I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
came out of a hardware bin.
Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
suffering -- and the price continues to go up.
Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?
"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:wCW6d.3050$gm.800@okepread07...
> Yeah, but a machine that has double in price during the past 10 years
cannot
> be called cheap.
>
Cheap, yes. Inexpensive, no.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>It's sad. I see all kinds of cost-cutting efforts that sacrifice
>quality but Americans love cheap. I bought a Starrett Wade square
>last month for $165 (with compass and center finder), yet I know
>WalMart has the same thing for $12.95.
No, they don't. They might have something similar at that price, and less
accurate (probably much less), but it won't be "the same thing" as a Starrett
(assuming that's what you meant by "Starrett Wade").
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
RonB said:
>I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
>new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
>now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
>came out of a hardware bin.
>
>Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
>tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
>might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
>suffering -- and the price continues to go up.
>
>Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?
Bean Counters, Lawyers, and Boards of Directors are destroying the
world!
Greg G.
I would go one better...money talks, businesses listen...when money
walks, businesses really listen.
The next time you choose Brand X over Delta (as in table saws), take
the time and write a letter to Delta and enclose a copy of your
invoice showing the purchase of the competitor's saw. Explain why you
chose the competitor's saw over Delta's offering. Be specific. Address
the letter to the CEO of Delta and include your phone number. Don't be
surprised when you get a call asking for more information. Bean
counters who continue to cause lost sales don't stay counting beans
very long.
In other words, companies will give you what you are willing to pay
for. If you are only willing to pay for garbage then you will get
that. If you want quality workmanship and materials, then make your
voice heard and back it up with your wallet.
And if you were wondering, most all my tools are older American iron.
I can afford to buy new tools but the quality is not there and has not
been for some time. I have personally inspected hundreds of table
saws, bandsaws, drills, jointers, etc. side by side and almost without
exception I will buy older iron because it was designed and built so
much better.
TMT
Rick Cook <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> RonB wrote:
>
> > I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
> > new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
> > now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
> > came out of a hardware bin.
> >
> > Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
> > tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
> > might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
> > suffering -- and the price continues to go up.
> >
> > Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?
>
> It's probably worth writing nasty letters to the company. The bean counters get
> away with this nonsense primarily because they convince the PHBs in management
> that no one notices. I'd be willing to bet there are people inside the company
> that would love to have angry letters from customers as confirmation that
> people DO notice -- and care.
>
> --RC
RonB wrote:
> I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
> new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
> now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
> came out of a hardware bin.
>
> Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
> tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
> might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
> suffering -- and the price continues to go up.
>
> Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?
It's probably worth writing nasty letters to the company. The bean counters get
away with this nonsense primarily because they convince the PHBs in management
that no one notices. I'd be willing to bet there are people inside the company
that would love to have angry letters from customers as confirmation that
people DO notice -- and care.
--RC
Phisherman wrote:
> It's sad. I see all kinds of cost-cutting efforts that sacrifice
> quality but Americans love cheap. I bought a Starrett Wade square
> last month for $165 (with compass and center finder), yet I know
> WalMart has the same thing for $12.95.
Wally World may have squares, perhaps even with both compass and
centerfinder, but I doubt it. They assuredly do not have
Starretts, nor do they havew the acuracy, precision or smoothness
of operation. Quality always costs more, and nothing but quality
will do in certain circumstances. The cheap knock-off may be
accurate if you are lucky, when you first get it it, but it will
lack precision, and over time, lose its accuracy. It will always
feel clunky.
Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/
Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
> In article <wCW6d.3050$gm.800@okepread07>, "RonB" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Yeah, but a machine that has double in price during the past 10 years cannot
>>be called cheap.
>
>
> Closest to 10 years back I could come up with is the Nov./Dec. 1992
> issue of Fine Woodworking. There's a Tool Crib ad for a 3hp Unisaw with
> Biesmeyer fence for $1629 *after* a $100 rebate. (page 24) My current
> Tool Crib catalog lists today's comparable Unisaw at $1850.
>
> Hardly double and really surprising given the 12 year span.
>
Or are they really cutting costs and sacrificing quality to keep the
cost down?
mahalo,
jo4hn
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> It's sad. I see all kinds of cost-cutting efforts that sacrifice
> quality but Americans love cheap. I bought a Starrett Wade square
> last month for $165 (with compass and center finder), yet I know
> WalMart has the same thing for $12.95.
Starrett Wade? I know of Starrett and Garret-Wade.
The Wal*Mart job is probably OK for some work, but usually won't be as
accurate, as easy to read, as smooth operating. Depends on how much you
value that.
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:33:01 GMT, Murray Peterson
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>They get it, but they just don't care.
Or they see it as a calculated risk. Cheapen here, cheapen there and
see what the market reaction is. They can always put them back, slap
on a new logo and whip up a marketing campaign.
Latest Pop Woodworking has an aside talking about impending cost
increases. Manufacturers know they can't always pass them on, or pass
them on immediately - they must do it carefully. Cheapen the knobs
might be a way, in a bean-counters eyes.
With any luck - there are a number of peer groups in an organization
to keep the accountants in check. Just like the accountants nix ideas
like titanium wheels with diamond studs.
> As far as I can see, this is common
>to most companies in existence -- they start out with a good product, and
>it gets "value engineered" into the ground, all in the name of improving
>profit. This eventually drives the company out of business, since new
>companies can now start up with higher quality products, and without the
>tainted name.
Or - they get smart and try to course correct before Chapter 11/7.
>It's very sad.
It's the natural cycle. I'm OK with it. Suppose I'm capable of
running a small shop that manufactures Router Bits. When Whiteside,
CMT, Freud and Amana give me an opening - I'll take it.
It's an opportunity!
"Juergen Hannappel" wrote in message
> What to produce is
> not determined by the need for the product but by its marketability,
> which can be easily seen by the huge profits made with such utterly
> useles crap like ringing tones for portable phones, drugs or SUVs.
