On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:50:44 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com>
wrote:
> Since I got it, my 60-1/2 is
>my most-used plane
Agreed.
I gave up on auctions, Stanley and Record low angle block planes kept
hitting $40-50. Figuring that I'd add a Hock iron anyway, I dropped
the extra $10 and bought a new Veritas low angle block.
I'm a happy guy.
Barry
Hi Dave,
I'm not really sure of the answer about the long plane and smoothing issue,
but I can highly recommend the Veritas low angle block plane. It's a
wonderful tool and I use it all the time. If you want to go all out, the
Lie-Nielsen one is probably better in fit and finish, but I doubt it
performs all that much better in use than the Veritas.
Mike
"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Frank, I don't understand why a longer plane doesn't smooth. Also, you
> didn't mention Veritas planes. Any particular reason or do you not own
> any of that brand? I'm thinking of getting a low angle block plane
> soon... Thanks!
>
> dave
>
> Frank McVey wrote:
>
> > Yes, why not? As previous posters have indicated, go for a #5, or even
> > better still, a #5 1/2. Reason is that a plane does 2 things - it
flattens
> > a surface, and it makes it smooth. The shorter the plane, the more
quickly
> > it will smooth. The longer the plane, the better it will flatten. I
would
> > choose a #5 (long) over a #4 (short) because a #5 will smooth better
than a
> > #4 will flatten.
> >
> > As regards popular brands, my preference - if cost is no object - would
be:
> >
> > Karl Holtey - the hand-made metal plane par excellence. You'd be
looking at
> > one of the A1 series of panel planes to equate to the #5 lengthwise.
Simply
> > outstanding in every respect, except for price, which is outrageous -
you're
> > talking in the several thousands of dollars rather than the mere
hundreds.
> > Only a very rich man or a high-earning craftsman at the peak of his
craft
> > would buy one.
> >
> > Lie-Nielsen - terrific quality, still expensive, but much more
affordable
> > than K-H
> >
> > Clifton - Great quality and about 1/2 the price of L-N, but much more
than
> > 1/2 the quality. Probably the best value for money in up-market planes,
> > IMHO. You can also get thick Stay-set irons.
> >
> > Stanley (US, Old). Good workmanlike planes, which may need a little bit
of
> > attention and tuning.
> >
> > Record (UK, Old). Good workmanlike clones of Stanley, but, by
consensus,
> > not quite as good quality. Will need some tuning to get the best from
them.
> > Once tuned, I personally don't think there's much difference
> > performance-wise between them and the old Stanleys. In some respects,
like
> > Stay-set irons, they were better.
> >
> > Stanley (UK, Old) - Never reached quite the heights as their US cousins,
> > dunno why, but still a good plane.
> >
> > Record (New). Not bad. I have a couple, but they don't seem to have
the
> > same amount of metal as the old ones, and they have nasty plastic
handles.
> > You can buy replacement wooden handles. They also need tuning.
> >
> > Note that I don't rate the new Stanleys at all. They're now pitching
> > themselves at the DIY market, rather than the serious woodworker.
> >
> > In compiling this list I've gone on personal experience - some of
which, I
> > admit, was limited to a quick clutch at a trade show - and tried not to
be
> > partisan. Some people may howl in protest that I haven't talked about
the
> > many excellent Swiss or German planes etc on the market, or some of the
> > better custom-makers This is only because I have no experience of them
and
> > so cannot judge. The list above is very subjective and is the outcome
of
> > one man's experience and research. YMMV.
> >
> > As regards source, well, eBay, flea markets, garage sales, car-boot
sales
> > and local auctions are caveat emptor. If you see one of the above at a
good
> > price, then snap it up. Be wary of any plane with cracks round the
mouth.
> > You can live with a little cupping (crosswise) or bowing (lengthwise) of
the
> > sole within a few thou, since you can flatten it out, but ignore any
plane
> > which has a twist to its sole - you'll need to remove so much metal to
> > straighten it that you won't have a viable plane. Chipped, cracked or
> > missing handles, knackered cutters or back-irons aren't an issue if
youre a
> > user, rather than a collector - you can easily replace them.
> >
> > HTH. Cheers,
> >
> > Frank.
> >
> >
> >
> > Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Should I just get one off of ebay?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
In article <[email protected]>, Rush <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Should I just get one off of ebay?
I've had decent luck off eBay. It's worth seeing if your library has a
copy of Garrett Hack's "The Handplane book"
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1561583170/qid=1067302330
/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-1874752-3101702?v=glance&n=507846> and give it a
read *before* you go a-buying, then pick a copy up for yourself later.
It's a great reference and I found it very helpful when I started
buying planes.
djb
--
There are no socks in my email address.
