Let me ask a noobie question.
I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
compound miter.
I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the wood
and shoot in a direction.
Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work, and
safety concerns?
Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning it
up and making a good base.
Steve
On Friday, October 12, 2012 10:22:11 AM UTC-7, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/12/2012 10:07 AM, Lee Michaels wrote: > Just a quick note. > > I gr=
ew up around radial arm saws. Used them a lot and never knew that > they we=
re the fabled monsters of current lore. > > I probably cut a quarter mile o=
f dadoes with radial arm saws. Quick and > fast bookshelves and assorted mo=
dules from cheap pine. Did not have > much money, but made some very solid =
furniture that is still going > strong 30 - 40 years later. I used one earl=
y on to build barns, stalls and in the construction of three recording stud=
ios. Never once heard anyone say a bad word about them prior to that, but I=
nonetheless had a very strong premonition of possible danger, and a sense =
of the need for more than normal caution, from my very first use, that was =
impossible to ignore. ... it is well to heed that little voice in the back =
of some of our heads when around whirring blades and bits. :) -- www.eWoodS=
hop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to=
/eWoodShop
Yes, if I feel any synching of the ball sack I know the current operation i=
s not wisely advised.
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 19:26:46 -0500, dpb wrote:
> On 10/15/2012 7:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 10/15/12 6:06 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> The significant difference in a RAS crosscutting is that one is
>>> climb-cutting so it is possible for the saw to want to accelerate
>>> towards the operator.
>>
>> The likely outcome is that the teeth would dig into the wood and the
>> motor would stall.
> ...
>
> You've not been around an Original Saw Company 16" or the equivalent,
> then...it _may_ stall but I'll guar-on-tee you'll pucker a bunch and not
> forget it if (or, more accurately, when) it happens. :)
Company I work for has as many as a dozen of the 16" and 20"
RAS, some originals and some not.
They can be choked down on 4x12 green hardwood timbers, but it
isn't a given on anything smaller, and it is an event to remember.
For the record, it would be difficult to find anything to replace these
saws for the work we do and injuries are rare to nonexistant.
They can and are used safely, same as any other machine,
keep your parts out of the path of its parts.
basilisk
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:18:07 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
>
>> The Wood Manufacturing Technology program at Cerritos College here
>> in SoCal
>> has an old radial arm saw that they keep around just to show how
>> dangerous
>> the beast can be.
>>
>> The only thing they use it for is to cross cut rough stock to rough
>> length
>> before proceding with finishing blanks to size.
>
>----------------------------------------------------
>For the record, it's a 12" unit that has a many years on it.
>
>The fact they only have one unit and it is restricted to cross cutting
>rough
>stock to rough length as the first step to size rough cut stock to
>size
>should tell you something.
>
>BTW, they have at least 10, 10" table saws including Unisaw, General
>and
>PM 66.
>
>All of these saws were swapped out for Saw Stop units 2 years ago.
>
>As you might expect, safety is of prime concern.
>
>The college has deep pockets and wants to keep them full of cash,
>not lawsuits.
>
>IMHO, the RAS is a beast that has outlived it's usefulness.
>
>Lew
>
>
>
All give you about 50% on that answer. I've been using one since the
late 70's. I'll agree with use as far as ripping boards, I did it
once and that was time to buy a tablesaw. You can mount a chuck on it
and use it for horizontal drilling or put a router bit in and use it
on soft wood as a pin router. Only 3450 RPM. Great for Dado's and
many other cuts. Also there are molding heads available. Since I
got the unisaw with the sliding table uses have diminished but as long
as I've got the floor space every now and then it's handy,
Mike M
"Steve B" wrote:
> Let me ask a noobie question.
>
> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a
> DeWalt compound miter.
>
> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab
> the wood and shoot in a direction.
>
> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are
> good for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind
> of work, and safety concerns?
>
> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or
> cleaning it up and making a good base.
-------------------------------------------------------------
The Wood Manufacturing Technology program at Cerritos College here in
SoCal
has an old radial arm saw that they keep around just to show how
dangerous
the beast can be.
The only thing they use it for is to cross cut rough stock to rough
length
before proceding with finishing blanks to size.
IMHO, I'd cut it up and throw it in the dump, before I hurt myself.
<Flame suit on>
Lew
"Bill Gill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10/11/2012 10:55 PM, Steve B wrote:
>> Let me ask a noobie question.
>>
>> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
>> compound miter.
>>
>> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the
>> wood
>> and shoot in a direction.
>>
>> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
>> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work,
>> and
>> safety concerns?
>>
>> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning
>> it
>> up and making a good base.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
> I have one and have had one since the early 70s. I have never
> had any particular problem. You should treat them with
> respect as you should any tool. When my old one died after
> about 30-35 years I went out and bought a new Craftsman.
>
> Check the Sears web site to see if you can find a downloadable
> manual for your saw. If they have one you can figure out
> everything you need to know.
>
I have one purchased in 1970, it doesn't get much use these days as I now
have other stationary tools, but there are certain cuts that cannot be done
with any other tools and some that are not safe to do with other tools. Used
carelessly, as with most tools, they can be dangerous. This was my first
stationary power tool, bought when I was building my house. I have done
everything on it, and can report that they are no more dangerous than, say a
table saw if used properly, but like a table saw, a radial arm saw can do a
lot of damage if not set up properly and used with care. Some people are
scared of the exposed blade but with the blade guard in place it is no worse
than a trim saw, and for some cuts being able to see the blade can make it
easier to avoid the blade with your fingers.
Just a quick note.
I grew up around radial arm saws. Used them a lot and never knew that they
were the fabled monsters of current lore.
I probably cut a quarter mile of dadoes with radial arm saws. Quick and
fast bookshelves and assorted modules from cheap pine. Did not have much
money, but made some very solid furniture that is still going strong 30 - 40
years later.
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On 10/12/2012 11:42 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> ...
>
>> One significant plus for a RAS is its accuracy, which really comes into
>> play
>> with cabinetry and the like.
>
> _ONLY_ if it is solid enough to be so...unfortunately, many of the
> low-priced Craftsman and the ilk aren't...whether OP's is or not is
> indeterminate w/o knowledge of specifics of model.
>
Yep, a lot of the cheaper saws will cut accurately, if you do lots of setup
and babysitting. And if you get it zeroed in, it can lose its setting very
quickly.
Another factor I if it is accurate to begin with. Case in point, I borrowed
the use of a RAS at a friend's house. It was dead on, total accurate 90
degrees. I cut some dadoes. I tried to test fit some pieces and found out
that the dadoes were not consistently the same depth from front to back. I
figured out that the dado actually curved up the further it got into the
board. I pointed it out to my friend.
He apparently cut some aluminum on the saw and got a couple pieces in there
that were much harder than the other stock. This bent the arm up. It did
cutoffs just fine. The dadoes were what was screwed up.
Any time you use a RAS, always check for accuracy. The difference in the
quality between various RAS becomes quite apparent very quickly.
Having said that, I have used a number of RAS that were just fine and did a
consistently, accurate job.
On 10/12/2012 10:39 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 10/12/2012 12:12 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 10/12/2012 11:42 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> One significant plus for a RAS is its accuracy, which really comes
>>>> into play with cabinetry and the like.
>>>
>>> _ONLY_ if it is solid enough to be so...unfortunately, many of the
>>> low-priced Craftsman and the ilk aren't...whether OP's is or not is
>>> indeterminate w/o knowledge of specifics of model.
