To all,
I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their X-
Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
shopping list includes:
1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
3) 8" Jointer
4) 13"+ Planar
5) Drill Press
6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
7) Miter Saw
So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
measure):
1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
2) Middle = Delta, General
3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
My thanks,
Bob H
In article <[email protected]>, CW
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Now you've done it, You just blew your credibility. Car dealers are right up
> there with lawyers. :)
*UP* there?
"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
You have been given good and bad advice as far as I'm concerned.
Good:
Morris: "Consider buying really good used equipment for what you consider
your
"core" operations - and buy tools only as you need them."
Swingman: "Start with a project, buy the best you can afford to get it done
as you need
it, and add/upgrade from there as your budget allows." and "certainly think
Jet is equal to Delta in most offerings today."
Jim Stuyck: "I think you'll find that you'll need things NOT on your list
(sanders, battery powered
drill, Bessey K-clamps, for some examples) that are NECESSARY"
Bad: "Get rid of at least two car payments and you will have more money for
your shop. Jeez I am ashamed to have two car payments."
This is terrible advise. As a car dealer I believe everyone should have
three or four car/truck payments.
My advise, along with the good above is too avoid the cheap junk. If you
can't afford quality tools, wait and save (After making your car payments of
course!)
A bandsaw, jointer and planer will save you money in the long run. You will
be able to buy lumber cheaper and be able to create more unique pieces while
not being trapped in the 3/4" for everything mind set.
Dave
John Doe wrote:
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
Bob,
Buy used. There is a glut of very fine equipment to be had at 1/2 the
price of new.
I'll just agree with several other responders - pick a project or 2 to
start, and buy good-quality tools as you need them. You'll get a
better idea what you need as you go, and if you have a certain budget
to start with, you'll find a bunch of little things you need that
aren't on your list like clamps, hand tools, measuring tools, dust
collection + accessories, glue, finish, wood, more books, etc.
Also, like many others have said, keep an eye out for used stuff at
auctions, garage sales, craigslist, ebay (bid with caution and
restraint), etc.
One of my first priorities would be to look for a real hardwood dealer
(not a borg or local hardware store). Unless you're starting with
really large projects, you can get your lumber S2S or S4S at moderate
additional cost - even at $.50/bd ft, it would take a lot of wood to
pay for a brand new high-end jointer+planer.
Given all that, I'll toss in my list of handy and multi-purpose tools I
probably use most: Dewalt Router (1/2 shank, vari speed, plunge + fixed
base) and homemade router table, cheap 10" bandsaw, really old but nice
Atlas drill press, Bosch jigsaw, old Skil handheld circ saw, Steve
Knight hand planes, and Dewalt handheld drill. I think the jigsaw and
bandsaw are the only things I paid list price for - the other stuff was
inherited from relatives or bought cheap through Amazon
reconditioned/ebay, etc. I don't have room for a TS right now, but a
handheld circ saw can be used quite accurately for cutting sheet goods
and crosscutting, if you get/make appropriate jigs.
Other less-major tools that have been unexpectedly handy are a
"Preppin' Weapon" sanding block, 4" graduated engineer's square, a
Duluth Trading shop apron, a 10' tape measure, and of course a
selection of clamps.
Good luck and have fun - try not to jump too far down the slippery
slope all at once,
Andy
John Doe wrote:
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
One thing you MUST apply to any purchase is a lot of research and
thought. If space is at all limited then think about the capabilities
of each power tool you buy. Examples: a decent router with table can
also double as a joitner thereby removing the need for the dedicated
jointer; a drill press will accommodate a full set of drum sanding
bits and lessen the need for a drum sander or a belt/disc sander.
Again, one thing I would recommend to any wrecker is some kind of dust
extraction system, even if its only a wet/dry vac hooked up to the
tool. You will never regret a (relatively) dust-free workspace.
FoggyTown
> "Teamcasa"
>> This is terrible advise. As a car dealer I believe everyone should have
>> three or four car/truck payments.
>
>
"CW"
> Now you've done it, You just blew your credibility. Car dealers are right
> up
> there with lawyers. :)
>
Not all car dealers are bad, same is true for lawyers! (My partner is a
lawyer and reads this group once and a while!)
Dave
"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With all due respect, you sound over-eager. Look for used cast iron
> tooling on eBay or at local garage sales and put the money you'll save
> into an extra mortgage payment every year so that when you retire
Yeah, right. Have you priced shipping cast iron tools? I find the bargains
are always 1000 miles away from where I live and the shipping wipes out the
bargain price - not to mention lack of warranty, dealer service, etc. I've
NEVER seen a garage sale that had good cast iron tools for sale. I think
they are right there with all the other urban legends.
People who purchase good deals in used stationary equipment are lucky and do
not live where I live.
Bob
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> FOr the tables, bookshelves, etc you mention, just
> get a decent tablesaw and get started.
I followed this advice to a T 3 years ago. I purchased a nice table saw and
made those wonderful precision cuts and thought I was in heaven. You should
have seen the look on my face when I tried to assemble my work and
discovered that a 6" c clamp won't hold everything! I laugh at the concept
that it only takes a few tools to get started doing wood working. Aside
from your average birdhouse, doing anything of any size is going to require
more bits and pieces than one ever imagined. Layout, clamping, and
sharpening things come to mind. Oh yeah, then there is dust collection.
I've collected a list of one-liner sage advice that makes me laugh.
"Your best tool is your brain"
"Go with a few quality hand tools"
"Pick your project and then buy the tools to do it"
"build a workbench first" (count the absolute minimal number of tools
required to do this - surprise!)
The fact is that, no matter what path you choose or what advice you follow,
you will spend more money on this avocation than you ever conceived. If you
choose to spend money to save time, you will sink a fortune into it.
Bob
John Doe wrote:
> I've always wanted to do some wood working...
I'm probably in a similar situation. I've had some home-reno type tools
for a while, and am now finally in a place where I can set up a small shop.
My first suggestion is to start with a specific project, then buy the
tools that you need to build that project.
> My initial shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
For the first few years I used a circular saw and a straight edge for
sheet goods. If you have a very good saw and blade, you might not need
the router for final trimming.
I then upgraded to a very old 9" Rockwell contractor's saw, which I used
for a couple years. Finally this past year I got a bonus at work and
spent it on a General International cabinet saw.
You will want outfeed support. For cutting sheet goods on the table saw
(without pre-cutting into manageable chunks with the circular saw) you
need side extension and maybe an infeed support as well. This takes a
*lot* of space.
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
Still don't have one myself. A jigsaw will do some of what a bandsaw
can do, but of course can't resaw.