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
Subject: if i only buy one plane...what should it be
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:46:38 -0600
From: "Rush" <[email protected]>
Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Rush asked:
I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
Something for under $50 would be perfect
----------
You've gotten a lot of answers, many of which go way beyond the $50
limit. The unanswered questions are:
Do you own a grinder?
How are you set for sandpaper or whetstones?
Do you have any experience with sharpening, knives or anything else?
WHERE DO YOU LIVE - important because antiques are priced differently
indifferent places.
How big a person are you? A hand that's comfortable with a #6 may be
cramped on a block plane.
A well tuned bench plane can be used for many things a block plane is
often used for, a block or #4 just isn't big enough to do many of the
things a larger bench plane can. If you want to talk off-line, e-mail
me.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
[email protected] wrote:
> Subject: if i only buy one plane...what should it be
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:46:38 -0600
> From: "Rush" <[email protected]>
> Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net
> Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
>
> Rush asked:
> I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
> Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
> jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
> Something for under $50 would be perfect
> ----------
> You've gotten a lot of answers, many of which go way beyond the $50
> limit. The unanswered questions are:
> Do you own a grinder?
> How are you set for sandpaper or whetstones?
> Do you have any experience with sharpening, knives or anything else?
> WHERE DO YOU LIVE - important because antiques are priced differently
> indifferent places.
> How big a person are you? A hand that's comfortable with a #6 may be
> cramped on a block plane.
>
> A well tuned bench plane can be used for many things a block plane is
> often used for, a block or #4 just isn't big enough to do many of the
> things a larger bench plane can. If you want to talk off-line, e-mail
> me.
>
> Dave in Fairfax
You're got a lot of ideas for starter planes write down a list, check
the Thursday or Friday Papers for yard sales and Flea Markets, Get there
"EARLY" and pick some up. At yard sales you might find five or six
planes, at a Flea market 2 or 3 for your $50.
INSPECT CAREFULLY, but quickly, don't spend a lot of time at one table.
Don't buy anything that the metal is cracked or repaired. There are
enough good cheap planes out there.
Try this link for tactics on Flea Marketing
http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/survive.html
After you read it, at the bottom hit the "BACK TO GALOOT" link and
bookmaark the Home page.
Kevin
Frank, I don't understand why a longer plane doesn't smooth. Also, you
didn't mention Veritas planes. Any particular reason or do you not own
any of that brand? I'm thinking of getting a low angle block plane
soon... Thanks!
dave
Frank McVey wrote:
> Yes, why not? As previous posters have indicated, go for a #5, or even
> better still, a #5 1/2. Reason is that a plane does 2 things - it flattens
> a surface, and it makes it smooth. The shorter the plane, the more quickly
> it will smooth. The longer the plane, the better it will flatten. I would
> choose a #5 (long) over a #4 (short) because a #5 will smooth better than a
> #4 will flatten.
>
> As regards popular brands, my preference - if cost is no object - would be:
>
> Karl Holtey - the hand-made metal plane par excellence. You'd be looking at
> one of the A1 series of panel planes to equate to the #5 lengthwise. Simply
> outstanding in every respect, except for price, which is outrageous - you're
> talking in the several thousands of dollars rather than the mere hundreds.
> Only a very rich man or a high-earning craftsman at the peak of his craft
> would buy one.
>
> Lie-Nielsen - terrific quality, still expensive, but much more affordable
> than K-H
>
> Clifton - Great quality and about 1/2 the price of L-N, but much more than
> 1/2 the quality. Probably the best value for money in up-market planes,
> IMHO. You can also get thick Stay-set irons.
>
> Stanley (US, Old). Good workmanlike planes, which may need a little bit of
> attention and tuning.
>
> Record (UK, Old). Good workmanlike clones of Stanley, but, by consensus,
> not quite as good quality. Will need some tuning to get the best from them.
> Once tuned, I personally don't think there's much difference
> performance-wise between them and the old Stanleys. In some respects, like
> Stay-set irons, they were better.
>
> Stanley (UK, Old) - Never reached quite the heights as their US cousins,
> dunno why, but still a good plane.
>
> Record (New). Not bad. I have a couple, but they don't seem to have the
> same amount of metal as the old ones, and they have nasty plastic handles.
> You can buy replacement wooden handles. They also need tuning.
>
> Note that I don't rate the new Stanleys at all. They're now pitching
> themselves at the DIY market, rather than the serious woodworker.
>
> In compiling this list I've gone on personal experience - some of which, I
> admit, was limited to a quick clutch at a trade show - and tried not to be
> partisan. Some people may howl in protest that I haven't talked about the
> many excellent Swiss or German planes etc on the market, or some of the
> better custom-makers This is only because I have no experience of them and
> so cannot judge. The list above is very subjective and is the outcome of
> one man's experience and research. YMMV.