LOL ... except for my implied "we get what we deserve", that's pretty much
what I was getting at. ;>)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ahh ... you hit the sticky wicket with the crux of the mallet head. :)
>
> In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
> marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).
>
Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say the Unisaw is inferior........ yet.
When I started looking for a machine to update my old contractor's saw a few
years ago I was pretty much predisposed to the Unisaw. I had used them in a
college cabinet class during the mid 70's and had fond memories. A friend
also had an older Delta. When I started actually shopping my first
disappointment was what had become of the Unisaw. I ended up buying a
Grizzly 1023S. It still has some of what Delta had.
RonB wrote:
> I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
> new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
> now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
> came out of a hardware bin.
>
> Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
> tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
> might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
> suffering -- and the price continues to go up.
>
> Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?
>
>
Buy a General 650 while you still can. Only some minor 'cost
reductions' evident. I bet they lose $$ on each one.
"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in news:i9W6d.3048$gm.2423@okepread07:
> I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just
> unpacked a new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled
> handwheel locks have now been replaced with some kind of wing nut.
> They look like someting that came out of a hardware bin.
>
> Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it.
They get it, but they just don't care. As far as I can see, this is common
to most companies in existence -- they start out with a good product, and
it gets "value engineered" into the ground, all in the name of improving
profit. This eventually drives the company out of business, since new
companies can now start up with higher quality products, and without the
tainted name.
It's very sad.
That is only true to a point. The trick to marketing these days is, "yes,
are stuff is crap but the competition is worse". You can buy the best
available but what is available may well be crap.
Same with politicians. "yes, I'm a sleazeball but my competition is worse".
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "RonB" wrote in message
>
> > Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it.
>
> That's a given ... but apparently the cheap shits who will continue to buy
> them don't either.
>
> It's called the "WalMart/BORG Factor" ... sell cheap shit to cheap shits.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 7/10/04
>
>
>I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
> new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks
> have
> now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting
> that
> came out of a hardware bin.
So did the knurled ones, problem is that they are paying somebody $20 an
hour to pull 'em outta the bin. Then that $20 somebody thinks the employer
owes them $12,000
worth of insurance to cover him, his spouse and every other blood relative
just because he's a trained knob installer. And now our insured $20 knob
installer gets a sliver skateboarding over the weekend, bides his pain till
he gets to work on Monday reports for workmans comp because those knurls got
slivers in the bin. Now knob installer is off for the next 3 months
protected by the FMLA so the employer can't even replace him to keep
production up but still collecting some kind of compensation for no work.
Then Billybob & associates runs across Knob installers name in the insurance
records and convinces him to sue the employer for an exorbitant amount of
money for "compensation". Employer knows better than to argue with the
insurance company recalling the same insurance company handled the "Miss
Offended" case in the broke her nail office scandle of '02. Ponies up the
cash and takes another shot on the chin. Just as he sits down thinking he's
past this and may be able to keep the doors open one more month sits down to
read the notice from those OSHA folks about the knurled knob saftey
factor.......
Sigh
EJ
Swingman,
There's more ...and that is the sad part
"Sell cheap shit to cheap shits....who like cheap shit"
RW
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "RonB" wrote in message
>
> > Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it.
>
> That's a given ... but apparently the cheap shits who will continue to buy
> them don't either.
>
> It's called the "WalMart/BORG Factor" ... sell cheap shit to cheap shits.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 7/10/04
>
>
---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.769 / Virus Database: 516 - Release Date: 9/24/2004
"Ray White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman,
>
> There's more ...and that is the sad part
>
> "Sell cheap shit to cheap shits....who like cheap shit"
Well hell ... I sorta thought it you were a cheap shit, that went with the
territory. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04
jo4hn wrote:
>Or are they really cutting costs and sacrificing quality to keep the
>cost down?
Not Owen but I personally think they've been subsidizing the
Unisaw with the sale of other machines. Like Owen I can go
back through past issues of magazines and find the full page
machinery/tool seller's ads and track back a "sameish" price
for at least ten years and maybe more.
As for sacrificing quality, yes the Unisaw has changed but
it's been things like the morphing of the dust door until
there was finally none, the changing of lock knobs from die
cast with a chrome finish to plastic (plastique David) and
of course the greatest crime of all the elimination of the
cast iron plinth.
sigh...
As for the innards, there have been changes but nothing of
the magnitude that allows for an easy explanation of why the
saw hasn't kept up with the rate of inflation.
Now, there have been instances of bad quality control but
that seems to be hit or miss. In other words, you can still
buy a good Unisaw.
If anything the real change with the Unisaw has been it just
ain't as classy as it once was.
UA100
In article <wCW6d.3050$gm.800@okepread07>, "RonB" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Yeah, but a machine that has double in price during the past 10 years cannot
> be called cheap.
Closest to 10 years back I could come up with is the Nov./Dec. 1992
issue of Fine Woodworking. There's a Tool Crib ad for a 3hp Unisaw with
Biesmeyer fence for $1629 *after* a $100 rebate. (page 24) My current
Tool Crib catalog lists today's comparable Unisaw at $1850.
Hardly double and really surprising given the 12 year span.
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
"Ray White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman,
>
> There's more ...and that is the sad part
>
> "Sell cheap shit to cheap shits....who like cheap shit"
Hey, leave my mother-in-law out of this!
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:05:36 -0500, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a
>new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have
>now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that
>came out of a hardware bin.
>
>Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use
>tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function
>might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is
>suffering -- and the price continues to go up.
>
>Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?
>
It's sad. I see all kinds of cost-cutting efforts that sacrifice
quality but Americans love cheap. I bought a Starrett Wade square
last month for $165 (with compass and center finder), yet I know
WalMart has the same thing for $12.95.
I have made all kinds of knobs from scraps of hardwood, make a hex
hole into them, then epoxy a nut into the hold. Makes it much easier
to tighten/loosen.