> 3) 8" Jointer
Don't have one yet. A friend has a 6" one.
> 4) 13"+ Planar
Same friend as above has a 12" lunchbox planer.
> 5) Drill Press
Got a cheap (but decent) one last year when it went on sale. Made do
with a hand drill until that point.
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
I have a single router with two bases, one of which drops into the
table. Bought a cheap set of bits at a wood show, and buy good bits as
needed.
> 7) Miter Saw
Have a 10" single bevel non-slider. Works for most stuff I need.
Anything bigger goes on the crosscut sled on the table saw. Anything
too large for the sled (which has 14" capacity) gets cut with the
straightedge and circular saw.
Chris
On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 21:35:47 -0500, John Doe <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Now, as to the questions (asked of me) and the reason for my original
>post. Yes, it's going to be a half-of-the-two-car-garage workshop. I
>have two walls in the garage (with cars in) that are 4 feet deep by 25
>feet long, plenty of space to store tools against the wall. Add to that
>a section in the garage of about 20'x12' that stores nothing today. I
>figure I can store a full table saw (with in and outfeed tables) there
>easily.
Well, now that you've filled in the story a little- if you've got a
little nest egg you can tap, I'd go for the best cabinet saw you can
get, a good compound miter saw with a stand, a good router (and make
your own table) a drill press, 6-8 bar clamps, a good pile of smaller
clamps, and a standard array of carpenter's tools. You will have to
buy more stuff than that, but those are the tools that are tough to
work around (others may disagree) I like Delta for the stationary
tools, myself- but stay away from the "Shopmaster" line, they are
garbage. If they say "Industrial", they're pretty nice. Porter-cable
makes a nice line of routers, variable speed is good if you want to
make raised panel cabinet doors.
Basic rule of thumb is that you tend to do okay if you stick with the
brand names. If you start getting the store brand or some knockoff,
it's a crapshoot- sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
>I also have a 7.5' tall 30'x24' crawlspace that shares a wall next to the
>garage (the town planning board nixed the idea of taking out 1.5' of dirt
>and pouring a pad in there)that will be perfect to house a compressor and
>vacuum system to be piped into the shop where needed.
Do you need a compressor? Probably not- but they are nice to have.
Might be worth waiting until you get the rest of your toys, though.
>My first project(s) planned are cabinets for the garage, converting a
>basement into a home theater and probably (with some help from a general
>contractor) finishing off a 800SF walk up attic to turn it into a library
>(in following this newsgroup, I'm sure with some experience over time
><and a lot of questions asked here> I can make cabinets better and
>cheaper than at the BORG). With those under my belt, I may even tackle
>the kitchen and replace the cabinets there.
Depends on what you're going for- but with all those cabinets to make,
it might not be a bad idea to get yourself a pocket hole jig. Come to
think of it, the compressor is looking like a better idea here too- a
pin nailer and an HVLP gun got a long way towards making your life
easier with the projects you've got in mind. If you were just making
jewelry boxes or furniture, it's not that important.
>And finally, in closing, I've been the old classified adds search and
>most of the used tools I've looked at were either to worn out or to close
>to new prices for me to bother. I'm not an expert (I freely admit that)
>and my biggest fear is buying a lemon and not even having a warranty to
>fall back on. So, for the money I have to spend I can outfit (with a
>budget in reserve for all the 'other stuff' such as blades, sanders,
>chisels, router bits, Etc.) a good 'full' shop using Grizzly or almost
>all of my wish list using one of the more expensive lines (Delta,
>Powermatic, Etc.).
Grizzly really isn't a bad line of tools, and you save a lot of $$$.
As noted above, I like Delta, but Jet, Powermatic, General, and
Yates-American have their fans as well.
>To all of you that have replied my thanks, you've all given me some great
>advice (well, I'll skip the one about always having four car payments,
>but with my last car being 20 years old and two kids that travel 80 miles
>a day to college, it was necessary) and a lot to think upon before I pull
>the trigger and decide to jump in with both feet, or ease into the pool.
Ease in. Put all that money aside, and get the tools one at a time
for a little while after you get a saw or two and a drill press. Two
good reasons for this you might not have considered- first is that you
have to assemble most of your tools. My table saw took 3 hours to put
together and adjust, and required a fair amount of heavy lifting.
Doing that several times in a row in one sitting seems like a bit much
in my book. Second- you need to learn how to use your new tools.
Jumping around on 6 or 8 new machines like a kid in a candy store may
sound like (and even be) a lot of fun, but it may be more to keep
track of than you bargined for, and it's worthwhile to spend some
quality time with each new tool as it comes into the shop not just for
safety reasons, but also because it gives you a chance to explore all
the features and operations you can perform with that tool.
Anyhow- good luck, and enjoy your new hobby.
"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college,
When you've paid off your obligations:
Take your estimated active life expectancy and subtract your present age. If
you have at least 5 years or more left buy the most expensive and best tools
you can buy.
1. They will last you the rest of your life to enjoy them.
2. Your kids (if interested) would last those tools the rest of their lives.
3. When they pass the stuff on to you they will be forever grateful that
they didn't buy you junk!
foggytown <[email protected]> wrote:
> If space is at all limited then think about the capabilities of each
> power tool you buy. Examples: a decent router with table can also
> double as a joitner thereby removing the need for the dedicated
> jointer; a drill press will accommodate a full set of drum sanding
> bits and lessen the need for a drum sander or a belt/disc sander.
I've been following that path recently. :)
Let me add to that list of exmaples and follow-up with a couple of
tips . . .
Get one of those table saw sanding discs[1][2] and two pieces of
adhesive sand paper. I have the one from one Woodcraft. It cost
me about $26 total (including the sand paper).
For those of you out there that have these devices and already know
this, you're probably going to be thinking to yourselves, "Duh,
that's obvious!". But for me, it was one of those eureka moments
that only occured to me *after* I got the stuff home and I was
getting ready to try it out. :) Here's the tips:
1) You can put the adhesive sand paper on *both* sides of the
disc! I put a 60 grit piece on one side and 120 grit on the other.
In this way I could rough shape things with the 60G side, and then
flip it over and smooth it out. This is why you should get two
pieces of adhesive sand paper. :)
2) Given the costs of these discs, if you need additional grit
options, just buy another disc and two more pieces of adhesive
paper. No need to pull the paper off the disc, just change or flip
the disc over. So for about $52 you can have two discs and four
different grit options.