>
> As regards source, well, eBay, flea markets, garage sales, car-boot sales
> and local auctions are caveat emptor. If you see one of the above at a good
> price, then snap it up. Be wary of any plane with cracks round the mouth.
> You can live with a little cupping (crosswise) or bowing (lengthwise) of the
> sole within a few thou, since you can flatten it out, but ignore any plane
> which has a twist to its sole - you'll need to remove so much metal to
> straighten it that you won't have a viable plane. Chipped, cracked or
> missing handles, knackered cutters or back-irons aren't an issue if youre a
> user, rather than a collector - you can easily replace them.
>
> HTH. Cheers,
>
> Frank.
>
>
>
> Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Should I just get one off of ebay?
>>
>>
>
>
>
Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com> > wrote:
> > Since I got it, my 60-1/2 is my most-used plane
>B a r r y B u r k e J r . <[email protected]> schreef
> Agreed.
> I dropped the extra $10 and bought a new Veritas low angle block.
+ + +
I don't see it. I once bought the Stanley 220. Since I hated it, I upgraded
to a 220A (world of difference: pitched the 220). I forgot to buy a 60-1/2A
when it was available and later succumbed to a 60-1/2. I regretted it ever
since, this is not suitable even as a doorstop (anybody want one,
practically unused ;-)?). Cannot stand to see this compared to a Veritas low
angle block, which appears to be a pretty sweet thing.
If I'd buy only one plane and planned on doing something with it I'd go
looking for a #6. Nice heft to it (if my arms were shorter I might try a
#5?). Won't quarrel with a Veritas low angle block, but it is such a little
plane, many jobs will be too big for it.
PvR
B a r r y B u r k e J r . <[email protected]> schreef
> I'm shocked at the quality of edges I can get with the right stuff.
> I also have a continually hairless left wrist and forearm. <G>
+ + +
Don't do that! ;-)
Having an edge that you can shave with proves nothing.
A plane blade need to be quite a bit sharper than that.
PvR
On "P van Rijckevorsel" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Having an edge that you can shave with proves nothing.
> >A plane blade need to be quite a bit sharper than that.
> B a r r y B u r k e J r . <[email protected]>
schreef >
> I also keep a board in the vise, end grain up, while sharpening. The
> hair is step one. The wood is step two.
> I think the hair is more of a habit at this point.
+ + +
Fair enough, but remember that habits can be dangerous ...
(as well as disfiguring, in this case)
PvR
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
>
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > "Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> >>
> >>I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
> >>Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type
> >
> >
> > If I was to buy an "all purpose" plane, it would probably be a Cessna 172
> > with Nav I or a Piper Archer. I've always been partial to low wing planes.
> > Ed
> >
> >
> >
> I think the Cessna's are high wing planes! You probably want a nice
> Piper...
>
> Tim
>
>
I'm thinking a nice Lear 45. Or a Gulf-stream G-4.
Bannerstone <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Here's the thing Rush, if you're going to use hand planes you need a few, at
> least a #5, a #4 and a low angle block plane for end grain work.
>
> If you're schrewd you can get all 3 for around the $50 mark but you'll spend
> more time and effort getting up to speed with sharpening and tuning which are
> precursor skills. Look into scary sharp for an economical entry to sharepning.
> Rob Lee has a good book out on sharpening in general which I don't own but seems
> a worthwhile leg up for the money.
You may be a little late, but check out the garage/estate sales. I
bet you could pickup 5-10 planes for $50. Then, just do like the rest
of us and go to the library and check a sharpening/hand tool book out.
Each author has there own preference but most fettling tips are
similar. Once you learn the process, it's like riding a bike...
>
> If you're not really a hand plane person get a block plane and a belt sander.
>
> I think what you'll find is that most folks use hand planes because they're
> ejoyable to use and they dode over their plane more than any other tools in the
> shop. Why, well when you get that first crisp shaving to come through your well
> tuned plane it's a little like getting all of a good golf shot, which is to say
> that it's a bit addictive. :)
Totally addictive!!! Now the hand plane "it's really called a frog?"
phase. Next is the "sharpen everything in your shop, cut your hand
open, and use it more carefully" phase.
Used stanley #4 and block plane $10
Combination 800g/4000g stone $40
Learning fettling and the basics of sharpening from a book at the
library, priceless (pun intended)
For everything else there is a tool you can buy to make it easier
PS-Get your hands on a buffing setup with jewelers rouge as soon as
you can :-)
SS
B a r r y B u r k e J r . <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 29 Oct 2003 17:53:40 -0800, [email protected] (Sam Schmenk) wrote:
>
>
> >Used stanley #4 and block plane $10
> >Combination 800g/4000g stone $40
>
> How do you flatten the iron back?