"Murray Peterson" wrote in message
> They get it, but they just don't care.
That too ... but it's even deeper than that with regard to "they just don't
care". AAMOF, just exactly who is it that "doesn't care"?
Widget A is a well made, long lasting, high quality product with a fair
price tag. Widget B is a cheap, low quality rip off of Widget A, but priced
low enough that more and more folks who either "don't care", or "don't know
better", will buy Widget B.
Can you fault a company trying to survive by moving toward Widget B "price
point engineering", since that is what is selling?
The point: the consumer makes the choices ... if there are none left, it's
very often his own damn fault.
> tainted name.
Ahh ... you hit the sticky wicket with the crux of the mallet head. :)
In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).
Defense: Buy used!
> It's very sad.
You're right about that!
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OlZ6d.85$q%[email protected]...
All my wife and I had to do was sit in the Accord to
> realize it was that much better.
A foot note to my comments. I do not doubt for a second that Americans can
build great cars. The Accords are American built, but the engineering is
Japanese.
"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:tpi7d.3769$gm.2452@okepread07...
> Sad to say, with the exception of the diesel volvo, off-shore products
> win.
>
>
I agree in the 70's and part of the 80's, but I've had more recent
experience otherwise. Aside from normal things like brakes, tires and oil
changes.
86 Mercedes 135K Water pump, cooling fan, cruise control module ($450),
alternator, fuel injectors, cruise control again, rear bumper fell off
(honest, it is glued on), wheel bearing, radio.Cooling fan sensor, and
probably more. IIRC, the air cleaner element was about $45.
91 Regal 135K Water pump. front struts (still use it, maybe 2 more years)
97 Le Sabre 90K NO repairs (traded for the 01)
01 Le Sabre 88K NO repairs (plan to keep it 6 or more years yet)
Swingman notes:
>In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
>marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).
>
>Defense: Buy used!
>
>> It's very sad.
>
>You're right about that!
The biggest problem with that defense is that at some point, sooner rather than
later IME, you're buying used in the cheap shit category, and we're all a lot
worse off.
I do not know what the answer is, but it may have something to do with longer
term planning for companies, or for less widespread ownership that is better
known. When the owners were family, more products stood the test of time
because the family reputation was based on their service and honesty. Today,
the only thing based on the product is the profit margin for the next 90 days.
Long term planning is done for this time next year.
Pfui.
Charlie Self
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the
well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and
vindicator only of her own." John Quincy Adams
I was in the same situation about 8 months ago. I knew I would be needing a truck, to haul stuff, general working etc.
Found a used (1986) F150 straight six with a good bed and liner - $700.00. Not the best in looks, but I really don't
care what the snobs in the neighborhood think. I use mine all the time to haul stuff to the dump, bring lumber home,
pull a trailer, etc. I tell the daughters that this is the best vehicle I own because it runs, works hard and is paid for.
JAW
U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:26:00 -0400, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Toyota Tundra doesn't fit your needs?
>>
>
>
> Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
> standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"
>
> I need it about once a month, but when I need it, I REALLY need it.
>
>
> Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
> standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"
>
My Chevy 2500HD, 8.1L Shortbed won't hold a 4x8sheet with the tailgate
closed. It will pull a 33', 12,000 pound 5th wheel trailer with a 2,000
pound pin weight over a 10,000 ft mountain pass in 2nd or 3rd gear at 55
MPH. It also barely squats with topsoil heaped over the wheel wells.
It isn't a family car!
"Jon Endres, PE" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> I wish that somebody besides Nissan made a full size four door heavy-duty
> pickup. I'm stuck with Dodge, Ford or Chevy, and the way I abuse trucks,
> they don't last long. I'd buy the Nissan except that it's so gawdawful
> butt-ugly it makes me ill, and would be embarrassing to drive.
My Nephew owns a landscape business and is very tough on his trucks. He
hauls yards of material and tractors on goose necks, not lawn equipment, and
now swears by GMC after going through 3 Dodges. IIRC the Toyota full size
is suppose to actually become full size very soon.
RonB wrote:
> Maybe the best that can happen is our tool industry will fall to the levels
> the auto industry did during the 70's. I still remember buying a new Olds
> Cutlass and finding rust on it within three months. The best the dealer
> could do was add bondo and let it continue to rust.
>
> Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
> building good cars again. Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
> Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
> consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
> product.
The same thing happened in the semiconductor equipment industry in the early
90s. The Japanese started to clobber us in their typical Japanese fashion,
American (and European) companies woke up, made major changes, and won back
market share.
So it can be done.
Whether it will be done with home equipment is another question. Singer used to
make the best sewing machines in the world, hands down. Then 'value
engineering' set in and they ended up pushing crap made in Brazil. My wife, the
expert, won't touch a new Singer, but she still dreams about finding one of the
classic ones at a price she can afford.
One thing that will help is if the discerning customers (like the members of
this newsgroup) make their opinions heard long and loud at the companies. It's
not a cure but it's better than just taking it until we move to stuff from
other companies.
--RC
<Sniped to make a point>
>> Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
>> building good cars again.
>
> I will say that American Ford and GM trucks are pretty good.
>
> Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and
> Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
>> consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
>> product.
>
> I just bought a 2004 Honda Accord EX but looked at the top end Saturns.
> The Saturns were $3000 cheaper for the same equipment and trim level as
> the Accord. All my wife and I had to do was sit in the Accord to realize
> it was that much better.
>
Leon, I too work in the automotive industry. Our company operates Honda,
Acura, Chevrolet and Saturn dealerships.
Bad cars (and other products) are made by all companies. Hondas blew
headgaskets like crazy, Saturns were noisy and ate alternators and
batteries, Acura transmissions were junk and so on and so on. What matters
to me is how the manufacturer handled the problems. Honda/Acura stepped up
and fixed all of them - no questions. Saturn fixed their issues with a
little pushing, Chevrolet relies on the dealer to decide if they should help
and to what extent.