>>>
>> Yep, a lot of the cheaper saws will cut accurately, if you do lots of
>> setup and babysitting. And if you get it zeroed in, it can lose its
>> setting very quickly.
> ...
>
> The problem w/ a lot of the inexpensive ones is that the arm and
> particularly the yoke are simply not stout enough to prevent movement
> during the cut.
>
> I'd guess it was more likely the arm out of alignment w/ the table
> surface rather than actually physically bowed on the previous occasion.
> Although the arm connection and yoke is often a weak point, generally
> the arm itself is pretty solid and would take quite a lot to actually
> bend. OTOH, there were at least some that had basically just a round
> tube that I've not actually used one of--one of those might possibly
> happen I suppose.
>
> The lighter saws also tend to come w/ nothing more substantial than a
> sheet of 3/4" particle board as a table. Speaking of which, for
> OP--after you've got the thing set up, if the original owner didn't, add
> a sacrificial surface to the main table--saves redoing the whole thing
> nearly as frequently.
>
> The beast here has 2" beech as the actual table and I keep a 1/2" ply on
> it as the working surface that can quickly be replaced for precision
> work. For ordinary cutoff work that is its normal function it doesn't
> matter much so it gets pretty munged up w/ time...
>
> --
The sacrificial table in front of the fence also allows setting miter
cuts without raising the blade as the blade is above the table when
behind the fence. It can also allow not raising the blade for ripcuts
if the inrip or outrip is set up without the fence and the saw head
pulled all the way out with the blade just cutting a trough in the
sacrificial top. Once this has been done, you just need to temorarily
remove the fence while pulling the head to the rip position.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
> The Wood Manufacturing Technology program at Cerritos College here
> in SoCal
> has an old radial arm saw that they keep around just to show how
> dangerous
> the beast can be.
>
> The only thing they use it for is to cross cut rough stock to rough
> length
> before proceding with finishing blanks to size.
----------------------------------------------------
For the record, it's a 12" unit that has a many years on it.
The fact they only have one unit and it is restricted to cross cutting
rough
stock to rough length as the first step to size rough cut stock to
size
should tell you something.
BTW, they have at least 10, 10" table saws including Unisaw, General
and
PM 66.
All of these saws were swapped out for Saw Stop units 2 years ago.
As you might expect, safety is of prime concern.
The college has deep pockets and wants to keep them full of cash,
not lawsuits.
IMHO, the RAS is a beast that has outlived it's usefulness.
Lew
" Lew Hodgett" wrote:
> The fact they only have one unit and it is restricted to cross
> cutting rough stock to rough length as the first step to size rough
> cut stock to size should tell you something.
----------------------------------------------------
"dpb" wrote:
> A) I really don't believe the reason given above has much at all to
> do w/ it still being there.
-----------------------------------------
OK.
------------------------------------------
> B) It tells me they understand where it excels and have far less
> length of time spent in starting new projects from rough, large
> stock than in the later fabrication stages. That somehow doesn't
> seem hard to imagine.
--------------------------------------------
ALL projects start with the development of a rough stock list.
The ONLY function of the RAS is to cross cut rough stock to length.
------------------------------------------
> It also indicates they don't do a lot of really large,
> architectural-style or framing work. Somehow I'm not surprised by
> that, either.
----------------------------------------
I guess "Large" is open to some interpretation.
----------------------------------------------------------
> C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes
> it may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part
> with it. It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when
> needed and nothing else takes its place.
---------------------------------------
In a modern facility such as the one WMT provides, that RAS stands
out as one of the "Last of the Mohicans".
It provides no function that can't be accomplished by other means.
Lew
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> I guess "Large" is open to some interpretation.
---------------------------------------------
"dpb" wrote:
> Indeed, but if were handling 12-, 16-quarter material of 8" and
> wider and 10-plus feet long as a piece of work, the TS would find as
> little application as the RAS does now.
----------------------------------------------------------
Working with that size stock on a production basis would be done with
power feed equipment, not manual feed as provided with a RAS.
For the home hobbyist, there are other ways including but not limited
to a band saw.
----------------------------------------------------------
C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes
it may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part
with it. It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when
needed and nothing else takes its place.
---------------------------------------
Sentimental value is tough to define.
As an add on piece of equipment for the typical hobbyist or even
a small one man shop, a RAS just doesn't cut it IMHO.
Lew
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 01:18:11 -0500, Roy <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:02:36 -0400, "[email protected]"
>>>I have one purchased in 1970, it doesn't get much use these days as I now
>>>have other stationary tools, but there are certain cuts that cannot be done
>>>with any other tools and some that are not safe to do with other tools. Used
>>>carelessly, as with most tools, they can be dangerous. This was my first
>>>stationary power tool, bought when I was building my house. I have done
>>>everything on it, and can report that they are no more dangerous than, say a
>>>table saw if used properly, but like a table saw, a radial arm saw can do a
>>>lot of damage if not set up properly and used with care. Some people are
>>>scared of the exposed blade but with the blade guard in place it is no worse
>>>than a trim saw, and for some cuts being able to see the blade can make it
>>>easier to avoid the blade with your fingers.
>>>====================================================================================
>>>It's rather refreshing to see someone that does not say "oh my god, don't
>>>even look at that thing or it will jump up and kill you". I used one for
>>>years doing rip cuts, cross cuts, bevels, dadoes and even had the planing
>>>cutter which worked very well. They're as safe as any other saw. Same rule
>>>applies. Don't stick a body part into a moving saw.
>>
>>The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).
>
>I was taught to pull the cutter head forward, insert and align the board, turn
>on the saw, then PUSH the saw to make the cut. It will never try to climb over
>the board to get you if you make your cuts that way, just remember to keep your
>pinkies out of the way. Having said that, I must admit I don't do this _every_
>time, and I have at least 5 degrees negative hook on my blade to help cut down
>on the climb issue in those instances. Negative hook makes a big distance in
>how aggressive the cutter head can be if you cut on the pull stroke.
You're giving up a good deal of the crosscut capability of the saw, that way.
You still have the problem of pressure in the board closing the kerf, too.
BTDT.
>I don't use my RAS as much as I used to since I made a cutoff sled and a miter
>sled for my TS. I could live without it, but it does come in handy at times.
I haven't used mine years (favoring the table saw or SMCS), but since I have
oodles of space now, I'll probably will set it up again soon.
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 07:11:19 -0400, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Roy wrote:
>
>>> The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).
>>
>> I was taught to pull the cutter head forward, insert and align the
>> board, turn on the saw, then PUSH the saw to make the cut. It will
>> never try to climb over the board to get you if you make your cuts
>> that way, just remember to keep your pinkies out of the way. Having
>> said that, I must admit I don't do this _every_ time, and I have at
>> least 5 degrees negative hook on my blade to help cut down on the
>> climb issue in those instances. Negative hook makes a big distance
>> in how aggressive the cutter head can be if you cut on the pull
>> stroke.
>
>Unless your blade is rotating opposite to everyone elses, your saw won't try
>to climb regardless of the hook when you push rather than pull.
I thought that's what I said. I have the negative hook blade because I do
sometimes need to cut something wide enough to use the pull stroke.
.
>What it
>will do is try to lift the workpiece and pull it up and away from the fence.
>IOW, someone taught you wrong.
