust over 1 micron out of your
lungs, get a Festool vac, or even better, look for work in a silicon
valley clean room making computer chips or hard drives. Woodwork might
be a little too risky for you.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:

> I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
> especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino for
> panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and the ridged
> floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work better with
> alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating tenons work so
> well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what all I would use them
> for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and they certainly will, I suspect
> the plate joiners will disappear.

I wondered if anyone made Domino clone. I certainly would be looking
into getting a Domino if I were in the market. Jay Bates has a youtube
video making a cabinet and he looks like he is using a domino. He makes
pretty neat videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X0jdENSbJs

Interesting watch even if you already have a domino...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote:
> On 2/23/2016 12:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I have never used a Lamello but have heard nothing but high praises
>> especially when compared to the common brands. I do use the domino
>> for panel glue ups. Seldom are all the pieces perfectly flat and
>> the ridged floating tenons that fit more tightly than biscuits work
>> better with alignment of surfaces than biscuits IMHO. The floating
>> tenons work so well, and not just for strength, I never dreamed what
>> all I would use them for. Once clones of the Domino appear, and
>> they certainly will, I suspect the plate joiners will disappear.
>
> I wondered if anyone made Domino clone.

Lots of people are making their own, numerous videos on Youtube.

On 2/23/2016 2:11 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>
>> Finally a reason I'd want a Festool vac, never having to clean the
>> filters. For the extra $500 though, I don't mind occasionally
>> cleaning the filter. I usually do it each time I empty the 14 Gallon
>> tank. My vac is also quiet enough I never consider not using it
>> because of the noise, and no ear muffs needed. My 40 year old Shop
>> Vac I hated to use because it required ear muffs or your ears would
>> bleed. The main thing with the old shop vac was the high pitched
>> scream. That is completely gone with the Ridged, so whatever noise it
>> makes, it's simply not a problem at all.
>
> *Snip*
>
> Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags for
> the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you only have
> to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally clean, as
> removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered about but you
> don't have to clean the big filter.

I might consider that. Do you have a link to the bags you use? They
seem to be all over the place price wise. My old shop vac had only a
paper bag filter, and a sponge filter for water pickup. Is that how
these things work?

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Excellent post Leon, with a lot of great info. I'm not a dowel fan
myself, and also have the same dowel jig you have that I inherited.
Used it a few times, not accurate enough for dowels. A prime attraction
of the Domino, among many, is the joints can adjust a bit, so perfect
precision is not needed. Dowels must be absolutely perfect, something
that is incompatible with custom woodwork, imo.