[1]: http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=1809
[2]: http://www.freudtools.com/woodworkers/rep/sawblades/Accessories/html/Accessories_1.html
On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 19:40:08 -0400, "Lightning" <[email protected]> wrote:
>OK, several posts state something along the lines of "Buy used - there is a
>glut available." I've been looking for some good used equipment and have had
>very little luck.
>
>Any suggestions on the best places to find good used equipment?
>
>
My experience has been that you have to work at it, and be very, very patient to get what you want.
I've found that there are very few people out there shouting to the heavens for someone to come buy
their pristine, and often well loved, tools at filthy cheap prices. Word of mouth is about the only
way you find these things, and you have to work to get the word out you are looking. The only piece
of hardware I own that I purchased new is my Delta benchtop drill press and a 1980 Penny's TS that
was replaced on Sunday. All other major hardware is inherited or purchased used.
Over the last couple of years I have picked up a used Jet 14" BS with mobile base, blades and
variable belt speed option. It was, and is, immaculate except for one kinked blade that came with
it. I picked up the height extension from someone who never installed his. I also picked up a Jet
lathe with mobile base, extra faceplates, Nova chuck, a dozen or so tools and some nice wood for not
much more than the BS. This was also in extremely good condition.
This past Sunday afternoon my older son and I unloaded a Jet cabinet saw into the shop. It came
with mobile base, router lift, router fence, blades, etc. It is not immaculate. There are three
BB-sized dings in the extension table and a couple chips on the laminate edges. I can live with
abuse like this. My ability to be patient to find what I wanted was due in a major part to the fact
that I am upgrading tools, and not looking for a first tool. I would have paid more, or been
satisfied with poorer maintenance if I really needed a TS and did not already own one.
None of these purchases qualify as gloats. The sellers were happy, and so was the buyer. I only
dikkered on one of the deals, the others I paid the asking price. I ended up paying about half
retail, which I think is reasonable for good equipment in good condition. The extras that came with
each purchase were the cream on top.
I spent a lot of time looking for these tools. I posted some "Wanted to Buy" notices at the local
WW club meetings, I checked second hand and used tool/equipment/junk shops. I talked to people in
the local woodworking and hardware stores. I made sure many of my friends, acquaintances and
co-workers knew I was looking to upgrade my equipment. I followed up on posts here on the Wreck, on
some of the *.forsale newsgroups on Usenet, craigslist, the weekly local "for sale" advertizement
publications, newspaper ads, etc.
I found plenty of tools for sale, eliminated almost all those that weren't of the caliber I wanted
with just a phone call or email for more information, and later passed on one band saw and several
table/cabinet saws because of (what I perceived as) neglect or inability to agree on price. But I
spent dozens of hours searching for tools in the condition I wanted over the last couple of years.
I am surprised that I ended up with so many Jet brand tools though. The BS and lathe are nice
pieces of hardware. Haven't fired up the CS yet.
There were some side benefits to all this looking, besides making a few new friends and meeting some
colorful characters. I picked up about 30 old wood-bodied planes from one guy who had a TS for
sale. Didn't get the TS. I was given a 24" Rockwell jig saw that was going to be scrapped since it
hadn't been used in years. It works fine after a thorough cleaning. I now have a pretty good
starter collection of Stanley #11's and a few other metal planes I'm still trying to figure out how
to use and two separate boxes of pen turning supplies for $15 and $25. SWMBO has started to give me
"The Look" (tm) when she sees me pull into the drive with any old beat up looking cardboard box in
the truck. As I write this I just realized that I have yet to come across a deal on wood like I
read about here on the wreck. Nobody has offered me a single board yet at a bargain price. Gotta
work on that.
Well maintained, good quality tools are out there. All it takes is some patience and effort to go
find them. If you need it NOW, you're in a world of hurt. Dumb luck is your only hope. If you can
wait 6 months or more, there is some awfully good hardware out there at a reasonable price.
My $1/50.
Regards,
Roy
Is this for real? Not counting hand held tools, you can surely get
into hobby woodworking in a "serious" way without buying all that
equipment at once. FOr the tables, bookshelves, etc you mention, just
get a decent tablesaw and get started. The rest of the stuff you can
get as you gain experience enough to decide what you really need and
want. Most people, if they waited til they could buy a jointer,
planer, bandsaw, etc til they started, would never GET started.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
Up is relative. There's always something lower.
"Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote in message
news:030720061824105254%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca...
> In article <[email protected]>, CW
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Now you've done it, You just blew your credibility. Car dealers are
right up
> > there with lawyers. :)
>
> *UP* there?
You can find great stuff used.
If you can lower your sights a bit, you can really do it cheaply.
I have two old iron Craftsman TS and they both work fine. With big tables,
they will do anything you need.
Their real shortcoming is their fences. I use one for ripping and I measure
the fence location every time and push it against the table to make sure it
squares up. That done, it's fine.
The other TS I use for crosscutting and never put the fence on it, so it's
fine. I should build a sled, but the miter gauge with a wood extension has
been fine for building a whole kitchen and lots of cabinets.
I have a C'man RAS. It works well. I have an eight foot table, so it's
much better than a TS for ripping.
I use an eight foot by 0ne foot piece of ply as a sled to carry my rough
boards for straightening...safer and easier than doing it on the TS. You
can buy all these tools for under $200 each, one TS was $75. All are far
superior to any of the really cheap new tools. A $700 contractor saw would
be as good, maybe a little better but not necessarily. If you really want
to stay cheap, why bother with the cabinet saw?
You can also find older C'man and Delta drill presses and bandsaws. They
are as good or better than the new ones and cost much less.
With all the money you save on big buck iron, you can get a nice PC router
and maybe a small shaper. You'll love the shaper for raised panels! Rails
and stiles are OK with a router, but there's nothing like the whine of a
5.5" panel raiser going through oak in one easy pass! And, you'll have
plenty left for some nice chisels, clamps, and other odds and ends.
I have a PC router kit, but also several garage sale routers. I like having
several cheap ones, so I can leave the bits I use the most set up and ready
to go when needed. I never plan a work sequence, so I'm frequently going
from one operaton to another and then back.
The 12" miter saws are really large. You may want to stay smaller if you
don't expect to do framing. My Bosch is so heavy it's hard for my 65 yr old
body to carry very far. Of course with a RAS and CMS, you hardly need the
TS.
I have a C'man jointer that is perfectly fine, but pretty short. If you
expect to straighten anything over about three feet, you'll want a long bed,
as long as you can afford. As far as I'm concerned, the RAS is much better
for straightening long stock. Once it's straight, the jointer can smooth
the edge, but a good sawblade really is all you usually need.
The 13" planers are great if you don't work them too hard, but there's
nothing like the 15" heavy ones for really getting after rough lumber! They
make a hell of a noise, but really work...lots of power.