In the 30 years since I first used this RAS I do not recall any evidence of the
blade lifting the workpiece when pushing the blade. Of course I do hold the
piece with one hand and cut with the other. I've even been known to use a jig
or clamp when my dearly beloved pinkies would have to be too close to the blade
if I held the board.
I suppose it is possible for a blade to pick up a board if the board is just
laying on the table with no restraint. I usually just hold it in place with one
hand and push the blade with the other. But anyone stupid enough to try to cut
unrestrained boards is probably already named Lefty or Stumpy or is a Darwin
Award nominee, or will be eventually.
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:55:05 PM UTC-7, Steve B wrote:
> Let me ask a noobie question. I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm=
saw. I already have a DeWalt compound miter. I am kinda afraid of the way =
the thing looks. Like it could grab the wood and shoot in a direction. Coul=
d someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good for, =
why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work, and saf=
ety concerns? Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it=
or cleaning it up and making a good base. Steve
1. My first (of 2 so far) major shop injuries came from a radial arm saw. B=
ut I still love them (typed with the fingers that remain) (Just joking, nip=
ped my left pointing finger but could have raked the whole set of fingers o=
n the left if hand was 2 inches fartehr in the way.)
2. Setup: There is sort of a special way to setup the table and fence for m=
aximum flexibility. Get hold of an older craftsman manual and it will give =
you some ideas.
3. They are way more flexible than a miter saw. Cut wider boards. You can t=
urn the head and use it like a table saw to rip. You can bolt on a sanding =
wheel. You can cut dados (great use for cross cutting multiple dado cuts in=
the edge of boards for lap joints or across boards.)
4. I have seen several weird bolt on tools that can be driven by the motor.=
There is a mortising tool that looks like a mini chain saw.
Yada, yada. Great tool to have around. If I had one I would keep it but sti=
ll use my miter saw for most simple cross cuts of typical width boards, mit=
ers, etc.
"Steve B" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Let me ask a noobie question.
I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
compound miter.
I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the wood
and shoot in a direction.
Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work, and
safety concerns?
Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning it
up and making a good base.
====================================================================================================
They can and will grab the wood, self feed and scare the hell out of you
unless you use a blade designed for it. They have a negative rake to keep
them from climbing.
Steve B wrote:
> Let me ask a noobie question.
>
> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a
> DeWalt compound miter.
>
> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the
> wood and shoot in a direction.
>
> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are
> good for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind
> of work, and safety concerns?
>
> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or
> cleaning it up and making a good base.
>
One significant plus for a RAS is its accuracy, which really comes into play
with cabinetry and the like.
On 10/11/2012 10:55 PM, Steve B wrote:
> Let me ask a noobie question.
>
> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
> compound miter.
>
> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the wood
> and shoot in a direction.
>
> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work, and
> safety concerns?
>
> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning it
> up and making a good base.
>
> Steve
>
>
First off with a RAS you have a stationary machine that has a
cutter/blade that moves and typically moves towards you.
You really have to pay attention to blade rotation direction. With a TS
it a no brainer, you stand in the same place to feed the wood. With a
RAS you have 3 basic locations in which to feed work and you better be
in the correct location when ripping, depending on which way you have
the blade orientated.
My first stationary piece of WW equipment was a Craftsman 10" RAS and I
built a lot of furniture with it. Some of the furniture, 30+ years
later, I use daily. Anyway I used the RAS for 5 years and then added a
Craftsman TS to my collection at that point. In the next 3~4 years I
might have used the RAS a time or two and finally sold it. I never ever
looked back. That Craftsman TS got replaced with a Jet cabinet saw in 1999.
On 10/15/2012 5:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
>> bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
>> saw... possibly less so.
>
> I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on rails, and kickback (if
> any) is directed *away* from the operator.
Assuming that you only cross cut. I built a lot of furniture with one
and ripped a lot of wood with one. You can get kick back/so to speak in
that operation. But with proper procedure and set up that can be prevented.
"EXT" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Bill Gill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10/11/2012 10:55 PM, Steve B wrote:
>> Let me ask a noobie question.
>>
>> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
>> compound miter.
>>
>> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the
>> wood
>> and shoot in a direction.
>>
>> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
>> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work,
>> and
>> safety concerns?
>>
>> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning
>> it
>> up and making a good base.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
> I have one and have had one since the early 70s. I have never
> had any particular problem. You should treat them with
> respect as you should any tool. When my old one died after
> about 30-35 years I went out and bought a new Craftsman.
>
> Check the Sears web site to see if you can find a downloadable
> manual for your saw. If they have one you can figure out
> everything you need to know.
>
I have one purchased in 1970, it doesn't get much use these days as I now
have other stationary tools, but there are certain cuts that cannot be done
with any other tools and some that are not safe to do with other tools. Used
carelessly, as with most tools, they can be dangerous. This was my first
stationary power tool, bought when I was building my house. I have done
everything on it, and can report that they are no more dangerous than, say a
table saw if used properly, but like a table saw, a radial arm saw can do a
lot of damage if not set up properly and used with care. Some people are
scared of the exposed blade but with the blade guard in place it is no worse
than a trim saw, and for some cuts being able to see the blade can make it
easier to avoid the blade with your fingers.
====================================================================================
It's rather refreshing to see someone that does not say "oh my god, don't
even look at that thing or it will jump up and kill you". I used one for
years doing rip cuts, cross cuts, bevels, dadoes and even had the planing
cutter which worked very well. They're as safe as any other saw. Same rule
applies. Don't stick a body part into a moving saw.
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
> bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
> saw... possibly less so.
I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on rails, and kickback (if
any) is directed *away* from the operator. You need one hand to pull the saw carriage. As
long as you keep the other hand out of the path of the blade, it's pretty near impossible to hurt
yourself.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 10/15/2012 5:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
>>> bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
>>> saw... possibly less so.
>>
>> I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on rails, and kickback
(if
>> any) is directed *away* from the operator.
>
> Assuming that you only cross cut. I built a lot of furniture with one
> and ripped a lot of wood with one. You can get kick back/so to speak in
> that operation. But with proper procedure and set up that can be prevented.
Well, yes, I guess I should have specified that I was talking only about cross-cutting.
Rip cuts on a RAS pose some risk of kickback, and that is of course directed at the
operator.
basilisk <[email protected]> wrote in news:1u1cm605hj71i.1i8raxg2e3kup$.dlg@
40tude.net:
> keep your parts out of the path of its parts.
The entire body of woodshop safety practices, neatly summarized in ten words.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:55:05 PM UTC-7, Steve B wrote:
> Let me ask a noobie question. I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm
> saw. I already have a DeWalt compound miter. I am kinda afraid of the way
> the thing looks. Like it could grab the wood and shoot in a direction.
> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work,
> and safety concerns? Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting
> with it or cleaning it up and making a good base. Steve
1. My first (of 2 so far) major shop injuries came from a radial arm saw.
But I still love them (typed with the fingers that remain) (Just joking,
nipped my left pointing finger but could have raked the whole set of fingers
on the left if hand was 2 inches fartehr in the way.)
2. Setup: There is sort of a special way to setup the table and fence for
maximum flexibility. Get hold of an older craftsman manual and it will give
you some ideas.
3. They are way more flexible than a miter saw. Cut wider boards. You can
turn the head and use it like a table saw to rip. You can bolt on a sanding
wheel. You can cut dados (great use for cross cutting multiple dado cuts in
the edge of boards for lap joints or across boards.)
