Cherry Flooring Color Change Questions

"MT" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi folks:
>
> I'm having problems figuring out what to do regarding finishing a
> cherry floor I had installed in a house I'm having built. The issue
> of course concerns how dark the floor will end up. I've also ordered
> cherry doors and casings. The builder is encouraging me to stain the
> floor casings and doors, and I'm leaning toward just applying a clear
> coat finish of some kind, which is what I envisioned in the first
> place.
>
No matter what you do, it won't match. Heck, the various pieces of cherry
won't match; not much chance you will ever match pine and cherry. Try not
to worry about it.
Either stain the windows to the approximate color of dark cherry, or wait
three years and stain the windows then.

I suppose you could combine the two strategies and stain the window lightly
now, and a bit darker in three years. I wouldn't consider staining the
cherry now; if you wanted to do that you should have used stained maple.

Toller wrote:
> "MT" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > I'm having problems figuring out what to do regarding finishing a
> > cherry floor I had installed in a house I'm having built. The issue
> > of course concerns how dark the floor will end up. I've also ordered
> > cherry doors and casings. The builder is encouraging me to stain the
> > floor casings and doors, and I'm leaning toward just applying a clear
> > coat finish of some kind, which is what I envisioned in the first
> > place.
> >
> No matter what you do, it won't match. Heck, the various pieces of cherry
> won't match; not much chance you will ever match pine and cherry. Try not
> to worry about it.
> Either stain the windows to the approximate color of dark cherry, or wait
> three years and stain the windows then.
>
> I suppose you could combine the two strategies and stain the window lightly
> now, and a bit darker in three years. I wouldn't consider staining the
> cherry now; if you wanted to do that you should have used stained maple.

The builder is trying to sell you on something that will match now.
Question is, how long do you plan on living in the house? If you're in
it for the long run, I think Toller's two-step approach would be how
I'd approach it. I'd go with the clear/sealer coat first and take it
from there. If you used an oil based poly on the pine windows, that
would amber over time and probably keep pace with the cherry up to a
point.

As far as not putting in furniture and such, unless you have big mofo
lights with daylight bulbs that you can leave on 24/7 for weeks, I
wouldn't worry about it too much. There will always be color, wear and
other discrepancies in flooring, and it really shouldn't matter to you
what's going on under a rug unless you're in the habit of rearranging
furniture frequently.

R

You can take a freshly milled, unfinished piece of cherry, put it
outside on a summer day with a business card on it, and see some
sunburn in an hour or so. If the piece has finish on it, it takes
longer. Exposure to light, both direct and reflected will cause the
color to darken. Exposure to oxygen will cause it to darken. I have
pieces in my shop that are several years old, and have been burried
down on a stack, but show a lot of darkening. If you don't want a lot
of dark and light shadow marks on your floor, move things around every
month or so. The lighter marks will even out eventually. If you leave a
rug down for a couple of years, it will leave a noticable mark that
will be hard to blend in. Most of the darkening happens over the first
year or three, then it slows down a lot.
robo hippy

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 14:40:54 -0500, "Stephen M"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> One reason the builder is encouraging me to stain some of the cherry
>> is the Anderson 400 series windows. They have a pine wood on the
>> inside of the windows and the builder wants to try to stain the pine
>> to match the cherry casings, which makes sense.
>
>You may get it to the same color, but pine not cherry and it will only look
>similar, not the same.
>
>> His point on that is
>> that if I just clear coat the casings they are going to change color
>> in a way that he can't predict, and therefore he doesn't know how to
>> stain the pine on the windows.
>
>Can you wait six months to finish the window casings? Or estimate my
>matching to a clear-coated mature (aged) cherry sample rather than your
>virgin cherry.
>
I certainly could wait; the only issue is getting the builder's
attention six months down the road to do the job. I suspect he won't
wait that long for his final payment, and after he has been fully paid
I suspect it will be hard to get him to send someone back. I suppose
I could have a 3rd party come in and do the staining if necessary.