Bad companies are the ones that die. Good companies, step up and take care
of issues and subsequently improve their products. That is until they are
swallowed-up by larger companies.
Woodworkers are in somewhat a different class. They buy cheap crap all the
time and justify it by saying "It works OK for me" or "I don't use one
enough to warrant a quality one". I am a tool snob. Not because I love
spending tons of money, but because I want my tools to work right when I
need them. OTOH, I do own some Jet and some import Delta tools. However, I
do buy professional quality when it counts.
My (long and windy) point is, Wal-mart, Harbor Freight, Grizzly and the like
will continue to flourish because we do not want to pay for real quality and
are willing to settle for less. Quality companies like Lee Valley,
Lie-Nielsen, Leigh, Snap-On, Miller Electric, Wilton and others will also
have a market until they venture down the "cheaper is always better" road.
Are you listening Robin?
Dave
Note to Robin, I looked high and low to replace a special crowbar (that was
stolen) and now I see you have them. They are without a doubt, the best of
the best. They have no peer. You call it the renovator's bar. I searched
for the name on the bar, TOVE, and it did not show up on your site. You
should add TOVE somewhere on the page so more people might find them on your
site.
Well said.
Dave
"Rick Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> RonB wrote:
>
>> Maybe the best that can happen is our tool industry will fall to the
>> levels
>> the auto industry did during the 70's. I still remember buying a new
>> Olds
>> Cutlass and finding rust on it within three months. The best the dealer
>> could do was add bondo and let it continue to rust.
>>
>> Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
>> building good cars again. Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
>> Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
>> consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
>> product.
>
> The same thing happened in the semiconductor equipment industry in the
> early
> 90s. The Japanese started to clobber us in their typical Japanese fashion,
> American (and European) companies woke up, made major changes, and won
> back
> market share.
> So it can be done.
>
> Whether it will be done with home equipment is another question. Singer
> used to
> make the best sewing machines in the world, hands down. Then 'value
> engineering' set in and they ended up pushing crap made in Brazil. My
> wife, the
> expert, won't touch a new Singer, but she still dreams about finding one
> of the
> classic ones at a price she can afford.
>
> One thing that will help is if the discerning customers (like the members
> of
> this newsgroup) make their opinions heard long and loud at the companies.
> It's
> not a cure but it's better than just taking it until we move to stuff from
> other companies.
>
> --RC
>
"Jon Endres, PE" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:OlZ6d.85$q%[email protected]...
>>
>> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:chY6d.3150$gm.3106@okepread07...
>>
>> >
>> > Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
>> > building good cars again.
>>
>> I do not think that they are good now, perhaps better but still as a hole
>> pale compared to the Japaneese cars. I bought my last American car in
> 1983.
>> My dad bought his last American car in 1997. My sister and brother in
>> law
>> still buy American and still have the silly probllems.
>
> I wish that somebody besides Nissan made a full size four door heavy-duty
> pickup. I'm stuck with Dodge, Ford or Chevy, and the way I abuse trucks,
> they don't last long. I'd buy the Nissan except that it's so gawdawful
> butt-ugly it makes me ill, and would be embarrassing to drive.
After checking with four mechanics I bought the Chevy 2500HD with the diesel
engine and Allison transmission. 24,000 miles with not a single problem.
Bob
Bingo!
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message > I do not know
what the answer is, but it may have something to do with longer
> term planning for companies, or for less widespread ownership that is
better
> known. When the owners were family, more products stood the test of time
> because the family reputation was based on their service and honesty.
Today,
> the only thing based on the product is the profit margin for the next 90
days.
> Long term planning is done for this time next year.
>
[email protected] (Charlie Self) writes:
>Swingman notes:
>
>>In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
>>marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).
>>
>>Defense: Buy used!
>>
>>> It's very sad.
>>
>>You're right about that!
>
>The biggest problem with that defense is that at some point, sooner rather than
>later IME, you're buying used in the cheap shit category, and we're all a lot
>worse off.
>
>I do not know what the answer is, but it may have something to do with longer
>term planning for companies, or for less widespread ownership that is better
>known. When the owners were family, more products stood the test of time
>because the family reputation was based on their service and honesty. Today,
>the only thing based on the product is the profit margin for the next 90 days.
>Long term planning is done for this time next year.
>
Let's take an example near and dear to our hearts. The Stanley Works.
Plane quality became lower and lower as Stanley pushed into the mass
market. Many lines discontinued. Finally stopped domestic production
entirely with only a limited product line continued from England.
Still a market for quality planes, so some time later a small
start-up (L-N) began to fill the niche. Now there is competition
in the niche with LV also producing quality planes (and undercutting
the price of the L-N).
If Delta does go the way of Stanley, someone else will
step up to fill the niche (Powermatic, General, HotdogSuperSawsLtdIncLLP.).
And there are the international alternatives[*] (clifton, ece, et. al.)
scott
[*] Yes, LV is also an 'international alternative'.
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:26:00 -0400, Renata <[email protected]> wrote:
> Toyota Tundra doesn't fit your needs?
>
Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"
I need it about once a month, but when I need it, I REALLY need it.
"TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Leon, I too work in the automotive industry. Our company operates Honda,
> Acura, Chevrolet and Saturn dealerships.
Our sister conmanies sold Honda from the early years when you could also
sell motorcycles in the same dealership, Buick, Mazda. GMC, Isuzu and
Oldsmobile.
Having been on the receiving end of customer complaints with 4 of thise
product lines, I got the least complaints percentage wise from the Japanese
car owners.
> Bad cars (and other products) are made by all companies. Hondas blew
> headgaskets like crazy, Saturns were noisy and ate alternators and
> batteries,
I am not familiar with Honds's blowing head gaskets but I bet it was not
anymore often than the Oldsmobile Diesel engines and the Chevrolet Vega
engines. :~)
What matters to me is how the manufacturer handled the problems.