There's a company in Charlotte, NC, that sells their own brand of Chiwan
tools for quite a bit less than the big names. I have their 15" planer and
it's fine. They tell me their tablesaws are comparable to any of the
contractor or cabinet saws and I expect it's true. Their planer obviously
comes from one of the big factories...looks just like a Delta! They say
they have their own specs and quality control at the plants and I believe
them. Look up Leneave Machinery and ask for Greg Leneave. I think he is a
straight shooter. He claims to have good freight rates too.
So there you go. I'll be blasted by the big spenders, but it's fun to get
good tools used and learn to make the best of them. Yes, great tools make
things easier, but they do not come with talent or insight, which make up at
least 80% of your results. Just look at some 200 year old furniture and
you'll see what I mean! I think it's best to actually start something with
your basic tools and get the small stuff as needs arise.
Let us know what you do,
Wilson
"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
Bob,
You might want to get one of these?
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/tls/176624462.html
At $3800.00 it is more than I like to spend on a car but it is nice :-)
Craig
www.vintagetrailersforsale.com
"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
John Doe (in [email protected]) said:
| I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables,
| cabinets, home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college,
| four car payments and a mortgage, money is not a readily available
| item.
Consider buying really good used equipment for what you consider your
"core" operations - and buy tools only as you need them.
I'd suggest a good solid workbench for your first project - and plan
to someday replace it with an improved version. I'd guess that in that
first project you'll learn enough to make good/better decisions about
subsequent tool purchases.
Accumulate "help" resources: your dad, an uncle, brother-in-law, work
associate - anyone you know who enjoys woodworking and who might be
willing to share experience with you. These people can help you avoid
mistakes in nearly everything you tackle - including tool selection.
Plan to use some part of what you spend for some good wood. It sounds
painfully obvious; but without it, you won't get much satisfaction
from even the best of tools. :-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
"John Doe" wrote in message
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
Start with a project, buy the best you can afford to get it done as you need
it, and add/upgrade from there as your budget allows.
The trim carpenters who work for me, and who build everything from shelves,
the built-in's, to the stairs in a new home, unload just the following items
from the van every morning:
Contractor's table saw
Miter saw
Router
Circle saw
Brad/finish nailer/compressor combo
With the above, and a modicum of skill, they do an entire house worth of the
items mentioned in your first sentence.
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
I think you will find the line between most of the above has been blurred
considerably since the introduction of price point engineering and "made in
chinwan".
Although I don't own any of their tools, I don't consider Grizzly as
necessarily "low end" in this day and age, and, from what I've seen on the
show room floors, certainly think Jet is equal to Delta in most offerings
today.
And, almost without exception, there are a few brand specific items that are
considered "best bang for buck" by the folks who use them on a daily basis,
and they are very often not the most expensive item, or fall within the
perceived numerical scale on your list (the $14.95 on sale Harbor Freight 18
ga brad nailer, or the Ridgid 13" planer, come to mind).
The key to finding these 'best values' is simply to ask the right questions
to the right folks ... and you've made a good start on that.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/21/06
So, when did he say anything about going into business? The word hobby that
he used told me otherwise.
"Phil-in-MI" <NO Spam & [email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You don't have sanders, finishing spay guns, compressor, or any fans,
vents,
> or such on your list. I presume this is just an oversight for posting to
> this NG.
>
> Just remember one advise from FWW -- "Beginners focus on making wooden
> things, after a year or so, everyone focuses on making customers." No
mater
> how well built, the finish and how the whole projects looks is what sells.
>
> You will be selling items that cost way more than Wal-Mart. The buyer
wants
> to feel they are getting something for their money, even if it just
bragging
> rights to 'hand-craftsmanship.' The more 'intangibles' you can offer to a
> customer, the easier the sell.
>
> Phil
>
> "John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > To all,
> >
> > I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables,
cabinets,
> > home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car
payments
> > and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
> >
> > I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> > X-
> > Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> > much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> > cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> > shopping list includes:
> >
> > 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> > 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> > 3) 8" Jointer
> > 4) 13"+ Planar
> > 5) Drill Press
> > 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> > 7) Miter Saw
> >
> > So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> > hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with
a
> > little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as
far
> > as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> > you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> > measure):
> >
> > 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> > 2) Middle = Delta, General
> > 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
> >
> > Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from
the
> > low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
> >
> > My thanks,
> >
> > Bob H
>
Patience makes for good luck. I would not (and do not) pay to ship cast
iron from Oklahoma to the East Coast either. And as I have relatives in
roughly a 100 mile radius of where I live, I frequently arrange to pick
items up and make a family outing of the remainder of the day -- that
way the gas money is not fully counted against the purchase price of the
tool. Sure, it's an excuse. But it works for me.
J.
Bob wrote:
> Yeah, right. Have you priced shipping cast iron tools? I find the bargains
> are always 1000 miles away from where I live and the shipping wipes out the
> bargain price - not to mention lack of warranty, dealer service, etc. I've
> NEVER seen a garage sale that had good cast iron tools for sale. I think
> they are right there with all the other urban legends.
>
> People who purchase good deals in used stationary equipment are lucky and do
> not live where I live.
>
> Bob
>
>
Now you've done it, You just blew your credibility. Car dealers are right up
there with lawyers. :)
"Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This is terrible advise. As a car dealer I believe everyone should have
> three or four car/truck payments.
Router table is probably the worst way of jointing boards. It can not face
joint, a far more needed application than edge jointing. They are generally
far to small to be very useful on edges. Assuming a good tablesaw is at
hand, edge jointing on a router table is of no use, the tablesaw can do it
better. As for face jointing, a hand plane will do that and much more.
"foggytown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Examples: a decent router with table can
> also double as a joitner thereby removing the need for the dedicated
> jointer;
$30K on tools 'n stuff? That's some "hobby." That's what I attempted to
point out to the OP who alleges that he wants to start out "on the
cheap" but his punch list of tools 'n stuff reads like a professional
cabinet shop's inventory.
Bully for you, though!
J.
Prometheus wrote:
> You've got that right, Bob. I just add a little at a time, but I must
> have over $30,000 into my little shop at this point
"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
Here is a similar question to the rec.brainsurgeon group that I posted to.