4. I have seen several weird bolt on tools that can be driven by the motor.
There is a mortising tool that looks like a mini chain saw.
Yada, yada. Great tool to have around. If I had one I would keep it but
still use my miter saw for most simple cross cuts of typical width boards,
miters, etc.
+1. A great tool but you have to learn how to use it.
Years ago I was ripping some beech with my first RA saw. Forgot to set the
kickback fingers. Board picked up and the blade sent it hurtling through a
window. Unfortunately the window wasn't open. Never forgotten that.
Fortunately I have learned much and still have all my digits.
Nick.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 19:08:22 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:25:22 -0700, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>...
>
>> The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).
>
>Only if you put yourself in front of it--I've never seen one jump
>entirely off the rail and come across the floor. Just as one should
>never push thru a TS from in line w/ the blade--there's no difference.
There's a *big* difference. One moves, the other doesn't.
On 10/11/2012 11:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 10/11/12 10:55 PM, Steve B wrote:
>> Let me ask a noobie question.
>>
>> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
>> compound miter.
>>
>> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the
>> wood
>> and shoot in a direction.
>>
>> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
>> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of
>> work, and
>> safety concerns?
>>
>> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or
>> cleaning it
>> up and making a good base.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>
> First thing you want to do is google radial arm saw recall. Type in your
> serial number. If it's a match, you'll be sent a new blade guard and
> table that will make the thing much more safe to operate.
> If your serial number doesn't match, put it in the dumpster while you
> still have a hand. :-)
>
>
If the serial number does not match for them to send you the New Table
and blade guard, they will offer to buy the beast, or at least the motor
and carriage. They will send you the box to put it in, pay to come back
to them and then when they confirm the serial number, they will pay you
$100. I gave them my old one,a Craftsman, Got the $100 and bought a
Table Saw. More people have lost fingers and hands with any of those
old radial arm saws.
But if you really want to keep it, I have a book like manual that tells
how to set it up, and how to do all sort of cuts and projects with it.
If you would like a copy, email me at [email protected] asking
for the copy, and I will scan a copy for you.
Jack
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:02:36 -0400, "[email protected]"
>>I have one purchased in 1970, it doesn't get much use these days as I now
>>have other stationary tools, but there are certain cuts that cannot be done
>>with any other tools and some that are not safe to do with other tools. Used
>>carelessly, as with most tools, they can be dangerous. This was my first
>>stationary power tool, bought when I was building my house. I have done
>>everything on it, and can report that they are no more dangerous than, say a
>>table saw if used properly, but like a table saw, a radial arm saw can do a
>>lot of damage if not set up properly and used with care. Some people are
>>scared of the exposed blade but with the blade guard in place it is no worse
>>than a trim saw, and for some cuts being able to see the blade can make it
>>easier to avoid the blade with your fingers.
>>====================================================================================
>>It's rather refreshing to see someone that does not say "oh my god, don't
>>even look at that thing or it will jump up and kill you". I used one for
>>years doing rip cuts, cross cuts, bevels, dadoes and even had the planing
>>cutter which worked very well. They're as safe as any other saw. Same rule
>>applies. Don't stick a body part into a moving saw.
>
>The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).
I was taught to pull the cutter head forward, insert and align the board, turn
on the saw, then PUSH the saw to make the cut. It will never try to climb over
the board to get you if you make your cuts that way, just remember to keep your
pinkies out of the way. Having said that, I must admit I don't do this _every_
time, and I have at least 5 degrees negative hook on my blade to help cut down
on the climb issue in those instances. Negative hook makes a big distance in
how aggressive the cutter head can be if you cut on the pull stroke.
I don't use my RAS as much as I used to since I made a cutoff sled and a miter
sled for my TS. I could live without it, but it does come in handy at times.
Regards,
Roy
On 10/12/2012 10:07 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> Just a quick note.
>
> I grew up around radial arm saws. Used them a lot and never knew that
> they were the fabled monsters of current lore.
>
> I probably cut a quarter mile of dadoes with radial arm saws. Quick and
> fast bookshelves and assorted modules from cheap pine. Did not have
> much money, but made some very solid furniture that is still going
> strong 30 - 40 years later.
I used one early on to build barns, stalls and in the construction of
three recording studios. Never once heard anyone say a bad word about
them prior to that, but I nonetheless had a very strong premonition of
possible danger, and a sense of the need for more than normal caution,
from my very first use, that was impossible to ignore.
... it is well to heed that little voice in the back of some of our
heads when around whirring blades and bits. :)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 10/12/2012 5:18 PM, Steve B wrote:
> I have read enough to know that I will check the serial numbers first in
> case I hit the $100 lottery. Second, I have read enough to know I am
> selling this.
>
> I mainly do metal work, just a little wood. For what wood I do, I have
> adequate tools.
>
> I have electric 4 and 4.5" grinders for metal with grinding blades and
> brushes. They are by far the nastiest most dangerous hand tool I own. If
> the thing is not held in the correct orientation of the work, the work
> launches, or the tool launches, or kicks back violently.
>
> I have perhaps a couple of hundred hours experience with these, enough to
> know all the nuances (most of them, anyway) about what NOT to do. I still
> respect them, and whenever operating one, seem to shift to another level of
> consciousness, as when entering into any dangerous place, activity, etc.
>
> Just the looks of this thing, and the direction of travel relative to the
> workpiece set off enough bells and whistles to write in about this.
>
> Anyone need one of these? Cheap?
>
> I have it on Craigslist for $25. Is that a decent price? It's old, and in
> "average" condition. All there, just dusty, needs cleaning, clearly used a
> bit.
>
> Thanks for all responses.
>
> Steve
>
>
where?
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
On 10/11/12 10:55 PM, Steve B wrote:
> Let me ask a noobie question.
>
> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
> compound miter.
>
> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the wood
> and shoot in a direction.
>
> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work, and
> safety concerns?
>
> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning it
> up and making a good base.
>
> Steve
>
>
First thing you want to do is google radial arm saw recall. Type in your
serial number. If it's a match, you'll be sent a new blade guard and
table that will make the thing much more safe to operate.
If your serial number doesn't match, put it in the dumpster while you
still have a hand. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/11/2012 10:55 PM, Steve B wrote:
> Let me ask a noobie question.
>
> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
> compound miter.
>
> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the wood
> and shoot in a direction.
>
> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work, and
> safety concerns?
>
> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning it
> up and making a good base.
>
> Steve
>
>
I have one and have had one since the early 70s. I have never
had any particular problem. You should treat them with
respect as you should any tool. When my old one died after
about 30-35 years I went out and bought a new Craftsman.
Check the Sears web site to see if you can find a downloadable
manual for your saw. If they have one you can figure out
everything you need to know.
Bill
On 10/11/2012 10:55 PM, Steve B wrote:
> Let me ask a noobie question.
>
> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
> compound miter.
>
> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the wood
> and shoot in a direction.
>
> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work, and
> safety concerns?
...
The RAS seems to bring out the critics here but imo they've mostly
bought into fear-mongering instead of real issues...
Yes, a RAS can cause an injury if you put yourself in the path of the
blade--otoh, if you put yourself in the path of the blade or a potential
missile from a TS, surprise--the same thing can happen.