True. I also had to deal with the Oldsmobile factory service reps. What an
arrogent bunch they were. Our dealership won service awards from Oldsmobile
and they would send us their problem customers after the other Olds dealers
failed to properly repair the cars. We would do the warranty work on those
cars and the rep would kick back the claims because we were replacing too
many parts when compared to the other 4 delaerships. Maybe we were
replacing too many parts but the cars were being properly repaired and the
customers stayed with us.
Acura transmissions were junk and so on and so on. Honda/Acura stepped up
and fixed all of them - no questions.
My wife and I had a 90 Integra automaticand put more miles on it than any
other vehicle. We replaced it simply because my wife wanted an new car 10
years later.
Saturn fixed their issues with a
> little pushing, Chevrolet relies on the dealer to decide if they should
> help and to what extent.
>
> Bad companies are the ones that die. Good companies, step up and take
> care of issues and subsequently improve their products. That is until
> they are swallowed-up by larger companies.
>
> Woodworkers are in somewhat a different class. They buy cheap crap all
> the time and justify it by saying "It works OK for me" or "I don't use one
> enough to warrant a quality one". I am a tool snob. Not because I love
> spending tons of money, but because I want my tools to work right when I
> need them. OTOH, I do own some Jet and some import Delta tools. However,
> I do buy professional quality when it counts.
>
> My (long and windy) point is, Wal-mart, Harbor Freight, Grizzly and the
> like will continue to flourish because we do not want to pay for real
> quality and are willing to settle for less. Quality companies like Lee
> Valley, Lie-Nielsen, Leigh, Snap-On, Miller Electric, Wilton and others
> will also have a market until they venture down the "cheaper is always
> better" road. Are you listening Robin?
>
> Dave
>
> Note to Robin, I looked high and low to replace a special crowbar (that
> was stolen) and now I see you have them. They are without a doubt, the
> best of the best. They have no peer. You call it the renovator's bar. I
> searched for the name on the bar, TOVE, and it did not show up on your
> site. You should add TOVE somewhere on the page so more people might find
> them on your site.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:chY6d.3150$gm.3106@okepread07...
>
> Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
> building good cars again.
I do not think that they are good now, perhaps better but still as a hole
pale compared to the Japaneese cars. I bought my last American car in 1983.
My dad bought his last American car in 1997. My sister and brother in law
still buy American and still have the silly probllems. Their latest Crown
Victoria 2001 model has the stigma of possibly blowing up if hit from behind
and they had to replace the tires at 18,000 miles. It has 22,000 miles on
it and they get it realigned every 5,000 miles. They had a 1994 Ford
Contour before that and it would stall all the time. They traded it with
45,000 miles on it. Before that a 1990 Mustang that ate starters,
flysheels, and starter soleniods.
I will say that American Ford and GM trucks are pretty good.
Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and
Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
> consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
> product.
Precisely. Up until 10 years ago I was in Automotive management and was in
that field from the time I was in school. Having been a service sales
manager for a large Oldsmobile dealer in Houston, I can attest that
Oldsmobile got what it deserved. From there I was hired as the GM of an AC
Delco whole distributor. We sold only to GM dealers in East Texas. We
literally sold thousands of alternators, AC compressors, and starters
monthly. I just bought a 2004 Honda Accord EX but looked at the top end
Saturns. The Saturns were $3000 cheaper for the same equipment and trim
level as the Accord. All my wife and I had to do was sit in the Accord to
realize it was that much better.
Swingman wrote:
[snip]>
> Lexus, a rose by any other name smells just... like a Toyota?
>
> I can only surmise that the marketing folks are convinced they are dealing
> with a bunch of fools ... and they seem to be vindicated thus far in that
> belief.
>
One starts with the Camry, add on lots of electronic gadgets and
sound/video systems, fancier upholstery and paint, maybe a little bit of
sheet metal, a new badge, and voila, a Lexus. If you want all that
extra stuff, go for it. I own a Camry and love it.
mahalo,
jo4hn
jo4hn responds:
>> Lexus, a rose by any other name smells just... like a Toyota?
>>
>> I can only surmise that the marketing folks are convinced they are dealing
>> with a bunch of fools ... and they seem to be vindicated thus far in that
>> belief.
>>
>One starts with the Camry, add on lots of electronic gadgets and
>sound/video systems, fancier upholstery and paint, maybe a little bit of
>sheet metal, a new badge, and voila, a Lexus. If you want all that
>extra stuff, go for it. I own a Camry and love
And I am convinced the U.S. manufacturers, at least the German owned one, are
returning to the '70s. I bought a new Dodge Stratus in 2000. POS is a polite
word and shithead is a polite description of the dealer. All smiles, no help.
It's a real joy to discover that a high speed whistle--60 mph up--is a fact of
life, something to do the with the transmission, and cannot be corrected.
Surging on fill-up? They can't replicate the problem. Why? They didn't fill the
car up, even though I five times told them I'd pop for the gas. Thieves in the
garage? My wife has a bad habit of leaving cash for gas and tolls in the
console. First clip was $17. Driver's door is now out of alignment, sometimes
has to be shouldered heavily out of the way. My wife gets to climb over the
console when it happens. I ain't climbing no damned console to get out of an
unwrecked vehicle, so it opens. Oddly enough, it then works fine for six or
seven months. Passenger rear door, seldom used (dog normally rides on that
side, so we let her in and out from the outside), won't open from the inside.
And the beat goes on.
My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.
Charlie Self
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the
well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and
vindicator only of her own." John Quincy Adams
My 95 Ram 1500 has almost 170,000 miles on it. It still has the original engine
(doesn't use oil) and, original transmission (nice and tight). The only
problems are that the head liner is starting to sag and the paint is flaking off
on one fender.
Grant
Leon wrote:
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.
>
> My nephew bought his first new vehicle, a Dodge PU about 7 years ago. He
> had to replace it and chose Dodge again. That one lasted about 2 years.