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (the FDA has me on their X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Hospital (for doing operations)
> 2) Band Saw (for immediate progression into limb removal)
I am poking fun at you a little bit here. It really sounds like you are a
true beginner at this and with that in mind no answer is going to be right
for you. Starting off with the suggestion of which Cabinet saw to buy,
sheet goods capable you are clearly uneducated enough to even consider
trying to put together a list of all the tools you need or want. A cabinet
saw is not needed to cut up sheet goods. A cabinet saw is not for building
cabinets from sheet goods. A cabinet saw is a saw that sets on its own
cabinet. You can easily cut sheet goods with a contractors TS.
I will say that you are on the right track in considering the TS as you
first purchase as probably 98% of all wood workers will end up with a TS.
From there, which ever direction you go in you wood working adventure will
dictate what tool comes next. Buy your tools as you have a need and buy the
best that you can afford.
Get rid of at least two car payments and you will have more money for your
shop. Jeez I am ashamed to have two car payments.
my .02
Craig
www.vintagetrailersforsale.com
"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
I keep hearing that too. Hearing, not seeing. Most all my stuff is new,
otherwise, I wouldn't have anything.
"Lightning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK, several posts state something along the lines of "Buy used - there is
a
> glut available." I've been looking for some good used equipment and have
had
> very little luck.
>
> Any suggestions on the best places to find good used equipment?
>
Not all sharks will eat you either but I still won't swim with them.
"Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Not all car dealers are bad, same is true for lawyers! (My partner is a
> lawyer and reads this group once and a while!)
>
> Dave
>
>
John Doe <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables,
> cabinets, home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four
> car payments and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> X- Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've
> pretty much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby,
> but the cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My
> initial shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with
> a little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as
> far as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality
> viewpoint you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like
> cost as a measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from
> the low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
>
All things considered I would get a unisaw, a router, a router table, a
really nice corded 3/8 drill and start there. Think Milwaukee when
looking for a drill. A nice jig (sabre) saw is essential. Again think
about Milwaukee.
A miter saw is nice if your are a trim carpenter but never saw the point if
you have a good table saw.
Planer? I would wait. Dimensioned lumber is just too easy to buy.
Drill press? That is the single most used machine in my shop. I am
thinking about buying a second drill press.
Jointer? I don't have one. The table saw does a pretty good job all by
itself. If I want something dead accurate, I use a known good straight
edge and a flush trimming bit on the router.
See where you hobby leads you. You might get a little crazy and decide
that wood turning is your thing and you need a lathe.
One thing you forgot was a small compressor and some nailers. It is really
nice to be able to drive a brad or finishing nail with the squeeze of a
trigger.
I am not sure what I am doing with the band saw. I hardly use it but it
comes in handy for those oddball cuts one needs every now and then.
Don't forget to save some money for accessories like fences, mitre gauges,
mobile bases, dust collection etc.
"Lightning" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> OK, several posts state something along the lines of "Buy used - there
> is a glut available." I've been looking for some good used equipment
> and have had very little luck.
>
> Any suggestions on the best places to find good used equipment?
>
I belong to the local woodworkers' club, and get emails offering used
equipment several times per week. Not everything is 'top-of-the-market',
but the pricing is right, usually. Folks are often coming in, going out,
changing specialties and upgrading gear.
There are maybe 350 to 400 folks on the email list.
Several of our folks hang out at owwm. I got a nicely rebuilt Delta 8"
jointer from the mid-50's at a very reasonable price last year, so he could
start on some new projects.
craigslist.org often has stuff, if they are active in your area.
Just don't slide down the fancy old handtool slippery slope...
Patriarch
To all,
My thanks for the many and varied advice. To give a little bit more
information (and thanks for all who have replied); this is truly going to
be in the 'hobby' category. I'm within eight years of retirement and
would love to start something I've always wanted to do before I get to
that fateful day and walk out of work going "ok, now what am I going to
do?".
Part of the reason I've waited this long is work, raising children and
making sure that my family never wanted for anything (yeah, I know,
there's one cliche for the books). Now, as to why woodworking, I've
spent my entire life (up to now), in the electronics/computer/IT field.
But there's always been this desire to take a raw piece of wood and make
something that's a one of a kind in this world. Anyone (in my opinion)
that can look at a *good* piece of furniture and not be amazed at the
wood grain, the finish, the play of light on the top, sides and mouldings
is lacking something somewhere in their soul (ok, poetic side back in its
corner).
Now, as to the questions (asked of me) and the reason for my original
post. Yes, it's going to be a half-of-the-two-car-garage workshop. I
have two walls in the garage (with cars in) that are 4 feet deep by 25
feet long, plenty of space to store tools against the wall. Add to that
a section in the garage of about 20'x12' that stores nothing today. I
figure I can store a full table saw (with in and outfeed tables) there
easily.
I also have a 7.5' tall 30'x24' crawlspace that shares a wall next to the
garage (the town planning board nixed the idea of taking out 1.5' of dirt
and pouring a pad in there)that will be perfect to house a compressor and
vacuum system to be piped into the shop where needed.
My first project(s) planned are cabinets for the garage, converting a
basement into a home theater and probably (with some help from a general
contractor) finishing off a 800SF walk up attic to turn it into a library
(in following this newsgroup, I'm sure with some experience over time
<and a lot of questions asked here> I can make cabinets better and
cheaper than at the BORG). With those under my belt, I may even tackle
the kitchen and replace the cabinets there.
And finally, in closing, I've been the old classified adds search and
most of the used tools I've looked at were either to worn out or to close
to new prices for me to bother. I'm not an expert (I freely admit that)
and my biggest fear is buying a lemon and not even having a warranty to
fall back on. So, for the money I have to spend I can outfit (with a
budget in reserve for all the 'other stuff' such as blades, sanders,
chisels, router bits, Etc.) a good 'full' shop using Grizzly or almost
all of my wish list using one of the more expensive lines (Delta,
Powermatic, Etc.).
To all of you that have replied my thanks, you've all given me some great
advice (well, I'll skip the one about always having four car payments,
but with my last car being 20 years old and two kids that travel 80 miles
a day to college, it was necessary) and a lot to think upon before I pull
the trigger and decide to jump in with both feet, or ease into the pool.
Bob H
Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
Ease in I think it's going to be. After a lot of thought (and 'some' good
advice here), I've decided to start small and work my way up. First items
are a small pad in the crawlspace and install the dust collection system,
table saw and a router or two. That ought to keep me busy for a month or
two and get me well on the way to butchering some wood :). If I use those
tools as a stepping stone (e.g. building jigs, some cabinets for the
garage, Etc.) maybe I'll learn enough in the process to take myself out of
the 'seen it a thousand times, but never done it' category.