>
> I was beating my head on the wall trying to flatten the backs of tool
> blades with water stones. I recently learned that water stones are
> usually not flat enough themselves to flatten a plane iron or wide
> chisel well.
>
> After putting together a Scary Sharp sandpaper on glass flattening
> setup, I'm getting much better results.
>
> My inexpensive <G> sharpening setup has grown to this:
>
> $150 for 250, 1000, 4000 grit Japanese water stones
> $100 for a Shapton 8000 grit stone
> $ 40 for a Shapton base / lapping plate
> $ 50 for (5) 1/4 sheet glass strips, 220-320-400-600-1200 wet dry
> sandpaper, and 3M 77 I attached the glass to MDF strips to protect
> the edges and allow the strips to be held with a vise and dogs.
>
> I do the backs on the sandpaper. The edges then go 1000-4000-8000 on
> the stones and the back gets a final pass on the 8000 to finish. I
> usually don't have to ever touch the back again, except for that last
> 8000 pass.
>
> For scrapers, I added:
> $160 for (2) double sided DMT diamond plates (for lapping scraper
> edges which will quickly destroy a soft water stone surface) DAMHIKT
> $100 for a Veritas file jointer fence, burnishing tool, angle gauge,
> and sharpening guide
> $ 10 for a good new large mill file
> A jointer push block (for lapping scraper sides)
> A 2x2 hardwood block with 2 faces jointed a perfect 90 degrees (for
> lapping the scraper edge).
>
> I also picked up a grinder and a Veritas grinder rest for renewing
> hollow grinds.
>
> I'm shocked at the quality of edges I can get with the right stuff.
> I also have a continually hairless left wrist and forearm. <G> You
> could do all of it with sandpaper, but I find it quicker and easier to
> use other stuff for tasks like scraper edges.
>
> Barry
Barry,
We are your friends. We want the best for you. We want you to be
happy. However, we notice you have some "issues" with sharpening
things. You may suffer from SAD. Sharpening Aquisition Disorder.
When was the last time you had hair on on your hand? Is your wife
afraid to use her kitchen knives because she knows you sharpen them?
Do you drool at the thought of a 16,000 grit water stone? ;)
I am totally envious of your setup! I'm a hobbyist with a some
success in sharpening irons and chisels. I understand your concern
with water stones not being flat. For my purposes, the stone works
good. If I were a pro, I'm sure it would be different.
BTW - with as much success you have with sharpening scrapers, do you
ever use sandpaper on the flat surfaces of your projects?
SS
"Lawrence A. Ramsey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
...
> Gee, are they much over his $50 limit?
Not by much. I rent an Aztec for $60/hour.
The Lear is probably a budget buster though.
Ed
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:27:08 +0100, "P van Rijckevorsel"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Won't quarrel with a Veritas low angle block, but it is such a little
>plane, many jobs will be too big for it.
Agreed.
I was simply commenting on buying / tuning / upgrading an eBay
low-angle block vs. a Veritas.
Barry
Block plane.
"Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
> Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
> jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
>
> Something for under $50 would be perfect
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
Kind of depends on what you want to do, but the #5 was the "jack" o' all
trades. Lucky for you they are the cheapest and most available. Probably
has a lot to do with past generations also needing a "good all-purpose
plane".
--
Bill Pounds
http://www.bill.pounds.net/woodshop
"Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
> Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
> jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
>
> Something for under $50 would be perfect
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
Shot it down before it ever took off. There is no such thing as a new
GREAT plane. Heck, even a beat up Bedrock is $100 up.I can take a
cheap plane, a Ron Hock iron, a set of waterstones and you would love
it. Maybe you could lower your sights. MAybe you won't use it much so
you just need a cheap used one.
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:46:38 -0600, "Rush" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
>Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
>jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
>
>Something for under $50 would be perfect
>
>Thanks
>
>
>
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:46:38 -0600, "Rush" <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:
>
>
>I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
>Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
>jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
>
>Something for under $50 would be perfect
For $50, and if you're patient, you might find both a #60-1/2
and a #4 or 5 Stanley on *b*y. Since I got it, my 60-1/2 is
my most-used plane, followed by the Knight smoother.
On 28-Oct-2003, [email protected] wrote:
> Do you own a grinder?
> How are you set for sandpaper or whetstones?
> Do you have any experience with sharpening, knives or anything else?
I suppose if you're set up, you could get a plane for about $50
by buying a decent blade and making a wooden plane body. About
half the money will get the blade, most of the rest for the book
on making wooden planes and some wood.