>> What I'm thinking right now is to just clear coat the floor and doors
>> (any suggestions on whether polyurethane or something like Minwax is
>> better for this purpose would be appreciated),
>
>Minwax is a brand name, They make all kinds finishing materials including
>stains and both oil and water-based polys.
>
>>and allow the casings
>> to be stained so that the pine in the window frames can be stained to
>> match. I'm assuming that if the wood is stained it will darken even
>> more over time and would always be darker than the floor will ever
>> get.
>
>Which wood?

I was referring to the stained cherry casings.

>
>>
>> Lastly, I've heard various things about how natural cherry darkens.
>> Is it the UV that causes the darkening, or just light in general?
>
>UV IIRC oxygen plays a role too.
>
>> If
>> it's just light in general I was wondering if I should leave the
>> lights on for a few weeks (24 hours a day) after the floor is
>> finished, before I move in and put rugs and furniture over the floor,
>> or if that would make no appreciable difference.
>
>I don't think that it is practical, you owill still end up with shadow lines
>because the color change will continue for a long time.
>If you move the rug later, you will just have to wait a couple months for
>things to even out.
>
>> I've heard various
>> things about how quickly this color change occurs, which range from
>> being noticeable in just a few days (e.g. if you put something on a
>> freshly finished floor like a business card you can see the outline of
>> the card on the floor after it's removed in just a few days time) to
>> months to be noticeable.
>
>Both are probably true. The business card trick might be detectable in
>direct sun. It could also take months to tell the difference if before and
>after are not right next to one another.
>
>I have some cherry furniture in my livingroom that I made about a year ago
>and six months later made a TV pedistal to match. When I brought The TV
>pedistal in, It looked really blond by comparison. It's been about six
>months and don't notice much of a difference anymore. There are natural
>variations between individual trees. It's normal to see some variation
>anyway.
>
>> Unfortunately there are all kinds of comments and advice out there
>> about this issue and much of it is conflicting.
>>
>> Comments and suggestions welcome. Also any suggestions on the best
>> finishing products to protect the relatively soft floor from damage
>> (e.g. multiple coats, etc.) would be appreciated.
>>
>>
>> MT
>>
>>
>
Thanks for the response. From what you and the others have said it
would seem that my best bet is to not stain any of the cherry, but
just clear coat it; and try to stain the pine around the windows some
color of cherry, even if it doesn't match exactly, so that they don't
just turn more and more yellow over time. Do you have any thoughts
on what I should use to clear coat the cherry? From reading some of
the old posts in this newsgroup I gather that there are three issues.
First, some of the clearcoat finishes can yellow over time more than
others. Second, a satin finish will show marks on the floor less than
gloss or semi-gloss. Lastly, someone posted that the high gloss
finish makes the floor harder than the others and he suggested that a
coat of high gloss be put down first, and then followed by a coat of
whatever kind of final finish you want on the floor.


Thanks,

MT

> One reason the builder is encouraging me to stain some of the cherry
> is the Anderson 400 series windows. They have a pine wood on the
> inside of the windows and the builder wants to try to stain the pine
> to match the cherry casings, which makes sense.

You may get it to the same color, but pine not cherry and it will only look
similar, not the same.

> His point on that is
> that if I just clear coat the casings they are going to change color
> in a way that he can't predict, and therefore he doesn't know how to
> stain the pine on the windows.

Can you wait six months to finish the window casings? Or estimate my
matching to a clear-coated mature (aged) cherry sample rather than your
virgin cherry.

> What I'm thinking right now is to just clear coat the floor and doors
> (any suggestions on whether polyurethane or something like Minwax is
> better for this purpose would be appreciated),

Minwax is a brand name, They make all kinds finishing materials including
stains and both oil and water-based polys.