My thanks for the advice, it is truly appreciated,
Bob H
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 14:00:09 -0500, John Doe <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
>home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
>and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
>I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their X-
>Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
>much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby
I will make this short and sweet. The only tool that really matters
is your brain. The next best tool is the one that is in your shop,
not at the store/warehouse. Put down the books and the excuses and go
make some saw dust. The rest you'll figure out as you go along.
-Leuf
Putting some of your message together in my own particular
way, I'm going to zero in on "some wood working" and "hobby"
and then "cheap."
I think your list is reasonable -- not necessarily the list I would
come up with -- but exceeds "some" and "hobby" by quite a
bit. Narrow your list down, is my advice. I think you'll find that
you'll need things NOT on your list (sanders, battery powered
drill, Bessey K-clamps, for some examples) that are NECESSARY
well before you get to "planer" (note the spelling) and "jointer"
(and you'll find that 6" fits "hobby" and "some" and "cheap"
much better than 8").
And you can spend a ton on those things I mentioned, too.
Then, think BORG. Seriously. Go to Home Depot (Ridgid
brand) and Sears (Craftsman brand) when their stuff is on
sale. You'll find that "inexpensive" and "cheap" aren't necessarily
the same word AND that the Big Box Stores have sales that
can save a significant amount of money.
You might get burnt out on this "hobby," too. So start off
with a more limited list of "what I need to buy." You might
not "truly get into this hobby."
Oh...and that list you generated takes some space to house.
Jim Stuyck -- been adding new tools for over 45 years now
and I still have some REALLY CHEAP stuff I bought when I
started out (I also have discarded some crap along the way)
"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
John Doe wrote:
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
Rather than "starting a shop", start a _project_. Get what you need for
that project. With any power tool purchases think ahead though, don't get
just what you need for the one project if you know that you're going to be
needing a more capable tool later.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
> People who purchase good deals in used stationary equipment are lucky and
do
> not live where I live.
>
I agree. Obviously there is good used equipment out there somewhere. I have
never been able to locate it either. I have bought used once... I did not
know what to look for.... I overpaid for a crapsman monotube lathe. I had
never used a lathe before. How could I possibly assess its quality or
appropriateness for the task?
It worked, but it was no gloat.
The thing about buying used is that you already have to be experienced to
sort out the junk from the good stuff. I suspect luck plays a major role as
well.
Buying used is for people who want a project.... phase one... spend the next
18 months shopping and phase 2 is some level of refurb. It's tough enough
for a newbie to assemble and tune a table saw out of the box with proper
documentation, vendor support and a warrantee.
Suggesting that the used market is appropriate for a newbie is poor advice.
To the OP....
There has been lots of good advise to far. I have a couple comments and
some repetition:
Re Cabinet saw: No table saw is really sheet goods capable out of the box.
It's just unsafe to run 4x8 sheet of anything through a table saw without
plenty of auxillary support. Build an outfeed table *and* precut sheet
stock down to a more managable size with a circular saw.
Buy a decent circular saw and a decent jig saw. Expect to pay close to $150
for each. You can expect these to last the beter bart of your lifetime. Not
because these are so much indespensable for a woodworking hobby, but if you
are a homeowner, you will want to have these over time. I good jigsaw will
also do alot (not all) of what a bandsaw will do for you.
Good advise that I think is worthy of repetition:
Buy tools as you need them. Woodworking skills are *evolutionary* .. tool
buying should be as well. It takes time to set up and get to know each tool.
Workbench is a necessary tool and an excellent first project. Build one; it
won't be you last; don't over-think it... just do it.
Grizzly is not really low end. I think you will find more differences
between classes of machines than maufacturers. That is a would *much* rather
have a griz cabinet saw than a powermatic contractors saw.
Cheers,
Steve
Greg D. wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 04:08:02 -0500, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The fact is that, no matter what path you choose or what advice you
>>follow,
>>you will spend more money on this avocation than you ever conceived. If
>>you choose to spend money to save time, you will sink a fortune into it.
>>
>>Bob
>
>
>
> Can't agree more Bob!
>
> Woodworking is a lot about details and having the tools to produce
> those details cost a lot. Over the last 10 years I have increase my
> project complexity as my pool of tools increased.
>
> The funny part is, even though I have almost everything a woodworker
> can dream of, it doesn't look like I will ever stop buying new
> tools/accessories. It's more fun when you can afford it though.
>
> The advice of looking for used tools is also not a viable option.
For some people it is. Scrounging is a skill in itself, that some people
have and most do not. But people with that skill don't ask what tools to
get, they've already scrounged everything they think they need.
> Before jumping in woodworking, I've looked at all the classifieds
> possible and never really turned out anything good. You'll find plenty
> of crap though. If by any chance, you do find great tools, don't
> worry, their owners know how much they have paid for them and they
> won't give them to you. It's not rare to pay up to 80% of the price
> new when very good tools are concerned. For example, I purchased brand
> new a General 3HP cabinet saw for 2450$. If I happen to find one used
> but recent, it will easily sell over 2000$. In that case, it's not
> worth taking a chance for so little difference.
>
> On the other hand, crap will sell easily at 10%-20% of its original
> cost but who wants crap for woodworking?
>
>
> Greg D.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> and that's something that wouldn't have been possible if I had spent
> all that woodworking investment down at the local tavern every Friday.
And of course, there's the enjoyment aspects of woodworking. I've yet to
find a recreational enjoyment that makes me money. Since my woodworking
falls into the category of something I enjoy, I don't ever really expect to
make money from it, not in the long term anyway. The occasional profit made
from small projects only goes to amplify the enjoyment I get from
woodworking.
>>
>> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
>> 2) Middle = Delta, General
>> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>>
>> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from
>> the
>> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>>
Depends on how much money you want to spend on brand names. I would lump
Grizzly, Jet, Delta and perhaps General into the Middle Range. Some price
difference, not much else. Tools from any of these should meet your needs.
Powermatic is still High Range but is showing signs of slipping.
You need to look and feel the individual machines and not base you decisions
on others perceptions. IMHO Grizzly makes as good a tool as any in my mid
range above. Apparently a lot of industrial shops agree. However, don't
base decisions on paint color. I have a fully integrated shop (Grey, Beige,
Green, and Baby-Poop Yellow).
RonB
OK, several posts state something along the lines of "Buy used - there is a
glut available." I've been looking for some good used equipment and have had
very little luck.
Any suggestions on the best places to find good used equipment?
"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
Yeah, but all the fun he had hunting for that stuff was priceless.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 14:00:09 -0500, John Doe <[email protected]>
wrote:
>To all,
>
>I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
>home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
>and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
>I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their X-
>Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
>much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
>cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
>shopping list includes:
Firstly, I'd look hard for quality second-hand items. They are often a
great deal. I have bought about 1/2 my tools that way. The preferred
sellers are older gentlemen who's age, or maybe illness, means they
are giving up WW. It's a genuine reason for the sale, and they pleased
to see their tools going to a good home. And I hope all mine do the
same one day.