> Replaced it with another Dodge. 18 months later he had to replace that one.
> GMC this time. Other than regular eminence he has not had any problems in
> 80,000 + miles pulling a fifth wheel with a Bobcat loaded on it a lot of the
> time.
> Strongly, My wife works with a lady that owns a Dodge PU. Used light duty.
> This is their third and they have had AC problems with all three. She said
> no more.
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.
My nephew bought his first new vehicle, a Dodge PU about 7 years ago. He
had to replace it and chose Dodge again. That one lasted about 2 years.
Replaced it with another Dodge. 18 months later he had to replace that one.
GMC this time. Other than regular eminence he has not had any problems in
80,000 + miles pulling a fifth wheel with a Bobcat loaded on it a lot of the
time.
Strongly, My wife works with a lady that owns a Dodge PU. Used light duty.
This is their third and they have had AC problems with all three. She said
no more.
Leon responds:
>Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.
>
>My nephew bought his first new vehicle, a Dodge PU about 7 years ago. He
>had to replace it and chose Dodge again. That one lasted about 2 years.
>Replaced it with another Dodge. 18 months later he had to replace that one.
>GMC this time. Other than regular eminence he has not had any problems in
>80,000 + miles pulling a fifth wheel with a Bobcat loaded on it a lot of the
>time.
>Strongly, My wife works with a lady that owns a Dodge PU. Used light duty.
>This is their third and they have had AC problems with all three. She said
>no more.
I bought a used '87 in '88 and added 165,000 miles to the 33,000 on the clock.
Sold it last year, to me current regret. But it did have compressor problems. I
replaced three and decided I didn't want the frigging AC that badly, so did
without it. Vent windows are a big help. I have to wonder who specs those POS
compressors. Truck otherwise needed a water pump in the years I owned it
(normal repairs, one set of brakes, one rotor turning, tires, exhaust
system--it was OK but the catalytic convertor plugged and blew an exhaust
gasket at 144,000 miles).
Charlie Self
"Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I bought a used '87 in '88 and added 165,000 miles to the 33,000 on the
> clock.
> Sold it last year, to me current regret. But it did have compressor
> problems. I
> replaced three and decided I didn't want the frigging AC that badly, so
> did
> without it. Vent windows are a big help. I have to wonder who specs those
> POS
> compressors. Truck otherwise needed a water pump in the years I owned it
> (normal repairs, one set of brakes, one rotor turning, tires, exhaust
> system--it was OK but the catalytic convertor plugged and blew an exhaust
> gasket at 144,000 miles).
Where you live, AC is probably not so important. Down here in Houston you
would gladly give up the steering wheel in order to have the AC. I think
the American car companies are going cheap in all the hang on equipment. As
I stated in another post our company sold thousands of alternators,
starters, and Compressors each month and only for GM vehicles. That was a
big profit center for us.
I recall back in the 70's GM had the old Frigidaire A6 Axial compressors.
IIRC Continental used these compressors also. They were long and narrow and
could be easily rebuilt. Now days that stuff is so cheap it is cheaper to
replace than to repair. It becomes a vicious cycle.
Leon writes:
>Where you live, AC is probably not so important.
S. Central VA is not exactly the frigid north in June, July, August and well
into September.
>I recall back in the 70's GM had the old Frigidaire A6 Axial compressors.
>IIRC Continental used these compressors also. They were long and narrow and
>could be easily rebuilt. Now days that stuff is so cheap it is cheaper to
>replace than to repair. It becomes a vicious cycle.
I gave up when the 'new' Freon came online and it was going to cost me some big
bugs to replace the compressor and refill the system. I forget how much now,
but that $140 compressor was way, way under a third of what the refill was
going to cost.
I'm too cheap for that. I'd far rather sweat.
Charlie Self
"Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
In '67 I bought a new Fairlane GT convert. Between '67 and '69, the dealer replaced every part in/on the engine,
transmission and the differential along with most of the interior. They had it more than I did.
Swapped to GM until I bought a new '99 F150 Lariat extended cab..5.4 V8-auto-PS-PB-air-leather and all the goodies. In order
to get it off the lot, they had to replace the power steering pump, then in the next 30K miles,they caulked then replaced
the windshield, replaced the back window (twice), the side indicator mirror, the steering wheel and I had to replace the
brakes and tires. All this and only getting 17 MPG on the road. I got rid of that POS at 30K because the dealer couldn't
diagnose the transmission failing.
Currently I have 2 Suzuki Grand Vitara, 1 with 60K and the other with 30K. No complaints with either.
R. Wink
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:06:30 -0700, Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:25:34 -0500, Swingman wrote:
>
>> "Charlie Self" wrote in message
>>
>>> My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.
>>
>> I've got an '01 Dodge 1500 RAM extended cab ... even though it has an
>> excess of plastic on it, and is not that highly rated by consumer
>> advocates from what I can gather, the only other pick-up I've liked as
>> much was a 3/4 ton GMC I bought new in '78.
>>
>> AAMOF, my wife would rather travel in it than in her Camry ... so long as
>> she doesn't have to pay for the gas.
>
>Had an spanking new '83 F150 with the 4.9L inline 6. It got 22-23 MPG on
>the highway. Drove it 177,000 miles in 15 years. Had one rear axle seal
>replaced and a clutch in all that time. Never had to add oil between
>changes and it alway passed the emissions tests with flying colors. I'd
>still be driving it if it hadn't been stolen outa my driveway. Replaced
>it with a used '87 F150 5.0L V8 with 112,000 on it. Now has about
>150,000, with only front brakes replaced. This one only gets about 15 MPG :-(
>
>-Doug
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:25:34 -0500, Swingman wrote:
> "Charlie Self" wrote in message
>
>> My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.