On 2/24/2016 9:13 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/24/2016 7:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 12:28:21 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> IIRC Freud offered, for a short period, a compromise between a
>>> Domino an plate joiner. It looked the same except it drilled 2
>>> holes for dowels.
>>
>> You remember correctly! For some strange reason, they quit making
>> them about 4+ years ago. I don't know what happened to them as the
>> machine got some great reviews and a double dowel system certainly
>> has its strength. Oddly, it was Freud that stopped, so there must
>> have been some kind of copyright or patent infringement.
>>
>> But they are still around, and quite affordable. I have been tempted
>> for years, especially since they offer 1/4" and 3/8" sizes on the
>> bits for dowels. Even a 1/4" striated dowel properly installed has
>> quite a bit of holding power, but that 3/8" would be about as strong
>> as I would need. And of course, there is always the option to take
>> one bit out and use it as a single dowel machine.
>>
>> http://www.tritontools.com/en-AU/Model/TDJ600
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://goo.gl/OYQKUF (which is a great tool manufacturer located in
>> Germany, and all tools made there)
>>
>> The problem with the Mafell doweling machine... it even MORE
>> expensive than the Domino, and not by a little bit, either.
>>
>> No doubt thanks to you, I wouldn't consider the Mafell in light of
>> the Domino's performance.
>>
>> That Triton sure looks interesting though from time to time.
>
> I thought it was a pretty good idea but you know how things don't pan
> out as they appear? Thinking about it, and this was long after I bought
> the Domino, I considered that a large percentage of my mortises are in
> the end of a narrow piece of wood. If the dowels are too far apart you
> can only drill one hole and then you give up the strength of two dowels
> which would also prevent the joint from rotating, like it would with
> only one dowel. Alternatively you could drill one hole and simply move
> the tool over and drill another hole closer. BUT that presents a fit
> problem, you must drill the mating holes exactly the same distance apart
> on the mating side of the joint.
>
> And on top of that even if you use both bits to drill pairs of holes,
> alignment of mating holes is going to become an issue with the next set
> of holes and each after that. Aligning to a pencil mark is not going to
> be accurate enough with precise fitting dowels. This is OK with a plate
> joiner as the biscuit can slip back and forth a slight bit.
>
>
> The Domino has a solution which I use on every one of my mating
> mortises. I cut one side as an exact fit mortice to fit the domino
> tenon and the opposite side mortice is cut slightly elongated, wiggle
> room. The bit simply swings slightly wider left and right when cutting
> on that setting. IIRC the smallest setting for an elongated mortice is
> about 3/16" wider than an exact fit. FWIW I never mate exact fit
> mortises together. The Domino has an indexing system to insure exact
> placement however the Festool reps explained that this is accurate as
> long as the internal adjustment on the side to side movement of the bit
> remains dead center. There is an eccentric adjustment, to compensate,
> on one of the indexing pins but I never use it.
>
> Knowing that, I decided to not bother with exact fit mortices holes on
> both sides. This very reason may be why some Domino owners do not use
> their machines as much as I do. I don't expect the tool to always
> perform precisely as designed, due to normal wear or what ever, so I get
> to use it ever where I want with out alignment problems 10,000+ mortises
> later. Is that clear at a all? LOL
>
>>
>> Heck, I remember when dowel joints were considered great woodworking
>> and a sign of craftsmanship. When I learned to lay up panels, we
>> always did a few dowels per joint. I remember doing doweled miter
>> joints on rail/stile construction, too. Looks pretty old fashioned,
>> now...
>>
>
>>
> Yeah! I have one of those doweling jigs around here somewhere, I think.
> You know the one with a turret and probably sitting beside that one
> the self centering one. ;~)
>
> I experienced similar problems with both that I mentioned above.
>
>


--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Puckdropper wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 2/23/2016 2:11 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>
>>> Would you spend an extra $5? That's about what generic filter bags
>>> for the WD1450 run. It keeps that filter nice and clean, and you
>>> only have to mess with them once in a while. They're not totally
>>> clean, as removing the bag leaves about 1/2 cup of dust scattered
>>> about but you don't have to clean the big filter.
>>
>> I might consider that. Do you have a link to the bags you use? They
>> seem to be all over the place price wise. My old shop vac had only a
>> paper bag filter, and a sponge filter for water pickup. Is that how
>> these things work?
>>
>
> These went up in price since I ordered... um I guess it was 3 years
> ago. Still, at $6.50 a bag it's still not bad.
>
> http://www.vacuumbags.com/rihiefwdmian.html

I'd say that depends on what you are using them for. I pretty much stopped
using my canister vac because the corrugated paper filter clogs up almoat
immediately if you are sucking fine dust. The ones like you linked work
well but my drum sander fills them in a very short time, at least one, maybe
two per hour. Shame they can't be (easily) emptied and reused. Since they
can't, I'll stick with my dust collector.