Mike
Hi Barry,
I have one Clifton plane and two Veritas planes (no Lie-Nielsen yet), and
although I really like my Veritas tools, I think Clifton is by FAR a better
quality plane than the Veritas ones. I'm not giving my Veritas ones away,
mind you, but when you do a side by side comparison it becomes clear. One
caveat is that they aren't the same types of planes. I know I've seen a
review of bench planes that included these three brands and some others, I
just don't know exactly where I saw it. maybe woodcentral.
Mike
"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:54:30 +0000 (UTC), "Frank McVey"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Lie-Nielsen - terrific quality, still expensive, but much more affordable
> >than K-H
> >
> >Clifton - Great quality and about 1/2 the price of L-N, but much more
than
> >1/2 the quality. Probably the best value for money in up-market planes,
> >IMHO. You can also get thick Stay-set irons.
>
>
> I'd stick Veritas right in between these two.
>
> Barry
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>
>>I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
>>Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type
>
>
> If I was to buy an "all purpose" plane, it would probably be a Cessna 172
> with Nav I or a Piper Archer. I've always been partial to low wing planes.
> Ed
>
>
>
I think the Cessna's are high wing planes! You probably want a nice
Piper...
Tim
Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Frank, I don't understand why a longer plane doesn't smooth.
It will - it just takes a lot longer, because you have to get the
surface both perfectly flat _and_ smooth. With the shorter plane,
you can smooth a hollowish area without having to bring the rest
of the surface down to the same level (note that by "hollowish"
I'm speaking in terms of a plane shaving thickness or so - a
scarcely perceptible hollow).
John
"Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> Should I just get one off of ebay?
If you're not familiar with planes, I'd suggest buying from one of
the dealers - Pat Leach or Tom Bruce or one of those folks. That
way you'll at least be sure someone knowledgable has looked at
the plane & verified all the pieces are there, etc.
Patrick Leach is at www.supertool.com
Tom Bruce is at http://www.mindspring.com/%7Etrbruce/toolhut/catalog.html
You could email either with your question and I'm sure they'd
have suggestions & advice.
John
Hitch <[email protected]> wrote in news:bnm72l$12rr9e$1@ID-
211916.news.uni-berlin.de:
> Rush wrote:
>
>> I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
>> Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
>> jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
>>
>> Something for under $50 would be perfect
>>
>> Thanks
> Not under $50, but I'd get the Lie-Nielsen 10-1/4 or an old Stanley No.
> 10-1/4 "Jack Rabbet". It isn't small like a block plane, but you can
> smooth, joint, AND rabbet!
No! Very bad advice here. The 10-1/4 is a rather odd plane, and
a bit of a pain to use. Plus, Stanley 10-1/4 are rare and collectable
(and expensive).
Now, if you ran into a plain ordinary #10 Jack Rabbet, it might not
be a bad choice (being careful that the bed isn't cracked). But
the 10-1/4, with the tilting handles, isn't something a newbie
plane user would want.
John
Gee, are they much over his $50 limit?
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 05:14:27 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>>
>>
>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> > "Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >
>> >>
>> >>I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
>> >>Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type
>> >
>> >
>> > If I was to buy an "all purpose" plane, it would probably be a Cessna 172
>> > with Nav I or a Piper Archer. I've always been partial to low wing planes.
>> > Ed
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> I think the Cessna's are high wing planes! You probably want a nice
>> Piper...
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>
> I'm thinking a nice Lear 45. Or a Gulf-stream G-4.
Yes, why not? As previous posters have indicated, go for a #5, or even
better still, a #5 1/2. Reason is that a plane does 2 things - it flattens
a surface, and it makes it smooth. The shorter the plane, the more quickly
it will smooth. The longer the plane, the better it will flatten. I would
choose a #5 (long) over a #4 (short) because a #5 will smooth better than a
#4 will flatten.
As regards popular brands, my preference - if cost is no object - would be:
Karl Holtey - the hand-made metal plane par excellence. You'd be looking at
one of the A1 series of panel planes to equate to the #5 lengthwise. Simply
outstanding in every respect, except for price, which is outrageous - you're
talking in the several thousands of dollars rather than the mere hundreds.
Only a very rich man or a high-earning craftsman at the peak of his craft
would buy one.
Lie-Nielsen - terrific quality, still expensive, but much more affordable
than K-H
Clifton - Great quality and about 1/2 the price of L-N, but much more than
1/2 the quality. Probably the best value for money in up-market planes,
IMHO. You can also get thick Stay-set irons.
Stanley (US, Old). Good workmanlike planes, which may need a little bit of
attention and tuning.
Record (UK, Old). Good workmanlike clones of Stanley, but, by consensus,
not quite as good quality. Will need some tuning to get the best from them.
Once tuned, I personally don't think there's much difference
performance-wise between them and the old Stanleys. In some respects, like
Stay-set irons, they were better.
Stanley (UK, Old) - Never reached quite the heights as their US cousins,
dunno why, but still a good plane.