A RAS is particularly good for cutoff work of long material that is
difficult or impossible on a TS; set up in a bench correctly they can
also rip and miter and at compound angles sometimes more easily than a
TS as well. Since the blade moves instead of the work except for
ripping, it makes handling larger work less effort. For crosscuts there
is the limitation of the length of arm that can be a disadvantage.
The only real problem is that one does need to learn to use one w/ some
practice--it is possible to let the head get ahead of itself if one
doesn't control the feed rate well as the proper crosscut is to start w/
the blade behind the fence and then move towards you to make the cut.
As another noted, proper blade design helps here.
As for whether to keep this particular saw or not--depends. :) Some of
the small Craftsman particularly vintage were built pretty well and are
adequate machines; unfortunately there were quite a number that also
used light round tubing that owing to the lack of heft are not very
rigid and are, for that reason, nearly impossible to set up and keep in
alignment and aren't really worth fooling with.
I'm spoiled as have an old Rockwell 16" beast built into a long
bench--it doesn't get the most use but I'd surely not even consider
parting with it...
--
Steve B wrote:
> Let me ask a noobie question.
>
> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a
> DeWalt compound miter.
>
> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the
> wood and shoot in a direction.
>
> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are
> good for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind
> of work, and safety concerns?
>
> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or
> cleaning it up and making a good base.
The first stationary power tool I had was a Craftsman RAS. Bought it about
20 years ago, still have and use it.
I've never had it grab a piece of wood and shoot it. Not if it is used
properly; i.e., wood against the fence, saw pulled forward (not pushed back
as my dumbass former father in law was wont to do). It *can* try to climb
up on the wood; that is mitigated by using a negative rake saw tooth (and by
keeping your arm stiff).
They are good for crosscutting. They are good for that because you can see
exactly where they are going to cut. Any saw blade I have ever had has one
tooth that sticks out slightly more at the side than the other teeth (two
sides = two teeth). I find and mark those teeth and line it up with where I
want to cut.
If you want to make a half lap in a long piece of wood, it is easy on the
RAS, PITA on a table saw. In fact, *any* crosscuting of long pieces is
easier on a RAS. How easy is it to whack off a foot from an 8' x 2" x 10"
piece of white oak is it on a TS? NP with a RAS.
You can crosscut wider than with a miter saw. If the RAS is set up well,
you can crosscut double the arm travel by making one cut halfway across,
flipping the board over and then cutting the other half.
_________________
You can rip with them too but that is better done on a table saw...the table
saw is meant for ripping. If you rip with it, there are two possible ways:
One is called "in" ripping, the other "out" ripping. That refers to the
direction in which the head is turned and in which the wood is pushed. Note
that in both, the wood is fed into the blade *opposite* to that when
crosscutting. Attention needs to be paid to setting the anti-kickback pawls
properly too. People seem to tremble in fear when someone mentions ripping
with a RAS; I suspect that may be because they didn't have it set up
properly for ripping.
______________
The biggest nuisance with a RAS is getting it set up properly. There are
numerous things that need to be done; all are explained in the manual so if
you don't have one, get it. Once set up it works fine but if you turn, tilt
or do anything else to the head things can get out of whack easier than with
a TS.
IMO and IME, they are handy. I'd keep it.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net
"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let me ask a noobie question.
>
> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
> compound miter.
>
> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the wood
> and shoot in a direction.
>
> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work,
> and safety concerns?
>
> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning
> it up and making a good base.
I saw a guy crosscutting a 2x12 one time with a RAS when I worked in a truss
shop and as soon as he made the cut the 12" or so cut off piece sprang open
like there was a small explosive imbedded in it. Turned out there was a 50
cal machine gun slug imbedded in the lumber and the close cross cut released
the pressure. Luckily the slug was not hit by a blade in the field, mill or
shop. The tree could have been on a military gun range somewhere before
being harvested. Point is you can't always be sure how lumber's going to
react when cut. One probably won't see any slugs imbedded but I've seen
hidden knots do strange things also. If a RAS seems to want to grab the
stock you'd be smart to step back and let it have it. Also your blade might
be duller than you realize and that also can cause the saw to grab lumber.
On 10/12/2012 11:42 AM, HeyBub wrote:
...
> One significant plus for a RAS is its accuracy, which really comes into play
> with cabinetry and the like.
_ONLY_ if it is solid enough to be so...unfortunately, many of the
low-priced Craftsman and the ilk aren't...whether OP's is or not is
indeterminate w/o knowledge of specifics of model.
--
On 10/12/2012 12:12 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 10/12/2012 11:42 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> One significant plus for a RAS is its accuracy, which really comes
>>> into play with cabinetry and the like.
>>
>> _ONLY_ if it is solid enough to be so...unfortunately, many of the
>> low-priced Craftsman and the ilk aren't...whether OP's is or not is
>> indeterminate w/o knowledge of specifics of model.
>>
> Yep, a lot of the cheaper saws will cut accurately, if you do lots of
> setup and babysitting. And if you get it zeroed in, it can lose its
> setting very quickly.
...
The problem w/ a lot of the inexpensive ones is that the arm and
particularly the yoke are simply not stout enough to prevent movement
during the cut.
I'd guess it was more likely the arm out of alignment w/ the table
surface rather than actually physically bowed on the previous occasion.
Although the arm connection and yoke is often a weak point, generally
the arm itself is pretty solid and would take quite a lot to actually
bend. OTOH, there were at least some that had basically just a round
tube that I've not actually used one of--one of those might possibly
happen I suppose.
The lighter saws also tend to come w/ nothing more substantial than a
sheet of 3/4" particle board as a table. Speaking of which, for
OP--after you've got the thing set up, if the original owner didn't, add
a sacrificial surface to the main table--saves redoing the whole thing
nearly as frequently.
The beast here has 2" beech as the actual table and I keep a 1/2" ply on
it as the working surface that can quickly be replaced for precision
work. For ordinary cutoff work that is its normal function it doesn't
matter much so it gets pretty munged up w/ time...
--
I have read enough to know that I will check the serial numbers first in
case I hit the $100 lottery. Second, I have read enough to know I am
selling this.
I mainly do metal work, just a little wood. For what wood I do, I have
adequate tools.
I have electric 4 and 4.5" grinders for metal with grinding blades and
brushes. They are by far the nastiest most dangerous hand tool I own. If
the thing is not held in the correct orientation of the work, the work
launches, or the tool launches, or kicks back violently.
I have perhaps a couple of hundred hours experience with these, enough to
know all the nuances (most of them, anyway) about what NOT to do. I still
respect them, and whenever operating one, seem to shift to another level of
consciousness, as when entering into any dangerous place, activity, etc.
Just the looks of this thing, and the direction of travel relative to the
workpiece set off enough bells and whistles to write in about this.
Anyone need one of these? Cheap?
I have it on Craigslist for $25. Is that a decent price? It's old, and in
"average" condition. All there, just dusty, needs cleaning, clearly used a
bit.
Thanks for all responses.
Steve
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:25:22 -0700, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
...
> The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).
Only if you put yourself in front of it--I've never seen one jump
entirely off the rail and come across the floor. Just as one should
never push thru a TS from in line w/ the blade--there's no difference.
--
On 10/12/2012 7:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 19:08:22 -0500, dpb<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:25:22 -0700, "CW"<[email protected]> wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).