On 2/14/2016 11:03 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/14/2016 10:57 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> ...
>
>> I'm glad I have the drum sander :)
>
> They're nice, indeed...in Lynchburg had access to a large (30")
> dual-drum unit but never did invest in one of the home-shop Performax or
> similar...would be nice, however, granted...
>
> But, I get by... :)
>
> --
>
>


I think "if" I replaced mine I might look at the SuperMax, IIRC.
IIRC Jet bought Performax several years ago, just after I bought my
Performax, and sell it under the Jet and Powermatic name now. IIRC the
Jet was identical except for the name to my Performax

http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/16-32-plus-20-amp-service-with-608003-stand/629004K

And the prettied up Performax. IIRC the insides are pretty much like
the Jet. ALTHOUGH Jet does offer the oscillating version too.



http://www.powermatic.com/us/en/p/pm2244-drum-sander-1-3-4hp-115v/1792244

http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/22-44-oscillating-drum-sander-kit-with-closed-stand/659006K

The SuperMax has 2 drums on some models

http://www.supermaxtools.com/products/wood/


As I commented in a previous post, when they are available your find
more uses. I forgot to mention in another post that I used it to tweak
the fit of small short/shallow drawers by sanding the top edges and
bottom edges on the drum sander.

Anyway.........

On 2/14/2016 3:22 PM, Dan Coby wrote:
> On 2/13/2016 8:13 AM, HerHusband wrote:
>> I need to buy a jointer, and haven't had much luck finding a used one.
>>
>> So, I've been looking at the budget 6" jointers by Ridgid and Grizzly, in
>> the sub $600 range. Grizzly's new G0813/814 jointers aren't in stock yet,
>> and the shipping costs would make it more expensive. I could have the
>> Ridgid shipped to my local store for free, making it a bit cheaper.
>>
>> Price aside, which would be the better jointer? Are there other brands in
>> that price range I should consider?
>>
>> I don't have the space or the money for a larger 8" jointer.
>
> I will chime in here since I have the Ridgid jointer.
>
> In general, I am very happy with mine. It runs and cuts smoothly. The
> bed is long enough that you can really create a straight edge on a
> board. The bed height and the fence position adjustment are simple and
> straight forward. It came out of the box with the infeed and outfeed
> tables parallel. The tables are flat. (There is a minor 0.002 inch dip
> on one far corner of the infeed table but that is definitely not a
> problem since there is plenty of flat table before you get to the cutter
> head.)
>
> My only complaint is that the adjustment for the tilt of the fence seems
> a little strange to me. (This is my first and only jointer so I do not
> have any other data points for comparison.) The tilt adjustment
> articulates at a couple of points so that the fence can move up and down
> while adjusting the tilt. Since I wanted a small gap between the fence
> and the table tops, I used a piece of card stock to position the fence
> vertically while adjusting the tilt. I set it to 90 degrees when I first
> got the jointer and I have not changed it since.
>
> I bought the jointer is 2009. At that time it was listed at $428. I
> decided to buy it when Home Depot was having a 1/2 price sale. (I think
> that the reason for the sale was that this is when Home Deopt decided to
> no longer stock the jointers in the store.) I thought that $214 was a
> fair price. When I got to the store, the price that they charged me was
> $107 plus tax. I asked and they checked and that was the price that they
> had in their computer. The sales guy asked me if I wanted the second
> unit that they had in stock. I did not have room for a second unit and
> it was a good price but I declined.
>
> Dan
>

Wholly crap, that's a great price.
No wonder they are hurting.. They halved, their half price..... :-O
That's your gain.

I would have bought the second one, come back and given it to a friend
for that price.


--
Jeff

On 2/13/2016 10:17 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> Before you can join an edge, you must have a flat face. I can - and
>> do - get that with my drum sander.
>
> OK, I'm a little confused here - how is that different from
> running a board thru a planer? Seems like it would make it
> smooth but not flat.
>
> John
>


Obviously confused. Did he mention anything about a planer? I don't
believe that he said any thing about a drum sander being better suited
than a planer. He simply said, I can and do get a flat face with his
drum sander.

But to answer your question, the drum sander pretty much will do what a
planer will do except at a much slower pace. Given that, a rum sander
has many advantages over a planer.