>
> I've got an '01 Dodge 1500 RAM extended cab ... even though it has an
> excess of plastic on it, and is not that highly rated by consumer
> advocates from what I can gather, the only other pick-up I've liked as
> much was a 3/4 ton GMC I bought new in '78.
>
> AAMOF, my wife would rather travel in it than in her Camry ... so long as
> she doesn't have to pay for the gas.
Had an spanking new '83 F150 with the 4.9L inline 6. It got 22-23 MPG on
the highway. Drove it 177,000 miles in 15 years. Had one rear axle seal
replaced and a clutch in all that time. Never had to add oil between
changes and it alway passed the emissions tests with flying colors. I'd
still be driving it if it hadn't been stolen outa my driveway. Replaced
it with a used '87 F150 5.0L V8 with 112,000 on it. Now has about
150,000, with only front brakes replaced. This one only gets about 15 MPG :-(
-Doug
--
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
then you and I will still each have one apple.
But if you have an idea and I have one idea and we exchange these
ideas,then each of us will have two ideas" George B. Shaw
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
> My last Chrysler product, except maybe for a pick-up.
I've got an '01 Dodge 1500 RAM extended cab ... even though it has an excess
of plastic on it, and is not that highly rated by consumer advocates from
what I can gather, the only other pick-up I've liked as much was a 3/4 ton
GMC I bought new in '78.
AAMOF, my wife would rather travel in it than in her Camry ... so long as
she doesn't have to pay for the gas.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OlZ6d.85$q%[email protected]...
>
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:chY6d.3150$gm.3106@okepread07...
>
> >
> > Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
> > building good cars again.
>
> I do not think that they are good now, perhaps better but still as a hole
> pale compared to the Japaneese cars. I bought my last American car in
1983.
> My dad bought his last American car in 1997. My sister and brother in law
> still buy American and still have the silly probllems.
I wish that somebody besides Nissan made a full size four door heavy-duty
pickup. I'm stuck with Dodge, Ford or Chevy, and the way I abuse trucks,
they don't last long. I'd buy the Nissan except that it's so gawdawful
butt-ugly it makes me ill, and would be embarrassing to drive.
Jon E
"TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
<snipped>
> Note to Robin, I looked high and low to replace a special crowbar
> (that was stolen) and now I see you have them. They are without a
> doubt, the best of the best. They have no peer. You call it the
> renovator's bar. I searched for the name on the bar, TOVE, and it did
> not show up on your site. You should add TOVE somewhere on the page so
> more people might find them on your site.
The crowbar I have works all too well, with regard to purchasing Robin's
products, thank you very much.
Patriarch
"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in news:chY6d.3150$gm.3106@okepread07:
> Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
> Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim.
Interesting you should use that comparison. Volvos today are an
excellent example of cost engineering (they're also overpriced crap).
Volvo is living off the reputation they made 20+ years ago with the
240 series (and I wish I still had mine).
John
Maybe the best that can happen is our tool industry will fall to the levels
the auto industry did during the 70's. I still remember buying a new Olds
Cutlass and finding rust on it within three months. The best the dealer
could do was add bondo and let it continue to rust.
Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
building good cars again. Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
product.
RonB wrote:
>>Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
>>standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"
>>
>
> My Chevy 2500HD, 8.1L Shortbed won't hold a 4x8sheet with the tailgate
> closed. It will pull a 33', 12,000 pound 5th wheel trailer with a 2,000
> pound pin weight over a 10,000 ft mountain pass in 2nd or 3rd gear at 55
> MPH. It also barely squats with topsoil heaped over the wheel wells.
>
> It isn't a family car!
My friends range rover can carry a full size 8x4 sheet inboard with the
tailgate shut, and is used as a family car: http://www.rangie.com/
"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2llad.2719$EZ.2312@okepread07...
>> Does it hold a 4x8 sheet flat with the tailgate closed? That's my
>> standard of "A truck" versus "A family car"
>>
>
>
> My Chevy 2500HD, 8.1L Shortbed won't hold a 4x8sheet with the tailgate
> closed. It will pull a 33', 12,000 pound 5th wheel trailer with a 2,000
> pound pin weight over a 10,000 ft mountain pass in 2nd or 3rd gear at 55
> MPH. It also barely squats with topsoil heaped over the wheel wells.
>
> It isn't a family car!
>
Sounds like a nice truck except ~8 MPG yet can't haul plywood with the
tailgate up or a 14 foot board.
Reminds me some men I've heard of. All bulk but come up SHORT on the
business end. teehee
Gary
Toyota Tundra doesn't fit your needs?
Renata
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:35:47 -0400, "Jon Endres, PE"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I wish that somebody besides Nissan made a full size four door heavy-duty
>pickup. I'm stuck with Dodge, Ford or Chevy, and the way I abuse trucks,
>they don't last long. I'd buy the Nissan except that it's so gawdawful
>butt-ugly it makes me ill, and would be embarrassing to drive.
>
>Jon E
>
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman notes:
>
>>In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil
>>marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).
>>
>>Defense: Buy used!
>>
>>> It's very sad.
>>
>>You're right about that!
>
> The biggest problem with that defense is that at some point, sooner rather
> than
> later IME, you're buying used in the cheap shit category, and we're all a
> lot
> worse off.
>
> I do not know what the answer is, but it may have something to do with
> longer
> term planning for companies, or for less widespread ownership that is
> better
> known. When the owners were family, more products stood the test of time
> because the family reputation was based on their service and honesty.
> Today,
> the only thing based on the product is the profit margin for the next 90
> days.
> Long term planning is done for this time next year.
An example is the Jayco line of RVs. founding family brought in a new
management team about 8 years ago that lowered quality on which the company
was built and prided itself, pissed off the work force andembarassed the
dealers. The family resumed control and has spent 5 years or so trying to
regain the company's reputation.