>>
>> Only if you put yourself in front of it--I've never seen one jump
>> entirely off the rail and come across the floor. Just as one should
>> never push thru a TS from in line w/ the blade--there's no difference.
>
> There's a *big* difference. One moves, the other doesn't.
Irrelevant--it only moves into the operator if the operator is in the
path. The operator can just as put the hand in the wrong place and push
as he can put the hand in the wrong place and pull.
--
"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have read enough to know that I will check the serial numbers first in
>case I hit the $100 lottery. Second, I have read enough to know I am
>selling this.
I checked, and I have 113, with a 2 beginning the rest of the number. One
of the recalled ones. I just picked up a Franklin instead of the $25 I WAS
going to sell it for.
Now I can send in that order for pool cue repair stuff I've been saving for.
Thanks for the tip. I love the Internet.
Steve
Roy wrote:
>> The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).
>
> I was taught to pull the cutter head forward, insert and align the
> board, turn on the saw, then PUSH the saw to make the cut. It will
> never try to climb over the board to get you if you make your cuts
> that way, just remember to keep your pinkies out of the way. Having
> said that, I must admit I don't do this _every_ time, and I have at
> least 5 degrees negative hook on my blade to help cut down on the
> climb issue in those instances. Negative hook makes a big distance
> in how aggressive the cutter head can be if you cut on the pull
> stroke.
Unless your blade is rotating opposite to everyone elses, your saw won't try
to climb regardless of the hook when you push rather than pull. What it
will do is try to lift the workpiece and pull it up and away from the fence.
IOW, someone taught you wrong.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 10/15/12 6:11 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Roy wrote:
>
>>> The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).
>>
>> I was taught to pull the cutter head forward, insert and align the
>> board, turn on the saw, then PUSH the saw to make the cut. It will
>> never try to climb over the board to get you if you make your cuts
>> that way, just remember to keep your pinkies out of the way. Having
>> said that, I must admit I don't do this _every_ time, and I have at
>> least 5 degrees negative hook on my blade to help cut down on the
>> climb issue in those instances. Negative hook makes a big distance
>> in how aggressive the cutter head can be if you cut on the pull
>> stroke.
>
> Unless your blade is rotating opposite to everyone elses, your saw won't try
> to climb regardless of the hook when you push rather than pull. What it
> will do is try to lift the workpiece and pull it up and away from the fence.
> IOW, someone taught you wrong.
>
I agree. I think whoever taught that was (from fear) inventing a
solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and in the process, made it
more dangerous.
My suggestion is to never use a tool that makes you that afraid to use
it. Caution is a good thing to have around power tools, but fear is not.
This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
saw... possibly less so.
In order to be used safely, every power saw should be of good quality,
be set up/tuned up properly, have a quality, sharp blade, appropriate
for its use, and be used with proper, safe technique.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/15/12 5:24 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 10/15/2012 5:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
>>> bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
>>> saw... possibly less so.
>>
>> I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on
>> rails, and kickback (if
>> any) is directed *away* from the operator.
>
> Assuming that you only cross cut. I built a lot of furniture with one
> and ripped a lot of wood with one. You can get kick back/so to speak in
> that operation. But with proper procedure and set up that can be
> prevented.
>
You basically repeated what I wrote. :-p
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/15/2012 5:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
>> bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
>> saw... possibly less so.
>
> I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on rails, and kickback (if
> any) is directed *away* from the operator....
The significant difference in a RAS crosscutting is that one is
climb-cutting so it is possible for the saw to want to accelerate
towards the operator. The workpiece if does somehow get above the fence
will go away from the operator, true, but the carriage may well head the
other way.
Again, this isn't inherently any more dangerous than the TS in that if
you don't have flesh in front of it, it ain't jumpin' off the rail to
come get you but you can't be careless any more than you can be w/ a TS
(or bandsaw or ...)
It is, however, different and the relative few around any longer
contributes only that much more to the urban lore I think...
--
On 10/15/12 5:51 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 10/15/2012 5:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 10/15/12 5:24 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 10/15/2012 5:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
>>>>> bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any
>>>>> other
>>>>> saw... possibly less so.
>>>>
>>>> I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on
>>>> rails, and kickback (if
>>>> any) is directed *away* from the operator.
>>>
>>> Assuming that you only cross cut. I built a lot of furniture with one
>>> and ripped a lot of wood with one. You can get kick back/so to speak in
>>> that operation. But with proper procedure and set up that can be
>>> prevented.
>>>
>>
>> You basically repeated what I wrote. :-p
>>
>>
>
>
> Yeah but I as addressing Doug's comment about the wood being stationary
> and kickback, if any, being away from the operator. Not true when
> ripping, just the opposite in fact.
>
> I think most people think of the RAS as only being useful as cross cut
> machine. Alternatively many think of a TS as only a ripping machine.
I think very few people rip with it. I've ripped with mine and it was no
more dangerous than the table saw. It has a splitter and anti-kickback
teeth. I don't think the older designs had these, which might explain a
couple off the reasons for the recall.
Most RAS I see on Craigslist are missing limbs waiting to happen. No
guard at all, no fence, certainly no splitter or teeth. Just a big,
open, spinning saw blade on a motor.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/15/12 6:06 PM, dpb wrote:
> The significant difference in a RAS crosscutting is that one is
> climb-cutting so it is possible for the saw to want to accelerate
> towards the operator.
The likely outcome is that the teeth would dig into the wood and the
motor would stall.
If there is a RAS out there that is flimsy enough to allow the blade to
lift the arm up, I could see it happening, but not likely. I have seen
one or two in ads that looked pretty darn flimsy, but I would guess
something of such poor quality would also have a weak motor which would
probably stall.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
> The Wood Manufacturing Technology program at Cerritos College here
> in SoCal has an old radial arm saw that they keep around just to show how
> dangerous the beast can be.
>
> The only thing they use it for is to cross cut rough stock to rough
> length before proceding with finishing blanks to size.
----------------------------------------------------
For the record, it's a 12" unit that has a many years on it.
The fact they only have one unit and it is restricted to cross cutting
rough stock to rough length as the first step to size rough cut stock to
size should tell you something.
...
A) I really don't believe the reason given above has much at all to do
w/ it still being there.
B) It tells me they understand where it excels and have far less length
of time spent in starting new projects from rough, large stock than in
the later fabrication stages. That somehow doesn't seem hard to imagine.
It also indicates they don't do a lot of really large,
architectural-style or framing work. Somehow I'm not surprised by that,
either.
C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes it
may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part with it.
It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when needed and
nothing else takes its place.
--
On 10/15/2012 7:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 10/15/12 6:06 PM, dpb wrote:
>> The significant difference in a RAS crosscutting is that one is
>> climb-cutting so it is possible for the saw to want to accelerate
>> towards the operator.
>
> The likely outcome is that the teeth would dig into the wood and the
> motor would stall.
...
You've not been around an Original Saw Company 16" or the equivalent,
then...it _may_ stall but I'll guar-on-tee you'll pucker a bunch and not
forget it if (or, more accurately, when) it happens. :)
--
"Steve Barker" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> where?
Never mind. I called today, and they will be sending me the box to ship the
carcass back, and send me the check for $100.
Steve
-MIKE- wrote:
> I think very few people rip with it. I've ripped with mine and it was
> no more dangerous than the table saw.
I ripped a lot with mine. There are two sort of "gotchas" that one needs to
consider...