Record (New). Not bad. I have a couple, but they don't seem to have the
same amount of metal as the old ones, and they have nasty plastic handles.
You can buy replacement wooden handles. They also need tuning.
Note that I don't rate the new Stanleys at all. They're now pitching
themselves at the DIY market, rather than the serious woodworker.
In compiling this list I've gone on personal experience - some of which, I
admit, was limited to a quick clutch at a trade show - and tried not to be
partisan. Some people may howl in protest that I haven't talked about the
many excellent Swiss or German planes etc on the market, or some of the
better custom-makers This is only because I have no experience of them and
so cannot judge. The list above is very subjective and is the outcome of
one man's experience and research. YMMV.
As regards source, well, eBay, flea markets, garage sales, car-boot sales
and local auctions are caveat emptor. If you see one of the above at a good
price, then snap it up. Be wary of any plane with cracks round the mouth.
You can live with a little cupping (crosswise) or bowing (lengthwise) of the
sole within a few thou, since you can flatten it out, but ignore any plane
which has a twist to its sole - you'll need to remove so much metal to
straighten it that you won't have a viable plane. Chipped, cracked or
missing handles, knackered cutters or back-irons aren't an issue if youre a
user, rather than a collector - you can easily replace them.
HTH. Cheers,
Frank.
Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Should I just get one off of ebay?
>
>
Rush wrote:
> I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
> Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
> jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
>
> Something for under $50 would be perfect
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
Not under $50, but I'd get the Lie-Nielsen 10-1/4 or an old Stanley No.
10-1/4 "Jack Rabbet". It isn't small like a block plane, but you can
smooth, joint, AND rabbet!
--
Hitch
-Remove the NOSPAM from my address and you've got SPAM!-
Spot on John. If you consider the surface of your wood to be a series of
miniscule hills and valleys, a long plane will bridge the valleys and only
ride on the tops of the hills. It will not smooth the valleys until the
hills have been levelled. Ashort plane will tend to follow the terrain
better and smooth the hills and valleys at the same time.
Given a perfectly flat surface to start with in the first place, both long
and short planes will smooth equally well.
Cheers
Frank
"John McCoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Frank, I don't understand why a longer plane doesn't smooth.
>
> It will - it just takes a lot longer, because you have to get the
> surface both perfectly flat _and_ smooth. With the shorter plane,
> you can smooth a hollowish area without having to bring the rest
> of the surface down to the same level (note that by "hollowish"
> I'm speaking in terms of a plane shaving thickness or so - a
> scarcely perceptible hollow).
>
> John
Here's the thing Rush, if you're going to use hand planes you need a few, at
least a #5, a #4 and a low angle block plane for end grain work.
If you're schrewd you can get all 3 for around the $50 mark but you'll spend
more time and effort getting up to speed with sharpening and tuning which are
precursor skills. Look into scary sharp for an economical entry to sharepning.
Rob Lee has a good book out on sharpening in general which I don't own but seems
a worthwhile leg up for the money.
If you're not really a hand plane person get a block plane and a belt sander.
I think what you'll find is that most folks use hand planes because they're
ejoyable to use and they dode over their plane more than any other tools in the
shop. Why, well when you get that first crisp shaving to come through your well
tuned plane it's a little like getting all of a good golf shot, which is to say
that it's a bit addictive. :)
Good Luck
David
In article <[email protected]>, Rush says...
>
>
>
>I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
>Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
>jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
>
>Something for under $50 would be perfect
>
>Thanks
>
>
>
>
Yes, but that's not within his budget!
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>
>>I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
>>Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type
>
>
> If I was to buy an "all purpose" plane, it would probably be a Cessna 172
> with Nav I or a Piper Archer. I've always been partial to low wing planes.
> Ed
>
>
>
--
James T. Kirby
Center for Applied Coastal Research
University of Delaware
Newark, DE 19716
phone: 302-831-2438
fax: 302-831-1228
email: [email protected]
http://chinacat.coastal.udel.edu/~kirby
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:46:38 -0600, "Rush" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
>Something for under $50 would be perfect
A decent sharpening stone and eBay ?
There's no one all-purpose plane. But the nearest you're likely to get
is a #5 and a block plane, preferably low angle. Old is good.
Ignore #4s. They grow on trees and they'll start popping up of their
own account before too long.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
> My inexpensive <G> sharpening setup has grown to this:
I'll share mine too. It's an ultra cheap, ultra space saving method.
I have a stack of 1/3 sheet sandpaper. Instead of glass, I have a chunk of
granite counter backstop a bit longer than a sheet. I clamp this into my
little front vise, then clamp a sheet at a time onto the thing. For most
grits I can get away with just clamping one side. For some I have to put
tension on the paper and clamp both ends, which I accomplish with a couple
chunks of angle iron and some quick-grip clamps.