>1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
I had one, but did not use it that often, so sold it. I now use a
Hitachi circular saw (Bought second hand from my neighbour who was
moving overseas) and a 8x4 cutting grid. For cutting sheet panels it's
a LOT safer than a table saw. A google search will show how simple it
all is.
>2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
Prob my most used tool, I have a JET 18", but the 14" Delta might be
as good if starting. There's been many reviews in magazines and some
of the cheaper models (Grizzly, etc) seem pretty good.
>3) 8" Jointer
I have an old, very solid, second-hand 6" one. It was cheap and does
very good work. The manufacturer went out of business 20 yrs ago, but
after-market blades are readily available.
>4) 13"+ Planar
The Ryobi AP1300 is low-cost and actually pretty good, at least mine
does all that I ask of it, and it's had a lot of recovered timber
through it. (Be VERY careful of nails though) They get reasonably
good reviews, and their planers are some of their best tools. IIRC it
was Ryobi that first made the "table-top" 12-13" planers.
>5) Drill Press
Again an old second-hand one does great. Or buy a cheap one to get
some practice, then buy a good one when you work out what you really
need.
>6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
I bought a VERY cheap Chinese one, and it worked well, and let me get
a lot of practice. Then I bought the large Triton (new), and it's
pretty awesome, then a second-hand Makita that was too good a bargain
to pass up. I use all three.
>7) Miter Saw
The DeWalt range is hard to beat and I really like my DW705, but if
money was tight, the smaller Ryobis don't look too bad.
One item that is not on your list, but I use a lot is a big, powerful
jigsaw. IMO, it's worth spending the money for a good Bosch. I have
the GST135, but I think it's called the 1590 in the USA. It never
stops cutting and the difference between it and the cheap ones is
amazing.
Barry Lennox.
On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 19:40:08 -0400, "Lightning" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>OK, several posts state something along the lines of "Buy used - there is a
>glut available." I've been looking for some good used equipment and have had
>very little luck.
>
>Any suggestions on the best places to find good used equipment?
It's not all that common , and it requires a bit of work. If I get
two good used bargains a year, I think I'm doing well.
I have had the most luck from:
Your workplace, if your workmates all know about your WW interest, you
might be offered machinery that was bought years ago, and is now
sitting unused, or the old lathe that is around at grandpa's place,
now that he no longer uses it.
Auctions, but know your price limit and stick to it. And inspect the
machinery well.
Wanted adverts in the local trading or community papers.
Barry Lennox
Geez, if you buy all that hardware new then you're not just satisfying a
hobby, you're going into business.
With all due respect, you sound over-eager. Look for used cast iron
tooling on eBay or at local garage sales and put the money you'll save
into an extra mortgage payment every year so that when you retire (okay,
let's indulge that fantasy) you'll retire sooner and have more full days
of woodworking ahead of you.
The tools you buy will have a lot to do with the available space in your
workshop. You don't say what amount of floor space you are going to be
able to devote to this hobby so I am going to use the "husband's half of
the two car garage" for a measurement because those Taunton books kind
of assume that you've got a 25'x25'x outbuilding to spare for this sort
of thing. I shall assume only that you park "your" vehicle in the
driveway, not in "your half" of the garage.
In said space you'll be lucky to fit a 10" RAS, 8" table saw, two drill
presses, wood lathe, metal lathe, shaper, workbench with built-in router
table and side/end vises, scroll saw, 4" benchtop jointer, belt/disc
sander, clamp racks, shop vac (don't forget the mess!!), grinder,
sharpening station -- and the most space consuming things of all --
scrap bins!! Buckets and buckets of them. Dammit, with global warming it
ain't cold enough in winter anymore to consume all the scraps, assuming
you can let yourself part with them. Clutter is going to overwhelm you.
Oh, and then there's shelving for fasteners, hand tools, jigs, and space
for sheet goods, raw lumber, etc. You're going to put everything on
wheels, too. And did I mention space for applying dust-free finishes to
those lovely heirlooms you'll be creating?
Now, with that stuff in hand, you're going to want to buy decent jack,
scrub and jointer planes, and you'll want to make frame/fret/bow saws
with interchangeable rip and crosscut blades, because you'll have no
room for a big ass bandsaw, and you'll find that you won't need it or
the 13" planer or 8" jointer or miter saw or five routers or 10" table
saw with four-foot wide wings for the sheet goods you won't be able to
maneuver by yourself without introducing errata in your would-be glue
line edges -- since you're going to be in possession of these cheaply
made "neanderthal" tools that work at least as well and quickly as their
modern motor powered descendants -- and which are skill building
woodworking projects in their own right. If you feel like splurging, do
so on a dedicated mortiser or biscuit joiner.
Don't ask me how I know this but you need to find the right balance for
you between electric powered and human powered tooling. It's a personal
thing. Everybody will pursue it differently. But I've seen crap emanate
from "toolie" shops and beautiful works of art from the humblest and
poorest of garages.
If you are contemplating making a run of kitchen cabinets from really
nice 3/4 plywood then buy or build a panel saw, and if you can't devote
a wall to it then hang the sucker from the shop ceiling (on pulleys of
course so that you can lower it when necessary). With this one tool,
carefully calibrated, then you can handle sheet goods with aplomb. You
won't cut full sheets of plywood accurately any other way unless you
have a lot of floor space and a Taunton-style ball bearing sliding table
or unless you really enjoy hand cutting oversize parts with a circular
saw and finishing them up on a table saw and router (with appropriate
jigs and carbide cutters).
J.
John Doe wrote:
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 04:08:02 -0500, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The fact is that, no matter what path you choose or what advice you follow,
>you will spend more money on this avocation than you ever conceived. If you
>choose to spend money to save time, you will sink a fortune into it.
You've got that right, Bob. I just add a little at a time, but I must
have over $30,000 into my little shop at this point- and it's not even
the nicest one in town (though it is getting pretty respectable at
this point). That's not to discourage anyone, of course- you hardly
notice it when it goes out of your wallet in $80-150 chunks with big
purchases spread out a bit.
OTOH, sometimes (though not enough to quit my day job) I make a tidy
short-term profit from that shop in the basement. Even though I doubt
I'll recoup the entire investment anytime soon, it sure does help out
to be able to make an extra couple thousand bucks every now and then-
and that's something that wouldn't have been possible if I had spent
all that woodworking investment down at the local tavern every Friday.