>and allow the casings
> to be stained so that the pine in the window frames can be stained to
> match. I'm assuming that if the wood is stained it will darken even
> more over time and would always be darker than the floor will ever
> get.

Which wood?

>
> Lastly, I've heard various things about how natural cherry darkens.
> Is it the UV that causes the darkening, or just light in general?

UV IIRC oxygen plays a role too.

> If
> it's just light in general I was wondering if I should leave the
> lights on for a few weeks (24 hours a day) after the floor is
> finished, before I move in and put rugs and furniture over the floor,
> or if that would make no appreciable difference.

I don't think that it is practical, you owill still end up with shadow lines
because the color change will continue for a long time.
If you move the rug later, you will just have to wait a couple months for
things to even out.

> I've heard various
> things about how quickly this color change occurs, which range from
> being noticeable in just a few days (e.g. if you put something on a
> freshly finished floor like a business card you can see the outline of
> the card on the floor after it's removed in just a few days time) to
> months to be noticeable.

Both are probably true. The business card trick might be detectable in
direct sun. It could also take months to tell the difference if before and
after are not right next to one another.

I have some cherry furniture in my livingroom that I made about a year ago
and six months later made a TV pedistal to match. When I brought The TV
pedistal in, It looked really blond by comparison. It's been about six
months and don't notice much of a difference anymore. There are natural
variations between individual trees. It's normal to see some variation
anyway.

> Unfortunately there are all kinds of comments and advice out there
> about this issue and much of it is conflicting.
>
> Comments and suggestions welcome. Also any suggestions on the best
> finishing products to protect the relatively soft floor from damage
> (e.g. multiple coats, etc.) would be appreciated.
>
>
> MT
>
>

> I certainly could wait; the only issue is getting the builder's
> attention six months down the road to do the job. I suspect he won't
> wait that long for his final payment, and after he has been fully paid
> I suspect it will be hard to get him to send someone back. I suppose
> I could have a 3rd party come in and do the staining if necessary.

Bottom line, it's a moving target. I'd stain (the pine) to match today,
cheating towards darker.... if it really bugs you 2 years down the road,
it's possible to add more finish with color mixed into the clearcoat. This
is called toning. It's best done with spray equipment because even
application is critical.

> >and allow the casings
>> to be stained so that the pine in the window frames can be stained to
>> match.

> I was referring to the stained cherry casings.
>

OK , now I'm with you. That's a really bad option. If you take stain X and
apply it to two different types of wood (cherry and pine) the results will
look different. Probably a little less differnt than naked, but not much.
It ain't paint.

'round here *nobody* is going to say stain cherry. It's understood to be
heresy.

> Thanks for the response. From what you and the others have said it
> would seem that my best bet is to not stain any of the cherry, but
> just clear coat it; and try to stain the pine around the windows some
> color of cherry, even if it doesn't match exactly, so that they don't
> just turn more and more yellow over time.

Don't sweat the ambering too much. Cherry is basically Orange-brown. Yellow
is already present there and it will just alter the tone a little bit in a
compatible sort of way.

Ambering is a much bigger deal if you have otherwise nake maple which is
basically white. White+yellow = yellow. Yuck.

> Second, a satin finish will show marks on the floor less than
> gloss or semi-gloss.

IMNSHO, Gloss looks nice on a gymnasium... not much else.

Lastly, someone posted that the high gloss
> finish makes the floor harder than the others and he suggested that a
> coat of high gloss be put down first, and then followed by a coat of
> whatever kind of final finish you want on the floor.

Absolutely correct. Satin is just gloss with "stuff" added to scatter the
light. Only the last coat needs a flattening agent to affect sheen.


Cheers,

Steve

MT wrote:

When I installed my cherry HW floor, I was specifically told NOT to
stain it. I wiped on a product called 'Duraseal' then 3 coats of
'Varathane'. After 10 years, the floor has darkened to a beautiful
reddish brown. You can try to match the frames, but if they match now,
they won't later.

Rob
>