I gravitated toward the clamp method because I didn't have enough chunks of
granite just the right size, because I find it's a real bitch to change
paper, and because I wear out paper so frequently.
I run through 60, 100, 150, 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 for
the backs, and if I'm putting an edge on for the first time. For touchups
I'll start at 600, and if that isn't doing any good, I'll go down as far as
I have to in order to get aggressive enough to do the job.
I use more 60 grit than anything 20:1, and I'm coming to the conclusion that
I *must* get a good wheel and a proper tool rest for my grinder. Changing
the angle of something with sandpaper SUCKS!!!
I'd like to eventually have one chunk of granite per grit, and rig some way
to hold them all down. Sharpening an entire set of chisels at the same
time is tedious. Set the angle, swap paper 12 times, set the angle, swap
paper 12 times....
Anyway, it works. My stuff is all very shiny, and verrry sharp. For
awhile. I'm finding my scary sharp edges dull very quickly, and I'm
beginning to experiment with less time-consuming, less-sharp methods. No
point getting it ultra sharp if it's only good for three cuts before it has
to be honed again. (Probably I need steeper, sturdier angles or something.
I'm experimenting, which is why I'm eating up so much 60 grit, and so many
hours spent sliding things back and forth.)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Rush wrote:
> I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
> Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
> jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
I'm pretty new to planes...and also on a tight budget. So I'll offer
what I've done...which has worked well for me. None of this is high-end
stuff -- but has done the job quite well for me.
First, you didn't say if you had a separate budget for sharpening supplies
or for education (books)...you'll need both.
1. Lee's "Complete Guide To Sharpening" $16 +shipping - amazon
2. double-sided rough stone (~100/250 grit) $4 - harbor freight
3. King combination stone (1000/6000) $22 (sale) - woodcraft.com
4. chisel/plane sharpening guide $7 - woodcraft
Lets see....that's $49 in supplies, so I guess I won't make your
budget...it's hard to imagine getting buy any cheaper than that -
even sandpaper-based sharpening will get you close to $20, once
you buy 4 grits. You could skip the book and find good sharpening
info online.
As for the plane itself - I've picked up some good deals on eBay by
getting 'package' deals. Many buyers don't want to pick up something
they already have, so they avoid these auctions. I got three Stanley
block planes for $39 (9 1/4, 9 1/2 and 60 1/2) -- all in good working
order.
Depending on your time schedule, you might be able to get a small
block plane and a smoother (#4) for well under $50 -- which would
be my recommendation. This, of course depends on what you intend
to use planes for. I use the #4 to prepare the surface of my
stock (usually after I've planed it by machine) -- as a replacement
for sanding. I use the block planes for cleaning up joints, fitting
miters and cleaning up the surface of more difficult wood or small
areas. And rounding/beveling corners, of course.
As a beginner, I see no reason to go with a high-end tool...the
middle-of-the-road stanleys work well for most tasks - and you'll
feel better learning to sharpen on your eBay special than on a
shiny new $120 LN.
good luck!
--
************************************
Chris Merrill
[email protected]
(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************
On 30 Oct 2003 18:18:01 -0800, [email protected] (Sam Schmenk) wrote:
>When was the last time you had hair on on your hand?
It has been a while...
>Do you drool at the thought of a 16,000 grit water stone? ;)
Shapton makes a "competition" 30,000 grit stone! <G>
Check out the bottom of:
<http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/Professional-Series.php>
>BTW - with as much success you have with sharpening scrapers, do you
>ever use sandpaper on the flat surfaces of your projects?
Only to cut finishes, as in 320-400 grit. FWIW, I now have CURVED
scrapers! I will NEVER sand wood again now that I've learned how to
correctly scrape, and of, course, sharpen the darn thing.
Scraping, including sharpening, is faster, easier and cheaper than
sanding, once you get the hang of it. No changing grits, no
wondering if the sandpaper is worn, and no buying sandpaper! Not to
mention the side effect of _crystal clear_ figure, with no scratch
marks.
Barry
On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 08:58:19 +0100, "P van Rijckevorsel"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Having an edge that you can shave with proves nothing.
>A plane blade need to be quite a bit sharper than that.
I also keep a board in the vise, end grain up, while sharpening. The
hair is step one. The wood is step two.
I think the hair is more of a habit at this point.
Barry
Rush wrote:
> I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
> Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
> jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
>
> Something for under $50 would be perfect
If I had it all to do over again, I'd get a #5.
I only own one plane, and it's a #4. I just used it to turn a 6' walnut
board into a box to hold checkers, and a frame for the board. Only eight
small pieces of lumber for the project, really, and it's sort of depressing
when I dwell on how much time I spent getting those eight small pieces of
lumber ready to use.