Everything has an opportunity cost to it- at least with this hobby,
you've got a pile of tools and hopefully some nice projects to show
for your effort. Most other recreational activities can't make the
same claim...
On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 17:16:57 -0400, John <[email protected]> wrote:
>$30K on tools 'n stuff? That's some "hobby." That's what I attempted to
>point out to the OP who alleges that he wants to start out "on the
>cheap" but his punch list of tools 'n stuff reads like a professional
>cabinet shop's inventory.
>
>Bully for you, though!
Well, sort of a hobby. But I'm a carpenter/cabinetmaker by trade, so
I try and keep my home shop at or near the tooling level I'm
accustomed to at work. Gotta do something with my overtime money, and
I'm hoping to stop having a boss to worry about at some point in the
not so distant future. But the same logic applies to someone looking
to do it as a serious hobby- it's a whole lot more fun if you're not
fighting your tools, and if you buy your stuff a little bit at a time
it doesn't hurt the wallet too badly. I couldn't imagine trying to
get everything at one time- my checkbook would probably have a stroke,
and I'd be eating nothing but sawdust for a year or two.
>J.
>
>Prometheus wrote:
>> You've got that right, Bob. I just add a little at a time, but I must
>> have over $30,000 into my little shop at this point
On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 13:01:43 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>For some people it is. Scrounging is a skill in itself, that some people
>have and most do not. But people with that skill don't ask what tools to
>get, they've already scrounged everything they think they need.
You are actually right. I have a friend like that. He spends all his
weekends hunting all the garage sales of the neighborhood. Over the
span of 5 years, he collected all sort of junk paid less than 5$
piece. He filled up his basement until he couldn't even walk
downstairs. He had to use his garage door to get in the basement.
Then, getting fed up of all this mess after he realized he would never
use all this junk <Doh!>, he finally called a guy recycling junk. The
guy left with a 10 wheeler full of junk and gave him 100$.
Moral of the story: he spent hundreds of dollars scattering the
neighborhood in search of junk but never paid more than 5$ each. He
sold it all back for 100$ to a guy who will send it to a dump yard and
get paid for the steel. In the meantime, he had no basement for 5
years.
Wow, this is really smart!
The same people claiming they make huge savings in finding those used
tools forget one very important thing. How much have they spent the
rest of the year hunting and looking for them?
It's like people claiming they're making money at the Bingo. They
forget to mention all the money they spent previously before winning
the 500$ jackpot once in a blue moon. When all the figures are known,
they're always at loss.
Greg D.
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 04:08:02 -0500, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The fact is that, no matter what path you choose or what advice you follow,
>you will spend more money on this avocation than you ever conceived. If you
>choose to spend money to save time, you will sink a fortune into it.
>
>Bob
Can't agree more Bob!
Woodworking is a lot about details and having the tools to produce
those details cost a lot. Over the last 10 years I have increase my
project complexity as my pool of tools increased.
The funny part is, even though I have almost everything a woodworker
can dream of, it doesn't look like I will ever stop buying new
tools/accessories. It's more fun when you can afford it though.
The advice of looking for used tools is also not a viable option.
Before jumping in woodworking, I've looked at all the classifieds
possible and never really turned out anything good. You'll find plenty
of crap though. If by any chance, you do find great tools, don't
worry, their owners know how much they have paid for them and they
won't give them to you. It's not rare to pay up to 80% of the price
new when very good tools are concerned. For example, I purchased brand
new a General 3HP cabinet saw for 2450$. If I happen to find one used
but recent, it will easily sell over 2000$. In that case, it's not
worth taking a chance for so little difference.
On the other hand, crap will sell easily at 10%-20% of its original
cost but who wants crap for woodworking?
Greg D.
You don't have sanders, finishing spay guns, compressor, or any fans, vents,
or such on your list. I presume this is just an oversight for posting to
this NG.
Just remember one advise from FWW -- "Beginners focus on making wooden
things, after a year or so, everyone focuses on making customers." No mater
how well built, the finish and how the whole projects looks is what sells.
You will be selling items that cost way more than Wal-Mart. The buyer wants
to feel they are getting something for their money, even if it just bragging
rights to 'hand-craftsmanship.' The more 'intangibles' you can offer to a
customer, the easier the sell.
Phil
"John Doe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all,
>
> I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
> home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
> and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
> I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their
> X-
> Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
> much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
> cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
> shopping list includes:
>
> 1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
> 2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
> 3) 8" Jointer
> 4) 13"+ Planar
> 5) Drill Press
> 6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
> 7) Miter Saw
>
> So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
> hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
> little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
> as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
> you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
> measure):
>
> 1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
> 2) Middle = Delta, General
> 3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
> Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
> low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
> My thanks,
>
> Bob H
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 14:00:09 -0500, John Doe <[email protected]> wrote:
>To all,
>
>I've always wanted to do some wood working (bookshelves, tables, cabinets,
>home repair/re-build, Etc) but with two kids in college, four car payments
>and a mortgage, money is not a readily available item.
>
>I've done a tremendous amount of research (Taunton Press has me on their X-
>Mass card list)and I've followed this newsgroup for years. I've pretty
>much figurd out what I need to buy to truly get into this hobby, but the
>cost differential between the manufacturers astounds me. My initial
>shopping list includes:
>
>1) Table Saw (cabinet saw - sheet goods capable)
>2) Band Saw (would like to re-saw and try veneering)
>3) 8" Jointer
>4) 13"+ Planar
>5) Drill Press
>6) Multiple routers for router table and free standing use
>7) Miter Saw
>
>So (and here comes the religious war), if you were starting out (serious
>hobby type work) and funds were not unlimited (I can afford my list with a
>little left over using the low end), where would you put your money as far
>as tool quality? In my readings, it seems that from a quality viewpoint
>you have (subjective for me based on reading and using like cost as a
>measure):
>
>1) Low end = Grizzly, Jet, Rikon
>2) Middle = Delta, General
>3) High = Powermatic, Laguna
>
>Would you splurge on any one tool or could I get by buying it all from the
>low end dealers (e.g Grizzly)?
>
>My thanks,
>
>Bob H
Bob.. I'll let the others fight the brand wars....
Just wanted to say that I've been playing with woodworking for about 50 years
and still want a few things on your list "someday".. lol
Mac
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm
"RonB" wrote in message
> Powermatic is still High Range but is showing signs of slipping.
Ain't that a crying shame, but the cold hard reality/truth! The 21st century
market place seems to bring everything down to the lowest common denominator
... and it isn't quality.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/21/06