1. The motor unit is always more or less in the way
2. More importantly, unlike a table saw, the blade is above the workpiece.
If it rises for any reason - chip on the table, tilt, whatever - the blade
can and will easily catch it and that can create considerable havoc if the
kickback pawls are not properly set. Particularly true with thin stock.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 10/16/2012 2:19 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
...
>
>> B) It tells me they understand where it excels and have far less
>> length of time spent in starting new projects from rough, large
>> stock than in the later fabrication stages. That somehow doesn't
>> seem hard to imagine.
> --------------------------------------------
> ALL projects start with the development of a rough stock list.
Indeed, but "far less length of time [is] spent" roughing out than is
required in the rest of the milling operations. Ergo, it doesn't take
nearly as many machines to provide the needed capacity.
It doesn't follow that it is any less important a portion of the work,
however, only that that portion can be accomplished in a (relatively)
short span.
> The ONLY function of the RAS is to cross cut rough stock to length.
> ------------------------------------------
>> It also indicates they don't do a lot of really large,
>> architectural-style or framing work. Somehow I'm not surprised by
>> that, either.
> ----------------------------------------
> I guess "Large" is open to some interpretation.
Indeed, but if were handling 12-, 16-quarter material of 8" and wider
and 10-plus feet long as a piece of work, the TS would find as little
application as the RAS does now.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes
>> it may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part
>> with it. It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when
>> needed and nothing else takes its place.
> ---------------------------------------
> In a modern facility such as the one WMT provides, that RAS stands
> out as one of the "Last of the Mohicans".
>
> It provides no function that can't be accomplished by other means.
See above--for large material that is essentially impossible to move
across a TS it is invaluable as well as for the routine crosscut.
Once one gets something down to a manageable size, then the TS can
handle it, certainly.
Or, of course, if one is comfortable w/ the RAS, it can do what the TS
can w/ very few exceptions and some things that conversely cannot be
done at all conveniently w/ a TS. OTOH, most folks now w/ the advent of
the large router do many of those that way or large shops have other
dedicated machines...
Again, if you don't like it, fine...I'll be retaining mine anyways. :)
--
On 10/16/12 6:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> I think very few people rip with it. I've ripped with mine and it was
>> no more dangerous than the table saw.
>
> I ripped a lot with mine. There are two sort of "gotchas" that one needs to
> consider...
>
> 1. The motor unit is always more or less in the way
>
> 2. More importantly, unlike a table saw, the blade is above the workpiece.
> If it rises for any reason - chip on the table, tilt, whatever - the blade
> can and will easily catch it and that can create considerable havoc if the
> kickback pawls are not properly set. Particularly true with thin stock.
>
1st... as I wrote in my first post in this thread... there is always,
with any tool, the caveat of being "properly set."
2nd... I agree that it's not the tool for ripping. It's also not the
tool for sanding, or drilling, and grinding, etc., even though it can do
all those things.
I agree with those calling it a cut-off saw. It should be treated that
way. Even thought it can do those other things, it's not the best, or
even 2nd best, tool for those jobs.
For me, it's in the same category as a shopsmith. A shopsmith can do all
the things it does, but not nearly as well as individual tools. It may
actually do one thing very well (like a RAS), but the other things
suffer. It takes longer to convert the thing to another task than it
would to move to a different tool. From the prices I've seen for new
shopsmiths, one could get individual tools for separate tasks.
For 11 years I worked in the same building that houses a public
broadcasting station. The studio's set master had a shopsmith. I would
go up there and watch him take forever to get lumber and sheet goods
from rough sizes, through the cut-list, into finished pieces, ready for
assembly.
Every year, after the new budgets rolled around, I would go up to his
shop and see another power tool. First a CMS, then a table saw, then a
jointer, then a drill press, then a router, etc, etc, etc. At the end of
my 11 years, the shopsmith was collecting dust and he had a shop full of
individual tools. I think he still used to the shopsmith as a lathe for
occasional turning.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/16/2012 11:50 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> I guess "Large" is open to some interpretation.
> ---------------------------------------------
> "dpb" wrote:
>
>> Indeed, but if were handling 12-, 16-quarter material of 8" and
>> wider and 10-plus feet long as a piece of work, the TS would find as
>> little application as the RAS does now.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Working with that size stock on a production basis would be done with
> power feed equipment, not manual feed as provided with a RAS.
Maybe, maybe not. I've seen both and I have had power feeder on mine on
occasion ripping heavy stock...and can still move it form the shaper
over there if the need arose.
> For the home hobbyist, there are other ways including but not limited
> to a band saw.
Well, you weren't talking home hobbyist above, certainly...and how do
you propose moving the material through the bandsaw any better than
across a TS and what's the odds the home hobbyist has the BS that could
handle it, anyway?
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes
> it may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part
> with it. It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when
> needed and nothing else takes its place.
> ---------------------------------------
> Sentimental value is tough to define.
Nonsense. It has a definite advantage and does things 10" TS simply
can't hack (the blade depth won't even do a standard 4x4, for heaven's
sake w/o flipping the stock) not to mention again trying to cross cut
long stock on a TS is far more dangerous and aggravating than a RAS ever
thought of being.
> As an add on piece of equipment for the typical hobbyist or even
> a small one man shop, a RAS just doesn't cut it IMHO.
Again, speak for yourself. IM(NS)HO if one deals w/ sizable stuff on
any frequency at all and has the room it's well worth having around. As
for the shop, it all depends on the type of work a shop does routinely.
And, for the individual, it's always the possibility as the one-piece
does it all tool for a constrained size/budget. As at least one other
noted here, that's the way I began lo! those many years ago and did
quite a lot of work (some even pretty respectable after a few years :) )
with it long before ever had a TS. The TS was the one that I could do
without.
It helps, of course, to have the room for the 16" behemoth but there's
still the old DeWalt 10" of Dad's around that could handle quite a lot
of the size of thing the normal wooddorker would expect to see very
nicely...I could part with it but I'll never part w/ the large one.
--
On 10/16/2012 7:11 AM, basilisk wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 19:26:46 -0500, dpb wrote:
...
>>
>> You've not been around an Original Saw Company 16" or the equivalent,
>> then...it _may_ stall but I'll guar-on-tee you'll pucker a bunch and not
>> forget it if (or, more accurately, when) it happens. :)
>
> Company I work for has as many as a dozen of the 16" and 20"
> RAS, some originals and some not.
>
> They can be choked down on 4x12 green hardwood timbers, but it
> isn't a given on anything smaller, and it is an event to remember.
>
> For the record, it would be difficult to find anything to replace these
> saws for the work we do and injuries are rare to nonexistant.
>
> They can and are used safely, same as any other machine,
> keep your parts out of the path of its parts.
+1 on 3 points each...
--
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Steve B" wrote:
>
>> Let me ask a noobie question.
>>
>> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
>> compound miter.
>>
>> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the
>> wood and shoot in a direction.
>>
>> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
>> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work,
>> and safety concerns?
>>
>> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning
>> it up and making a good base.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> The Wood Manufacturing Technology program at Cerritos College here in
> SoCal
> has an old radial arm saw that they keep around just to show how dangerous
> the beast can be.
>
> The only thing they use it for is to cross cut rough stock to rough length
> before proceding with finishing blanks to size.
>
> IMHO, I'd cut it up and throw it in the dump, before I hurt myself.