I fear that won't happen with Delta, a publicly traded company. What may
very well happen is that the Chinese, who learn very fast and have modern
production facilities and a motivated work force, will produce tools for an
expanded marketplace. Chinese demand for cars is already partly responsible
for the increase in gas prices worldwide. According to Paul Leinert, a very
experienced auto writer in the latest Automobile magazine, "the market (in
China) is expected to double by 2012, then double again before 2020, to 16
million cars a year, about the current size of the U.S. market." After that,
China will be the largest market for cars in the world.
The implication is that growing affluence will satisfy a huge demand. That
affluence will come in part from China's plan to become the world's machine
shop. Watch for some very interesting competition.
Bob
"RonB" wrote in message
> Maybe the best that can happen is our tool industry will fall to the
levels
> the auto industry did during the 70's. I still remember buying a new Olds
> Cutlass and finding rust on it within three months. The best the dealer
> could do was add bondo and let it continue to rust.
>
> Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started
> building good cars again. Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered
> Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as
> consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a
> product.
Good points ... but I am still wondering at how easy it is to sell the a
gullible consumer the SAME car, made by the same company in the same
factory, by just changing its name and almost doubling the price??
Lexus, a rose by any other name smells just... like a Toyota?
I can only surmise that the marketing folks are convinced they are dealing
with a bunch of fools ... and they seem to be vindicated thus far in that
belief.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04
> Interesting you should use that comparison. Volvos today are an
> excellent example of cost engineering (they're also overpriced crap).
> Volvo is living off the reputation they made 20+ years ago with the
> 240 series (and I wish I still had mine).
>
> John
Agreed. But I was talking about what happened in the industry 20 - 30 years
ago. Our scorecard since that time frame is.
- '72 Vega GT - Spent 4 of its 18 months in the shop having engine parts and
rear ends replaced. Developed bad habit of loosing power or dying when you
pulled out from an intersection - bad with semi's approaching.
-'74 Cutlass Supreme - Started rusting three months after delivery. Two
trips to the dealers body shop then we all threw up our hands. When traded
three years later the trunk latch was held in place with bondo and rivets.
(we do NOT live in a high salt area). Also replaced two water pumps and
then rear wire harness so tail lights would go out.
- '74 Volvo 145 Wagon. Purchased with 40,000 miles and drove it to 170,000
miles. Replaced one fuel pump and odometer module. Experienced HEAVY
impact from rear that destroyed our camping trailer and pushed part of it
through rear window. Minimal body damage. Ranger that worked accident said
"thank your stars you were in a Volvo."
- '80 Volvo 245. Purchased with about 45,000 miles. Drove four years with
no repairs.
- '82 Volvo diesel - POS
- 86 Chevy Blazer - Bought new, drove 10 years/150,000 miles. Replaced
steering sector, two radiators, two water pumps. Overall pretty good since
it towed quite a bit.
- 87 Honda - Purchased at about 50,000 miles. Drove to 150,000 miles. One
fuel pump, one alternator
- 97 Chevy Pickup - Bought new, drove 80,000 miles. Two ring and pinion
sets, One complete rear axle, Removed environmental ducts to clean out
manufacturing debris that disabled the system. Replaced heater inlet
plumbing at head requiring removal of head on one side. One water pump.
- '02 Chevy 2500HD, 8.1L, Allison - 43,000 so far. Replaced drive shaft.
Replaced rear transmission seal. When oil consumption dropped to 850
miles/qt Chevy finally owned up to a service bulletin that replaced head
gaskets and bolts to fix (?) a known oil consumption problem. Experience
"piston slap" noise on startup (brother in law thought it was a diesel) that
GM refuses to recognize as a problem.
- '99 Toyota Camry, 95,000 miles so far, no repairs - just maintenance.
Sad to say, with the exception of the diesel volvo, off-shore products win.
Yes, we know that everyone (besides CEOs. of course) should work for 3 cents
per hour with no benefits.
"Eric Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked
a
> > new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks
> > have
> > now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting
> > that
> > came out of a hardware bin.
> So did the knurled ones, problem is that they are paying somebody $20 an
> hour to pull 'em outta the bin. Then that $20 somebody thinks the employer
> owes them $12,000
> worth of insurance to cover him, his spouse and every other blood relative
> just because he's a trained knob installer. And now our insured $20 knob
> installer gets a sliver skateboarding over the weekend, bides his pain
till
> he gets to work on Monday reports for workmans comp because those knurls
got
> slivers in the bin. Now knob installer is off for the next 3 months
> protected by the FMLA so the employer can't even replace him to keep
> production up but still collecting some kind of compensation for no work.
> Then Billybob & associates runs across Knob installers name in the
insurance
> records and convinces him to sue the employer for an exorbitant amount of
> money for "compensation". Employer knows better than to argue with the
> insurance company recalling the same insurance company handled the "Miss
> Offended" case in the broke her nail office scandle of '02. Ponies up the
> cash and takes another shot on the chin. Just as he sits down thinking
he's
> past this and may be able to keep the doors open one more month sits down
to
> read the notice from those OSHA folks about the knurled knob saftey
> factor.......
>
>
> Sigh
> EJ
>
>
Murray Peterson <[email protected]> writes:
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in news:i9W6d.3048$gm.2423@okepread07:
>
>> I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just
>> unpacked a new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled
>> handwheel locks have now been replaced with some kind of wing nut.
>> They look like someting that came out of a hardware bin.
>>
>> Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it.
>
> They get it, but they just don't care. As far as I can see, this is common
> to most companies in existence -- they start out with a good product, and
> it gets "value engineered" into the ground, all in the name of improving
> profit. This eventually drives the company out of business, since new
> companies can now start up with higher quality products, and without the
> tainted name.
This is the typical product of what is euphemistically called "free
market", but in reality is a greed-driven chaos: What to produce is
not determined by the need for the product but by its marketability,
which can be easily seen by the huge profits made with such utterly
useles crap like ringing tones for portable phones, drugs or SUVs.
>
> It's very sad.
It will kill all of us, sooner or later...
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23