I did it though, with nothing but a #4. I jointed one edge of the board
enough to get a reasonable first rough crosscut, then I jointed the the
resulting two boards to very near perfection (cheating by using a
shop-built jointing fence I rigged up out of angle iron I had on-hand.)
Cut one of them again, yielding three boards. Then I cut two of the boards
into four smaller boards each, and thickness planed them all. I should
have thicknessed the two boards while they were still one piece,
incidentally, as it was a bitch to get both sets of four to the same
dimensions individually.
After it was all assembled, I used the plane to smooth the wood. I never
did get all the chatter marks and other gotchas out of it, but I'm
learning, and it looks pretty decent. All in all, I had to re-sharpen the
plane iron at least four times.
Again, I would get a #5, but if you want to follow in my footsteps, here's
how the cost breaks down:
Veritas angle jig: $40 (shipped)
chunk of granite: $ 0
sandpaper(*) $25
new Stanley #4 $40
That's about $105 to get your foot in the door. You could maybe go cheaper
with some inexpensive stone for sharpening, but sandpaper is seriously less
expensive than a good set of stones, and it does work beautifully.
Once you get the necessary equipment for sharpening (a copy of Leonard Lee's
"The Complete Guide to Sharpening" is very helpful too) the price of the
next plane is much more reasonable.
Except there aren't any other $40 planes. Not new ones anyway. You can try
your luck with eBay, but I've been hunting for a cheap, winnable plane on
eBay off and on for a good bit, and I haven't taken one home yet. People
keep upping the ante out of my budget.
(*) 60, 100, 150, 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 grits
Anyway, I'm just getting started with this stuff, and I offer my account in
that light. I'm no expert. Just someone taking his first baby steps, and
really enjoying the hell out of it.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:54:30 +0000 (UTC), "Frank McVey"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Lie-Nielsen - terrific quality, still expensive, but much more affordable
>than K-H
>
>Clifton - Great quality and about 1/2 the price of L-N, but much more than
>1/2 the quality. Probably the best value for money in up-market planes,
>IMHO. You can also get thick Stay-set irons.
I'd stick Veritas right in between these two.
Barry
"Rush" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>
> I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
> Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type
If I was to buy an "all purpose" plane, it would probably be a Cessna 172
with Nav I or a Piper Archer. I've always been partial to low wing planes.
Ed
> I'm a newbie with a miniscule budget who needs a good all-purpose plane.
> Yes I know that no such things exists, but if it did, what type (smooth,
> jack, bench, jointer)and brand would it be?
If only for general use (i.e. you don't plan on planing all your stock from
'scratch'), go find a nice used Stanley no.4 smoothing plane.
See: http://www.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/stanref-num.html
On 29 Oct 2003 17:53:40 -0800, [email protected] (Sam Schmenk) wrote:
>Used stanley #4 and block plane $10
>Combination 800g/4000g stone $40
How do you flatten the iron back?
I was beating my head on the wall trying to flatten the backs of tool
blades with water stones. I recently learned that water stones are
usually not flat enough themselves to flatten a plane iron or wide
chisel well.
After putting together a Scary Sharp sandpaper on glass flattening
setup, I'm getting much better results.
My inexpensive <G> sharpening setup has grown to this:
$150 for 250, 1000, 4000 grit Japanese water stones
$100 for a Shapton 8000 grit stone
$ 40 for a Shapton base / lapping plate
$ 50 for (5) 1/4 sheet glass strips, 220-320-400-600-1200 wet dry
sandpaper, and 3M 77 I attached the glass to MDF strips to protect
the edges and allow the strips to be held with a vise and dogs.
I do the backs on the sandpaper. The edges then go 1000-4000-8000 on
the stones and the back gets a final pass on the 8000 to finish. I
usually don't have to ever touch the back again, except for that last
8000 pass.
For scrapers, I added:
$160 for (2) double sided DMT diamond plates (for lapping scraper
edges which will quickly destroy a soft water stone surface) DAMHIKT
$100 for a Veritas file jointer fence, burnishing tool, angle gauge,
and sharpening guide
$ 10 for a good new large mill file
A jointer push block (for lapping scraper sides)
A 2x2 hardwood block with 2 faces jointed a perfect 90 degrees (for
lapping the scraper edge).
I also picked up a grinder and a Veritas grinder rest for renewing
hollow grinds.
I'm shocked at the quality of edges I can get with the right stuff.
I also have a continually hairless left wrist and forearm. <G> You
could do all of it with sandpaper, but I find it quicker and easier to
use other stuff for tasks like scraper edges.
Barry
Yes. What do you want for it?
"P van Rijckevorsel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
(anybody want one,
> practically unused ;-)?).