>
> <Flame suit on>
If the user intends to rip with it, I agree on getting rid of it. If
cross cutting and mitering is the only use, it is worth its weight to keep
around.
--
Jim in NC
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10/15/12 6:11 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Roy wrote:
>>
>>>> The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).
>>>
>>> I was taught to pull the cutter head forward, insert and align the
>>> board, turn on the saw, then PUSH the saw to make the cut. It will
>>> never try to climb over the board to get you if you make your cuts
>>> that way, just remember to keep your pinkies out of the way. Having
>>> said that, I must admit I don't do this _every_ time, and I have at
>>> least 5 degrees negative hook on my blade to help cut down on the
>>> climb issue in those instances. Negative hook makes a big distance
>>> in how aggressive the cutter head can be if you cut on the pull
>>> stroke.
>>
>> Unless your blade is rotating opposite to everyone elses, your saw won't
>> try
>> to climb regardless of the hook when you push rather than pull. What it
>> will do is try to lift the workpiece and pull it up and away from the
>> fence.
>> IOW, someone taught you wrong.
>>
>
> I agree. I think whoever taught that was (from fear) inventing a
> solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and in the process, made it
> more dangerous.
>
> My suggestion is to never use a tool that makes you that afraid to use
> it. Caution is a good thing to have around power tools, but fear is not.
>
> This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
> bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
> saw... possibly less so.
>
> In order to be used safely, every power saw should be of good quality,
> be set up/tuned up properly, have a quality, sharp blade, appropriate
> for its use, and be used with proper, safe technique.
Another important part of the picture is how to cut wood that is not
completely straight. The board must lie flat on the table and be supported
at the stop, or fence, at the point where the board goes through the wood.
There is a way to turn every piece to satisfy that condition. If not, the
motor can jump or bind just as the last bit of wood is being cut.
--
Jim in NC
Hi Steve,
Radial arm saws are great for general utility work, especially with long
stock that won't require extreme accuracy. I used to work for a local county
government's recreation and parks service. We had one that was set into a
long "Home made" table, with various jig stops built into the table. What we
used it for primarily was cutting large quantities of boards for picnic
table parts. The thing was a workhorse, which is what is was bought for. The
level of accuracy was limited by the vary nature of the design, (there is
always a degree of flex in the head, and variation in angle accuracy) so
don't expect to do finish cabinetry with it. It is good for getting your
long stock down to more reasonable lengths, or finish length for rough
projects.
I think the main advantage of the radial saw is that the board gets placed,
and the saw does the moving. To realize this advantage, imagine moving a LOT
of 4"x4"x16' boards on a standard table saw. Hardly something I would want
to attempt. But I could trim them to a more reasonable length, and then do
my finish cuts on the table saw. For the normal use though, the part is
probably going to be of a nature that does not require extreme accuracy or
finish. And the radial saw will allow some easy shaping of the ends of
boards for sign posts etc..
It is also good for making a host of other "rough" projects a lot easier.
Think in terms of sign posts, picnic tables, playground equipment, landscape
boxes, planters or any other project that does not require extreme accuracy
or cut finish. Not that you can't do a fairly decent job on these projects
with one of these saws. In the right hands, they can turn out some very nice
work. For most of the finer work, like interior trim moldings and such, a
compound slide miter is vastly superior, and normally much more mobile. Plus
the level of accuracy in terms of angle accuracy and repeatability is vastly
superior.
Once again, it is a matter of using the right tool for the right job. For
the work we did in park maintenance, I wouldn't be without a radial arm saw.
It is simply the best for the jobs we had to perform. They are powerful
reliable work horses. And I can assure you that I have cut hundreds of parts
a day for years on end, using wet ground contact lumber using one of them.
They can take the work that is borderline wood butcher abuse! For a cabinet
maker, probably not so much, and for fine furniture, don't even waste your
time trying.
I don't know what you are looking for as far as direction on using the saw,
as I don't know your application. Get a copy of the manufacturers
directions, read them, and respect the safety precautions. The first time
that blade digs in and tries to ride up on that board, stuff goes bad real
fast! Enough said! Know the tool you are using before you turn it on. These
things are NOT toys! They have more power than you are likely going to
control if you are not using it properly. I'm not even going to attempt to
remember all the details about setup and use. It's been 20+ years since I've
used one. I do know that our supervisor required every operator to sit down
in front of him while you read THE ENTIRE BOOK, cover to cover, before you
were allowed to touch the thing. And you didn't get that opportunity until
he was reasonably sure that you were mature and reliable on the job. They
are that dangerous when used improperly. He was so serious that it was
common knowledge that his policy was automatic 5 day suspension if you
touched it without compliance to initial permission, or any/all safety
procedures.
Once you know what you are doing, that thing will perform an amazing amount
of work for you. Just don't ever get too hurried, lazy or tired while using
it. It bites real hard, fast and serious!
On 10/15/2012 5:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 10/15/12 5:24 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 10/15/2012 5:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
>>>> bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any
>>>> other
>>>> saw... possibly less so.
>>>
>>> I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on
>>> rails, and kickback (if
>>> any) is directed *away* from the operator.
>>
>> Assuming that you only cross cut. I built a lot of furniture with one
>> and ripped a lot of wood with one. You can get kick back/so to speak in
>> that operation. But with proper procedure and set up that can be
>> prevented.
>>
>
> You basically repeated what I wrote. :-p
>
>
Yeah but I as addressing Doug's comment about the wood being stationary
and kickback, if any, being away from the operator. Not true when
ripping, just the opposite in fact.
I think most people think of the RAS as only being useful as cross cut
machine. Alternatively many think of a TS as only a ripping machine.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:25:22 -0700, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>"EXT" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>
>"Bill Gill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 10/11/2012 10:55 PM, Steve B wrote:
>>> Let me ask a noobie question.
>>>
>>> I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
>>> compound miter.
>>>
>>> I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the
>>> wood
>>> and shoot in a direction.
>>>
>>> Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
>>> for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work,
>>> and
>>> safety concerns?
>>>
>>> Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning
>>> it
>>> up and making a good base.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>> I have one and have had one since the early 70s. I have never
>> had any particular problem. You should treat them with
>> respect as you should any tool. When my old one died after
>> about 30-35 years I went out and bought a new Craftsman.
>>
>> Check the Sears web site to see if you can find a downloadable
>> manual for your saw. If they have one you can figure out
>> everything you need to know.
>>
>I have one purchased in 1970, it doesn't get much use these days as I now
>have other stationary tools, but there are certain cuts that cannot be done
>with any other tools and some that are not safe to do with other tools. Used
>carelessly, as with most tools, they can be dangerous. This was my first
>stationary power tool, bought when I was building my house. I have done
>everything on it, and can report that they are no more dangerous than, say a
>table saw if used properly, but like a table saw, a radial arm saw can do a
>lot of damage if not set up properly and used with care. Some people are
>scared of the exposed blade but with the blade guard in place it is no worse
>than a trim saw, and for some cuts being able to see the blade can make it
>easier to avoid the blade with your fingers.
>====================================================================================
>It's rather refreshing to see someone that does not say "oh my god, don't
>even look at that thing or it will jump up and kill you". I used one for
>years doing rip cuts, cross cuts, bevels, dadoes and even had the planing
>cutter which worked very well. They're as safe as any other saw. Same rule
>applies. Don't stick a body part into a moving saw.
The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).